From Software Engineers to AI Word Artisans: Filip Kozera of Wordware

uh we have 30 million software engineers in the world and we have 750 million active users of Excel and now uh you'll ask like how does wordware

compareed to Excel and what Excel did in the 80s to data analytics and numbers is what we are trying to do to AI so in the

80s you either had to have a team of data analytics um people or Engineers um or you're using a calculator and I would say the calculator equivalent here is

the chat GPT that you every time you need to redo the conversation and you every time you need to instill your um own needs into it what wordware is

trying to do is saying hey a lot of the things that you do are repeatable similar to excel um and you can encode

your taste into it um with wordware

[Music] today we're joined by Philip kazera co-founder of wordware who's building

tools to help bridge the gap between human creativity and AI Philip shares his vision for why English is becoming the new Assembly Language for llms why he believes that the future belongs not

just to coders but to people he calls word Artisans who can communicate effectively their Creative Vision to an AI system and what that means for the future of programming

computers Philip thank you so much for joining us today I'm excited to learn about you and wordware um and get your take on how you know programming computers is fundamentally going to change with large language models so

thank you for in it for the invite let's dig right in I want to start with Andre karpathy he had a tweet in 2023 that went viral the hottest new programming language is English what do you make of

that and what does it mean relative to what you are trying to build at word um I think syntax will not be as important you know everyone will be somewhat of a coder people used to have

to know python now English is enough however you still need to know what you're trying to say and in that way I would say um you know not everyone will

be able to use it because some people don't have that much to say and I would maybe rephrase it a little bit in a little bit more of an exciting way for

us is that the Assembly Language um to llms is English but you still have to structure it in the right way and you still have to use some of the concepts

even from typical programming in order to actually make sure that it does what it's supposed to do you heard it here first okay English is not the hottest new program programming language it is

the new Assembly Language and at wordwar you were trying to build that new programming language uh to work with that new that new Assembly Language I think bringing structure to human AI

collaboration ation is something that I've chosen to spend the next 10 years of my life on um and it's an exciting problem because uh you know right now

we're trying to mix the structure of programming which is very rigid and um deterministic with something that's intrinsically

fuzzy and that Maring of these Concepts and choosing the right affordances and the right obstruction layers um for that communication to be

incredibly easy yet enable people to do complex things is hard and this is what we are trying to do with wordware as the engine to enable the right mix of the

two let's talk a little bit more about no code I remember back when when I first got to Sequoia in 2018 I remember no code was the hottest thing ever and it was like you know we're not going to we're not going to program anymore um

and you know obviously some no code companies have done extremely well like rol for example uh but by and large we still have you know we have software Engineers today and so so far that no code promise hasn't really come to

fruition what's different now like what has changed um I think coming back to what I just said as well uh the Assembly

Language is English and um you I kind of have this small insecurity when people call wordware a no code Tool uh because

we have not yet reached um a ceiling with any of our clients so you can achieve absolutely everything we've created you know an ability to put in

code execution blocks which if you want an escape Hutch and wordware is not fully capable of everything uh you still can do it um and in that way you know

the document format of how to structure agents um and how to write them down one by one is still very similar to how code works we still have loops we still have

conditional statements and we you know have calling other flows which really is function calling you know um so in a way we don't see ourselves as a no code Tool

uh and we kind of believe that the word Crafters uh the word Artisans uh of the future are still coding it's just uh you know they are structuring the English in

a very precise way uh to make sure that the prompt is populated in the right manner h word crafters and word oens I like it wordware Engineers you've heard it here for

how are you using the English language then to make you know since you bristle at the no code term how are you making no code more codel like and maybe this is a good time to to just give a 30 second overview on you know the word we

product and how people use it to build things sure so um by trying to bring that structure to the intrinsically fuzzy English language we've created an

editor where you can use the similar Concepts to software engineering looping conditional statements functions calling

functions um and marry it in that editor in that natural language um IDE uh in a way that people can construct agents

something that we are not we are not coaching uh we go straight to agents and in my definition um agents are almost like they are still software they are

still a little bit like software taking in inputs and out outputting outputs but some of the stages of what they do is fuzzy so so uh marrying that structure

in the editor uh whatever you build there whatever you iterate on there you then have three different ways of deploying it you can deploy it as an API that will power your product or that AI

button or that AI chatbot that is a little bit more complex than just doing a vanilla API code to CLA or open AI That's number one uh number two is you

can deploy it as a workflow where you know the main uh part of the workflow is not like zap here it's more AI native uh and the Really the brain of the AI is a

little bit more complex than couple prompts trunk together and the Third Way the third thing that we're building is the GitHub for AI let's say uh for people to share and what they've done

and other people are able to then Fork it and use these things as components again marrying some concept from software engineering you need other people's components and libraries and

you know you want to be building on top of the uh on the shoulders of the Giants of of these AI thinkers so again wordware engine editor way to actually create these agents and then three

different ways to deploy I think one of the beauties of code is just its expressibility and its Precision you know you know exactly what you were telling the machine to do um and you were you know expressing it in some

languages in the most precise way possible English is not like that to your point it's fuzzy and so as you are turning the English language more Cod like should I think about that as you know helping with the control ability

and the stability of that or you know what is the I guess abstract thing you were doing with English to to make it more programmable yeah I think uh you're exactly correct we are trying to bring a

little bit more structure it's not all the way because if you go all the way to a programming language you lose the fuzziness and you lose the power of it um but it's hard and right now most of

the people you know we had this wave of Val evaluation software uh companies at some stage and what we've realized with bunch of companies that we work with is

that they don't know like they don't have these data sets to use for eval and what we came up with is um that editor

very quickly uh gets you to understand and have develop an intuition of what works and what doesn't work and for now this is the most important thing it's clicking run a 100 times quickly and

making sure that what you've written here has enough structure in order to Output things on the right side that you want and in that way you know as long as you

know what you're trying to achieve uh and this is very hard you know we have a lot of companies coming in and just saying AI predict weather I literally had a big customer say can you guys like

predict weather for me and you know that's not the case you need a document where you outline what you're trying to do and you know even that document that has enough structure if you have done

you know an intro those are the inputs you'll be you'll be playing around with images and PDFs and then you will manipulate it in this way and then you'll get some outputs and developing

that intuition um is just enough structure for today soon maybe we'll be able to do better evolves but for now a lot of

people really don't know at the moment when they start playing around with wordware they don't know what they are trying to achieve and one of our customers coin this term of speed of

creativity with wordware is uh is higher so they learn what they are actually trying to do as they encounter problems

with the underlying models and they realize Gemini 2.0 pro might be better and maybe Gemini can take huge

PDFs um and Claud can kind of take PDFs but smaller and then dpt4 cannot take PDFs and you know they develop that understanding and that helps them to structurize their

faults how do you instruct the machine to go from intent to outcome like let's say I'm a brilliant filmmaker and I want you know I want to use wordware to

create the next the next uh hit um what do I do uh in wordwar in order to make that happen yeah so for now we focus on knowledge workers where that is a little

bit easier I think using your example for figuring out how the future will be you know if we have let's say you know

George Lucas playing around hypothetically playing around with gpt7 and trying to create Star Wars um he might type in just the prompt

being like the two sentences uh and he would just say hey create a movie about wars between Star systems and that's just enough to give a

model an ability to run on its own and this is actually not what you want you want to convey your cre ative Vision which for now in word is just knowledge

work but soon it will be all work where it needs that human sprinkle that human taste and these are the things that I

really value is like people say oh nobody will have a job whatsoever I don't agree with it at all I think the human taste and how you do things will matter even more and I use this George

Lucas example because it's a little bit easier to understand how taste is influencing that but everywhere writing

a good email is um is dependent on Good Taste figuring out I was just hiring for an executive assistant and like everyone

in our company needs to show that taste and needs to show a little bit more conviction in the way that they do things so for executive assistant like she needed to choose a

right restaurant for our offsite you know and that also has taste I don't want to trust nii with this um um so yeah that's kind of that sprinkle of human touch is very important so taste

as the last Bastion of humanity I think so I think uh creativity and taste do you think do you think machines can learn human taste I think they can um

but that's not the point there is an interesting analogy here um they put humans into an MRI machine and they've shown them two different pieces of art

both of them were done by AI and uh we they told the people hey one is created by a human artist and another one is created by AI our brains work

completely differently and our different parts of the brain fire when we assume human intent behind something so you know I can create a song and just like

it will be a good song with sunno whatever and send it to my friend and he'll be like yeah it's a cool song but if I ingrain my intent and I'll create a

song about our um you know skiing trip to shamoni and I'll make it funny and I will that intent will be there I'm pretty sure his brain will be firing in

a completely different way giving him like giving him a completely different experience in that way does that make sense it makes a lot of sense yeah I love it I'm going to transition to talking about the next billion

developers and you've alluded to this a few times in the conversation and I I really want to just pull on that thread so you started this you know this this conversation by saying you know there's a certain set of people in the world

that know how to code uh but there's a different set of people in this world that have creativity and have ideas um do you think that set of people is larger is is that is that how we get to the next billion

developers there's an interesting analogy here uh we have 30 million software engineers in the world and we have 750 million active users of Excel and

now uh you will ask like how does wordware comp to Excel and what Excel did in the 80s to data analytics and numbers is what we are trying to do to

AI so in the 80s you either had to have a team of data analytics um people or Engineers um or you're using a calculator and I would say the calculator equivalent here is the chart

GPT that you every time you need to redo the conversation and you every time you need to instill your um own needs into it what wordware is trying to do is

saying hey a lot of the things that you do are repeatable similar to excel um and you can encode your taste into it um

with wordware um and I I believe that that taste will be important as as mentioned before and I think the next 500 million or a billion um users of AI

might be calling them I don't know what will be the term hopefully it's wordware engineer but uh you know word Artisan or or whoever and the really important part

here is that they need to know what the AI is supposed to do many many many times you know we are a horizontal tool and people come to us and they say hey

what can I do with AI and I tend to explain it as if for now it's an intern but intern after

University and you need to write out on a piece of P like piece of paper a couple things that you would want to do with the intern so you need to say hey um this is your job this is the you

know title of of what you're trying to do here are some of the documents or inputs that you'll be working with um here are the data sources and here's the

the output that I'm expecting of you and the important caveat here that people don't often understand is that the data sources has to be something that you trust you can't just say hey go and

search the internet because often you you end up with things that you don't agree with and if the intern works on top of that that's a problem and another one is and this is very

important is that you're going to trust the intern with this so you know if you want to send a thousand emails uh to every person that that that needs a

response in your inbox with some people you just want trust an intern to do this um and this is how like AI Works uh right now so as long as you have a job

right now that you say hey if I have an one intern I could easily explain it to them and a lot of our work is like this right now we often read an email go search and Dropbox go search notion and

then we create a response that is essentially based on this database that we curate um then you can be using Ai and I think more and more this knowledge

work is going to be automated and I think know in that way the next billion people are going to be um are going to need two things in

what actions to happen and taste how do you want to do this and all of the rest will will feel like CEOs of the biggest Enterprise because we will have a thousand knowledge workers working

beneath us and trying to actually execute on these two things what I heard just now was a lot of automation about knowledge work the I mean the thing that I'm most

intrigued about within Ai and within generative AI is its generative capacity uh including the ability to create create you know you mentioned the George Lucas example but also to create you

know new applications new marketplaces uh you know new products and so do you imagine do you see wordware primarily serving you know making the knowledge worker more productive or do you see it

also uh assisting in kind of the creation of new products Services uh you know pieces of art um for now it's

mostly about the productive work I would say um it's you know the AI engine is the AI heart of your product is wordware

um currently we have not dipped into the generative UI part of things we're not lovable um we've actually used lovable

to um you know rra our AI hard um for some of our customers and that has worked great I'm just so impressed with their product talk more about this uh

lovable I think also sees themselves as you know enabling the next billion Developers you see you you have a similar Vision uh you know how do you think your view of how the world will go

foots with with their view um and like why didn't you CH choose to make a you know that style of of a no code tool yeah because the way

that I see the word developer is a little bit different they see the word developer as what developers do today which is you know a lot of SAS is a wrap

around a database with some dashboard and ability to manipulate that data uh they are creating a much more personalized D dashboards you know and

um a lot of people are going to create incredible vertical size based on lovable and I think that's incredible and the one thing that was missing through all of this is that they not

only grabb the UI part they also grabed the database part which many people do not know how to manipulate and hence they unlocked a lot more use cases

whatever but what we are trying to to say is that this part of like creating a generative U creating a UI on top of a

database is not the future the future is to actually utilize this reasoning engine that an lmlm is in a productive

Manner and we focus on that that that you know substance of AI at the beginning you know in the future like we might want to expose that engine as a in

a UI maybe it's a chatboard maybe it's you know digesting some images Etc um but the real important part is the AI engine and yeah so if you think about an app as you know there's the UI there's

the application logic and there's a database what you're saying is you know you really want to just you know knock it out of the park on the application logic so to speak yes and I think you know

um the databases that we used to work on were um discret and and right now we are able to work on um a lot more data which

is not structurized and this is the big big difference right now a lot of sasses right now will still work in a similar manner just the database is fuzzy and

the database might be what you see uh every day and how the hell would you put that in a typical normal you know database um and I think working on top

of that context is the really exciting part for me let's go back to this concept of word Artisans or wordware Engineers if everything goes right of you know what's your vision of what a

wordware engineer looks like in 10 years oh that's a tough one um I've have been thinking a lot

about what does work look like in 10 years for human beings and I was struggling with this at the beginning because um

it's really hard to understand people's jobs even today and often I boil it down to um the software that they use they can talk a big game about strategy and you know I said the mission and in the

end of the day I ask them do you do meetings do you do email do you do PowerPoint presentations do you work in Excel what exact or do you work in code and I just want to understand what does

work look like in 10 years and like what are you really working with you know is it a hair like the movie Hair uh like interface when you just talk to the AI

and it does a lot of work for you I think to be honest voice is kind of not the best modality to express that hence I kind of think that in its simplest

form wordware is a document where you jot down your thoughts and you do it in a more structured way uh wordware a copilot AI is helping you throughout um

structuring it and in the end of the day you behave like a CEO which sets the strategy intent and all of that on that piece of paper essentially on this blank

canvas and you draw that Vision maybe it's even more than words it's just you know you generate this vision of how the how your own Enterprise works and you

know I look at different things around us and I see furniture or shoes or whatever and I think there is taste ingrained into what kind of shoe would

you like to make so in 10 years if somebody wants to be become a um a creator of the best brand of shoes it becomes about it that shoe

becomes a luxury object which has ingrained taste and intent in it and then a bunch of things in the end will be um will happen on its own the really

tough Parts even manufacturing it and so on will happen on its own but what's your job in the future is talking to other CEOs I think we will not humans

don't want to lose that control so you will talk with other CEOs about maybe doing a partnership with your shoe brand and somebody else you have to be still

critical about the intent of the other person and you have to instill taste and your own Creative Vision into that shoe do you think that you know do you think

a billion people globally will be capable of programming a machine uh in English language the way you describe or in wordware documents the way you describe because it does require you

know it's it's almost like pseudo coding and you know there is logic there's there's loops and things like that I guess maybe talk about today like do you need to be technical in order to use wordware like who is the ICP today and

what is needed to move that ICP so that you can reach a billion developers yeah I think um right now what we've enabled is people who are somewhat technical CEOs

technical PMS high up in the orc chart to ingrain their own like kind of think that they know what needs to happen and

get there quicker you know so um MOX from instacart for example uh he is a founder and he spent four days just you

know refining his idea in wordware instead of hiring a whole team but he is somewhat you know analytically minded and for now that's the case uh we did

not want to make too much magic because the the models were not there um right now what we're doing is we're moving more into that blank canvas when you just describe the idea and we take care

of guessing the right structure and you still will be able to you know in a very fine grained way edit it but you will start playing a lot more we'll probably

use O3 to get you to the first draft of how that flow works and um when we kind of loop Back to the Future of how it will all look like and really whether

we'll have 1 billion developers you know working in wordware it becomes a much bigger question here it becomes a question of like will a billion people want to do productive work like you know

we just talked about the shoe how many people will have the drive to put out something to the world and they will want to express that Creative Vision

maybe in you know post resource scarcity world most of the people want work but I think will still have the equivalent of billionaires and it will be about

influence it will be be about taste and it will be about how you utilize your own resources and how do you multiply it to have the equivalent of future money

and I went a little bit deep here but for what it's worth I think that I think the innate drive to create is like a deeply human drive and I think that

exists in a post post capitalistic world I also have that opinion and I really believe in humans like I want them to succeed like somebody asked me one of

our prospective employees asked me what like Philip in 10 years what do you want there to be like what what what what have you done and I want to save like

the human Creative Vision I don't want everything to be AI I really have the pleasure when I go to an artisan shop on my holiday and I know that somebody put in the intent and put in the work and I

want to interact with it and I want to interact with the story of it okay so today your ICP is the analytical career which is a little bit of a unicorn uh and over time as you kind of lower as the models get better as you iterate on

your interface you'll lower the bar so it'll really be just more of the creative is is as your ideal user you're going to lower the bar of how analytical you need to be in order to use word yes

but at the same time you know my use of the word creative is not to what most people associate it with right now I think a good creative is also you know

using growth channels in the right manner they are creative about everything that they do in this new uncertain word of AI where everything is changing and you know I'm not thinking

only about an artist that's painting on the canvas it's it's I I think creativity is um can basically

show itself in so many different aspects of work let's talk about user interfaces and you know the future goys the gooes of the future um right before we filmed

this podcast you made the analogy that you know Transformers or the new transistor maybe say a little bit more about that and what you think the new guey is going to be so I think the

analogy here is that if um the llm is the well if Transformer is the the new transistor and it's being packaged as the model the model is kind of the main

frame let's call it you know and then we took our sweet time to utilize the power of that main frame in a guey that's

accessible by billions of people you know there has been really two big um spikes there the first was the desktop you know and apple came coming up with

their guey um and the second one was mobile and um you know right now we are almost like exposing the numbers and the

logic in a chat style thing and nobody has had a better idea we think that the document style is better for create like

doing kind of more complex work um because often when you're trying to achieve something you just give it two sentences and the model just runs on its own and it's just enough the two

sentences our lead investor recently said that the two sentences is just about enough for a model to hang itself on and you know you will get something completely different than what you

actually wanted and this is a problem of like lovable ende devant of this world as well um but I basically think that uh

there are better goys coming and you know whether they will be based on AR or um you know there will be an assistant that's listening to everything that we

do I that was actually my first company um augmenting human memory of always on listening devices using gpt2 and BD I've been in this uh ah you've been in this since the gpt2 days I mean I my research

wasn't into lstms which are the precursor to the Transformer architecture and I've been in this for a while I think nobody has yet delivered on this I want everything that I hear to

be somewhere in a searchable database that also has the perfect context about me you know the way that I want to do things and I think those affordances and

those like we called it goey but it's really the underlying like way of interacting with intelligence uh is is not going to be mainly chat I just I just don't believe

it programmable documents do you think that is fundamentally what word looks like UI wise and call it 5 years um I think there is more and more

magic in it and uh I would believe that I want people still to be able to do that fine grain work you know we've we've linked it with George Lucas doing

the the movie you know in a way you almost want to firstly start with the high level thing the two sentence description and then zoom in and zoom in

and zoom in and create you know modules which make the best scene that is 5 seconds and then combine them together in that way so what I would like

wordware to be is uh to transcend uh obstruction layers and you know be able to zoom It All Out start

with a sentence and have it run maybe see whether it's working in the right Manner and then as you seeing that some things are not doing the thing that you want them to do is to be able to zoom in

and so and see maybe you know four senten of exactly what it's doing and what are the inputs to this what it's trying to do in the middle and what are the outputs you know that's kind of the

most simple one level in and then you want to zoom in more and more and more as you def re redefine and reiterate on

your idea of how this should be done how did you arrive at the current user interface I think it does feel really novel uh compared to how others are you

know enabling AI Builders today how did you arrive at the current user interface was it more experimentation listening to users was it you philosophizing about

you know what it should be I think uh currently the and currently and before the approach to creating these

agents was a Blog based on a 2d canvas and once you know we I've been building agents for a long time you know I think you know March 2023 I put out

the first article about how to build agent and me and Robert my co-founder we've been in this for a long time and the more the better the models got the

prompting became more difficult because you can do more complex things with it so at some stage there was this movement of like the prompt is going away so on we actually really disagreed with it and

that that idea has gone a little bit it's it's like you know we came back did a loop again and be like actually communicating your vision is really important and when we tried to communicate our vision which was a

little bit ahead of what the models could have done at the time we started to not notice that the 2D canvas uh is just not enough like if you do a reflection Loop inside of a reflection

Loop you run out of dimensions and we basically really like the way that code is structured code has

an ability to uh Express very very complex uh Concepts in a way that is still like you can still manipulate it

and understand it think about trying to structure the you know the whole Uber up with all of like everything in it on a 2d canvas it would become so cluttered

and so messy you know you can do the big picture thing but not really the you know you you don't want Engineers to be interacting in that that way you want the engineers on the future wordware Engineers to be interactive with

something that's easy to grasp the structure of very complex systems whereas the Uber app actually could probably be described in pseudo code uh and it seems like you're you know you're

getting people closer to that Vision versus the 2D canvas um yes and I think you know the most important part here is that Uber has an agent equivalent and

this is what we are trying to build you know if you want an agent to decide where is that person going and where are they starting their journey and whether

they will accept uh that charge or you know you want to maybe make sure that the charge is right for that particular person there is an agent equivalent there and you know people are going like

people can build that agent on wordware it's not like you're going to create that whole UI with with with with for Uber and I think you know probably Uber

is the right obstruction layer you don't want to be ordering an Uber through a chatbot or through like a voice-based thing or you know but you might want an

Uber to be uh to be ordered for you if you have a calendar invite so you know in a way that like for your personal use Uber is nice because you can click

around and the agent will not always know but I was coming here and I wanted like a wayo actually wayo can't get that far yet but I wanted the wayo to be ordered and to be ordered perfectly when

I need this and it's almost like a assistant personal assistant would do this for me and now that capability is open to everyone so we'll soon have these kind of ordinances and these kind of obstruction layers there I think

that's a great note to end on should we end on a lightning round uh let's go okay one one or two sentence answers only uh okay first question what is your

most hot take or contrarian take in AI not related to word wear or everything we just discussed uh pre-training was still

going to matter and deep seek is a little blimp that people liked to uh people jumped on because people love a

good drama and it was connected to China and actually it doesn't matter that much um okay I know I said lightning round but you you have to say more what what do you mean it doesn't matter that much

I mean they utilize some cool techniques and the rest of the community is going to learn from that uh however you know like the fact that they like trained it

for a little bit cheaper for like a lot cheaper does not involve all the experimentation that they did before that and you know I'm I don't know if I'm supposed to say that but I'm pretty

sure they had access to the best nvidias as well for that experimentation and um it's not that novel like people jumped on it because

they were like oh my God China is taking over the race and so on and Nvidia stock price like plummeted and I just think it's another place where some models were trained that were open sourced and

it's not going to you know we're not going to remember it in like a like like a year or like even six months or maybe they will take over but the model doesn't really matter that much how you

kind of work with that best model out there that's what matters that is a hot take indeed okay next question who's going to have the best Frontier Model

next year o um I think open AI is always super bullish and they always promise a lot and then uh I was just on a talk with with uh Sam outman on the yci

retreat and the O3 that the way that he pictured it sounded great but I think we both know that they overpromise a little bit a lot uh and I

love anthropic uh I think their kind of vision and their kind of the way that they've created this is great but recently Gemini 2.0 pro with their

abilities to you know ingest 6,000 pages of of PDF is really blowing my mind so end of the story is I have no clue this is a place where this is a place where

it's super fragmented and people have zero loyalty pre-training is hitting a wall I think you know famous people including Ilia have been have included saying something to that extent recently

agree or disagree uh disagree uh right now I think you know it's the intelligence of a model is linked logarithmically to the

resources that is are needed to train it but you know doing a 2X of intelligence is

in its on its own exponential like if I'm smarter tox than somebody else it doesn't mean I'll do 2x of the work it means that I'll find ways that probably

mean I'm a 10x or even more favorite new AI app not wordware uh I would say I started to edit content because uh we need to explain and educate people a

little bit more about both wordware and AI so the script is something that I've been I've been loving and I use granola every day uh and the newest model that

I'm really impressed is the Gemini 2.0 pro um I really like it that is that's a hot take as well I haven't heard much of that from people I think it came out like four days ago so people have not

been playing around with it their PDF capabilities are awesome what application or application category do you think will really go mainstream and hit this year I would love to see I'm

personally very very involved with that call um AI having the context of your life and being able to you know

basically make better decisions based on the context and you know I've rewind which you know I think it they are called Limitless right now I've

ordered their pendant by the way it's been like a year and a half and I still don't have it uh I don't know send it to me you're listening please send it uh

and I had to change a color cuz I they didn't have the color but I would love for there to be a provider which has a lot more context and can do the personal

stuff for me uh don't you think that's Apple over time I was just about to say I think ideally that n421 model or whatever it's called of the AR glasses

that they are trying to push out there which I think Facebook has taken over a little bit maybe we'll see early um stages of that and I think they're the

only ones where the Privacy really like they have a good brand around privacy and two even if you're new AR glasses run out of battery it's still cool to be

wearing a $5,000 you know uh piece of hardware and maybe does the ux but I don't know what's that ux and like a microphone so

far failed um yeah single piece of content that an AI official AO should read or

watch I would say all of the deep learning.ai resources everyone like we have bunch of candidates apply for jobs by the way we are hiring whatever I

should be looking uh very very aggressively so come join wordware but uh The Deep learning. a resources are awesome and they explain everything from

uh from the bottom layer all the way to the Practical uh layer of how to actually get it done um I also think if you don't understand the underlying

technology go see free blue one brown an incredible Channel on YouTube and they explain everything super well um yeah I think wonderful your Lightning Run was

full of hot takes I didn't even have to ask you for a specific hot take uh well philli thank you so much for coming on I really enjoyed chatting about you know how you see the world evolving from

developers to word Artisans or word you know word uh wear engineers everything goes right and appreciate you sitting down to share your vision and your hot

takes thank you for having me thank you [Music]

[Music]