From Iran to Uber CEO | Nikhil Kamath x Dara Khosrowshahi | People by WTF | Ep. 14

Wow, that looks very dead.

and the background. You had a good you had a good day here.

>> It's hot though, right?

>> It's typical >> SF weather.

>> Ah, >> yesterday was super super cold. I

haven't been outside so I didn't know it was hot today.

>> You live here?

>> No, New York now.

>> Oh, >> I moved to New York recently sadly. I

like it here more. But

>> really >> parents are in New York. So, I wanted to They're getting older.

>> New York seems like a lot more fun.

>> The city is more fun, >> but I SF is beautiful.

>> Where are you based?

>> Based out of India.

>> Okay. Where? I live between Bangalore, Mumbai and Goa in India.

>> Okay.

>> Have you been recently?

>> Uh I go once a year. I don't remember. I

I was there earlier this year. Yeah. But

>> like it >> at least.

>> Yeah. It's so like it's just the energy is incredible and the teams you know we got and I think it's Hyderabad and Bangalore. We got teams there and

Bangalore. We got teams there and >> it's just a like a group who is super excited. The energy you get out of the

excited. The energy you get out of the teams when you go visit them is it's pretty awesome. I like it a lot.

pretty awesome. I like it a lot.

>> What's happening in India D with I know your main competition is Ola who's also a really good friend of mine.

>> Yes.

>> We live in the same city.

>> Yes. Well, have we officially started?

>> Yeah.

>> All right. Good. Okay. Um

Ola used to be our main competition.

>> Mhm. Uh and

you know we were always going head-to-head with Ola in terms of the category position in the marketplace.

They were the local competitor. I think

we had the better global tech etc. But they were always scrappy.

>> Um I think he got uh somewhat distracted by other interesting areas uh for him. So I say

now the the the tougher competition in India is >> Rapido.

>> You know they're the upstart.

>> They got into two wheelers and three-wheelers really aggressively super simple model just kind of this subscription zero commission model very

scrappy as well and they have gained a good amount of category position. I

think Ola is now kind of a distant third. Mhm.

third. Mhm.

>> They're trying to get into four-wheelers now. So we when we talk about India,

now. So we when we talk about India, other than the talent that we have there and building there and really building out our talent base, but when we when we talk about the business in India and it's the third largest country in terms

of mobility trips, so India is really important to us, the competition that we talk about is really rapid. And

>> what do you think Rapido is getting right that the others are not? Um you

I'm not on the ground but I think Rapido uh built a really simple model which is basically you know the subscription model you pay a certain amount and for the rest of the day you operate on

what's essentially zero commission >> right >> uh and once you pay the subscription then because Rapido's essentially taking

a zero commission >> Mhm. then the the driver pay is higher

>> Mhm. then the the driver pay is higher than a player than a player who like us who's taking a commission on every trip.

So I think that was a smart way for them to break into the marketplace. Rapido is

not making money. So the real test of the business isn't how fast you can grow if you're spending. Um it's actually how fast you can grow while you're profitable. And I think Rapido is a long

profitable. And I think Rapido is a long way away from that. But they've been innovative. They've been scrappy. They

innovative. They've been scrappy. They

move fast. Um, it's a it's a they're they're building their brand there in the local market. So, we've got a lot of respect for them. Uh, and you know, we

intend to compete really hard with them.

>> Nice. So, Dra, this podcast that we do is largely focused around young wannabe entrepreneurs in India.

>> Mhm. and the spaces that you operate in uh be it mobility delivery uh may I also say autonomous vehicles electric vehicles

>> these are taking up significant mind share in the dialogue that's happening back home >> uh so at the end of today if I can

arrive at some takeaways that one could use in India to build around any of these sectors will be incredible But maybe we start with you the individual

and you give us a few minutes on where you began and how you arrived to where you are today.

>> Yeah, absolutely. So I was uh born in Iran.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh and during when I was born in Iran, the shaver was really trying to modernize Iran very quickly. And I was part I was

very lucky to be a part of a family that >> was part of the industrialization of of Iran. There's a

Iran. There's a our family ran a group Albor's group and then within it manufacturing companies like Tli Daru which uh were

manufacturing we licensed pharmaceuticals from the west and then manufacture them in Iran and then distribute them in Iran and the and the Middle East. It was a big business. We

Middle East. It was a big business. We

were very well-known family. My my

father was in charge of building out all the factories and our family was raised with assumption that we would then step into the family business and and and keep growing and it was a really exciting time. Can

exciting time. Can >> I digress and ask a question?

>> Whenever I read about Iran's history, >> when I talk to the young folk, the shast time seems to have been this great time.

What happened? Why did it change? Why

did the regime change? Well, I think it was a great time for uh people who were lucky enough to participate in the modernization of Iran. The fact

>> was it like crony capitalism?

>> I don't I don't know enough, but I think that to some extent in hindsight, in hindsight's 2020, I think that Shaw tried to monize too quickly.

>> Mhm.

>> I think that he was too focused on building out military power. So in terms of the growth of GDP in Iran, a significant amount went to establishing

Iran as the power center of the Middle East or the military power center of the Middle East versus the industrial power center of the Middle East. Uh and I

think he didn't bring along the outskirts, the people who lived in smaller cities, etc. Mhm.

>> And part of his modernization left Islam behind. Uh and Iran as a culture is much more ancient than Islam.

>> Mhm.

>> But Islam is part of the society as well. And so his moving too fast, his

well. And so his moving too fast, his focusing on military power versus his people, his focus on kind of the big cities versus everybody.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh, you know, rhymes with maybe things that have happened here, uh, created a movement and an opportunity for the Islamic regime to come in.

>> So people tend to romanticize the past.

Now, do I think that the time under the sha was a better time? Absolutely. I

think what's happened with the Islamic regime um you know there's a regime that isn't uh I think doing the Iranian people right

>> uh and cares about things other than the um the benefit of the people there and I and I think that's it's disappointing um and it's been there for

too long in my opinion but you know every time has good and it's bad and unfortunately the sha wasn't able to follow through on

a movement that had a lot of promise and I think the the biggest promise in my estimation was was the value of

education uh and women went to college etc. The number of women graduates in Iran actually is higher than than the number of men graduates. So there were a lot of seeds planted there that had a

lot of promise and hopefully hopefully Iran can get out of I think now its obsession with Islam and think more about its people uh and building out for

the good of the people in concert with Islam but not subjugated to Islam. Does

it get in the way in any way today? The

fact that your origins are there while the countries where you live today and that might be in conflict.

>> Not not a conflict in my life. Um, you

know, there's a sadness and leaving your home country. I mean, my country is now

home country. I mean, my country is now the United States and we got to rebuild in the US and I'm so thankful for it.

But would I love to go back? I would. uh

but to some extent the the culture of Iran matches the western culture. It's a

group of people who want to build. It's

a group of people who value education, who are ambitious.

Um so I don't find it a conflict with who I am now. But there's a part of me that I feel is incomplete and will be incomplete if I never am able to go back to Iran.

>> I have Iranian friends who live in India now.

>> Yes. And most of them mimic your emotion in thinking that here's a land that had so much opportunity.

>> Incredible.

>> But just religion seems to have caused so much harm than good in that particular geography.

>> And and it doesn't have to. There there

are many things about religion that are beautiful. But

beautiful. But >> um again, I think what's happened in Iran is uh it's really unfair to the people there. Are you religious, Dar?

people there. Are you religious, Dar?

>> I'm not religious. I'd say I'm spiritual right?

>> Uh but I'm not religious. I, you know, I I I believe in the power of humanity.

And I think religion uh is plays to what makes us human and the relationships between us and the deep

deep good in all of us >> and uh I think it's it's beautiful. you

know, religions, the stories, >> uh, the beliefs are are beautiful. And

so I describe myself more as spiritual, but for me, my belief is in the good of humanity.

>> At the very core, do you think that is what religion is? Stories, great

stories.

>> I think yeah. Um, you know, if you if if you kind of go through the there's an intellectual exercise I I heard which is if if all of our memory was wiped out

>> Yeah.

>> and you rebuilt religions on Earth, there's a high probability that the nature of those religions and the stories would be different. If you

rebuilt science, the science will come out the same.

And so I do think that there are deep truths there are deep human truths to uh to religion and those deep truths are unchanging

but each religion are definitely different ways of getting to those similar deep truths.

>> What is spirituality to you? A lot of people ask me if I'm spiritual and >> I'm like what is it? I'm trying to figure out what the word even means to begin with. I think it's a great

begin with. I think it's a great question. Uh for me, what spirituality

question. Uh for me, what spirituality means to me is a belief in the goodness of humanity, a belief in, you know, you and I >> have

so little in common in terms of where we came from >> and maybe our uh stories, but so much in common. We've sat together in five

common. We've sat together in five minutes and there's a connection there.

>> Mhm. Uh, and I don't think that connection is because of a logical construct that I'm here to speak to you on a podcast that are, you know, like I'm not faking it.

>> Mhm.

>> Right. There's a connection that we're establishing now having this discussion.

That to me is a spiritual connection.

It's not a logical construct. You know,

you're not being nice to me because you think you have to be and vice versa.

>> Um, instantly you have that rapport. And

sometimes, by the way, you don't with some certain people.

>> That comes from a spiritual side.

>> And that spirit can be uh captured for good >> and it can be captured for evil as well.

>> So, in a way, we're all connected somehow like trees and roots.

>> Uh, you know, literally, I don't know, but yes, I do think there's a deeper connection >> um within humanity. And listen, there's there are some people who attribute that

to perfectly logical causes, right? the

love that you have. Do you have family?

Do you have brothers and sisters?

>> Yeah.

>> You know, there are certain people who would say that your um what do you have?

>> Brother.

>> Yeah. Your love for your brother is based on the genetic similarity of you two.

>> So, it's actually while you may ascertain that to a deep love that you have for family, it's actually purely logically based on your existence as a

bunch of genes who wants to continue those genes. and your brother has a

those genes. and your brother has a genetic makeup that's quite similar to you. So what you view as familial love

you. So what you view as familial love is actually adaptation that is feeding you that familial love. There is a logical explanation to all this. I kind

of choose to acknowledge that >> but I view that the outcome of that is spirituality. Now it may be based on

spirituality. Now it may be based on genetic logic between all of us but I think that outcome is um beautiful and I'd rather keep it at the spiritual

level versus say oh it's all it's just us being um gene machines that are trying to uh continue our genes indefinitely

>> would make a case for liking people who are genetically similar to us as well >> because we similar genes >> appropriate. Yeah, absolutely. I I feel

>> appropriate. Yeah, absolutely. I I feel a connection to Iran, a deep connection to Iran. Why?

to Iran. Why?

>> Um I came here when I was 9 years old.

We're now back at history, right?

>> Uh and I >> I have to say one thing. Uh I was in your old office yesterday.

>> Yes.

>> And Alan and Co. I was meeting >> somebody for something >> and you know Bob Kerry.

>> Uh yes, I've met him. I don't know Bob very well, but I've met him.

>> Yeah. So they were telling me you should ask D. And I said I'm meeting you the

ask D. And I said I'm meeting you the next day.

And they were telling me you should ask DH when he used to be here. He used to say he doesn't believe in globalization.

Is that because genes away from one geography become too far. Boy, that was Bob's takeaway from I don't even remember that. I don't if I was trying to like upset him or

something like that. I don't believe in globalization.

I don't know what that means or I don't know what I meant at the time. But I do think that, you know, again, you could the that that connection I have with

Iran, I believe is a spiritual connection. I don't know where it comes

connection. I don't know where it comes from >> because I'm so American, right? I've

I've lived uh the vast majority of my life um as an American. I've been

incredibly lucky to be here, but there's a part of me that feels empty if I don't go back. Uh and you know that's probably a spiritual connection.

Again you could put a genetic underlying cause to it but I like the story of that being spirituality more.

>> I get that. I think I feel that in India strongly.

>> Yeah.

>> So nine year nine you move here.

>> Yeah. So we had uh the Iranian the revolution happened the Islamic revolution happened.

um little story which is uh we we were intending to stay at one point but then I think the the house across the street from us was related to the Shawam house.

So some revolutionary guards jumped wanted to go attack that house and they jumped over went through our uh garden um I think their guns went off so shots

went off so bullets came through our house and at that point my mom said we're getting out of here.

>> Wow. Uh, so we went to the south of France. We were a wealthy family. We had

France. We were a wealthy family. We had

a place there. And really the intent was to go to to the south of France until things calmed down.

>> Mhm.

>> Well, things never calmed down.

>> Uh, we happened to have an uncle who's still alive now. He's 101 years old.

Uncle Nasola who uh lived in the US. He

married a Faith um a uh an American woman, wonderful, wonderful uh auntie.

And so we came to the US to stay with them. And then we knew we could never go

them. And then we knew we could never go back.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh and we started a life here. So I've

been in the US ever since I was 9 years old.

>> Iranians are quite wealthy. Whenever I

go to I realize this when I go to Beverly Hills and everybody's Iranian.

Why is that?

>> Well, I think the Iranians who were wealthy got to go got to leave.

Uh and you know Iranians there were pretty entrepreneurial culture and a lot of Iranians invested in real estate. You

know we came here in the uh late 1970s ' 80s and it was a good time to come to America and establish yourself and get into business in the US. Uh and my family did the same. My family did the

same. But the it it was really for the

same. But the it it was really for the kids. I was only 9 years old. I I think

kids. I was only 9 years old. I I think children are able to adjust to change much more readily.

>> You know, for us, like America was this magic uh country where I went from like three channels in Iran to 35 channels cable.

>> I couldn't understand the language very well. But we adjusted really well and

well. But we adjusted really well and and we always had our family around us.

>> But it was much harder for my parents.

You know, my my father his whole life was business >> and he he took a shot at some entrepreneurial businesses. they didn't

entrepreneurial businesses. they didn't work out very well and without work he kind of um didn't have a a cause in his

life. Um he went back to Iran cuz his

life. Um he went back to Iran cuz his father was dying. So I didn't see him I think between the ages of 13 and 19 cuz they wouldn't let him out of the country

for those six years. Um and my mom who lived a life of absolute luxury had to go back to work. She worked as a salesperson.

uh at Nordstrom Seline and you know it it was a very very difficult adjustment for them but for the kids we always had family we got to go to private school

and we got to have the kind of education that then afforded us the opportunities that we've taken advantage of of since >> so you started school here where in America

>> uh in Westchester County New York about uh an hour of New York at a wonderful school called Hackley School >> and then I went to uh Brown university and studied engineering at Brown

University. Uh, and then I was going to

University. Uh, and then I was going to an engineering management program and I met a commodity trader, a woman in New York City who I completely fell in love

with and I had to find a job in New York City and the only jobs available in New York City were investment banking jobs and so that's how I got to Allen and Company that you just talked about

>> and I worked at Allen and Company for I think it was like eight years or so.

>> Mhm. Um, and one of my clients there was a gentleman named Barry Diller.

>> Uh, who was this legendary um, uh, figure in media and and then, uh, very much in within the internet and I he was

a client of mine and I remember like my intention was to stay at Allen & Company forever. It is a great familyrun

forever. It is a great familyrun business. uh really look out for your

business. uh really look out for your clients. You know, it's not the kind of

clients. You know, it's not the kind of investment bank that's looking for fees.

They want to help you build a business.

So, I thought I was going to be there forever, but then I saw Barry. I say, if if I ever get a chance to work for that guy >> Mhm.

>> I'll take it in a second.

>> Why was that? Why was Barry Was Barry interesting or Expedia interesting?

>> Um this was before Expedia. It It was all Barry. he was um

all Barry. he was um every time he came into a room, the whole room would light up.

>> Uh it just the the energy that he carried with him was extraordinary. And

I'll tell you a little story of of when we met. Um, and it's a lesson that I

we met. Um, and it's a lesson that I learned in in in business was that he uh he was bidding for uh he he was running a company called QVC, which was home

shopping, >> bidding for Paramount, which was the uh the company that he he used to run. So,

it's like his coming home.

>> Uh, and I was the little crappy analyst who was running his his deal model.

>> And at one point, you know, the the numbers started getting really high.

He's like, "I want to meet the person who built this deal model." And you know, usually with these investment banks, you like have a managing director and a vice president and an associate.

And he's like, "No, I want to meet the person. I want this person to take me

person. I want this person to take me through the model." And so, he comes in and I'm like so nervous. I'm about to like die. And he forced me to like take

like die. And he forced me to like take him through every single line of this model so he could understand what he was doing. And the lesson that I learned

doing. And the lesson that I learned from him was that every time you you know the the higher up you get an organization and it's something that I

really think about now the more procured uh your version of what's happening in the real world becomes. You have a chief

of staff who controls your >> uh your schedule the the and so all the information flow to you becomes controlled.

>> Mhm. And as the information flow comes up to you, it gets edited and edited and edited >> and all the edges leave

>> and you essentially get access to the information that the organization wants you to have. And the biggest mistakes that I see with businesses is not

usually errors of judgment, but you just didn't really know what was going on in the organization. And Barry went right

the organization. And Barry went right to kind of the source. He didn't want the editing. He didn't want the smooth

the editing. He didn't want the smooth presentation this or that. And so he wanted to get it to the source. You

know, I did okay because then he hired me as his banker. And I just fell in love with >> to everyone now like what happens to CEOs because of the management teams and

so on and so forth. to normal people. Is

everybody by virtue of using large language models today getting a version that if they did it manually they would have they would have discovered that there

are other versions possible.

>> Definitely.

>> Is it making us all stupid? I mean

listen it it's it it's it's not making all of us stupid but if you are lazy enough to just depend on that version of reality

>> because it's a very easy version of reality available to you then you could possibly be stupid. And so that's a a sometimes

as in organizations, you know, the organization takes over the flow of information >> up the the organization, etc. And one lesson that I learned from Barry is like

the way you fight that is to create these random matches, etc. to fight the organization's um need to package everything for you

because it's the things that you don't know that ultimately, you know, hit you on the side of the head that make you vulnerable. Um and so it's a it's a very

vulnerable. Um and so it's a it's a very long-winded story, but uh eventually Barry lost that deal. He then started um with in partnership with John Malone

who's another kind of legend in the entertainment industry uh home shopping network and started rolling up some other uh assets. And at that point he he

did a big deal with USA Networks. He

didn't have any staff to help him out.

And at that point he hired me to be his deal person and I followed him. So then

we kind of took the he he was really Barry was really interested in the intersection of entertainment with interactivity. Um and this is like

interactivity. Um and this is like during the AOL days etc. Uh and >> and we actually got lucky because we bought a company called Ticket Master.

Um I don't know if Ticket Master operates in India but like you know they they would sell but I remember it.

>> Yeah. And in the olden days, the way that Ticket Master would sell tickets was either you would go to like a Tower Record store and like wait in line for the Madonna concert or you would call

Ticket Master kind of call call to to get these tickets. And they did a deal with America Online. And

whoosh, >> the volumes went online.

>> And so at that point, Dyer and I were like, "Okay, what else looks like tickets? It's a virtual good, advanced

tickets? It's a virtual good, advanced ticketing, reserve seats. What else

looks or rhymes with transactions happening either over the phone or, you know, across a desk? Um, and because the transactions are virtual, you don't have shipping costs, etc. We didn't want to

compete with Jeff Bezos. Let's it go after those companies that are offline because we know all the stuff is going to move online. So, that led us to, for example, travel. You know, in the olden

example, travel. You know, in the olden days, you would go to the travel agency or you would call a travel agent to book travel like that's going to go online.

>> So, we started buying businesses that were either offline that were moving online or some of the early online travel companies like Expedia. Uh we

went into the personals business, mass.com. In the olden days, you would

mass.com. In the olden days, you would call and be like, "Hi, I'm Da and I'm >> I'm 5'9. I'm 6'2 and this and that." you

know, like you leave your profile online and someone else would pick that profile. All this stuff went online. So,

profile. All this stuff went online. So,

it was a really wonderful adventure of finding businesses that we thought would take advantage of this movement of um of uh offline to online. Travel was a huge

category that we invested in. I went

from being Barry's deal person to being his chief financial officer. And then at one point the travel business

um it had this incredible growth but it hit some turbulence and at that point uh uh Barry needed a CEO and I was dumb enough to raise my hand. I said hey

maybe I can run this thing and that's when I took over what became uh Expedia and I ran Expedia for 13 years. Barry

was always a chairman. I was the CEO of the company and it was a great run. We

had a great run together. How does

travel change next? D I think it's a industry which has stagnated a bit in terms of >> how one books. At least my experience online of booking a ticket, a hotel

>> hasn't changed that much in the last few years.

>> Yeah, I I don't think that the travel industry's innovated that much. I I

think you're exactly right and it frustrates me, >> you know, which is like what it the booking experience looks quite similar.

I think one obvious answer is the Gent experience which is can you actually get

AI agents or um uh LM agents to book the travel for you to to go to the various sites and compare

>> uh compare uh prices etc and and book for you. So, I think that part of the

for you. So, I think that part of the travel booking experience can be easier having agents work for you. I think that the discovery part of the travel

experience can get much much better.

This is I think one area where LM today shine because if you thought in the again probably 10 years ago >> I want to go someplace over the summer

how you would figure out where to go it would be you would maybe read a magazine or go online or talk to friends or you heard about something the way to gather information or go to Google which I

think could be quite frustrating you know luxury vacation in Europe like the the results you get are trash in my opinion.

um with LLMs now actually their ability to gather the information and bring you unexpected results etc. I think travel discovery is going to get much much

better and is much better today.

>> Mhm.

>> Um travel booking I think agents can help you as well. And then I think one area that I think Uber is really good at that I think the experience can improve

significantly is your inmarket experience. You know why is it that when

experience. You know why is it that when you land and you take the Uber to the to your hotel you even need to check in right we should we have your phone we

know where you are. come into the room, you know, you're why can't it be you're in room uh, you know, 30 31E and just go up there? You already checked in and go

up there? You already checked in and go in, you know, why do I need to sit there and, you know, have the perfectly nice person ask me if I had a nice flight >> and, you know, here's my room, etc. I

think the in market experience is something that hasn't been innovated on at all and it's something that could improve as well. Yeah, I'm able to today discover, say I'm coming to San Francisco.

>> Yes.

>> And I want to figure out which hotel suits my needs. I can enter my taste each time and the agent will recommend something. But is there one place where

something. But is there one place where I don't have to think and agent can do everything? I don't think there's one

everything? I don't think there's one solve for it today.

>> No. And and

there definitely isn't one place today.

I I do think the cost of a bad decision in travel is very high.

>> Yeah.

>> So I don't think you're going to get to a place and I'm certainly not going to get to a place where I tell an agent to find me a hotel in San Francisco and just book it and then you know on the day when I arrive there I'm like where am I going?

>> Yeah. Um, but I think agents can do a great job of of reducing, you know, that list that on Expedia, you look at the 50 hotels and then you're filtering for,

you know, maybe where you're looking or the class of hotels. Um, it it can collate, it can give you the three hotels that you're most likely to like based on your historical experiences. So

I think there's this in between space and I think agents can do a great job in that in between space but I think that final decision at least for me is going to be up to you. But that coalation that

kind of bringing everything together that's a that could be of very very high utility. If you had an idea to build

utility. If you had an idea to build something around travel, >> Mhm.

>> sitting on the board of Expedia and running Uber at the same time, where do you build what?

Um, I think I would build I I would not go after the I

>> would not go after the inspiration side because I think the inspiration side, thank you very much, is is going to be served really really well by an open AI or a Google. They're collecting all the

information. and they're going to have

information. and they're going to have lots of context about who you and I are >> and and the way people get inspired, it's so um disperse, >> right, >> that it's going to be very difficult for

you to build one service that let's say services 70% of your inspiration.

>> And and I really do think that Google, OpenAI, other LLMs are are going to just get better and better here. But I think

the agentic search booking experience and then inmarket experience to make it a very smooth handoff from one experience to

the other. I think that's something that

the other. I think that's something that I would focus on, you know, with my Expedia and Uber hat on at the same time.

>> Something interesting to build though. I

think a lot of opportunity here. It's

not solved for at all.

>> Someone's going to get it right. And I I do think one challenge in terms of how the industry is constructed right now is that the OTAAS, the Booking.coms, the

Expedias of the world, they have they are very self-interested in making sure that you book within their um their supply base.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh and at the same time outside of that supply base, you know, they're organizing a ton of content, prices, etc. features and information. So

there's utility in that. Mhm.

>> The ultimate solution is going to be an agent that can sit above it all and can kind of scour the internet and scour all the booking services and then surface the results which may be a mix and match

of all of them for you based on your tastes. So I don't know actually and I

tastes. So I don't know actually and I hope it's Expedia because I'm on the board and I love the company. I hope

it'll be Expedia who puts it all together. Mhm.

together. Mhm.

>> But there could be kind of an umbrella agent who is truly representing your interest versus Expedia's interest. Now,

if Expedia does a great job, they will maybe expand or they will, you know, over a period of time amalgamate all the content on the on the web. So, all the travel content on the web, booking

content on the web. So, that super agent doesn't add much value.

>> When you have an umbrella agent, soon you'll have another and then another.

>> Yeah.

So will it come down to who is able to extrapolate your taste and can someone's taste be deciphered from past data. You

think I >> I think it's going to be a combination of past data. Um I think that you want an you want an agent that will do some exploration for you,

>> you know. So, for example, when um we are showing you the restaurants that you're likely to want to pick on Uber Eats, if all we show you is the mo is the ones that you're most likely to or

based on what you've done in the past, then we're missing that surprise. We're

missing that explore. So, you want an agent that's a combination of explore and exploit.

>> Mhm. Um, I think that's going to be so I don't think it's just going to be on your past taste, but it'll be putting your past taste with other people who look like you and then surprising you with some new choices as well. I think

that's ultimately going to be the winner.

>> Ultimately, so much will come down to taste, right? In this world,

taste, right? In this world, >> uh, well, listen, taste, convenience, price, >> right? I mean, you and I may be lucky

>> right? I mean, you and I may be lucky enough where taste is >> the overriding factor, but there may be context for you, right? If you're um coming to San Francisco and it's

midweek, you may want a cheap, decent place close to the Uber offices, >> right? And that's a different context

>> right? And that's a different context than if you are going to go to Napa for the weekend >> where you want an experience either for yourself, for yourself and friends or

loved ones. So, I do think that it's not

loved ones. So, I do think that it's not as simple in terms of taste. is based on the context of what the what what you're um what you're solving for you know your

objective function and your objective function is going to change uh based on the context of what the goal of that trip is >> so D I was trying to define what Uber is

today you mentioned Barry and Match.com >> are you Match.com in a different way >> I mean to some extent we're bringing uh obviously riders and drivers together

and we're trying to meet match eaters with our restaurant partners with a courier. So there is some of that. But

courier. So there is some of that. But

listen, I think one way that I think about it from a consumer standpoint, you know, Uber is different thing to Uber to different people. For the consumer, I

different people. For the consumer, I really want Uber to be like that operating system for your everyday life.

You know, we make your everyday life a little bit easier. We give you a little bit of time and convenience back in terms of where you want to go. Um what

you want to eat more and more what you want, right? If you want that iPhone

want, right? If you want that iPhone same day, we'll do that for you. Uh for

our driver and courier partners, we are a source of of of work uh and a source of earnings based on your own needs.

Now, you know, and and and you're you're going to balance your needs based on the commercial objectives as well. If your

need is that I only want to give rides at 2 a.m. in the morning, you may not make much money.

>> So, there's a combination of, you know, the marketplace combines what when you want to work with the realities of the commercial objectives. Hey, 9:00 p.m.

commercial objectives. Hey, 9:00 p.m.

Friday night, you may not want to work, but it's a great time to work >> in San Francisco. And then for restaurant partners, you know, we're a trusted partner in bringing a source of

demand in terms of uh delivery and now retail and groceries that's only going to grow. You know, what we see is the

to grow. You know, what we see is the convenience that we offer in terms of uh delivery of starting food now, but everything that convenience is

absolutely dynamite. It's pe it's

absolutely dynamite. It's pe it's something that people want all over the world and as they experience it more and more people want it.

This is funny, but I was I got in last evening.

>> Hope you took an Uber. No,

>> I have a driver here. But

>> uh I wanted an adapter. Uh I'm using a lap I'm using a couple of laptops which have India plug points and I needed a travel adapter.

>> And at 8:30 p.m.

>> I was trying to like IDate. My hotel

didn't have one.

>> Sure. Uh Target,

Best Buy shuts down at 8:00 p.m. Uh

Walgreens had one store which was open up until 10:00 p.m. I tried to download Instacart on my phone which said I couldn't do it unless I have a US number.

>> Oh yeah, sure.

>> Yeah. So,

>> did you try Eats?

>> Does Uber Eatats have travel adapters?

>> Yeah.

>> Yes.

>> And can I have an international? One of

that's one of the issues with actually the name right when we got out of um when we wanted to expand from food to grocery and other items we actually tested is Uber Eats the right name with

consumers >> and we found that consumers thought that it would carry you know like it's and you've seen a lot of our branding well you may not have seen it because in

India we don't have Uber Eats unfortunately it breaks my heart >> in 2020 right >> uh yes yes uh we partnered um there We we didn't think we could win in India and we wanted to really focus on

mobility.

>> Um but Eats now has groceries, it's got retail and I'll bet you you could have found that travel adapter. So lesson

learned for you next time.

>> And by the way, Eats is now available on the on the rides app too.

>> Nice. You sold Uber Eats to Zamato >> for for 400 500 million. I think you had a 10% equity in Zamato in turn and >> they got a great deal.

>> Yeah. And then you got out of Zumato altogether as well. Yes.

>> Which is called Eternal. Now

>> I didn't know >> they changed the name of the company.

>> Why is that? Why did you get out? What

did you understand or learn about the Indian market?

>> We we got out not because of some deep thought as it relates to Indian market but my belief that we're not a holding company. We're not

investment company. I I am that is not my core competency >> to take Uber investors capital and invest it really well.

>> My competency is to build a big operating business that over a period of time you know grows topline brings in lots of consumers all over the world and

ultimately you know throws off a lot of profitability and and and we can build a a share price. my skill in terms of investment uh is not going to be a significant

factor in the value creation here. So I

believe in kind of sticking you know could I have had a wonderful intellectual time on trying to determine if if I should sell Zamato now or later or 10 years from now sure but that

that's not my core competence. So I want I like to stick to my core competence.

>> Would you buy Zamato today?

>> I don't know. I haven't looked at it actually.

>> Right.

>> Yeah.

>> So >> I mean they they've done a great job.

the food the food delivery business and now the instant grocery business in like blinket I've heard is actually larger than the core business was right so >> growing faster

>> yeah yeah very much so >> so Uber is about 57% mobility 30% delivery uh for today I'm going to ignore freight because I think it's growing at the lowest pace as well

>> I get it >> uh and I'm going to be a 20-year-old boy or girl in India trying to build a business in either mobility, delivery, quick commerce, and maybe we get advice

from DH as to what to build and what the opportunities are.

>> Oh, that's a Well, first I'd say don't try to build anything against Uber cuz we'll kick your ass >> and you can buy us later.

>> How how big are network effects? Because

you're already in so many markets and so big. I'm guessing it's very hard to

big. I'm guessing it's very hard to service a customer who wants to hire a Uber at 3:00 a.m. and 3 3:00 a.m. and 6

p.m.

>> Yeah.

>> Unless you have network.

>> Yeah.

>> The the network effects are very very significant. Now, and so I do think that

significant. Now, and so I do think that to invest in and build the required liquidity on both sides of the market is

going to be very very difficult. Now the

network effects to some extent can be local right so the the liquidity that we have in Bangalore may be different from the liquidity that we have in hydrobot >> so I do think that there's an

opportunity and maybe rapid took advantage of that opportunity of building out services in smaller cities and then building out liquidity in a way that's not quite as expensive because

you're not trying to take on all of India but go city by city by city and then get into larger cities is um they started with I think two wheelers and three-wheers. They're trying to get into

three-wheers. They're trying to get into autos etc. So I think if you find a niche where you believe that you can build liquid supply and demand on a local

basis and then you can rinse and repeat that over and over again. It's

essentially what Travis did when with Uber when he founded it.

>> That is something that could work. Uh

and if you get large enough maybe then and it might be a different segment let's say inter city for example or some other segment that isn't particularly

well served by the Ubers of the world or the Zamadas of the world or some of the other players then maybe that you can build something that could either compete with them or could be bought by

them.

>> That's an interesting insight.

Uh, I watched a bunch of your interviews and >> I'm sorry.

>> No, they were actually really nice.

>> Thank you.

>> Uh, Travis, they say that in in society today as a leader, you're either all inspiring, dogmatic, uh, or you're somebody who builds

consensus, is more relatable, per se.

Mhm.

>> Have you had to project a more relatable image cuz you have to overcompensate for what Travis was

projecting? I one one thing that I

projecting? I one one thing that I really believe in is um I don't think it works if you're trying to be someone other than who you are. You know, people come to me and they they ask me for

leadership advice. And the first piece

leadership advice. And the first piece of advice that I give them is be true to yourself because the minute you're not true to yourself, people will smell that a mile off if you're not authentic. You

know, this is word that people mean authentic, etc. What does it mean? It's

just like be true to who you are. I am

uh the youngest brother of a really big family. Mhm.

family. Mhm.

>> We have like thousands of cousins around.

>> Mhm.

>> And in Iran, community and family is so important.

>> Nobody's the star. And if you're the star, you're going to be put in your place. You know, I'm a fancy fancy CEO

place. You know, I'm a fancy fancy CEO here.

>> Uh but when I go to my family, >> I'm just one of the younger cousins and I'm no big deal. And I love it.

>> It's such a relief to be that person who I just that's my comfort zone. So I tend to be more collaborative. You know, I I

when I played sports, I I would play defense. I always played team sports. I

defense. I always played team sports. I

didn't want to win as an individual. I

love the feeling of winning as a team. I

I you know, I don't want to be there celebrating by myself. I always

celebrate with my team, >> right?

>> So that is who I am. And maybe that's one of the reasons why I I wound up here uh here. And actually my challenge as a

uh here. And actually my challenge as a leader >> is to get out of that collaborative mode sometimes and to really drive. And for

example, I'll give you a little story and it's a funny story but it just taught me a lot. Um we were uh during co >> Mhm.

>> in the US CO was devastating to our business. Mobility was 90% of our

business. Mobility was 90% of our business and by far you know the profitable piece of the business. And

overnight we lost 80 85% of our volume.

couldn't be worse. And and we went from we were already losing two billion a year. We went from losing two billion a

year. We went from losing two billion a year to like losing four billion a year.

It was a disaster. And it became very clear that we had to um undergo layoffs.

>> Mhm.

>> Not a fun time. I never thought I'd come to Uber to to lay off thousands of people. And me being me, I was um

people. And me being me, I was um talking to my team. What do you think we should do? What are the levels? where

should do? What are the levels? where

should we I didn't want to do a peanut butter kind of a layoff etc. I want to be focused and I would do meeting after meeting after meeting with my team because I wanted them all included and I

want to hear what they had to say. and

Nelson Chay uh my CFO at the time he we were talking and he's like Dar you know um we have a lot of respect for you and you're a really good person

>> and we've talked about this a lot why don't you just tell us what you want to do cuz you tell us what you want to do we're right behind you

>> and I was like my god like sometimes >> collaboration etc talking about things doesn't help and as a leader you have to go from collabor you know, from peace time collaboration mode to wartime, like

I am the leader, I'm the general, I'm going to make a decision mode. And and

there like I didn't sleep that much that night, but the next day I got everyone together. I'm like, here's what we're

together. I'm like, here's what we're going to do. We cut deep in operations.

We cut less deep on on tech. Um we it was very very difficult, but like we went and everyone was behind me. and

while it was a really really difficult time to some extent that brought the team together. Um it allowed Uber Eats

team together. Um it allowed Uber Eats to grow to incredible levels. Uh and I think it made us a better company. I

would never ever want to go through that again but made us a better company. So

for me my um my general comfort zone is collaboration, working with the team, listening to the team. But then what I've learned is

team. But then what I've learned is there are certain circumstances where you have to switch your modes.

>> And so I'll switch from collaboration to decision. Here's what we're going to do.

decision. Here's what we're going to do.

And because my team sees me listening, collaborating most of the time, I think they give me credit when I say, "All right, we're going to go this way." So

it it's who I am.

>> Yeah. I've been noticing, I might be wrong in this, in a David versus Goliath world, David seems to have started winning

quite often. Uh, which kind of doesn't

quite often. Uh, which kind of doesn't make sense because we are largely a trust deficit planet.

But a lot of people I know I think it's weirdly correlated to affluence want to pick the smaller guy the smaller brand

uh individuals over corporations >> in such a world I get that relatable makes a lot more sense than all inspiring dogmatic

>> but how does a company like Uber which is uh 40 plus billion in revenue and millions of rides and employees and all of

How do you evolve to project the David image while you already have all of this?

>> I I do think that there is first of all I feel like David when you know we're competing in a technology world of trillion dollar

plus companies, right? So while we may be a larger company, um I don't feel like we're a big company at Uber.

uh we've done well as a company but like I think there's so much more that we can do. So I see our shortcomings much more

do. So I see our shortcomings much more than our accomplishments and I think that there is um it's part of the culture of the company which is not to

overestimate ourselves and and to act like a like a disruptor etc. >> Do you do that consciously project vulnerability?

>> Um Goliath doesn't >> I think I think it's kind of who I am.

It goes back to my family. There's

there's a my father was like a really modest person.

>> Mhm.

>> And he would the minute I kind of thought I was hot [ __ ] I don't know if I'm allowed to say that. You know, he he put me, you know, he he would just throw me

on my in my place. So,

>> I think part of it is who I am. I think

part of it is is where Uber came from.

Remember, like we we were the upstarts.

like this company wouldn't exist >> if we weren't challenging the the the status quo.

>> But how do you continue to look like the upstart tomorrow if the world picks you?

>> I hope so. Now, now I would tell you that internally I do we are upstarts and I want to have

that upstart mentality here.

We do have to recognize the power that we have and I do think that's a mistake that Uber made early on which is we had to fight for our lives but then at some

point you know we did get large we had incredible impact in the cities in which we operated with in and that does come with with that does come with responsibility

and so I do think there's there's this weird kind of dualism about our identity >> which is internally we want to feel like upstarts all the time. Like every single

day we're fighting for our lives. Um we

we we hire from a lot of big tech companies and we say like come here, you're going to work your ass off.

You'll probably make a little bit less money, but you're going to like the work that you do can truly a an individual engineer at Uber can have huge effect

across a company. And that that is really cool. And at the same time,

really cool. And at the same time, the effect that you have on the company also has an effect on society too because we are big. And so there's this

dualism that you have to keep within Uber, which is within these walls, we're going to act like a startup, but outside of the walls and discussions we have with regulators and discussions that we

have with our drivers, our couriers, our restaurants, recognize we're a big company and that does come with responsibility.

Um, and it means that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

>> This is some advice I want personally.

uh at some point Uber had different teams attacking different cities. Yes.

>> For market share and these teams almost competed with each other and netn net it seemed to work well for Uber.

>> I tend to do this very organically with people I have. I don't know if it's good in the long run or bad but I make them compete with each other.

>> Sure.

>> What have you learned? Does it work?

um it works as a growth tactic but it doesn't scale. So to some extent what

doesn't scale. So to some extent what you want to do is you want to have these humans and teams compete against each other to hack your way

into the best solution possible. Mhm.

>> Then after they get to that best solution possible, you then have to come in and automate that solution, you know, through alos, through engineering, etc.

And then what was the frontier becomes a part of the core and then you move to the next frontier. So that's kind of the design spec that we have. You know, the

the team is actually very very entrepreneurial. you know like we Uber

entrepreneurial. you know like we Uber teams to some extent was an amalgamation of a bunch of technologies that we built and our CPO Sachin he kind of had he's

like he was obsessed with that idea he's like well we have a bunch of safety functionality here we can put together teams with our safest drivers we have tracking functionality here I'm going to

put this whole thing together and hack together what you call this teen solution and you hack it you move quickly. You see if there's product market fit and then once

you see the signal that there's product market fit, you do have to systematize it because if you don't systematize it, you can't scale. So, you have to have both muscles within the organization, >> but it's a good way to discover something faster.

>> Totally. You you don't want to like it that that the signal. We don't do this anymore,

the signal. We don't do this anymore, but at at Expedia in the olden days, you know, we like put a button >> um on the website just to see if there's demand for that button, and someone, you know, would click it. They'd be like,

"Oh, I'm sorry. is not working right now and we're just doing it to collect signal. You know that that's the biggest

signal. You know that that's the biggest hack possible, right?

>> Um so so and once you see that product market fit, you got to you got to build behind it and some companies make the mistake of not building behind it and you can get away with it for a while but at some

point the system falls apart.

>> When you speak about Door Dash or when you when you spoke about uh Zomato right now you complimented them, praised them.

Uh, I heard you on a interview speaking about how Door Dash went after the suburbs and you guys missed out.

>> You praising competition, is that a way to appear more David in a David versus Goliath world? Again,

>> it it's not it's not a it's not an act, >> right?

>> Um, I think Door Dash is a really great company. I don't like them.

company. I don't like them.

>> Yeah. But they make us better. Uh, and

they're a worthy competitor, global competitor. Uh, they're beating us right

competitor. Uh, they're beating us right now in the US, but not for long.

>> And we're beating them outside the US.

And the two companies going against each other makes both companies better and actually builds a better service for consumers and couriers and restaurants

all over the world. Um, I I think you know the the humility that we talked about before, I think that actually creates a strength because you're curious. You're not overconfident.

curious. You're not overconfident.

>> You don't think like you're the best in the world. You're curious about what

the world. You're curious about what others are doing.

>> Um, and for me, it motivates me and drives me to be better. You know, if I say Door Dash is a is a good competitor and they are a good competitor, that's motivation for me and my team to be better.

You said outside US you're beating them and they're beating you here. Does India

>> for long though in the US?

>> Does India as a market matter? Dar you

once observed when you were there that Indians are very demanding and they don't want to pay for anything.

>> That that that comment cost me. It um it it matters hugely for us, right? Uh it's

India is now our third largest market in terms of mobility trips.

>> Mhm. Uh we've got I think over 1.4 million now drivers, auto you know two wheelers, three-wheers and and four-wheelers in India. Uh the

growth there is spectacular. I think

India is already one of the great countries in the world but if you look at it as a share of GDP it's only going to increase. uh the leadership there is

to increase. uh the leadership there is amazing and and so much of our talent pool not just in India but all over the

world comes from Indian descent as well.

So India is you know it is a absolute mustwin for Uber not just tomorrow but 10 years from now. I'm going to go back to being a 20-year-old who's starting a

business in this industry.

>> You know, I say don't start one in this industry. Go go go try something else.

industry. Go go go try something else.

>> How do I recognize the opportunity versus damn like the total addressable market like if I want to start quick commerce in India

>> and the cost of delivery is say 20 rupees or 30 rupees or 50 rupees.

If the total addressable market that can afford a product like that in India be 20 million people or 50 million people where is the number right a lot of the

spend a lot of consumption in India is still going towards groceries as much as 50 60%.

So how do I justify to myself that my business idea is sound that I'm going to charge 50 rupees a delivery? How many

people do I model for? Where does that fit come across geographies?

>> I say you're way overthinking it.

>> Um you know businesses never businesses that succeed are always adapting and adjust and adjusting. So

what I tell you is figure out if there's product market fit in that narrow segment. Call it the 50. And by the way,

segment. Call it the 50. And by the way, if it's narrow, that's great because then the big players are probably not going to come after it. It's a segment where you can add value and it's a

segment where you can own and then if you establish product market fit and you build a business there, then you can go to the next area to the next area to

the to the next area. But if my market size is only 20 million people who can afford it, still build it.

>> Build it as long as there's product market fit in terms of unit economics, that makes sense.

>> And once you get to those 20 million people, you're going to find an adjacency to get into. And then you'll find another agency and you'll find another.

>> But then I'm competing with people like you who already are sitting on the network network effects in >> Yeah. But the the the big TAMs are going

>> Yeah. But the the the big TAMs are going to be taking. So actually specifically you should go after the small tamps right and the small opportunities where you can create a network effect without

enormous investments either in technology or development or or monies.

You you actually specifically should go after the small TAMs and then work your way into the adjacencies over a period of time. I wasn't around, but at the

of time. I wasn't around, but at the time, you know, the when Uber East was conceived of, I think it was Jason Droi and Travis, they were they were like

driving around a bunch of cars with burritos in the trunk of that car. It

was it was like a manifestation of mobility.

>> Mhm.

>> Um, a very close manifestation. And you

look at where delivery has gone and how large it's become, you know, I don't think they would have ever predicted that. So you just get one step to the next step to the next step.

I don't believe in overthinking TAM. I

think TAMs are like you build those for IR and you build those to raise money.

You may you may want to create this wonderful dramatic TAM to go raise, you know, a couple million bucks. But that's

not what should be processing through your mind. It should be can I build a

your mind. It should be can I build a service that has eventually strong unit economics that then I can build on top of.

Quickcommerce seems to have sidestepped the US for a long time. I think you went to big box retail and then you went to another thing altogether.

>> Yeah.

>> Not necessarily competing on I will deliver in 6 minutes, I will deliver in seven and I will deliver in eight.

>> Why is that?

>> Because the cost of labor in the US is too high. So I my that that's my take

too high. So I my that that's my take which is um with quick commerce uh you can't automate that much because the cost of

the automation doesn't bear out in a small box.

>> So you have to use human labor.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh the co and so in markets where the cost of human labor and is not there and the concentration of of customers isn't there

>> you get a fail. uh which is for example let's say in the US >> right >> um you know I think that go is making a good run at it >> but you look at the development of that

market versus uh blinket or some of the other developing markets it is absolutely working much much better in lowerc cost labor markets than it is in

high-cost labor markets >> is there a arbitrage there because your drivers are not essentially employees is there a labor cost arbitrage cuz their

gig workers. They run their own cars.

gig workers. They run their own cars.

They don't need to be paid benefits, insurance.

>> Yeah. There's there's a trade-off there, right? Which is we can't tell our

right? Which is we can't tell our drivers when and when to work, right? So

imagine if Starbucks is hiring a barista, they don't go to the barista, hey, show up whenever you want to, and you know, we'll pay you however much a Starbucks barista makes per hour. So you

could call it a labor arbitrage. I I

call it a trade-off which is the driver and the courier can decide when and where they want to work. That creates

cost for us. We then have to build liquidity of of of supply and demand.

And sometimes we will use incentives and or algorithms for example surge or circumstances when uh

when demand exceeds supply. And in those cases, we have to actually raise prices for that demand in order to attract enough drivers to get out into the

market to pick out to pick up everyone, you know, arriving at 7:00 p.m. on a

Thursday night at the airport or, you know, when when uh the Warriors uh game is is done, >> right?

>> So, it it it's it's I wouldn't it's not an arbitrage mechanism. Um it is a tradeoff

arbitrage mechanism. Um it is a tradeoff that also is an enormous benefit to uh certain people who don't want to work on

a schedule who want to work less than 40 hours a week. You know 70% of our drivers and couriers are working less than 20 hours a week. So it it is a

unique product market fit that we found.

It works for drivers and couriers. It

works for us. We have to build very complex systems in order to make it work. Um, and I think overall when you

work. Um, and I think overall when you look at society, it's it's good for society, right? It's a service both for

society, right? It's a service both for the drivers and for customers that works and and I think more and more societies

are are appreciating that.

>> You've spoken about autonomous vehicles a bunch of times and >> uh I don't know if it'll happen sooner or later than you predict, >> but >> everyone's been wrong so far, so who

knows? Well, I mean the predictions

knows? Well, I mean the predictions generally of autonomous and when they're when it's going to be ready for market, >> you know, this is a this is a problem that uh Whimo has been working on probably for 15 20 years.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and it's proven out to be a much more difficult problem to solve than anyone expected, but finally it's working now.

I mean, the the Whimo product is spectacular and there are others building out the product as well. I was

at a junction last evening and there was a fire truck behind a Whimo.

>> Interesting.

>> And I I didn't I couldn't >> sirens on.

>> The sirens were on >> and the Whimo actually did this interesting maneuver where it went right, stopped there, waited for the fire truck to go. It was incredible.

>> Yeah. Perfect.

>> What do you think wins? uh Veos tech or Teslas cameras, LAR, radar.

>> I personally believe that autonomous vehicles have to have superhuman levels of safety. I don't think it's good

of safety. I don't think it's good enough for them to be better than humans. They have to be multiple times

humans. They have to be multiple times better than humans. And Whimo's

certainly proven that that's possible.

So, why not take that shot? Mhm.

>> Um I think in the near term it's going to be very difficult and Elon would tell me I'm wrong and never bet against them but it's my instinct that in the near term it's going to be very difficult to

build a camera only product that has superhuman levels of safety. And again

now at some point will it be possible?

Quite possibly yes. But if you can have um instrumentation that includes cameras and LAR and the cost of LAR, you know,

solid state LAR now is 400, 500 bucks. Why not

>> include LAR as well in order to achieve superhuman safety. So possible, yeah, it

superhuman safety. So possible, yeah, it will be possible. I don't know when, >> but is the possible the better product?

I'm not sure. I would I all of our partners um that we're working with now are using a combination of uh camera, radar, and LAR. And you know, I

personally think that's that's the right solution, but I could be proven wrong.

>> What happens to Uber's earners when if autonomous becomes safer and cheaper?

>> Mhm. One could argue that putting a human behind a wheel is a disservice because you're putting somebody at risk.

At that point, what happens to all the earners who are working with Uber?

>> Well, I think it's not just earners.

It's it's then why should humans drive, right? Society would be uh I think there

right? Society would be uh I think there are about a million auto related fatalities in the world. So, why not save those lives?

>> Um I I think that that is it's an inevitability for that to happen. So,

it's not just drivers, but also >> bottle drivers, whether professional or not, wouldn't drive anymore. And and I think that would be a good outcome for society. I do think we have time.

society. I do think we have time.

>> How much >> between >> I think it's a it's a good 20 years, you know, because right now um the drivers, the autonomous drivers are safer but

much more expensive >> uh even in developed markets that have high labor costs. So for autonomous to come into India is going to take a long

time in terms of cost of hardware coming down. So so 20 years I'm describing as

down. So so 20 years I'm describing as an end state. You know within 10 years you're going to see a significant number of autonomous vehicles especially in

developed markets and I think that's a very good things in terms of safety. Uh,

and what we're trying to do is make sure we communicate with our drivers appropriately. And it's very, very small

appropriately. And it's very, very small at this point. It's a teeny teeny part of rides in in any markets. And we're

actively looking to create other work opportunities for those drivers as well.

So for example, I'm actually going to go to a meeting later today of uh a new group that we built, Uber AI solutions that is using our gig workers and then

other specialist workers as well for you know AI labeling, translation, all kinds of um needs and products that actually

serve these AI models, some of which may be autonomous or not. um that ultimately are going to be doing a bunch more of the manual work not just driving but the

manual work that many workers do today.

>> I was having this debate with a friend of mine back in India and they were like autonomous for India with the cows and dogs and carts and all of that. But when

you think about it, >> if a computer has a reaction time which is faster than a human, >> an autonomous vehicle should do better with more arbitrary things like this at

play.

>> Totally. I I I think the it's just a question of training.

>> Um and if uh if autonomous vehicles can figure out New York City traffic, you know, India traffic is harder.

>> Mhm. uh but it's only an issue of training on additional data sets and improving the capabilities there.

>> Yeah. And I don't want to be unfair with this question of what happens in 20 years to earners if >> even if it takes 20 years because >> I could extrapolate the same thing for so many industries where AI will disrupt

their jobs in 20 years.

>> Yeah. It's a societal issue.

>> Yeah. But what happens to society?

What has happened to society repeatedly and repeatedly is that the workforce has adjusted over and over again, right? Every single

time when um more of manufacturing was automated, there's always this drama of oh my god, what happens to the people and people figure it out and people

usually then go to higher uh value types of labor and you know unemployment rate.

We our world has more automation today than it ever has been and unemployment rates are at historical lows in most uh developed countries. I think the

developed countries. I think the question is whether or not this is a unique time and circumstance where the change is going to happen faster than it

ever has before. And based on the rate of technological change there, there's reason to believe that yeah, maybe this time

may happen faster than societies historically have been able to adjust to change. Um, I don't know that yet.

change. Um, I don't know that yet.

>> Uh, I don't think it's a problem for Uber. It's a problem for Well, it is a

Uber. It's a problem for Well, it is a it is a potential issue for Uber and it could be a real problem. Mhm.

>> Um but it's a big societal problem that we all have to have to take on. But

there's also opportunity there. You

know, how can we educate our workforce and bring to them opportunities that ultimately allow them to live the kinds of life that they that they want to?

Our, you know, kind of building Uber AI solutions is one small step in that direction. But believe me, we don't have

direction. But believe me, we don't have all the answers.

Do you suspect Dara that you might lose access to data like you have now? If

tomorrow say Elon saying that Tesla will not need Uber or even Whimo, I'm guessing a lot of the data is controlled by the hardware and less by who booked

the VHO.

Well, I I think that we actually now have uh we're collecting data using Lucid Cars in a bunch of uh cities as well. So, I think for Uber data is not

well. So, I think for Uber data is not going to be a problem.

>> Uh and we will have data uh capture capabilities. We'll work with our

capabilities. We'll work with our partners to capture uh data as well and then provide them to our partners all over the world. And based on the growth that we see, our access to data is only

going to increase.

>> Right. Uh Travis is doing ghost kitchens.

>> Yes.

>> I watched a interview of his where he was speaking about how this could change how we eat.

>> Any view on that? Do you think that's going to happen?

>> I I think it's inevitable. Um I think it'll take time. You know, change in the real world really takes time, >> but I've been super impressed with what Travis has done with Ghost Kitchens and

now he's working on robotics as well >> to automate more of the of the cooking process >> and bringing, you know, healthy natural

food to more people with less labor.

Like that's really really cool. And he's

a he's a terrific partner of ours. Like

we work with cloud kitchens all over the world. um they're a big partner and you

world. um they're a big partner and you know Travis is a uh is an entrepreneur that you should not underestimate.

>> Any view on what could happen to restaurants? Dra like I know a bunch of

restaurants? Dra like I know a bunch of them large chains back home who >> constantly complain about the 15 to 30%

they end up paying uh delivery operators and they talk about how it's unsustainable. add to that you have the

unsustainable. add to that you have the data and you start Dark Kitchens or what Travis is doing. What happens to an old school restaurant business?

>> Well, I think an old school restaurant business that can't adjust is going to suffer. They're going to lose share.

suffer. They're going to lose share.

>> Mhm.

>> And so I think it's it's a job of the old school restaurant business to become a new school restaurant business. How do

you do that? Well, I I think if if you break down what restaurants do is there's a component which is food, >> right? Giving you great food that you

>> right? Giving you great food that you enjoy.

>> Mhm.

>> And there's another component which is hospitality, >> right?

>> Which is come to this restaurant and there's an environment that you might enjoy, etc. And there's the there's the mood, there's the romance of a of a

restaurant as well. I think that what you will there are certain restaurants where the hospitality part of the

offerings um is not quite as is is not as significant right it's um >> McDonald's is more about the food >> than it is about going sitting in McDonald's and enjoying you know the

seating there is about the food and the brand and affordable food available quickly to so many people right and so I do think that those depending on the

kind of food that you're providing. If

it's about the food, then you will have to make this transition to either drive-thru or delivery >> because you're not adding much value in

terms of hospitality. Uh, and in those kinds of circumstances, what cloud kitchens >> offers you, which is a more industrialized way of still providing

really healthy food to someone and the hospitality there is, well, I want to eat at home. I love my home.

>> Um, that is essentially where that system is going to go. And yes, will it take share from the classic uh from the classic restaurant business? the will,

but it's also actually um extending the share of restaurant eating or restaurant food as a percentage of overall food consumption. If you look at restaurant

consumption. If you look at restaurant sales, restaurant sales are growing faster than grocery sales, right?

>> Because these restaurants are providing a better product more affordably, more conveniently. And then I do think that

conveniently. And then I do think that there will be certain restaurants where >> you know that hospitality that that the third place that Starbucks was so good at, I think Brian Nichols is trying to

bring in >> the feel that part of it um is still I think going to sing, you know, the romance of going to a restaurant.

>> And so I think that those two the utility and the romance are going to be separable. Uh, and you as a restaurant

separable. Uh, and you as a restaurant have to understand where you want to be cuz I think the middle is going to be a difficult place to to live. But the

restaurant industry is adjusting.

>> Mhm.

>> Um, just like every single industry has to adjust. You've got to change in order

to adjust. You've got to change in order to keep up with the times.

>> So, Dra, you talk about ads on Uber.

>> Yes.

>> And I have found this even with myself that when I'm searching for something today, I don't use Google anymore. I end

up using Perplexity or OpenAI or someone like that.

>> Sure.

>> Uh if I want to build a brand tomorrow and I want to market and nobody's landing on Google ads, uh what happens to the world

of ads? How does a brand get built?

of ads? How does a brand get built?

How do I get the word out that I've started this new t-shirt company? Well,

I think that those surfaces for a brand to truly get built are there in terms of Instagram and Tik Tok and and Facebook,

right? So, the the Google ad world, the

right? So, the the Google ad world, the perplexity ad world, etc. are built for

um for searches based on intent.

And and so I think that that medium is about growing brands, not establishing or inventing brands. But I actually

think that the surface area for brand new brands to um to to grow and thrive, it it's actually greater than that than than it ever has been. I I'll tell you a little story of of my niece.

>> Mhm.

>> Um Liliana. She she's incredible. She

she is study humanities, loves fashion, loves golf, built um a wanted to build a new

golf brand which is like fun, great, you know, fashionable clothes for for women.

She she went on um uh she she used MidJourney, taught herself how to use MidJourney, >> designed all of the designs on MidJourney, then went out and sourced uh

her clothing with uh I think it's uh some Chinese players and Indian players and I think a couple of other places uh got the clothing and now she has is

building this Lily Hummer brand um and using Tik Tok and and using Instagram uh as her distribution mechanisms and also

going to like these traditional golf clubs etc. She could not have done that 10 years ago.

>> So I actually think this is a magical time with the tools that you have um at your arsenal uh and the manufacturing prowess all around the world at your

disposal. It's a great time to build

disposal. It's a great time to build brands and I think the surfaces are there as long as you have a story, you've got a personality, and you have a something distinctive to add.

>> You're saying social media is still the go-to place.

>> Oh, yeah. Now,

you know, would Liliana have the the you know, would she do well on Google? No.

>> But that that's not the surface, you know, that's a surface, let's say, for Lululemon, not not her.

>> U with the current president's immigration policies. Mhm.

immigration policies. Mhm.

>> Do you think labor cost for your earners will go up significantly?

>> The cost of labor will not go up directly.

>> Mhm.

>> Because I think the vast majority of drivers, couriers, etc. are legal in terms of their immigration uh status.

But to some extent, we compete with the labor market >> in terms of the rates that uh our drivers want to make per hour. So I

think in an indirect way it could have an effect on us but I don't think it'll have a direct effect on us.

>> Right. So D I have a fund back home in India and I spent >> You have a fund?

>> I have a fund. Yeah. Like a private equity fund.

>> Sure.

>> And I >> How's it doing?

>> It's doing decent I think.

>> I spent a lot of the last couple of years buying into the transition into electric mobility.

>> Interesting.

>> So we got everything from electric scooters to trucks to buses. We even did electric flying taxi investment recently.

>> All over the world or in India specifically?

>> Uh a little bit all over the world but more focused on that region.

>> Have you seen Chinese electric vehicles by the way? They're incredible. Right.

>> They are unbelievable. It is

>> the the innovation coming out of the Chinese OEM and EV business. It It's

I've never seen anything like it. It's

extraordinary.

>> Why though? Why why are they so far ahead of everyone else now?

>> Because of the competition. I I I think that there's this um belief I I'd say from from the US and

and a lot of uh of of Western countries that China is a planned economy.

>> Okay. And China is a planned economy from a strategic standpoint. And for

example, you know, they want to get into manufacturing, EVs, etc. And so while that comes top down from the government

then actually the way these industries grow is every you know Chinese significant city or province etc wants

their own EV uh company to succeed. So

in China now there are over a hundred OEMs in China, well over a hundred.

>> And so then there's this bottoms up competition that's based on the top down strategy that the government sets. So

you have the kind of the best of both worlds, which is you have industrial policy, but then the winners aren't whose buddies with the president, >> right?

>> The winners are who wins in a brutal competitive environment. So the winners,

competitive environment. So the winners, you know, coming out of China, the Gile's of the world, the BYDs, you know, the these the they have been they've been through the ringer. And so it

really is survival of fittest. And the

innovation that we see and the speed of development there, it's it's extraordinary.

>> In a free market, can anyone compete in catchup? No tariffs, nothing, no duties.

catchup? No tariffs, nothing, no duties.

>> In a free market, can anyone catch up to to China? Of course, people can catch

to China? Of course, people can catch up. I I think that you know when you

up. I I think that you know when you look at the Korean manufacturers there there's a ton of talent there but I think if you look at my expectation is

overall share especially in the EV sector on a global basis of EVs is going to be um is going China's way for a while but individual

uh innovative OEMs they're going to do fine >> so say I'm a scooter company in India uh I don't have the scale that Chinese manufacturers or OEMs have today. How do

I compete?

>> Cuz they're building at a 100x scale that I am.

>> I mean, listen, it um I don't have a I don't know enough about uh the Indian industrial sector.

>> But based on the innovation that I see out of India and the talent, there's got to be a way to compete. you know it it it's what we what I see out of India it's

it's very very special I think that um especially in IT industries India really has risen >> um and I think manufacturing

is still somewhat nent relative to the size and potential of India but there's no doubt we'll get there >> I had this thesis that all vehicles will

be electric by x amount of time but the adoption seems to have slowed down.

>> Why is that?

>> Subsidies are going away.

>> Yeah, so subsidies are going away now. I

I do think that in um in Europe and China it's definitely happening. Uh I do think that it requires substantial

investment over a long period of time in the infrastructure charging infrastructure of cities. Mhm.

>> And so the societies that have continued to make way there >> uh you are seeing the product you're you're seeing EV penetration

uh continue to improve. And within Uber, >> you know, um we are moving to EVs five times faster than the general public. So

EVs inside of the Uber system are definitely increasing. Uh, and from my

definitely increasing. Uh, and from my standpoint, I'm hoping that we continue to increase the penetration of EVs. And the next driver that you want switching from a combustion engine to an EV is

actually Uber driver because the average Uber driver is driving four to five times the mileage of the average driver.

So, we continue to push it. We're still

quite committed to um moving over to as much sustainable uh both packaging for our restaurants and EVs, but I would say that it's gone much harder over the past 2 years.

>> So, if I make the bet today by investing capital in the assumption that all vehicles will be EV, do you think it's still a fair bet?

>> Yes, it's a better technology, but it's a question of you might want to pick where you're investing.

>> Give me some advice. Where should I? Uh

well, China, no, there's too much competition, but I I think that there's still potential in Europe. And you know, I I I look at the the the investments going into the charging infrastructure

of local cities. That that's a signal that I would look for, >> right? With everything you're building,

>> right? With everything you're building, D uh funnily enough, I had to tell you this. There is a really popular wrestler

this. There is a really popular wrestler uh in India with the name Dar Singh.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. I don't know if I should call you D because that's how we call it in India or D as well.

>> Okay. With every

>> is he is he bigger than I am?

>> I think so.

>> I find that surprising.

>> I've never met him but I suspect he is.

He's much bigger than me too.

>> With everything you're building, Dra, uh is there a super app coming? Is that the eventual outcome?

I think that um super apps seem to be particularly relevant in uh in in Asia and China etc.

They've been quite successful there.

>> They've had less success in western markets.

>> So I don't know if we will get to what you would call a super app but we certainly want to be a connected family of apps. So if you if you go on Uber

of apps. So if you if you go on Uber now, Uber Mobility, we have Uber Eats available to you and and people are are transacting billions of dollars of Uber

Eats on the Uber mobility app.

>> And on on Eats, obviously we have grocery, we have retail, you'll know next time you need a travel uh adapter.

And so the the we we have I say ecosystem >> that is making it increasingly easier for you to work from surface to surface or with with a membership uh uh plan

Uber 1 that gives you discounts on on both. So I absolutely know that we are

both. So I absolutely know that we are building kind of this local ecosystem that local OS of yours. Um whether the

physical manifestation is a super app or not, I don't know. Uh and my, you know, kind of the way I view it is I'm going to I'm going to let our engineers and our product folks kind of innovate, come

up with the next idea and then we'll go kind of one step in front of the other to to get to that outcome.

>> I was thinking about this and I did a little bit of research. Super apps tend to work in societies without as much rebellion in more >> as much what >> rebellion.

>> Yes. in pseudocialist societies, in more capitalistic ones, everybody wants to bet on the new guy, the young guy. The

same David Goliath argument.

>> I mean, I think I I think there might be some of that, but there's also kind of um phone storage and capabilities.

>> You know, having a separate app for all all these different services may uh may be a lot. And I think in

some of the more developed markets, people will pay for that last 10 or 20% of finetuning that maybe a super app doesn't.

>> So I don't know whether it's societal or it's a combination of society or technology coming together.

>> It definitely hasn't worked in the west though.

>> Last question. Dra,

you have been a successful investment banker, a two-time CEO, Expedia, Uber, sometimes joining midway and really

scaling the company.

>> If you were me, a 20-year-old boy or girl in India and you had to start a fresh, what would you build today and who would you build it with? Who would

your co-founder be? Um,

so I always think people people should know their own limits. I I am not a startup person. That's not my skill. I'm

startup person. That's not my skill. I'm

a scale person, >> you know. I'm not the person to to kind of start with with an idea fresh.

>> Uh, and I have enormous respect for those rebels >> who think that they can do it on their own. My advice would be I I've always

own. My advice would be I I've always said when when I give career advice to people is I look for three things. Um,

one is I want to work for people who I like and I can learn from.

>> Second is I want to go to a place where I as an individual can make a difference.

>> Mhm.

>> And third, I want to make a difference at a place that matters in the world, is making a difference in the world. Uh,

and actually that's why like investment banking for me, like great people. I

thought I was pretty good, but it wasn't I didn't get that jazz. I wasn't

changing the world. Mhm.

>> And so then when I saw Barry, I'm like, >> great, I want to work for him >> and we were, you know, really on this path of the changing of the

world and hopefully helped it with travel as well. And and I was really, you know, I thought I was going to run for Expedia for as long as Barry would help me, but then for me Uber, the thing

that really excited me was how important Uber was to the world and, you know, the difference hopefully that I could make as a as a CEO. I think a lot of young people, they kind of think too much about like how much money they're going

to make or this or that. It's like work for people who you love or respect, make a difference, and try to work at a place that's making a difference, and the rest takes care of itself.

>> Thank you, DH. This was a lot of fun, and hopefully we do it again sometime soon.

>> I think that'd be great.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you.

How did you hurt your hand?

>> Um, I was at camp uh with my kids and my son uh Hugo is a keeper and I used to be a keeper in uh uh in high school as

well. So, I thought it was a good idea

well. So, I thought it was a good idea to to play keeper against him and all the other camp counselors. And I got carried away and I dogged to to make him

proud. So I I took this one for my boy.

proud. So I I took this one for my boy.