How ACRONYM Changed Design: An Hour with Errolson Hugh

Do you think that

the world is out to get you?

>> I love how you started this. I'm going

to say yes. Yeah, I'm going to say yes

to that because

>> um I think I realized that

>> especially more recently when it's

become sort of apparent that we live in

a hostile world

>> to everyone sort of on a global scale.

>> Yes. Yes. Um, but I also think

I I thought about, you know, why do I do

what I do?

>> And I think a lot of that comes from

growing up, where I grew up, being out

of place, you know, uh, immigrant

family, racism, structural inequality,

all these things, and not having the

feeling like I'm from here, I belong

here.

>> Yeah.

>> Parents are from Jamaica and uh, but

they're both Chinese. Chinese Jamaican.

>> They were born in Jamaica.

>> Yep. uh only my grandmother on my mom's

side spoke any Chinese

>> right

>> and uh yeah and then they moved uh to

Canada to go to university.

>> I was born in Canada

>> right

>> and uh grew up in

the western part of the country

primarily in a place called Edmonton

which is middle of nowhere. My parents

were both architects,

>> right?

>> And

>> but they met in architecture school, I

imagine.

>> Uh they met before that and then went to

school.

>> So my mom was an interior architect and

my dad was an architect architect.

>> Uhhuh.

>> And had their own practice and so got to

see firsthand their sort of struggles

existing as creative people and like

running a business and all that stuff.

>> Um but yeah, but growing up there, I

felt very alienated a lot of the time.

>> What's the population like? which is

what? White Canadians.

>> Yeah.

>> Right.

>> Yeah.

>> There's there's one black kid at the

high school and two Vietnamese kids and

me.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh, you know, that's that's about it.

Yeah.

>> And then you felt like

>> Well, I just, you know, not that I

didn't have friends and whatever, but I

definitely didn't uh

>> I was clear I was not from there and uh

>> to various degrees depending on what was

going on in the day, right? from like

fighting in the schoolyard to,

>> you know, just being like, you know,

>> ignored in certain situations, right?

>> Yeah.

>> And um so I think most of my design

stems from that fundamental sort of

using design to sort of adjust for that

uphill sort of tilt that my life

appeared to me to be on. And um yeah, so

trying to make sure things so I always

say, you know, we try to make clothes

that that you don't have to take care of

that take care of you.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah. And that's kind of the I guess

looking back is I'm going to guess

that's where that came from from that.

I'd say most of the media that actually

reached me and pre- internet remote

Canada

>> would have been, you know, or the things

that interested me was science fiction,

right?

>> Yeah. science fiction films

>> totally

>> um which is not runway fashion, you

know, it's and that obviously comes

built in with narratives and extremes

and situations and all of that. So

there's definitely part of that. It's

definitely, you know, there's some

cosplay elements to acronym for sure.

>> Yeah, for sure. Right. But I think

that's what makes it compelling as well.

>> Yeah, it's it's fun. It's fun to dress

up and be like, yo, I'm ready for

whatever.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> So there's I'm sure there's parts of

that as well. Yeah. But you've been that

outsider feeling. You didn't really make

that easier for yourself, right? Because

you've then moved to Berlin where you're

again.

>> Yeah,

>> you're an outsider.

>> So, which brings about like why did you

move to Berlin? Why did you choose to

still do that when you could have, you

know, moved to

I guess moving to Jamaica wouldn't

wouldn't wouldn't

>> probably wouldn't have helped either.

>> Not for the not for the fashion part.

Um, I mean, you know, the dumbest story

is is the same story as everyone else

has. Met a girl.

>> Yes. Yeah.

>> To Berlin.

>> Seemed like a good idea to talk.

>> Like, let's go.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, but yeah, I I say that to people who

people who've known me for years are

always like I've stopped saying it

because I say it all the time. I've

never really lived anywhere that I like

100% chose just because I like it. I've

always lived places because that's where

the job was or that's where the

opportunity was or I can stay with them

or I could do this.

>> Yeah.

>> And that's it. It's just that's just how

it's gone. You know, for good or bad.

>> I think it's for good.

>> Yeah.

>> My feeling is that I don't think there

is a good

>> I don't think there's a place for

everyone. I think you have to it

requires some effort from yourself to

make Yes.

>> something feel

>> Yeah.

>> home like Well, I'm hoping so anyway

because I haven't really felt like home

anywhere myself too.

So I mean when I came here um to Germany

in particular I met Michaela who's a

co-founder and still co-owner of Acronym

>> um she's from Munich and uh but left

when she was a teenager

>> and went to went to Canada with her

family and um

and she also isn't a typical like German

person because she grew up you know half

of her life she grew up outside in

Canada And uh but when she came back,

you know, it's like we went to the

bakery around the corner from her

family's house.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and her grandmother also went to that

same bakery, you know, and that bakery

had been there longer than Canada, you

know.

>> Yes.

>> And their whole family, that clan, like

centered around that house. And they're

still, you know, the family is still

there, right? They're still parts of the

family, right? And uh so there's a very

concrete understanding for her of like

this is home. It's right here at this

block at this address at this floor of

this building. Like it's there and

there's no nothing is going to I mean I

don't think is ever going to change that

you know.

>> I find it hard to understand like my my

family has moved every generation pretty

much.

>> There you go. Yeah. Same.

>> Yeah. And we'll continue to as well.

>> Probably.

>> Yeah. We're both talking about moving

again.

>> Yeah. That's right. That's right. you

know, we're going to move somewhere

where where we're

>> but I think I mean that definitely

informs everything about who I am and

what I do and uh I explain to people

like because you're always on the the

edges is where you know the interesting

things happen you know and when you're

constantly moving through cultures

situations

where you don't fit in you kind of

naturally find those edges and

sometimes that helps me anyway at least

I like I think so. Make connections that

maybe aren't the most obvious to people

who are from this environment, grew up

there, live there, take it for granted

in a way.

>> Yeah.

>> Um I feel like a lot of the times places

I go, I'm like, "Oh, that's interesting

to me. That seems fresh." And people

like, "Oh, why are you into that?" I'm

like, "That's cool." You know?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> And um

>> in my mind, that's my advantage

>> for sure.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. But it's very like personal work,

right? Like that's

the feeling. What books were you reading

in terms of is it cyber punk? Was it

>> Yeah. Um obviously I was reading um

William Gibson.

>> Yeah.

>> I read Neurommancer and Burning Chrome

and all that stuff when I was like mid-

teens, you know, probably 16, 15, 16.

>> Um I read a lot of uh

yeah, a lot of sci-fi, all kinds of

sci-fi stuff that interested me the

most. I read some uh Iron Rand actually

was like very sort of dangerous

>> but also

>> depends your interpretation right

>> but also but also kind of powerful in a

way you know kind of like

>> um and um

yeah and then for Christmas my parents

gave me one time a translation of the

art of war.

>> Yeah.

>> Which was like I think they just saw in

the bookstore and I was like oh it's a

nice cover and gave it to me.

>> Yeah. But uh I I read that Christmas day

like cover to cover like I was just like

what is this like

>> and doing karate and all that stuff. Um

so that became like a big thing for me.

It was like oh this is an interesting

way to

>> the martial arts thing was fairly early

on.

>> Yeah that that for sure that started

when uh my brother was eight and I was

10 and we went to the YMCA karate class

>> and I just stuck with it actually.

>> Yeah. And um that's where I learned I I

feel like I learned more there than I

learned at school like you know as far

as like how to deal with life or how um

just a way to approach things even

understanding yourself which I guess is

probably the most important thing

>> um physically but also mentally and uh

and even I've told the story before too

but like my first understanding of

apparel came from my karate uniform.

Yeah,

>> the ghee.

>> The ghee. Yeah. Because of the gusset in

the pants. And I realized very early on

that like, oh, I can do things in this

uniform I can't do in my regular.

>> I'm not familiar with the karate

uniform.

>> It's like a judo uniform. It's a it's a

kimono style. It's very simple. Um

uh the pattern on the top is like you'd

expect. The pants um are also very uh

simple construction, very straight.

There's no side seam. It's only inseam,

but there's a big gusset in the middle

which allows you to lift your legs and

move relatively freely.

>> Um, so I realized right away I was like,

I can't kick like this when I wear my

regular clothes that

>> um, you know, my mom would take me

shopping and in the change room like

she's like just what are you doing? Like

I need like kick people in the head,

mom. It's not it's not happening. And

that sort of, you know, that definitely

was like a

>> that was like big informative.

>> Yeah. So that was like a lifelong thing

of like I'm going to design pants that I

>> I need to kick

>> people. Yeah.

>> That's I mean it's still happening

today, right? So

>> So that definitely informed my

>> Did you go to school for fashion?

>> I did. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Funny enough, I went to uh I guess

it's renamed now, but Ryerson Poly

Techchnical um which is then Ryerson

University and now is no longer called

that, but I don't know the new name. I

graduated in 1993.

>> So, what was like hot at the time like

in 93? What was

>> um God I don't even know.

>> I don't even know what's something like

inspire you to like, you know, I want to

be like that person and that's kind of

>> No, not really. It's really stupid. the

I was like I wanted to be in design and

I narrowed it down to architecture,

graphic design or fashion design.

>> I was like there's gonna be more girls

in fashion design.

>> That ended up being true.

>> That was that was true. This I I was a

terrible student. I

>> I was distracted.

>> Not even I was just

>> I was just annoying. I was just I was

just like I was not cool. I had issues.

I was like what?

>> Yeah. Well, I got I almost got expelled

twice. Um

Yeah. Yeah, I had a run in with one of

the security guards and

>> what's going on?

>> Well, the campus was right downtown and

uh

>> at night and obviously the fashion

students are there all night because

they never finish their work and the

sewing labs are open only till 10:00,

but then we'd all hide.

>> Security came around, you turn off all

the lights, hide under the tables, wait

till they pass, turn them back on, keep

sewing.

>> Um so there was a strong sort of

security presence. Um

and then one day I don't know some girl

fellow student got some kind of news

from her family which wasn't good and

she was crying in the hallway and then a

security guard came by and was like I

felt like he was bullying her.

>> So I was like yeah leave for

and then I don't know I was I was not in

a good mental state those years end up

chasing him down the hallway and uh

>> you were chasing the security guard.

>> Yeah it's

>> okay.

>> It sounds bad.

Anyway, let's let's maybe edit this

part.

>> And then and then after that after Yeah.

after that uh security only came through

the fashion department in groups of

three

>> thanks to thanks to me. So that was

great. And then uh later on um I also

almost got expelled because I used a

glue gun to apply the facings of my

dress project.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I was laminating as

>> it was foreshadowing what I was going to

do later.

>> No, I was just really shitty at sewing,

>> right?

>> And um and it looked great and then uh

until the glue dried completely over the

weekend, I guess, and then the facing

just fell off. Oh yeah.

>> Land on the floor in the closet of the

of the teachers the professor's room and

yeah they weren't happy about that at

all. So

>> for various reasons I was a bad student.

I was a terrible student. Yeah.

>> Like this the early stuff that you were

doing for yourself.

>> Yep.

>> Like the core idea was starting

>> for acronym or like back then or

>> back then I guess. Yeah. I mean, some of

it's the same. Like, uh, my graduation

collection was

like all Cordura, all black, it was

nylon.

>> Really?

>> It was like really?

>> Yeah. Who would have guessed?

>> And the pants actually kind of look like

the P10s. Um, you know, so it's kind of

similar like it's very

>> So, you already had the ideas then, like

>> Yeah, cuz I had the same frustrations

with clothes, right, back then. Also, I

did I couldn't afford anything back

then. So, everything I had was kind of

lowrade and would like fall apart or

like

>> Yeah.

>> And I'd be in, you know, in Toronto in

the winter. Uh, and it was either like,

okay, I'm going to spend the $3 I have

on food or I'm going to spend it on the

metro to get home, right? So, I would

take the food and then I'd walk home,

which was like an hour, right? And then

in a blizzard or whatever,

>> um, and just be like soaked by the time

I got home, right?

So yeah, so all of that was like I was

building essentially, you know,

protection for myself. Uh, and I was

very that was a very direct like it's

like yeah, this sucks.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> But at the time like what was on the

market? It's probably the same as now.

Just like in Canada, I imagine it's just

it's

>> Yeah, that's a good question. Well,

fashion wasn't as as like prevalent back

then. Like there was no social media.

There was no like if you want to see the

collections, you could only buy these

giant Japanese magazines. Gap, but they

were like 75 bucks a copy. You just go

to the the store and look at them in the

store, right? That was the only thing

you'd see or at least I could see. There

was no it wasn't on television. It

wasn't like a thing that was around. So,

I think there's not as much of a

>> like you said before like what was hot.

It's like I have no idea. I I don't know

what was going on then at all.

>> And you wouldn't be interested either.

>> I would. Yeah. Super interested. Um, I

would have like I would have I bought

every copy of Interview magazine from

New York and ID magazine from London. I

would like I would know every single

page, right? Like I but what was going

on in Canada? Who knows?

>> I had no clue, right? It was also

>> uh yeah it just wasn't like again wasn't

connected to the environment and

>> um

>> but that intersection of like

performance stuff like cordjuro and

uh contemporary fashion

>> that was not happening at all. Yeah,

>> that was not a thing. So I I found that

because I um I think this the the

fascination with the technical part or

the performance part came from my

parents because they're architects. So

>> yeah,

>> form function you know all of that fits

purpose all so that sort of

>> but they talk about work like at home.

>> Um well we were never at home so we were

always at the office. Yeah cuz no money

for babysitters. So my brother and I

would just go there after school and

hang out and annoy everybody, right?

like, you know, and color everybody's um

drafting tables with tipex and like just

just do like dumb things and uh but that

was always around that sort of like

those conversations were happening and

>> that kind of problem solving was like

>> exactly that was

>> like seeping in

>> evident like what did your brother end

up doing

>> a software so he uh he's sort of

mathematically

>> gifted and uh that was funny too because

when I left home

>> I thought I knew all about computers

was like and then I realized like oh

that wasn't me

like Hara did everything

I really anything about this actually

it's funny yeah um so yeah but none of

that was happening in fashion at least

not that I know of

>> what did that feel like at the time when

you were building stuff out of corduro

did that feel like

>> people were just like this is weird and

like stiff and noisy and I was like yeah

the noise is the cool part you know

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it was just

>> at the time. Did it feel like I'm trying

something new here? I'm trying something

like

>> I never really thought about it like

that. But, you know, I just I just

remember Yeah. because of interest sort

of in some things that are technical but

not also having that much access. But I

do remember going into,

you know, u whatever the sporting goods

store was called back then, athletes

foot, and seeing like I remember seeing

specifically like a steep tech jacket on

a rack

>> being like, "What the hell is this,

right?" You know, or like the Nike Air

Moab shoe

>> was like with the neoprene sleeve and

like,

>> yeah,

>> it looked like, you know, I was like,

"This is crazy," you know. Um, and then

luckily Toronto had a mountain equipment

co-op store which was like a outdoor um,

outfitter, right? And they were pretty

cool because they also had stuff for

repairs. So there was fabrics and trims

and like cord locks and all that kind of

stuff there. And I, you know, just

wandered over and saw that and that's

where I got the fabric. It's for it's

for bags, right? It wasn't it wasn't

even breathable. Like it was like

these like it was like thousand or 500

dier corduro

bag.

>> I'm going to make jackets out of this. I

don't you know like no idea about

breathability or like I just didn't

understand any of those

>> but the concept was like this was

>> I was just like this is tough as hell.

So I'm going to use this.

>> What was the reception like?

>> Um I don't remember actually.

>> Was important.

>> I you know school wasn't like whatever

they would have told me to I wouldn't

have really paid attention.

>> Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha.

>> Not a good student.

>> What was your first design job?

>> Oh. Uh, first design job was for a

German company. So, yeah. So, Michaela

and I met at university in school.

>> And then she was like, I'm going back to

Europe now. School's over. I was like,

oh, I never been to Europe.

>> I just kind of went with her. Uh, her

aunt bought me the ticket, you know, and

she liked me. And, uh,

>> yeah. And then I, you know,

uh, didn't speak any German, so I

couldn't really do anything. Tried to

teach people English, paint their

fences whatever.

>> Right.

>> And first job I had in the industry was

in the warehouse for a skiear brand. Uh,

and I

>> So you working in fashion. Exactly.

Right. I was like, I try to look at the

designs as I was putting them in the

box, you know, the warehouse.

>> Had to get up at like 4:30 a.m. That

sucked. Um, but then uh one of Michael's

cousins was like, "Yo, you should check

these guys out." Um, and there was a a

German brand called Protective,

which is a technical snowboard brand,

and they were doing interesting stuff.

Um, like they had Kevlar elbow patches

and stuff like that was like not typical

snowboarding.

Um, and I found a a brochure that had a

phone number and I called them. I was

like, "Yo." And they were and they gave

me a job. And I'm pretty sure they only

gave me a job because uh American

culture, American world culture

dominated Europe. And so they were like,

>> so that was the

>> they were like, he speaks English. He

must know what's going on.

>> He must have some insight into like what

was hot.

>> I'd never stepped on a snow where I had

no clue at all. Right.

>> I get a lot of that, too. You know, it's

like, you know, his his Japanese. He

must have some like

>> psychic insight, genetic taste,

>> Yeah. Exactly.

So I started with them and they were

trying to do a new like more

um a younger focused line which is

called Subwear

and so I ended up working them for a

number of years. Did the Subwear

collection with them first and then took

over Protective as well and then did

both of those for a while. Had some

disagreements with them about money and

exclusivity and whatever and as revenge

I was like what are your favorite

snowware brands? And then they told me

and then I went and worked for all of

those brands at the same time and and uh

yeah so that and then at some point we

were doing like whatever

and during that time we would also do

any freelance gig like whatever it was.

So we did you know a line of a range of

peas. We did inline skate stuff. We did

club wear. We did snowboard stuff. We

did downhill mountain biking. Like it

didn't matter. Like whatever we could

get paid to design,

>> we would do it. And that was it. And

that was Michaela and I already working

together.

You know, when you're doing these really

desperate things that had probably have

no relation to this,

did you feel like I don't want to do

this or were you just happy to be

working or

>> Yeah. Uh back then it was just like

people are paying me to draw like

>> whatever.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't care. Like like let's go.

>> Um eventually Yes. Eventually, it's just

like, okay, I'm really tired of

listening to these people

>> tell me about product when they have no

clue about design or how even creativity

works.

>> Yeah.

>> They just want to talk about like, oh,

this is selling for them last year, so

it's going to work for us next year. I'm

like that's

>> that's a fallacy.

>> I mean, that's that's like still the

conversations are happening now

>> always, right? Um and you know so you

get tired of that and we did and that's

actually what led us to like let's do

our own thing because

>> man we have to do something where it's

like actually approached with

intelligence and uh curiosity and not

just like hey how can we make money

quick.

>> Yeah.

>> So yeah. So that was

>> but what was the what was the

frustration? I mean like at the time you

were probably doing pretty well working

for a lot of people.

>> Yeah. Being pretty busy.

>> Yeah. We definitely it was Yeah. It was

funny because when we did the first year

of acronym, we h haveved our income

because we just we didn't have time. So,

we took time to do our stuff and then

the amount of money we were making just

went

>> went like

um but we kind of planned for it because

we kind of knew um we also once we

decided our own brand, we're like,

"Okay, we need a certain amount of money

to start this." Um, and then that's when

we really kicked it up and we're like,

we just took every job we could get to

sort of like amass as much capital as we

could. Um, and we're just doing a

ridiculous amount of stuff. I never left

my desk. It was just I was just I

remember like two solid years just had

this glass table. I used to draw

everything by hand

>> and um this pre-illustrator and then I

put a lamp underneath the table and like

would trace everything over like

>> Yeah. Yeah. these technical drawings

with ink, whatever

>> for like just I used to have a friend in

LA who was a comic book artist.

>> Yeah.

>> Steven Platt and he would be drawing in

LA and I would be drawing in Munich and

we would talk on the phone

>> while we were drawing

>> for hours like for days it felt like

>> so nice.

>> And uh but yeah, never went out, never

went to dinner, never, you know, no

hobbies, just sat at my desk and drew,

>> right? And um yeah,

>> like the first acronym stuff seems like

it was still the same core idea from

when you were a student.

>> It's related. Yeah, it was related. I

did learn a lot from Michaela as well

because she uh had a sort of she had

done a tailoring apprenticeship.

>> Um she was also interested in different

designers. I was definitely more like

street wear kind of you know I was I was

more interested in in that aspect of

fashion. I mean I found it interesting.

I didn't know anything about it. There

was no, like I said, there was no

access. But there was like a lot of

things going on in uh in Denim. There

was stuff obviously happening in Japan

that you sort of get it's it's very

different time. Like it's now you can

like go and find out about stuff, right?

>> Well, yeah. Or that stuff will find you.

That's

>> Yeah. And back then you'd see a little

picture like this big and there'd be

like three sentence cap like caption and

that would be it.

>> You have to like guess

>> and there'd be no way to follow up,

right? It's not like there there was no

other possible sort that was you're

like, "Oh, wow. What could that be?"

Right.

>> And um so it's not really

>> Yeah. So yeah,

>> the ideas of it were like kind of

intriguing.

>> Yeah. You know, you I'd occasionally see

whatever I'd see like a like a Stizzy

logo, right? Be like, "Wow, what is

that?" have no no way to understand like

what it was or like see a Yoji, you

know, thing or is thing and but have

like absolutely like nowhere to there's

nowhere to go look at it in Toronto or

at least I didn't know where to look at

it.

>> Yeah.

>> And um yeah, so it was uh a little bit

different in that respect. I didn't have

any direct I can't think of any anyway

right now influences in that you know

and I'd find like

at some shop I'd find like a pair of

Jerbo pants right which were like super

crazy and then

>> but that would be it there would be no

way to see like is there a jacket that

went with this other pants like there

was no

>> it was like you got this one artifact

and you're like whoa what does this mean

like

>> did that first job in like snowboarding

stuff really inform the things that you

were doing because that's kind kind of a

fusion between I mean there's a lot of

function in that.

>> Yeah. I think the thing that

snowboarding did uh I mean for us for

sure it was the first time I think there

was a there was technical apparel that

was created with irreverence

>> as in it wasn't all serious like it was

serious and that if I'm if my pants and

my jacket don't work I'm going to have a

shitty day on the hill. I'm going to get

wet. I'm going to get sick. I'm not

gonna be able to ride as long, etc.,

etc.

>> Yeah.

>> But at the same time,

>> I need to look cool.

>> I need to like

>> Yeah. Because that was like this that

was the start of the boom, wasn't it?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. It became a huge thing. And uh

>> there was this positioning of

snowboarding and versus skiing and

snowboarding was

>> Exactly.

>> the sick alternative.

>> Exactly.

>> You're like, "Yeah, okay."

>> And it was even like soft boot versus

hard boot and like all of that stuff was

going on as well, right? And um but

snowboarding was like especially after

we started working with Burton

snowboards. Um and in particular a guy

there, Greg Dakashin, who is the

originator of analog and so many other

things at Burton, like everything they

did that was cool he did. Um, but that

was the first time we really like

like I remember Arctics coming out then

>> and all the guys in the snowboarding

design back kind of making fun of them

like oh they're such nerds you know like

you know and and like Greg I remember

him briefing me once like he's like man

what can we make that's like gonna piss

everyone off.

Sounds like a fun movie.

>> I was like,

>> and we be like, "Yeah, what what's

really not what are we not supposed to

do?" Like, and then we go and do that,

right? And

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> You know, so we made like like we made a

jacket like he was like, "Yo, let's make

a jacket that's like a gunam

like

>> sick

do that, you know." And then uh yeah,

stuff like that. So that was the first

time I think technical apparel met with

the sort of subcultural

punk rock sensibility where you're like

anti- athoritarian almost right.

>> Yeah.

>> Um

>> I feel like that energy is like

>> that's that's a big thing.

>> That's a big thing.

>> Yeah.

>> Like snowboarding is no longer a big

thing. But the energy though

>> that thing

>> you can plug into a lot of different

stuff.

>> Yeah. And and so many people came out of

that mix like didn't even know at the

time but like like Jeff Staple was

working for them, Stash was working for

them. Heroki Nakamura went out to find

Vizim. He was there

>> at Burton.

>> Yeah.

>> He was at Gravis which was the Burton

footwear brand.

>> Right.

>> Right. And uh Hiroshi was working with

them.

>> Like it's just

>> wow that family tree. so many

connections and like I you know you can

make a movie about that but um a

documentary but uh yeah it's in

hindsight you're like wow that's kind of

crazy like

>> and um yeah so that was that was huge

that the energy of that was like you

know reverberated into the world

>> was like a fun time at work

>> yeah in a way it was also quite

stressful because it was like a certain

amount of things you had to do in a

certain time and it was like

>> they probably wanted to make the most of

that

>> um well our relationship was different

because we were the first external

people they ever hired. So we were

freelance as in

>> and with Burton that just meant you got

a briefing.

>> We went away, you did some drawings, we

made this big binder with all the specs

and we sent it away and then we didn't

hear anything. We wouldn't talk to

anyone anything. Then we would go to the

ISPO which was like the big trade show.

>> It was like there

>> and then we was like oh that made it in.

Oh that made it in. Oh, too bad they

didn't make that jacket, you know. Oh,

they turned that into a girl's jacket

or, you know, like, oh, that's now in

the kids collection, right? Like

whatever, you know. So, that that whole

So, we didn't have, you know, I only

went there

a couple of times, maybe four times

total over like a 10 plus year working

relationship. Um later on when I met

Greg when Greg became like the creative

director uh or director of soft goods

whatever it was called back then

>> that's then it became closer and then

analog and all the really fun stuff

happened then

>> but before that it was just kind of like

you just ship this binder into the void

and just be like yeah

>> good luck hopefully hopefully something

hopefully they use it you know and then

>> and you can say I I did this jacket you

know and

>> so when did acronym start? acronym

started well company was founded in 1989

um

>> because we thought that would sound

cooler than in 2000

>> 1999 and the energy at the time is very

like

>> yeah what was it like in Berlin in 99

>> uh we weren't there we were in Munich

>> right

>> so Berlin didn't happen till 2006

I think five or six u Munich is where we

started and in Munich we found this

really cool uh well first we were just

in our apartment Um, and then at some

point we realized we could afford a

studio and then we found one and it was

this amazing industrial space kind of in

the forest like a little bit outside or

towards the edge of the city.

>> Uhhuh.

>> And uh like they had like

4 meter high ceilings and like

>> this giant room

>> um like if you put down your sunglasses

somewhere you'd be like never find them

again kind of thing. Like it was like

there was only two of us in there but it

was like

almost 400 square meters like this

massive space.

>> Um and then we just stayed there like we

didn't go anywhere. So we had no

interaction with the city at all. We're

just like in the woods.

>> We were just in in the forest in the

bunker

>> and uh and it was a physics laboratory

before

>> um technic

part of the frownhov institute which is

like a scientific uh

>> that is very I mean on retrospect it's

like almost too acronym right. It's like

>> it's true it's true.

>> You were in a lab. We were we're

literally in a decommissioned physics

lab. Yeah.

>> And in that lab they used to test uh

>> they used to blow things up I think

essentially. So they would like

>> get a television from somebody and then

they would drop it and film it in slow

motion and see how it you know broke

apart. So because the

>> everything was concrete like the the

whole roof the walls everything was

concrete. There's no windows. Um but

Michaela's father um is a dera a roof

maker and in construction. So he came

with his friends and sliced out these

big chunks of the the concrete and put

windows in.

>> This is a rental.

>> Uh it was we we made an agreement with

them. They were like, "You really want

to rent this place?" Cuz it was like

attractive right?

>> We went to look at something else.

>> They were like, "H not really office

space, whatever." Like, "Well, we got a

warehouse. You want to see that?"

>> They're like, "Yeah, sure." to us and

they opened it like

>> oh my god

>> this is it. They're like really you want

to rent this? I was like well yeah and

then we rented it for 10 years. Um

and we were like so if we do this and

this can we you know make some kind of

arrangement and so that worked out. So

we were there for ages but that also

meant we didn't go anywhere like

interact with this. I have no idea

what's going on.

>> We were just in the lab doing stuff.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> What was the early stuff like? Um well

it was all the agency work of course

like the all this that was a lot

>> the agency was called

>> the agency was not it was originally

called ARCs A RX which I don't remember

why but um and uh and that proved to be

impossible to register as a trademark

>> arcs

>> uh yeah

>> why

>> it was already taken

>> okay

>> yeah and then we started like thinking

about what else could we how could we

name the company

um yeah and back then You also couldn't

just check on the internet.

>> You had to pay a lawyer and they would

go through the the office and go through

the file cabinet and be like, "Oh,

>> there's already a thing called this."

>> Yeah,

>> that's another, you know, thanks for

your 5,000 marks

>> for the read for the search.

>> Better luck next time.

>> Jesus Christ.

>> So, the name acronym was also chosen

because it didn't sound like fashion.

>> No. And uh we were like the chances of

someone already having this in fashion

are quite a bit lower.

>> Yeah. Because it's per category, right?

>> Exactly. Let's try that.

>> Yeah.

>> And we tried it. It worked.

>> Great.

>> And the the trademark lawyers were also

like, "Wow, we can't believe you

actually got a word that exists because

>> almost all words that exist already are

taken."

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> We're like, "Okay, cool."

>> And uh that was the name. I mean, the

meeting was cool and we wanted this, you

know, that all made sense as well, but

>> but like the way that you name your

items that was already

>> No, that came later actually. That came

later right?

>> Um, yeah.

And the I mean that's also not an

acronym. Those are initialisms. We also

learn the difference between.

>> Oh, right.

>> So, an acronym actually has to make a

word and like FBI is not an acronym.

That's an an initialism.

>> So, what's an acronym? acronym would be

like um like NASA makes a word NASA

um that's an acronym

>> okay

>> whereas like IBM international business

machines it doesn't make a word you

can't say IBM you can't it's not IBOM

right you can't so then it's an

initialism

>> yeah I'm still having trouble with ATM

machine

I'm one of those guys

>> that's I mean that's that's that's

definitely true you know the English

language

So

the first release. Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> That was what was what was that?

>> That was 2002.

Um it's called kit one and it was

essentially the result of us realizing

we don't have enough money to develop a

collection. So

>> and because of that we're like well we

have all the ideas so what do we do? We

thought all right let's put all the

ideas we have into one thing. So all the

ideas we had for an entire brand

>> Yeah.

>> into essentially it ended up being

actually two products that interacted

with each other, one jacket and one bag

>> plus some music, some catalog, some

visuals all in a sort of box set. Um,

which encapsulated the entire brand as a

single thing you could buy. And because

we didn't have enough money to make like

30 SKU or even 10 SKU or 5 SKU, right,

it was like that was it. So, um that was

the idea. And it actually in hindsight

worked really well. It was uh because it

was, you know, so you'd show up

not with the a collection, you show up

with this weird box.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a weird thing.

>> And like pull out this folding thing.

>> Yeah. Um, and it was like there was like

a like a almost like like a hard

coverver book with a slipcase but on a

bigger scale. And then instead of a

book, it was like a folder. Um, and then

on one side the jacket was strapped and

the other side there was the bag and

then there's like CDs and stuff.

>> The whole thing is like super dramatic.

Hey.

>> Yeah, it was super cool. And u we worked

with this guy Mark Bur who is uh from H

Highleberg and he actually went on to

design all of the stores for Stone

Island. Um, not the ones now, but the

ones back then.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh, when Paul Harvey went to Stone

Island, he was also at that time, that's

when he started to do all that stuff

with his partner, uh, Te Wolf and, um,

Mark

came up with the the box and just this

insane. It's really beautiful. Um, and

keeping it with the whole sci-fi um,

thing too, he also and the martial arts

thing, he's like he's like, "This box

should also work as a sword stand."

>> What?

>> Yeah. So, a lot of people don't know

that, but there's a notch in that box

that will take like a sword.

>> A katana. Like you can you can put a

katana and it stands on there.

>> Hang on.

>> It's super badass. Actually, that's

super cool. I didn't even come up with

that. I was like, "Mark, you really get

us."

Yeah. So, very cool. We also did the

first uh the acronym logo, the first

acronym logo with the it's sort of it's

the triad, but it's like in three

dimensions and it looks like a people

call it UFO,

>> right?

>> Um he did that as well. And uh yeah, we

still use that to this day.

>> So, what was the reception for the fist?

Uh, reception was actually pretty good

considering that the wholesale price was

€1,300.

>> That's the wholesale price.

>> That's the wholesale price.

>> Yeah. Yeah. What was the retail price?

>> I mean, we just kind of left it up to

whatever. Like, if you can get more for

it, go good. Good for you. You know, you

know, we didn't um we only ended up

selling it to three stores.

>> Yeah.

>> Um,

one place called um Real Mad Hectic,

which was in Tokyo.

>> Yeah. I was just about to say,

>> yeah, in Tokyo.

>> That could only be in Tokyo.

>> Run by Manctic.

>> Real Mad Hectic run by Yopi or Yoshifuma

Egawa. Yoshifumi Eawa. Yopei. Uh, and

who was introduced to us by Stash who is

a New York based graffiti artist, still

is, uh, who I met through Burton

Snowboards. He's also doing graphics for

them. Um his store in New York, Recon on

Elder Street was the second store. And

the third store was a place called The

Hideout in London.

>> Uh which was run by Michael Coppelman

and Fraser Cook. Uh Fraser Cook went on

to be the Nike

creative collaborator guy. Everything

that Nike did that wasn't athletic. So

all the collabs that we know when we

think about Nagina, he's the guy who

found all those people,

>> right?

>> But at the time he ran the hide house

store in London um in Soho and so we

only had three locations. I think we

made 120 box sets.

>> Yeah.

>> Um we sold less than half of them.

>> Yeah. Um, but we were glad because once

we realized how difficult it was to put

everything in the boxes

>> and we had all these decals and like

things to apply the boxes ourselves and

the straps to hold the just becomes huge

production. We're like, "Oh, we totally

underestimated how hard this was going

to be." So, we were like super happy

that we didn't have to assemble them

all.

>> Yeah. Um, and that also really affected

how the brand worked later because we

realized like

[ __ ] packaging.

Everything has to be easy. We're not

going to spend any money on any of the

surrounding stuff. Everything goes in

the product.

>> I'm so

>> Yeah. I want to ask your opinion about

packaging cuz I feel like like I'm a

sort of pragmatic sort of guy.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Especially when it comes to that

kind of stuff. I'm very unromantic.

>> Yep.

>> You know, when I bought a car,

>> I bought a Volvo. Okay. Okay.

>> Which is fairly unromantic choice as

well, you know, and the and the trend in

in Australia or maybe elsewhere is that

they put this giant red bow on it.

>> Oh, wow.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> That's crazy.

>> Huge bow on it. And when you buy a new

car and then when you arrive they this

whole sing song and dance sometimes they

put it and they rotate it around so you

can enjoy this new car feeling. And I

knew that was coming. I said to the guy

like, "Don't I don't

>> I don't need it.

>> I'm not going to buy it if there's a Red

Bull on it. I'm not, you know,

>> they're like, "What?"

>> Yeah. Like that's the best part, right?

And like I just don't like I just don't

trust me.

>> And then I finish work and I rock up to

the thing, giant bowl on it.

>> You just turn around and walk away.

>> I did. I did, you know, and I had to

wait, you know, buying a new car is like

such a pain in the ass. Like you have to

wait another eight weeks for something

to come in. But that was like the only

way I could like flex my own power. I

was like, I'm not going to buy this car.

So I was like, I'm not going to buy it.

So I didn't buy it. That is so funny.

>> Yeah, but it was very like I I just feel

like things should be in the product.

>> Yeah,

>> exactly.

>> It really really annoys me when So when

it feels like you're cheating, when the

packaging is nicer than the product or

>> it happens all the time,

>> you know,

>> it happens all the time.

>> And I think I'm a minority voice in

this. Yeah, I think

particularly in the in the in the way

the market works now and the way

companies work now, it is I mean at the

end of the day too it is easier to

generate marketing than it is to

generate product.

>> So

>> yeah,

>> you can tell it's it's

>> I feel like that that this concept of

marketing versus product

>> is also

>> is is is very much like a modern

discussion.

>> Yeah, it's a it's it's false actually.

>> Exactly.

>> It's not real. Yeah,

>> I think marketing is

>> should be in the product.

>> Should be

>> right. And if your thing is so sick,

people are going to talk about it and

you can talk about it very plainly and

be like, "Yeah, that's a compelling

story already because the product is

it."

>> Y

>> but if your box is the nicest part, like

get [ __ ] you know?

>> It feels wrong. Yeah. It's just cool.

Yeah.

>> So what's your like packaging now?

>> So after the box set thing, which was

not that. Um

>> but I mean that

>> that was also more of like a art thing,

you know.

>> That's something. Yeah. Um, but then we

went to a Ziploc bag

and uh and it's still that it's still a

Ziploc bag.

>> Is it like a custom acronym?

>> It's a cheap terrible like

>> it's a generic bag.

>> It's a generic bag and we put it we just

we laser print a sticker and we slap it

on

>> and print out a A4 like a what we call

spec sheet which used to be a photocopy

and we just slide it into the bag.

>> What's in the spec sheet? like can

structure or something.

>> No, it just says uh it doesn't have that

actually. It just has the season and the

name and then maybe nine photos with

like the key ports and then all the

fabric information, what it's made of,

what how many pockets it has, whatever.

>> Um and it's just, you know, and this the

Ziploc bags are terrible. Like they're

just I don't know why it's so hard for

us to find a good Ziploc bag, but we're

somehow unable to do it. Um, so we get

these industrial grade ones that like as

you pull out the thing, it leaves this

weird residue on the garment that's like

white, which we've christened science

dust at the company.

And um, yeah, it's terrible. So, you

have to sort of dust off.

>> When did that start?

>> That the science dust thing didn't start

till like a couple of years. We don't

know why they started to make them like

that.

>> No, as in like the the move to the

Ziploc bag. 2003.

>> Yeah. And prior to that

>> 0304. Prior to that, there was no

seasonal collection. That was the first

seasonal collection. So, it's right at

the beginning,

>> right?

>> Um,

>> and was that a reaction to the box or

no?

>> Yeah, because that was like the

diametric opposite like there's

absolutely no thought, no, like it's

just the simplest possible thing.

>> Have you ever had a complaint from a

customer going like this is too

unromantic or this is not?

>> Yeah. A couple of times some stores are

like, yo, what is this is the least

this? They're like this, you know, this

thing costs €1,200, right?

>> Well, that's why. Yeah.

>> Like we know.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, but most of the time actually

people collect them, which we also think

is really funny.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and we used also like heavyweight

bags so that people could reuse them for

something else.

>> Yeah.

>> We didn't want them to be like

throwaway, you know. Now we should not

use plastic, of course, but we've also

not found a solution that's like durable

enough.

>> Well, that's the thing. It needs to be

waterproof.

>> Yeah. It needs to survive shipping and

it needs like all it's it's quite a hard

it's a non-trivial problem even though

it sounds like it should be trivial.

>> Well, I think about that all the time

because there are all these like great

alternatives from an environmental point

of view but it

>> yeah you risk losing the garment. You

risk damaging the garment and that's the

whole point.

>> That's kind of the problem.

>> Yeah. So yeah, so that's that's the

reaction against that and uh yeah, we we

should solve that at some point. But it

does I mean the thing that it has about

it then is when you get it you it sort

of has this like

>> you know uh three- ring binder manual

thing where like oh this this code is

still in development like it's not

finished yet.

um it has definite like prototype vibes

to it and uh that's fairly accurate

because everything we do goes into the

product and we're pushing the limits all

the time of like what's actually

possible

>> but it's also true that you kind of want

them to know that you're doing that too.

I mean that it is just the reality,

right? So like we actually don't have

time to think about that. Like we

literally don't have the time

>> and

>> you know and people are like, "Oh, do

you feel bad now that there's stuff that

doesn't sell out in 5 minutes in the

store and like you've got all the stock

in the shop and whatever?" I'm like,

"No, that's amazing." Like you have no

idea. Like every single thing that we

make that gets made out the door is like

a victory because like

>> Yeah.

>> It's hard. It's hard to make the stuff.

Like when I make something that I think

is really good, I don't even want to

sell it. I want to keep them all

>> and give you this away. You know how

hard this was to make?

>> Yeah.

>> I'm going to keep all these for myself.

like you know which is obviously silly

but um so it is the reality of it and it

is like that's why it also hasn't

changed because you know every time

someone we put somebody on okay let's

find an alternative it goes on for a

little while and then uh and then they

have to go back to work and do the real

work actually now we can't deliver the

product like now we got to sort out the

fabric now we got to you know fix this

part of the supply chain that's crashed

momentarily and it's you know people

don't understand how hard it is actually

make stuff, especially stuff that's not

what everyone else makes.

>> I I feel like

uh it's hard to explain without

>> Yeah.

>> looking like you're making excuses,

>> you know? I mean, that's my that's my

whole thing.

>> I'm always vindicated when someone else

who also makes clothes

>> Yeah.

>> pops up in the comments and they're

like "Actually

>> I've done this and this and this and

they should charge more cuz this is so

hard to do. You have no idea. hard to

do.

>> Yeah. And

>> you know, you definitely I mean, if

you're trying to make if you if your

goal is to make money,

>> don't go into fashion.

>> There are more efficient ways to do it.

>> There's better ways to do it for sure.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Like it's kind of stupid at every level.

>> It's not a It is not a smart move.

>> No.

>> By any means. Like there's no

>> It's like not only do you have to

satisfy your own like tastes, it has to

someone has to pay you money for it,

right?

So, yeah. I don't know. I could I I

could winge about it forever.

>> Sure.

>> Yeah. Just get easier is my question.

>> I feel like No, I feel like it doesn't

get easier cuz it's disappoint's more I

think if it gets easier to know like

what you want

>> gets easier. Yeah. Like I'm I'm about

this. I want this. I want it to do that.

>> There's more like at least for me, there

seems to be more

>> I can be much more specific about things

that we're investigating.

Um, and I feel like the clothes are

getting better like technically,

aesthetically, everything. Like we're

always learning and um, but does the

process of making it get easier? No. Cuz

>> things happen, you know, like it is it

is a hostile world, you know, like it is

like now there's a trade war. Oh, now

the now there's a pandemic. Now the

supply chain is broken. Now this

currency collapsed. like and oh, you get

paid in the other currency and now your

paycheck is worth 35% less than it was

last year and but all the expenses are

the same. Like all of that stuff is

always happening

>> and it's not design work. It's my

>> zero. Yeah. Yeah. I like what people

think I do as a designer is probably 10%

of the time. Like

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Maybe less.

>> Yeah. Yeah. For for me it's less.

>> Yeah.

>> For me at the moment it's like three.

>> Yeah. At the beginning.

>> Yeah. Like it was definitely like like

Michaela and I ran acronym together. Uh

and there was only two of us for like

the first eight years probably.

>> And um and we did everything like we

packed the boxes, we wrote the copy,

we filled out the orders, we designed

the stuff, we made the spec sheets, we

like

>> I mean for me it seems like a very

unlikely success story. Hey, because

>> for me too

Yeah. We were like, "Wow, this is

working."

>> Yeah.

>> Cuz all your stuff is like there's so

much in it.

>> Y

>> and none of it is

really generated to be palatable or

commercial.

>> No. None of it makes sense. Like there's

>> so

like it really is

>> so focused.

>> Yep. Yeah. It's a very specific weird

thing.

>> Yeah.

>> And I mean, somebody wrote that

>> on one your videos, a comment just

yesterday,

>> right?

>> Um, somebody wrote, "The more personal,

the more universal."

>> Do you think that's true?

>> I was like, "That's pretty good." Yeah.

In some ways,

>> I think I'm I'm coming to realize that

it's probably true.

>> As as an artist, I think that's a valid

>> But what why do you think that's true?

Is that because we all we all have

common problems?

>> No, I think it's because of honesty.

Like because if you're actually honest

to yourself and you're doing something

that matters to you,

>> you can't be dishonest if you're doing

something that matters to you.

>> What do you mean?

>> Like otherwise, you're just lying to

yourself, right? Like if you actually

ask like what do I actually want to make

as a creative person, right?

>> Um you have to confront yourself and be

like I care about this. I don't care

about that. Like because there's there's

always compromise. There's always

decisions. Doing this means I don't do

that, right? At the very at the most

fundamental level. If it's you're doing

something that actually matters to you.

>> Yeah.

>> Those decisions are very real and very

serious. So

>> yeah,

>> when you really do something that's

personal,

>> you have to be honest about it. You have

to actually and I think people see that

and it resonates with them. They're

like, "Uh, this is actually authentic

for

>> Do you think there's some problems that

you understand better than most people

would?"

Because you've been thinking about it

for a long time.

>> Yeah, maybe, but I would say it's I

don't think about it like I don't think

about I know how to I'm a genius like

>> Yeah. But I mean, do you have the sense

like look, I've actually thought about

this forever. Yeah, I do remember there

being a time when like Morren and I,

Morren who's one of our head designers

and we were talking we're like at some

point we realize like how we do kind of

know what we're doing now

cuz we always approach everything like

we have no idea which means allows us to

look at every possible source and be

like what can we learn from this what

can we learn from that what can and

we're yeah

>> you know inspirationally agnostic right

so like I will look at ethnic clothing,

I will look at industrial waste

management, utility wear. I will look

at, you know, uh high fashion, you know.

>> But you are solving for what a problem

though with your work, I think.

>> A lot of the time, yeah, a lot of the

time we're solving for Well, I don't

know if it's specifically a problem, but

it's like a

it's a solving for a

approach like

>> like we're trying to do things that

allow us to live the way we want to.

Right? Which means

I don't I don't want to pay attention to

the weather, right? I don't want to be

hindered by

um

I can't carry all my stuff now and I

need to, you know,

>> get a bag or have someone else help me

or, you know,

>> yeah,

>> um it all comes down to autonomy at the

end of the day. We want to be

independent and we want to have as

individuals have agency like so we can

do whatever it is we want to do,

>> right?

>> And if that means I want to be able to

lift my arm and hang on to the strap on

the subway

>> or if it means I want to be able to uh

stay outside in the rain for two hours

longer, then that's what we're trying to

do, right? So it's not I don't know if

it's a problem like there's this it's a

collection of problems or series of

situations we're trying to like allow

people to be comfortable in

>> or to have agency in

>> to have the choice like

>> yes I'm too hot now I can take off my

jacket I can sling it and I'm cool you

know like that kind of like it sounds

dumb but like

>> well most of it most of this work is

dumb I feel by like you know

>> yeah but when you're in that situation

you appreciate it you know

>> exactly yeah

>> um yeah I I would also say a lot of our

work is based on annoyance. Like, man,

it's so annoying. When this happens,

you're like, how can we fix that? That's

so dumb. Like, there's got to be a

better way.

>> I think autonomy is like just one of

those really tricky

uh

issues, right? I think because

>> how do you get it

is my thing.

>> Yeah. You know,

>> it's like a goal most of the time rather

than a state.

>> It's like,

>> but it's like an impossible goal.

>> It's on the wish list. Yeah.

>> Because like you can design the [ __ ]

that you want to design and you can be

like uncompromising.

>> But that is kind of a false premise,

right? Because you still need someone to

pay you money and someone else has to

agree that this is actually

>> worth it.

>> Worth it.

>> Yeah.

>> Right.

>> Yes. So

you you might be designing for yourself

and you have no bosses but your boss is

actually the customer or the market.

>> But that comes back to the more personal

the more universal. So like what I

>> if you're happy about things

>> like something that I really like and we

do it and like everybody's like that's

why are you going to do that's so dumb

like it's so expensive. It's so hard

like so weird. Why are you doing that?

But I think that's why you have success

is because you are way more rigorous

than anyone else would be about things,

right?

>> And also we're just like, you know what,

who cares? We're going to make it.

And then I think most people don't make

that final step because it's money,

right? You have to gamble. Like it's a

it's a risk. Like

>> there's no, you know, people are always

mad when things sell out.

>> And I'm like, you think I knew this was

going to sell out when it you know, but

while we were making it? No. We had

doubts about it the entire way up until

it sold out.

>> Yeah. Tell me about the couldn't have

told you it was going to sell out, you

know like

>> tell me about the like the production

cycle like you do things how many how

how much in the future are you designing

for?

>> Uh depends on the factory. So each

factory has its own sort of rhythm

>> and uh it can be as short as even six

months from sketch to product in the

shop.

>> Um and as long as two years. Yeah.

Even longer if we design something and

develop and it doesn't work then

sometimes we shove it and come back to

it sometimes years later. Right. So

Right. Right. Right. Depending on what

it is but but anywhere from 6 months to

two years. And uh

>> and what decisions are you making at the

two-year mark? How you making how how

many to make?

>> No. A two-year mark means it's in the

shop.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. So it's from let's make this

jacket

to that jacket is hanging in the store

>> or available online. That's that's two

years. So, including manufacturing time,

including fabric, including from like

from zero to full. Yeah.

>> Gotcha. Okay.

>> It's long.

>> It's long.

>> It's super long. Yeah.

>> And I think it's very hard.

>> It just seems incompatible, doesn't it?

Like,

>> it's it's so annoying.

It's so annoying because the instinct is

to work quickly and to respond to market

forces, respond to what's in the air,

culturally in the air, artistically.

>> That's the ideal thing. Yeah.

>> But then you're

>> a lot of times uh well because of the

the the type of work we do where it's

not just about the aesthetics

and it's also not just about the

function, it's both. So each of those

things takes an enormous amount of time

to perfect. Mhm.

>> Um, and then you have to, for example,

you know, after we get the look, that's

like most people, fashion designers,

they're done, right?

>> Then we have to make it work,

>> right?

>> Then once we think it works, we have to

test it,

>> right?

>> And then that usually means using a

certain type of manufacturing, a certain

type of fabric. Those fabrics also have

to be tested.

the suppliers of those fabrics also have

to do their own homework and all of that

adds up and that's why you end up with

two years because

>> you're just doing something that can't

fail, right? So, it's a lot of

redundancy, a lot of testing, a lot of

um yeah, those things are just harder to

make. It's just

>> why is it important for your things like

just for

>> the criticism I suppose is that do you

overengineer your stuff?

>> Yeah.

>> Yes, we do.

Easy question.

>> 100%. We absolutely overengineer it.

Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Because we like

>> that's our whole thing. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. We overengineer everything. Yeah.

It's the same as like when you when I

hear people talk about like professional

fighters, right? Or like Yeah.

>> The training is way harder than the

fight,

>> right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're prepared.

>> Yeah. They're prepared. So, we do all of

that over engineering. So, when you wear

it, it's seamless,

>> right?

>> So, all the annoying stuff happens

before we

>> hand the product to you so that when you

have it,

>> you can just have fun and be like or

focus on actually what you want to do

rather than what you're wearing. Right.

So, I don't have to worry.

>> I understand the approach.

>> I don't have to worry about like, oh,

it's going to rain now and I'm on my

bike, right? You know, it it totally

doesn't matter. Like, or I go to the

restaurant, somebody spills red wine in

my pants

>> and the, you know, waitress is freaking

out. You're like, "Hey, chill. Nothing

happened right?"

>> I get it. You get it. You get it. Like,

that's that's what you know, that's our

thing. So, it's it's absolutely 100%

overengineered like

>> deliberately.

>> Deliberately. Yeah. And um

for good or bad, that also means it also

means, you know, small production runs,

high cost. Like it's expensive. It's

it's it's not it's not for everyone.

It's like it's it's weird. It's weird

stuff.

And uh but for whatever reason, you

know, it it resonates with certain

people.

>> Do do you like your personal

relationship with the work? Has that

changed from the start? In terms of what

do you mean

>> when you get little wins and things at

the start? Did that feel different? Was

that unique?

>> Um I I think it's actually gotten

easier in the sense that when we started

what we were doing there was no

like any there was nothing related.

There was no community. There was no

>> you couldn't get any feedback really.

Yeah,

>> we were just doing weird stuff that

nobody understood

>> and and we decided very early on like

after maybe 3 years we're like

>> because we thought it would grow faster

and we thought it would like make more

money and whatever and that we could do

less agency work blah blah blah

>> uh and then it didn't happen and we're

like this is so hard and so much work

and the financial reward is so small.

>> Y

>> we never lost money. We've never lost

money but

we were like is it worth it? like do we

really want to do? And we decided, you

know what? We're just going to do it

because we want to do it.

>> When was that?

>> That's

>> How many years in was that?

>> Three years in. Like maybe 2008.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm 3 years in. I feel

>> I feel Yeah. Yeah.

>> Three years into the seasonal

collection. 2007, 2008.

>> It's so much work.

>> It's so much work. It's like it's

unfathomable amounts of work.

>> Yeah. And

>> because I think the fun stuff about

designing Yeah. Yeah,

>> which is kind of like very vague ideas

and then like it has a physical shape

now and that physical shape

>> is the best

>> cuz I kind of like I have I am an

interpreter for vague ideas that are

just like floating in the air

>> and then you feel like kind of a genius,

right? You're like

>> getting prototypes back

>> Yeah.

>> is the best part. Like you're like this

is so cool.

>> You get so juiced up some weird concept

and you're like oh now I can try it on

and wear around the house. It's so cool.

>> Yeah. And um that I think if that

remains their motivation, that's

probably the healthiest thing.

>> It is healthy, but no one's paying me to

do this stuff.

>> Yeah. I mean, not yet.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Hopefully. Right. Hopefully.

>> Yeah. Hopefully.

>> Um Yeah. Because as soon as you start to

It's obviously it's a luxury, right?

like if you don't have to worry about

like the way we do I I'm fully aware

that the way we approach things is not a

realistic option for many companies

right

>> um where we're just like well let's just

see what happens you know

>> I'm going to do the thing I think is

right you know

>> um and we've been fortunate enough to

have those things you take those bets

and they pay off right

>> that's obviously not always the case

also now for us

>> um and sometimes you're like damn we're

out of money. Like it's like that didn't

work. Like what do we do now? Right. So

>> yeah.

>> Um that's that's that's just reality.

That's why you know

>> like the thing I I think that's

challenging about the work is that

your stuff is all black.

>> You know what I mean?

>> Okay. You go to your website and it's

like, okay, we've got 70 black things

with black jackets, got black pants, and

very often it's yourself modeling.

>> Sure.

>> Right.

>> So, it's you're not sure whe there's an

error in the website like they've

repeated

these things, right? And um now coming

in and trying stuff on and seeing

things, there is just like an

unbelievable

like literally unbelievable level of

detail about where your hands go, where

your hands could go, the experience of

wearing the things from the first

person's point of view.

>> Yeah.

>> Not from the camera's point of view, but

the point of view of the person wearing

it.

>> Yep. that cannot be easily communicated

on a photo even through videos which

>> you have to wear it.

>> You have to wear it.

>> Yeah.

>> And I feel like

I think that's very challenging. Like I

didn't know any of this stuff, but I I

got it. I kind of you know you into it

the value of these things when you wear

it but how does that exist in

e-commerce?

>> Um it doesn't I mean

>> this is it's you can't convey that feel

like you it really is I think for academ

>> aside from just trying it on yourself

and having the experience. I mean like

let's

>> first I want to show people like you

know

>> Sure.

>> This is a convertible

uh pant to skirt cargo pant to cargo

skirt.

>> Okay.

>> And uh it's done on a fit block which is

based on an Indonesian Celad pant.

>> Yes.

Pants for an Indonesian martial art

called Celat.

>> Okay. Um, and it has the unique uh

ability, well, it's a it's a drop crotch

pant essentially, but one that has zero

resistance to any kind of movement. So,

you can have full range of motion, but

still have this sort of drop crotch

silhouette. And when you wear it, it

kind of feels like you're not wearing

anything.

So, you can move your legs in any

direction, you know, you know,

laterally, pendularly. And that's not

normal for a drop crotch pant because

like

>> at all.

>> If it's drop crotch, you would think

that they would you would run into

problems early.

>> Yeah.

>> So, you've worked it out though.

>> Yes. Yeah. Very much so.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um

Yeah. A lot of drop crunch. You can't

even go up the stairs, right? Like you

have to you got to

>> What's the story about the stuff? Um,

well, I had actually gone to a martial

arts studio around the corner and uh

when I was in the reception, there was a

video playing on the wall and for

whatever reason I looked up and there

was a a video like a fraction of a

second long of a guy, a black guy, bald

black guy, his name is Essie and he

jumped up in the air and he did a

spinning back kick into a heavy bag

while wearing these drop crotch pants.

And I was like, "That's impossible.

>> It shouldn't happen.

>> You shouldn't be able to do that."

>> Yeah.

>> And then, uh, funny enough, months

later, I was fortunate enough to meet

Essie, and I was like, "Yo, tell me

about those pants." And he was like, he

knew exactly what I was talking about

immediately.

>> Cuz as a martial artist, he has the same

problem. You can't find pants like that.

>> He says, "Yeah, I have those. Do you

want me to bring them? I'll show them to

you." Um, he says, "They're barely

pants, though. Like, there's no

waistband. There's no pockets. like you

can't really wear them around

unfortunately. And I was like, "Okay,

cool." He brought them over, we took

them apart,

um, examined the geometry, copied the

pattern, made our own version, made a

prototype, and then we started to work

on it and understand like why do these

fit mechanics behave the way they do,

and how does this work?

>> Yeah. And how does it work?

>> Um, well, it's what we call a edgetoedge

fit block, meaning it uses almost the

full width of the fabric. Um, and

essentially it's you have a lot of

excess material. Um, and the pan is not

the legs of the pan aren't cut like

this. They're cut like this, right? So

you gain all of this range of motion um

with this excess material. And then it

has to be the right combination of

material and shape so that when it when

you because you don't stand like this,

right? You put your legs together,

>> stand like a normal person that

>> it still looks cool, right?

>> And uh

>> that's what it looks like laid flat.

That's what it looked like laid flat.

Exactly. It's a triangle essentially.

>> Yeah. Wow.

>> It's a big ass triangle. And uh and that

that led to the pant called P25, which

was the first edgetoedge fit block we

did. Um and then we keep attempting to

we keep iterating on it and adjusting,

you know, the length of the rise,

um the angle of the cut of the pant of

the legs, sorry. and and then adding

things like features like pockets,

changing the waistband, that kind of

thing. And eventually arrived at a pant

called the P30, which essentially looks

like this. That's gone through several

variations. And P30 was a 3/4length

summer pant. Then came P30A, which had a

zip off cuff or zip-on cuff so that you

could wear in the winter. Then came

P30L, which had a straight long leg. And

then the latest version is SK30, which

is a convertible uh pant, which means

you can unzip the inseam, enter into

skirt

>> for the summer.

>> Why? What's the story behind the skirt?

>> Uh so my girlfriend wears the P30L.

That's her favorite pant. And she was

like, "Yo, I need this like a skirt. I

need this pant but in a skirt." And I

was like, "Okay, cool." And forgot about

it.

Then, you know, every couple of months

you'd be like, "Yo, where's my skirt?"

And then one time I was like, "You know

what? I could probably modify one of the

pants I already have and uh make her a

skirt for Valentine's Day." So, I did

that.

>> How nice.

>> Yes. And she was happy and it was cool.

Um, and then maybe two weeks later, I

was thinking about it. I was like, you

know what? If I the way I modified that

skirt, I could probably also now modify

back into a pair of pants if I added a

zipper into the inseam

>> to make it convertible.

>> Exactly. And it worked. And actually,

this the SK30 I wear is still that one.

It's still the test one. I was like two

two plus years later, I'm still wearing

it.

>> So, we can zip that.

>> Yeah. Just keep going. Yep.

>> And now I've got

>> Now you got massive ventilation. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. And then so when I

started doing this and I in the summer I

pretty much only wear these now because

once I started wearing a skirt in the

summer I was like I was mad. I was like

literally like what how have I not been

doing this already?

How am I this old and just wearing a

skirt in the summer for the first time

now? I was like it's so much better than

pants. Like it it the feeling is so much

better. And

>> this is from

>> Yeah. From sealant to skirt.

>> Yeah. Seeant to skirt.

pants in between.

>> Not necessarily the same person that's

gonna buy the shirt is going to buy the

skirt,

>> right?

>> So, there's different.

>> So, there's no like one acronym dude

like

>> No. Yeah. Not at all.

>> A bunch of them. I guess

>> there's a few of them. It's always I

mean, that's probably the best part

about the job is being surprised by

who's into it.

>> Yeah.

>> It's like,

>> but this like this skirt look, that's

also you.

>> And this shirt, that's also you.

>> Yeah.

>> You're the common denominator in terms

of taste.

>> Um, probably.

Yeah. I I think I think there's I do

think there's stuff though that like I

always get surprised.

>> Yeah.

>> Quite quite often. But like

>> I'm like, well, I'm not a 100 percent

convinced, but let's try it. You know,

>> I'm always like, look, I I I fall into

the trap of designing for myself.

>> Okay.

>> Because that's the only thing I can

understand.

>> Yeah.

>> And really, that's the only thing I I'm

interested in. Yeah, it's also it's the

most honest perspective,

>> but I'm continually surprised by what

commercial taste is.

>> Yeah,

>> cuz some things really go and some

things like I think would be probably

more to everyone's taste.

>> No, you know,

>> no, we're I feel like I'm terrible at

predicting what's going to

>> I've kind of given up. I've kind of

Look, I'm just Yeah, I think it's I

think it's also not a good idea as a

designer to try and dissipate that

>> because you end up like pleasing no one.

Is that the idea?

>> Yeah, you kind of It's impossible to

know. Like there's so many things.

>> I think there's probably no darker

feeling that I panded to someone else

and then it didn't work.

>> That's no there's no deeper hole, right?

>> Absolutely. That's true. That's

absolutely

>> at least can fall back and at least I

liked it. Yep. You know.

>> Exactly. Or at least convinced me, you

know.

>> Yeah.