From Live PD to Paramount: Lessons in Storytelling with Malik Johnson

A lot of music docs can feel like they're vanity projects for an artist, but I like to think the ones I've worked on and the ones I've been a part of, whether at an early stage of development or I've seen through production, none of

them feel like that. I think a lot of times I want to get to the core of the person and also like you know what the A story is this, but what's the B story?

How can we Trojan horse something in?

>> Hello, welcome to the Unscripted Files.

My name is Maline Cunningham. I am a development producer in the unscripted industry, bringing you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment. Today I

have a development executive on that started out filming his grandfather's church sermons that gave him the itch.

He got into live PD early in his career and talks about how that experience watching a live feed trying to figure out the story quickly informed the decisions he makes on some of the larger projects that he's known for. Millie

Vanilly do as we speak. How music got free. Lala, the story of Laala Palooa.

free. Lala, the story of Laala Palooa.

We talk all about what is up in the doc marketplace right now. His thoughts on music, sports, cultural doc, what actually moves the needle when he was on the buyer side? What made him excited

when it came to a pitch? What does it mean to package a project? So much

goodness in this conversation. Cannot

wait for you to listen to my chat with Malik Johnson.

I won't pick my nose.

>> Okay, that'll make two of us. Uh, Malik,

welcome to the Unscripted Files. How are

you?

>> I'm good. Thank you uh for having me.

I'm excited to uh to chat.

>> I'm excited to talk to you, too. You

were We were connected through a former guest and that's always kind of the best thing cuz you get the automatic, you know, blue check verification.

>> I'm happy to be here. hopefully um I live up to whatever maybe hype was said.

Oh >> yes, absolutely. So you you're a development executive, a producer. I

mean, I just want to hear I I I would love for you to paint me a picture of of how you got into the industry before we get into everything else.

>> Yeah, I um Yeah, I I always knew I wanted to work in TV and um film in some capacity. Um, like my grandfather, he

capacity. Um, like my grandfather, he gave me a a camera when I was like 12 and like had me record his church sermons and then that sort of like sparked something. I haven't been to

sparked something. I haven't been to church since then, but it sparked something um in me and my interest in sort of like what this industry is. Like

back then I was recording his sermons and then editing them and putting them on YouTube for him. So then I was like, "Oh, like can I make a job out of this?"

So I started just watching a ton of movies, researching about the industry and learning so much. But essentially

after after college, I got a job starting uh I was working at MSNBC. Um

and I was working as an anchor producer, which is essentially a glorified um PA.

Um and when I was working there, I was working for Joy Reed. Um and Joy Reed, amazing journalist. And when I was

amazing journalist. And when I was working with her, I sort of let her know like news isn't like necessarily where I want to stay. Like I'm interested like everyone is in sort of like politics and

whatnot. Um but Joy actually had told me

whatnot. Um but Joy actually had told me she was a docu she like went to school for document uh film making essentially doc documentaries and I was like oh like

I did too. knew we had that mutual interest and she uh was making a dock uh while I was working for and she asked me to help out on the side and then after I did that I was like oh I definitely

don't want to work in news. Um so then I started like navigating ways to sort of work in non-fiction and docs full-time and then that led me to work at like Dine and NBC News studios and then the

rest is history.

Oh my gosh, the recording the sermons, even having a camera at that age and knowing how to operate it, understanding editing like is kind of a gift, even if it, you know, the the all the other

stuff maybe wasn't. But that's so interesting. And so you got into was it

interesting. And so you got into was it at Deline Studios that you got into live PD?

>> Yeah. So, I I was working at Dineine, and I've actually never said this publicly, and it doesn't matter now, but when I was working at Dine, I wasn't supposed to be working another job cuz I

was full-time. And especially working a

was full-time. And especially working a job that was a competitor, but a buddy of mine from college, his brother was like, "Hey, do you know anyone that works in TV and film? Live PD is looking

for like APs." And then the buddy from college messaged me. He was like, "Hey, you're in New York. I know you work in TV. would you be interested in doing

TV. would you be interested in doing this? So I started working at Live PD

this? So I started working at Live PD while I was working at Dline on the low.

So I was at Dline Monday through Friday and then I was doing live PD Friday and Saturday. So Sunday was like my only day

Saturday. So Sunday was like my only day off but I did that on and off the live PD thing on and off for like four years and it's a really interesting show. I

know half of the America watches it religiously. Essentially my job was to

religiously. Essentially my job was to watch the live feed that would come in.

I was usually in um South Carolina or Oklahoma, I believe. And as that feed came in from like the cops stopping individuals, I would then have to start building a story out of it.

>> It was essentially part logging, part story producing. So, it was me watching

story producing. So, it was me watching why they stopped the person, what interesting things happened, and then what's a good point time to get out of the story, and then okay, is there anything interesting for us to come back

to? So, I was having to do that, you

to? So, I was having to do that, you know, within like maybe 20 seconds of seeing a feed because that control room is like super super active and the

executive producers and the directors are just yelling out who is this, who is that, who is that? So, it was a really really interesting time and a great way I think to sort of learn storytelling

techniques. Um, while it's different cuz

techniques. Um, while it's different cuz it's live versus like building a story out in a documentary or any other traditional way, it still sort of like taught me things that I think I sort of

hold till today.

>> Yeah. I mean, what a way to sharpen your skill set and like be decisive and able to understand your entry point, know when it's time to leave. And so, how did

you take that from, you know, what you're doing with YPD? You mentioned

South Carolina and that's where I grew up. And I'm like, Jesus, I'm sure that

up. And I'm like, Jesus, I'm sure that was an interesting live feed for you.

But >> I have stories for days on >> the things I've heard just while a camera is recording, but like you're

you're police officer and you don't sort of care to a bit, but also, you know, that thing is never going on television because it's bad for the show and for me. But no, I also will say like

me. But no, I also will say like definitely some like trauma from that because um you know it's like the south cops, you can imagine the insane things

that are are said. Um but yeah, I had to like put that behind me because I was like I personally don't like I think like anyone you want to be >> happy about what you're making.

>> And that was one thing I always was like they pay me really I'll be honest they pay decent for two days of work. And I

was just like that pay doesn't outweigh sort of my like moral compass to a degree.

>> Right. Right. I can't imagine the things you have seen. So much of your portfolio and what you've worked on is is documentaries in music. Like talk to me about that transition and how you were

able to sort of apply the blueprint that you you had here to to what you were doing with with your music docs.

>> Yeah. I think the one thing I learned about live PD or what it taught me was like letting a story breathe. You know,

live is is in the title. So, a lot of time it's just knowing when to hop into a story and when to get out, but just letting the moment breathe and because um you know, like I said, there's

cameras and cops. You face crazy things.

But I think that show really just taught me like, hey, watch what happens, sort of let it breathe, and then you sort of understand when to get out. And I think I took that a lot into other jobs I had

in development which was a lot of you know development is really just ideating and then building out an idea and I think that's helped even in my writing just like all right sometimes you know

when you write a treatment or an outline a deck whatever you can get really sort of like academic almost and I think often times when I go back to what I

understood about live producing on live PD it was a lot of like all All right.

You can't just let something, you know, fully happen because there will be es and flows and things get boring. So, I

think I took just like understanding what moments hit and what don't, especially with the live PD when you have to actively think about the audience, right? Like a lot of that is

audience, right? Like a lot of that is like, okay, is the audience getting bored right now? And I think when I go when I've gone into my other work, I think as someone's reading a treatment or a deck I've written, it's like, okay,

are they bored by this point? And it's

always trying to keep some sort of juicy or interesting factoid in the writing or in the story that helps people really really stay engaged.

>> Well, and that's such a again it's a skill because when you're when it's your work and you're deep in it, it's hard to zoom out and like and make those cuts,

right? like really take away sort of the

right? like really take away sort of the the B minus uh content and like make sure you're just keeping the A stuff in there. And

um you're right. I think a lot of those sort of materials, development material materials can get and feel so dense because you're trying to like overexlain why this is so great and awesome and

it's the time to tell it is now and here's all the, you know, the deep and dirty things. But I think it's a really

dirty things. But I think it's a really incredible lesson that you learned early on was like how less is more.

>> It's also a matter of collaboration, right? So like

right? So like >> I hate to keep going back to live PD, but like the live PD of it all is like you have your story and then there are six or eight other counties that you

also have to work with to ensure they get airtime. You also have them to rely

get airtime. You also have them to rely on a bit. And I think that type of collaboration also goes into the work I've tried to do where it's like I can have an idea. I can think it's the

greatest idea ever. I can think this is the best way to write it. But I also really rely on the teams I've been a part of to be like, "Hey, can you take a look at this? What works? What doesn't?"

And yeah, I think collaboration works as well as just like understanding when to get in and what to get out because like again, you can be the most talented writer, whatever in the world, but if you're not allowing other ideas to

influence what you think or do, you sort of like sit in a box. And I think you can sort of like get in front of yourself from things being like as great or as as successful as they can be.

>> Yeah. It's just such a testament to like how every experience is cumulative. You

know what I mean? and like like it to like it everything is a building block even if you don't maybe feel like it in the moment. Um, and and I think that's

the moment. Um, and and I think that's so cool just because Live Pedia is so different than what you do now, uh, at face value, right?

You know, you you're talking about collaboration and creatives. I mean,

were there are there any creatives out there, you know, directors, producers that you feel like you really looked up to as you were sort of getting into the

stories of music docs that really maybe shaped your your your tone, your preference like or or just that you sort of looked at as a north star.

>> There weren't necessarily like people like filmmakers or anything that I was like especially in the doc space that I was like oh I absolutely look at them as

my north star for like the work I want to do. There have been some since you

to do. There have been some since you know working in the industry for 10 years. Like I think everyone I've ever

years. Like I think everyone I've ever worked on a film with, I think I've taken a bit of their sort of expertise or their knowledge and I've tried to take it along the way with me. Whether

it's, you know, um, Alex Stapleton, who I did a film with, um, um, this guy Luke I did a film with about Millie Vanilli, Jason Harper, who's a good friend and I

think one of the best in the world. Um,

yeah, there's a ton of just like I think 10 years in to my career, there's a lot of people I now sort of like take aspects of or like when I go into developing or producing something, I'm

like, how would they do this? What would

be their approach? because they are such successful, you know, directors that I think the best way to approach sort of like development is like what would they sort of do to this to sort of like

really juzj it up and that could get whether a buyer excited for it or if I'm working at a buyer, what can get my boss excited for it.

>> Yeah.

Are you when it comes to music, do you tend to be more drawn to like the the the mythology of like a Millie Vanilli or the business side sort of of the

industry.

>> I think I'm more interested in the mythology of it. But it's funny when it comes to like sports stocks, I'm more interested in the business side of it.

But for music, I'm more interested in the mythology because like the concept of just being an artist in that regard, being an entertainer is like

fascinating. like what you have to do

fascinating. like what you have to do sacrifice to like become one of the best to for someone to even know your name or for you to have a fan base is rather interesting. And I've always been

interesting. And I've always been interested in trying to find ways into those stories, but not in a vanity way.

You know, a lot of music docs can feel like they're vanity projects for an artist, but I like to think the ones I've worked on and the ones I've been a part of, whether at an early stage of development or I've seen through

production, none of them feel like that.

I think a lot of times I want to get to the core of the person and also like you know what the A story is this but what's the B story? How can we Trojan horse something in? And I think a lot about

something in? And I think a lot about the Millie Vanilli doc for example like on the surface that was a story about this scandal you know that erupted the

music industry and okay yeah that's great a lot of people were interested in that but you know just behind that it's really a story about race and how these

like two black guys from Ger one's from Germany ones uh from France became scapegoats for like white music executives and I think that is something that I often find myself looking at is

like, okay, this is the story that's on the surface, but when we just peel back the layer a bit, what else is there? And

yeah, >> that's so interesting. I wonder, you know, you talk about music versus sports and like where your interest lies. I

want do you think it's because making it in entertainment feels so much more

abstract and like uh it's based on so many other factors versus in sports it's concrete. It's stats. It's power. It's

concrete. It's stats. It's power. It's

winning. Like it's it feels a bit more concrete than like sort of striking gold and making it big when it comes to entertainment. And so the so the lead up

entertainment. And so the so the lead up to that just can maybe be so much richer maybe in a sense.

>> Yeah, I think it's part of that and like yeah like an artist it's really an individual story, right? Like unless

you're doing you know a film on a group but also how all those people sort of converged into one is also individual stories that then connect into one. Um,

yeah, and I think sports sometimes it's really this larger story of unless it's like, you know, the top 1% of athletes, the Serenas, the Federers, the Nadals,

the Jordans, um, the Tigers, but a lot of times it is sort of this like, oh, this is a team effort. And yeah, I not that I'm less interested in that, but I guess yeah, to your point, I am

interested in sort of like, oh, the individ individualistic idea of how this person came to this moment and how they got there. And yeah, it's rather

got there. And yeah, it's rather fascinating.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I I I think I think I've never really thought about that. So

really interesting you asked me that question. a little bit stumped. But

question. a little bit stumped. But

yeah, I think that is something that um I guess maybe on the surface I haven't always realized, but yeah, the individual story opposed to sort of like this team effort is something that I

think is Yeah. rather interesting.

>> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. What sports I mean you talk about letting a story breathe like and I mean what are there some sports documentaries out there that you're like this is so perfectly done

and or or just it's in your Okay. Yes.

Go.

I think two of the greatest sports docs I've ever watched come from one director.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. Um, one is called Outcry. It was

on Showtime. It's actually I think it's like an six or eight parter.

>> Okay.

>> Um, and then the other one is called It's about this guy Christian Dawkins.

>> I'm looking at I'm looking it up now cuz I'm like, how have I not heard of this?

Wow, this is intense. Yeah, it's like and that's sort of the thing I was mentioning before, right? Like on the surface it's a sports doc. It's about a

local high school football team, >> but it's a scandal, right? It's scandal

into sort of like did this thing happen or or didn't it? And it sort of like touches on one how people protect athletes I think at times, >> right? Even in a local high school

>> right? Even in a local high school setting.

>> Mhm.

And yeah, I think it's just like one of the most amazing films I've ever seen.

It it doesn't oftent times I think because it's a sports story and a true crime story. Yeah. Oftent times I think

crime story. Yeah. Oftent times I think true crime especially can just sort of like tell you who the culprit is and you sort of are just like along for the ride because it's entertaining.

>> Um but this story specifically, there's never a moment where you're like, >> "No, it's this person. Oh no, it's that person." And it really just like leaves

person." And it really just like leaves it up to the viewer to make that decision. And I've watched the film

decision. And I've watched the film multiple times and I've always just been like I don't really know what I believe.

>> Don't you love that though a little bit?

Like there's so I was talking to I had the guests of you know the Cosby doc on and a couple of other things where it's like two things can be true at once.

This person made a huge cultural impact but this also exists.

Cosby Doc is amazing because I remember watching that >> a couple of years ago with some friends.

I think it was at Sundance and someone got a pass uh for it and we watched that. It was like 20 of us in a in a

that. It was like 20 of us in a in a apartment in LA and we were watching that uh that dock and it was funny. We

were all going to go out after but after watching it we were like >> no we all should like go home and really think about things. But to your point, that film is amazing because it really asks the question, and I think the best

way that's ever been documented is, can you separate the art from the artist?

And you can't, and I feel like what the film is trying to tell you is you can't really separate the art from the artist because while that artist is making art, they're also doing these bad crimes.

>> And you can't really ignore one and highlight the other because they are converged. They almost are able to do

converged. They almost are able to do the crimes because they know that the art is maybe the escape and people will forgive them because of that. But yeah,

that's a phenomenal film. W Kamal Bell did amazing work on that.

>> Yes. Yes. And and I but that I do love how I love films that don't make the decision for you. Like it presents the facts, right? And it presents like um

facts, right? And it presents like um well like our mutual friend Cole, right, with Magic City, it was like there was a lot of nuance in that as well. Was this

music video empowering for women? Was it

disgraceful? Like, and so I really love storytelling that lets it breathe and also like is sort of like, hey, I'm going to present this to you and I'm going to force you to think about it and

not draw a conclusion for you.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Nothing that's too heavy-handed, but it's also not like trying to confuse you too hard.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And so, this director did Outcry. Did you mention the other one

Outcry. Did you mention the other one that they did?

>> Yeah. It's called The Scheme. It's a

story about this basketball NBA insider Christian Dark Dawkins who basically hustled the FBI and embarrassed them to a degree that I

don't think has ever been documented.

But it's essentially about college basketball coaches who were doing a little payforplay to get access to recruits. And essentially Christian

recruits. And essentially Christian Dawkins acted as the mule where he would give access, they would pay him and then he would give them access to these players. But the interesting thing is

players. But the interesting thing is like he never really committed a crime because he never was like actually representing these players. He just like

knew them from around town and promised things that he could like sort of give but never really. and just enough people

in the NCAA were sort of bamboozled by him that they gave him all this money and then the FBI as they often do and you see with maybe other major scandals

that are happening right now should have gone after the coaches but they didn't they went after him and he sort of is like he was the scapegoat for that entire NCAA pay-forplay situation

but the same director did that did the ski man outcry Pat Candelis and those are like two of my favorite sports talks ever because they're not just about, you

know, an athlete being triumphant or like, you know, Jordan's um, you know, pneumonia game when he had, you know, when he was really sick. It's really

like we're telling the story that sports is at the center of it, but there are other elements and yeah, I just I really just connect with stories like that.

>> Okay, so music and sports, these are two like like when it comes to doc sports is like the mandate right now. I mean, it has just gotten so crazy. Uh, it's it's trickling down into dating shows. Like,

I mean, it's everywhere. So, then what do you feel like in those genres like actually moves the needle when it comes to getting traction? Is it cultural

impact? Is it uh is it uh I don't know,

impact? Is it uh is it uh I don't know, crime and scandal? Like, what do you think actually moves the needle with these genres?

I think when it comes to music right now, you're seeing less and less music docks. Um, I think there was a solid

docks. Um, I think there was a solid five years where music, I mean, true crime has been the dominant genre within non-fiction for probably the past 15

years, maybe longer. Um, but with music, I think it had a couple of years, but a lot of those stories have just been like used and abused and you don't really see

as many people buying the music stories anymore because they're really waiting for the top, >> I think 1% of the artists to like come out and do something amazing. And then

for sports, what I think really is resonating right now is there's no more like inseason follows because that's sort of a >> No. Yeah. No, I mean and I know the team

>> No. Yeah. No, I mean and I know the team that made Starting Five. Amazing people.

>> But like the cheer, the starting five, those all. And then it was everything

those all. And then it was everything was it's X. It's starting five but X or it's cheer but X. And we

>> Yeah. Everything was like last chance you but this last.

Um but with sports right now and I think celebrity is going to sell because network execs want to know that you have a built-in audience. they're going to

more likely than not sort of buy something if they know, you know, non-fiction and docs aren't marketed as heavily as scripted stuff. And I've like sat in meetings where this has been the

case where if you're going to invest in a project, it's okay, is there a built-in audience already? Can I, you know, knowing that you're not going to get as big of a marketing budget, can we

rely on the fans and the audience of this person, this athlete or this artist to really market it for us and then do sort of like free marketing? And I think that's the stuff that's resonating right now and is who is the person, what's

their audience, and how big is their audience? And will their audience engage

audience? And will their audience engage as much? I think another thing with in

as much? I think another thing with in sports right now that no one's really I think focusing in on is like I said the the inseason follow is not going to

happen because once that airs that season's already done you watched it live. What is the real goal of someone

live. What is the real goal of someone watching it after the fact? It's like oh the inside look but it's like all these artists do interviews anyway.

I think there's like a business side of sports that is sort of untapped. I think

when you look at a film like Air or Moneyball, those are like films that audiences are constantly talking about and I think if you look at sort of that in a non-fiction way, I think you can

really find some interest and some interesting angles into stories because like like I said, Air was a phenomenal um you know film, but that's based on a book by Phil Knight who you know he

wrote about the the the founding of you know Nike. You know that's a non-fiction

know Nike. You know that's a non-fiction book. It can easily become a

book. It can easily become a documentary. Moneyball also based off a

documentary. Moneyball also based off a book can easily become a documentary and the access is already there. You have

the trust of the journalist. So I think a lot of going forward I think if there's a there should be a larger focus in on how can we tell stories that focus on either the business side of it or

what are things that have proof of concept either a book's written about them a really interesting article that got a lot of traction which I mean that's not new. Articles have are a major part of non-fiction and have been

for the past 10 years. Um but I think looking at these other ways into sports because people are so engaged in sports and I think even if you look at how much people bet right that's really people being interested in the front sort of

like the front of house of sports it's really will this person do this will this do will they do that and that's really just a business interest so I think if you sort of look at sports films and documentaries

>> as that way is like what are other ways to engage in that like everything that's I'm sure someone's going to make a doc on betting soon right and like that's something that's probably going to do amazing because people are interested in

it. So I think really the business side

it. So I think really the business side of sports is like the untapped part of the non-fiction and sports space that I think people will start focusing in on and if they don't I will and hopefully

make >> Yeah. No, I agree with you. But I think

>> Yeah. No, I agree with you. But I think a lot of it is people are scared and like universities and obviously >> you know franchise brands and things like that are very protective of how it all works. But

all works. But >> I think it's also with some of that stuff, especially the betting stuff when it comes to non-fiction, is a lot of these places you're trying to sell to

have betting ecosystems or partnerships with those places. So, they don't really want to, you know, bite the hand that ultimately feeds them.

>> Mhm. Yeah. Exactly. A lot of everything is connected. It always feels it feels

is connected. It always feels it feels that way a lot lately. when you look at the projects that you've been on, what if you can compare them side by side, like what do you feel like the

connective tissue is?

>> Um, I think the connective tissue in a lot of the projects I've worked on, I'd say some of the ones that have maybe resonated the most and the ones I've

like felt especially proud of has been like centering black stories. I think,

you know, while I don't avoid telling non black stories, I think naturally I want to highlight those stories because historically they've been overlooked.

And at times I've, you know, where at times when I've been in a seat where my voice can help influence a decision, I have felt honestly a need to uplift

those stories because in rooms I've sat in or places I've worked, you know, there are a million people that'll champion a story about, you know, a nonPOC individual. Um, but when I've

nonPOC individual. Um, but when I've been blessed to sit in those seats, I feel like it is almost like a duty to highlight those and really champion them

because if not me, then who? Um, so I'd say, yeah, I think like centering um sort of like blackness in a way that is

entertaining but also like digestible and and even if it's maybe not, um, still just like something that is meant for us and by us. I think they see that

a bit in, you know, I worked on a film with Jason Harper about rap music in the first amendment that the Millie Vanilli story.

>> We did one on, you know, uh, the piracy era of music called How Music Got Free.

And the central character that is a black man from North Carolina who essentially completely, you know, destroyed the CD industry.

>> Yeah. He like started the pirating.

>> No.

This guy >> the father of Limewire like >> Yeah. D Glover is an amazing individual,

>> Yeah. D Glover is an amazing individual, but yeah, those stories I just I feel like oftent times connect with me up for obvious reasons. I'm a black man. Um,

obvious reasons. I'm a black man. Um,

but I just also feel like, you know, traditionally those projects would maybe have gotten overlooked and I'll speak to them. I think a couple of those projects

them. I think a couple of those projects I've mentioned were projects that a lot of my peers at other networks had passed on, but I believed in the filmmaker and I believed in the story and they

ultimately did well on the platforms at the time I worked there.

>> Well, and that's because when you have passion like it nothing can really match that.

And so like, thank God it didn't land at any of those other buyers who wouldn't have maybe given it half of the passion and investment that you did. You

know what I mean? Like I think it's so I think you said for you by you and I think that that's like we there can be a lot of content that is >> for you about you but not necessarily by

you. And I think that's like the third

you. And I think that's like the third pon component that's so critical. I'm

curious, you know, you talked about a little bit about being on the buyer's side and sort of, you know, I'm curious about your buyer's point of view and and I can't imagine how many pitches that

you heard, but what stands out to you like, you know, when you're in a pitch, you know, is it that passion I just mentioned? Is it does it is it just

mentioned? Is it does it is it just black and white for you and you're like, uh, it's the access, it's this. I mean,

I don't know. I feel like you actually have taken a lot of risks. You know, I know that that Jason was an editor. it

was his first time directing. And so

like it seems like you you're you're taking some risks. You're going for projects others are passing on. And so

so so what is it that makes you do that?

What stands out to you in a pitch?

>> Um I think even before the like pitch or like if I do take a pitch and then before elevating it cuz I've never been like a sole decision maker anywhere

I've worked. I've always answered up

I've worked. I've always answered up >> to people who have more years experience and and um power um than me, but I think

everywhere they've entrusted my ability.

But I think I would say what I try to really understand is you know story can be amazing or not even that interesting in the pitch. I like think most times than

the pitch. I like think most times than not when I really believe in a story it's 100% the filmmaker. It's 100% who they are and I try to get to know them.

It's simple but like you know everyone in the industry does the coffees, the drinks, the whatever. I like really enjoy doing that. Not for like the expense account of it all but it's

really like okay if we're going to spend money and time for a year and then a million plus dollars on working on something do I actually believe in the vision you're selling and do I believe

in you? So I think before there is an

in you? So I think before there is an access conversation before there um you know an archive of conversation it's really trying to understand the person and the perfect example I can give is

when I did as we speak with Jason he had like I think he had pitched the project to me and like one other person on my team at the time in a smaller capacity

but then we had to pitch u the president of global music at Paramount Plus at that time and before that I was like this guy afterwards the president is going to be like, "All right, Malik, do you really believe in this? Do you

really trust him?" I got lunch with Jason and one of the producers and just really sat there and barely talked about the project, but really just talked to Jason about himself and then a bit about

the project. And then from that, I had

the project. And then from that, I had the I think confidence to be like, "All right, yo, I really believe in this guy." And I had known Jason's work

guy." And I had known Jason's work before that. I had um watched Down a

before that. I had um watched Down a Dark Stairwell. I'd obviously saw the

Dark Stairwell. I'd obviously saw the Kanye doc genius that Jason edited. And

you know, kudos to >> I can't imagine what that looks like.

>> Yeah, editing that is probably >> what a responsibility and like and so it's and so again we talk nuance like I mean what a feat to be able to

like that's that is a crazy responsibility and again so multifaceted.

>> Yeah. But if you ever get the chance to talk to a Jason or I'm as the kids say glazing um you'll realize he's like so freaking intelligent.

>> And that was another thing is that like >> he's someone that just the materials for the film we worked on as we speak were some of the most thorough materials I'd

ever read. Anytime I had a question or

ever read. Anytime I had a question or thought about something, I went back to that. But to um go back to your initial

that. But to um go back to your initial question, I think it's really like understanding who the filmmaker is and what their desire is to make the film.

Is it a personal connection to it? Are

you from the area? Um does it connect to your family's past or history? So really

understanding all that and then from there, you know, as long as you have access in the archive and the story doesn't just feel like elementary, I think it's a no-brainer that like you

should at least try to develop it. Not

maybe fully produce it, but at least try to develop it, whether it's paid or unpaid. Um, so yeah, I'd say it's really

unpaid. Um, so yeah, I'd say it's really just like trying to understand the filmmaker and what their desire is behind making anything because ultimately it is art and why does anyone make art and

it's to express something and I think when I'm looking at those projects it's like okay what is this person trying to tell or convey and then once I feel like I have an understanding of that then I

definitely understand like how the story in the film will play out. From a

strategic perspective, let's say I'm a producer. I've secured access to this

producer. I've secured access to this artist, this world, this whatever, right? And I I come come to you as an

right? And I I come come to you as an executive and I'm like, this is incredible but it's not necessarily anchored in storytelling. Like I I I have the

storytelling. Like I I I have the access, I have everything, but I'm like, but the how we're going to tell the story, it's not there. Do you feel like your advice then to to a producer would

be go get a director attachment and come back and talk to us?

>> Yeah, I would say if someone has like access on an idea but they don't understand what their take is, yeah, go find a director cuz the director is

going to find a vision. And I think it would it's also important to like >> talk to a couple of directors. Like one

of my favorite things that happens in the industry, but it doesn't happen as often anymore, is like bake offs. Like

just I can't speak on the project, but a couple months ago, I was working on a sports doc about a legendary

um athlete and we had probably like nine directors come in and pitch us their take. And it was amazing because you

take. And it was amazing because you just see how they all approach a story differently. And I think ultimately from

differently. And I think ultimately from that you understand what's the best way to sort of >> go at this and I think like you said on a producer side it's like yeah go

understand or find a filmmaker and see like hey I have this access I have this story what's your take on this and I think that can really help a story rather I think it could help a story

sink or swim because if you don't have a POV I think like you know survey docs exist but do people really enjoy those as much anymore? I think maybe the

general audience, but when it comes from I think a critical standpoint or someone that also is rather invested in non-fiction, if it doesn't really have a

POV, then I think people aren't going to enjoy it as much and it's not going to have as much um staying power.

>> Agreed. Totally agree. I think I think as a producer too, I think it's just important just to not underestimate the power that that packaging a director onto your project can bring. And again,

like and knowing your own limitations as well. If you're an amazing storyteller,

well. If you're an amazing storyteller, like great, lay it out for us, but I think it's important to go like, "Oh, I need I >> I want to hear someone else's POV. I

want to bring something strong to this instead of like, here's the world. Look

at all the things we can do." I find that bringing something that says, "Here's the world. Here's what we're going to do, and here's how we're going to tell this story." Is just so much stronger.

>> Um, so this is a great piece of advice.

Uh, do you feel like this is interesting, do you feel like things are trending and this you can talk sports, music, sort of whatever, you know, in in the pop culture space when it comes to these

these docs, but do you think they're leaning more towards like artists? Are

they leaning more towards eras? We're in

a big like '9s 2000s nostalgia right now. Uh, or or issue driven stories

now. Uh, or or issue driven stories right now. like what do you think is

right now. like what do you think is really moving the needle in terms of what's getting bought and what's actually making it?

>> I think it's the artist access thing. I

think sort of like I mentioned before like issue driven stuff is typically >> depending on who it's for and >> essentially like who the platform is

they may highlight that more than someone else but I'd say most platforms are access driven and it's because like you want the built-in audience you want

people to be able to find it easily. Um,

but I think issue driven storytelling is also important, but it's like what is it? There's this like great saying that this woman, Amanda Spain, I used to work with at Ever Wonder has.

It's like I think it's like gourmet pizza or something.

>> Is it like hiding the pill in the peanut butter? Is it like that?

butter? Is it like that?

>> That's actually I think the phrase she uses.

>> And I think it's something um like that.

It's like, yeah, like you could lead with issue, but so often people don't want to be told how to think or feel like we mentioned. So, finding a way to I love using the term like Trojan horse,

and I'm excited for the Odyssey to come out. Um, but

out. Um, but >> it's like Trojan horsing these stories.

So, I think if you're going to have an issue driven story, it's like what else can you sort of cover that with so people look at that? example I can give you is I actually have a meeting after

this about a sports story about a legendary sports team during a specific time and it's um a WNBA team and

I I think I can say this like over the past year you know a lot of networks and buyers have said we want women's stores we want women's stores we want women women's stores but they haven't really

been buying them right they have not >> they haven't tried >> it's a lot of lip service.

>> So I had this idea about this WNBA team and on the surface I was like this is a good story in its own but I realized to actually I think move this forward we need to attach something else and I

can't specifically say what that other thing is because it would give away the story and someone could just easily make it and I'm in the process of it. Um, but

I think it's like finding a way to, like you said, put the pill in the peanut butter. And I think that is the I think

butter. And I think that is the I think in a way a way that at least stories really shine to me. And I think a lot of

execs I know, buyers or you know, sellers that sit in executive seats also resonate with that as well. I think.

Yeah.

>> Well, yeah. And I mean we can get into the everything is connected of it all but as we go back to ad supported everything we have brands that need to align with

content that like so everything we have to be yeah more Trojan horse pill in the peanut butter hide the broccoli of it all not only because that's commercially

I think what we're going to be forced to do but also as a viewer yes you want to come to the conclusion on your own like we were talking about earlier and and do it through a human story. So I I do want

to talk about as we speak because um you know this is an issue driven sort of doc that you did that uh you know the first amendment is a hot topic at the moment.

Um when you evaluated the project early on what what felt really urgent or compelling about the story?

>> I mean I think as we speak it sort of like came to me at like I think the perfect time.

It was after Young Thug and Gunonna had already been arrested for their transgressions and whatever was going on

in Atlanta. And I think I saw actually

in Atlanta. And I think I saw actually I'll speak bluntly. There was like, you know, Jigsaw announced they were doing a Young Thug and Gunner thing. Hulu had

done something. And a ton of people were trying to tell this story, but I think they were trying to tell it in like whoever gets access first will tell it

sort of way.

>> And as we speak was not about them at all really.

>> I I don't know if you've watched the film, but the film mentions Young Thug and Gunonna I think in the first 10 minutes and then doesn't mention them ever again. So, what stood out to me was

ever again. So, what stood out to me was that this story wasn't going to be this like salacious celebdriven project, but more of an issue driven story. And

that's what Jason did so well was really touching in on rap music and the First Amendment. How are these things going at

Amendment. How are these things going at each other and why are they going at each other? So, that really stood out to

each other? So, that really stood out to me that he was just taking a different approach from every other story that was out there. And then again to speak on

out there. And then again to speak on the IP of it all, he had partnered with this guy Eric Nielson who wrote a book 20 years prior about the issue called um

Rap on Trial. And

>> Eric was attached to the project in a consultant uh basis. So that was another added thing that I just felt like, oh, of all these other projects that are trying to do this, this project will, I

think, have the most value because it has a lot of the key people attached to it, but also is approaching the issue first and not the sort of like celebrity

of the issue first.

>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um,

what we talked about this already, so I won't I won't get a ton into sort of like why you were convinced that this this could be a debut feature for for

Jason, but um I I guess I'm curious about your collaboration and what did it teach you, you know, moving forward working with directors and visionaries.

I think when it came to that film and I worked on that film when I was at Paramount Plus and MTV and um I had two other colleagues, Amanda Kokowski and

Laurian um working on that film with me as well. And I think what we really did

as well. And I think what we really did was like just trust them. You know, we had our traditional notes process. We

had our calls every week, but what we really did was like Jason and the team, you know, we just really said, "Hey, we love this idea. we love this story. We

don't want to get in the way too much.

We truly had like one major note that entire time. Um, and the rest of it was

entire time. Um, and the rest of it was really we trusted in the process and we trusted in them. And I think it was, you know, I've, you know, talked highly of

Jason so much already, but I think it was him and then the team at Park Pictures and Bisby and Danielle Massie, as well as, uh, the team at District 33,

Sam Widows and Peter Camber, who I had briefly passed through the night with when I was at Quibby. They did a project for us over there. Um, but it was really just like this group of people coming

together to make something, all of whom I was fans of. I knew it was going to be something special. So, it was really

something special. So, it was really just like trusting in Jason to do it and then like understanding that he's truly a brainiac and a genius that like he

wasn't going to deliver anything bad and if there were ever any questions we had, it was just as easy as picking up the phone and calling or talking to the entire team and then things just like

were answered. There was truly never a

were answered. There was truly never a moment where we were like, "What the hell is going on here?" It was just like, "Wow." like constantly being

like, "Wow." like constantly being surprised. And the beauty of that film

surprised. And the beauty of that film was, you know, through the process of working at a network, when you're making a film like that, everyone within the company for the most part is watching

it. You have BA, SNP, marketing,

it. You have BA, SNP, marketing, whatever. When we were getting in cuts

whatever. When we were getting in cuts of that film, and I'd never seen anything like this before, every single department would like reach out to our team and be like, "This is something

special. This is something different."

special. This is something different."

And then with that, we just like after getting that note on like from internally on the first cut, we're definitely like, "All right, let them just do what they're going to do. We

should not we should not try to mess with this too much."

>> Oh, that's so wonderful. And how

validating to get I don't know for you for you to be like, "Oh, my instincts were totally right." Like that's so validating for you as well as a buyer and as you know, someone who has to to

make these type of decisions. Like

that's that's pretty incredible.

>> Definitely validating but also like egoinducing.

>> You're so >> cuz after that I thought I was the baddest man in the world but then >> of course >> all right you have to find something else and then we found a lot of things but yeah it was uh it was phenomenal.

>> No that's so incredible. What what

genres or eras of Well, we talked about sports, like what we feel like is untouched, right? The business side of

untouched, right? The business side of things, but uh is there anything else, music or pop culture or otherwise, like areas that you feel like are kind of underserved right now or need more attention?

>> Yeah, I mean, I think there's so much that's underserved. I think like I think

that's underserved. I think like I think a lot of platforms should really invest in um short form documentary a lot more.

I think independent docs should get >> Yes. I think a bit more love and you see

>> Yes. I think a bit more love and you see that with like places like the non-fiction hot list popping up and their partnership with

>> Yahoo. Um, yeah. I think just like

>> Yahoo. Um, yeah. I think just like there's no no specific genre that I think is like too too underserved that I can think of and

maybe I'm just like being completely oblivious to it, but I think it's really just like looking at different areas because I always I when I worked at Onyx

years ago, there was this woman I worked with, Jackie Glover, who said something that always stuck with me because at Onyx a lot of times we were and then I'll bring it back into the question you asked. We would always use the term

asked. We would always use the term comp. So, it's like, "What's a comp for

comp. So, it's like, "What's a comp for this? What's a comp?" And it's like,

this? What's a comp?" And it's like, "What's the comparable project on the marketplace?" And I remember she said to

marketplace?" And I remember she said to me, we were like having a one-on-one and she was like, "Moly, what does that mean?" And I was like sort of shock. I

mean?" And I was like sort of shock. I

was like, "You don't know what a comp is?" She was like, "No, but like I know

is?" She was like, "No, but like I know what it means, but why do we keep saying it?" Because she was like, she worked at

it?" Because she was like, she worked at She came from HBO. She was like, "At HBO, we never looked at what other people were doing. We led audiences to places and then they enjoyed it. So I

think when it comes to that I think when you look at the the boom of true crime music sports it's a lot of people >> and buyers just buying a lot of projects

in that space and then audiences being like oh wow I really really like this and I think they should try that for other things. I think you know some more

other things. I think you know some more independent and off thebeaten path sort of stories people will engage with. I

think you look at something like a My Octopus Teacher that came out years ago that was on Netflix. Who in the hell would have thought that audiences would have liked that, right? Yeah.

>> No one.

>> No one at all. No.

>> But but they made it and they put it on a platform where it had marketing, some some marketing and some access for people to watch it and then it blew up.

And I think often times stories like that get so overlooked because it doesn't have this like builtin interest point that you can easily point to for audiences. But I think with that

you're so often like you're expecting little from the audience almost. You're

like I think to think people are only interested in pop culture, music, and sports is I think a disservice to non-fiction. And I think it's a

non-fiction. And I think it's a disservice to the audience that trusts people to put things on their television. So I think it would really

television. So I think it would really just be like looking at under represented and under highlighted stories. Like I saw a project months ago

stories. Like I saw a project months ago from a filmmaker um two filmmakers, their siblings. I won't mention who they

their siblings. I won't mention who they are in case they don't want me to. Um

but this like phenomenal story that they had and it was a no-brainer and if I was in a position to like make it happen, I would. But as I was trying to elevate

would. But as I was trying to elevate that project, I was told like I don't know if anyone's going to watch that.

And I was like, what are you talking about?

>> It's like an amazing story.

>> Um, so I really think just like >> trusting filmmakers like I've said a million times already and then just like expecting more from your audience

because like how many whether it's films or whatever have surprised people at how audiences have responded to them. K-pop

demon hunters for example again >> K-pop demon hunters baby reindeer heated rivalry I mean like there's >> who the hell out and these are all

stories that like weren't I think K-pop demon hunters maybe was made in America I don't know but these are all stories that like traditionally an American buyer an American audience would have

been thought as like no they won't Squid Games too right oh they will not like this or um the Hulu show about the samuris it's a lot of times people being

like, "Yeah, oh, I don't know if this will make sense." But in reality, it's like if you build it, they will come.

And I think you have to trust in your audiences and trust in getting it out to the right people that ultimately things will happen. And I think if we take that

will happen. And I think if we take that approach in non-fiction and expand what we think is an entertaining documentary or, you know, docu series for audiences,

I think we'd be really surprised. And

you know, a lot of times people think, you know, non-fiction is sort of in a lull or in a decline because, you know, a lot of people are losing their jobs.

Me, myself, and some friends. And I

think it's because people aren't trying to sell, you know, different and nuance stories. They're trying to sell the same

stories. They're trying to sell the same thing that everyone else is selling. So,

no one's really trying to separate themselves in the marketplace.

>> It's a great point. It's the same same but different you know and it's like all the risk aversion is just leading to this like very homogeneous you know as producers we're nervous as exa like I

hope that we can get through whatever it is. I kind of feel it to be honest but I

is. I kind of feel it to be honest but I I feel like it's coming but I I agree with your assessment wholeheartedly.

>> Yeah, I'm definitely optimistic about the future of non-fiction and the way things will go. I know there are many people in our space who are rather not

optimistic about it and often talk ill of the space and you know whatever to them but yeah I'm extremely optimistic about where non-fiction will go and I

think audiences continually connect with it and connect with stories but it's really yeah you got to trust them to you got to trust yourself to trust audiences

to sort of like connect with something and not spoon feed them the same thing.

Like for example, I love McDonald's. If

I ate it every day, I'd get tired of it and I'd die.

>> It's like we should do that with the content we're offering people. We

shouldn't just keep feeding them a true crime doc once a week, a sports doc every other day. It's like let's give them a bit more variation, you know, like where's the broccoli, where's the

peas, where are the vegetables, where are the other things that aren't the >> main course, but also can help elevate a plate.

>> Yeah, totally. I love that analogy. Um,

okay, a couple of questions before we before we go that are just fun for me.

What's the most like surprising or shocking archival that you've ever come across? And if you need to mention live

across? And if you need to mention live PD here, I know that doesn't count, but if if you have to mention Live PD things said and done that never made air, if

anyone's listening, actually, I will say this. Go look up Live PD deleted

this. Go look up Live PD deleted footage. There's a New York Times

footage. There's a New York Times article from 2020. Just want to say that is interesting because >> Okay.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you don't know about this story, it's actually >> I don't know about this story and we talked before.

>> It's the reason why Live PD is now called patrol something and is on a completely different network.

>> Um, >> okay. The most interesting archive I

>> okay. The most interesting archive I think I've ever come across and not me finding it but has been presented to me was a couple of years ago. Um I was

approached about doing a Destiny's Child documentary and it was coming to us from a phenomenal filmmaker in a production company that unfortunately no longer

does non-fiction. Um, and they had

does non-fiction. Um, and they had access and they were collaborating with Beyonce's father, Matthew Nolles, on it.

And at this time, I worked at Paramount Plus and MTV and obviously it's MTV. We

had archive >> of Destiny Shout. So, we went through and it was just like realizing and the film was going to be completely archival. there was not going to be

archival. there was not going to be really a talking head interview in it even though I know like some buyers requested that. But that was something

requested that. But that was something that like you really saw this group of women who are now >> I mean Beyonce and um Kelly Roland, not

so much Michelle and Latoya um but who are like essentially the biggest artists in the world right now from >> you know >> you know young adultness on through becoming you know women of their own. It

was some of the best archive I'd seen both on the um MTV side and then the couple of things I got to see through um the production company that was bringing it to us. But it's a project that still

hasn't come out and I'm just like whoever makes it, it will be the hottest thing in the world. I can't imagine I mean I can because I watched it as a

viewer as an impressionable young woman but I can't imagine coming up in that particular era as like three young women in entertainment. Uh it was like

in entertainment. Uh it was like particularly kind of volatile and yet they still are what they are. Um I know we got to wrap >> so I'll ask you one more question. Um,

what is an artist or or music movement or I don't know, I'll say athlete that you'd like you drop everything and produce it tomorrow.

>> Ooh, I think if Odd Future wanted to do something, I would immediately I would move out of my home um to work

with them. Um, I think Destiny's Child,

with them. Um, I think Destiny's Child, like I mentioned, um, Bill Withers, I feel like he's a really interesting

artist that sort of gets overlooked at times. And, um, another one is, um, the

times. And, um, another one is, um, the Washington wives story. It's the story of like the women who were essentially a bunch of women in the like I think it

was the 80s or 90s were married to a bunch of senators and they were upset with the explicit nature of music. So they created

something called the filthy 15 that like flagged artists like Cindy Looper, Twisted Sister, Snider, Prince Madonna, and they

essentially like went and attacked, it's sort of like the inverse of As We Speak.

Um they went in and sort of attacked music for its explicit nature because they didn't think their kids should be listening to it. And it was a group of just like, you know, Al Gore's wife was

a part of it, which is sort of crazy thinking of like how liberal Al Gore is, >> right?

>> Um, but it's the reason why the explicit warning label exists on CDs. It's all

because of these women. And it's a story that like hasn't been told. And I'm just like when someone does it. I believe

there's actually a twisted sister dot coming out which may touch on it, but I really want to just like dive into like these women and why they did it and everything.

>> That's so interesting. Uh yes, you mentioned Odd Future as I look at my Tyler the Creator poster. Um I hope that that happens for you and I'm crossing all my fingers for you. Thank you so much for coming on. This was so

wonderful. Thanks for sharing all your

wonderful. Thanks for sharing all your stories, your insights, your learnings.

uh and really excited for whatever you have coming up and wish you all the best.

>> Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.

I really enjoyed this.

>> Thanks, Malik.

>> Such a good conversation with Malik.

Thank you so much for listening. As

always, please don't forget to like, subscribe, rate, review, share, all the things. And please follow us on

things. And please follow us on Instagram, unscripted Filespot. I got a lot of good DMs and conversations, especially regarding our AI episode. So,

please know I'm always up for the conversation and always reach out to me.

We'll be back Monday with our unscripted industry news with Emily Wilson giving us all the top headlines in the industry and then back next Friday with a full interview with another creative in the industry. Thanks so much for listening.

industry. Thanks so much for listening.

See you next time.