Grant Williams: The Way I Work

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All right, today on The Way I Work, I'm joined by Grant Williams. Grant is someone who's not only spent more than three decades navigating the peaks and pitfalls of global finance, but he's also built one of the most

respected voices in the industry through a rare combination of insight, storytelling, and relentless curiosity.

Grant is an investor, interviewer, speaker, broadcaster, and the author of the widely read financial newsletter, Things That Make You Go Hmm.

Over the course of 30-plus years, he's lived and worked in several major financial centers, from London and Tokyo to New York and Sydney, giving him a front-row seat to the

world's most pivotal economic moments in that time, and a global perspective that few can match.

He's contributed hugely, perhaps more than anyone, to the opening up of thoughtful conversations about finance and investing to a much broader audience. And through his documentaries,

audience. And through his documentaries, presentations, and signature essays, whether it's on precious metals, monetary policy, or market madness, Grant has made a career of distilling

complexity into clarity, and doing it with style.

But today, we're not just here to talk markets, we're here to talk work. How

Grant structures his days, how he manages creativity while constantly on the move, what tools and habits he leans on, and how decades of travel have shaped his thinking and routines.

We'll also look ahead, how he's approaching the future, and what keeps him sharp in a world that never stops shifting.

Let's dive in.

So, Grant, thank you for joining us.

It's a pleasure to speak with you.

Daniel, thank you for being so patient.

We've We've been trying to do this for ages, and uh 100% my fault. It just kept slipping through the cracks. So, we're

here, and I'm looking forward to chatting with you.

Brilliant. Thank you. So, um now Grant, so I've been following you for a while, and I've heard I think I heard you say once that it was through a friend of the family that your interest in markets was first sparked back in the '80s. Would

you say that that was kind of a sliding doors moment that set you on the path that you took, or do you suspect that you would have followed a similar path anyway?

Uh you ask a great question, Daniel. I I

don't know, to be honest with you. It

wasn't as though I remember having, apart from wanting to play football for England, I don't think I I had any other great uh a great desire to do anything particular at that age. So, you know, in

some ways it was a sliding door moment cuz it set me on on that kind of path, but in others, it was it was just a kind of cute thing that happened to me and made me go, "Oh, that's interesting." You know, so so I

that's interesting." You know, so so I don't know. It's a really good question.

don't know. It's a really good question.

I think there were other sliding moment sliding doors moments in my career that I can that I can see took me down one path as opposed to

another. Um but that one I feel just

another. Um but that one I feel just kind of set me on a path that I've been on randomly ever since.

Okay. And you seem to be constantly on the road. Given how much you travel,

the road. Given how much you travel, how do you maintain any sort of routine, and and or have you learned to thrive without a routine?

Uh thrive's a bit strong. I've I've

learned to I've learned to survive without a routine. Um

you know, it's funny.

The older I get, the more I crave that routine. And so, I'm and I'm and I'm

routine. And so, I'm and I'm and I'm trying to be better at creating a routine. It's

been really difficult these last I really 10, 12 years I've I've been constantly on the road, you know, I mean, living out of the same suitcase for months at a time.

And that's been that's been difficult.

Um it didn't feel difficult at the time cuz you just get on with it, you know, I'm I'm of that generation where you just get on with it. And if you wake up feeling ill or sick or whatever, you've got a plane to catch, so you just get on

with it. So, um

with it. So, um so I I definitely think a routine is something I need and I'm and I'm working hard to kind of create one. It's a it's a work in

create one. It's a it's a work in progress at the moment, but I'm I'm I'm definitely taking steps to try and do it.

Mhm. And And do you have a typical work day maybe now?

Or does it vary a lot?

Uh I don't really have a typical work day.

I work every day. Um

uh I don't I don't have kind of days off, but my the work will be um will will be consistent. You know, I wake up in the morning, I'll I'll see what's going on in the world.

Um I do a lot of reading, which, you know, I consider part of my working. I

read an awful lot. So, that for me is is part of what I consider work. Um

and I'll, you know, I'll either be recording a podcast or I'll be thinking about what I'm going to write for the next month or making notes or researching or doing something. So, I so I it's very rare a day goes by when I do

no work, but I don't I don't sit down and um you know, turn everything off from 8:00 in the morning till noon and then 1:00 p.m. to

4:00 p.m. and then have a structured day like that. I've I've become pretty good

like that. I've I've become pretty good at knowing that when I have to work, I have to work. And so, everything else needs to

work. And so, everything else needs to to take second place. So, um you know, it's it's it's good. It works for me. I

I I I struggled at the beginning of kind of working for myself, working from home with with finding a way to to do that and make sure that I work. You know, I toyed with

the idea of getting an office um just so [clears throat] I had to get up and go somewhere to work, but but I'm fortunate that my mindset is such that

you know, I've got my I've got a desk in my living room and I just sit at it and I can work and it's not a it's not a problem. As long as I've got some music

problem. As long as I've got some music in the background, I I can sit for hours and work.

And are there any kind of tools, digital or analog, that are essential for you?

I mean, look, I'm I'm talking to you through a microphone and with some headphones on, so I need those to podcast. Um, you know, I need My office

podcast. Um, you know, I need My office is my computer or my laptop, depending on where I am, and I don't really need much more than that. Uh,

I just uh it it's a it's a it's a fantastic position to be in needing very little to work and I could as long as I've got internet, uh I can work from pretty much anywhere.

Mhm. Does it sometimes spill into weekends, Grant? And And if so, are you

weekends, Grant? And And if so, are you okay with that?

Look, it spills into every weekend and I and and I think when you work for yourself, you have to be okay with it.

You know, that's that's Look, look, I But at the same time, I could say I'm not working this weekend if I wanted to.

You know, the the choice is mine.

Or a Wednesday afternoon.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Uh

but I I I I I know when I have to work and so I work. And And you know, sometimes I'll be up and writing and I'm on a deadline, I'll sit up and write till 3:00, 4:00 in the morning uh if I'm in

the flow and it's, you know, that it's all coming together and then I'll go to bed and I'll wake up at 6:00 and I'll get back and do it again. And there'll

be other times when you know, I might I might wake up in the morning. Uh I mean, I try after I

morning. Uh I mean, I try after I publish on a Sunday, after I publish my note on a Sunday, I try and schedule very little for the Monday, so I have one quasi day off a week, but uh it it

really, really ever happens that I do nothing on a Monday.

Yeah, chance to recover a little bit.

Grant, I think you've addressed this already, partly at least, but you know, in a corporate setting, there are usually kind of systems and teams in place to ensure accountability and follow through. When you're working

follow through. When you're working independently, when you're working for yourself, you don't have those built-in checks and balances. So, um

yeah, are there any routines or structures that you've developed to keep yourself accountable, keep yourself on the straight and narrow?

Well, [sighs and gasps] uh it's a great question. What one I've never really given any thought to. You

know, I I I I am absolutely accountable to myself, you know, and I and I kind of like it that way. I know if I've not putting enough effort in, I know if I'm not working when I should. And um

and it's that self-accountability that that makes you say, "Look, come on. You

need You need to I know you want to go and watch the football or I know you want to go down the pub with your mates, but you need to get some work done."

Mhm.

Um and fine, if you want to go to the football, but you know you're going to be up until 2:00 in the morning to make up for the time you've given up. So, I I think, you know, if you have a if you have a decent work ethic and you have a

dedication to what it is you do and you take pride in what you do, especially when it's the kind of output that I do, which is going to be consumed by other people.

Yeah.

You know, if you have pride in that, you're always going to make sure that that what you put out is your best effort. And so,

effort. And so, yeah, I've never I've never I've never found myself ever having to try and give myself a talking to in the mirror and say, "Look, you know, you're not working hard enough." If anything, I probably

hard enough." If anything, I probably work too much and spend too much time working and not enough time on the kind of on the other half of the work-life balance, if I'm if I'm honest.

Yeah, no, same here. You know, we've been subscribers to Things That Make You Go Hmm since since the beginning, since you launched it. And um it's known for kind of weaving history and markets and storytelling together. So, do you have a

storytelling together. So, do you have a certain process that you follow when you're developing a new piece?

Uh not really. Not really. I I am over the last Well, we I first started publishing in 2009, I think it was.

So, almost 17 years now. I've I've been fortunate in that I've managed to cultivate the ability to write about anything that's interesting to me. You know, I I don't have to find

to me. You know, I I don't have to find something to write about the bond market every week where a lot of people do or the equity market or whatever their specialty is.

Mhm.

And and if you have that luxury, uh there's always something that's interesting. There's always something.

interesting. There's always something.

And so I my my process as it is is is things will occur to me when I I just published um my most recent letter last Sunday. So, I've got a month now until

Sunday. So, I've got a month now until my next one.

Right.

And I've already read a couple of articles, seen a couple of things that I've kind of put in my little folder for next month as as things that I might want to explore and write about.

Um once I once I know the subject that I'm going to write about, once I've decided on that, and I will generally decide on that yeah, anytime between 2 weeks and a week

before I actually sit down to write, which will be the the the week leading up to publication.

The the first thing I look for is a title. I try and find a title for the

title. I try and find a title for the piece cuz I think um once I've got that, once I've got a title, Mhm.

uh it it just I don't know, but it just for me personally, it helps me with a flow. It It gives me a sense of what I'm writing about and the

the the tone I want to create cuz I try I try to be probably too cute with some of my titles.

Um so, that's my first thing is is I I won't start writing until I know what the piece is going to be called.

Mhm.

And then once I do, I'll sit down and I'll I'll I'll have a vague outline, but I don't like to have a rigid outline structure because I

I think that that leaves little room for kind of exploration in between the the topics you want to cover. And what I find works better for

cover. And what I find works better for me is I go off on an exploration. I I I want to dig into a certain topic. I have a sense of what I why I want to talk about

it and and what I want to talk about, but I let my research guide me. And so I might go down one road and then find myself off on a tangent for another part that that I found

interesting and perhaps germane to the the subject I'm talking about. And then

it's a case of, you know, how do you bring it back to to the the original ethos behind the piece you started to write. But um

write. But um it's fun, you know, I've tried I've tried other ways of working. I've tried,

you know, people have suggested you should try this, try that.

I've tried all kinds of different ways and this is the one that that over time definitely works best for me.

Okay. And here's one. With the rise of AI, are you experimenting with that in your research or writing processes at the at all or are you more Yeah, obviously look, I have because

people have told me I have to.

So I So I've I've I've played around with it. Um

with it. Um I found it to be a useful tool in helping with some of the research. If

I want to know something a little better or dig into something, it's been a good starting point That's it.

for that. I've used it as a as a kind of inline proofreader to make suggestions as to how to improve some of the paragraphs, you know, if I've written a I'm writing a few paragraphs but

something I can't doesn't quite feel like I've landed what I'm trying to say.

Yeah.

I would run it through AI, but generally speaking um 99 times out of 100, what I get back just it just doesn't feel or sound right. It's not my voice. It's not

sound right. It's not my voice. It's not

the way I would approach something. So

for me, I I I have not found it particularly useful.

Um I certainly can't say that I would use it to write because it's it just there's no way it's going to write the same way I There's no way it's going to approach

the subject the way I approach them. And

so, you know, I I use it as a fairly blunt tool Yeah.

Um and and no more really.

All right.

You've got such an engaging interview style and you've interviewed some of the most thoughtful people in investing.

Are there any interviews or guests that really had a lasting impact on how you approach your own work?

Oh my god, so many.

Yeah.

So many. I mean um you know, I I I I would think with with my work on my own and my work at Real Vision, I've done well over 500 interviews now, probably close to 700 I

would And you know, it's trite to say I've learned something from each one, but I've learned in terms of question. I mean I've learned I've

question. I mean I've learned I've definitely learned something from each one with it from an informational perspective, but um No, I think I think um

I think I think so many people have have taught me things both about about myself in terms of what works when you're trying to get information out of people or trying

to engage with people. There are there are there are things that work and things that don't. But at the same time, everybody's different. So you you know,

everybody's different. So you you know, you you sit in a chair with with often times a complete stranger and you have to find a way to build a rapport with them instantly, you know?

And uh And I and I'd love to say I could I could give you three or four tricks to do that, but I but I I don't know what they are. I I really don't. I found that

they are. I I really don't. I found that process to be something that I am uh equipped to do, but it's not like I go through a mental checklist. I think

the one the one thing I would say which is a which is I don't know whether it's a cheat code or I don't know what it is, but but genuine curiosity Yes.

about the subject and the person.

Yeah.

There's no substitute for that. There's

there's none. You can you can't fake it.

I think if you really are curious about that person or the subject you're talking about or the information they have.

That goes a long way to to getting the best kind of um responses that you that you that are possible.

Yeah, for sure.

And um you know, the world today is as noisy and as uncertain as ever, maybe more so. Is there anything that's giving

more so. Is there anything that's giving you reason to be optimistic at the moment, either in markets or technology or something else?

Well, I think I think you this this is it's interesting because this is the first time in my life where there's a reason to be pessimistic about technology. You know, technology is an

technology. You know, technology is an is an incredibly optimistic thing.

Technology has been the the source of all human progress. This is the first time in my lifetime that I feel reasons to be pessimistic about technology. And you know, my

about technology. And you know, my reasons are no different to most people's reasons. You know, social media

people's reasons. You know, social media is a is a uh you know, a quickly growing cancer uh in in society, uh but there's no reversing it. Um VAR is another one. We

reversing it. Um VAR is another one. We

were talking about football before we started recording. VAR is another one,

started recording. VAR is another one, but but you know, seriously, the the there are there are plenty of parts of the technological piece of our lives today that I am

actually pessimistic on, not from a progress perspective, but from the perspective of the effect that it's having on on individuals and the collective. Um

collective. Um but I think I think the reason to be optimistic is is the same reason that there was reason to be optimistic at the depths of World War II or the depths of

World War I. Is that history will tell you that we will get through this. And and we will figure out the problems and and and

society will progress and it will it will fix the things that are wrong.

It may take time and right now there's so much chaos that it feels you know, days feel like weeks.

Um but every time mankind's been challenged in the ways we've we've we've been challenged now, societally, we've worked our way through them. It's not

always been pretty.

It's often taken longer than one would hope, and it's often involved conflict of some sort.

But, you know, on the other side of that is peace and prosperity and and you know increasing um

increasing benefits for society. We just

have to get from here to there. And then

if you're unlucky enough to be around during one of those periods, then, you know, it that's just the luck of the draw. If you were if you were born in the immediate aftermath of World War

II and you died in 2019, which is a a human life, you lived through arguably the best period of human history.

Yep.

Um get those dates slightly wrong and depending on your age, you know, you're going to have to go through some turmoil. That's just That's just the

turmoil. That's just That's just the luck of the draw.

Yeah.

All right, have you ever been curious about how someone else approaches their work, their their their routines, how they make decisions, how they organize their time? And if so, would you most

their time? And if so, would you most like to hear it in an interview like this one?

Uh yeah, look, I'm I'm there are plenty of people that I'm curious about their process. So, I you know, I think I think

process. So, I you know, I think I think anybody whose work you admire, you're always curious about how they do what they do.

Um you know, how much of it is a natural gift, how much of it is just hard work and repetition, how do they manage to do the things they do? You know, I I I think I have that

do? You know, I I I think I have that again that curiosity that's at work again about so many people whose work I follow.

And [clears throat] you know, I've been I've been fortunate enough to to sit and talk with many of them about that, you know. My my my great friend Remy Teta, who's um the man behind the Mad King and now the

Citadel. You know, he is an absolute

Citadel. You know, he is an absolute workhorse. His work ethic is

workhorse. His work ethic is extraordinary. And and what he gets done

extraordinary. And and what he gets done in the time when he's working just blows my mind over and over over over again.

You know, I can't work the way he does.

He works flat out Mhm.

for days and days and days and days on end. Um you know, like a mad scientist

end. Um you know, like a mad scientist in a lab. And he loves it. You know,

he's got such a passion for it and the results show. So, I you know, I've been

results show. So, I you know, I've been spending a lot time um working with Remi in recent months and uh you know, he's he's an extraordinary guy and his his process I find I find

fascinating. As as would you and your

fascinating. As as would you and your your viewers if you were if you if you talked to him.

Okay, perhaps we'll reach out to him. He

was behind the camera in the early days of Real Vision, wasn't he?

No, he wasn't behind the camera. He was

um he was he built the platform. Uh he

built the website, built the platform.

And uh he was in charge of all the technological side of the platform.

Um and uh yeah, I just just a just a a fantastic guy. Fantastic guy.

fantastic guy. Fantastic guy.

Well, Grant Mudge again, thank you for joining us. It's been really interesting

joining us. It's been really interesting to speak with you.

Daniel, it's my great pleasure. And I'm

sorry again it's taken so long for us to get this together. I'm I'm glad we figured it out in the end.

Thank you. Thanks very much, Grant.

Cheers. Bye-bye.

All right.

All right, that was another episode of The Way I Work. Thank you for listening.

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