Grammy Winning Mix Engineer, Alex Tumay (Young Thug, 21 Savage, Travis Scott) - Pensado's Place #434

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coming to you from the all-new live

house in Hollywood California

hello this is Gordy joined my dad Alex

to me but first here's her everybody

welcome to this week's episode of

pensado's place our guest is the super

talented super amazing Alex to May but

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would certainly appreciate it our man

from Sweetwater miss Gallagher is fresh

off vacation has prepared a piece on

pre-delay so here's some sound advice

from Sweetwater hi I'm Mitch Gallagher

from Sweetwater welcome to sound advice

today we're checking out what I feel is

one of the most important parameters for

reverb settings and that's pre delay a

pre delay determines how long it takes

between the dry signal and when you

start to hear the actual reverb signal

come in this can have a great impact on

not only the sound of the reverb but

also the sound of a track because it

allows you to set that distance between

the dry signal and the wet signal it can

really change the intelligibility of

complex passages or vocals and it can

also be used as a special effect let's

take a look at a couple of examples

begin I have a track with just some

simple snare hits on it will open up our

reverb which in this case is fab filters

Pro R and our pre delay setting is down

here at the bottom I've got the pre

delay set to zero milliseconds which

means that the onset of reverb will

occur basically at the same time as you

hear the dry signal now as we bring

pre-delay up it'll delay when the onset

of that reverb occurs so I'll turn it

way up so we'll exaggerate the effect

but the subtleties of pre delay occur

when we work with that distance between

the dry signal and the wet signal so

let's go back to zero let's bring up the

pre delay in small increments so we can

hear the difference it makes when we

delay that onset of the effect signal

versus the dry signal we'll begin at

zero and I'll move up in 25 millisecond

increments you can hear it about 75

milliseconds we're starting to hear a

little bit of separation now between our

dry signal and our wet signal prior to

that the dry signal is still masking the

onset of the reverb but we're still

hearing a slightly different tone as we

change that pre delay even in small

increments because we're hearing the

effect of the dry signal overlapping the

reverb whereas in this case we're

starting to get to the point where the

onset of reverb is totally separate from

the dry signal

at longer pre-delay settings it almost

sounds like we have a delay between the

reverb and the dry signal that's pushing

that reverb back now this can be great

if you're creating a rhythmic effect or

if you're trying to clear things up to

allow the dry signal to speak more

clearly to demonstrate that I've got a

saxophone track here again we'll start

with the pre delay set to zero

milliseconds in this case when we're

looking at lower amounts of pre delay

what it sounds like we're changing is

the size of the room that we're in

because we're pushing that reverb back

from our dry signal the way we'd hear it

in a larger Hall eventually we'll get to

the point where there's separation

though between the dry signal and the

wet signal with longer pre delay

settings here we're at 150 milliseconds

it's almost again like we're adding a

delay before that reverb comes on and

that has the effect of pushing the

reverb back in the mix a bit so we still

have that big lush large sounding room

but it's pushed back a little bit and it

helps with the clarity and the

intelligibility of our dry track if we

turn the pre delay up even further we'll

get a much more pronounced delay effect

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depending on the type of signal we're

running into the reverb this can give us

the effect again of a long delay before

the reverb hits or the fact that we're

in a very large room by setting the pre

delay properly you can maintain the dry

signal while still adding all the

ambience that you want within your mix

without cluttering things up or making

things muddy thanks for joining me for

Sweetwater sound advice I'm Mitch

Gallagher

you've requested for a year we've played

tag a number of times he flew out

especially for this appear as he's hot

as fire and what a great story please

welcome to the desk our guest Alex to me

hey man welcome after lots of misses we

finally connected you know laughs yeah

well you know one of the most critical

questions almost many is how is Gordy is

he with you and and how is he doing he's

here the audience yeah I heard from you

know doing all the mix preps and obvious

isn't where gotcha gotcha

but it but it but there's a point to

Gordy that I think has a lot to do with

your mindset currently after this kind

of curve of success part of what you

have to have in order to manage this

level of success is organization and

balance yeah is that correct talk about

that I mean I think like when I first

moved to New York is when I got him and

I had no sense of like structure to my

life and it was kind of when you're a

freelance engineer you don't have to be

up at any time you know to go to sleep

at any time you know have to eat any

three meals a day you can eat one meal

whenever you get a chance and you could

wake up and do like all your mixes and

it could be 5a Avenue but oh no I have

to get out of this apartment through

this house at the studio and it was like

starting to wear on me you know and I

got to the point Roz what do I do and

I've always wanted a dog was like it

can't it's not gonna get in the way you

know I could bring him anywhere and you

travel with me and I just tweeted

does anybody have like any puppies right

now in some ways like my cousin does I

just linked up with her and you know a

few weeks later had a dog mm-hmm you

know since then it's been like gotta get

up in the morning you gotta walk the dog

yeah he does good you take him to the

studio with you often um I used to take

him more I think like the late nights

get home he gets grumpy and I kinda like

start barking at clients at night and I

was like okay maybe it's

but if I if it's like a day session or

do I have to add liability yeah but I

think the point our audience is that you

know when if you don't create structure

yeah it can own you and start to affect

your creativity in negative ways as well

as your life oh yeah and you know if

you're if you don't leave the apartment

but there was especially with like

seamless and I like the like food or any

stuff like I would maybe leave the house

every other day you know and I was

living I just moved to New York oh I

need to get so here's a change why why

am i living here if it's not to

experience the city you know and just

getting him kind of like brought me out

like that dungeon of sorts in the early

years there's you know the history from

full sail where you learn some stuff but

then sort of went on your own path to

the Atlanta years interning getting

connected to people like young thug and

Metro boomin and you know but 808 mafia

a bunch of incredible not only producers

and stuff but also other engineers and

mixers and studios how did those years

shape you did they create Alex to a

signature was it all relationships was

it both I mean I think specifically the

dark years where I had to kind of figure

it out we thought we took out everything

out of the studio's made it fully

digital it was very bare-bones you know

it was just like one vocal train in each

room and postal rate you know and like

the the mains are still in there and

then his tens and he saw the great

monitoring and the room sounded amazing

so we were able to get what we wanted

out of him but it wasn't the kind I

think right before I moved in the

console caught on fire know what DARP is

for those of you that don't it's down

sauce in a studio Dallas Austin it's one

of the great in fact my opinion want to

top five producers to have ever lived in

Atlanta and dark was his studio and it

was a cool studio head like graffiti on

the walls and yeah

had a graffiti artist come like custom

paint the entirety of the lobby and I

worked there quite a few tell it's a

great great spy it was a very creative

you know environment it's a future has

it that Alan was just about Alan was

there a lot so so the the learning curve

that happened to you did it shape your

ear to shape your technique what I think

because it was so bare-bones and it was

all in the box we and the music was

coming out will he finish the songs that

was it was such a special time in my

career because now I finish a song it

might be a year before any right hears

it and I have to sit on my hands and

like right go back then we I would be

uploading it just put it on soundcloud

whatever and so that's a lot of pressure

you know I had to record the song mixes

song master song whatever in that day

they recorded it and it would go out or

if I didn't upload it myself I'd give it

to them and you know nobody would come

back and then I hear it on right you

know online on datpiff or something the

next day mmm it could be kind of kind of

argued or maybe totally argued that you

were there for that kind of transition

from Atlanta being just another place to

being what it is now that transition

into trap mostly and you there early on

a future and a lot of the a lot of the

players that were shaping that sound I

think that South firkins are yeah I

think that the engineers kind of you

know we're along for the ride for that

you know like me he said Keisha was a

huge part of that and then all the other

dudes recording at the time because we

especially it dark me and Justin who is

my assistant there who ended up doing a

lot of the reporting we're just there

24/7 and everybody was they feel

something was changing we knew I mean

that's why we start around like you know

like it was a bunch of kids that really

hadn't had a big song yet and maybe

Metro

I know Southside and PM had a few big

ones like on a watch the throne like had

just come out

I think around that time so they've had

they had had big placements but nothing

like of their own yet and that was where

they kind of it all started for

everybody was Dallas still in and out or

he had already gone by then any time he

came through is that kind of event which

is awesome you know it was cool to see

like if he came through all the old

Atlanta people showed up like it turned

to a party with music but all this you

know reunion yes it's like a class

reunion with a minute is cool to like

just watch that based on that vantage

point and what you learn from it where

do you see things going in the hip-hop

world in the next say five years I think

this is a major studios become less of a

factor unless they're traveling you know

when somebody's traveling they need a

studio they can rely on they don't want

to go to someone's house they want to be

safe you know it's like some people

community Earth they like the major

studios know if you come to LA they love

the major studios banana Atlanta the

major studios who can be kind of

dropping off and people are just

building you know work workspaces in

their home that sound just good enough

to get like a good vocal which is really

you know in the rap world what you need

in the mixing world it's a little

different but on the recording side it's

like is a vocal clean we're working with

the two-track beat to record anyway to

start

you see the music changing any you think

tempos are gonna go up a little bit

I mean they've been going up from when

from when I was living in Atlanta it was

like in the 60s you know now it's not

like 70s even up to the 80s I mean well

you know one point one six years but I

don't know how much faster like you know

the ones I'm hearing this that speed

change um Pierre's doing a lot of it

here and put Mike Hardy like you there

up-tempo sounds really drove a lot of

the newer up-tempo stuff we hear it on

the news a gallon Pierre produced a lot

of it so and that's it gives it a lot of

a tempo mmm how did um DJing inform your

craft was that I know what people react

a lot better now yeah you know when I

was that come from when you were out on

the road with yeah well I mean I'm not a

teacher

mmm when we first started the first time

ever DJed was at Lollapalooza the first

one first ever so you believe in

starting low yeah yeah yes 7,000 people

and I didn't have a lot I didn't know I

was gonna be deejaying I had just with

this with the show mixes of the songs

and just in case the DJ wasn't good I

had program dropped him already cuz I

know what he likes so just you know just

automated a bunch of drops and then he

had every song ready to go and when he

went on stage she's like what are you

doing what I'm doing this gotta be

someone here that can DJ for you and

he's like no you're doing it so I took

the road managers laptop which is the

old 17-inch oh yeah and it also was slow

it also didn't have any DJ program oh I

do hit the spacebar it had like a 10

second delay my hitting space part of

the song stopping or Alex you may as

well come up with something I heard yeah

I think I think we should maybe call an

Alex to bands like DJ did I do next I

messed up a lot so in your in your work

do you think you have a signature do

people hire you for an Alex to a

signature and what would that be

I used to think I had assumed sure I

think the way like that we were treating

vocals because there were a lot more

effects heavy link in the 2014/15 like

with like RIT the rodeo sound in days

for rodeo sound and the rich gang sounds

like heavy altitude like a lot of

effects on the vocals they didn't sound

very like natural and that's kind of

gotten away as far as like being like

the sound of today it's a lot more drier

there's some kids that are still you

know throwing like heavy I like the

flanger and whatnot but really it's not

all over the place like it used to be

and I think people used to reach out to

me specific

for local mixing and then that kind of

went away and now people are reaching

out to me for how I mix beats and below

end and keep the 808 kind of in the

forefront without kind of eating the

rest of every how do you do that gain

staging it's literally thick I'm always

I don't do anything special I just give

it all the space in the world and then

just build around I start with baitoey

and then when it gets when it's so

you're mixing I'm being serious now but

when you're you're mixing the first

thing that you hear through the speakers

is the 808 then you build around it like

that or I would say kind of early I'll

meet everything but the drums and the

vocals okay and then it's like kick kick

kick slash 808 snare vocal which is how

I learn weird when I started interning

for Bend and Hugh's doing rock that's

how you start but because the 808 is so

much more important that you don't have

to adjust it to that are you saturating

it in E or saturation and distortion or

a huge part of it but it's mostly like

you know even just Decapitator just to

give a little bit of distortion just to

kind of make it stand out especially

because people are listening on lappa

sometimes like they used in the black

box black box the black box plug-in on

our yeast and that um I think that's

what Seth told me about once yeah cuz he

was talking he used to talk about that

plugin yeah but now I haven't used I

mean well it strikes me that you don't

let technology get in the way of what

you're dealing with well I I just

probably two years ago bought all my

plugins and they had um I couldn't

really I was like I need to become

legitimate I bought a new laptop I kept

my old like plug in laptop with Pro

Tools 10 on the side just in case

auto-tune five came back up or something

like that but and I was mostly just

using Wade and slate and like the basics

and then recently I got like the

acoustical plugins and fabfilter and I'm

downloading plug-in Alliance right now

because Doug's recording engineer uses a

lot of plug-in the lion stuff so I want

to make sure cuz that's what a lot of it

is now is maintaining the integrity of

the rough mix mm-hmm you know and then

it's really amazing process and it start

and that you get it and then you take it

to the next level I used to have the ego

or I delete everything no delete every

single plugin that wasn't auto-tune and

start over and we all did that back in

the day and yeah now you can't do that

now no you can't do it and it's selfish

really at the end of the day it's like

you're making the song about you and

it's not your song you're not the artist

you're just there to help but we

shouldn't miss the the point for the

audience that Alex was talking about

with with his success two years ago you

started updating software and then three

weeks ago you got in the system yeah so

a lot of the process has just been you

finding out how you do what you do and

making it work without all these other

things that people oftentimes your

audience think that they need to have a

point to move forward and that's just

not the case I was thinking about the

other day cuz somebody was asking me

what they should upgrade in their system

and they think they had like an Apollo 2

and in a laptop and you know you told

them their ears yeah I was like until

someone is buying your music don't

upgrade that absolutely because what you

need to fix is what you're doing on your

side

you know especially because if you can

get the cracked version or everything

while you're waiting you know until

you're making money don't innovate don't

like invest financially you don't really

need to right now it doesn't guarantee

that you're getting that investment back

and it's a different it's a different

world because I'm even from when I first

graduated and like started investing I

bought like a double O 3 and some HS 50s

and a 4 14 and the double O 3 didn't

sound good generally just sounded kind

of gray you know and I thought I was

doing something wrong and I thought I

needed to buy new gear

then I went to a studio with a double O

3 that was all I had for a while and

just made it work it has to work you

have an interface right yeah the old old

one yeah that's old yeah about like 2010

when I first started but now like you

have the the Apollo twin which sounds

amazing amazing I'm mixed on that for

most of my career like once I started to

be on the road I couldn't trust studio

I need to be able to work on the road

just bring that pot I still when I'm

here working

it's the Apollo twin into their system

and I'm fine what hit postage ease the

audio-technica empathise yeah great that

was actually a recommendation from my

assistant at dart and since then I

haven't change anything

still I still listen to those the when

you're on the road what he used to

reference do you bring those speakers or

do you just go in someplace and then

Aniston's are fine

got you and I I mean an Oxford sound

pretty much the same in LA in LA they

sound good in New York I don't like them

they're right I'd would be the

difference there's a sharp in New York

ooh ha because I got used to the 813

years when you but that's but your

regionality I think is interesting so

born New York went to Florida then full

sail then Atlanta now back to New York

does New York change your music

Sensibility New York of today I had from

from Atlanta to New York well part of

the reason I moved to New York was I was

trying to do things outside of music

because I was working on like coming up

with the pipe ass and the lectures and

doing other things maybe I want to be

closer to the labels to be you know work

on maybe consulting and do stuff like

that and that's why I moved to New York

because I'm more of a New York person a

tell a person so one or the other but

one thing I noticed in New York is

there's not the same environment of

creativity that there is in Atlanta

where like the studios are not opening

their doors to the young kids so that

they can get in there and really build

them and then what you're doing is

you're building a client base at the end

of the day but you're also helping

people you know I mean and that's kind

of what I want to do with my spot is

open it for an affordable rate that

these kids can get in and record and

I'll have my assistants trained up like

in the exact way that I record and like

yeah a big part of kids in school a big

part of what Rico is admirable about

what you do is there's a sense of the

importance of giving back with giving

back in a way that speaks to where

people live and there's actual as

opposed to here you know go to school

and come out and dad or do whatever the

custom be the the lecture series is

about getting to some specificity and

yeah anyway you need to learn

I think the podcast something we know a

lot about is something that that you're

doing to try to give back and share

information that's part of the driving

force mhm well I mean like the podcast

for me was I just saw a lot of like

these tutorials online that are so

definitive you know like every time you

need to do this you have to do so not

true that's not how it works in some a

lot of our podcast is just situational

like this is why we do this and this is

how we approach it from like an

engineer's thinking standpoint more than

anything else didn't like I don't even

say it's something that will help define

your sound it's just something that

might help you get to where you define

your own sound you know it's actually a

disservice I think what we've learned

after the number of years and four

hundred and fifty some odd episodes and

all these countries that you are doing a

disservice to people to define for them

specifically what they gonna do you want

to say here are options not only these

options but available to you you may

find your own options but be curious

push the envelope find your own way of

unlimited tools keep using your gut and

your instincts and your ears don't get

bound and then there's like the template

thing mmm where people ask me all the

time what's your tempo what's your vocal

chain how do you do this and it doesn't

matter right and I think I'm protecting

something right right so I did I did a

video a live stream video recently where

I just showed my entire setup I was like

here's how I do it from start to finish

I was like the plans to put both pieces

in there right yes but both pieces yeah

[Laughter]

and so I like went in there and I showed

everybody and a lot of people found

helpful actually

Kevi beats the producer who says that

that's his vocal that's like how he sets

up his session so it was from that and

that's how he like he actually recorded

thug and that's how they got in together

was he was around and thought yeah I'll

do it

amazing they've made a bunch of songs

together since and that was one of the

ways he got in you've had all these you

know an incredible series of highlights

in your career was the childish gambino

record was that another staff and the

Grammy and all that kind of stuff for I

mean more so than the Grammy was the

experience of working with his team

Zehra like they I mean they they out to

Hawaii for three weeks starting out

right and I was like okay cool that

doesn't happen for me

you know their studio there we built one

in the house over and it was me and

Riley his second main engineer who does

most of his recording and most of the

process was just like chopping it up

like me and him in the house like

talking everybody sharing ideas a bunch

of really good musicians like DJ dahi

was there and bunch of the producers

Ludwig was in his whole band and they

were just creative like working towards

a goal of making some really amazing

music and everybody is so nice and there

was no pressure of time cuz I miss never

have I pulled to everybody aside at

least once and I was like what's going

on so I was like this is so far right

cuz I would wake up you know whenever

some people would be working sometimes

they want to be we ordered a bunch of

like seven or three foam and wrapped it

ourselves outside and put it in like one

of the rooms and built a vocal booth

cool it was awesome Wow you're there for

three weeks

yeah and this is whales jumping out we

had the window it's a full view of the

North Shore climb it's like whales are

jumping every day and like eight

rainbows I got sick of rainbows

another rainbow another pot of gold damn

I think I'm gonna close the show I got

sick of rainbows I should be a that's me

a song time this would be Fargo tell me

about I'm real curious about this so

don't let me down and my teens watching

this yeah the Elton John Young High yeah

it has the the sample from Rocket Man

how'd that come about I think originally

he had met out and they had had like a

long conversation where they chopped it

up and shared ideologies or whatever it

took a real liking him as a person as an

artist and really liked his music like

his creativity and then thug did this

pseudo cover I believe of Rocket Man at

first and then he got the sign-off from

mountain to go take Rocket Man and make

his own song and Stelios the producer

got the sample from they are and made

the beat and then thug reported high and

then I got this on something you

actually got raw Elton John vocals they

were they slide like the effects on him

got you but still but still yeah I just

yeah that mix took me longer than over

over yeah but you know fixed that he had

they have any delays you hear the reverb

is so much reverb is such a pretty

reverb you know AMT 240 or I was

thinking I thought maybe lexicon at

first but might be oh yeah it was just

beautiful right interaction by yourself

or no mmm any interaction with Elton

himself

unfortunately now he said he loved the

mix which I was like that's incredible

that's just I mean yeah like that's

something to freak out about yeah I tend

to remember and to grow on is this

you know there's a certain point in time

that in the arc of a career where you

you know when you're trying and you know

it's starting to work you know you make

a living and you kind of know when you

got some heat and there's an opportunity

and it strikes me that as you recognize

that as you've been there for a while

you're now trying to make that

opportunity into things other than just

more Alex to may yet write something

that's lasting and where does that drive

come from from what you learn growing up

and what you think is missing for

today's generation or what I think a lot

of my drive comes from wanting to be

comfortable and not have that like in

engineering I'm always like if I don't

get a new job tomorrow I'm screwed yeah

and so I've been trying to like you know

build alternate streams that are still

creative because I don't want like a

passive like read you know what I mean I

don't want to build a studio and just

yeah be a landlord be a landlord I

didn't want that I want to foster this

kind of environment where we're doing

other creative things and building

together and also so it's not just like

oh I better mix another album tomorrow

you know and moving to New York didn't

help but that like where hey yeah no

pressure in New York you have to put

stuff up heads a little bit crazier but

you know where's the studio in New York

it's right next to the Empire State

Building oh hell yeah it's in midtown

Manhattan oh cool that's it little

single space blue unit is that a Maggie

cube yeah the master aq4 yeah I love

those yeah actually it's funny it is 4

a.m. yeah

are you done every minute so I have the

inner connection something going into

the log and I still haven't even used it

oh you gotta use them on I know

be gentle with it though cuz it's uh

it's it's a strong one powerful do you

mix your old records all the time

you said records out to other mixers do

you is it just

do you ever produce and sort of

co-create and then say I trust I suppose

I've done Co mixing a lot lately where

you're working with multiple artists

that don't trust like the London was a

co mix mmm the London was me Jareau and

cash who are Jarosz the tree Bell guy

and Cash's Travis's guy mm-hmm and all

of Travis's vocals go through cash now

all of Jake holds vocals go through gyro

and then all thoughts go to me and at no

one will budge on that obviously so I

mix a song it was approved and then Jake

holds I I want to have my guy touched it

I was like oh yeah totally honest I and

we were talking to us earlier I was like

I didn't want to get him away so I said

I don't want to freeze everything or

commit everything and then they then

they can undo it and they because you

want all the vocals to feel like they

came from the same place you don't want

this mix this mix and this mixed all

two-track vocals and just an EQ to kind

of make them cohesive so you know I'm

sure Jareau did his thing after I was

done and I went first yeah I did the

whole thing and then Travis wanted to

redo his vocals so he went into redid

his and then I went back to juror then

back to me and be sure to go first and

try to set the bar um not really

this is a weird I mean this is such a

weird mix situation that was I was just

along for the ride on that one but as

you do big or a bigger artist that that

situation may come up oh yeah more and

more um actually out and who's just on

the show meet him bro mixing some stuff

all cool right now she's like don't he's

a good dude yeah he's talented too so

good his vocal production 'once me knows

I love Spears one of my favorite he

cares well I did that in the complex my

Studios in oh yeah yeah man he never

slept I believe in never went home I

know the interesting thing like that I'm

over that part I sleep got to I'll fall

asleep anywhere now yeah I've developed

like light narcolepsy

there's so many pictures to be sleeping

in studios

in the chair oh you can remember shop I

have pictures of me in a barber shop

where I look like a corpse oh just out

laying flat and you know everybody's

laughing or wake up all the curls oh

that's me that's Lord as if you don't

it's not good for you yeah you talked

earlier about the future of music for

people that are out there as they

approach their career

do they need to move to a music scene do

they need to just focus on music what

advice would you tell somebody as they

prepare for their career in the audio

games education there's a lot of

different choices for this folks out

there

I think interning is that should always

be the first step I mean in a commercial

studio just for someone you respect for

some someone that makes the music that

you like and that you feel like like it

was like Ben Allen was that for me and

then Jason Kingsland who's actually on

the podcast that I do then was the

producer chase was the engineer and I

did that for almost two and a half years

working under the two of them primarily

and I just sat in the back of the room

with the pad and you know I when I did

this stuff were like you know we had

like we had to do mix preps and mix

recalls and that was my job and session

prep or you know set him up 40 50 mics

something like that there's full bands

so I got the technical knowledge but I

also got to sit behind them an ass and

the full philosophical questions and if

so important we lined up as far as like

our thought processes so when I asked my

question it actually helped me you know

when I watch how he would EQ the guitar

that oh that's how I would have done it

if I knew what the hell I was doing you

know that's what I was thinking but you

know he had a reason and so all those

questions kind of added up and then when

I left I took that kind of to the rap

world and that helped me tremendously

and I was ready you know I was ready to

sit in the chair I was ready to be

thrown into this situation whereas I

don't think I would have been just

straight out of school and you have to

be because even if you're just an intern

or just an assistant so you skip the

intern the

your first job is always the the day

that the engineer doesn't show up or

leaves early every time every time

absolutely and if you're not ready which

you the only way to get ready is by

watching someone and sitting in the

chair and you know you know getting the

training wheels kind of sessions which

you only get as an intern without that

you're really it's a crapshoot even

though you might be good you might stink

you might freak out I had I've had

interns cry in their first session like

chirp says all the time well not all the

time herb says the soft skills are the

most important in it and I really think

that's a hundred percent true the

technical skills are very given but the

soft skills the way you interact with

the clients the way you give them

confidence the way you execute their

wishes and stuff is that you have to

just watch somebody do it that's a pro

when everybody all the every clients

different so you have to foster the

creativity in a way that kind of I've

had clients for it the more you talk the

worse it goes absolute it that way and I

have that clients were if you're quiet

you ruin in this session if you don't if

you don't you know reinforce that that

performance and tell them that they're

doing a great job and that's the one

they're gonna be like oh we need to see

that again and you might lose the right

take whereas there's clients that if you

talk they're like well you've ruined it

yeah you thought don't talk when we're

recording so right you just have your

process where you go I mean it's fast

but like we'll talk after a BEC what do

you think but it won't joke well you

know you finish the song and it'll be

like two hours of jokes and then it's

another song you know but during the

process it's not a lot of like hey why

don't you try this yeah recently um and

it sounds like you know parental advice

or recently spoke to Ohio you students a

couple days ago and I was trying to get

them to understand that you know your

ability to

context and read the room and read

signals and social for you it's not

gonna come out of your phone you can't

be the head down society and do that hat

you have to be able to look at people

and talk to people and pick up what

works what doesn't work and not only

pick it up but be able to process it on

the fly and make it an opportunity for

you and more importantly don't make it a

problem for the client and you can only

do that by engaging or knowing not to

engage and it's it's harder now to to

you know to really understand that

question for you that you know our

Instagram fans are you have been on

demand for a while we've we missed each

other a couple times you've been very

flexible and thank you for coming out

yeah suddenly when and Dave you've had

this thing and I've been in this

situation too we are in a situation

where people trust you do you find that

sometimes they are leaning on you a

little bit like an A&R person

oh yeah but I mean like specifically

with thud I picked his beats for two

years mm-hmm 2030 2015 he'd be I got any

beats for me mmm you know and I didn't

want to disappoint so I wouldn't just

play all the beats I got I would go

through it be like okay these are pretty

this is how he's feeling today like

based on the first two I'd play you know

you kinda have like a tree of like if

yes then do this if no then do that and

I would have listened to 150 beats and

like if he hates this when I'm

definitely not fighting this right right

you know but if he likes this one then

we go this way if he hates this one we

go this way so then I had all the beats

from all the great producers too so you

know all of them are great we got to all

of them but it's just like if I played

the wrong one at the wrong time it might

have killed your entire session another

process that is they learn human

interaction thing yeah we were and we

were like best friends at the time years

around each other

I don't know 107 hours a week I don't

know who I'm around you know I mean it's

a lot of time to spend with someone you

know especially and then and maintain a

good relationship yeah that's that's

hard to do it seems like what we're

talking about is it's just old-fashioned

trust you know if you can get

and figure out a way and then sometimes

it just takes time and sometimes it just

takes being quiet yeah when you get the

trust of a client that's when you can

really the creativity good flows both

ways in a real good way but I think that

the I agree with you and I'm and I'd

probably overemphasize this but it's

trust that this is is shot through the

prism of communication like that it's

you know how the card okay we have to do

is how how to roll and it's something

that I think this generation they have a

number of different ways of

communicating and if you communicate

improperly you may cut off your career

before you even before you even know it

and it's important that you that you

know I think it's important for us and

say look up to us to emphasize what you

need to do and not because we're trying

to tell them something they need to know

it's key to the success yeah it's key to

what happened it's key to your

creativity it's not just you know like

this is these are fundamentals that have

never changed over the course of time

we've been doing well it was its

pensado's place but a way to communicate

the kind of lessons that used to get in

the studio and if you can't get into a

studio you can get here so if we don't

give you truth and conversation and not

just tech stuff it's it's not gonna

really matter I think that one thing I

had when I when I was a head engineer at

dark 70-something injured James there's

a forum studio over two and a half years

and you know people don't last more than

a week I'd like you're right

the cutoff is a week if they make it

past the first week they'll probably be

there at least a month and if they make

the first pass the first month I think

it'll be at least six months you know

usually but most people get a day you

know before they do something before

they stick their foot in our mouth or do

something weird and you know you can't

trust them now I had so I have some

intern stories but uh one thing I always

era is this err on the side of safety

like be quiet at first read the room

understand how people what people react

I've had interests that come in and they

try so hard and they try and get the

lingo down and they're trying to act

hard and I'm just like you that's not

that's not real that's not you and

everybody can see it well now just now

the second you leave the room they're

just gonna make fun of you and have your

first impression what would into you

hiring interns um I had like a notebook

with 70 questions and then on the next

page I had all the answers I wanted ooh

at first I wish I saw that notebook

because that's that's a classic piece

it's it's it was so important because if

they got like half of them I knew they'd

be okay but there are some kids that

just got it like Justin childs who was

my assistant and ended up he got a

plaque before I did mmm as my assistant

that dark he had been up recording a

rich homie Quan and mixing a bunch of

stuff he did a Tuesday by my covenant

like he did all that stuff then I'll

have my Conan EP he drove up which I

normally immediately write someone off

for he didn't tell me until after he

drove up from Florida that day to

interview who interviewed the next day

drove back to Florida got all his stuff

and drove back and was there but that

interview is like I think within a month

he was recording Wow Wow he was up one

night painting the outside of the studio

at like 2:00 a.m. I am just making

valuable yeah and if you're if you're an

intern they always go to the kitchen to

wash the dishes they hang around

reception and they pull out their

laptops in the lounge mm-hmm none of

what you're gonna get you anywhere I

mean the best I'm gonna do is and you

gotta wait you know sometimes you gotta

wait is to ask the engineer if you could

sit with them sit

just ask the engineer don't ask the

artist or anything don't know whether

it's okay with artists still know

everything in my system yeah and then if

you can sit in the room you know bring a

notebook bring a pad a notepad and then

everything you see that you might have a

question on write down right and then at

the end of the session a sec - don't ask

all of them cuz in you know everybody's

tired yeah don't be a pain in the ass

but like ask me a few questions and

that's what I did

I mean when I took over dark I was just

the

at first and I sat in with Elliott

Carter and Joe Fitz and a bunch of KY

and a bunch of like great engineers that

were defining the sound of Atlanta and I

was watching what they were doing and I

was just like well that's crazy I

wouldn't definitely do that like justice

all the mistakes that I would have made

my first session I didn't make this is

something that most people who are sat

to our left and who've been you know

successful over time and suppose before

they've all had the same answer so now

the pressures on you most marketers of

the internet question now it's a little

bit different but but I think that one

of the things that go along with

sustained success is sustained curiosity

and that you want to keep learning that

keep we agree I would say like I said it

in one interview back in the day I was

like comfort is the death of creativity

it's like you have to be uncomfortable

you have to be trying somebody new like

every couple like I try not to use the

same plugins all the time I try not to

do anything too often you know obviously

I know how certain things work you know

I know the SSL EQ I know the q10 and I

know the faith of the q3 really well I

know how they affect the song so if I

need to get to a certain point and I

need to save time yeah I'll go to those

right but if I got time I'll try

everything right right cuz you never

know absolutely I got a question for you

you were the Tackett DARP right but yet

you say you're not technical I mean

there's only a vocal light hundred

calories yeah yeah I mean when we went

in and we set the rooms up like that was

a little bit more tactical and like you

know a woofer would blow and I could

like rewire that in like 10 minutes like

one of them putt tip kind of went on

fire you know but it's to two wires got

screws

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like hot-swap in the whole computer oh

my god Alexes oh my god he's asked you

nothing whatever the right at CDF

there's one button all right batter's

box let's okay see that boy up and off

you go

all right reverb necessary snares loud

bass louder saturation necessary it

awaits loudest filters EQ filters

high-low pass less necessary vocal

compressor a lot delays a lot stereo

best light compression the cheapest

piece of gear you've used on a high

profile record probably Maya power Wow

expensive taste I mean you know for my

headphones but 150 yeah thanks man good

job good job

you did like a New Yorker cut to chase

get to it you know things that work and

don't have to be all over the map to

recreate it before we before we say

goodbye is is as you look into the

future his artist development part of

any interesting to finding artists

developing a huge one of the artists I

worked with last night she's amazing

talent mm-hmm and like I miss it I mean

I was artists development with the I was

artist development with Travis a little

bit like I mean they both had their

vision but I was there to help I was

there in the beginning of it even 21

savage like I feel like I'm not sure and

I worked really hard on savage mode to

like create a new sound yeah and that's

the most fun part of this that's

somebody I don't think I'll ever get

back to be honest because we were there

was no risk back in the day either now

if I mess up it's like it's costly right

yeah just he loved and I said no buddy

had expectation no we knew right who I

was

here right now it's fun there's no yeah

and doing research on you it was it it

seemed from reading it that that would

be a big part of I mean you were just at

seminal moments with artists who were

pushing the envelope and they're gonna

be around people who push the envelope

Jesse trust and and giving your give

back sort of sense a figure to A&R

honors development had to be a big part

of the house that they say more artist

development and mmm it's just like

sitting in the room why don't we try

this doesn't get this let's do something

weird you know especially because at the

beginning of someone's career they're a

little bit more yeah receptive to

someone else's input yeah whereas

towards the end if you're like what if

we got this quiet we did all this and we

you know remade every single sound

analog and you know why would we do that

this works yeah yeah absolutely and

that's that's like submit you don't get

in the beginning there's nothing worked

yeah I think that if anything I hope

this is correct there's a testament to

that is exemplified in your career about

being organic and you know trusting

yourself and trust in communication and

creating trust with our clients and and

the kind of humanity side of the music

is is important and and it's it's a gift

to the music business that somebody

who's like you has also been successful

doing that that tells other people like

it's really possible so good on you mate

as I say absolutely David she take us

long okay I'm talking about something

that might be a little hard to delineate

but I've told you a couple of times when

I was first learning how to engineer I

read that Bob clear mountain took 400

out of all his kick drums might've been

three hundred so for the next ten mixers

I automatically took it out of my mixers

and got fired for three of those mixes

they turned them down because they

didn't like the kick drum say there's

several cliches that are out there that

used to drive me crazy when I was

learning how to engineer one is trust

your ears you know like how did you do

that why man just trust your ear how did

you know I just trust your ears that

drove me crazy the other one that kind

of drives me crazy is

instead of giving you a fish teach you

how to fish it turns out all those

things are true and part of the

discussion today was about that and and

so there's a way to learn and I think

learning how to learn comes first and

then learning comes after that and

there's so much great information on the

internet but there's a lot that isn't

you have to look at the source if the

source has had some success there's a

bigger likelihood not 100 percent

there's a bigger likelihood you might

get some good information from them but

instead of trying to find that magic

magic formula or that magic frequency

that magic whatever it doesn't exist

the magic is either here or here and

it's your job to find it and get it to

come to a pair of speakers so just go to

this sounds better if it's honest place

yeah but I stifled my career trying to

chase the magic bullet and turns out

over the 15 years I was looking for it

it just kind of came naturally after

after all of that and like like Alex

said you know if you want to be great

and have greatness and have creativity

standing close to someone that has that

creativity and borrow a little bit of it

and make it your own and the world

doesn't need another me it doesn't need

another you you've got to find a lane

that's unique and if you think about

what we've talked about today with Alex

he found a unique spot so think about

those things and we'll see at the top

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you