FULL INTERVIEW: Uber Founder Travis Kalanick is Back with a New AI Startup

We have our next guest ready to join us live in the TVP and Ultronome.

We have Travis Kalanick. He is the CEO of Cloud Kitchens. Welcome to the show, Travis. Great to meet you. Appreciate you coming on down to our

Travis. Great to meet you. Appreciate you coming on down to our studio, our humble boat. Great to meet you. We are truly an honor. I'm just

down the street. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. We were actually, we started the show in downtown LA at the Jonathan Club on Figueroa. And so I think we were even closer then. There you go. It's still not far. How are things going?

How's life? Whoa. Can we turn that down? We're getting some feedback. Wow, that was crazy. Man, it's crazy. Yeah? What's crazy? The building doesn't stop, guys.

crazy. Man, it's crazy. Yeah? What's crazy? The building doesn't stop, guys.

Okay. I mean, I don't know how much you guys, I mean, I've just, I've been in hiding. So I've been doing this. I run a company called City, up until today, let's just say, I was

this. I run a company called City, up until today, let's just say, I was running a company called City Storage Systems, which was basically about the future of food.

A conglomerate operating in about 30 countries, the whole idea was, can you get a meal that's prepared and delivered to you so efficient that it starts to approach the cost of going to the grocery store? Because if you do, you do to the kitchen what Uber did to the car. So I've been doing that since 2018.

after just the intensity of Uber from, in terms of like being in the public sphere, dealing with a hundred headlines every day, deciding what you do or the actions you take based on what the New York times is going to write. I

was like, I would like to just, it is very tough. So, uh, I was just like, I got to wake up every day and sort of just get to work and build. So I went under the radar. I, you think of this as like stealth mode? Is that the right term? We've been in stealth mode for eight years. Okay. And that's like, till today, employees were not

years. Okay. And that's like, till today, employees were not allowed to put the name of the company on their LinkedIn. Wow. We have thousands of employees. Yeah. That's crazy. Okay. So today what happened was, is like for my

of employees. Yeah. That's crazy. Okay. So today what happened was, is like for my company and I just got up in all hands and then came right here is we went out of stealth. Yep. Now, City Storage Systems is like a hilarious name.

It's like the most, like, let me choose the most generic name that no one will ever notice. The Business Corporation of America. It was on purpose. Yeah. Okay. And

it worked. It worked. It was like, we had two choices when we, when we launched. Yeah. Um, we had what my sort of normal instinct was.

launched. Yeah. Um, we had what my sort of normal instinct was.

Remember it was only seven, eight months after I left Uber when I started this.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, let's just say the mission is infrastructure for better food. We

have hardcore real estate assets. We buy the assets, we do construction, we sell restaurateurs on a delivery-only location. I have a software stack that's like ARR, ARR life. I've got a robotics company. I have a marketplace for corporate lunch. There's

ARR life. I've got a robotics company. I have a marketplace for corporate lunch. There's

a ton of stuff going on. We use it. Oh yeah, that's right. That's right.

Of course. Yeah. It's great. All right. I love it. Okay. So, shit, I forgot what I was saying. So, So it's just a very different business from Uber. Some

people would leave that company and be like, I'm going to start the exact same thing. I got the playbook. This is what the Uber guys, when I left, were

thing. I got the playbook. This is what the Uber guys, when I left, were like a little bit worried about. This is, we're talking about 2017, 18. They're paranoid.

So my instinct was, okay, I left it seven months later. I'm going to name my company super. You leave a company called Uber, you call it super. Or call

it giga. I'm like, you go from Uber to super, you're like, no, that cannot be a thing. And so I did the opposite. Full underground, full stealth, put the toothpaste back in the tube, the genie back in the bottle, and built literally thousands of employees. And it's like a vacuum of information, full

of employees. And it's like a vacuum of information, full lockdown. It's been great building. But today we sort of came out and we

lockdown. It's been great building. But today we sort of came out and we renamed the company. We renamed what we do. We call it Adams. Okay. But we

started a new company at the same time. And so let's just say like, like physical AI and robotics action and movement through the physical world. Of course, on the food side, we already have all the things I just talked about. But, but think of it as like, um, I'm trying to

get the mission. I'm so riled up. It's so fresh. Yeah, it's so fresh. But

basically, it's... Yeah, so I'll leave it at that. We can get rolling here. I'm

like super caffeinated on four hours of sleep. I love it. I love it. How

much harder... In many ways, I think building in stealth for so long made a lot of things easier, right? You're not running your business based on headlines or thinking about what headlines are going to come. What are the ways in which you made it harder? I imagine there's a lot of talent out there that wants to go

it harder? I imagine there's a lot of talent out there that wants to go work at the hot company that's in the news constantly. I'm sure you got the benefits of people maybe opting out of that path and saying, hey, I just want to come in with you and build, and I don't care about the hype, and I don't need every recruiter hitting me up constantly because of whatever's on my LinkedIn.

But what were the kind of key challenges and why why was now the right time to come out and start to get loud again? So like first, I mean 100%. So imagine every recruiter has to be outbound. Every salesperson has to be outbound. There's no inbound. That's where it starts. You get good at your craft

be outbound. There's no inbound. That's where it starts. You get good at your craft when that's what you have to do. I believe we have some of the best recruiters in the world because of it. And one of the best recruiting systems. Now they leverage, okay, you're working with Travis, former founder of Uber, like there's leverage there.

But then you have a name like City Storage Systems and it's like, so do you guys just have like these boxes sitting in parking lots? Like what is this?

And that's sort of like, the reason it's different now is because look, number one, lots of times since the Uber, from having to live that life.

But two is the world is different. Like in 2016, 2017, the world of let's call it business press was just beginning to say business is politics, but people didn't know it. They're like, if New York Times says something, everybody just treated it as the gospel. Like it just must be true. And if they say something bad, it must be true. I believe

everything I read on the internet is an example. And so, and by the way, it's, this sounds crazy, but 2017, the media world was actually more negative then than it is today. And I think partly because it even shows like this, it's like, let's bring some optimism to the party. Can we get excited about what the future looks like and what's being built? And that's the difference between today and then. And

so when you go, 95% of all press is negative, you're like, why engage? When

the world is used to business being politics, let's just say. And if

I thought of my favorite journal, sorry, my favorite politician and say, what does the internet say that's bad about them? And it's like an insane amount. What does the internet say that's neg or sorry, untrue about them? And it's a ton of stuff.

And you go, well, that's how they're going to think about our company too. That's

how it's going to play. We're now, we're desensitized to that stuff. And now we can get back to optimism and building and not be so worried about, you know, 95% of the media just being negative. Sure. Yeah, I mean, this is pretty, like, whole trend of going direct, right? Like Lulu, I'm sure you've met at some point, basically coached a generation of CEOs on, you know, you just can't, if you want

to have any control over how people perceive you, You need to tell your story.

You have to counteract with a story, not a statement. And the boilerplate official statement just doesn't entertain people as well as a full read, a long read.

And it's also guys like, Elon owns Twitter now. Yeah. It's X. Yeah. Right?

Pre-post is like a massive difference in the mix of sort of ideas that can get out there. And again, you're allowed to be optimistic about things where maybe before everything had to be negative and sort of that kind of thing. Yes, you talked about the initial idea of naming the next company Super. That would have, in many

ways, I'm sure, turned into basically a spite company. Yeah, where

you're just, in this case, kind of taking the high road was, I'm just going to be quiet. I'm going to do... the years and years and years and years of just like chewing glass, building up this infrastructure, getting to scale, getting to thousands of employees, getting to operating globally before you even poke your head up again, which I think is to any of your former critics, that's to me, that's taken the

high road basically. Yeah, and what you get when you create a culture around that is you then build a culture of builders. You build a culture of people that want to build and do not need to be famous when they do it, which basically means emotional intelligence. Now, it's a human nature. I want to be acknowledged for the things that I do. I'd like... the things I build to be seen. And

I'd like somebody to know that I did it. And so this is when you cut against sort of the core of human nature and we sort of went all the way. And so we have a very high EQ culture, but like

the way. And so we have a very high EQ culture, but like it is like you have to go the extra mile to recruit, the extra mile in sales, et cetera. Again, the world's different. LFG. Are the laws of physics of the different I'm just thinking about your career arc with like red swoosh

is enterprise communications. You're in a very particular industry. Uber is a consumer company. Now you're working on something that looks, you probably run into like real estate

company. Now you're working on something that looks, you probably run into like real estate developers. It's like a different industry, different community. Has there been some of these things

developers. It's like a different industry, different community. Has there been some of these things that you've adjustments and what's different, what's the same? What can you just be a good business operator and power through? And what do you actually have to learn about the new industry? Look, I think probably the biggest one is

when you go from consumer to B2B, the number one mega challenge that you must master is called LTV to CAC. Yes, you can make that argument on consumer, but when you have a sales funnel that starts with, I'm going to talk to customers, and I have to make LTV to CAC work, versus like, my LTV to CAC

is the app store, it's a whole different ballgame. And LTV to CAC with a sales machine, especially if you go small business, this is like life in hard mode. And talk to anybody who's crushed it on SMB, Like those guys are special individuals who've made that happen because life in the SMB

B2B world is no joke. Yeah. So talk about moats. I feel like Uber is the greatest example of network effects and runaway scale. What do

what did moats look like? Red Swoosh, what were you thinking then? And then what does it look like now? So like nobody knows what Red Swoosh is. Yeah, sorry.

That's all good. So guys, I started a company in 2001. Yeah. That was, let's call it BitTorrent meets Akamai. Yeah. Sold to Akamai. Before BitTorrent existed. Yeah.

Okay, that's crazy. You click on a link and you can pull from other PCs that already have that file or that video stream, but it looks like the internet.

That's basically what it was. The first four years, no salary.

Wow. Had some famous investors. Famous investors. You

know, like, Mark Cuban was on the board of Red Swoosh. So,

Before that scour was Ovitz and Ron Burkle. That was the company before that. Oh,

I was confusing that too. Yeah, anyways. So there's a network effect there once you get the CDN up and running. That company wasn't meant to be, and I willed it into being. And I sold it to Akamai for like, I think it was like 19 million bucks. And probably to this day is still the happiest day of my life. It was crazy. I cleared

my life. It was crazy. I cleared

three million, and I was like, praise the Lord. Okay, so then Uber, very obvious moats and scale economies. What does this look like with atoms? What does

this look like in both you know, the food delivery, kitchen model, real estate model, but then also where we're going in autonomous robotics. Look, if you look at where modes are and really you're looking for network effects in different places, right? So right now I have these facilities, there's 30 restaurants in each of them.

right? So right now I have these facilities, there's 30 restaurants in each of them.

Picnic is like a perfect example of this, right? You order from your office, looks like Uber Eats or DoorDash, you get 100 options except all the meals are coming out of my facilities. There's one courier that brings 100 orders at a time, but it's on demand and it's personalized for you and we've got enough facilities near here

that you can basically get anything. And so who can play ball?

Like you gotta have the real estate. That's a frickin' moat. You have the network effect now of like, what if I sell every floor on every tower, meaning every office floor is on this, and I have shelves in all of these floors. That

means that one courier can bring 100 orders, and by the way, I'll have five couriers going to a single office with 500 orders hitting every shelf, and you get notified when it arrives. If you even took one floor, you would be sad because your economics are going to be screwed because you don't have the efficiency or the operation depth to make it work. So there's network effects of a building.

There's network effects on a facility with kitchens in it.

But then there's the moat of we own real estate. Yeah. Okay, so like if you want to compete with us, go buy 100 million. So very high. Billions of

dollars of real estate in every major city in the world. And then we're going to go head to head. Yeah, talk about capital. Yeah, the other the other the I don't know exactly what what bucket this falls in. But just just the mode of you would have to be absolutely insane to compete with people were people were like this is how I remember the Uber versus Lyft battle was Uber was doing

so well. And then all of a sudden a whole bunch of VCs were like,

so well. And then all of a sudden a whole bunch of VCs were like, I want a piece of that and I didn't get Uber. So I'm funding the, but I'm saying in the context of, of cloud kitchens and city storage, like even though people generally figured out what you were up to, right? You did have to share some little things along the way, or you buy this company or, or

sit there. You gotta, you gotta go to a website and say, What is a

sit there. You gotta, you gotta go to a website and say, What is a delivery-only location? What the hell is that? And so somebody had to know. But even

delivery-only location? What the hell is that? And so somebody had to know. But even

then, we're like, we're going to say the cross streets of the facility, not the actual address. These are the little moves you do to be stealth.

actual address. These are the little moves you do to be stealth.

When I look at the new site and how everything's positioned, a lot of it feels insulated from all the changes and progress that we're seeing in AI and in many ways accelerated because you'll get a lot of the benefits of AI progress and progress in robotics, but you're moving physical

atoms around the world in an era where you can generate any piece of software fairly quickly This feels like you've been kind of planning for this type of technology progress. Sounds great, dude. I love that. I love it. Yeah, dude. It's

all in the plan. Look, I think it's always been the plan. A meal that's efficient, so efficient it starts to approach the cost of going to the grocery store.

A meal that's prepared and delivered to you. That's real. You must do automated production of food. You must do... automated delivery of the meal. I call that autonomous burritos,

of food. You must do... automated delivery of the meal. I call that autonomous burritos, which is why I'm moving into this, making this move on Adams, which is okay.

We're still doing the food thing, but then we're adding mining and transport. Okay. Uh,

mining being like more, you know, we like to say more efficient minds for earth's industries or, uh, on transport. It's just robot, a wheelbase for robots.

Okay. Okay. Because if you're going to do specialized robots, not humanoids, but specialized robots, they need to have wheels. Okay. Right. I like to say, like, if you saw the Beijing, in Beijing, they had the humanoid Olympics. Yeah. And the half marathon and you're watching the humanoid cruising. I'm like, dude, could you imagine if that thing had wheels? That'd be crazy. So like humanoids have their place, but there's,

there's a lot of room for specialized robots that, that do things in an efficient sort of industrial scale kind of way, which is sort of where we play.

I want to go back to Capital Wars, lessons from Capital Wars, when these play out, because we're seeing this- The OG. The OG. Yeah. My- Well,

were you the OG because, or when this Capital War kicked off, were you looking to lessons from the nineties? I mean, look, you can always say there was the guy before. Yeah. Okay. you know, Rockefeller was the OG and then before him

guy before. Yeah. Okay. you know, Rockefeller was the OG and then before him was like the Medici, I don't know, but I was, I was the goat for a period of time and now I'm a baby goat and that's okay. Uh,

and so then one day the baby goat will grow up again. It's going to be fine. I, I, I just mean like, um, This idea of like you have

be fine. I, I, I just mean like, um, This idea of like you have a network effect, it's growing, and then you see a bunch of venture capitalists start throwing money at like the second place and there's this debate over catching up and like how do you What motes do you retreat to in that moment? Like, I

feel like that's the lesson from the Uber story that gets missed amid all the random drama is that there's actually like a very interesting financial war happening. And it

played out very well for you. And I'm wondering like what level of confidence you had, what did you do strategically to set yourself up for success? It's a super interesting thing because of course all the AI guys are playing that game right now, which is the ability to attract capital. The capital wars becomes a strategic weapon. Capital becomes a strategic weapon, which means you must be the

best at getting capital in order to win. And we realized that early on in the Uber days, of course that's happening times 10 in the sort of, let's call the digital AI wars. And look, the last round of funding that I did at Uber, we were like a 70 million, I don't know, it was like a 60, $70 billion pre. Let's see that. Yeah. When that used to be a thing.

Now I go, that's small stuff. But we had four rooms. This is our, our, how we'd fundraise. We had four rooms in our New York office booked for a week with an hour and a half slot on each. So like for 12 hours in a day, four rooms going in parallel. I was in the- Are you

bouncing between them? No, I'm in the $250 million and over club. Okay. That's one

room and it goes all, there's all these other rooms to the fourth room is like $25 million checks. Okay. Okay. There's a guy who works for a guy who works for a guy who works for me, who's doing that room. Yeah. Okay. And

then, but we're oversubscribed. So we started putting multiple, investors in the same room were like, dude, we're just out of slots, dude. Like, let's go.

But what it means is it's about the system. It's about the system for sort of acquiring that capital at scale and super efficiently. And what it means is that storytelling that we did, anybody in my team could tell that story, let's say on the strategic finance team, could tell that story and make it happen. And that was

a big part, it was the story that's just like, of course, like if I'm pitching it, people are like, holy shit, let's go. Then there is making it scalable so that there are 10 different people in a company that can pitch it at any given time. And that's when you take it all the way.

And then there's like even auction dynamics of how you would do it. We would

basically, once they said they were interested, we would then give them a piece of paper. It was like digital, but it was like, you need to fill out this

paper. It was like digital, but it was like, you need to fill out this table, which is this valuation, how much money you want to put in this valuation, how much money, this much money, this, this valuation, how much money. And then we would aggregate the demand. It's like building an IPO book. Yes. But like done way better because you don't respect to the bankers. But like, I was in charge of

pricing. And so, and then you're like, oh, we're trying to clear $5 billion, that

pricing. And so, and then you're like, oh, we're trying to clear $5 billion, that takes us to this price. We would tell all these guys, hey, your price isn't big enough because you don't make it under the curve. And then they would move their price and then that would change the curve and you would do it again.

Makes sense. Were you bringing new investors to private markets at that time? I feel like if I go back to Facebook, I think they IPO'd around

time? I feel like if I go back to Facebook, I think they IPO'd around 50 billion. You're doing a $70 billion raise. There's a lot of different, it's a

50 billion. You're doing a $70 billion raise. There's a lot of different, it's a completely different shape of investor. What were those conversations like? Look, in some ways I have to give some credit. It was an era where this was happening. You had

like the Fidelities of the world and other guys that are moving in. I have

to give credit to Drew at Dropbox. He was like the first guy in that game. And you know, Drew and I'd meet up and we'd, you know, and I'd

game. And you know, Drew and I'd meet up and we'd, you know, and I'd be like, flex. I'm like, dude. What's up? I love Drew.

You're like, this is our little safe space. Yeah, it was like Chesky at Airbnb.

Like that was the crew that was doing it in the 2010s. Yeah. And sort

of. pushing the boundaries of what it meant to be, like people didn't even know what private equity, what is private equity? Now we're just like, yeah, private equity. That's

VC, it's the same thing. And back then, private equity is like, I do leverage buyouts. And so you're bringing private equity, mutual funds, those guys into the game in

buyouts. And so you're bringing private equity, mutual funds, those guys into the game in a way that didn't exist before, now it's just old hat. Have you coached any of the AI founders on fundraising? I was going to ask the exact same thing.

Culturally, like that crew that you just described, most of them have been on the show. It feels very different aesthetically than what we're dealing with today.

show. It feels very different aesthetically than what we're dealing with today.

Yeah, but I'm sure Chesky's pumping up Sam. I love these guys. I love them all. That's so interesting. Look, the times when I get hit up... Yeah.

all. That's so interesting. Look, the times when I get hit up... Yeah.

are usually when the shit is about to hit the fan or it's actually hitting the fan. They're like, dude, somebody needs to call Travis immediately. He'll know what to

the fan. They're like, dude, somebody needs to call Travis immediately. He'll know what to do. So I, so

do. So I, so my phone's like, what are the crazy wild wackiest things going down or like here?

Because that's when I usually get the call and I'm so underground. That's what happens.

But like, I should, you know, I should give, you know, I know these guys, I should give them a call and be like, dude, we should, let's cook.

I still think we probably did things better than anybody that some of those things probably are still better than anybody even today. But obviously the check size much bigger.

Is that approach like systematizing fundraising, productizing it? Do you,

apply that across the entire, is that like everything that you do that is important?

You're, you're creating like a ground up kind of solution for it. Well, like for instance, I mean, this will, you know, this is just crazy, but like, how about when you do construction? You know how effed up construction is? I tell my guys that, uh, in the, in the real estate department, I'm like, you're entire

department is the anti-fraud department. Oh yeah. You know, guys just are incentivized to just run. So how do you do epic high quality construction at an

run. So how do you do epic high quality construction at an insanely efficient price? There's a way not going to tell you, but there's a way. Do you have any, uh, like white pills or ideas that potentially AI speeds up the rate of building broadly, like solving the housing crisis through

permitting, permitting, stuff like that. This is so one of the things is that, and I think people are starting to come out of this now, this whole like, the jobs are gone. Like I know still people still say that, but there's another side to this story and like, I'll just make this cause I'm the Adams guy. I'm

like, let's just talk about plumbers. Okay. Let's say the entire world, everything in our world was automated except for plumbers. Okay. Okay. You had machines making buildings. You would basically have like a thousand buildings a day. A thousand buildings being

buildings. You would basically have like a thousand buildings a day. A thousand buildings being built at a single time in Los Angeles alone. Sure. Just machines doing. Yeah. Except

plumbers. Okay. How valuable would those plumbers be? Extremely valuable. Okay. Those guys, each and every plumber would be like LeBron. Okay. Why? Why? Because, because

because plumbing is the long pole in the tent to progress. That you can't get those thousand buildings unless you have a plumber. And by the way, you got so much efficiency everywhere else that you need millions of plumbers. And then the plumbing is like, what's up? And so once you realize that, then you're like, until we get super AGI,

humans are valuable. And they are going to become more and more valuable because they will be the long pole in the tent to progress. And that progress is going to accelerate and get faster and more, you know, more robust, except if you're a plumber, you're crushing. And so until we get to humans are

replaced, like fully, fully, And by the way, I think we have solutions for that.

I think Elon's got that at Neuralink. It's going to be all good. And then

people are like, oh, God. But until we get there, I believe we're going to be super fine. That's my white pill. Yeah, it does.

If you have plumbers that are getting paid like LeBron, it obviously increases the prize pool of automating technology. But again, there's like these kind of windows. But there's going to be a bunch of things like plumbing and it's not just plumbing. It's going

to be all over the place. And even when it comes to software, so like for instance, look at like autonomous cars. Waymo has

people that oversee the rides. Yeah. Okay. And it starts with like, okay, five rides for every person. Then it goes to 20, then it goes to 100. But like

if we get to this place where autonomous cars are everywhere, okay? And let's just say it's one in a thousand. And like nobody owns cars, there's just ride sharing everywhere. I mean, some people own cars, but it'd be the top of the pyramid,

everywhere. I mean, some people own cars, but it'd be the top of the pyramid, let's say. Okay, so what do we replace? Billions of cars with ride sharing?

let's say. Okay, so what do we replace? Billions of cars with ride sharing?

If it was a thousand to one, you still probably have, I don't know, 20 million jobs, 50 million jobs. I'm just riffing on just the concept of this. You

will see this everywhere is that, Until humans are fully replaced, we become the long pole in the tent to progress. And that progress by the way is to serve us. Robots yet don't yet have bank accounts. So that

plumber gets paid. Anyways, you get that. You mentioned mining. Yeah. Have you been to a mine recently? You visited a mine? Like what's going on in mining? I

imagine that mines are fairly automated already. There's machinery. There's thousands of employees.

Okay. At a given mine. Um, and, and that's work that he, there's so many resources. Children, children yearn for the minds of Minecraft, but it's not the best, not

resources. Children, children yearn for the minds of Minecraft, but it's not the best, not the best job. Like maybe that's actually how it gets, you know, maybe that's where it goes. Yeah. Ender's game situation. Look, the,

it goes. Yeah. Ender's game situation. Look, the,

it's interesting. You go a lot of times they're like, Oh, um, oh, well, is labor really the issue in mind? Is that really a thing? But what it really comes down to is productivity. So if a mine is automated, then it can run all hours of the day and night. It doesn't have off

hours. The way machines queue up, doing that really

hours. The way machines queue up, doing that really efficiently, like computer science style, I call it digitizing the physical world. you can make that mind substantially more productive. What is the value of a more productive mind? And

by the way, let's get to the real sort of the outcome here, is does the world as we enter this sort of new golden age that's about to come, do we need more minerals? Do we need more materials? Look around us guys.

Absolutely, it's like huge. Look around us in this studio or walk outside. Everything you

see is grown or mined. manufactured and moved.

So if you're not in the mining business, like you're like, let's just say that my, like I shouldn't say that, but like it's a very critical part of the situation. I can't wait till we're putting some machines on,

situation. I can't wait till we're putting some machines on, SpaceX's rockets to go mine an asteroid or a planet or whatever. In the meantime, lots of mines on planet Earth. Lots of work to do. So what level of abstraction do you want to operate at? Do you want to go and find land and mine it? Because that's sort of on the table. If I look at what

you're doing in food, you own real estate. Or do you want to sell tools to mining companies that already have explored and they understand and they're running up and running? How do you think? I'm not... I'm not buying land for mines anytime soon.

running? How do you think? I'm not... I'm not buying land for mines anytime soon.

That's just not anytime soon. But- In the next three months. Yeah. He's like,

what? Not anytime soon. 120 days out. I

just think it's super fascinating. Again, it's just like, I'm an Adams guy. I'm like all about digitization of the physical world. And

I have this framework for it, which is like, CPU manipulates bits, storage stores bits, network moves bits from point A to point B. I was a computer engineer at UCLA, I didn't graduate, but I loved it. Those are the three core computing resources that you're told about on day one. But if you're treating atoms like bits, digitizing the physical world, CPU manipulates bits, what manipulates atoms? Manufacturing.

Storage stores bits, what stores atoms? Real estate. Network moves bits from point A to point B, what moves atoms? transport logistics. I didn't know it then, or I didn't think about that way exactly. But at Uber, we were building network for the physical world, also known as digitized transportation. City storage systems then make sense.

Storage for the physical world, that's real estate. We're building atoms based computers with a real estate foundation. Storage, right? But now leveling up and saying, okay, we have a food computer. What about a mining computer? And what

about a wheel-based platform to serve industry generally? Yeah. If I look at the last two decades of your career, you're uniquely good at managing very geographically spread out workforces. What is the secret? I

could never get behind the remote work thing. Everyone here works in one studio, but you've had to do it basically because you had to have a presence in New York. You had to have a presence in LA and you can't be in

New York. You had to have a presence in LA and you can't be in 10 places at once. How do you do it? There's a difference between remote work where somebody works at home and they're like in boxers and then a suit. Okay.

Versus we have an office in every major city in the world and whatever city you're in, you're going to that office every day, five days a week and sometimes six or seven and that's it. But satellite offices still feel like a headache.

How did you solve it? Because you can only be in one place. Yeah, I

guess I just, I cracked the code so thoroughly in Uber times before, I think maybe even before anybody else, it almost feels like normal. But I basically have figured out the management and leadership structures where the real thing is about empowerment. You must be able to empower teams.

I like to say the fewest number of rules while staying out of chaos. And

once you have those systems in place... your imagination is only constrained by management capacity. So once you figure out the management piece, your imagination can go pretty damn far. And so it's just figuring out the management part of this is the thing. Talk about empowering young people. We've had a ton of founders on the

the thing. Talk about empowering young people. We've had a ton of founders on the show. who have the origin story of like, yeah, I was the GM of Miami

show. who have the origin story of like, yeah, I was the GM of Miami or so, or he sent me to Atlanta and I was me in a hotel room with a bunch of energy drinks and we had to open up this market so we had to do a stunt and hire some people. And it just felt like, startup within a startup is a bad phrase that gets sort of misused, but

why were you, you weren't, this wasn't your first company with Uber, why were you so heavy on leaning on young people, empowering them, pushing them? It wasn't on purpose.

It was just the right answer. Okay. Why?

Yeah, I mean, once you have a city team and you're like, okay, I need to find people that can run this, like, old people aren't the answer. Like, I

need fresh... I didn't think of it as like, I gotta get youthful people or not. I'm just like, I need good talent that can go do X and who

not. I'm just like, I need good talent that can go do X and who has no judgment on what it is we gotta get done. And it was just like water flows downhill. So what do you look at? It was like the first driver ops guy that we brought in

at? It was like the first driver ops guy that we brought in in San Francisco in 2010, we basically took 200 cards and put names on them. And we said, alphabetize them. and we just would

them. And we said, alphabetize them. and we just would measure how much time it took to alphabetize. We would give them like crazy analytics tests and then we're like, okay, this is our guy. You know what I mean?

Free AI. If you're on the marketing manager, if you're on the marketing manager, but even today, you'd still want that guy. Even today. So like, You can't use AI, now alphabetize in the most efficient way. Now, if you know computer science, sorting is like a big fricking deal. Sorting efficiently and being able to do that in

your brain, not in software is a thing. That's what ops people do. Yeah, that

makes sense. So I don't know. I don't know how to answer that question other than problem solving, whether you're young or old, executive or junior, who can solve problems is number one. When you interview, simulate what it's like working together so that day one is really like week two.

And you're already pumped because you saw them in action. How are you, with Adams, how are you thinking about recruiting and how are you gonna change your approach to building the company, you've been kind of holed up in LA. This is your kind of hideout. Yeah, totally. But I imagine, do you push back into SF, go back

of hideout. Yeah, totally. But I imagine, do you push back into SF, go back to being the king? Well, here, so first, let's just be clear, on December 18th, I moved to Texas. Sure, great. I don't know what's so specific about December 18th, but let's just say it's prior to January. Yeah. So I'm a

primary resident of Texas, but the action for a lot of this Atoms type technology I'm talking about. Of course, like the Bay is a real thing. My head

of the advanced technology group at Uber is running my robotics division at Atoms. It's called Lab 37. That's Anthony? In Pittsburgh. No, no, that's Eric Meyhoffer. Okay, Eric

Meyhoffer. So that's robotics on the food side. Yeah, Anthony Evendosky was running Pronto. I was the largest investor in Pronto, and then we just were basically right in the final... like we're checking off the list, maybe closing today or tomorrow on that deal. Amazing. Let's talk about that deal. Yeah. Give us, give us,

yeah, give us like, what's the kind of background on, on Pronto and then how it fits into the, to the empire. Well, look, I, I, I sort of broke out how mining fits. Yeah. Right. So we got that. Look, I bet I'm the largest investor in Pronto. Um, and it's super inspiring work. Like, like go to a mine, right? check out

work. Like, like go to a mine, right? check out

how these things work and let your mind imagine what that might look like when you bring automation to it and how much more productive it is and what that means for industry when all minds are producing more. Where

does that go? And in some ways you could say low hanging fruit on the autonomy problem because yes, there are different problems off road, but they ain't, like they're way more controlled than what's going on on road. Okay. But then you get into the physical action like cars on the road, the Waymo's on the road,

you know, they're moving, but they're not acting on atoms, right? So when you think about excavation and you think about crush, like when you get the material and then you move it, then you are basically crushing the material and then you process it.

You think about all of the automation through that stack. It's, fantastic. And it's

like, it's hard, right? Like I, somebody asked me, like, we have a bunch of roboticists that make some of our food machines. And somebody came like, Hey, like, is AI going to help us design food machines? We're like, dude, let me show you like this thing has like an insane number of parts. And

let me show you just the design of a single part. Yeah. Like,

That AI can't even do frickin' math. We're not there yet. Now, could it get there? Yeah. But then you're really in AGI. If you look at how much harder

there? Yeah. But then you're really in AGI. If you look at how much harder it is, the physical world, how much harder it is, AI in the physical world versus in the digital world, and I'm not demeaning it in any way, I'm just saying it's like, maybe let's call it a different problem set. Yeah, we're just far away from one shotting. There's just way less training data. Yeah. It's like one shotting

on software, one shotting on designing a machine or a robot, whew, we're just not there yet. But that makes it more fun. That's the point is like, do the

there yet. But that makes it more fun. That's the point is like, do the hard things. If you are in the Atoms world, you have decided, I like hard

hard things. If you are in the Atoms world, you have decided, I like hard things, I like pain more than anybody else. This is kind of what you gotta be about. Chewing a glass. I love it. So I can see how

be about. Chewing a glass. I love it. So I can see how AVs at Atoms fit into mining, what other, And just heavy industry broadly, what other kind of categories of AVs are exciting? How do you see the space evolving? Yeah, look, anything, I mean, we did a mission is

wheelbase for robots. Yeah. So then you're just like, okay, what moves? Yeah. Right. And

then you go, okay, where you have to find the businesses that make sense, of course. So We're like, okay, mining is a no-brainer. And how do you think about

course. So We're like, okay, mining is a no-brainer. And how do you think about sizing for a wheelbase for robots that can scale up and down like crazy? Yeah,

like I tell my team, like, dude, there's like a ton of silver metals here.

And there's actually a few other gold metals just in the category. So let's just go with delivery robots, like food delivery, which, of course, is near and dear to my heart. You make a lot of food. Yeah. your $15

my heart. You make a lot of food. Yeah. your $15

bowl became 30 bucks. Yeah. Okay. And this is like, I would put it up there as like one of the number one annoyances of the average American, regardless of where they are in society. Food inflation? It's like

food is just the cost of food delivery. Everybody wants food fast, cheap, hot, et cetera. Yeah. And There's all this data that just came out this week that

et cetera. Yeah. And There's all this data that just came out this week that just shows like it doesn't matter even how much money you're making, you're spending a lot on this category. Isn't it interesting, right? Remember I talked about the plumbers. Yeah.

But like you could take whole categories, become the long pole in the tent. Food,

boring. To a lot of people, boring is that for me, interesting, let's go. Let's go. Look, I did taxis. I did taxis. Yeah.

let's go. Let's go. Look, I did taxis. I did taxis. Yeah.

when they're like, people are looking at me funny. It was a weird idea. Okay.

They're looking at me super funny. So Jason Kalkanis, the most famous investor in Uber of all time. More famous than you. And so whenever I meet with them, I'm like, dude, I'm so honored to be meeting one of our early investors, but he, there was like a angel group that I pitched. Yeah. There were like 30, 40 people in the room. I think it was like three or four that invested. It's

crazy. Okay. The 10 grand check became like a hundred million bucks. It was crazy.

But the boring places are the places. Yeah. You know,

less competitive, but also just weird and hard. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. The

graveyard is stacked of tech guys that thought they could crack food, which is why which is again, like, go back to where you can go you can go compete in this category, but you have to actually be insane. And

you have to have Yeah. And then you have to attack it all. Yeah. And

in my so my head of the robotics division, we're like, Yeah, let's do this.

The band back together. Let's go right. This is Eric, my offer. And, and

He's like, okay, we can make a food robot. I'm like, I got one. There's

one requirement though. I got one hanging chatter, one string attached. He's like, what? I'm

like, you're going to have to build a restaurant that the robot serves. So

my roboticist team in Pittsburgh made a restaurant that is the restaurant that our first robot went into. Because we had to make sure that we understood how a restaurant worked. We had to make sure that this wasn't just a machine that made food, but a machine that makes food in the ecosystem of machines called a restaurant. And people don't understand, but a restaurant is a

manufacturing facility. In fact, if you look at like the labor statistics, etc.,

manufacturing facility. In fact, if you look at like the labor statistics, etc., restaurants fits under manufacturing for obvious reasons. It just hasn't changed in 50 years. Yeah,

yeah. Anyways, back to a little... Sorry, I'm all over the place. No, I love it. I love it. Firing on all cylinders. Yeah. But so, again, do you

it. I love it. Firing on all cylinders. Yeah. But so, again, do you want to move people with AVs? Do you care more about commercial? Look,

the industrial thing is sort of like probably our main jam, but the bottom line is once you crack... once you crack movement in the physical world, there's lots of people who want access to that. And in fact, you need partners because you're gonna be putting billions of dollars to work to make

it happen. So there's gonna be lots of partners across different categories that are gonna

it happen. So there's gonna be lots of partners across different categories that are gonna probably want some of that. And I have no issues with that. We're not like a, this is ours and this thing. It's more like, hey, there may be ways to work with others. We're happy to do it. Yeah, we've got to pick our spots, but you get the idea. What about manufacturing broadly? You're doing it in food.

Are there other categories that are interesting? Are you happy to be kind of the transport rails? Look, I think once you are in physical AI, you should basically understand

transport rails? Look, I think once you are in physical AI, you should basically understand that manufacturing is part of your tech stack. It just

is. And by the way, energy is part of your tech stack. land development, real estate is part of your tech stack. That's just what it's gonna be. People don't

think about it like that, but it's true. Of course, Tesla just crushes. If you look at this list of things, you're just like, they got

just crushes. If you look at this list of things, you're just like, they got it all. So good. But there's just so much to do. You know

it all. So good. But there's just so much to do. You know

what I mean? We can see all the things Tesla's doing. That's cool. I'm like,

There's a million other things. I can still help you mine. Yeah. I can still get some food to some peeps. You know what I mean? So you get the idea. Is that really when you're pitching investors around Adams in this new vision,

idea. Is that really when you're pitching investors around Adams in this new vision, is it basically like there's a lot of jobs to do in the world. We're

going to do it with physical AI. And you're basically betting on applying my general ethos to all these categories over time? No, you've got to be able to pick your spots. If you are too broad. People are like, dude, what's wrong with you?

your spots. If you are too broad. People are like, dude, what's wrong with you?

Now, you know, I think every entrepreneur always gets that. Like, you know, I, I, I joke around like in the nineties, I can do it. I'm an old guy.

What are you going to do? In the nineties, it's like, dude, Microsoft's going to kill you. Like, why do you think then in the two thousands, it was like,

kill you. Like, why do you think then in the two thousands, it was like, why isn't Google going to do this in the 2010s? It's like, dude, that looks like Uber's thing. And the, you know, now it's like, if you're talking about physical AI, it's like, that's Tesla. They are the incumbent, they are, and not just the incumbent, they're also just doing great, awesome stuff. But find your spot. Know yourself,

know what you're good at, be self-aware, and find the thing that is your business soulmate, for sure. But also know that you're in an ecosystem and you need to find your spot. What was your experience like in dot-com and the financial crisis broadly in 2008? Okay, so basically

I sold my peer to peer CDN, Akamai meets BitTorrent in 2007 to Akamai.

So I was earning out when that happened and I was, I just started, I think I didn't last very long in that earn out. So I was the CXO, I was like an advisor and a CXO. Little known fact, I was blogging. I was like a tech influencer blogger. There's a blog still out there

blogging. I was like a tech influencer blogger. There's a blog still out there called Swooshing. Crazy, amazing, ridiculous content.

called Swooshing. Crazy, amazing, ridiculous content.

I was in the click economy, guys. I was in it. So I was an advisor in CXO for like five different companies at a time. And so I'd help them on their deals or I would be their CTO or I would... you

know, help them sell or product or whatever, but I could always just put the phone down and forget. So somewhat insulated from like the mortgage crash. Yeah, I mean, my thing was, I was trying to figure out, I was getting a bunch of my friends together and saying, okay, do you have a mortgage with Bank of America?

I do too. Let's pool our thing. I'm going to go to Bank of America and say, I will buy these mortgages off for 40 cents on the dollar. Cause

you're selling them on the market for 10 cents. Interesting. Could be fun. And then

they're like, Get out of here. You're not a hedge fund. That's wild. What about .com? You're talking about the 90s? Yeah, the 90s,

hedge fund. That's wild. What about .com? You're talking about the 90s? Yeah, the 90s, like late 90s. I mean, at that point, you're sort of starting your career, right?

Yeah. But it's an interesting place to start a career in tech. Like a lot of people watched that and said, that's insane. So look, we did peer-to-peer file sharing at a company called Scour. Yeah. Okay, so some people did Napster, some went to like, You know, all the ones that came after BitTorrent all the way to like, what was the one that Zenstrom did? Kazaa or some of these others, right?

We were the OG file sharing. Michael Ovitz was on the board. Ron Burkle was on the board. LA, okay? Doing tech in LA was like being a finance guy in Fresno. They're like, don't know what the hell is going on. They're like, who are you? And...

you're a little bit sheltered from it in LA. Every time you went to the Silicon Valley, it was like wild and crazy. And like every bar was like packed, like after hours, like happy hour thing, like things were bubbling. And the crazy part is not just what happened during the run up, it was post. I was

raising money on this peer to peer CDN that I didn't have, I didn't pay myself a salary for four years. I was raising money in late 2001 for a networking software company. Are you freaking kidding me? And so I remember going to one of these, going to a bar to meet up with a VC. And this is

like 2002 and it's empty. Like this thing that would be mega packed just two years earlier. I mean, we're talking Dust Bowl tumbleweeds, empty.

And this VC, I wish I remember who it was, cause it'd be amazing. I

was like, yeah, Travis, dude, I think it's all done. It's over. It's over. He

told you it's over. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, all the software that could be invented has been invented. Wow. We're done. And he meant it.

He meant it. He meant it. He's like, it's been real, dude. Let's have a whiskey. Let's go. We're done. That's incredible. How have you processed the last two

whiskey. Let's go. We're done. That's incredible. How have you processed the last two years when people are able to raise an amount of money that took you four different rooms in this entire process and they can just raise it literally without a deck often, they can just pull it together. Look, it's all good.

When you build a company the way I built it, which is like my current one, where you're literally under the radar, it means that you are powered by, you have an internal fulfillment. You're not like, caring what others think, you get internally fulfilled with building. And I don't look at somebody and go,

oh, dude, I had it so much harder uphill both ways to school, whatever. I

don't think like that. It's more about the excellence of the process.

So I'm like, well, how do you raise money? And they're like, oh yeah, I just throw a deck to the guy. I'm like, okay, well then that's not a thing. What is a thing is going all the way until it hurts. If you're

thing. What is a thing is going all the way until it hurts. If you're

doing something and it's easy, it's not valuable. And I'll explain, like, let's just think of like a marathoner. World-class marathoner on mile 21.

Is that dude smiling? No, he's not smiling. By the way, if he is smiling, you know what's about to happen? about to get his ass whooped okay because why because somebody else who's down for the pain will go harder and further and pass him and so if you're getting money easy i'm like why didn't you go harder you could have done it better and more now you don't do things hard just

cause maybe he's like it just doesn't matter dude like i gotta go do something else that's hard but the key is like if money matters which i think we would say it does especially in certain categories, you need to be the best in the world at it. And it's not enough to say it was easy. If anybody

comes to me and says a strategic thing was easy, I'm like, you messed up.

You could have been way better and gone way further, more competitive advantage, more differentiation, get it together. Give me the update. I feel like Tony Robbins right now.

I love it. I love it. No, I think people need to hear this. They

do. They do. And yeah, the challenge is like when if raising money is super easy and then you actually start building and you're like, whoa, actually money makes this possible, but it doesn't make the work easy. Yeah. And it is funny that some of the greatest fundraisers, the critique is always like, oh, well, they are raising too much money. You look at Elon, Sam, all these crazy deals and people are like,

much money. You look at Elon, Sam, all these crazy deals and people are like, well, like, okay, well, it's nice that you're good, but like, are you too good?

And it's something like this. Look, here's the thing. You know, back in the day, 2010's reference, like there was a problem with getting MASA money. Yeah. There was a problem with that. Yeah. Because it was easy money. Sure. And it was too loose.

Yeah. And so people would get loose with the culture of the investor that they were getting the money from. And so

you had to be careful. So if somebody got masa money, I'd be like, dude, you gotta, you gotta grind. It was, it was maybe a little too easy and you still, still to this day. So, so, um, there's nothing wrong with money as a, as a sort of a competitive advantage or a strategic advantage.

weapon. It's okay. Like that's part of business. It's necessary, but treat it with respect.

Last question about Texas for the Californians. They're thinking about making a trip out there, Austin, Dallas, Houston. What do you recommend? Well, look, I'm Austin. Now I own a place in Austin. I've owned it for five years. I'm a avid, I would say almost professional water skier. Nice. Slalom skiing. No way. I'll send a video put up. Send a video put up. That's amazing. It's sick. Don't even get

me started. So I've owned a place there for five years,

me started. So I've owned a place there for five years, right on the lake, Lake Austin, 20 minutes from the city. There you go. Lake

life, hell yeah, go for it. I get a little bit FOMO on these people going to Florida. I'm like, dude. Why so much Florida action? Come on, homies.

I know, it's been a bloodbath for every single guy going to Florida.

Yeah, every weekend this year I've had this year is in Texas. You ever take calls while you're water skiing, like Air Pods? Dude, I should. I love it. Don't

get me excited. I went to Saronic, which does the boats, the autonomous boats. Yeah,

yeah. And I'm like... Build me a water skiing driver. Water skiing boat. Ooh, okay.

I just want to water ski. That's great. And like... You're skiing behind a Saronic boat is so funny. Autonomous water skiing. Pretty viral.

Who should come... You're poking your head up. Who should come work for you? 60

seconds. Who do you want? Not any individual, like one individual person. I have a message for this one guy who didn't take my offer. Look, I think the thing is, is like, we're just getting the best. This is so cliche and like, whatever, banal, but look, we are in the physical AI

space. So it's a mix of sort of, let's call it sensors, compute,

space. So it's a mix of sort of, let's call it sensors, compute, the software that sits on top of those things.

I mean, it's just gonna be great engineers. And then you go through what I would call the physical AI stack and you would, you know, but- It's a long project. It's someone who wants a career. Infrastructure software, guys, because you've got to have

project. It's someone who wants a career. Infrastructure software, guys, because you've got to have epic AI on the back end and the way to use that sort of has to be epic. You have to have physical AI model people who are sort of translating foundational models into the physical world. And there's some core research and some just

like, I know all the white papers and we're building and going end to end or some hybrid version of that. You have just normal software, because you've got applications that sit on top that then, of course, customers see in some fashion or another. Actuation and manipulation on the mechanical and sort of robotic side of

another. Actuation and manipulation on the mechanical and sort of robotic side of things. And mechanical engineers that build machines. Wow. And

things. And mechanical engineers that build machines. Wow. And

then, of course, remember, I've got construction, real estate. I could go on. It's lots

of cool stuff. Go to the website. There's lots of stuff there. Go to the website, folks. Adams.co. Adams.co. And by the way, Adams.co slash vision, I just threw down.

website, folks. Adams.co. Adams.co. And by the way, Adams.co slash vision, I just threw down.

OK. I know. I read it. That's amazing. Check it out. Well, thank you. It's

amazing. You're taking the time to come chat with us. Yeah, yeah. This was awesome.