Google CEO Sundar Pichai on the future of search, AI agents, and selling Chrome

[Music] So Nepai, you're the CEO of Alphabet and Google. Welcome back to the coder. Well

Google. Welcome back to the coder. Well

good to be back. Feels like a nice tradition post IO to be talking to you.

So good to be back. I think this is the third year we've done this after IO. I'm

excited. Thank you for keeping the tradition alive. Lots to talk about. You

tradition alive. Lots to talk about. You

announced a lot of things yesterday during the keynote. Uh there's AI mode rolling out for US users. Big updates to Gemini. There's V3 and Imagine the

Gemini. There's V3 and Imagine the generators. You solved Pokemon with

generators. You solved Pokemon with robots, which is very exciting. You

know, my takeaway yesterday was that Google feels very confident now. There's

there's a a real confidence about the technology coming to life and the products. A lot of things are shipping

products. A lot of things are shipping imminently. What's the one piece that

imminently. What's the one piece that gave you that confidence? Is it just the volume of things that are shipping? Is

it one technology that clicked into being ready for consumers? Where where

is it coming from? Look, I think it comes from the depth and breadth of uh of the AI frontier. We are pushing like at a in a

frontier. We are pushing like at a in a in a more fundamental and foundational way. We spoke a lot about this theme

way. We spoke a lot about this theme called research becomes reality. But it

is you know always felt we are a deep computer science company and you know we've been AI first for a while. So

putting all that together and and bringing it to our products at the at the depth and breadth is what I think it's really pleasing to see. for example

like you know people may not have noticed it much it was so quick we spoke about text diffusion models in the middle of the whole thing but you know but we're pushing the frontier on all

dimensions right and so de spoke about world models so I think uh to me that's the exciting part like how deep we are pushing this frontier and then bringing it to users and so maybe that's what

that's what makes it feel that way you you mentioned research into reality several, times, obviously, a, lot, of these projects have been cooking in labs for a long Um, you've said many times you think AI will be as profound as

electricity. Yes. Over the past many

electricity. Yes. Over the past many many years that you and I have talked about it, but you said something yesterday that I think adds to that which is that we're in a new phase of the platform shift, right? And people

have talked about AI being a platform shift for quite a while. That always has meant to me that there's a user interface platform shift coming, right?

We're going to interact with computers in natural language and more natural ways and they will interact with us back in that same way and everything will change. Is that the platform shift?

change. Is that the platform shift?

Yeah, there are you know you are right uh each of these platform shifts uh you know changes many things on the IO front uh nothing to do with Google IO just IO in the traditional uh computer science

sense you know you could feel it yesterday when I watched the Android XR I've used them and played around with them but watching it to people talking in different languages you can envision the future one day where it'll actually

be seamless in a way you couldn't have done it with phones you couldn't have done it without AI because there's nothing in your way you're looking at the other person and talking right and so that is an element of platform shift

but there are many more elements right this is the only platform where I think the actual platform is over time capable of creating and self-improving and so on

in a way we could have never talked about any other platform before so that's why I think it's much more profound than the other platform shifts it'll allow people to create new things

in a way uh you know because at each layer of the stack there's going to be profound improvements and so I think that virtuous cycle you get uh in terms

of how you can unleash this creative power to all of society be it software engineers be it creators I think that is in going to happen in a a much more multiplicative way and that that you

know so when I say it's a next phase I'm talking about that part too let me just put make that more concrete for people I think the last platform shift we all understand is the shift to That's right. And that was right. We're

That's right. And that was right. We're

going to have multi-touch. We're going

to have faster cell connections. We're

going to increase processing power that can go with you everywhere. And then

there was a layer of applications that was enabled by all of those things. You

can push a button and a Toyota Camry will show up wherever you are in the world is like a very powerful thing that required all of those ideas. Well, how

would you describe the phase we're in now compared to that? The phase of this because the first phase of AI was the transformers work and the models work and we can all see this capability.

Yeah. The second phase what what is it to you?

Just just imagine um you know like the when when the internet came blogging became a thing. You know pre- internet very few people had a means by which

they could put out their thoughts out to the world right you know with the internet came a new medium. It allowed

people to create and express themselves in a new way. With mobile cameras and you could shoot and like you know you could create videos. um you know look at what what's happened with YouTube. For

me the similar part of this is you know we're all talking about things like VIP coding yesterday you saw V3 right so we are now in that phase I think people are

going to be able to create AI applications you can call it but you know VIP coding there are many names to it but that that power is yet to be

unleashed we're barely scratching the surface right and these models are now you know they aren't quite there you can you can kind of do oneshot coding but

you really need to know be a programmer to kind of go iterate and create something with polish right but that frontier is evolving pretty rapidly so I think we you're going to see a new wave

of things just like mobile did just the internet did uh you know I came to go Google at the time when it was Ajax was the revolution uh the fact that the web

became dynamic you know you had things like Google maps flicker Gmail all that suddenly came into existence right and but I think AI is going to turbo charge uh in a way we haven't seen before. It

feels like to me like what you're describing is we're in the phase where the products are developed, right? The

capabilities were the first phase and now we're going to make some actual products and and more people can build products than ever before. That's the

multiplicative part I'm talking about.

Not just this platform helps you create more products. The the process of

more products. The the process of creating, developing, etc. is going to be accessible to a much wider swath of humanity than ever before. I'm wondering

when you look at the landscape of products that exist now most people experience AI in Gemini or chat as a chatbot the general purpose interface to a bunch of knowledge that will talk to

you what products do you see that will have the same kind of impact as the web two products you were talking about besides the general purpose chatbot you know uh well obviously you've seen away

with uh coding ides right like you know that entire landscape is I can't even keep track of uh you know how many new companies have come into and people are using a lot of it right and yesterday we

showed a bunch of partners with whom we are working so that's an area where because coding is where maybe AI is making the uh most progress you're

seeing, the, application, layer, at least, in terms of code uh code editors uh really come into vogue we've had success with notebook LM right we're launching products like flow yesterday right flow

is a new product which allows you to create and imagine So those are all applications we are doing. Uh I think others are beginning to do you know people are working on like legal assistance and there are all kinds of

startups uh you know I I was recently in a doctor's office and they do have AI kind of look at I mean transcribe the whole thing put it all in reports and so on that's at an enterprise application

layer kind of completely works different than when I went to that visit 2 years ago. So all that change is happening

ago. So all that change is happening across the board but I think we just in the early stages. So you know you will see it play out over the next three to five years in a big way. Did you ask your doctor what model their

transcription software is running? No I

didn't., No, I, didn't., Yeah., One, of the reasons I'm asking this and I'm pushing on this is the amount of huge investment in the capability from Google and others has to pay off in some products that

return on that investment. Notebook LM

is great. I don't think it's going to fully return on Google's data center investment, let alone the investment in pure AI research. Do you see a product that can return on that investment at scale?

Look, do you think in 2004 if you had looked at Gmail, which was a 20% project which people were internally using internally as an email service.

you know, how would we be able to think about, you know, Gmail is what led us to do workspace, get into the enterprise. I

made a big bet on Google Cloud, you know, uh, which is, you know, tens of billions of dollars in revenue today right? And, and so my point is, uh, you

right? And, and so my point is, uh, you know, things build out over time, right?

Um, think about the journey we've been with Whimo, right? And so I think one of the mistakes people make often in a period of rapid innovation is think about what is that next big business

versus looking at the underlying innovation and say can you build something and put out something which people love and use right and and and out of which you you do the next thing

and you know create value out of it. So

when I look at it AI is the such a horizontal piece of technology across our entire business. It's why you know I mean it impacts not just Google search

YouTube cloud, all of Android you saw XR etc. Google Play things like Whimo isomorphic which is based on Alpha Fold. So I've never seen one piece of

Fold. So I've never seen one piece of technology which can impact and help us create so many businesses right and you know AI is going to be so useful as an assistant. I think that people will be

assistant. I think that people will be willing to pay for it too. We're

introducing subscription plans. So

there's a lot of you know headroom ahead I think and and obviously that's why we are investing because we see that opportunity some of it will take uh take time and it may not be always

immediately obvious uh you know I gave the way example in fact 3 years ago people were the sentiment on was quite negative 3 years ago you know but I actually you know as a company we increased our investment into way more

at that time right because you're betting on the underlying technology and you're seeing the progress of where it's going but these are good questions right in in some ways if you don't realize the

opportunities that may constrain the pace of uh you know investment in this area but I but I you know but it I'm optimistic we'll be able to unlock new opportunities one reason I wanted to start here as the foundation of the

conversation is you showed off Android XR yesterday you showed off some prototype glasses you have some partners making glasses a lot of people think augmented reality glasses powered by AI

will be the realization of the full platform shift Right. You will have an always on assistant that can look at the world around you. You showed some of those demos yesterday. The form factor will change. The interface will change.

will change. The interface will change.

This will be a market as big as smartphones were. How close do you think

smartphones were. How close do you think we are to that as a mainstream product?

Um, you know, it was a nice reflective moment all the way back from Google Glass. Uh, you know, wearing the

Glass. Uh, you know, wearing the product. I think there's a difference

product. I think there's a difference between goggles and glasses. uh you know everyone at Verge understands this as well but you know obviously we are also shipping goggles you know we have

announced uh uh products with Samsung to come later this year on the XR side I think I'm excited about our partnership with Gentle Monster and Barbie Parker

will have products in the hands of developers this year and I think but I think those products will be pretty close to what people eventually see as

final products so I'm excited I The pace is actually pretty uh we palpable. So

I'd be shocked if you you and I were sitting next year. Uh you know I wasn't wearing one of that uh when I'm doing the Do you think but that will be like a mainstream iPhone level replacement

product cuz there's a lot of hardware that needs to get developed along the way to pull that off. Yeah, there are there are look you're wearing something on your face. people like I have prescription uh right and uh you know

the bar is higher I think in terms of making the experience seamless enough that you're willing to wear it in your face and enjoy it for all so so I don't think nely next year it's as mainstream

as what you're talking about but would millions of people be trying it I think so yeah so both are both are true I think so I have to ask you just before we sat down openai announced that Johnny

IV was selling a company he had started called IO to the company and IV and his design consultancy love from would take over all design. They didn't announce a product but they said it's the future of

computing and it's coming next year. Is

do you anticipate more of that competition that your competitors who don't have a smartphone operating system will go even harder in this direction?

I'm looking forward to a open IO announcement ahead of Google IO the night before. No, first of all, look

night before. No, first of all, look stepping back, I mean, Johnny IV is, uh you know, uh, one of a kind. You know

you look at this track record over the years. I've definitely, uh, I've met him

years. I've definitely, uh, I've met him only once or twice, but, you know, I've admired his work obviously like so many of us. Uh, so I think it's it's

of us. Uh, so I think it's it's exciting, shows, you know, this is why I feel like it's such there's so much innovation ahead. Uh, and I think people tend to

ahead. Uh, and I think people tend to underestimate this moment in some ways.

people tend to I always like to point out when the internet happened Google didn't even exist right I think what people so when you when you think about I think AI is going to be bigger than

the internet there are going to be companies products categories created which we aren't aware of today so I think the future looks exciting I think there's a lot of opportunity to innovate

around uh uh innovate around hardware form factors at this moment with this platform shift so I'm looking forward to seeing what they uh you know we are going to be doing a lot as well and I

think you know it's it's a exciting time to be a consumer it's an exciting time to be a developer so I think looking forward to it I've in that video described the phone and the laptop is legacy platforms which is very

interesting considering his own history are you all the way there that the phone and laptop are legacy platforms look I think these things if anything uh I

found through this AI moment using the web a lot right? Because I'm like it's easier to

right? Because I'm like it's easier to create a V3 video on my browser in a big screen, right? And and and so um I think

screen, right? And and and so um I think the way I've internalized is computing will be available in like you don't have to make these hard choices. You know

you will computing is will become so essential to you. You're going to have it in multiple ways around you when you need it, right? like I use a phone, a

tablet, a laptop, and I have my workstation, right? And so I have the

workstation, right? And so I have the breadth of it. Um, and but but you know I I you know, over time it makes sense to me at some point in the future

consuming content by pulling out this black glass display rectangle in front of you and looking at it is not the most intuitive way to do it. But I, you know but I think it's going to take some time. I feel like we could do a full

time. I feel like we could do a full hour just on Android tablets and where they could go. We're going to come back for that. A big part of what you're

for that. A big part of what you're describing implicates search in in really big ways, right? We're going to be surrounded by information. Search or

Gemini or some future Google product will organize that information, take action for you across the web in some way and you will have a a companion and maybe you only pull out your tablet to watch a video or something. A lot of

what's going on with search has downstream effects on the web downstream effects on information providers broadly. Are you starting?

providers broadly. Are you starting?

Last year we spent a lot of time talking about those effects. Are you seeing that play out the way that you thought it would?

Look, I um you know it depends. Uh I think I do think people are consuming a lot more information. Um and you know web is one

information. Um and you know web is one specific format. So we should talk about

specific format. So we should talk about the web but zooming back out you know there are new platforms like YouTube and others too. So I think people are just

others too. So I think people are just consuming a lot more information right.

So it feels like an expansionary moment.

Uh I think there are more creators people are putting out more content. Um

you know and so people are generally doing a lot more maybe people have a little bit extra time in their hands and so it's a combination of all that on the web. Look things which have been uh

web. Look things which have been uh interesting and you know we've had these uh conversations for a while you know obviously in 2015 there was this famous the web is dead uh you know I I always

have it somewhere around you know which I look at it once in a while uh predictions it's existed for a while I think the web is evolving pretty pretty profoundly I think that is true when we

crawl when we look at the number of web pages available to us that number has gone up by 45% in the last two years alone Right. So that's a staggering thing to

Right. So that's a staggering thing to think. Can you detect if the if that

think. Can you detect if the if that number if that volume increase is because more pages are generated by AI or not? This is the thing I I worry

or not? This is the thing I I worry about the most. Right. I um it's a good question. We generally have many

question. We generally have many techniques in search to try and understand the quality of a page including whether it was machine generated etc. This trend that doesn't explain

this trend we are seeing right. So

generally there are more web pages right? So uh you know so so you know at

right? So uh you know so so you know at an underlying level. So I think that's an interesting uh phenomenon. I think

everybody as a creator like you do at Verge I think today if you're doing stuff you have to do it in a crossplatform cross format way uh in a uh you know I look at the quality of

video content you put out. It's very

sophisticated right? You know and uh very different from how words used to be maybe 5 to 10 years ago right? It's

profoundly changed. So I think things are becoming more dynamic cross format.

I think the thing another thing people are under underestimating with AI is AI will make it zero friction to move from one format to another right because

our models are natively multimodal. We

kind of tease people's imagination with audio overviews in notebook right the fact you can throw a bunch of documents at it and you have a podcast and you can

join and learn from it. So I think this notion the static moment of like you produce content by format whereas I think machines can help translate it

from it's almost like different languages and they can go seamlessly between I think it's one of the incredible opportunities to be unlocked right ahead and so uh but maybe I didn't

want to drift from the uh question we were having but I look I I think I think people are producing a lot of content and I see consumers consuming consuming

a lot of content and and you know it's we we see it in our products others are seeing it too so that's that's how I would probably answer at the highest level the way I I see it currently is

that the web is at an all-time high as an application platform right the fact that Figma exists and is as successful as it is and its primary interfaces as a web app is I think remarkable a lot of

the products you were talking about are expressed as web apps even some of the most interesting search results you showed yesterday are, you know, Google would generate a custom web app for you and display it in a search result to do

some data visualization. I think that's all looking incredible. I think the web as a transaction platform is reaching new heights, especially with rulings that mean smartphone makers have to let people push transactions to the web.

There's something very interesting happening there. As a media platform, it

happening there. As a media platform, it feels like it's at an all-time low right? If I was starting the verge, the

right? If I was starting the verge, the web, that's a media platform. The web is a media plat is an information platform.

If I was starting The Verge today uh with 11 of my co-founder and friends, we would start a Tik Tok channel. We we

might start a YouTube channel. We would

definitely not start a website with the dependencies we have as a website today.

And that's the dynamic that it feels like AI is pushing on even harder. I'm

not fully sure I agree. Right. I think

you know I think if you were to go and restart Verge again, I bet you would start a uh you would have a extraordinary web presence at best. No

I I've thought about this a lot. I think

at at best our web presence would look like a Substack or a ghost or something right? Uh maybe. Look, I u you know I'm

right? Uh maybe. Look, I u you know I'm not you know I'm not fully sold on that like you know but you know you know the space. I acknowledge you know that space

space. I acknowledge you know that space better than I do. Uh so I don't mean to be uh mean to be you know I don't have that intuition which you do here. Uh but

look I I see in fact you say the web application platform is an all-time high but I've looked you know I was wipe coding with

replet a few weeks ago uh you know create I mean the power of what you're going to be able to create on the web we haven't given that power to developers

in 25 years. Mhm. So that is going to come ahead.

So, you know, it's not exactly clear to me. Uh, you know, maybe today you're

me. Uh, you know, maybe today you're looking at and say, I won't put all the investment in because it looks like a lot of investment to do that. But that

may not be true 2 years out, right?

Like, you know, if you feel like you would create a Tik Tok channel, then you know, maybe with like 2% extra effort, if you could have a robust web presence, why wouldn't you? Right? And

so so I'm not fully I you know I'm not fully sold on it but I think it's a good question to ask but you know you have to somehow reconcile that with the fact

that overall that traffic seems to be growing we see more web pages in so somewhere we have to explain all of that too. You know the publishers as they

too. You know the publishers as they often do responded to Google IO announcements. So the news media

announcements. So the news media alliance uh after AI mode was announced yesterday I would say they're very upset. Uh here's here's a statement from

upset. Uh here's here's a statement from the president of the news media alliance. Links were the last redeeming

alliance. Links were the last redeeming quality of search that gave publishers traffic and revenue. Now Google takes content by force and uses it with no return, no economic return. That's the

definition of theft. And they go on to say the DOJ lawsuits must address it.

That's pretty furious. That's not a negotiation, right? That's a we just

negotiation, right? That's a we just want this to stop. How do you respond to that very loud set of people who say "Yeah, okay, maybe it's growing somewhere, but for us it's crushing our

businesses." Look I um you know first of

businesses." Look I um you know first of all through all the products I mean AI mode is going to have sources and you

know one of we're very committed as a direction as a product direction uh to make I think part of why people come to Google is to experience that breadth uh

of the web and and go in the direction they want to right so I view us as giving more context yes there are certain questions which may get answers but overall and that's the pattern we

see today right and and if anything over the last year it's clear to us the breadth of where we are sending people to is increasing uh and and so I I expect that to be true with AI mode as

well but if it was increasing wouldn't they be less angry with you look I more than you're you're always going to have areas where people are robustly debating

value exchanges etc right like app developers and platforms that's not on the web etc right it's inherently the uh you know you know there's always going to be when you're running a platform

these debates I would challenge I think more than any other company we we think about we prioritize sending traffic to

the web no one sends traffic to the web in the way we do I look at other companies newer emerging companies they openly talk about it as something they are not going to do right we are the

only ones which make it a high priority agonize nice and so on. Look, we'll

engage and you know, we've always engaged. There are going to be uh

engaged. There are going to be uh debates through it all, but we are committed to, you know, I've said this before, everything we do across all you

will see us 5 years from now, sending a lot of traffic out to the web. I think

that's the product direction we are committed to. I think it's what users

committed to. I think it's what users look for when they come to Google right? and uh and the nature of it will

right? and uh and the nature of it will evolve. But you know I I I you know I'm

evolve. But you know I I I you know I'm confident that that's the direction we'll continue taking. Is there public data that shows that AI overviews and AI mode actually send more traffic out than the previous search engine results page?

Look, it's you know the way we look at it is I mean obviously we take a lot of uh we definitely uh sending traffic to a wider range of uh uh uh sources

publishers and and because just like we've done over 25 years we went through the same with featured snippets the the quality of you know it's higher quality

referral traffic too so right and we can observe it because the time when people spend as one metric and there are other ways by which we measure quality of our outbound traffic is also increasing

So and overall through this transition I think generally AI overviews are also growing and you know the growth compounds over time. So whenever we have worked through these transitions it ends

up post that's how Google has worked for uh 25 years and you know and we end up sending more traffic over time. So

that's that's how I would expect all this to play out. So why do you think that there is so much general economic turmoil on that side of the the house right? If you're sending more traffic

right? If you're sending more traffic and the goal over time is to make sure that that sending traffic to we're a year into it, right? And it it doesn't seem to have gotten better over there.

No, look, we are sending traffic to a broader source of people. People may be you know uh surfacing more content looking at more content. So somebody

individually may see less. I mean there are all kinds of at the end of the day we are reflecting what users want. Mhm.

Right. You know if you do the wrong thing users won't use our product go somewhere else. Right. And and and so

somewhere else. Right. And and and so you have uh uh you know you have all these dynamics underway and I think we have genuinely you know we took a long time designing a AI overviews and we are

constantly iterating uh in a way that we prioritizes you know sources and sending traffic to the web. I mean, my my criticism of this industry, just be clear, is that everyone's addicted to

Google, and it would be better if they weren't, but they're addicted to Google right? And they're they're feeling it.

right? And they're they're feeling it.

And then on top of that, you see, you've mentioned several times, like overall queries are increasing on Google services, but they're they're changing right? They're getting longer. They're

right? They're getting longer. They're

getting more complicated. AI mode might walk you through several steps. Maybe

some people are searching on TikTok now.

Eddie EQ uh on the stand in the trial the other day said uh search and Safari for the last month dropped for the first time in 22 years. That's a big stat.

Obviously your stock price uh was affected by it. There was a statement.

Is that trend bearing out that the standard Google search is is dropping from devices and different kinds of searches are increasing? No, look uh we've been very

increasing? No, look uh we've been very clear. We are seeing overall query

clear. We are seeing overall query growth in search. Um you know it looks but have you actually seen the drop in Safari?

Look, we have a comprehensive view of how we look at data across the board. Uh

there's a lot of there can be a lot of noise in search data. Uh but everything we see tells us we are seeing query growth including across Apple's devices and platforms. Uh and specifically, you

know, I think we quantified the query growth from AI overviews and what's what's healthy is that the query growth is continuing to grow over time. This is

what I I've said before. It feels very far from a zero sum game to me. I said

this last year. It's interesting. We

spoke about Tik Tok, right? Think about

like how profound a new product Tik Tok was. How has YouTube done since Tik Tok

was. How has YouTube done since Tik Tok has come? Right? You could ask all these

has come? Right? You could ask all these questions there. Like why is it that Tik

questions there. Like why is it that Tik Tok comes and YouTube has grown? I think

what we always underestimate in these moments is people are engaging more doing more with it. we are improving our products and and so you know so that's how I would I would think about these

moments let me just broaden that out to agents right uh I watched Dennis Asabis yesterday he was on stage with Sergey Brin and Alex Hantritz asked him what does a web look like in 10

years and Dennis said I don't know that an Asian first web looks anything like the web that we have today I don't know that we have to render web pages for agents the way that we have to see them that kind of implies that the web will

turn into a series of databases for various agents to go and ask questions to and return those answers. And I I've been thinking about this in the context of services like Uber and Door Dash and

Airbnb. Why would they want to

Airbnb. Why would they want to participate in that and be abstracted away for agents to use the services they've spent a lot of time and money building? Two things though. First

building? Two things though. First

there's a lot to unpack. It's a

fascinating topic. Um the web is a series of databases, etc. We build a UI on top of it for for all of us to consume. This is exactly what I wanted

consume. This is exactly what I wanted is the web is a series of databases. It

is like you know but I think I think I I listened to the uh te surrogate conversation yesterday I enjoyed it. I

think he's saying for a agent first web like so you know for a web which is interacting with agents you would you would think about how to make that process more efficient. Today you're running a

efficient. Today you're running a restaurant people are coming dining and eating and people are ordering takeout and delivery. Obviously for for you to

and delivery. Obviously for for you to service the takeout you would think about it different than all the tables and the clothing and the furniture and the like you know so but both are important to

you. You could be a restaurant which

you. You could be a restaurant which decides I'm not going to participate in the takeout business. I'm only going to focus on uh on on on the dining experience. You're going to have some

experience. You're going to have some people vice versa. I'm going to say I'm going to go all in on this and run a different uh experience. So to your

question on agents right I think think of agents as uh you know a new powerful format. I do think it'll happen in

format. I do think it'll happen in enterprises faster than consumer. Mhm.

Because in the context of an enterprise you have a CIO who's able to go and say I really don't know why these two things don't talk to each other. Yeah. Right.

I'm not going to buy more of this unless you interoperate with this. uh so I I think partly why you see on the enterprise side a lot more uh uh agentic experiences on the consumer side I think

what you're saying is a good point right people have to think about and say what is the value for me to participate in this world and it could come in many ways it could be because I participated

in it and overall my business grows right some people may fa feel that it's disintermediating right and like it doesn't make sense I think all of that are you

uh all of that can happen but users may vote with their feet right like you know you may find like some people are supporting the agentic experience and your life is

better because of it and so you're going to have all these dynamics and like you know and I think they're going to try and find an equilibrium somewhere is how you know everything evolves yeah I mean I think the idea that the web is a series of databases and we change the

inter first of all this is like the most decoder conversation that we've ever had I'm very happy with it but you know I had DAR from Uber on the show. I asked

him this question from his perspective.

And his answer attracts yours broadly.

He said, "First, we'll do it because it's cool and we'll see if there's value there and if there is, you know, he's going to charge a a big fee for the agent to come and use Uber because losing the customer for him, losing the

ability to upsell or sell a subscription." None of that is great

subscription." None of that is great right? That it's the same is true for

right? That it's the same is true for Airbnb. I keep calling it the Door Dash

Airbnb. I keep calling it the Door Dash problem. Like Door Dash should not be a

problem. Like Door Dash should not be a dumb pipe for sandwiches, right? that

they they're trying to actually run a business and they want the customer relationship. And so if the agents are

relationship. And so if the agents are going across the web and they're looking in all these databases and saying "Okay, this is where I get food from and this is where I get cars from and this is where I book I think the demo was

booking a a vacation home in Spanish right? And I'm going to connect you to

right? And I'm going to connect you to that agent uh that travel agent." Is it just going to be tolls that everyone pays to let the agents work? Because the

the price I I still don't the CIO gets to just spend money to solve the problem. Yeah, he says, "I want this

problem. Yeah, he says, "I want this capability for you and I'm just going to pay you to do it." The the market, the consumer market doesn't have that capability. Right?

capability. Right?

All kinds of models may emerge, right?

Uh I can literally see envision 20 different ways this could work, right?

Consumers could pay a subscription for agents and the agents could rev share back, right? So, you know, so that that

back, right? So, you know, so that that is a CIO like use case you're talking about. That's possible. We can't rule

about. That's possible. We can't rule that out.

uh rule that out. I don't think we should underestimate people may actually see more value participating in it. You

know, I think this is uh you know it's tough to predict. Uh but I do think uh over time like you know like if you're removing friction and improving user

experience, you know, it's tough to bet against those in the long run, right?

And so I think it, you know, I think if in general you're lowering friction for it, uh, you know, and people are enjoying using it, right? Somebody's

going to want to participate in it and grow their business. Yeah. Right. And

like would brands want to be in retailers, why don't they sell directly today? Yeah. Like why won't they do

today? Yeah. Like why won't they do that? I I don't know. Because retailers

that? I I don't know. Because retailers

provide value in the middle, right? And

like you know uh why do merchants take credit cards right like why pay I'm just saying so like there are many parts like and and you find equilibrium because merchants take credit cards because they

see more business as part of taking credit cards than not right and which justifies the increased cost of taking credit cards um it may not be the perfect analogy but I think there are

all these kinds of effects going around but but what you're saying is true that you know some of this will slow uh progress and agents just because we all are excited about A2A and MCP and we

think no like some of it will slow uh uh slow uh slow progress. Um but I think it'll be it'll be very dynamic. Yeah.

Yeah. There's other pressures on Google.

There's antitrust pressures. The

government would like you to sell Chrome. Can you do all the things you

Chrome. Can you do all the things you want to do if you're made to sell Chrome?

Look, I mean I you know I don't want to comment on Look, we are uh you know we are in a legal process. Um you know I look at having directly been involved in

building Chrome uh right I look at the I think there are very few companies which would have appro you know we we not only improved our product we improved like the state of the web by building Chrome

we open sourced it we provided as Chromium everyone else has access to the browser so I think the amount of R&D the amount of innovation we put into it uh

the investments in security etc we do so I think we to sell it. Can you do all the things that you want to do? Um

look, I I don't think that's the uh scenario we're looking at. stepping back

you know as a company look I I think as a company I think of ourselves as a deeply foundational technology company uh which then translates it into products that touch billions of people

and you know so we do it across many many things and so of course I think look as a company we are going to continue investing and doing our best to innovate and build a successful business

in all scenarios uh so this how I would answer it the Trump administration is uh extremely transactional I would say, you know, the tech industry has a new relationship with Trump in a second

term. You were at the inauguration. Have

term. You were at the inauguration. Have

you had conversations about what a settlement might look like and what the Trump administration might demand to make these problems go away? No. No.

Like, look, we we've always we we've engaged with the DOJ or like we do o over the years on in the context of all the all the cases we have. So, that's

you know, that's that's how we normally do these conversations. Trump has very publicly said he doesn't like his search ranking and he wants it changed in some way. Would you ever adjust the search

way. Would you ever adjust the search ranking for Donald Trump?

No. Like you know we have a I can't today the way Google search works is I cannot uh no person Google can influence the ranking algorithm in AI mode is

different right we've seen system prompts adjusted in very chaotic ways from some of your competitors. Is that

something that you would be open to in a world where you're serving the full answer? So, so would you adjust the AI

answer? So, so would you adjust the AI mode responses in response to political pressure? No. Because we we've seen

pressure? No. Because we we've seen certainly in Grock and others that system prompts change the answers in dramatic ways. No, like the way we do

dramatic ways. No, like the way we do ranking like you know the way we do ranking is sacrosan to us. Uh you know we've done it over 25 years. uh you know

we make a lot of when there's a lot of ranking signals we take into account and stuff and if there's broad feedback from people that something isn't working right we will look at it systematically

and try and make changes but you know we don't take look at individual cases and ever change ranking when you think about those, sources, of, information, one, of the things that I have been thinking about a lot is I don't know this the CDC web

pages have changed a lot recently right diversity equity inclusion language has been removed from pages across the government those used to be very high ranking sources in Google search, right?

We would we just implicitly trusted the CDC's web pages in some ways. Are you

re-evaluating that that there might be misinformation on some of these pages that then gets synthesized into AI results? No, it's a misunderstanding of

results? No, it's a misunderstanding of how search works, right? We don't

individually evaluate the authoritiveness of like a page, right?

And like it's what our signals does, you know, page ranket. It's, you know obviously our signals are multiple orders of magnitude more complicated than page rank today, but to

use page rank as an example, we weren't the ones determining how authoritative a page is. It's how other pages were

page is. It's how other pages were linking to it like an academic citation etc. So, so we don't, you know, so we are not making those decisions today.

And so I don't I don't see that changing. As you synthesize more of the

changing. As you synthesize more of the answers, do you think you're going to have to take more responsibility for the results?

Look, we are giving context around it and but we still anchoring it in, you know, the sources we find. Uh, you know but we've always felt a high bar, you

know, in in in Google. I mean, last year when we launched AI overviews, I think you know, people were adversely querying to find errors and the error rate was 1

in 7 million for adversal queries and so but that was a big but that's the bar.

We've always operated as a company and so I think to me nothing is nothing has changed like you know Google operates under a very high bar that's the bar we strive to meet and and you know our

search page results are there for everyone to see with that comes that natural uh accountability and you know we have to constantly earn people's trust so that's how I would approach it what do you think the marker is for the

next phase of the platform shift after this one we we open by talking about we're in a second phase what's the marker for the final phase or the third phase of the platform shift you mean of the AI platform. What what are you

looking for as the next marker? Oh, you

know, look, I think, you know, the the the real thing about AI, which I think why I've always called it more profound is, you know, self-improving technology right? And you know uh having watched

right? And you know uh having watched alpha go you know start from scratch not knowing how to play go and you know

within couple hours or 4 hours be better than uh a top level human players and in 8 hours you know no human can ever aspire to play against it right so you

know and that's the essence of the technology obviously in in in a in a in a deep way so I think look I think there's so much ahead

uh you know on the opportunity side you know I I'm blown away by the ability to discover new drugs you know completely uh change how we treat diseases like

cancer over time etc you know the opportunities there um you know I uh the creative power which I talked about which we're putting in everyone's hands

like the next generation of kids everyone can program and will to if you think of something you can create it I think, I, I, I don't, think, we, have comprehended what that means but that's going to be true. The part which the

next phase of the shift which is going to be really meaningful is when this translates into the physical world through robotics. Mhm. Right. So that

through robotics. Mhm. Right. So that

aha moment of robotics I think when it happens that's going to be the next big thing we will all uh grapple with.

Right. Today they're all online and you're doing things with it. But you

know one hand you know today I think of way more as a robot right? So we are running around uh driving around a robot but I'm talking more uh general purpose

robot and you know and when AI creates that magical moment with robotics I think that'll be a big platform shift as well. Yeah I'm looking forward to it

well. Yeah I'm looking forward to it next year we're going to do this with glasses, and, robots., It's, going to, be great. We'll we'll give it a shot. Thank

great. We'll we'll give it a shot. Thank

you, so, much., All right., Thanks., I

appreciate it. Are these setups getting more and

it. Are these setups getting more and more stuff? I just feel like I have to

more stuff? I just feel like I have to say something more important just for this time.