From Ports to the Deal Table: How FP&A Earned a Seat at Peel Ports

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And now, on to the show from Data Reels. This is FPNA Today.

Welcome to FPNA Today. I'm your host, Glenn Hopper. Our guest today is

Glenn Hopper. Our guest today is Alexander Ro, group deputy head of FPNA at Peele Ports Group, one of the UK's largest port operators. Alex is a SEMA

qualified finance professional with 14 years of experience across data analysis, management accounting, and financial planning. He spent nearly 12

financial planning. He spent nearly 12 years at Peele ports working his way from assistant management accountant to leading FPNA across the group. Along the

way, he's helped to bring finance into the M&A process, built valuation models for acquisitions, and earned FPNA a seat at the deal table. Alex, welcome to the show.

Yeah, thank you very much for having me.

We talked before the show and I always love when talking to people who come into FPNA as I did sort of through a side door and I think it's interesting

so much when you talk to people how you can sort of make the connection between what they were doing before and how they rolled into uh into FPNA. But your

background starts in electrical engineering and pensions data at Mercer.

Yeah. And I'm wondering like from that you were pulled into management accounting and I'm wondering how like I just picture those analytical roots can kind of shape the kind of finance professional you are. Can you tell us a

little bit about that transition?

Yeah. So I kind of fell into management accounting a little bit. So it was actually on the back of starting my own business. So I was actually whilst I was

business. So I was actually whilst I was working as a in pensions data analysis I was kind of starting my own starting my own business and I thought having this analytical background I thought what's

important in business what's like the lifeblood of business well it's finance it's ultimately all about money so I thought well I better understand money a little bit so I went and did the SEMA

which is a chartered institute of management accounting uh SEMA certificate just to give me a little bit of financial grounding so that I could confidently go and start my own business. During the process of that, I

business. During the process of that, I was like, you know, I actually really enjoy this and I think it's really really interesting getting this the idea that you can use like financial

technical expertise to actually make a commercial difference to a business. I

just found so exciting that I thought rather than going through the the hardship and difficulty of starting my own business, how about I just go into this and make it my career. So that's

when I ended up applying for a job uh and getting a job in management accounting.

And you know I love that lens because Warren Buffett says accounting is the language of business. I worked with so many founders through the years who maybe you know did had an NBA they

didn't and they just were really good at whatever they started their business with and I did a lot of early stage CFO work and you come in and they don't really know. I mean, they might have a

really know. I mean, they might have a Quickbooks or a Zero account or uh whatever, but they're not really panic, you know, they're just looking at their P&L if anything and they're you thinking, you know, treating maybe they're doing cash accounting and all

that. But after they work with a finance

that. But after they work with a finance person for a little bit, they really start to understand more and see the levers where they can control the business. And I'm I'm imagining that's

business. And I'm I'm imagining that's sort of how it rolled out for you too when you look under the hood at the at the financials.

Yeah, absolutely. And I've actually got some quite direct experience of that.

not in a business but actually in a charity. When I went out into Cambodia

charity. When I went out into Cambodia doing some like financial consulting out there for like sort of pro bono kind of stuff for a charity. They had no financial expertise at all. So similar

situation I guess to you know founder kind of thing. They their focus they were brilliant at you know they were I think providing education to children kind of free of charge throughout Cambodia. Really good worthwhile

Cambodia. Really good worthwhile charity. They didn't know anything about

charity. They didn't know anything about finance at all. They had tried to make a cash flow model uh in in Excel to forecast out to the to

their financial year end. They were

forecasting to have $12,000 in their bank account.

Sorry, £12,000 in their bank account uh by the end of the year, which in Cambodia is that's a lot of money. So,

that's pretty good. Unfortunately, they

made a load of mistakes when they were calculating that. So, I kind of redid it

calculating that. So, I kind of redid it for them. And it actually turned out

for them. And it actually turned out they were ending the financial year with they were going to end the financial year with 12 US dollars.

Just literally 12. I mean that as well showed me like the the sort of power of finance and the fact it is the really the lifeblood of a business or an organization like that and how valuable

financial expertise is in those kind of areas.

Absolutely. As you were telling that story I apppropo of nothing but I've got to share this. I came I was doing some consulting work and I came into a business that was they weren't dying but

they weren't growing. Well, I say they weren't dying. They handed me their

weren't dying. They handed me their financials and on the first day when I got there and I was going through and I was looking at them and I I got down uh to the Ebida numbers and they were

single digits and this is a business that was doing you know 10 to 15 million a year in revenue and I got down to the Ebida lines and they were just single numbers like five seven you know

negative three and I was like are these thousands hundred thousands and they [laughter] they said nope those are dollars and I just could not believe how they were And that was at the EBA line. That

wasn't even, you know, counting the loan service and all that. But it was kind of funny to see those those single digits from a from a company. But anyway, like I said, apppropo of nothing. But as you, you know, the $12 thing, I can I can

definitely relate to the Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, it's a scary

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, it's a scary position, but that's where, you know, we can come in and add real value cuz in that case, like they were able to go away and sort of start to scramble for for cash and make sure that they really

managing the cash flow tightly, which they wouldn't have otherwise planned to.

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it

really it's like a a magic wand once you or not a magic wand or at least a a crystal ball maybe where you can understand better by having that that financial um background. Your first

accounting position was that at Peelports or was that I mean I know you did the charity but then did you go straight to Peeleports?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So my my my whole actually finance and accounting career is at Pillports Group. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. So you've been there 12 years came in assistant management accountant. Now

you're the deputy head of FPNA. I mean,

a lot of times we see FPNA people move a lot and usually it's the the mantra, the thinking is, well, if you want to move up, you have to go to a different company and take the position there because it's really hard to move up

internally. But I'm wondering from your

internally. But I'm wondering from your perspective, I mean, you have at this point a lot of insider knowledge. What

kept you building your career inside one organization rather than moving around and kind of chasing after whatever that next title or that next rung could be?

Yeah, I mean it's a good question and and definitely, you know, there are other advantages as well as just going up to the next rung. There's other

advantages of course to moving about is that you get exposed to more different business models and things like that. So

there is that advantage. I think I stayed I guess in part because I have I've been lucky enough that I can have been able to do that at one organization

as well. like the financial controller.

as well. like the financial controller.

I remember he once said to me, you know, oh, Alex, you're really loyal to this company. And I and I said to him, well,

company. And I and I said to him, well, I'm not I'm not loyal to the company.

It's just that you guys keep giving me opportunities, so I'm going to start.

So, I think it's like yes, you you might need to move to get the opportunity.

That's possible. But also, you know, I'd encourage people as well to reflect on whether they can uh get the opportunity where they are as well because that, you know, it may well be may well be there.

Obviously, there's simply a numbers game. Some people will stay and some

game. Some people will stay and some people won't. Uh that's just the nature

people won't. Uh that's just the nature of the business. But I would say it's not impossible to get that exposure in one business so long as well as the

business is kind of the of the right size which I think I've been lucky in that I was in Peele ports which is 800 million or so 800 million pounds so like

a a billion US dollars revenue about half of that in in Ebida spread across you know 10 or so divisions so it's quite a large company

but not like the absolute biggest. So

what you end up with there is exposure to quite a lot of complexity on like the full remit of everything from shareholder and and financing stuff down

to working on a single business unit. So

you get can get quite a lot of breadth in a company of that size in terms of your individual exposure. Yeah, it's a great point and I think, you know, as long as you continue to excel and kind of carve out your own path at at a

company that size, you can sort of create your own destiny. I mean, I know it doesn't we always want it to come quicker, but you can as you learn more and apply more and have new skills and have new value to add it, it kind of you just grow with the organization. So, I

love that.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And for me as well, one thing is although you you might not think it if you imagine a port business and certainly I did before I

was in it, I imagined it would just be very very steady, it would grow with the size of the overall economy because you know especially the UK is an island.

Ports are pretty central to it because and that's the only way to get things in and out. Maybe maybe planes I guess very

and out. Maybe maybe planes I guess very important to the economy but it would grow if construction grows then obviously more materials will be needed so we'd have more imports and all that

but Peel Pors actually is a really entrepreneurial organization like we're always thinking of different ways that we can serve the customer that might be through you know do a vertical integration so we'll buy a business or

build a new warehouse that accommodates some specialist material that the customer can bring in and it's that entrepreneurial thinking I think is really exciting and keeps things moving

even though we're in one organization.

Yeah. And honestly now as you talk about the business I think that's one of the fascinating things about hosting this podcast is I get to talk to people from so many different industries and I've really and even now as you explain it

I'm having a hard time picturing I'm wondering you know without uh divulging any proprietary secrets or whatever but for listeners who like me don't know the ports and logistics sector what what

does FP I know I know you talked about deals a little bit but what does FPNA look like in that world and are there key KPIs and and planning cycles that define your work.

Yeah. So I think so ports uh at least as as they are in the UK are quite kind of disperate businesses and we'll generate

EBIDAR from a a really wide range of activities. So I think it could be

activities. So I think it could be tempting and you know we have at times in the past had a plethora of different kind of KPIs that we that we might look

at and you know we might do in detail in certain parts of the business but overall what it comes down to for us is volume that comes over our our key side

at our ports.

And so it's like one ton of volume coming over the keyside.

everything else kind of needs to resol uh revolve around that because that's where we generate our EBIT DAR the most is is if one one uh ton of volume comes

over the key side. So [snorts] all our KPIs are based in some way related to that. So we've got obviously EBIT DAR

that. So we've got obviously EBIT DAR and revenue per uh ton that comes over the key. Another thing that we've gotten

the key. Another thing that we've gotten into the complexity with ports is we earn our own revenue at our own ports

but we are also the harbor authority for a a given area kind of a river within the UK not to get too precise about it but any vessel that goes down that river

so you know if something's carrying crude oil for example going to an oil refinery here in Liverpool that vessel will pay kind of a toll to us in order

to uh which we use to maintain the river and make sure it's navigable.

They pay that toll to us and that's revenue that we earn outside of our owned ports and then we have separate revenue that we earn for offloading

vessels at our ports. So that's quite a key distinction for us as well is what do we earn on third party volumes going somewhere else and what do we earn on

volumes that actually come to our ports because the two are then very different business propositions.

I know these are different business units but are they actually different business entities or do they all roll up as as a single company?

Yeah. No, so there are there are lots of different like actual corporate entities. There's I can't remember how

entities. There's I can't remember how many of them there are but there's a around 30 or so actual entities that we have within the company.

So when when you do FPNA are you doing are how does the company I mean you've got your consolidated FPNA and then you look at each business unit. Are you

actually are you monitoring each of those separate business units? Is there

do you have a team? Is it what's what's because that's a lot. [laughter]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That that is a lot. So

we have uh a management structure and that we so we we group by profit centers which group into divisions uh and then then group into and then

ultimately consolidate into the group.

So it's based on that management structure that we do all of our forecasting and and budgeting and all like that is based on the management structure. So a given division might

structure. So a given division might have five companies inside it but as far as we're concerned that's just one division which is usually a port.

Yeah. I bet the consolidation is fun around that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's

uh a lot to do uh on that for sure. And

there's we actually have teams within each division as well. So a finance team.

Okay.

So they are on the ground working with the business units within that division.

And we might have, I'll give you an example, a steel terminal here in Liverpool.

They'll work with the the manager of the steel terminal to actually work out, okay, how many tons do we expect to do in the next year? Therefore, what's our revenues? Therefore, what's our costs

revenues? Therefore, what's our costs and things and then that consolidates up into our overall budgeting uh process?

And our role at the center is to one define like how exactly we want to do that.

So how do we want them to to do that forecast and how do we expect them to to phase things and all that at the group we set the expectation of of what we

want the overall group to generate obviously in EBIT DAR over the next five years which is kind of our business plan.

Yeah, makes sense. Another thing that we talked about before on the M&A side and I love that you didn't come to M&A through investment banking or private equity or anything. You just had to as

internal to the business get up to speed and figure all this this out. And I know you had to kind of

out. And I know you had to kind of figure out uh doing business valuations and understanding you know discounted cash flow and how whatever approaches looking maybe looking at comps or

whatever but can you walk us through I know you said you had a deal team but you coming to it from the FPNA side walk us through what the work is you're in due diligence and I don't know if if

your work carries on you know after an acquisition if you're if you're helping with with the financial integration but walk us through the M&A process that you're involved happen.

Yeah. So, we actually first got really truly involved in the uh acquisition process um I think well a couple of years ago now when we established this new FBNA

team that we have in the business cuz separately we didn't have a a a core FBANA team which would do this kind of work. Uh and it meant that the deal team

work. Uh and it meant that the deal team didn't really have finance involved from that stage. Finance will be involved

that stage. Finance will be involved more so towards the end of the process and afterwards along the integration and you you the very formal due diligence

bit but we weren't involved in like okay how much do I actually want to buy this company for or indeed sell sell a company for the FBA team now is is

involved in that quite heavily and yeah so our involvement in it then is around yeah financial modeling to try and work out what the value is of the of the

business that we might be buying or or selling which then has been a really interesting process as well because that then gets us down to how do you actually value the whole of a business and

distill it down into one single number which I think is just to me that's absolutely amazing that you can have one number which represents the value of you know the entirety of a business and all the complexity that goes with it.

Yeah. And what I love also that we talked about, I'm I'm I probably should just recorded when we talked before the show, but at this when we were talking about this, I love what you said about

the the entity, you know, this is the secret of of M&A obviously, but the entity may have some value to its ex existing owner, but because the way

you're doing this full vertical integration, it could have a different value to you. Like how do you model the gap between those those numbers? I mean,

I guess there's just that's the secret of vertical integration, too, is you're going to pick up efficiencies and and all that with it as well.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, the way that that we tend to do it is we'll say we'll start with what we're buying because if if you think about what what

we're buying should be effectively what what the business has done before really because that's kind of what's proved.

Obviously, the you know, the the seller might have a different opinion about that of course. They might say, "Well, no, it's going to grow exponentially.

Don't you worry." But what what we'll say is, you know, well, we can see that the business has done, you know, say it's done x amount of volume. It's done

a thousand tons per month in volume for the last 5 years and oh, it's been pretty steady and therefore we think that it's going to carry on plus inflation pretty much for for the for the rest of

of the period or whatever the current situation is. We'll try and model that.

situation is. We'll try and model that.

And obviously that would then be what what you then argue is is that's what we want to pay for a business cuz that's what you're buying. You can see well that that's what it is. That's the value

that we're purchasing. We start with that as the basis and then we say okay but what are we going to do to improve that business? and not only improve that

that business? and not only improve that business, but for us because it's a vertical integration, we can then potentially earn more revenue in other

parts of our business as a result of buying another. An example of vertical

buying another. An example of vertical integration is one we did a few years ago where we bought a business uh which was in had hage in it. So that's you um

sort of trucks coming in and out of the port that then if we have that business that means we can drum up business there that means more business will come to

our port because if we say oh we can get you a really efficient truck service onto your into your warehouse. Well that

means that the customer is going to want more volumes to come through our ports which means then more ebidal for us overall. So we're adding on those layers

overall. So we're adding on those layers outside of the business which meant that like for example there's one that I've done where I've had to model do three

models. So done one model for what we

models. So done one model for what we want to buy, one model for what we think that business can do if we grow it and then a third model for what the overall group can do as a result of buying that

business. as you describe all this. I

business. as you describe all this. I

mean, this is in your due diligence and when you're looking at acquisition targets and this is all part of the planning, but you mentioned that until recently finance wasn't part of the due diligence process and I'm want I imagine

there are experts who know the industry and know the business and they can do probably in their head kind of the back of the napkin math and they conceptually get all that but of course you bring finance in and you've got the models and

all that but how did it go about that finance did come in the room? Did you

have to make the case for FPNA coming in? How did all that take place?

in? How did all that take place?

Yeah. So, I mean, getting into the room in the first place wasn't too difficult because our CFO was really pushed it and thought, you know, this has got to be the case, so therefore it was. And I

think so actually getting there was was that was because it was the kind of strategic level. Well, obviously it

strategic level. Well, obviously it makes sense for finance to be in the room. So, there wasn't there wasn't

room. So, there wasn't there wasn't really push back for us arriving.

But then the question is, you know, do do we get invited back to the party the next time? We then obviously want to

next time? We then obviously want to prove our value and and and and have to kind of uh prove where we're coming from. I think it became quickly quickly

from. I think it became quickly quickly became apparent that we did add a lot of value through the clarity of being able

to actually put on a page on a on a model what this business was worth. Uh

and and first one that we did was uh a sale of of part of our business to to one of our customers actually. So what

we able to do in finance which hadn't been done previously is we were able to do a full financial model for the sale of that business and show very clearly

how exactly that the sale would be valuable to us as a business. One thing

a result from that as well was we'd been doing this deal and we thought we were going to sell at one price. Obviously I

won't be able to tell you the actual prices but I I'll make up some numbers.

So say we were going to sell the business for £15 million.

When we did the modeling, we realized this business that we were going to sell for £15 million was actually worth20 million. It was quite a difficult

million. It was quite a difficult conversation going back and forth because conversations had already been had at this point to say, "Oh yeah, it's going to be about this 15 million and you've anchored them at that point

too." So yeah.

too." So yeah.

Yeah. So and what we were able to do is very clearly state why the business is worth this amount. That actually also gave us a lot of leverage when it came

to negotiations because previously we might have had some kind of vague argument as to why it might be worth 15, but now we can actually not prove because it's all it's all forecasting in

the end of the day. But more robustly and scientifically argue why that is uh the number what it is. And we ended up generating quite a lot more value for the business as a result of that

modeling happening. And that's huge and

modeling happening. And that's huge and that's a spot-on way to show, you know, that finance and accounting is not a cost center that you actually are adding value to the business. And I think the

whole story too, it's it feels to me like a a business partnering story as much as an M&A story. And I know we've been talking about it for years and there's still some companies do a really good job with it. There's a lot of

friction in other companies and it, you know, maybe it goes by department as much as by company. But moving into the M&A process, has that changed the way

you think about finance's relationship with the other functions more broadly like going into operations or marketing or you know all the other groups as well?

Is that so something I often hear said within finance is that you know we oh we really need to know you know the the business as a whole. Obviously the more you know the better for sure but it

being in this process has made me realize that everyone kind of brings their expertise and their knowledge to the table and for us in finance that frankly is the financial side of things

and and it's the money you know we there's a real kind of urge especially within FPNA uh bits of finance to kind of want to be business people and we're

super commercial and and yes we are absolutely but where do we add the most value is our expertise on the financial side. So it's made me reflect on the

side. So it's made me reflect on the fact that what are we? Well, we we are business partners who are experts in finance and we should be confident

in that being our like our foremost skill set even if we might have expertise in other areas and and really put a lot of effort into bringing that to the table and and bringing expertise

on on valuations and things like that to uh an M&A process.

Yeah. And I I think that's an important thing to remember too because I I can think back at companies where where I was previously and I would you know one company for example our chief revenue

officer happened to also be a CPA so he wanted to question all of my financials and I felt like stay in your lane man but that said I mean you know he has a a

different level of understanding of the financials and so I had to kind of step up and explain it to to him as well which you talk differently to, you know, someone who speaks the the language than

you do, someone who's, you know, doesn't care the difference between ibidai and net income or or whatever the the case is. So, yeah. And I think that that's

is. So, yeah. And I think that that's it's funny. It's easy to feel it when

it's funny. It's easy to feel it when somebody we we think they're stepping on our turf, but sometimes finance because this whole business partnering we are

sometimes embedded in other groups and at least working with them and they're sort of out you know we can broaden our lane a little bit but at the same time

to your point listen to the expertise of the people who that is their primary job too and that I think that's a key part of business partnering.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. No, it is. And

and it's to honestly it's it's really exciting uh for me at least to be in this room with a whole range of experts who can all bring their kind of piece from different parts of the equation and

and uh all contribute together. I think

that's that's absolutely brilliant and you can get a better result from that from everyone kind of contributing their their part.

Yeah. Uh and I what I loved early in my career was as the finance representative I got to be maybe even before I was a director maybe I was just a s maybe I don't know but senior manager or

director at a company and I would be in a meeting with several seuite people and listening to their expertise and I was just sort of you know there to log it and and model it and all that but it was

a great opportunity that I think you know at that level from other departments might not have been able to be in that room so I think to your point on you know it being the language of business. It's good to have your finance

business. It's good to have your finance guy in your hip pocket to bring to these meetings.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

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So you've been at Pillports a while and I think uh you you've built management accounting teams during your time there and I think that as and especially

because you are you know over a decade there you really know the business that a big part of what you do is you're bringing that institutional knowledge but there's also I'm sure there's a cultural knowledge. Do you have an

cultural knowledge. Do you have an approach as you're developing people, you know, especially those who are, you know, maybe part qualified early in their careers? Um, do you have a a sort

their careers? Um, do you have a a sort of a a training coaching approach that you use as you're building out teams?

Yeah. So, something that I'm I'm really passionate about about doing, especially because, you know, I feel I've benefited from from people giving me that opportunity as well. So, I kind of really want to want to give back in that

way. The way I approach it is I kind of

way. The way I approach it is I kind of try and give like graduated exposure to increasing responsibilities as for people when they when they start

the business to as they as they um go through because the management accounting team at Peele ports group I kind of you know when I was I was managing it it was very much for me I

was seeing as these people are the future of the company and I want to I want to ret retain them and also So train them into finance experts that can

go off and and be various levels of of uh you know sort of finance directors or managers wherever else in the business.

That's what I my goal was. So the way I do that is I would say you know you come in you might start with a small business unit as as that's your oh you need to complete the management accounting for this small business unit. Then maybe

they come a bit of an expert at that.

they start like budgeting for it and then it's introducing the next level and it's trying to introduce like a gradual like exposure to more and more levels of

responsibility and more different things as well so that so that at the end when they come out and they've you know got their accounting qualification for example they'll come out as a

well-rounded professional so I think that's important to give them that gradual exposure.

Yeah. and you so it's been a minute since you got your SEMA qualification and you've had to sort of carve out since then and I'm imagining with a pretty small team. I know a lot of different companies, but being at at

corporate sometimes it can depending on the team structure can seem like you're kind of hacking it out on your own. But

I'm wondering as you've developed in your career, are there any skills now that you think are kind of underrated for FPNA professionals, especially if

they want to move from just being that junior analyst, individual contributor, maybe moving into more strategic work like valuations, deal support and and kind of work you're doing? Yeah, it's a

great question and I think a lot of it is thinking about the why of of what you're doing and and not just doing it.

So you're not like let's take a financial model. What what you might see

financial model. What what you might see in the first instance is all right I need to put some numbers into a spreadsheet and I need those numbers to

be right and they need to pop out with a evaluation at the end.

Ostensibly, yeah, that that's kind of what you're doing. But I think what you got to develop is that next level is what's the strategic objective of the business

in in you know, say pulling this model together, for example, what's the business trying to achieve? Because then

not only does that actually help you physically put the model together because you can prioritize the bits that are important to the business and and not so much the bits that aren't, but it

means that you can also then be very responsive to you know conversations with you know say the seauite where you kind of get what what they want from it

as well. I think it was uh the the guy

as well. I think it was uh the the guy Simon Synynk you might have seen some of his things and he I I remember actually thinking when I was the first starting

game out in my career I thought what a what a load of rubbish because he said start with why he's got a great video which I'd encourage anyone to look up start with why and I thought well that's

crazy why would you do that just do it but now I you know what actually he was right I was uh it was the hubris of youth that made me I actually think he's

completely right. You always start with

completely right. You always start with why am I doing this thing that just unlocks a lot because you can then have the ability to go further into things and add value to it if you know

why something is being done. I'd also

encourage anyone who's sort of at that kind of level, maybe they're doing their studies is if you can't work it out for yourself, you know, just ask the question and try and find out the reasons behind what you're doing rather

than just just going away and doing it.

Yeah, there's I mean there's an argument to be made that if the right approach to being an FPNA analyst is that you're an investigative reporter. You're trying to

investigative reporter. You're trying to get to the root. You're trying to find that lever that key. It's not just building the model. It is okay, but what is you know find your correlations, find

whatever is causing you know the model.

Where can you where can you find that lever to add value to the business? And

I I talk about a lot of times on the show too about uh confusing the map for the terrain. And I think and and maybe

the terrain. And I think and and maybe you'll relate to this with your uh engineering roots, but I I think maybe the happiest I was professionally is those early days of my career where I

could just get lost, no meetings, I'm just building out some crazy model and uh and I'm just so excited about, you know, how how it all worked out. But uh

at that I like you said at that point in my career I was just like let me build the best best model I can. I I I don't care what widgets or cogs or whatever I was counting. It was just let's build a

was counting. It was just let's build a cool model.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I

remember that. Uh totally like I'm a huge fan of Excel. You know I love my Excel formulas and all that. And yeah, I would build like the most fabulous uh looking thing without, you know,

necessarily truly having the grounding as to what was what was the priority in in what I was doing there.

Yeah. And then those models were so great because if anyone ever if you ever vanished and someone tried to [laughter] go figure out the model, it's like so many formulas going across and it's that would become your intellectual property

because nobody else could figure it out.

[laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. I had lots of those

Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. I had lots of those as well. when I was uh I actually got

as well. when I was uh I actually got sort of admonished by our IT team because I started including quite a complex like macrobased

uh Excel sheet and the IT team asked me the I know I couldn't answer the question because they asked me uh so who's going to maintain this?

Yep. I was like, "Oh, yeah. I didn't

didn't think about that."

This absolutely basine system blackbox kind of thing.

Which is whereas now I'm like absolutely the simpler the better for for pretty much anything including Excel uh sheets.

Yeah, I'm the same way. And I I do kind of miss and I even I have guests on who were like Excel warriors. And it's you know I had my first CFO role in like 2007 and that's kind of when I was more

of a receiver of Excel files than actually building them. I do miss that though. And now with AI, you know, who

though. And now with AI, you know, who knows where we're going, [laughter] but maybe this isn't even AI related. But

what are you focused on right now? Kind

of we're always building. We're always

there's new technology now and it doesn't have to be AI related as I said, but is there something that you're trying to get better at? Something

you're building or changing in your FPNA function. I mean, where do you kind of

function. I mean, where do you kind of see everything going and whether it's internally with the company or with the tech that's out there or with your, you

know, AI that could be in there? What

are you looking at? I use AI every day in work, but I always think it's I almost call it like a kind of quiet AI

in that it's not this absolutely grand gamechanging thing in like one go. But

what it does is it actually smooths out my day and like lubricates what I'm doing quite a lot. Like you know there might be, you know, I'm doing an Excel formula for example and I don't know

what the formula is. I can kind of have a chat with with Claude and work out what the best way of doing it is and invariably I'll get to the answer 20 times quicker than I would have done if

I had been searching for it and things like that. So, I use AI a lot for those

like that. So, I use AI a lot for those like little things throughout the day. I

think that's where a lot of people nowadays are are getting already getting a lot of value from AI. It's just not this big grand scheme thing that anyone can necessarily put a number on. It's

just making everybody's days slightly smoother. Yeah, I agree. And I um you

smoother. Yeah, I agree. And I um you know, we're of course we're all having existential crises about um if AI is going to take our jobs, but really the well, for example, Claude is down this

morning and I bet productivity around the world just has gone in the gutter.

Nobody knows what to do without their bot assistant to help him. But the

outputs can be amazing. But with

hallucination and all the issues around, I think that the mistake is say, well, Claude's going to do it for me or chat GPT. I know everybody's talking Claude

GPT. I know everybody's talking Claude these days, but there's our Gemini users and all that out there, too. But if you look at it as more of a thought partner and someone to, you know, help you than

let me just hit enter and head off to the golf course or whatever, it's that's where the real benefits are coming from.

And I I don't think they're even being reported at the levels they are. I think

individuals are doing this. and whether

they're getting more efficient in doing their work quicker or they're doing things that they wouldn't have done if they didn't have AI to help them. But I

think the productivity reports are kind of lagging because I think sometimes maybe people depending on what the policy is at their company, they may be sort of scared to report well if I'm telling them that I'm doing you know 80%

of my work in AI or you know whatever the number is that they might decide that they don't need me or something.

Yeah, I think there's a there is a huge fear of that. I think there's also there is still at the moment I would say some stigma about oh you've used AI to do

that and again I think that comes from the examples of people having done what you said where they have gone away I know there's cases of lawyers for example who've you know actually kind of

tried to make a case in court and given legal advice based on just what what what Claude told them or whatever AI and they've actually you know been been uh

prosecuted for doing things like that.

So that definitely exists and that I think gives it a little bit of a bad rep whereas it doesn't need to because if you use it as a tool to make what you do

better then that actually is is incredibly valuable. It just grows your

incredibly valuable. It just grows your it grows what you can do and it can teach you things as well but it has to teach you the thing. It can't let it do the thing.

Right. Exactly. [laughter]

We're about to start winding this down, but you mentioned that your uh international charity earlier. I don't

know if you're still involved with them, but um tell me tell me a little bit about your your charity work. I don't

know is is that organization one you're still involved with? Are you still doing any any charity work?

Yeah, so so the one I mentioned earlier was a separate thing um that I did over in Cambodia as like kind of one-off consulting. But yeah, so I'm on the uh

consulting. But yeah, so I'm on the uh like trustee board of uh Peace Brigades called Peace Brigades International uh UK. So it's a human rights charity. So

UK. So it's a human rights charity. So

it helps people who have been, for example, if a if a a government or whatever is kind of unfairly prosecuting people, it will go and go and help them to to stand up to that. All around the

world, it does this. It's something that I feel quite passionate about is finance people as well. using their skills for something like this where you can

actually use your skills and expertise which are incredibly valuable and hard for charities and nonprofits to actually get hold of because they don't have a lot of cash available to them and you

can actually really use your expertise to to kind of give back and and that's what I do then on the you know it's what I try to do on the board there. So I'm

one of the uh two finance trustees. So

I'll be like the the kind of sounding board and give the challenge to the managing director of the charity, things like that. And give that financial lens

like that. And give that financial lens also give some security, some level of security to the other trustees who aren't so financially involved. They can

kind of rest a bit more easy that that the finances are kind of in good shape because of of what we do in the finance side.

That's great and admirable work and yeah my wife um works for a nonprofit and they I [laughter] I've tried to anyway that's a whole other story but it's I

mean very much the case you have people who are very passionate about their cause and they you know finances yes they have to sustain the business but at the same time they don't want to be

bogged down in it. So if you can take that expertise and lend it to them and give them that insight and guidance, that's an admirable thing to do for uh for the nonprofit.

Yeah, absolutely. And also it's something as well that I would again encourage someone probably you need some level of expertise obviously. So I' I'd maybe encourage people who've you know

maybe they've just qualified with their financial qualification. They they know

financial qualification. They they know what they're doing and things. Charities

are like crying out for this sort of expertise. you then get exposure at you

expertise. you then get exposure at you know you and I'm sitting on the board and making these kind of board level type decisions obviously in a small organization but you would never get

that in a in a commercial organization so it's a big like quid proquo you get that exposure and expertise in financial

communication things like that and the charity gets your financial expertise so it's a it's a big win yeah I love We're winding down to our standard

closers here. And the first is, what is

closers here. And the first is, what is something that our listeners probably wouldn't know about you? Something they

couldn't find on your social media profiles or wherever they were looking you up.

Probably something that would be surprising is I speak a decent amount of Mandarin Chinese.

Ah, probably unusual one. Yeah.

Did that come as a as a hobby or or necessity? It was a hobby and me kind of

necessity? It was a hobby and me kind of being very very stubborn is why I still do it because it was actually at university studying electrical electronic engineering. Like China is

electronic engineering. Like China is really big at all that. So half of my classmates were Chinese and they would all talk to each other in Mandarin Chinese and I was like, "God, I wish I

could understand you guys." So about 15 years later, I'm still on my way to understanding that. I I took four years

understanding that. I I took four years of Spanish in in high school, two years in college. I'm doing Dolingo every day.

in college. I'm doing Dolingo every day.

My my mother was a Spanish teacher. My

stepdad was uh was Cuban. And um

I'm I still am not uh I'm okay, but I get myself into trouble whenever I go into Spanish speaking countries. Spent a lot of time in South

countries. Spent a lot of time in South America last year and um couldn't navigate as well as I thought, but I can apparently my pronunciation is really good. So I would say something and they

good. So I would say something and they assumed I knew more and then they would just fire off at me.

That's a problem.

Just to be completely lost. Yeah, I

probably my Spanish probably has a Cuban accent too, just listening to my stepdad as well. So yeah, probably.

as well. So yeah, probably.

Well, that's great. That's great. Are

you uh studying it now? Do you do Dolingo or how are you keeping up with your your Mandarin studies? Yeah, I I kind of now I've I've kind of stopped in the last six months uh studying it

properly mainly because my my wife is German and she insists that I I prioritize German instead of Chinese. So

I've it's also a lot easier I must say.

If you play your cards right, you could be a true polyglot. You could just with English, German, and Mandarin, you could they could drop you anywhere in the world and I bet you could figure it out.

Yeah. Figure figure something out. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So quite a lot mostly to be honest for me it's like uh kind of trying to stay exposed. So having some like reading materials things like that and just trying to keep it keep it ticking over.

That's great. All right. Now it's time for uh everybody's favorite question.

What is your favorite Excel function and why?

Can I can I go with I'll give you two if that's all right.

Oh yeah.

I'll I'll see the fence. So first I would say actually simple one because it's used for like you can use it in so many different ways is sum ifs. So it

gives you a way of of basically filtering within a formula through a large set of data. Very very useful.

Yeah, sum ifs is actually fairly popular among uh people I ask. Yeah, sum ifs is it's an oldie but a goodie. It's a

standby.

It's it's it's great. It is really great. And the other one actually

great. And the other one actually probably a bit less common is the uh standard deviation formula stdev. S

because like I use it when I'm uh forecasting especially when there's quite a lot of uncertainty. If I'm doing an M&A transaction, I've received

accounts from from the seller. What I

want to do is work out how much does the how much do the the previous financials how much can I use them as representative of the future and you can use standard deviation to work out how

much variability there is and therefore how predictable future's going to be. So

that's quite a powerful one that people don't use that much as far as I can see.

Yeah. And I uh I went back to school for my second masters about a decade ago and took a lot of statistics courses and then I when I was doing that I just I got up on my soap box and I couldn't

stop preaching about how much FPNA people needed to just lean into statistics and again I was you know that level of nerdy modeler and that just gave me more ammunition to uh to argue

for it. But I I do I love that as as an

for it. But I I do I love that as as an approach to evaluate um forecasts. So

yeah, that's a good one. And that might be a first on the show. The show's been on for four or five years. I don't know if we've ever gotten in the standard deviation before. So, uh, yeah, I love

deviation before. So, uh, yeah, I love that.

Amazing. [laughter]

So, well, Alex, it has been a pleasure to talk to you and, uh, really interesting learning about, uh, your business and your background and I, I really appreciate you coming on the show.

Yeah. Thank you very much for having me.