Godmother of AI: In 10 Years There Will Be Only 2 Kinds of Workers

This is why I think a lot of people are scared. I thought university was like a

scared. I thought university was like a path to career. I think the word entrepreneur is very much a synonym to agency. Agency is the key in the face of

agency. Agency is the key in the face of a technology that is so cognitively advanced. Get familiar with that

advanced. Get familiar with that technology.

Fe Lee built the data that made modern AI possible. Now she's raised $1 billion

AI possible. Now she's raised $1 billion to build what comes next. And she's

teaching all of this in her new master class, AI's future and yours. David

Roger turned Masterclass into a $2.75 billion company teaching people from the world's best today. They're both

watching the same shift and they have a lot to say about it. It's a gap that's widening and increasing. If somebody's

using AI, they're able to get tremendously more done that they never have before. We aren't going to have to

have before. We aren't going to have to work anymore.

Universal basic.

Yeah. We're just going to get paid to to chill.

Time of change could be a time of loss.

What does it look like? What should

people be preparing for?

Loss of old habits, loss of sense of steadiness. But that's also a time of

steadiness. But that's also a time of opportunity. It's a opportunity for

opportunity. It's a opportunity for you are running companies these days, multiple. What are you seeing? What are

multiple. What are you seeing? What are

the biggest shifts happening?

My world is very much AI. So I think the I get to experience really the the the the cutting edge of where the technology

is pushing. Uh it's just I cannot tell

is pushing. Uh it's just I cannot tell you how exciting this moment is. the

technologists, the entrepreneurs and in including product people uh business people before people are all recognizing

this uh just really see change of how uh AI can now be used to to rethink business to rethink applications and you

know it just feels I've been in Silicon Valley for 17 years uh the energy is just I've never seen this before even 10 years ago So I did not feel that

level of excitement.

That's that's amazing. And I feel like everyone's working more. David, would

you agree with that? What's happening in your company?

It's a gap that's widening and increasing. If somebody's using AI,

increasing. If somebody's using AI, they're able to get tremendously more done and they feel a sense of agency that they never have before. if they're

still nervous to or haven't been trained to you are seeing that that gap increase. One of the the most

increase. One of the the most interesting things I think that you talk about is that it seems like the world is split between all this is godlike and

going to have a save the world and the other half of people are like this is the this is the devil and going to destroy everything.

Very polarized society.

Very polarized. And I think one of the things that you talk about and have shown is that that is not a healthy approach or maybe is isn't the best designed approach and that if you

actually you should share this with me but but but if you actually try to figure out what are the best aspects of it and how do I use it to actually help people we might be able to get the best

of both worlds. You asked early about tools. Yeah. And I think I was thinking

tools. Yeah. And I think I was thinking about it. If you asked me like a couple

about it. If you asked me like a couple months ago, I would have listed you know claude and chat GBT and all the tools. I

have now found that most of the apps I use I built and I built them with cloud code or with codec and and I think this first of all that's

like amazing to me because now as like if I was if like my CEO stack is all apps that I've built.

It's called dividify, right? I've read

something like you build your own I created a David Fi David F and I gave to my team which is like if you're trying to write something in my own voice like here are a bunch of emails that I wrote and things I said so

you can do it but even my to my productivity apps my to-do list app I built and um and it is I have it

that if it's on the list for over two over a day and a half it can't stay on the list. So, it forces me to either

the list. So, it forces me to either decide that I'm going to do it now, I'm going to dump it because it's actually not an important thing, or I'm going to pass it off to a person on my team. And

this just allows you to create all these apps for the way that you think and work to. And so, back to our agency point,

to. And so, back to our agency point, like you're able to create the workflows and tools, anything that you now want.

So now it's about what's the motivation to do it, what's the skills to go do it.

But the cost of do of making an app drop from you know months to like a weekend.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a very good point.

If an employee comes to you and says like I really want to start using AI, what would you tell them like where do they start? What what what is the task?

they start? What what what is the task?

Because I've heard some of the some entrepreneurs ask their employees to just vibe code their dashboard for example. Do you have like a go-to thing?

example. Do you have like a go-to thing?

I don't like vibe coding a dashboard because when somebody vi vibe codes a dashboard, it's only in the front end of the dashboard. It's never tied back to

the dashboard. It's never tied back to the actual inputs. So like it's great for like an hour, but then it like stops working because they haven't tied it back to everything most of the time. um

when they want to learn AI, I have found if they're asking that if they're asking that question, they are hesitant to try it on their own.

There's something that's holding them back.

And so what I do in those cases is like and like sometimes I I I worry is this like a waste of my time, but I I've learned it's not. I will sit down with them or in groups of two or three and I

will show them a basic task like deep like on research and like I'll walk them through it like step by step and in some ways I feel like that's a

waste of my time cuz I'm like you could watch a YouTube video on this that's way more effective than I am. But I found is there's something about me doing it with them that then there's something that

like unlocks that they then go sore on their own. So I don't know if it's

their own. So I don't know if it's somebody walking over if they feel forced to do it because I'm the CEO and I'm making them do it or that like but then the act of walking them through it then they are unlocked to go do it and

they do lots more things. Yeah, I thank you David for for really bringing the the complexity of reality. That is

something that I observe and frankly I'm concerned because I think the public discourse of AI is so polarized. We have

to look at the upside, we have to look at the downside. But the public discourse right now is not like that.

It's either total utopia. It's going to, you know, uh save the world.

We aren't going to have to work anymore.

Yeah. we have to get paid to to chill or you know this this thing about F AI it it's so bad it's going to just

displace all jobs it's going to um take away all human agency and these two extreme is very dangerous I genuinely

believe it's a technology that means it's a tool it's a very powerful tool but it's a tool that humans can wield

to help make things better. But we also have to be very very vigilant about how to use the tool. We teach kids how to

use tools from fire to to knives to um you know the internet. Now we have to learn that as a species as a society.

And the most important discourse is missing. And that's the discourse of the

missing. And that's the discourse of the nuanced middle is what this tool is. How can we use it

for good? How should we avoid the

for good? How should we avoid the pitfalls? And how do we go forward as a

pitfalls? And how do we go forward as a civilization with this civilizational tool?

The AI agents you're building right now, they don't understand each other. Your

sales agent closes a deal and learns something about the customer. Your

support agent picks up the same customer an hour later and starts with zero context. That knowledge just vanishes

context. That knowledge just vanishes every single time. Outshift by Cisco published a white paper this year called scaling out super intelligence. Their

argument the biggest bottleneck in AI right now isn't bigger models or smarter agents. It's making them work together

agents. It's making them work together better. They're calling the solution the

better. They're calling the solution the internet of cognition. Shared intent,

shared context, shared reasoning across all your agents at once. There is a live demo at outshift.com. Five use cases.

You can watch the agents reason together in real time. If you're building anything with agents, read the paper and try the demo because they are working on this future right now. Links are in the

description. And then it's a

description. And then it's a revolutionary tool. I feel like it's the

revolutionary tool. I feel like it's the it's the first tool that is so industrial revolution automated our physical labor right here we're kind of automating our intelligence and this is

why I think a lot of people are scared because they're like oh I thought university guar not guarantees but it's like a path to career now if the cost of intelligence goes to zero I don't know

like what's going to happen what do you think one things I learned from from from you was that right now when we talk about

AI, it is language- based. That, to use your phrase, is like lossy. It It is You aren't going to learn how to drive a car

with words. You aren't going to learn

with words. You aren't going to learn how to shoot a basketball with words.

And so, I think we're still in a like V1 of AI. And I think the sphere is a

of AI. And I think the sphere is a little overhyped because AI it's doesn't have a set of its own values. It's our

val it's our values and so I think that means an opportunity for us to design and shape it. Do you want to share your thing? I thought it was really neat the

thing? I thought it was really neat the thing you did with the doctors and they're washing their hands.

Uh yeah. So I I agree with David. First

of all, industrial revolution did not automate labor. It uh it made labor more

automate labor. It uh it made labor more efficient. It scaled up labor. It did um

efficient. It scaled up labor. It did um it has shift of the labor market but it did not automate labor and also we

cannot imply labor is not intelligent.

That is really really a wrong premise.

you know, physical labor, cognitive labor, emotional labor, human activity is deeply intertwined with human

intelligence, which is still very much a an an unsolved mystery in in nature. We

don't know the depth and nuance of uh human intelligence. So, uh, claiming I

human intelligence. So, uh, claiming I know you're not claiming, but anyone out there claiming that, uh, intelligence, the cost of intelligence goes to zero,

it's just an irresponsible claim because human intelligence is so deep. As David

said, in addition to uh the more familiar language intelligence, we also have uh uh perceptual intelligence, spatial intelligence, physical

intelligence, emotional intelligence. uh

we don't have a grasp on creativity where that comes from. Everybody's

creativity comes from different parts of their not only their brain but their holistic uh uh life. So I think we need

to be very careful of these reductive claims. I do agree that language intelligence the LLMs the derivatives of

LLM are incredibly powerful. you know,

they're helping business intelligence, they're helping uh software engineering, they're helping deductive logical

reasoning and even deeper tasks. The uh

we're we're not seeing a gentic use of language and software intelligence. All

this is in important, but it is nuanced.

It is uh it's complex. It's a lot of it can be powerfully collaborative with human intelligence, but I would not use

words like automating human intelligence or intelligence goes to zero. I am very concerned about that kind of rhetoric.

The exact rhetoric that's causing people to be so anti-AI cuz what they see, they see headlines of mass layoffs and like we don't need you anymore, that type of stuff. and this is what's causing this

stuff. and this is what's causing this negativity.

But the answer isn't in those cases to say I'm going to avoid using AI or that I'm not going to use it. I think the answer is you grab the tool and then you figure out how I'm going to design it

better or how I'm going to improve I'm going to I'm going to improve the tool or some of your work in hospitals if you take if you take a job a job is actually like a whole set of tasks. And I think

one of your arguments is there's some tasks that you do in your job that you probably don't like. Your example I remember was a nurse has to chart all their notes.

Doctors and and doctors I have never met a nurse that's like you know the job the part of my job I love the most charting is charting.

Yes.

Like that is not why they got into the professional field. So I think the

professional field. So I think the avoidance is the wrong way but I also think I agree with you. I think it will if we look at any technological

shift it's always ended up in net more jobs the issue is just who gets those who is it that actually gets those jobs but the people who don't get those jobs

are the people who do not adapt to it right and if you don't adapt the outcomes are very bad so if you look at the past with the advent of the computer

of the spreadsheet what happens if you don't adapt is you lose your job, your lifetime income drops by over a fifth

and your mortality rate in the first year doubles. Like it actually hurts

year doubles. Like it actually hurts your health.

That's crazy stats.

It's And so the answer isn't to go into a hole, it's to push yourself to explore and improve the tools.

Yeah, I I totally agree with David. I

think some of the words we talked about deserve to be highlighted. Uh you use the word agency. We talk about collaboration and empowerment. I think

that that's it. That's the core meaning of any technology including a so-called godlike technology like AI is it it

should be human- centered. And what does it mean? Human center is just a phrase

it mean? Human center is just a phrase in the to me the simplest but the most profound um meaning of human centerness is really

empowerment to humanity to to including individuals communities and society and that is the meaning of this

technology which brings up this point that David said is that it's a time of change time of change could be a time of loss,

loss of old habits, loss of comfort that we were familiar with for the past decades, uh loss of

sense of steadiness, but that's also a time of opportunity.

It's an opportunity for what's coming next. It's an opportunity for what we

next. It's an opportunity for what we can make better. And how do you cross that boundary between the time of

confusion and loss to time of uh uh of opportunity as an individual? It is

really a responsibility of each one of us to learn, embrace, upskill, be intellectually open about this

opportunity. And that goes to the core

opportunity. And that goes to the core of every human journey. Whether you are a K12 student or you're already a

professional, we have to embrace this together. Yeah. And but also to your

together. Yeah. And but also to your point of change, it's happening so fast, faster than ever. Uh can you tell me like if we take AI today, what type of

tasks it can do already, what is still very human and what's going to happen in a year? So how fast is it moving?

a year? So how fast is it moving?

I mean I think in education it's having a tremendous impact. The biggest

obstacle I I'll share. So, we know from the last 60 years that the best way for somebody to learn is one- on-one instruction.

Mhm.

So, the question has to be asked, why do we sit in in classrooms of 20 people of 300 people? It's simply cost. It is too

300 people? It's simply cost. It is too expensive to provide a doctorly to every person in the world. Even though that

would be amazing. and I would um and so with AI though from the work that's been done in the last couple

years we now know that AI can provide that personal level of instruction that is almost as good as that it is

so much better than learning in a classroom than reading just a book on it. So then the question and now you're

it. So then the question and now you're able to provide that same education. The

one where you sat in a in an elementary school classroom for $12,000 a year.

You're now or or a school for $80,000 a year. Once you're, you know, undergrad,

year. Once you're, you know, undergrad, you're able to provide that same education for about $100.

Mhm.

So the question has to be asked, when are we going to see that that change in our own education? I think the biggest obstacle is not the tech. The biggest

obstacle is the institutions that are afraid of the afraid of that change. But I think what's going to

change. But I think what's going to happen, we know that if you use AI to learn, you're able to learn the same things in 60% less time.

So if school says I'm going to ban AI, I'm going to ban my kids from using AI and another school allows them to use AI in a structured way. Those kids that use

AI are going to be far ahead of the kids that don't. Now that's not a replacement

that don't. Now that's not a replacement for everything. You still want the

for everything. You still want the in-person interaction, all those social bonds, but I think you're going to start to see a divergence

in kids where one group that is open AI is learning at a much faster rate than everyone else. And I think that's bad.

everyone else. And I think that's bad.

And so I think it's not a tech issue, but I think what's going to happen is those schools that do not adapt in 10 years, they're going to be d they aren't going to exist cuz they're going to be

so far behind. And also their world will be changing so fast because of AI. Like

what David said, uh part of it they should be changing. I also adamantly believe every school, every classroom should embrace AI. Every student should

be embracing AI. But I also believe that we have a collective responsibility to include them especially the teachers and and educator educational admin

administrators in this discourse of AI and and show them what is a viable path that um

maintains the goal of education. The

goal of education is not a tool. The

goal of education is not closed book or open book exams. The goal of education is not standardized test scores. The

goal of education is is uh building humans and so that every individual is a meaningful contributor of their community and society and lead to a

meaningful life. And this AI should not

meaningful life. And this AI should not be taking any any of these fundamentals away. But AI should help to achieve this

away. But AI should help to achieve this goal much better, much more effectively.

And uh and this polarized a extremely simplified binary conversation about AI is for cheating or not. Uh closed book,

take away AI.

It is just not where we should be. We

should be looking at how we empower teachers, how we empower students, how we restructure our classrooms, how we

rethink about examinations, how we rethink about standardized test, how we rethink about college administ uh admissions, how we rethink about uh

resource distribution. There is a

resource distribution. There is a technology that's lowering cost and barriers. So how we can resource our

barriers. So how we can resource our inner cities, our rural areas, uh, you know, globally, global south, these are

really important, more important topics of AI and education. Um, that we're we're missing that conversation.

You know what I think will help this conversation because when I'm thinking about my kids education, I want to imagine a workplace where they going to be. Uh so when I was growing up the

be. Uh so when I was growing up the workplace is big company you're doing this and so in order to get there you need to study this this and that.

Can you paint me a picture of a workplace or a company in 10 years? What

does it look like? What should be people be preparing for? Agency. I think AI will give people more agency. So um a

lot of the a lot of the future of work I think will rely on people who knows who know how to use this tools uh in very

effective way. So let me give you a

effective way. So let me give you a concrete example. We one of the very

concrete example. We one of the very coveted jobs in Silicon Valley in the past 20 years is product manager. You

know there's a lot of conversations of the shifting nature of product management job. It used to be um 10

management job. It used to be um 10 years ago fairly standard product managers job is more uh the thread

between uh users markets and engineers.

They're more like uh conductors. They

don't have to code. They fairly often they were not software engineers. So if

they want a prototype they go to a designer. They go to a software

designer. They go to a software engineer, they get a prototype and then they they send the prototype to users and uh and and they listen to the users

and uh and uh uh synthesize the feedback and that life cycle of uh product management might take typically months

you know in in a company. Today if you look at the job of product manager actually a lot of companies are experimenting with different things but there are some fundamental changes a lot

of product managers just now codes themselves they don't have to wait uh to prototype from a team of people they can use AI to

help to to design something very simple and and and vibe code so that part shortens the life cycle doesn't mean we we we should get rid of designers or

software engineer but it just saves time and so that software engineer and designers can do much more sophisticated work also user side things are shifting

AI can actually simulate user behaviors and there are much um um much more efficient ways to reach to the users to

to close the loop with users so I'm looking at these young product managers And when I uh look to hire them, I look

for those who are riding the the wave of changes. I don't look for those product

changes. I don't look for those product uh managers who are still talking about the textbook uh workflow of even five

years ago. So what I think the future of

years ago. So what I think the future of companies there's a lot to imagine and depending on the company from healthcare

to to um um education to whatever industry but I think our workforce will be much more empowered or can be

much more empowered by powerful tools like AI. So that personal agency,

like AI. So that personal agency, creativity and also the boundaries of what people a

a person can do and cannot do is just a lot more blurred and lowered lowered. So

to me um that's going to just fundamentally shift the structure of corporate America and and um every student today should try to

imagine who they want to be in that new structure.

Most people use Claude like a search engine. They type in a question, they

engine. They type in a question, they get an answer, most times they're not really satisfied with it and they close the tab. I did the same thing for months

the tab. I did the same thing for months and I was looking at people who were saying AI is changing their life and I'm like then I spent one afternoon setting it up properly, uploaded a few files about how I think and how I work and it

completely changed. I wrote the whole

completely changed. I wrote the whole process up step by step. You get it when you subscribe to my newsletter, Future Proof. It's free. The link is in the

Proof. It's free. The link is in the description. It feels like you're

description. It feels like you're describing entrepreneurs within workspace or you're like either you're an entrepreneur or you're an entrepreneur within organization which means you're handling multiple things and you're responsible for multiple

things. I mean my hypothesis on this you

things. I mean my hypothesis on this you will get a barbell effect and this is what we are seeing at masterclass where you have one group that are becoming the

specialists and it used to be like I remember in school like I was told to pick one area and just go deep in that and that's how I build a long-term career. I think

that's eroding except if you're in the top one if you're like the actual best.

What I mean by this is if I'm a copywriter, if I'm an okay one, anybody that now uses an LLM can do a decent job at that,

but if you're the best in the world at it or if you're in the top 1%, I can't beat you at it.

And so we're seeing a the rise of people are specialists that are very good at their thing. And I think that extends to

their thing. And I think that extends to tons of crafts. And then the other role we're seeing is this high agency generalist

who's able to do lots of different things well and has good on has really good skills on the judgment side on the agency side and those people when you see them interact is really neat because

they then interact with somebody who's in the top 1% at their craft and they're like whoa I couldn't do that right and I so I my guess is that it's a

bifurcation of those specialists and the people that can do lots of things Well, that's interesting. And I I agree with

that's interesting. And I I agree with you. I think both, whether you're on the

you. I think both, whether you're on the specialist side or generalist side, you both have agency.

Yes, that's and you should both be able to use tools in ways that's uniquely creative and deep, right? I'm already seeing this,

deep, right? I'm already seeing this, right? Um, for example, designers, you

right? Um, for example, designers, you know, they they bring so much human creativity, but I see some of them use all kinds of AI tools in ways I cannot

personally imagine. So, I know that's

personally imagine. So, I know that's where their craftsmanship comes. And

also the word entrepreneurial um, in Silicon Valley, that's almost like I'm going to do a Delaware incorporated startup and that's the label entrepreneur. And I disagree. I

label entrepreneur. And I disagree. I

think the word word entrepreneurial is very much a synonym to agency.

Yeah.

You know, it's it doesn't matter. You

can be a doctor, special specialty doctor. You can be a K12 teacher. Uh but

doctor. You can be a K12 teacher. Uh but

agency is the key and uh in the face of a technology that is so cognitively

advanced. uh have h be brave, have your

advanced. uh have h be brave, have your human agency and command that technology. Use that technology, get

technology. Use that technology, get familiar with that technology. Don't be

afraid. Don't shy away from it because that's where the the the wheels of history is turning towards the future.

And I think everybody, it doesn't have to be a Silicon Valley founder, everybody can be entrepreneurial for their craftsmanship or whatever they want to do. You mentioned so many tools

like use tools, use tools. Can you give me example of some of the tools that have been transformational to your job?

Obviously all kinds of um from chat GPT to Gemini to cloud I use it in many different ways. They have so many

different ways. They have so many features from helping me to um study some deep topics or to have a conversation. Uh here's a here's a fun

conversation. Uh here's a here's a fun example. I'm in charge of laundry in my

example. I'm in charge of laundry in my household. So every weekend I have to do

household. So every weekend I have to do loads and loads of laundry and uh it used to be my audio book time but

sometimes um sometimes I get bored just listening to audiobook and and just about a few month ago I realized I can have a conversation of a deep topic with

AI as I was just folding laundry and that has been so much fun. Somehow it's

more even more motivating for me to go fold laundry because I can have me time with with AI to learn anything I want and uh um of of course software

engineering has been completely transformed and also you know on the art and design side um I mean world labs we

are creating um models to help our creators and to imagine 3D worlds and all that. So we also see change in the

all that. So we also see change in the creative world. Uh once again that's

creative world. Uh once again that's also a very contentious area because some companies have positioned AI

creative tools as if it's a replacement and I just deeply deeply protest that positioning. I I think that human

positioning. I I think that human creativity even just on the visual side, human creativity is so vast, but even

just on the visual design side is profoundly intertwined with our emotional intelligence with the story we

bring with the values we bring uh each uh creators bring. I just think AI is such a powerful tool to help them solicit

their um you know express their creativity instead of to replace it.

Totally.

Do you feel AI can never be very smart until it figures out spatial intelligence?

Yeah. So this is the work I'm doing now in world labs. So what is spatial intelligence? Special intelligence is a

intelligence? Special intelligence is a a term that encompasses multiple abilities today that humans uh display

in a in a environment like this one 3D environment. If we look at movement, we

environment. If we look at movement, we call it 4D environment. We can

understand what's going on. I see

people, I see equipments, I see this beautiful home. This is the

beautiful home. This is the understanding part of spatial intelligence. We can reason. If I want

intelligence. We can reason. If I want to go and um you know um go grab a a bottle of water in the fridge, I have to reason about the space, reason about uh

I can go up the staircase, I can recognize the fridge, I reason about my movement. So that's reasoning. Uh that's

movement. So that's reasoning. Uh that's

another part of spatial intelligence. A

third part of spatial intelligence is gen generation. Is that in my mind's

gen generation. Is that in my mind's eye, even though I'm not seeing the your living room, but I actually have a view of what that living room looks like. If

I'm a more more a better artist, I can actually generate a lot of um visual 2D

or 3D or or 4D visual artifacts and pieces. So humans can generate a lot of

pieces. So humans can generate a lot of space. And the fourth uh last but not

space. And the fourth uh last but not the least part of visual intell uh sorry spatial intelligence is interactivity is

how I focus on um interacting with the space right like how uh again laundry folding that's my favorite uh uh weekend

activity these days uh that's deeply spatial how you fold each piece of garment and how you hang them in the the

closet and and all that is highly interactive. So spatial intelligence is

interactive. So spatial intelligence is these four things understanding, reasoning, generation and interaction.

And uh we are working on that. We have

made tremendous progress. I'm I'm saying collectively uh you know today you use say uh nano banana or if you use GPT

image uh that tool can actually help you to generate a lot of 2D imagery. It can

actually explain to you what unknown flower is in your garden. Uh that

understanding is is quite advanced. It

can helps you help you to reason. Now we

can actually uh draw figures in in AI tools. Um the the generation part right

tools. Um the the generation part right now the more mature products on the 2D side. What world labs is doing is on the

side. What world labs is doing is on the 3D side. 3D is so fundamental for

3D side. 3D is so fundamental for robotic interaction for truly controllable creativity such as design,

architecture, game development, uh VFX.

So that's the piece we are working on.

Is it separate from LLMs? Like I mean do LLMs have their limit and then world models step in? Uh yes and no. I think

they're complimentary. Uh you can think about humans right just as you were saying to to put a basketball in the um

hoop. First of all, that's such a fast

hoop. First of all, that's such a fast action that people don't like sit there and think and talk in their head. But I

do think that is a even that act itself is a highly complex intelligent moment where uh language reasoning come in

because you probably as an athlete you are you are keenly aware of the scoringness or missingness. what it

means to the game or to the moment. And

some of that is probably going on in the language way, but seeing the court, seeing the other players and and aiming

the ball, that is deeply spatial. And

then orient orienting your body like knowing how to make that move is deeply physical. So, so many things we

deeply physical. So, so many things we do in life is actually a mixture of language, linguistic ex uh intelligence,

spatial intelligence, and physical intelligence. So, to me, they're very

intelligence. So, to me, they're very complimentary. They work together. I do

complimentary. They work together. I do

deeply believe spatial is a huge piece of it. evolution took 500 million plus

of it. evolution took 500 million plus years to get spatial intelligence to maturity. It took much a much shorter

maturity. It took much a much shorter time for language intelligence. So it's

a very profound ancient uh fundamental intelligent capability of animals and humans and how far are we from uh

understanding the fullness of it like 100% of wow I as a scientist I never know what's

100% because science itself is pushing the boundaries of unknown the the if the goalpost is human intelligence The challenge is we don't even know how

far human intelligence is, right? We we

we never know the the boundary of human intelligence. But uh if you think the

intelligence. But uh if you think the daily capability of humans, the average capabilities folding, right? The the the

the the cooking omelette, the the laundry folding, the playing basketball.

Um how far are we? We're not there yet.

But is it going to take a hundred years?

I don't think so. My my goal is we could get there in my lifetime.

And I think a lot of people are working on that. So that put a kind of a bound

on that. So that put a kind of a bound right. I don't think it will take 100

right. I don't think it will take 100 years. It might not even take 50 years,

years. It might not even take 50 years, but it's not going to take one year either.

What What is your estimate? When does

Dr. her faith retire from laundry folding on Sundays how many years yesterday

um like I said I don't know the laundry itself is also uh involves physical embodiment so that's that that

also involves sensor technology and uh hardware technology so that that so that goes a little bit more complex um but

again I'm hoping as our lifestyle.

Yeah, me too. As a mom, I have hoping I I mean I know this is a term that you avoid for a whole host of factors, but

my hypothesis would be you can't get anywhere close to what AGI, which I know is a word that you avoid for a host of reasons, is you can't even get close to

it until we do the spatial intelligence because that's about that's to read people, that's to interact in the world.

Yeah, you know, look, I'm not going to fight the popularity of this word. It's

just as a scholar, we always uh the field in in the academic world is called artificial intelligence. It's it's it's

artificial intelligence. It's it's it's not scientifically rigorously clear what the G means here, right? So, but

whatever. That's just a word we we could uh it's just a nickname, I guess. Um

yeah, I agree with you, David. I think

AI or intelligence is complex. I I I don't think the picture of AI would be complete without spatial intelligence.

So we mentioned agency so many times today. David, as someone who runs an

today. David, as someone who runs an educational company, what would be your advice for people who want to work on their agency? How do you even teach your

their agency? How do you even teach your kids agency?

It's a really good question. The

research, I've looked into it a lot, is not quite there yet. So we don't know exactly how to do it. We have hypotheses

and if you break down agency into into individual parts, we we then have clues for it. So for example, we know to be

for it. So for example, we know to be able to feel safe to actually take risks is is an important part of it. We know

that being able to fail and learn from those is is is a big part of agency. We

know the resilience to get back up is really important part of it. Um we know that there's a curiosity in the world that's also a really big part of it.

There's also things of like fundamental needs to want to solve a thing or to impress someone which isn't necessarily the best traits but those things drive

if you need to solve a problem issue or whatever is going to drive you to to solve that is going to help you force you to find agency.

I think the research I've seen is much more on the qualitative side of what drives agency. Things people will say um

drives agency. Things people will say um and there's some evidence for this. It's

just weak. It's

you want to you want to put yourself in places that are going to be hard and new for you.

So you want to get and that starts as a kid, right? You want to be in a world

kid, right? You want to be in a world that you have the fundamentals of love

and food and sleep and mental health are provided for you there. Um we know also that you can incentivize it too. So I

think you know uh we have done things where you get additional comp if you do this thing.

comp does push you to do things on it.

Um but agency itself from my own experience.

So much of life in society we are taught to seek praise.

If you think about it as kids, praise from our moms and dads, y school, praise from our instructors, um jobs from our bosses

and having agency and that to your point that entrepreneurialism that isn't just for entrepreneurs.

It's almost a rejection of that societal value or push to be praised. I remember

when I started masterclass, everybody told me it was an impossible idea and a bad idea. And that was really hard for

bad idea. And that was really hard for me for somebody who sought praise for most of my life. And then but then what I had to realize and change was to if

you have an idea that everybody thinks it's good, it's probably not a good idea. M

idea. M and that you actually to have agency and to be an entrepreneur you have to chase what other people think is actually impossible and then now as an entrepreneur when somebody says

something's impossible I'm like oh that's what I want to do like I want to dive more into that right and so I think it's like a fundamental shift and it comes from a lot of things that like I wish I knew if I teach you

these four things you're now going to have high agency it's more complicated than that yeah totally I think you said it beautifully yeah I you have this aspect of which I feel like is an aspect of

agency independent thinking. You wrote

this uh substack where um you're teaching people to like switch everything off, make your own decisions but and um generate your own thoughts.

What I feel like as someone who's been taught to respond to praise, it's so scary cuz if it's contrarian to most your friends and you like come out with

this opinion and they disagree with you, how do you train that muscle? Cuz I feel so important for agency as well.

Well, this question goes into the heart of family values. How do I personally train

family values. How do I personally train that muscle for for me, my kids, my students is um is everything David said.

It's encouragement is uh is um um you know as simple as don't be lazy.

I know that people my generation lament about there's too much internet, there's too much social, there's too much AI. I

actually have a contrarian view. Um, I

think our new generation, our ne next generations, I'm actually a little envious of them because I think their world is much more heterogeneous

that if you're used to being on Twitterx, you're used to being on Insta or uh Tik Tok, you start to realize the

the world is full of voices.

Yeah. instead of that one teacher or one parent when the world was smaller and narrower. So our new generation of young

narrower. So our new generation of young people are are natively born into a world full of voices, full of opinions,

full of possibilities and that can be daunting. that can be if used misguided. We we we know I'm not

saying I mean there's a lot of issues in social media and and all that but that can be also opportunity because you kind

of you can use this reality to to remind the young generation look it's it's your voice that matters because

you know there's no authoritarian voice or or tiny tiny number of people holds the megaphone right and and that can

um used to encourage um young generation to to re-examine the century they're living in. And this

is a century of a lot of tools that can give you agency. This is a century of your voice matter more than anybody

else's voice if you believe in that. And

that's very different from our generation. Do you have anything like

generation. Do you have anything like that like an unlock for people who are curious about AI just starting?

So, so first of all, if it's narrowly about my employee, I I mean I live they probably are working

on more AI than I do. So, so that's just a mood question for a deep AI tech startup like World Labs. But I do want

to uh turn that question to talk to those who are um more in the public especially the generation right now who

you're already professionals. You you

are teachers, nurses, you know, accountants, whoever you are. And um and the public discourse, like we said earlier, is so polarized. you don't

really other than anxiety you don't really know how you can get to AI. I

think I do want to encourage um people who feel that way is that um

find a kid either your own kid or your nephew or your niece that they are

likely to be younger than 25 years old.

almost all of them are already using AI in some way and uh be curious ask them to just show

you how they use AI and uh don't worry about this as a technology but be curious about the

future world that they will live in your kid will be living your grandkid will be living in your student will be living in and try to just imagine

that you're going to take that journey into that world anyway and they can be your guide.

Yeah.

And just not worry about the I never learned computer science or I don't know which app I can open. Just let the young person in your life who you already

trust or have a relationship with hold your hand for a weekend or for for a session and show you that this is a

world that's not that scary if you actually know what it is and it can be empowering and if you do find it

troublesome, if you do find it uh imperfect by knowing it, by knowing where these issues are your voice can be heard better.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I think that's an amazing ending to this. Thank you so much. Stay curious,

this. Thank you so much. Stay curious,

develop your agency, work on it, and thank you so much for your input and for your work.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.