From JP Morgan to DTC: How Ondo Built a Better Sock Brand

I actually think e-commerce and I say

this as a service operator is like

amongst the most complicated financial

businesses to run because of the way the

cash conversion cycle is so distinct uh

and sometimes really wide from the

revenue realization where versus my

business those things are like really in

sync. So like cash flow management and

the finances of a service business are

much simpler than a business. So what is

it about that background because some

people might also say like if you were

inside of a JP Morgan looking at

e-commerce businesses maybe you should

have run the other direction. Um, but

what about it I think seeing in that

world drew you to this business model

and how do you think the financial

background has helped you?

All right, welcome back everybody to

another episode of the e-commerce

playbook podcast. I'm excited today to

be joined by my new friend who we've

just met in person. We just came off of

a chance to actually physically see some

one another in the meat space in the

real world. I'm joined today by Daniel

Shim, the founder and CEO at Onondo.

Daniel, what's up, man?

>> Hey, Taylor. Good to be here. Thanks for

inviting me. This is my first podcast,

which I told you earlier. So, I hope

you're no hard questions.

>> No. Yeah, I love it. The the podcast

debut. Well, it's just like a talking

into the Zoom box, which we all do

plenty of, so should shouldn't be too

different, man. But why don't you give

everybody a little bit about who you are

and then I want to start with your

unique background cuz you share it with

some friends of mine that I think is

like the a secret not normal path to

DTOC but I think it's a one that I think

makes us a kindred spirit. So tell us a

little bit about who you are and how you

got into this business.

>> Yeah absolutely. So I'm as you know I'm

Daniel. I'm the founder CEO of I like to

say that I grew up in both South Korea

and and the United States. I'll get into

why I mentioned Korea later, but um I

did the traditional finance route,

worked in finance for four years, but in

my last two years, I was covering

startups at JP Morgan from a treasury

sales perspective. So, as you know,

everyone has their own bank, but

companies do too. So, I was part of that

team that manages the relationship

between a startup and a bank. And so,

naturally, working with a lot of

founders and executives, I I was like,

"Oh, a lot of them I see I see some

patterns here." um you have a a problem

that you identify, you want to solve it,

and then you have a great idea on how

you want to solve it, and then you go

all in. And so I was like, okay, what

what ideas do I have? And if you ask any

Korean friends that you might have, they

all buy their socks from Korea. And so

that got me thinking, okay, then where

do all my non Korean friends buy their

socks? And then a lot of times they

didn't know. It was it was very

fragmented. Um it was very disrupted.

And so, uh, originally my idea was going

to be get a lot a ton of these socks

from Korea and then sell it in the

States, brand it well, whatever that

meant to a banker at the time, price a

little bit cheaper than the the bigger

sock brands of the world, and then sell

it in the US. But I quickly realized

that I'm not really solving a problem.

It's not a very good idea. And so, I

actually pivoted to no-show socks

because no-show socks, they always slip

off your feet when you're walking. And

so, I thought that if I could develop a

product that doesn't, I can go all in.

And then that's what I did 2019

September right before COVID I quit my

job in finance started working with a

lot of different factories and then

officially we launched 2020 October we

just hit our 5y year anniversary and

we've been selling a ton of no-show

socks and so that's what we've been

doing and that's a quick intro of my

background. So what what's fascinating

so obviously my passion sort of sits at

the overlap of marketing and finance and

I don't come out of a traditional

financial background but there's a few

people that like more and more I'm

hearing this story. So I don't know if

you know do you know the chubbies guys?

Do you know like Kyle Heny

>> I know the brand.

>> So those guys come out of banking. Chad

Junis from Grunes comes out of banking.

Right. Like there's this all of a sudden

there's this cohort of sort of

successful ecom people that come with

this more traditional finance

background. Um, and I find it really

interesting because there's such a a gap

for a lot of people that just come up as

product founders or marketing founders

in their financial knowledge. And it

makes e-commerce hard because I actually

think e-commerce and I say this as a

service operator is like amongst the

most complicated financial businesses to

run because of the way the cash

conversion cycle is so distinct uh and

sometimes really wide from the revenue

realization where versus my business

those things are like really in sync. So

like cash flow management and the

finances of a service business are much

simpler than a business. So, what is it

about that background? Because some

people might also say like if you were

inside of a JP Morgan looking at

e-commerce businesses, maybe you should

have run the other direction. Um, but

what about it? I think seeing in that

world drew you to this business model

and how do you think the financial

background has helped you?

>> Yeah, I I think um not because of my

finance background, but I think a lot of

people tend to appreciate entrepreneurs

because they're building something. I

think that was a huge that was that that

seemed very attractive to me especially

when you're working at a very large

organization as you know you're really

one piece of the puzzle and so I think

that was something that I was very

curious about and that attracted me to

entrepreneurship I think coming from a

finance background what's really helped

me is number one how to how to market

myself I think I think bankers are very

good at doing that also we understand I

guess like very high level how a

business runs because of the visibility

that we had and um and looking at so

many different companies especially at

JP Morgan I was covering very early

stage and then up to preipo companies

and so that that that vast range of

companies I was able to see really

helped me give a perspective oh hey from

a very early stage to preipo this is

what I can expect uh but I think to your

point earlier if I knew that operations

was this hard product development is

harder and also managing supply chain is

the hardest I probably would have stayed

at JP Morgan a little bit longer. I I I

think 6 months after I quit, COVID

happened and I could have technically

worked from home and I had two jobs, but

um that's I mean hindsight is 2020,

right? And so yeah, exactly.

>> I I Yeah, I think that's my perspective

on on on your question.

>> Yeah, I think it's funny there there's

something about the glutton for

punishment that we all are in this space

because it is so hard. There's so many

pieces of it that are so complex. And

I'd say even for you, I look and go,

man, you might have chosen the hardest

game of all. Because I think a lot of

people on the outside looking in would

go, Socks is as potentially commoditized

and competitive a landscape as you could

possibly imagine, where it feels like

it's sort of a race to zero. How do you

think about winning and differentiating

yourself in a space like that where in

reality like what is the barrier to

entry to socks? Probably not too much.

there's already some wellestablished

players in the space. Why did you think

and why do you still believe that

there's opportunity in categories like

socks for somebody wanting to start a

business?

>> Yeah, that's a great question and and

like that's a question that I've been

getting since the the idea stage and

that I still get every day, right?

stocks are so competitive, but I mean

because it's such an old industry and no

show socks were still slipping off your

feet even before I started ono, I I

thought that was I guess

I guess like I knew it was going to be

very competitive, but I thought that

there was still no product that can

solve this problem. And so if I have

something that's very high quality, not

just from a functionality perspective,

but also from a fabric perspective, and

also making sure that supply chain is

bestin-class, I knew that I I can with

my background scale a brand faster or in

a more structured way than other brand

founders is how I viewed the sock

industry. Um, there's not that many. I

mean, I'm sure there's a there's sellers

on Amazon or other brands that can try

to replicate our product, but I've we

haven't seen a brand or seller that does

everything well like we do. And so, from

a product standpoint, and so that's

where um I knew that, hey, if I'm all in

on this, if I if we have a genuine story

and we're very passionate about our

product and about our next product

categories, I I thought that we'd be

able to compete in this very competitive

market.

>> Yeah. And I so one of the things that I

appreciate is that even when people

think about markets, right, there's

socks are purchased in so many different

form factors and size and purpose that

to build a business to start what you

really need is a niche category where

you are better than other people such

that you solve a real problem for people

such that they will even pay a premium

because it's so much better than the

competition. And so it's easy to look at

a category like socks and go like oh

socks commodity but when you break it

down and you go no no no no one had

really solved this problem well like and

so we were able to do it command a

premium and drive demand such that

people were satisfied with a better

experience in this category and what

that builds for you now is a platform to

explore all sorts of additional ideas

from there because I think the business

doesn't have to be one thing forever but

there does need to be something

meaningful in the beginning and I think

the thing that you've done really well

too and I'd be curious about where this

cames from. It's clear to me like you

have a a taste, a sense of aesthetic, a

sense of brand visual that is also very

important to Ono. Like if you go look at

it, it could it could very easily be

construed initially as like high fashion

like the quality of the photography.

Like in a category where it's problem

solution, it feels like it would have

been easy to sort of end up looking like

a Drander with all the like sort of

features and benefits like your sort of

traditional view. But for you, aesthetic

still matters too. talk a little bit

about like your sense of taste and brand

and how that plays into the long-term

platform for Honda.

>> Yeah, I I think it's very similar to my

answer would be very similar to your

previous question because I knew socks

would be so competitive. I didn't want

to sacrifice anything. um um even when

it comes to branding and visuals and so

yeah from day one I've been very

specific about our photography and and

taking a step back um like even today we

still make enhancements to the same

products that we've been selling from

day one and so I still think I mean

we'll continue to innovate within the

product space but even with our existing

products we know that other sellers or

other brands might try to replicate what

we do so to to to fight that we're

continuously making upgrades to it and

so Um, yeah, like our branding and

visuals. I like to say that we wanted to

go with that European look and feel, but

our product is very Korean or very

Asian. Even the name ono means

temperature in Korean and Japanese. And

so I think we're trying to hit all

continents, but at the same time do a

very good job of it when it and and

really have a very sharp story is I

think what we're trying to do.

So I want to talk a little bit about the

journey because launching in the middle

of COVID is obviously a wild journey

because it was a very different

environment than the one we're in today,

right? And I think it was for many

brands the risk would have been to build

up an inflated underlying

operating system that expected the

demand to look the same like it was in

CO and going forward. So can you talk a

little bit about how the demand journey

has been starting in co what you guys

have gone through and how you think

about how the business operates today

versus in that environment. How

different is it for you guys? I know

this is something a lot of businesses

have gone through. Is that journey up

and then sort of a reset to a

reimagining a new growth engine? What

does it mean to pursue sort of different

levels of profitability? What that what

has that journey been like for you guys?

>> Yeah, absolutely. And and so I think um

thankfully we were able to find product

market fit pretty quickly. I think in

month two we were already doing 100k in

in revenue and I think that speaks for

itself. Um but and in the beginning we

saw hyper growth. I think what really

threw us off is iOS 14. I think that iOS

upgrade firmware update will stay with

me till I die. That that update really

hurt us from a attribution and tracking

perspective. And that's when we weren't

sure if we were truly growing or not.

And so um that was like I think our

first challenge to overcome from a

digital marketing standpoint. Uh but I

think working with the right people,

having a great team, we were able to

overcome that through different u

middleware and and and tracking

software. And then I think compared to

the the the co era to now, like we're

still selling 99.99% on our website. We

recently just launched on Amazon with

just certain SKUs. Um, everyone tells

me, "Hey, Daniel, when are you gonna

have your next when are you gonna have

your first retail store? Are you gonna

do any B2B? Do any wholesale?" I think

in this climate, yeah, we'll definitely

consider that, but I still see us as a

very early stage brand. And my end goal

is not to do just no-show socks. We

we've been launching head products like

headbands and and baseball caps. And as

we expand our product categories,

eventually, I think I want to have those

B2B relationships, even have our

physical store. But I I I still think

there's a lot of opportunities in the

dig digital space for us especially only

selling in the US but also with everyone

talking about AI and and and AI search.

I think that's also a very untapped

market to to also experiment and scale

on. Awesome. So talk a little bit about

um sort of how you think about

capitalization for growth. So obviously

part of our work together is about

building we work within our profit

system to sort of really identify and

get clear about growth expectations

ensuring discipline on the acquisition

side. How are you guys currently

capitalized? How do you think about how

that has to change in this environment

versus others? What is your sort of plan

for how you think about the next stage

of growth? how you guys think about how

your current capitalization informs

growth and how you think about your

growth rate relative to how efficient

you need to be versus how much topline

volume you should pursue. What's the

current growth plan for?

Yeah, in in the early days I was always

um telling my team we need hyper growth,

like we need to become number one very

very fast within our category, but I've

come to learn that there's just so many

different parts of the business that

need to grow together and that's always

the hardest part. I think yeah, spending

a ton on marketing is very easy. You

will see topline growth, but are you

doing that in a profitable way? That's

that's a different story, right? And so

um I think uh for every brand every like

3 to 5 years you need to have that

plateau year and and that that's the

year when you need to reinvest make

upgrades to to operations um your supply

chain partners and also your internal

team and so uh when it comes to a growth

standpoint I think I I I haven't been

telling my team um that we want to do

double digit percentage growth in this

environment especially when interest

rates are very high capital is very

expensive however ever. Um, with the the

additional profit that we make, we do

want to reinvest it hopefully within the

next year or two. Um, so that we see

that um, big jump in growth again. Um, I

think what what we're proud of is we're

doing the bare minimum. And what I mean

by that is only selling on our website,

just recently launching on Amazon with

only one or two products. Um, only

marketing the product in the US. There's

so many opportunities that we could do

geographically or through a through a

channel standpoint. And so if we need to

have those growth, we can. But right

now, I think we just want to make sure

that we're ready to have that next jump,

especially in this expensive capital

environment.

>> Yeah, I think that's so smart. A lot of

times I see people trying to use channel

expansion as a way to solve the

underlying growth of the core channel

and it's always like, whoa, whoa, hold

on. If this isn't healthy, stacking more

on top of it generally isn't a solution.

Um, so as you think about the next area

of growth, Rondo, do you think it comes

from channel expansion as you described

like wholesale, retail, Amazon? Do you

think it's product expansion? Do you

think it's core growth on the on.com for

socks? Like what where do you see it as

you look forward on the brand in terms

of how much growth is coming out of each

of those areas?

>> Yeah, absolutely. I I think um I mean

our our numbers speaks for itself. We

have a very good um sock product suite

and so we're very confident that as we

launch more different um sock products

like we have a really exciting product

coming out early next year within the

yoga pilates space I think naturally we

will be able to um um see topline growth

from just existing products and also new

products that are coming out. Um I think

we're also looking into new geographic

regions. I I think the UK and the

Japanese market I think makes the most

sense for us. So, we're reviewing

internally. When it comes to Amazon,

like we know that not many people buy

their socks from a brand website. They

they're more comfortable going to

Amazon. And so, we need to figure out a

very good strategy to make sure that

we're not taking too many customers away

from our DTOC site, but also um there's

definitely u benefits and perks to

purchasing something on Amazon. And so,

we'll we'll need to have a very sharp

strategy from that standpoint. being

very honest with you, we've only been

selling for 10 to 14 days. And so as we

see more data, we'll definitely work

with you, your team, and also internally

to make sure that we grow on both sides.

>> Yeah. One of the things that I see

brands doing in this moment is a lot

there's a lot of conversation about like

TAM like total addressable market. I I

like to think of it more of like the

profitably addressable market which is

to say that for every product category

how much volume can you produce while

holding the constraint on profitable

acquisition that defines some growth

expectation for a category and then you

go okay with that foundation in place

this healthy profitable thing now where

do I expand beyond to increase the

overall business growth and that's what

helps you lead to okay now I need to

product expand and it sounds like that's

both on the variant level so maybe new

colors There's slightly different styles

of socks. Let's call that the core

category. Then there's categorical

expansion of product. So you mentioned

headwear, maybe even like different

material socks. You guys launched marino

wool versus organic cotton. Like you go

sort of slightly adjacent. Then there's

you also brought up geographic

expansion. This is another thing I think

is really important. It's like okay,

what geographies can we look at as

opening up new markets for the core base

of SKUs? Then there's distribution

expansion. All of these represent

mechanisms of additional potential value

both on the core business as well as

then thinking about how the business

expands and I love that like sort of set

of trellis of growth different

opportunities versus everyone just going

next year I have to spend more on meta

at a better ROS against the same product

set like that just like for many brands

it just isn't real like very clearly

there's some ceiling to that as a growth

mechanism but I'd be curious what

geographies do you guys think are

interesting right now where are you

currently growing and which ones do you

think repres present the most

opportunity.

>> I think thankfully because everyone

wears socks, our the distribution by

state um is very even. It's very normal

normally distributed. So like if you

think of all the bigger states that has

the biggest population, it's it's it's

in that ranking order. Um unfortunately

when it comes to noshow socks, people

don't wear it in the winter. And so like

we we have not tried to market the

product in Canada yet. we will ship it

to Canada. But I think when we um scale

our crew sock, which we just launched,

like the longer socks, I think Canada is

a region that we do want to start

marketing more into. And then yeah, like

when it comes to like our other products

that are not no-show socks, I think all

50 states plus Canada is an immediate um

market to test and then see how we can

scale. We're very interested in seeing

what the data will show compared to our

no-show sock um data. Um but yeah, I

would say North America still ton of

potential, a lot of opportunities and

then as we naturally expand it to new

countries or new continents. I think

it'll be from day one again and we'll

we'll see what data we collect.

>> Have you have you considered Australia

at all? Like because the what you just

described sort of the inverse

seasonality um feels like it could be a

way to help smooth out some of that

hyper seasonal distinction. Have you

guys played around with that at all? You

know, I I I love Australia from a brand

standpoint because a lot of the like the

biggest brands, the coolest brands come

from Australia and and our constraint

has always been human capital

constraints. And so if I can find the

right person, the right like partner to

work with, absolutely. I think Australia

would be perfect for no-show socks. And

yeah, I I've been we have a we have some

investors that are based in Australia

and they've been also like sharing our

products to their friends and family and

and they love it. And so Australia

definitely is an is a country that we we

do want to potentially expand into. All

right. So if you're out there and you

heard that if you're a distributor or

you helped launch brands into local

geographies in Australia, chat with

Daniel because I think they've got a

great product that we'd love some

summer. We'd love some winter summer out

here into the into the old P&L would be

nice. So, um I've got another question

approaching Q4 as a product that's not

like a super obvious gifting product

like where it's like I know there's sort

of the the old joke that like everybody

gets socks in their stocking or whatever

it might be, but like what's your place

in a Black Friday, Cyber Monday gifting

environment and maybe think about this

for brands who like are in a similar

space where it's like, man, we're not

the obvious cool gift of the year. Like

how do we take advantage of this moment?

And how important is that period for

you?

>> Yeah. Like that's what we were worried

about too. Like when I remember our

first Black Friday, Cyber Monday season

that we went through with Ono, like

while we were planning, we were like,

"Hey, we're not selling crew socks.

We're not sending selling long like

Santa socks, but like our I think 35 to

40% of our revenue comes from Q4 alone."

And so and and until recently, we were

primarily only selling no-show socks.

And so, um, I I I still and I guess for

us to to do well in this season is

because we also have holiday offerings.

And so, one thing that we do every year

is we have a laundry bag product that's

shaped like our socks um that if you buy

a 12-pack bundle um it you'll get a free

laundry bag and it and we make it

festive by choosing the colors

differently every year. And so, that's

been a huge um a higher AOV driver for

us. Um, it's it's a lot of pro customers

that love our products really want the

laundry bag and because and they also

know that you can only get it this year

and it'll be a different color next

year. And so I think that's really

helped us too. And so yeah, originally I

was worried that people wouldn't buy

no-show socks during in during the Q4

season, but I think because people like

to gift socks in general during Q4, no

socks also sell as well.

>> Yeah, you got to you can find your place

in the story. There's almost anything

that can find its place into a gifting

story. So many people are looking for

cool little ways to offer anything into

the space. So, like you said, little

colors in the laundry basket, little

imagery of stocks sticking out of

stockings, like there's lots of ways to

find your place in the story. Um, so I'd

be curious. So, as a as a former banker,

Daniel, tell me about how you look at

and manage your business on a day-to-day

basis. Like, what do you look at that

determines whether you're feeling good

or bad about how things are going? like

give me the set of metrics and things

that you care about that drive your

emotional well-being as a former bank or

CEO.

>> Yeah. No, I I like to approach um

operating a brand like a game. Um like

playing a game. I think it's because

Shopify's UX makes it very founder

friendly. Like that dashboard whenever

you get an order, you get you get like

that that jump like that jumping dot.

Like I used to look at that like

religiously. I still do during like like

peak holiday seasons. And so I think um

and and as you know like when you play a

game like it's it's never easy, right?

And so like when hardships comes, how do

you fix that fire quickly? How do you

fight that back? That's constantly what

I do and that keeps me going um as a

founder that's been doing this for over

six years now. And so I would say that

finance mentality of like getting things

done um and then making sure that you

execute and and it's polished. That

mentality is very different from what

you hear from hey when you're startup

when you're a startup when you're in the

startup space nothing nothing's 100. You

you just give give 80% and then and and

then you'll just continue make upgrades

as as you go. I think that mentality is

is not what I tend to lean lean towards

too. But um I think there's a balance,

right? I think I have great teammates

that um make sure that I don't only

think about perfection all the time. Um

and uh so yeah, like I think that

balance really helps me. But having a

good team, making sure that I'm I'm

monitoring the right metrics, um making

sure that if if any numbers off, is it a

is it a technical issue or is it

something that we're doing wrong?

Figuring that out and fixing it is is

what I tend to monitor on a day

day-to-day basis.

>> If so, imagine I'm a aspiring DTOC

founder. Maybe I'm thinking of quitting

my banking job next week. What is the

key to success today? Like how do I win?

What do you think it requires of a brand

that's considering opening up and

launching into our world today? Uh what

give me give me the key to success.

Key to success I I I mean I think

success is very subjective. And so

number one defining what success means

to you at least in the first one or two

years. I think that's most important.

And then number two, um I think you

brought this up earlier in the podcast,

but making sure you're doing something

very very niche is very important. I

think if I started with a ton of

different soft and debating, I would not

be here today. Like I would probably be

back in finance or I probably would have

gotten an MBA. But I think um doing

something that's very sharp is very

important because if you're doing

something very broad, people won't even

there's so many new brands, there's so

many different DTOC companies, like they

won't even remember you or they won't

even know who you are or even if they

been they've heard your story multiple

times. And so um I think a lot of ex

finance people or ex like corporate

people, they want to do flashy things.

Um the startup space is not flashy.

What's more important is being very

niche and then religiously looking at

your numbers and your data and making

sure you have quick enhancements to

everything that you do. I think that's

most important. And I get the question

all the time like, "Hey, Daniel, when

did you know that um you you needed to

quit?" like as a as someone that has

gone through this, you'll know like

you'll know that one more day like if I

if I sit in this cubicle that I'm going

to like you'll know and then and then

when your butt tells you to stand up

then you stand up and you leave. I think

that's what I personally experience and

that's what I would tell a a finance

person right now considering quitting

their job.

>> Well, finance people, we need you here.

But I I think if there's anything you

take away and I think this is so right

is that so often I see brands who are

trying to be everything to everybody

right away and the idea that you need to

be very specifically solving some

problem for your initial fora into

customers. This Daniel and I we were

just in yours and I even think they have

further to go and niching down even

further like we're discussing what's the

distinction between men and women using

no-show socks. What's the distinction

for a golfer versus somebody who's you

know a runner versus a hiker. There's

all these ways in which the story gets

unlocked, the more personal it becomes

to me. And the more your product can

speak to really specific problems. It

cuts through the noise and feels for me.

Um, and so I think that's great advice

that so many founders should be more

specific and they're afraid that it

somehow takes them out of a big market

opportunity, but the reality is it's the

way you start narrow and widen like you

don't go wide first. And so I think

that's great advice is to even in a

category that feels lost like socks,

there's a story for somebody where your

thing can be a better solution, a better

mousetrap to a specific problem they're

dealing with.

>> So I love that.

>> Um, yeah, leggings that Yeah, Lul

Lululemon started with just leggings,

everyone. Like Nike started with just

shoes. Like you don't have to do

athleisure and do everything from day

one. It's going to be so much harder to

manage all those relationships and also

market all those products. Unless you

have the existing customer base or you

have those fans, I would say and so

yeah, like starting niche is is

definitely the way to go.

>> We like when we started Kao, it was

married and engaged firefighters. That

was like our first community, right?

Like and you want to talk about there

was a blog called firefighter wives that

was like we're talking about a blog that

was read by 2,000 people a month, right?

That was a small community, but it was

the exact right customer to start,

right? And that opened up very engaged

police officers, very engaged people,

EMTs, right? Like there's a very natural

progression that you can follow from a

niche understanding where people are

just adjacent to the problem and you can

grow out from there. And so I think so

often those ear the solution to any

stalled problem is usually that you've

become a little too generic that

nobody's really identifying with it. And

the the path back forward is to get more

narrow, get more specific. And with the

way ad creative works right now and you

can divide this up so easily. You can

create these really unique experiences

uh through it. And so that's a lot of

what Daniel and I are talking about from

the creative front as their brand

expands into men and women at different

points in time and how we can do it. So

here's what I would say to y'all. Go

check out Onondo one. Beautiful

photography, freaking awesome, beautiful

brand. Amazing product and try it out.

Daniel, any last words that you'd leave

everybody with before we head out today?

um we have the best notion softs on the

market hands down and and and work with

CTC like um like we wouldn't be here we

wouldn't be where we are this year

without CTC and I always go to your team

on Taylor like for advice on like even

hiring and building culture and so I

think that's something that I really

appreciate and and I I look forward to

continue working with you guys.

>> Thanks man.

>> Yeah, you have an appreciation. And you

clearly like you're one of the people

that I I like to notice that you have a

you have a desire to learn and so you

want to put yourself around people where

you can learn anything from them and

that's really cool. I love that trait

about you. It's something I want to

continue to embody myself is that like

it's not just about the the vendor

relationship that we have. It's like

what do we have to offer each other

beyond that and so I appreciate that

man. Uh project the chance to work with

you guys and can't wait to see what you

keep doing.

>> Likewise. Thanks Taylor. I appreciate

what you just said too. All right. Take

care y'all. Thank you.