Has Crypto Gone Cold? Wintermute CEO Explains  | Fortune Crypto Playbook

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discussing AI. People are discussing stocks. People are

discussing commodities. People don't discuss I don't know, great blockchain technology in any shape or form.

Hello and welcome back to Fortune's crypto playbook. I'm

finance and crypto editor Jeff John Roberts, and I'm Senior Reporter Leo Schwartz. We've got another lively show today. We're

going to kick it off with the return of cryptos figure, which is, of course, Sam bankman Fried, and we've got a couple scoops from Leo and me on dragonfly's new funding round and a new policy shop in DC. And then we're going to be speaking with the CEO and founder of winter mute, one of the leading figures in crypto who's got some very dark things say about the

industry. So that'll be rather interesting. We'll take it from

industry. So that'll be rather interesting. We'll take it from there. Okay? Leo Sam bankman, fried, he's back. What's going

there. Okay? Leo Sam bankman, fried, he's back. What's going

on? I mean, I never think there's that much more to say to him, or even to give oxygen to him. But the latest development is he's figured out someone who he can call from his prison phone and dictate tweets to, famously back in the trial at surface that SBF had come up with different strategies for how he could maybe get off of the charges of tanking FTX and

taking all of the investors money with it. One of those was doing a heel turn to being conservative and appealing basically to the Tucker Carlson's of the world. He's

very much doing that now. He's trying to appeal to Trump's pro crypto crusade and say, I was mistreated. I should get a pardon, and his Twitter has been filled with that recently. I

don't know if anyone's really taking it seriously, though, yeah. And I mean, I was actually reluctant to put this on the

yeah. And I mean, I was actually reluctant to put this on the show or acknowledge it at all. It's just there seems to be a lot of money behind this campaign. Whatever it is, it's this elaborate sort of sock puppet. Ask the turf campaign. I

mean, remember, he's in federal prison, so who is running all of this campaign and where's the money coming from? There's this

absolutely devastating Body Slam takedown of what's going on. I

guess his argument this time is like, look, I took a small stake and then throw a pick and I'm a genius, and everyone be made, right? It's all lies. Everything with him is always, always lies.

right? It's all lies. Everything with him is always, always lies.

But this really smart takedown. I look at my Twitter feed, you'll see it, and he just deconstructs it. But the part I like, too is he zeros in on Sam bankman Street's parents, who, like, amazingly, are still employed at Stanford Law School, you know. And this guy was like, this is cheaping my degree from

you know. And this guy was like, this is cheaping my degree from Stanford. And I think that's exactly right, because user

Stanford. And I think that's exactly right, because user campaigns aren't cheap. It's clearly a very skilled, you know, PR lobbyist and firm to be running a campaign of this scale. So who's paying for it? And is that coming from FTX

scale. So who's paying for it? And is that coming from FTX customer money? I think so. Anyways, same old Sam man freed.

customer money? I think so. Anyways, same old Sam man freed.

I don't think he's going to pardon even from this administration, but perhaps Leo, you can give Trump's pardon czar a call. Have you seen his pardons are I think I did see

a call. Have you seen his pardons are I think I did see that story. And I mean, here are the two charitable reads of the

that story. And I mean, here are the two charitable reads of the situation, one of which is that Trump has been giving pardons out to figures who probably should not be getting pardons, including ones accused of similar types of fraud. So it's

not out of the realm of possibility that SBF, who's going to be locked in jail for decades, says, why not give it a try and appeal to Trump's ego. The other, I mean, SPFs argument has always been the money was there and that he was investing it in smart ways. Let's, let's break this down. He did make a number of venture investments that have performed very well.

And I think people are looking at it and saying, Well, if he'd actually raised money from LPS in a traditional way, he could be one of the most successful VCs of all time, that's including stakes in anthropic as well as buying a minority stake in Robin Hood. But as we know, having covered this trial very carefully, the issue is that he was using money that he was not

allowed to use. He was using investor capital on FTX without their consent to make these investments. And obviously

that's illegal. It doesn't matter how well these investments did. It wasn't his money to invest. It's like, just

investments did. It wasn't his money to invest. It's like, just because you run, if you run someone over with your car and they recover, and, like, run a marathon, you don't get to take credit for the guy's marathon.

Then finally, and the Trump pardon campaign too. I mean, you know, whatever you think of Trump, he doesn't seem to like associate himself with losers. And I just think that, like Sam bankman, fried is just too, you know, he's just too slimy, even for the White House. So I'd be very surprised if this works. If

it does work, I guess I'm in trouble because his Sam's for shorter business program be coming after us.

That we'll see. Yeah, well, I think we can pivot now to talking about a successful investor in crypto. This is

dragonfly. Dragonfly is a crypto native VC, meaning that they only invest in blockchain, as opposed to a firm like Sequoia that dabbles in different industries. They've been around for a bunch of years. They've been around for a number of crypto downturns. They've always been very well regarded in

crypto downturns. They've always been very well regarded in crypto, but I think some of their bets are trying, are starting to make them break through more into a mainstream way. That includes early bets on Poly market, as well as rain,

way. That includes early bets on Poly market, as well as rain, which is a stable coin credit card company, essentially, as well as Athena, which is another stable Coin Company. And even

amid what one of their general partners, Rob haddock, told me was a mass extinction event among blockchain VCs, they've managed to raise a fourth fund, six, $50 million which is certainly impressive given the bear market that we're in. So it

was fun doing a profile of them, sort of going through the history of the firm, which has included plenty of rocky turns, including a breakup between the two founders of the firm, as well as notably, last year, the DOJ briefly said that they might consider criminal charges against one of their partners because of their role in tornado cash, which is the sort of infamous privacy protocol crypto mixer. Lots of fun details in

there, but it was a fun profile to work on. Yeah, I urge people to read the piece. I liked it too. And it seems their secret sauce is a bit of like the right Asia connections with the right amount of banking and quant stuff. They seem to sort of have it figured out. And it's nice to see someone doing well in the space right now, just before we move on, let's break down a

little bit about that. I like that quote about the crypto VC extinction event. So what did he mean by that? Why are crypto VCs

extinction event. So what did he mean by that? Why are crypto VCs going extinct? Yeah, so one of their partners, and I think what

going extinct? Yeah, so one of their partners, and I think what makes dragonfly notable, in a lot of ways, is that they have these four partners leading the firm who each have these different expertise areas. So one of them, named Tom Schmidt, who's sort of the defi whiz at the firm, basically said that we're going through the biggest meta shift in crypto, or the biggest paradigm shift with how VCs think about how to invest in

crypto, where a few years ago, there was all this hype around web three, or this idea that we're going to build all of these decentralized alternatives to the plumbing of the Internet, whether it was Spotify or Twitter, all of these projects would come with tokens, their own native tokens, and basically VCs would make their money by investing in the as of yet unlaunched tokens for these projects, and when they

launched, they would be able to trade them and make a lot of money from it. What we've seen instead is that web three vision never really played out. Instead, we're almost seeing this fintechification of crypto, where the most successful projects are the ones that are this intersection between crypto and Wall Street, stable coins, tokenization, etc. And in this instance, a lot of VCs are making their money by taking

traditional equity stakes. And I think what Rob who said the mass extinction quote meant was that this old playbook that crypto, crypto VCs had didn't really play out. Dragonfly was ahead of the curve. And realizing right now crypto is really a FinTech

the curve. And realizing right now crypto is really a FinTech play. It's not necessarily a web three play. Yeah, that's

play. It's not necessarily a web three play. Yeah, that's

interesting. Does seem the you know, the web three era is kind of cooked, but crypto always surprised us. We'll see. I know

Chris Dixon is pushing back on that. We'll see if it comes back. But I think for now, it's pretty fair commentary. In other

back. But I think for now, it's pretty fair commentary. In other

news, I got to speak with Jake cherinsky, who's, you know, within a certain nerdy DC policy circle is kind of a legend. He's

probably one of the top crypto lawyers, or the top crypto lawyer, and he's got a new nonprofit think tanky sort of thing, basically hyper liquid. The big trading platforms give him some money to do a defi policy shop in DC. You're,

you're closer to DC stuff than me, Leo, but I get the impression from a distance that it's sort of a little there's some stuff up for grabs. It feels that some of the traditional groups are less influential after losing their key leaders, and so maybe Jake is going to be the new big dog on this stuff. What's your take? I think DC has always been a bit too crowded with crypto policy shops, trade associations, just

by virtue of the fact of how much money there is sloshing around crypto, and there has always seemed to be a bit of a split between more of the centralized players the coin basis of the world, versus the ones who are really arguing for defi as the preeminent principles that policymakers

should be prioritizing. So you have had different firms trying to advance defi deals more. I think it makes sense now that a company like hyper liquid is one of the most successful in crypto, as well as this reality that market structure bills are moving along with potential threats to defi that we're seeing the defi crowd push back more. To be honest, I'm not

really sure what the current power dynamics are between different policy shops, but it'll be interesting to see what type of influence this one will have and what types of politicians they'll be able to win over, especially because I think it's hard for most politicians to even understand what crypto is, let alone decentralized lending protocols.

Although I think with the recent news of Blackrock men, I've heard Apollo too.

Is looking to plug into defi backends. I just think that it's a new frontier technology that is going to need a lot of explaining, and Jake will probably do a good job of that.

But you know, one thing at a time, we'll see what else do we have on the books. I mean, speaking of DC, I think one of the more interesting stories the new CFTC Chair, Mike Selig, who's long been a prominent crypto lawyer figure has really struck back on this issue of prediction markets. So the

biggest trend in prediction markets has been, obviously, the CFTC allowed these to happen under the Trump administration, after a big legal victory under the Biden administration. But a

bunch of states have been pushing back and saying, gaming is our remit. There shouldn't be these federally regulated prediction markets where 90% of their volume is essentially sports betting. The CFTC didn't really have a dog in the fight

sports betting. The CFTC didn't really have a dog in the fight until Mike Selig came out with an op ed in the Wall Street Journal over the weekend and said, No, this belongs to the CFTC. We're going to fight against states saying that this

CFTC. We're going to fight against states saying that this is not a federally regulated type of asset. So we're seeing the CFTC really take a stance in this fight for the first time.

It'll be really interesting to see what happens with that. I

mean, I don't really care so much as a free country, if you're going to bet, you're going to bet, but I find it, the lawyer in me finds it obnoxious that they're trying to claim that prediction market sports betting is not gambling. I mean,

give me a break. You know, were you the one saying that someone's trying to parse the distinction between betting and gambling? Yeah. So a story that we had this week also was

gambling? Yeah. So a story that we had this week also was another prediction market. This one's called novig, and it's, it's focused only on sports. So whereas Cal, she and poly market say we're doing event contracts for all sorts of different things, whether it's the weather tomorrow or who's going to win, you know, a state election, this company is saying we're only doing sports. And, I mean, the founder was saying to me,

doing sports. And, I mean, the founder was saying to me, somewhat hilariously, that, you know, betting and gambling have a different distinction. I don't know if this is a real argument, but basically what's notable is even the CFTC is saying, we think that there's a real utility with these types of contracts, even if it's just essentially betting on the outcome of sports games. Although, notably, if you read

the Wall Street Journal editorial, see like doesn't mention sports a single time, even though that's what the vast majority of the volume is. These days, it's gonna be interesting too, if, because I think the legal proposition is like a jump ball at best. I think it's hard, you know. I think the law does say that. You know, sports is a matter for the states, so if

say that. You know, sports is a matter for the states, so if they lose that, what's that due to the revenue and stuff? But

obviously, there's a lot of legal firepower pushing the other way. And anyways, before we we cut to the Evgeny

other way. And anyways, before we we cut to the Evgeny interview, you know, we're speaking to him, of course, to get about his tweet where he was sort of as a vibe, saying and per conversation in the last episode of What's the mood with the crypto market right now? Why is everyone so down? And the

markets, you know, lately, just sort of seem to be scuffling along. They haven't gotten that much worse, but nor have they

along. They haven't gotten that much worse, but nor have they got much better. So what are you seeing out there in terms of, like market narrative? Bitcoin has always been the leading indicator. It's been stuck below 70k for weeks now. I think in

indicator. It's been stuck below 70k for weeks now. I think in general, altcoins have been doing badly. There's not a lot of retail interest. In general, vibes are just not that great. I

think, as we've talked about, a lot of this is just around hype with AI. But what I think is interesting about evgeny's take

with AI. But what I think is interesting about evgeny's take on this, and we'll get into this, obviously, in the interview is he is the head of one of the most preeminent trading firms in crypto. They really supply the infrastructure for how a lot of trading is possible across the crypto industry. And for him to basically come out and say,

industry. And for him to basically come out and say, look, we've abandoned the ideals of what made crypto, crypto, I think, is pretty notable. So I'm excited to chat with him. Yeah,

well, I mean, let's find out what he has to say, and we can, we can break it down on the other side.

Again, he thanks so much for joining us here today. Very

excited to chat with you. Thanks for having me. The reason that I wanted to invite you on is you had a thread on Twitter at the beginning of February that I think might have taken some people by surprise in the world of crypto. Of course, your handle on Twitter is wishful cynic, and I think it was a little more cynical than maybe people would have imagined from

one of the top figures in crypto. But maybe you can just talk about where your thoughts are at regarding general sentiment with with where crypto is right now. Yeah, no, look, it's interesting because, like, what shifted, I think this cycle is, and I think it's related to a lot of like aI slope that we've seen from some of the popular crypto protocols in space, like a lot of conversations shifted in the

general chats, like on Telegram, especially and beyond. And the

vibe that I got from those charts over the last few months has been pretty sad. Like, people are discussing AI. People

are discussing stocks. People are discussing commodities.

People don't discuss great blockchain technology in any shape or form, like it's just out of conversation. And people

are, I think, on one hand, very tired of price action. There was

this great promise last year when the election happened and.

Uh, like people thought, Okay, now we have everything, but now, basically, we got the pro crypto president, we got very friendly regulators on the US side. Like, everything works and institutions are coming and, like, buying stuff and playing with stuff, but it's not reflected on in price action on one hand and on the other hand, it also feels like there isn't really nothing to look forward to at all so like, there is no

more experimentation that we see. And that thread was kind of me trying to reflect on, like, yeah, what the vibes are, I guess, and we're going to unpack this. But I think it gets to this core debate that I always think about while covering crypto, which is this sort of inherent tension you see with the industry, between this idea of number go up, where really

what most people care about in crypto is what the price of Bitcoin is, or what the price of name your coin is, versus the actual technology, or the principles of the technology.

And the movement that started with Bitcoin, this idea of having a decentralized currency, or decentralized financial system, in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis where banks and governments weren't in charge of it, it's always hard to tell which side is coming out above and right now, I think what was striking about your threat is, obviously, you're one of the leading technologists in crypto with your firm, winter mute,

which is a provides a lot of the infrastructure for trading, but I think it was a bit surprising to see you come out so cynically with where we're at now, maybe driven by the fact that Bitcoin prices are as low as we've seen them in a year. There isn't that much exciting technology coming out, besides some more niche financial applications. I don't know if you would call stable

financial applications. I don't know if you would call stable coins niche, but I mean, where do you think we are in that that tension between number go up versus this principles, idea of the where the cipher punk origination of crypto? Yeah, so

the business disconnect started already a year ago, pretty much like basically when Trump is discussing our strategic Bitcoin reserve, when we see basically everyone cheering on, institutions buying Bitcoin. When they're cheering on, I don't know, just Treasury companies, for example, buying Bitcoin. It's, it definitely goes against core principle of

Bitcoin. It's, it definitely goes against core principle of why Bitcoin was started in the first place, right? It's like it was supposed to be Sovereign Money going against the government. And instead, we are like, cheering up on basically

government. And instead, we are like, cheering up on basically the same world order that was we were supposed to be against, to basically buy our backs. So, like, that's big inherent contradiction. Like, I felt it for a few years because, like,

contradiction. Like, I felt it for a few years because, like, it's important to mention there is a venture mid side of it, and there is my personal side of it. So venture mid side of it is we have shareholders. Like, I'm a shareholder. I'm not the only

have shareholders. Like, I'm a shareholder. I'm not the only shareholder. And as a business, we need to be prepared for

shareholder. And as a business, we need to be prepared for multiple futures. So, like, there is one future where

multiple futures. So, like, there is one future where basically tradifying Crypto merges, and basically, I don't know, there's no source niche or not so niche technology making it into thread fire like, so maybe stable coins will replace bank payments. Maybe hyper liquid becomes like the way we

bank payments. Maybe hyper liquid becomes like the way we transact, like financial derivatives, for example. It's

all possible, but like the way it's currently heading into, like, there is nothing Cypherpunk about it is just basically heading into this, like merger. And they're

building like on the internet level. They're building over that. We are integrating threat track changes. We integrate in

that. We are integrating threat track changes. We integrate in everything fun and interesting and trading that happens in defi. They're kind of like, ready for that scenario. Like,

defi. They're kind of like, ready for that scenario. Like,

there is another scenario where crypto completely dies and everything, just like, goes back to train on Simi. They're

building towards that as well. It would be like sad, but like, much more pure battle for us as a company, because, like, we would need to integrate a lot more than we currently do, but we are preparing for that as well. And then there is this future where everything starts training on defi, and, like, everyone forgets about ml, KYC policies. Whenever everything

just becomes like free, they're preparing for it, for it as well. I think they would be one of the best prepared companies

well. I think they would be one of the best prepared companies in the world for that particular future. But I think it's also very unrealistic, like given that most of the bigger governments don't want to give up on KYC ml requirements, the most governments don't want to give up on regulating those basically financial products. So it's encrypted like anything else. So it's quite unrealistic, unfortunately, and then there

else. So it's quite unrealistic, unfortunately, and then there is, like this scenario where basically tradfi and crypto sort of like coexist together, like basically, in some of those, I don't know, suburban novels, like parallel economy, almost.

So to me, that's like the most realistic positive scenario for which we are also ready on the internet side, but it's like, for me personally, is that would be the most interesting scenario where we actually where this, like call blockchain innovation was not for NASA, and basically gives us freedom to exist into this parallel system, which cannot be touched by governments, cannot be touched by corporates, and then this

cannot be touched part is.

Basically established by technology. It's basically

technology blocking anyone from affecting it's basically like purely decentralized, permissionless, and nobody can affect it. My issue with like, current state of crypto is, like

affect it. My issue with like, current state of crypto is, like everyone kind of, like, abandons this. Like, lost us. Everyone is

cheering for this merger of try to find defied one. But like,

nobody understands that, it will basically just cancel out the Cypherpunk dream altogether. So I want to come back to this idea. I mean, how you balance being both the CEO of one of the

idea. I mean, how you balance being both the CEO of one of the more prominent crypto firms with this pessimism that you hold for the future of the industry? But I do want to unpack a few of the points that you made in that thread. I mean, the first one is, you said the debate between different blockchains like Ethereum and Solana is almost not material, because nothing's really happening on those chains. I mean, can you just

explain a bit what that means? I cannot. I don't think any of those chains won by default. Because, okay, you still have. I

think most TVL on the Syrian like, in terms of just, like dollars being there, like, a lot of it is just, like stock moneys that are not moving anyway. A lot of this is just experiments by corporates to just, like, have those, and people are quite overestimate those, like pilots, basically by car price, to put some bonds on blockchain or put some cash markets on blockchain.

And yes, like, it happens in Ethereum or on, like Sam, all tools, but it's still, like, it's tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of economic activities that happens in dred fi and like, what we see on Solana is actually technology definitely works. Like I do remember years when Solana would just, like,

works. Like I do remember years when Solana would just, like, turn off and would need to be, like, turned on again. Like,

that doesn't happen. And I think this, like, if there is one single good thing out of this, like meme coin, money and Solana is, it's basically like showing that the blockchain actually works and it can process a massive amount of transactions.

But what's also true is that there is nothing, like really meaningful happening that, like, Okay, people are trading name coin. Still, people are like, there is a like, really big

coin. Still, people are like, there is a like, really big trend of, like, Solana against USDC. But that's pretty much it like there is nothing else going on. So it became like a market for Solana and name coins, great, but like, there is nothing. There are new like, no new depths. There are no new

nothing. There are new like, no new depths. There are no new like, I don't know big exchanges happening there. It's kind of like, stuck and waiting for like, this new thing to happen because of that. Like, I really don't feel like anyone won yet.

Like, I really think it's totally feasible that there can be, like, new blockchain with new cohort of believers behind it, popping up next year, for example, and taking the world based on like it's it's totally possible, because nobody has this like mode yet. Maybe Syrian had it like a few years ago. But

now it's like, we can deploy an Ethereum we can deploy in Solana. But if you have, like, a killer app, or killer DEP, or

Solana. But if you have, like, a killer app, or killer DEP, or whatever like, it can happen anywhere. I think at this at this stage, you also essentially describe stable coins as as a niche win, which, again, I think it's the probably the use case, or the technology that people in crypto celebrate the most as finally being a way for crypto to sort of break out of this

blockchain echo chamber. But would you disagree with that?

Well, I have two philosophical problems with that. Like, first,

it's basically, well, stable coins is inherently centralized thing, right? So, okay, we basically replacing banking

thing, right? So, okay, we basically replacing banking rails with stable coin issue rails. That's very good and efficient. Like, it's basically potentially better product for

efficient. Like, it's basically potentially better product for end user. Like, I absolutely hate transferring money using

end user. Like, I absolutely hate transferring money using banks, like, every time I need to transfer some, like, significant amount of money, I need to, like, send an email or call my bank or send an email and call my bank, and it's just massive pain, and then it arrives, like, the next day, it's, it's just really, really inconvenient, while the stable coins are obviously much better, but at the end of the day is

just okay. It makes my life easier. So it's like, it's

just okay. It makes my life easier. So it's like, it's better for consumers, but it doesn't change the status quo at any in any way. Like, it's still a centralized system. Is there?

You still have those centralized entities behind it, like circular Tesla or any other like big, centralized stable coin issue. They can freeze the accounts. They can like,

issue. They can freeze the accounts. They can like, blacklist your accounts. I can, like, basically restrict you from doing something and like, nothing stops the system from being as restrictive as a banking system. In future, if, like, more rules and regulations

banking system. In future, if, like, more rules and regulations are put into place around this. Currently, it's currently, it's, like, pretty rare for account to be blacklisted, like, you need to be really, like, related to something really, really legal.

But there is, there is nothing really stopping, like, courts in us from, like, being more prescriptive on, like, what to freeze going forward if there is a precedent, and then that's like, one philosophical issue that we are not really.

Achieving anything like cipher punky. About this is just replacing one set of intermediaries with another one.

I'll make more efficient. And the second philosophical issue is, like, we actually keep in imposing the dollar regime on the rest of the world in the third and biggest state, which is also, like, not very cipher punky, like we were supposed to, like, build something parallel to dollar, but now we actually imposing dollar on the rest of the world, even in even, like,

bigger way. A lot of us, based people are cheering for this.

bigger way. A lot of us, based people are cheering for this.

Have a very libertarian upbringing in general. Like, I

went to, like, the most libertarian University in Russia. So, like, I'm still very libertarian. Like, I think it's

Russia. So, like, I'm still very libertarian. Like, I think it's like the best. I don't personal freedom philosophy and everything generally. Like, I'm much more libertarian than

everything generally. Like, I'm much more libertarian than anything else. But I think cheering up for dollar to take

anything else. But I think cheering up for dollar to take over the world and cheering around for this, like, empire building is, yeah, again, like, not very cipher punky of us. And

I really don't understand, like, my counterparts and like crypto industry, who are who see it as an additional beneficial center, saying it's definitely not beneficial for us, like if we actually continue pursuing the same ideals as we were, like 510, years ago. So as you said, you have this tension you have to deal with where, obviously, you have your philosophical ideals, what crypto industry should be, but you're also the

head of one of the biggest and most important companies in crypto, with shareholders, with the need to be generating profits. I mean, how do you hold those two contradictions

profits. I mean, how do you hold those two contradictions together? If you're so pessimistic about where the

together? If you're so pessimistic about where the industry is and where it's headed with having to lead this business, do you basically just think, Oh, well, as long as we're making money off this reality, that's fine. So the way I approach it is, is we are not trying to bet on one single, same to succeed, like I mentioned before. We are

building for multiple futures, for multiple possible futures, like we just have to do it. But we also not trying to influence those futures too much, like we basically, we basically, we are not putting all our effort into one particular blockchain. We

are not back in one particular centralized exchange or one particular DAX, like we actually work with everyone, and that basically how, I guess, resolve this contradiction inside of me, because we are trying to make as decentralized, as diverse world as possible, this idea is that wintry mood will be, hopefully, is one thing that glues it all together, like causes like

centralized exchanges and decentralized exchanges and different blockchains, whether they're corporate blockchains or not, I don't believe there is, like a purely blockchain world possible, like, we'll always have this, like mid space, right? So we will arrive at the point where we should arrive at

right? So we will arrive at the point where we should arrive at the point where there will be blockchains and like thread fi coexisting together, and we, like my goal is for the Internet to have to move like bits and hopefully like physical stuff as well, throughout those systems, basically. And then that's how I kind of make peace with myself. Like, trying to build the most

decentralized role possible, because decentralized doesn't mean that diversity runs on blockchain. Decentralized means

also that they have multiple countries, multiple corporations, multiple like producers of different things, and that's what we are kind of like, trying to work towards too. You did end the thread on a somewhat optimistic note, saying

too. You did end the thread on a somewhat optimistic note, saying that if I interpret it correctly, you do think there can be some recovery from this, but I guess where I'm confused is that would seem to mean everything that's contributed to bitcoins recent success being washed out, be it the Trumps or a lot of these tradfi institutions, banks coming into

it to be able To recapture those Cypherpunk ideals. If that were to happen, it seems like you'd see another inevitable crash, which I imagine would be overall bad for your business. I

wouldn't say like, I think there will be another crash. Like I

said, it's possible that you'll see more correction, but I think there's if things like my expectation with the correction would come more on the back of basic transfer markets crashing potentially, because, like, AI is, like, overblown currently, why I'm generally, like, philosophically optimistic, apart from, like, me being visual cynic. So I have to be visual as well, not just cynical. It's basically like,

where the pendulum swings currently. It's just like, I also said, like this cyberpunk against cyberpunk, but like, if you go towards like this proper cyberpunk world, this is a world where, like, everything is centralized, everything is ruled by corporations and maybe governments. But like more corporations, I think we will see more and more demand, like

we had it, like few years ago, like we had it was like tracker protests and basically all those like crazy laws that European Union is imposing, like people started to feel that, yes, there is this benefit of having decentralized systems that parallel to existing systems. I do feel that like the more governments are trying to squeeze everywhere.

Globally, the more people will realize, okay, we actually need this parallel systems, because otherwise, like, there is not like, there has to be a return for us to exist. Basically,

there has to be alternative for us to transact and exchange value. And basically, yeah, almost like crazy, like parallel

value. And basically, yeah, almost like crazy, like parallel states or tribes. So basically, my bet is, like, this pendulum will swing back again where people realize there is a benefit to this crazy blockchain stuff, and it's not just like them coins. That's what makes me generally optimistic. Because,

them coins. That's what makes me generally optimistic. Because,

like, I do believe in this swings from one side to another.

Like, basically world never stays on one extreme for too long. Well, I guess that's a somewhat hopeful note to end it

long. Well, I guess that's a somewhat hopeful note to end it on Evgeny, thanks so much for joining us today. Thanks for

having me. Interesting interview there. Leah, what struck you most about

me. Interesting interview there. Leah, what struck you most about what Evgeny had to say? So listen, I think I've always been more cynical than you have about crypto, not necessarily about the principles of the movement. And I think that's what's really interesting about what he said, which is essentially, there's always been this tension in crypto between number go up, or this idea that people only really care about the

speculative side of it, versus the Cypherpunk movement that created it, this idea of having a decentralized currency and financial system in opposition to Wall Street in government control. And Evgeny very much comes from this Cypherpunk side

control. And Evgeny very much comes from this Cypherpunk side of the argument, and says number go up has completely subsumed where crypto is. We've lost sight of those principles, and we're essentially in a pretty bad spot right now. And I think for someone with such a financial stake in crypto to come out and say that is fairly Stark. Yeah. I mean, I was wondering when people take positions like this, whether

there might be sort of some other, you know, ulterior motive, or there's something game, or, you know, it's rare to kind of get an executive with a lot of money at stake, sort of speaking hard truths like this, unless they have some other agenda. But in terms of the point of, you know, yeah, I do

agenda. But in terms of the point of, you know, yeah, I do miss the early days of Bitcoin. There really was, and, you know, you go meet old time Bitcoiners, they still are really committed to decentralization. There really is this sort of

to decentralization. There really is this sort of ideological belief to the whole thing. But, you know, that has been largely subsumed. But you could say the same thing about the internet, to be fair. I mean, I remember, in the early days of, you know, of the of the web, I'm old enough to remember that it was like, you know, the the internet treats censorship

as a for as a form of bug and roots around it. There really

was a lot of idealism. And, you know, early lift serve nearly Internet, and then we got, like, the injurification of the internet, as someone put it. And I think that's just sort of maybe the arc of technology generally. But then things, you know, branch and swing. You don't know what's going to happen next. So yeah, it certainly was a pessimistic

happen next. So yeah, it certainly was a pessimistic take. But I'm also, you know, not really one for Pearl

take. But I'm also, you know, not really one for Pearl clutching and things like that. I'm sure. You know, crypto is just 100 times the size. And so I think that in itself, is a triumph. And yeah, if it's sort of lost its soul a bit, I mean,

triumph. And yeah, if it's sort of lost its soul a bit, I mean, there's just you can go buy a new one, I suppose. Well, I

mean, I would argue it's depressing with the internet, you had this idea in the early days that it could be this more democratized platform where anybody could share ideas, and instead, what we have is a few companies essentially controlling the entire Internet. I think a similar thing is happening with crypto. And I mean, even more surprising, I think what he talked about is basically giving rise to this

idea that a lot of people have been seeing, which is that this argument about which blockchain is going to win out is sort of moot, because there's nothing really happening on all any of them, including salon and Ethereum of note, and potentially even more importantly, what he said about stable coins, which have certainly been the breakout use case in crypto over the past couple years, is in his mind, in this libertarian argument, stable coins really are

antithesis, antithetical to The Cypherpunk ideas of crypto, which is basically not allowing, you know, one type of currency, to control the world, in this case, the dollar, and not really having it be done in concert with governments that have censorship capabilities. So it was refreshing to have a real

censorship capabilities. So it was refreshing to have a real cipher punk mentality to what's happening in crypto now. But as

you said, Certainly he has his own motivation. In this case, winter mute can build for whatever future happens. So

maybe he has less of a dog in the fight. Yeah. I mean, I do, like the you know, PR reminder, what are we even doing here?

Because crypto was supposed to be more about more than that.

And seeing here, you know, begging to cooperate with the government for bigger stable coin. You know, regulation is certainly not what Satoshi and his white paper was all about.

So I do think it's good. There's people that kept getting on the scene to keep you know everyone else honest. But you know, crypto always changes. This time next year, we'll see where we're at. Who knows, maybe we'll be back to a site for punk

at. Who knows, maybe we'll be back to a site for punk existence. But anyways, I think that's all I got today, Leo,

existence. But anyways, I think that's all I got today, Leo, anything else from you? That's it from my end. Okay, this has been the fortune crypto playbook. I'm Jeff John Roberts and I'm Leo Schwartz, see you next time.