How Elon Thinks

All right. So, I have an advanced copy of

right. So, I have an advanced copy of your book, The Book of Elon, Elon Musk's most useful ideas in his own words. You

just said something that there's only four of these copies in the world. Who

has them?

>> It's it's a pretty special list. It's

like Naval Rabicon, Mr. Beast, Ivanka Trump, and you.

>> Okay. So, the idea for this is you spent 5 years, thousands of hours studying Elon. He's been a hero, a personal hero

Elon. He's been a hero, a personal hero of yours for a very long time. I just

want to like I obviously read and reread the book. I'm just gonna like run

the book. I'm just gonna like run through a bunch of highlights and ideas >> like that I thought were interesting and just kind of throw them to you and you see like what uh like what you find interesting about it or like add additional context. So something we were

additional context. So something we were talking about when we were having coffee this morning is the importance of encouraging as many people as possible.

Like we have enough dealmakers. We need

people making products and building companies. You don't need to be doing

companies. You don't need to be doing deals all day long. And that is like a main theme that Elon talks about all the time. And so he says this right uh this

time. And so he says this right uh this quote in the book which I loved. I do

not start companies with the standpoint of what is the best risk adjusted rate of return or what I think could be successful. I just find things that need

successful. I just find things that need to happen and I try to make them happen.

I thought these things needed to get done. If the money was lost, okay, it

done. If the money was lost, okay, it was still worth trying. What is his mindset around what he chooses to spend his time and energy on?

>> He seems to attack problems that nobody else is working on that have a positive impact on the future. That's his

philosophy and mindset going into everything he does, which is, I think, unique. A lot of people assume that he's

unique. A lot of people assume that he's money motivated or a lot of people are money motivated. And you hear

money motivated. And you hear entrepreneurs all the time talk about like, oh, like this is a great business model. This is a good place to go in.

model. This is a good place to go in.

I'm going to go start self- storage because like the failure rate is so low.

And this is not how he thinks in any way, shape, or form. He literally says, "Nobody else is crazy enough to try space. So, that's the company I have to

space. So, that's the company I have to go build cuz nobody else is working on it and I can't."

>> He has a great line in here. It's like

don't start a company because you want to be an entrepreneur or because you want to make money. It is better to approach from this angle. What is a useful thing you could build that you wish existed in the world?

>> Yeah, I think there's a paradox there of like the thing that you can do that nobody else is working on is actually more likely to be successful. Like it

forces you to try to do something unique that also ends up being more valuable for everybody else because you're solving a problem. You're adding a capability to humanity. You're not just starting another commodity business of

some sort.

>> Yeah. I think it's important to point out the context in which he started like SpaceX and Tesla.

>> He's been thinking about these problems since he was in college. Literally, like

even younger as a kid. He was very influenced by sci-fi. Um, and thinking about things that are possible. He talks

about engineering as as magic. He's

like, if you build something that couldn't previously exist, that's like being a magician. And like, who wouldn't want to be a magician? Like there's a whole section, not just a chapter, like a section in this book about the value of engineering and the fact that

excellent engineers are the fundamental constraint on building and growing civilization and the constraint on advancing these companies. He's like, I have all the money I need. Like the

constraint is not capital. The

constraint is truly excellent engineers.

>> Does he go into detail how he finds truly excellent engineers?

>> Yeah, his like interview process. I

mean, part of it, a lot of it just comes from him being really good engineer himself, right? So you can take the

himself, right? So you can take the questions like he looks for evidence of exceptional ability. He says um he looks

exceptional ability. He says um he looks for people who've really solved a specific problem and he asks detailed questions about a hard technical problem that you've solved in the past. And he's

got a good [ __ ] radar. Like you

could ask those same questions or I could ask those questions and not have the same ability to scrutinize and determine who's truly excellent that he does because he's so close to all this

all the time. But that's his advantage.

He really biases towards hiring young unproven engineers and then giving them like a shocking amount of accountability and responsibility. And that's part of

and responsibility. And that's part of the benefit of the iteration rate at these companies is you can figure out who knows what works. You know, it's like at wartime how you get these like skip level promotions. You just find

competent people and like give them more responsibility as fast as you can. Like

that's how these companies operate.

>> I was just talking to Luca Ferrari who's the founder of Bennetting Spoons and he said something was interesting. He he

wants to hire young like young interns or young people and he says once you find somebody competent you just saturate their capacity >> which I thought was an interesting description. This idea of finding people

description. This idea of finding people that it it's better to have somebody like that has no habits than bad habits.

So like recruiting from existing incumbents like that's something that reappears throughout the history of entrepreneurship. Another thing that

entrepreneurship. Another thing that reappears throughout the history of entrepreneurship maybe my favorite maxim of all time from the history of entrepreneurship is that excellence is the capacity to take pain. Elon has a great way of saying this. He says, "My way of dealing with mental problems is

to make sure you really care about what you're doing and take the pain."

>> Yeah. I think it's so funny that the most productive person on earth does zero zero zero of the like meditation, journaling, morning routine. Like he

wakes up and picks up his phone and goes to war like every day. Like that's his routine.

>> He goes to war.

>> Yeah. In in this book, we have uh Isacson's biography of Elon, which you and I both have read and reread. I've

done uh an episode on on that book as well. Yeah. Yeah. He has this great

well. Yeah. Yeah. He has this great thing that he would repeat for decades that he is wired for war.

>> Yeah. Like we were trying to come up with any sort of analogous founders and like the closest thing we can come to is like Napoleon. He's not

like Napoleon. He's not analogous to other founders or sort of like operating companies as though like with standard best practices of today.

He is like moving around constantly moving people between companies like moving the fronts looking at supply lines. like it is a very unique

lines. like it is a very unique operating situation. He he has no uh he

operating situation. He he has no uh he fired his scheduler cuz he's like I want complete perfect control of my time. I

want to be able to like work on the most important thing immediately. I want to be able to move whenever I want to the problem physically. That's like one of

problem physically. That's like one of the big tenants of his productivity. I

think there's so much to be said about doing the right work at the right time.

It is a multiple order of magnitude productivity increase not a percentage.

say more about moving around resources and people.

>> I mean, one of the underrated advantages like all the time you see problems getting solved by people from other companies. And so when there was like a

companies. And so when there was like a a real constraint on Raptor engine productivity at SpaceX, the guy who the engineer who was in charge of that, a young really talented engineer, um

brought in the head of production from Model 3. And that like walked the line

Model 3. And that like walked the line with that guy and he was just like sobbing because it like the aerospace best practice even at SpaceX was like way way way behind how they thought

about production.

>> The guy from the Model 3, he was just like, "How is this your most efficient thing? like we can there's so much room

thing? like we can there's so much room for improvement because of what they learned on Model 3 production which is like >> produce or die very very quickly. Um and

that's why SpaceX has like reached this volume production that >> nobody in aerospace ever has.

>> So we have a friend named Max Olsen who's writing a book on SpaceX that is not released yet but he just did this excellent essay that me and you both loved and we actually printed out.

There's a bunch of notes in front of us.

>> It's he he calls this uh these memes that spread through Elon's companies and he at the end of the essay he has these five memes. Number one was tip of the

five memes. Number one was tip of the spear focus. Always identify and attack

spear focus. Always identify and attack the biggest limiter. Don't spread effort across secondary problems. Laser in on the single constraint that if removed would unlock everything downstream. This

is my favorite line from this section.

This is true at every level. Each SpaceX

site has a single dominating objective, right? To simpl simplify prioritization.

right? To simpl simplify prioritization.

A NASA manager who visited SpaceX observed that when a new problem appears, it looks like a flash mob appears in the hallway. Yeah, I that essay is excellent and it asks a really

important question which is you know a lot of people have talked about and this book is really an answer to like how does Elon get so much done. This essay

in this book is really an examination of like why is SpaceX so special? Like how

has nobody been able to replicate what they've been able to do? The path that they've been on has been proven for years. Like there's lots of people with

years. Like there's lots of people with more engineers and more money. So like

why can't they catch up? Like they're

not even really getting closer. like

there's been more mission failures at Boeing since SpaceX. Like this is not it's not good. And so this is unpacking that and the answer the deepest answer is like the culture and the habits and the routines, the selection of the

people and then the memes that spread through the organization, how they work and how they attack problems. And so I think that is a great description of like the whole organization learning to operate like Elon does, which is a

combination of two extremely important skills, which is like find the most important thing to work on and then absolutely attack it. Like what's the limiting factor? Go apehit on it

limiting factor? Go apehit on it immediately. I know he's mission

immediately. I know he's mission oriented. He's like, I have a mission in

oriented. He's like, I have a mission in life. This is what I want to do. But

life. This is what I want to do. But

does he talk about anything other than I'm going to do this and essentially persevere through pain?

Oh, he's got some absolutely killer lines about this. Like I don't I don't ever give up. I'd have to be dead or completely incapacitated. Um the one you

completely incapacitated. Um the one you just read about like my way of dealing with mental problems is to just care what I'm care about what I'm doing and take the pain. Come hell or high water, we're going to get this done. Like

there's so much unlocked when you have a mission that you know you would never give up on. Like so few entrepreneurs I think would make the bets that Elon has made because they're not truly purely as

ideologically and philosophically motivated as he is. Like to think about, you know, on his third company, Tesla

and SpaceX, fourth company, to start with $200 million and put your entire like generational wealth and reputation,

maybe even more importantly, on the line is like, how many entrepreneurs that you know that have risked going back to zero and public humiliation once they reach a

9 figure net worth? Like he's the only one I can name. Uh, and that happened at like the the lowest of the low point.

And he he was all in before he asked anybody else to put in any money, $200 million into these own companies. And

that ability to not give up and not even think about giving up and just burn the boats and keep pushing and keep pushing comes from this maniacal devotion to the mission because

it is a truly important mission.

getting us to a new planet could mean the difference between like consciousness continuing or not continuing. Like if you are truly in on

continuing. Like if you are truly in on that mission, of course it's worth risking public humiliation. Of course

it's worth risking $200 million. Of

course it's worth working 100our weeks and living in the factory and recruiting anybody that you possibly can and demanding the most of them and firing anybody who's like feels like they're slowing down progress. It's a really

incredible test actually to give yourself that like if you can imagine giving up on what you're doing, would you like should you even start it? I

know you talk like this all the time like death is my exit strategy. You'll

pry this mic from cold dead hands. Like

you are unquestionably on the mission of your life and that's a really I think it's a really interesting question to reflect on.

>> He talks about burning the boats constantly and I think he did this from like day one like even with like zip 2.

Um I do think there is some kind of like advance very advanced understanding of human nature that if you truly are putting your back against the wall and not giving yourself any options like you will come up with ideas or like push

yourself to in in a manner into an extreme manner in which you just can't if you if you're optimizing for like optionality or it's like oh if this doesn't work out I have like a plan B. I

love Jeff Bezos's quote on this. Bezos

is like the uh plan B should be to make plan A work.

>> Yes. I think like Schwarzenegger says the same thing and I think it's worth like Zip 2 is a good example. Most

people don't like remember that he started a company at whatever 20 um and went all in on it unbelievably hard. It

was a little he was a little actually but like he was doing these insane like surges and deadlines and things. He set

their initial launch date uh for PayPal on like Saturday of Thanksgiving weekend and he's like get your ass in his office. Like we have a deadline. Like

office. Like we have a deadline. Like

why do we have to launch on Thanksgiving? cuz I said we're launching

Thanksgiving? cuz I said we're launching on Thanksgiving weekend. Like, get in here, work 24 hours. Like, let's get it done. It's been an operating principle

done. It's been an operating principle that is an outcome of who he is and has been consistent through all of these companies. I want to tell you about the

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He talks a lot in the book or you profiled him in the book about fear. He

says feel the fear, do it anyways. Look

fear straight in the eye and it will disappear. The nature of fear is that

disappear. The nature of fear is that people don't look at it. Look at it directly and it will be gone. These are

direct quotes from Elon. When

something's important enough and you believe in it enough, you do it in spite of fear. It is normal to feel fear. If

of fear. It is normal to feel fear. If

you don't feel fear, you definitely have something mentally wrong. Just feel it and let the importance of your mission drive you to do it anyway. I think the

purpose-driven nature of these businesses is a extremely powerful piece of their success because that's not just Elon. It attracts people who feel the

Elon. It attracts people who feel the same way about the mission and who want to be pushed. Like how many people go into their jobs and they're like, I really I want this company to just ring all of the potential out of me. I want

to give everything possible to this mission. It's not how most people think.

mission. It's not how most people think.

Um but it is how the people who go work at these companies think. And that's an incredibly powerful thing for the to drive the success of the company, but it's also great for the people who want to opt into that environment. Like

that's why Tesla's kicking the rest of the auto industry's ass. like and will continue to.

>> Yeah, that was interesting when I asked you like what what do you hope people take away like if you know they buy the book, they they read it or they give it to somebody else. Like what is the point? Like what do you want to happen

point? Like what do you want to happen at the end and what was your answer to that?

>> I have many hopes for this book, but the overarching one is like I hope that this book can generate like 1 million Musks.

Like I don't mean go follow his life blueprint. I don't mean start an

blueprint. I don't mean start an electric car company, but I mean figure out a unique problem that nobody else is working on and dedicate your life to solving it. Like a thing that adds a new

solving it. Like a thing that adds a new capability to humanity. Build a new thing. Biggest lesson of Elon's life to

thing. Biggest lesson of Elon's life to me is like we are all capable of so much more than we think.

>> That is what you said to me.

>> He's special, but he's not superhuman.

He's just figured out how to get an unbelievable amount out of himself. And

you know, he had a lot of disadvantages.

Like a lot of people listening to this are going to have a lot better hand to start life with than Elon did.

>> Explain some of the disadvantages cuz a lot of people think that he like came he was like privileged is something you'll hear like a lot of his crit say.

>> Yeah, I don't think that's a particularly like well-informed take.

Um, his dad was an engineer and an entrepreneur and he had ups and downs in his career, but the more defining trait of his dad was that he's uh, I've never met the dude, but like by

all accounts in the Isacson biography, he did have like a lot of surface area with him. And from accounts from Kimell

with him. And from accounts from Kimell and Elon, he was like a narcissistic, abusive manipulative grandiose.

>> I think I was going to say like compulsive liar.

>> Compulsive liar. Yeah. Fabricated a lot of things. Um,

of things. Um, he had brilliance, but he was also really dark. Um, he was unreliable and

really dark. Um, he was unreliable and he would lie to the kids all the time. I

mean, Elon at like eight would stand in the living room and be bered by his father for hours. It's not just like a mean comment. um he'd scream at his face

mean comment. um he'd scream at his face and call him worthless and useless and stupid and like as a young young boy.

Like imagine what that the fuel that that fills you with as a kid. And the

I mean and Elon figured out how to like make the demons pull the plow. Like he

turned that into something really productive and really positive for the most part. And there's another case

most part. And there's another case where he got beat up very badly. like

this not like lost a fight like stomped by a gang of kids and was in the hospital for like a week unrecognizable face and his dad sided with the bullies and like called him stupid for picking a

fight and that is that is an unbelievably brutal place to start. Um

and so I think some of these rumors about like how privileged he was actually come from his dad lying and trying to take credit for some of his success. Um and they've had a strain

success. Um and they've had a strain relationship and all kinds of weird stuff has happened over the last couple decades.

Elon arrived and as an immigrant to Canada at 17, paid his way through college, graduated with student debt, dropped out of Stanford uh graduate school to start his first company in the

early internet boom and like basically made I forget the exact first number 22 million.

>> He said it's a great line in the book cuz they sold for 307 million in cash to compact computer.

>> Yep.

>> And he goes, "My bank account went from $5,000 to$22 million and $5,000."

>> Yeah. which is just like he's like standing in the mailbox holding this check being like wow. Um and yeah that that like paid off his student debt and so he made his first like fortune by himself and in that era was like he said he couldn't afford an apartment and an

office so he leased an office and he showered at the YMCA like worked constantly. Um all he had was a laptop

constantly. Um all he had was a laptop and like some books and student debt.

like that's his starting place and he earned his first seed money from and everything most of what he made from Zipu he rolled right back into starting like the week later starting X.com which

became PayPal.

>> Yeah. There's a great line in the book I think he might have been in college where he's like he figured he's either going to be broke or wealthy but nothing in between.

>> Yeah. And he rolled that dice like a bunch of times. you do a really great job of breaking down the ideas and essentially under like these headings of maxims and you know I'm a sucker for maxims. Uh one of them actually came

from Founders Podcast which I appreciate and it says if you know your business from A to Z there's no problem that you can't solve. Why did you apply that to

can't solve. Why did you apply that to Elon?

>> I started with the the full list of maxims according to me which is like 107 and I checked I went down the list and I checked all the ones that I felt like Elon was a good example of which is like 75. Mh.

75. Mh.

>> Um, and then I went down again and was like, what are the ones that he's like could be an iconic exemplar of? And it

was like 15 or 16. So, I think that's a good testament to like the not just Elon as a well-rounded entrepreneur, but also like the ability of the maxims to describe the traits that become an

incredible entrepreneur. Um,

incredible entrepreneur. Um, the business from A to Z. I think Sam Murray is the one who like best exemplifies this like the banana man.

>> Yeah. The book so people know it's called uh is it >> the fish that ate the whale? Fish that

ate the whale. Uh, it's one of my favorite books. It's by Rich Cohen. I've

favorite books. It's by Rich Cohen. I've

read it like three times.

>> It's an incredible book of like high agency and deep expertise. And this guy was like running a banana empire from the farms in, you know, all that stuff.

And so Elon is a like the modern manufacturing example of that. He lives

lived on the line. He goes to the problems. He has a really deep understanding of not just the product, but like the physics behind the product.

There's a so many stories of him having this deep intuition for what the materials in a thing can do, where the threshold is and pushing engineers and designs over and over and over to like

get to that failure point and find what the true like most elegant, most simple, most efficient version of the product could be.

>> Can you give us some examples of that?

>> One is the thickness of the stainless steel welds on Starship, right? And so

the design engineers gave one number and then he went and talked to like the guys actually doing the welding and they were kind of like we think maybe like 4 1/2 mm would be like getting to sketchy and

he's like let's try 4 mm and 4 mm worked. Even the move to stainless steel

worked. Even the move to stainless steel like most rockets previously had been made with carbon fiber um is just really hard to work with and it's big and he had this intuition and knew that stainless steel at low temperatures

gains strength. And so once a rocket is

gains strength. And so once a rocket is actually up in orbit, it's stronger, which is an easy thing to forget. And so

he's like pushing people over and over again to like use things that are cheaper, use things that are easier to work with, reduce the moving parts. My

summary of Elon is he's David Gogggin's level like intensity. He's Richard

Fineman's level of like unconventional technical brilliance, and he's Napoleon's strategic genius and insane bias to

action. Those three traits combined make

action. Those three traits combined make him just incredibly singular and the volume of time that he puts in. Like

even if you put in this amount of time trying to know your business from A to Z as without that deep technical intuition or sense of the fundamentals of the physics and the materials like you

couldn't make the calls that he's making or you couldn't push on the things that he's pushing out. And of course he's not always right and of course the engineers are always the ones like doing the highest volume of the real work. But as

you say like the founder is the guardian of the company's soul and he is there to raise the bar and push people and I think he has this really keen sense of

I love the line so much failure is essentially irrelevant unless it's catastrophic and so he pushes these things to the breaking point pushes the materials pushes the designs he wants to reach the

point where he knows for sure that it's the most efficient version of the design because the mistake or the failure that reveals that information is going to pay off a million times. We're going to make

10,000 of these engines. And I don't want an inefficiency in there that we're going to replicate 10,000 times. I want

to make the failure. I want to fail 500 times on every single design decision so that I know that we have the most elegant thing as we scale up and ramp up.

>> Yeah. I think one of the things that will surprise people is just how much uh like I I said in the Isacson uh the episode I did in the Isacson book, it's like half the book is just him yelling at people to simplify and to delete and

there's a maximum for this is like genius has the fewest moving parts and you see this with the there's that meme of like I think this the raptor engine design and there's like three different ones over time and it's like this convoluted mess and it just gets like

the simple this beautiful simplicity.

you just mentioned it where like um I was reading about the the decision to do stainless steel instead of carbon fiber >> and like well to do carbon fiber it's more expensive it's harder to work with you have to build in like giant

autoclave he's like >> we can weld stainless steel in a tent.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean literally building these rockets in a tent in a parking lot. Um you know which is a very it's a

lot. Um you know which is a very it's a very Elon thing of like let's do just what we have to do to make progress on the product. I want to linger on on

the product. I want to linger on on failure for a second because I think it's a really underrated piece. I think

these some of these maxims and some of these taglines that Elon uses if you kind of put them next to each other show this pattern of he's like he's designing these organ organizations to create

small failures as quickly as possible.

Right? So, um if you're not adding back in 10% of the things you removed, you're not taking out enough, right? So like

fail. That is that is a a mandate to go create something that doesn't work and then figure out why it didn't work and just add that little bit back in so that we know it's the most

efficient version of the design. When he

sets deadlines, he's like, I want to pick a deadline that I'm 50% likely to make. We're going to miss half our

make. We're going to miss half our deadlines. And I'm totally fine with

deadlines. And I'm totally fine with that because it means we'll be moving as fast as we possibly can and we're going to make some deadlines that nobody thought we were going to make. If we're

making 100% of our deadlines, then they're way too far out because we'll always consume at least the amount of time that we give ourselves. And I think people have this inherent bias, especially like if your job is on the

line or if you want to like look good in front of your peers or you just want your your company to work. You don't

want to be seen as failing. Like you

make so many decisions, engineers in general, like I don't want my product to fail. I don't want my part to fail. And

fail. I don't want my part to fail. And

he's so much of what these cultures reinforce and these these sort of maxims reinforce is like you should be failing.

He says when he hires people like if you don't if you can't tell me the four ways you [ __ ] something up then you weren't the one doing the real work. Um

>> I was literally searching for that quote right now.

>> Yeah, it's a it is a great one. But it

it all of those kind of line up behind like if you're not engineering your organization to have these small failures, you're creating this is the antifragile idea like you're creating

this sort of fragility and this inefficiency in the global thing if you don't learn to fail along the way and iterate extremely quickly towards a better product.

>> I had a conversation with Michael Dells, one of the first episodes of the show and he was talking about that too. He's

like, "Listen, when you're inventing a new business using new technology and a new business model, there's no playbook.

You can't go read a book and says, "Here's how you do it." And he's like, "And you can't even hire people from adjacent industries cuz they're just going to do it the way they used to do it." So, he's like, "The only way to do

it." So, he's like, "The only way to do it is to experiment in," I think he used the word into it >> uh yourself. He's like, "You have a hypothesis and then you test the hypothesis." And the point he was

hypothesis." And the point he was making, he's like, "So, therefore, you want mistakes. You actually want to make

want mistakes. You actually want to make mistakes because that's the way you learn, but you want to make them small and you don't want to make the same mistake over and over again." Which I again is like an echo of what you were just saying about Elon. I guess this ties to the part of the book that's

right in front of me where it's clear that Elon's companies he wants to use reality as a validation tool. So he

talks about that he's like getting to the truth is really important. So he

says in business and personal life wishful thinking causes a lot of mistakes. You have to ask whether

mistakes. You have to ask whether something is true or not. Wishful

thinking is a natural human tendency.

Again these are direct quotes from Elon.

It is a challenge to tell the difference between believing in a new idea and persevering or pursuing an unrealistic dream. The real test of any startup is

dream. The real test of any startup is how well it responds to adversity and adapts. When most things start out, they

adapts. When most things start out, they don't make much sense. But as long as you doubt quickly, you can make the company work. Being tenacious and

company work. Being tenacious and superfocused on the truth is extremely important. You should look for feedback

important. You should look for feedback from all sources. The iteration towards reality as the teacher is it was another like great element of Max Olsen's essay.

Um, and Naval is super articulate about this as like applying David Deutsch's ideas to company building. It's like

your goal as a company is to discover new knowledge, which means interact with reality, and then instantiate it into a product. And this cycle of iteration and

product. And this cycle of iteration and experimentation is how you check against reality, right? This is how all

reality, right? This is how all knowledge is created. It's it's gene mutation and selection. It's scientific

hypothesis and testing. Um, but people don't usually think about their organization in terms of like how much new knowledge is being created, how many experiments are we running, how quickly and how cheaply can the failures be created.

>> Yeah, has another great line. If you

have beliefs are incompatible with the rocket getting to orbit, the rocket will not get to orbit. Physics is a harsh judge. The myself repeats over and over

judge. The myself repeats over and over again like physics is a law. Everything

else is a recommendation.

>> Another branch off of that is like physics doesn't care about your feelings. Um, and so that is a line that

feelings. Um, and so that is a line that he repeats over and over again when people are like, "How can you be, you know, so quick to to judge people or to fire people or to like get the team and he's like, "We have we have one test. We

have one bar to clear like does the rocket fly and how much payload can we get to orbit?" Like there is one metric that we're optimizing for and I will do what I have to do to march us towards

that piece to clear that bar. I mean,

this is where the Asperers comes out, you know, like in a truly advantaged way. Like, he says being the need to be

way. Like, he says being the need to be liked is like this huge disadvantage that so many people have and I do not have that. He straight up says like, I

have that. He straight up says like, I do not have that weakness. And Peter

Teal has an interesting observation about that. He's like, why are so many

about that. He's like, why are so many of the successful tech founders like seem to be somewhere on the spectrum?

Like, why do they all have this sort of biological advantage in dismissing the opinions of others? What does that say about like

others? What does that say about like our society that that's a skill that you need to have in order to be an innovator and build something new and build a great organization?

>> So I guess that leads into the next thing I was going to ask you about which is the algorithm >> which is the first step of the algorith algorithm is what >> question requirements make your requirements less dumb is is like

specifically how he says it a lot and there are so many requirements I think it's a really that was a hardearned first step.

>> Yeah. explain what he had to go like how he learned >> the the most common error of a smart engineer is to optimize something that shouldn't exist and there are many places that requirements come from right

sometimes they come from intern inside the organization sometimes they came from a team sometimes they came from the legal sometimes they came from a design partner like in NASA like if you're going to shoot up a rocket and the capsule of the vehicle is going to like

dock with the space station they have all kinds of requirements about your latches and like how things go in if you're going to launch from a specific pad you've got requirements around sound or timing or all these things and he

he's like so much money and time and effort is wasted trying to accommodate requirements that don't make any [ __ ] sense in the first place. So the first thing to do is like shorten your list of design requirements so that you've got

the maximum possible space to play in.

And there's so many times uh many stories and the latch is like a a true one that's in Max's essay which is like the requirement said you got to buy this specific like omni latch from an

aerospace company made of these materials and it was like super expensive and they sort of questioned that requirement and they were like all right well as fine as as long as it like does this and this it's fine and so they

bought offtheshelf parts from like McMaster car and they did the job just fine which were like two orders of magnitude cheaper. There's also times

magnitude cheaper. There's also times when the requirement is legal or regulatory and he'll assign somebody.

He's like go it'll take an a year or a year and a half to like get this permit and he's like assigned somebody. He's

like go fly to this office and sit in this office until you get permission like signed on this sheet. Come back.

Don't come back without a signed sheet or get fired. Like that is a way to question the requirement or or a dismissal or a waiver of this requirement because it doesn't make any sense. And there's there's things that

sense. And there's there's things that he's like, we are forced to comply with so many regulations from 20 years ago, 50 years ago that just don't make any damn sense and they're not helping the consumer. So, let's remove as many of

consumer. So, let's remove as many of them as we can so that we can design the best possible product or the for the cheapest possible price. What's the

second? Delete, delete, delete, simplify. Um, there's a I mean the

simplify. Um, there's a I mean the canonical line about this is like the best part is no part, the best process is no process. And I don't know exactly the number, but the like the the

number of times combining parts has happened over the course of the Model 3 or eliminating them. Like I think when he started there were over 10,000 parts and that has come down steadily as he's combined parts because every time two

things need to be attached. Not only are there two things that need to be attached, but maybe they need to be glued, maybe they need to be screwed, bolted, riveted, whatever. The the way the metals interact needs to happen.

They need to be actually assembled. And

then there's like a tolerance that could change whether other things fit. It's

like the number of expenses, changes and risks that come from additional parts or additional attachments is so so so high.

Simplicity gets you both reliability and low cost. That is it. The best part is

low cost. That is it. The best part is no part. Simplicity delivers both

no part. Simplicity delivers both reliability and low cost. And so between those two things, you have to delete as much as humanly possible. And so he goes to great

possible. And so he goes to great lengths to combine parts, simplify things. He says go ultra hardcore on

things. He says go ultra hardcore on deletion and simplification. That's how

you see that like Raptor meme where things get more and more and more simple. And that's how the Model 3 has

simple. And that's how the Model 3 has gotten simpler, more reliable, cheaper to produce and better. And the maybe the most famous example of this is his um

decision to cast entire the front third and the back third. And he got that idea from toy cars. Like toys are cheap, reliable, scale quickly. how do they make them? Like let me let me steal an

make them? Like let me let me steal an idea from this industry. And it turned out that nobody had ever made casting machines that big. And so he >> Okay, so this is an important point part point part point part point part point part point part point part point part point part point part point because then he combines these ideas together. So we

just talked about first principles thinking which you know I think he was the one basically popularized it. Now

everybody talks about it very few people actually do it. But in that book, and I actually made I clipped this from one of my episodes because that was so interesting >> where he's like at Tesla, he's just playing with like a little toy Tesla

>> and he and he talked about like learning from Legos and like how precise it has to be and they're like why can't we just cast the entire I think underbody and he was like cuz there's no casting machine

that's that big. He's like well how many he breaks down how many companies make casting machines? I think there was like

casting machines? I think there was like something like six in the world.

>> Five they he's like well let's go talk to them about it. Five said no, one said maybe, and Elon goes, I took that maybe as a yes.

>> Yeah.

>> And it greatly simplifih simplified like the production. There's another story uh

the production. There's another story uh from the books, and I think he talked about this on a couple podcasts, too, where it's like >> the they they had a uh when they were trying to solve production hell Tesla,

>> uh they had to literally knock a wall.

They were throwing out so many robots and disposing them so fast, they knocked a huge wall in the side of the factory.

He just threw out like I I forgot how many hundreds of robots cuz he found weird weird [ __ ] like hey this one robot picks up this piece hands it to another robot that robot then turns around and

hands it to another one. He's like

>> why don't this robot just hand it to that robot why is this guy in the middle and it adds complexity. He's like just rip it out of there.

>> Yeah. And that's in the production system. Yeah. I mean he this is why

system. Yeah. I mean he this is why automate is the last step of the algorithm >> cuz he used to do that first, right?

>> Yeah. He his original vision for Tesla is like we're going to automate everything. this is going to be like a

everything. this is going to be like a pure robot, you know, dreadnot autonomous line. And he's like, that was

autonomous line. And he's like, that was a huge mistake. We didn't we didn't have it refined. Like we we didn't have the

it refined. Like we we didn't have the design refined. We didn't have the

design refined. We didn't have the manufacturing design. We hadn't

manufacturing design. We hadn't questioned the requirements. We hadn't

deleted enough parts. We should not have automated until all of these other steps had been gone through. Uh and he said there's many times where he did every

step in exactly reverse order. something

was like automated and then tried it and done faster and then optimized and then ended up getting deleted because nobody had questioned the requirements is that's why we do these things in this order over and over and over and over

again and oh there's a great story of taking uh Starlink was like a a mess right it was 10x too expensive and they were building onetenth of how many they needed so like two orders of magnitude

off success he's like I've had it I'm fixing this this is now the bottleneck he grabs Mark Jenosa which is one of his like super talented early hires from SpaceX. This is a rocket scientist. This

SpaceX. This is a rocket scientist. This

is not a guy who's ever worked on satellites. He grabs a team that of

satellites. He grabs a team that of engineers that he trusts. They fly up to Seattle. They fire the entire Starship

Seattle. They fire the entire Starship leadership uh or Starlink leadership team. And they sit down in a war room,

team. And they sit down in a war room, which I think is an underrated like tactic. And they start running the

tactic. And they start running the algorithm. What is the first principles

algorithm. What is the first principles of like satellite design? How simple can we make this thing? Why? Why? Why? Why?

Why does this exist? Why are these two things so far apart? Why do we need this much energy? Why do we need this

much energy? Why do we need this manufacturing process? And over the

manufacturing process? And over the course of like a few months they make this two order of magnitude leap like margin co is people who have never encountered this design before. But just

by applying the algorithm and working with maniacal urgency towards this extremely high design bar they created this product that's now you know if it was a standalone business it would be worth tens of billions of dollars.

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I did this episode of founders uh called How Elon Works. And I think in the description, maybe in the intro, I was like, listen, I can usually I've read 400 of these [ __ ] biographies. Like I

can usually find an historical analogy to an entrepreneur living today where like that person was very similar to this person maybe was 50 years ago 100 years ago. I think Elman's singular and

years ago. I think Elman's singular and I think he said he was like singular living or dead. I can't really find a historical analogy to it. It's like if that's the case >> and he repeats he says this is direct

quote or not. There's a paraphrase of a quote from Elon in that book where it's just like I would say the algorithm so much and I repeat it so many times that people in the meeting would start to be able to predict what's coming out of my goddamn mouth.

>> Yeah.

>> So why don't we think about this guy doesn't have he he's a singular character in the the history of entrepreneurship and he repeats this over and over again like maybe we should spend a little bit more time and we should think about this over and over

again to the point that was a great illustration of the story. Um I think the the maximum here is like repetition is persuasive. Yes. So like you have to

is persuasive. Yes. So like you have to repeat one thing that's that's that that is reoccurring throughout a lot of these founders like they have they had to identify a handful of principles. If we

go through all the notes, all the books, everything we have in front of us, it's not 25 ideas. He's got a handful of principles that he uses over and over and over again. And I love this idea that he built like this almost like this. It's almost like another form of a

this. It's almost like another form of a meme. It's like this operating system

meme. It's like this operating system where there's these four steps and we can apply it in space, in cars, in tunnels, and everything else. Let's go

to step number three.

>> Step number three is simplify and optimize. Um, which is I think that's

optimize. Um, which is I think that's what most engineers just like do as a standard. Um, but that is the thing that

standard. Um, but that is the thing that like you should only do after you know for sure that the thing exists and you know for sure you've got your requirements as clean and short as you possibly can. The other thing that's

possibly can. The other thing that's actually really important about the requirements is that a single individual's name has to be attached to every one of them. He's huge on direct individual accountability. And so

individual accountability. And so there's no such thing as like a requirement from legal. There's like a requirement from JAM in legal so that you can go ask her and be like, why does this requirement exist? Please explain

it very thoroughly. Can we throw it out?

Etc. Right? And so many times you found requirements that were like created by an intern who left the company 2 years ago or a department where nobody in the department actually agrees with the requirement. Um, so once you get there,

requirement. Um, so once you get there, it's like the the very normal engineering work of like, let's figure out the trade-offs. Let's optimize this thing.

>> Yeah, there was a great um story from Tesla where you had the battery pack and they had something like like a layer on top of it. This was for sound and one one part of Tesla thought it was for sound and the other thought it was for

like fire prevention. Am I remembering this correctly?

>> Yeah, like the fire prevention team thought it was for sound baffling and the sound team thought it was for fire protection. Um, and like once that was

protection. Um, and like once that was established, they actually they tested it. They put a mic in the car and like

it. They put a mic in the car and like nobody could tell the difference.

They're like delete.

>> Okay.

>> But it was the bottleneck at that particular time.

>> But like again, it's like this department said this and this department said that. They're not agreeing. But

said that. They're not agreeing. But

then I think not to skip over this part cuz I think it's the most important part. Elon's solution was very

part. Elon's solution was very >> like simple. It's like, well, does it reduce inside the cabin? Is it louder if this thing's not here? How are we going to figure that out? We'll just put a

[ __ ] microphone and we'll test it.

>> We'll test it. And 6 hours later, the part is deleted. and like this whole thing that was slowing down, you know, they they pulled more robots off the line and it sped up. And that increased the throughput of the entire production

line, then it was a millions, maybe tens of millions of dollars worth of decision. Like he he says there are

decision. Like he he says there are times when a single half hour meeting has added hundred million to the enterprise value of Tesla. Every single

minute of thinking is like worth a million dollars. A high quality minute

million dollars. A high quality minute of thinking. And these tools are the

of thinking. And these tools are the things that he does in those minutes that actually have that kind of effect, which is to your point of like this is a singular greatest entrepreneur of our

generation. This is the thing that he

generation. This is the thing that he talks about most often. Maybe it's

useful.

>> Well, I I hadn't made that episode in probably like 6 months and I was listening to it again to prepare for this conversation with you and I'm like, I should listen to this every month.

Like it's just like it's an hour and a half. You can listen at 1. It's an hour

half. You can listen at 1. It's an hour if you're at 1.5x speed or whatever it is. It's like, oh, I forgot like some of

is. It's like, oh, I forgot like some of these ideas. And I think that's where

these ideas. And I think that's where the repetition is so important.

>> Yeah. And that's why I I really design all my books to be read and reread. Like

I want them to be handbooks and reference guides. And I love when I see

reference guides. And I love when I see like a just a beat to [ __ ] copy that's been in and out of somebody's backpack like every day for years and is like dogeared and flagged and all highlight

on every page. Like these ideas, repetition doesn't boil the prayer.

Repetition is persuasive. like you have to work to install these ideas in your head so that they're there when you need them so that you ask the right question or have the right instinct as an operator when you're confronted with one of these decisions.

>> Are there any other interesting stories that you can think of that come from the third step of the algorithm?

>> I think the third step is the least interesting honestly. Um I think the

interesting honestly. Um I think the like question requirements and delete are probably 80% of the lift. I think

the simplify and optimize, the accelerate, and the automate are the things that people leap to naturally.

And the algorithm is really designed to get them to, you know, sharpen the axe before they start chopping down the tree or be sure you're chopping down the right tree. Um, be sure chopping down

right tree. Um, be sure chopping down the tree is the right next step at all anyway. What's step four in the

anyway. What's step four in the algorithm?

>> Accelerate. Go faster. However fast

you're going, you can go faster.

>> Is there anything else to it?

>> Not really.

>> So, just go faster. He has that line where we uh what do you say a maniacal sense of urgency is going to be our operating principle.

>> Yeah. But but like the example here I would use is probably going to the tunneling machines. He's like if you

tunneling machines. He's like if you want to accelerate tunnel like the machines that are currently tunneling even in state-of-the-art tunneling are nowhere near their power or thermal limits. So just like crank them up go

limits. So just like crank them up go put make them go as fast as they can.

Like can the ro the interesting thing about when everything is actually automated is like how fast can the robots move is a way higher limit on that than how fast can humans move. And

so if you actually do accelerate everything he's been talking about this a bunch with AI like if you can remove the human human element and then you can automate everything you can do it to a degree that is like superhuman level of speed.

>> You have a great way to describe this in the book. I'm just going to read this is

the book. I'm just going to read this is Elon's description of step four from the book which I I love. And so he's talking he's like then and only then in step four, accelerate cycle time. Once you're

moving in the right direction and moving efficiently, you're moving too slow. Go

faster. You can always make things go faster. But do not go faster until

faster. But do not go faster until you've worked on the other three things first. I mistakenly spent a lot of time

first. I mistakenly spent a lot of time accelerating processes that I later realized should have been deleted.

Speeding This is hilarious. Speeding up

something that shouldn't exist is absurd. If you're digging your grave,

absurd. If you're digging your grave, don't dig it faster. Stop digging.

>> Yeah. This is in the designing the organization section of the book and I feel like it is really underrated that he applies the algorithm to his own companies. Like he minimizes the

companies. Like he minimizes the distance between like the designers, the engineers, the manufacturing engineers and gets rid of as much stuff in his companies as he possibly can. He makes

the companies go faster. He questions

the requirements of of the the companies and the structure themselves. And you

can he talks about how you can see the flaws in the organization in the product. So if there's a a battery team

product. So if there's a a battery team building a box for the battery, but a chassis in the car right above it, like they'll put a lid on the battery because it makes sense to design a complete

battery with a lid. There's a car on top of it. So you don't actually need a lid

of it. So you don't actually need a lid on the battery case. you end up with like a box in a box where the most efficient thing to do is like have enough interactions between all those people that you are not duplicating

parts or responsibilities or materials cuz if you allow individual pockets to make too many optimization decisions, they'll optimize for their own tiny unit but not how the unit exists in part of

the broader system. You'll have like a bunch of disperate metals that have to come together or a bunch of insane design decisions that don't make the full system optimal as a whole product.

Yeah. He talks about the opposite of that. I think he calls it ivory tower

that. I think he calls it ivory tower engineering. Yeah. He's like, "I'm going

engineering. Yeah. He's like, "I'm going to design a product or process. I'm

going to throw it over the wall and you can engineer and manufacture it." And

he's like, "No, you have to be able to the engineer and the manufacturer should be able to call our designer like why did you do it this way?"

>> Yeah. Going back to the iteration speed and the number of failures that you can correct and identify. Um, you know, moving the the Raptor production, he had their whole team move their desks to the

Raptor production line. So they're as they're like sitting there designing or working on it, whatever they're working on, they're like watching the machine, the engine get manufactured like right next to them and they're like

dialoguing. This is like the feedback,

dialoguing. This is like the feedback, the bandwidth between the people actually moving the atoms and the people designing the product are super super

super high. I mean, I think he talks

super high. I mean, I think he talks about traditional aerospace is like designing a file that then gets parted out that gets goes to subcontractors and those subcontractors delegated to subcontractors and you have to go five

companies down before you find a guy who's actually like cutting metal or touching the material and then it kind of goes all the way back up and everybody's adding like complexity and confusion and overhead and cost and

profit and that's part of the reason why SpaceX was able to do something. there's

like orders of magnitude more efficient and cost effective. Um, and that's before you even get to the fact that they're like iterating so quickly on the design that they're removing all this unnecessary stuff.

>> All right, let's go to step five. I

think I mistakenly said there's four steps. I've done 10 episodes on this

steps. I've done 10 episodes on this guy. I should notice by now. So, let's

guy. I should notice by now. So, let's

go to step five. Step five is automate.

It is the holy grail, but you want to be sure you're automating the right thing because automation itself, the process of creating the automation is expensive um and difficult to adapt. So yes,

things should be automated, but that it should only be automated after you've rigorously applied the other steps of the algorithm all the way through.

>> Uh you just mentioned something I think is a huge like theme that runs throughout like his entire career that he wants to control everything always.

>> Yes.

>> Can you talk about like why that is so important?

>> Well, he had a tough experience in the early days of Tesla. I think like sharing responsibility or power over this over this company and the beginning of Tesla was kind of a

messy experience. like he was the main

messy experience. like he was the main investor and chairman, but he wasn't actually CEO. But he spent so much time

actually CEO. But he spent so much time like getting deeply involved in the product and like trying to drive a good outcome there that reached the bar that he had for his vision for electric cars

that it just didn't really work in the long term and the company was heading down this this tough path and wasn't really making the kind of progress that it needed to. And so he talks about his

like reluctance to step in as CEO of Tesla. He's like, "If I didn't do that,

Tesla. He's like, "If I didn't do that, the company would have died. I provided

most of the money. I've been as involved as he could be in creating the actual like contributing to the product, but eventually he's like, "If this is going

to work, I've got to I've got to take control of it and I've got to go all in on it."

on it." >> Yeah. He talked about the mistake of

>> Yeah. He talked about the mistake of trying to because originally they used like the Lotus, right?

>> Yeah.

>> The Lotus chassis, I think, what it was.

He's like, "We shouldn't just design this from a blank sheet of paper. It's

always better if you're going to do something new like just design from a blank sheet of paper.

>> It is a really good lesson and and actually a big theme of his is like go for the strong form of the technology.

Don't try to adapt what came before. Try

to like think in limits. Go to first principles and build like a a true leap in technology that totally leaves behind

the constraints of of the past not just the past sort of designs but the past entire supply chain. Like even if you were counting on the existing suppliers in the industry, it's gonna be really

tough to like fully innovate in the way that is possible. If you start with a truly clean sheet of paper, you question every requirement. You start with like

every requirement. You start with like the platonic limit of like what is the maximum ideal possible product and then work backwards from that. How do how close can we get to that? Not start with

an analogy of like how can we be 10% better than what exists in the field?

How can we be 20% better? Like what does perfection look like? What is the absolute ideal? and how close can we get

absolute ideal? and how close can we get to that? And if anybody gives you a

to that? And if anybody gives you a reason why you can't do that, start asking why. Start drilling down, start

asking why. Start drilling down, start questioning requirements, start pushing on those assumptions.

>> Well, I think it's important to like hammer on this point though because it's obvious if you read like if you just study history entrepreneurs like they're all they all wind up at the same place.

It's like as vertically integrated as possible. They're going to control as

possible. They're going to control as much of their business, their raw materials and everything. And what I couldn't help but notice is this is how the car industry started. Like

>> Henry Ford, they made almost all their parts themselves. Obviously, they were

parts themselves. Obviously, they were making it by hand. This is before he figured out how to massproduce a car and that was like his his main idea.

>> There was no auto supply chain.

>> Oh, you start doing it and then you have control. He's also obsessed with

control. He's also obsessed with control. He end up buying out his

control. He end up buying out his investors. I think in 1919, Henry Ford

investors. I think in 1919, Henry Ford owned 100 By 1919, he owned 100% of Ford Motor Company. It was just like the

Motor Company. It was just like the equivalent of you owning 100% of like a 20 to40 billion company today. He was so obsessed with control. He he bought a

railroad. Like he bought a It's like not

railroad. Like he bought a It's like not only do I want to like control all every single like design and part that goes into the Model T and all my cars. It's

like I want to make sure that all those parts get to me and I want to control the logistics of them getting to me.

Yeah.

>> And what's fascinating about Elon is like he just went like buck the trend of the American automobile industry at that time which was like subcontract after subcontractor after subcontract. He

talks about this over and over again like they're just not even making their own [ __ ] >> Y >> and he's like I'm just going to go back and do it the way it used to be done.

But I think the reason that is so important is like not only do you have control but it's like how you make a costefficient product because if you're having subcontract after subcontract I think when he he did the initial

calculation he wasn't calling it the idiot index which we could talk about but at the time with the rockets he realized that like 98% of the cost of a rocket was not from what it was made out of. He's like where the hell is the money going? And he was

like, "Oh, it's going from this contractor who's this subcontractor actually hired another subcontractor who hired another subcontractor who hired another subcontractor before I get to the actual person like you said bending the metal or making the thing."

>> There's actually a very important like a meta to that which is he has a completely different vision and set of incentives. So the whole aerospace

incentives. So the whole aerospace industry to date basically been supported by cost plus contracts from the government. And so what is their

the government. And so what is their incentive? Their incentive is to spend

incentive? Their incentive is to spend as much [ __ ] money as they can because they make a percentage of the budget and they're not actually incentivized to to succeed. They're not

incentivized or maybe they're incentivized to succeed, but they're not incentivized to succeed economically and they're not necessarily incentivized to succeed on the original deadline.

What Elon did is went to the people actually awarding these contracts and said like we want an outcomebased contract. I want to be incentivized to

contract. I want to be incentivized to drive down the cost. I want to be incentivized to hit the deadlines. Like

he wanted to compete on low cost like for all the the talk that happens about him doing things that have never been done before. He is all the things that

done before. He is all the things that he's doing that have never been done before because he drives cost down. And

he drives cost down because the vision is not make as much money as I can. It

wasn't start a new aerospace company that's as profitable as possible. It was

get us to Mars which means drive down the cost of getting a payload off Earth as low as possible. which means I want to be incentivized to build a system that is as low cost as possible. And

once he did that, he did start winning all these contracts and winning these like out get actual outcome based things which by the way better for the government, better for taxpayers. That

is a heroic thing to go in and say, I know I could get paid X to be to do mediocre work or to do marginally better work, but I actually want to take the risk. I want to burn the boats. I want

risk. I want to burn the boats. I want

my back to the wall. I want to know that we have to clear this threshold that nobody has ever crossed before. And I

want to go tell my team that because that's how we're actually going to achieve this objective that everybody thinks I'm crazy for setting, which is

get us to Mars, which is make this very massive orders of magnitude leap in the efficiency of like a human engineering system. It is such a different approach

system. It is such a different approach and that goes all the way back to his like his sci-fi dream and his purpose-driven nature. It's the same thing with Tesla

nature. It's the same thing with Tesla that he didn't go out and say, "I want to make a profitable electric car company." He's like, "I want as many

company." He's like, "I want as many human beings as possible driving electric cars because that's how we're going to solve climate change. That's how we're going to put a

change. That's how we're going to put a dent in this." And so, all of his decisions are not how do I maximize profits while making electric cars. It

is how can I get as many people as possible driving electric cars? They

have to be as cheap as possible. I have

to drive that down. I need to simplify the product. I need to get a massive

the product. I need to get a massive volume so that the scale of the manufacturing supports a really really really low price point. And so he just keeps making these like principal driven

decisions from a very long-term view.

Like his his view is so zoomed out that it's actually really difficult to relate to. And he keeps doing these things that

to. And he keeps doing these things that seem crazy or stupid or um visionary or counterproductive, but isn't uh counter to the prevailing wisdom of the

industry.

>> But it's not from a sense of like they're doing this so I'm going to do this. It's not even from a sense of like

this. It's not even from a sense of like this is a strategically optimal local thing. It is like I am working on this

thing. It is like I am working on this gigantic mission and I will make every decision possible through the service of this gigantic mission. And that's why he's so

gigantic mission. And that's why he's so strategically differentiated. Like it it

strategically differentiated. Like it it is it is back to the paradox of like when you're doing something that shooting for a target that nobody else is even shooting for um you are incentivized by these completely

different set of systems and those incentives drive all of these decisions and that's why Tesla and SpaceX both have the same dynamic. They're doing

things that nobody else is doing.

There's two things that come to mind uh when you're talking about that. one I

want to talk about that I think people should heavily invest and maybe practice on their ability to like distill ideas and communicate like something complex in a simple way and I think Elon's you know maybe arguably one of the best

people in the world at doing that. The

second part which is a theme throughout everything especially and I think it's most not notable in SpaceX is like cost making cost control an obsession is not something you like graft onto the organization after it was there before

the organization even started when he has this idea where he's just like why the hell are these Russian ICBMs so expensive and he starts doing the first first principal thinking uh which is you

know everybody knows this story which is interesting but then him describing it in another way which I found was way more memorable he's Why would Russia be the only way that

can make a cost-effective rocket? And he

go and it's in your book. And he goes, "Do we drive Russian cars? Do we use Russian appliances?" Like, there's just

Russian appliances?" Like, there's just no way that they, this country figured out how to make the most cost effective launch vehicle. He goes, "America's a

launch vehicle. He goes, "America's a pretty competitive place. We should have the most cost effective launch vehicle, which obviously now he's like absolutely dominated in that." Yeah,

>> but again speaking in that manner, it's like you could say, "Okay, well, I broke down, you know, from first thinking all the parts and looked up what it was on the commodities exchange." Or you could say, "Why aren't we driving Russian cars?"

cars?" >> Yeah.

>> Why? Is your dishwasher at home? Is your

fridge Russian? No.

>> Like, America makes great [ __ ] and we make it great and cheap. Why can't we do the same thing for this like domain that I want to operate in?

>> The answer is because it had been like a government contract driven igopoly for the last like couple decades basically.

Um and and NASA was like amazing at pioneering but hadn't been hadn't like really applied themselves to this to this project. And like that is a thing

this project. And like that is a thing that people forget is like the original vision for SpaceX was not start a launch company. Elon's original goal was to

company. Elon's original goal was to increase NASA's budget and he was willing to just burn $100 million on a philanthropic mission to display a greenhouse on Mars. So like shoot a

greenhouse to Mars with existing rocket technology. Get this photo on the front

technology. Get this photo on the front page of every paper. There was like a little plant on the red planet, the first time life had trans transferred to another planet. And he's like that will

another planet. And he's like that will probably increase NASA's budget and like spur this wave of exploration and interest in space. And when he tried to

do that, he discovered that the the space launch market was so expensive and uninovative and hadn't been moving forward. And that's actually how he

forward. And that's actually how he discovered the opportunity to start SpaceX. It was like that's what's

SpaceX. It was like that's what's actually going to move this market forward. And then he sort of ended up

forward. And then he sort of ended up almost accidentally but as a byproduct of making that progress moving into Starlink and now moving into like uh solar compute in space.

>> So the Starlink thing is interesting. It

it's in the book and it's also in the the Max Olsson essay that you and I keep uh referencing which like if you're not on the frontier like Elon obviously wants to operate on the frontier and the domains that he's operating in. And the

reason that is important is not only because he wants to push his his missions forward but you also unlock opportunities. you can't see unless

opportunities. you can't see unless you're on the actual frontier.

>> Yeah.

>> And if they didn't have uh you know the the ability to put up the idea of have I think there's like 9,000 satellites in the Starling constellation now somewhere around there. It's like an insane number

around there. It's like an insane number and obviously increasing like that couldn't have happened when you're launching at the time and when he founded SpaceX. I think they said they

founded SpaceX. I think they said they were launching what like two four launches a year or something like that.

And I think there's now a SpaceX launch every like two days.

>> Yeah. This is a concept of like induced demand of like people have this perception that like the demand the size of a market is always going to be the size of the market and he's like well if you lower the cost like two orders of

magnitude there's a lot more use cases that are suddenly valid and as Max talks about in the essay like reaching volume production of rockets is actually a core

part of SpaceX's strategy like you need iteration and volume to cover the fixed cost and so you come up with new use cases to drive the volumes. What are you

going to do with, you know, new tons of launch capacity every year? And the

first thing, most obvious thing was like, all right, Starlink. And now the next most obvious thing is, yeah, this solar compute, like build a Dyson sphere, build a moon base, like all kinds of crazy stuff is going to happen.

Like there's there's stacks of S- curves here that are going to continue. And

that Elon deserves a lot of credit for not sitting on his laurel. He could have sat on Falcon 9 and just absolutely rad in cash for decades. Like there's nobody

else who can do it and it's a super profitable business, but he is like all aggress that was even beginning to be obvious and probably before he was already like on to Starship. Again, back

to this like purpose-driven nature of like we are going this is the business and the technology and the team that's going to get us to multilanetary.

>> I found one of my all-time favorite quotes when I was reading the book 0ero to1. The quote says, "The single most

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>> I want to go to some more ideas directly from Elon. Again, the subtitle of your

from Elon. Again, the subtitle of your book I think is super important. Elon

Musk's most useful ideas in his own words. Y

words. Y >> it's like when I was describing to friends like what I was reading uh I was like it's 200 pages 200 pages of just Elon talking to you directly to you.

Yep. And like you're gonna be able to like you can read it straight through if you want or you can just go to a certain chapter and like I think keeping this book on your desk and reading you know a few pages every few days is like a great idea like a tool for your career.

>> It's set up as a like dialogue. I want

it to feel like you're out to dinner with Elon Musk. Actually

>> again I like I want to hammer on this idea like he's just completely you know he he came to the same conclusion that most of his entrepreneurs did which is like vertically integrate vertically integrate control much business as

possible. that also ties in and and they

possible. that also ties in and and they said it wasn't like a philosophical thing for him. It was these other companies move too goddamn slow and I'm in the session of your book where he talks about time and this this was

fascinating to me.

>> The reason I invited you and I wanted to have this conversation with you is like I said I've read every book I could find on Elon. I've read countless books on

on Elon. I've read countless books on the history of SpaceX. I've done 10 episodes on the guy and yet I found stuff in your book that I've never found anywhere else which again goes to I think how thorough you are. But I want to go to just read a couple things and

throw it at you. see if he has any thoughts. We already mentioned this, a

thoughts. We already mentioned this, a maniacal sense of urgency is our operating principle and he's his whole thing is like don't waste time. Get rid

of all large meetings unless you are certain they're providing values to the whole audience in which case keep them short.

>> Also get rid of frequent meetings unless you are dealing with an extremely urgent matter. Meeting fre this is so good such

matter. Meeting fre this is so good such a good observation by Elon. Meeting

frequency should drop rapidly once the urgent matter is resolved. That makes me think of the observation by the guy at NASA who's observing uh SpaceX. He's

like, "Wait, there's a problem. It looks

like a flash mob."

>> Like, flash mobs don't stay there forever. Why are you having this

forever. Why are you having this reoccurring meeting? Walk out of a

reoccurring meeting? Walk out of a meeting or drop out of a call as soon as obvious you aren't adding value. It is

not rude to leave. It is rude to make someone else stay and waste their time.

This is I've double underlined several things in your book. This is one of them. The only true currency is time.

them. The only true currency is time.

And then he tells this story because he talks about that speed is both offense and defense. And this was a fascinating

and defense. And this was a fascinating uh story that I hear I haven't heard anybody else talk about. He says the best offense and defense is speed. The

SR71 Blackbird is a military plane with almost no defense except acceleration.

It was never shot down, not even once.

Over 3,000 missiles were shot at the SR71 Blackbird and none hit. All it did was go faster. The power of speed is an underappreciated as a competitive

factor.

>> This is actually I think both Tesla and SpaceX's core advantage is like how quickly they iterate and design new technologies. Like he open sourced the

technologies. Like he open sourced the patents for Tesla. Go ahead, go copy it.

Like good luck. Because by the time you're producing the things that they've open sourced, like they're going to be 5 10 years ahead. And there's a bunch of stuff in that book about what he's

learned from from military history. And

he's like the decisive factor in most certainly every modern war, but many wars is the speed of technological innovation. Not tactics, not size, but

innovation. Not tactics, not size, but this technology asymmetry. And the

longer the war, the more important the speed of iteration becomes. Not where

you started, but how quickly you're developing something new. He continues,

"A factory moving twice the speed as another factory is basically equivalent to two factories."

>> Yeah.

>> And I love this. I have a running triage of what I do at each company. Constantly

thinking, what is the most useful thing I can do? Which goes back to that tip of the spear meme. That's tip of the spear focus. Like what is the limiting factor?

focus. Like what is the limiting factor?

Literally get on a plane, go and go to where whatever the limiting factor is and don't leave until that is resolved, which is another form of speed. It's

speed of identifying the bottleneck and then going to it and attacking it and resolving it. Like every one of those

resolving it. Like every one of those steps is an increase in speed that pays off. And there's so many things like

off. And there's so many things like this is a tiny story, but I love it because I think it's an example. It's a

thing that happens in every single company that usually takes 2 weeks that he does in an hour, right? So he's like interviewing uh a machinist and 20 minute, 30 minute interview. He wants to

hire the guy. So he asks him how much he cost. Haggles right there. Come to

cost. Haggles right there. Come to

terms. Somebody's like standing beside him with a offer. It's like, "All right, fill in the blanks. Here you go."

>> Signs it. Goes to work.

>> Like, same day. Same day. And by the way, it's Saturday at like 6 p.m. So,

like your your description of like how he uses time like uses all of it >> immediately. Like that's such an

>> immediately. Like that's such an important insight and he is it's why these not just he but also these companies move so quickly. Like when you combine I feel a lot of people talk about the tactics of like yes he moves

fast yes he has first principles thinking yes he works on the bottleneck but when you combine these things it's it's like a laal palooa from Charlie Mer right it is like this is not a 10% on a

10% on a 10% if you're working on the most important thing with manic intensity and you're doing that 100 hours a week instead of 40 hours a week you are orders of magnitude beyond the productivity of somebody else and he's

been doing this for decades so no wonder he's so far ahead. Yes, he's smart. Yes,

he's intense. But he's not superhuman.

He's not orders of magnitude smarter than his competitors, but the way that he works and the the methods that he uses, the mindset that he has puts him orders of magnitude ahead.

>> I love that you you described it as a law. I think that's what I'm trying to

law. I think that's what I'm trying to get across from like the podcast I've been doing on Elon, the conversation I uh want to have with you, the conversation we're having right now, your book. It's like you have to use all

your book. It's like you have to use all the ideas cuz them combined and they could be appi they can apply to like anything. I'm not building rockets.

anything. I'm not building rockets.

Literally, like right before we started recording, like there's this idea of like finding a limiting factor even for like the show, me and my partner Rob who's sitting over there. It's like

we've identified there's two. We want to go faster and increase production. Well,

what are main bottlenecks? We have two of them and we're attacking both of them. I was just you heard me talking to

them. I was just you heard me talking to another team member right before we started recording. I was like, there's

started recording. I was like, there's one thing that I'm, you know, not happy about. It's like we need to drill down

about. It's like we need to drill down on this over and over and over again.

It's like you can use this for anything.

Uh there's something that you have in your book which I read for the first time. I think I read this guy named

time. I think I read this guy named Ashley Vance wrote this biography of Elon. I think in 2013 is when I first

Elon. I think in 2013 is when I first read it.

>> The first one. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's the first episode of Founders Ever in 2016. I did an episode on it.

>> Everybody should go listen to that.

David will hate it.

>> No. The way I think is like so we're talking about speed in terms of building products, companies, everything else.

But he even applies it and you just mentioned this. He has this like weird

mentioned this. He has this like weird long-term view that if you don't have that, you're not really going to understand the decision he's making.

It's like, so the way I described this paragraph when I read to you is like, this is how Elon thinks about money. And

this I've never heard anywhere else. In

early SpaceX, I told the team everything we did was a function of our burn rate.

We were burning through $100,000 per day. In the same way, I expected the

day. In the same way, I expected the revenue in 10 years to be $10 million a day. Every day we were slower to achieve

day. Every day we were slower to achieve our goals was a day of missing out on that revenue. So, this is there's a

that revenue. So, this is there's a story in uh Ashley Vance book where they're like, I don't get Elon. It's

like I just went to him and tried to get him to spend, you know, $25,000 on a part. He said no because he thinks I

part. He said no because he thinks I could build it for 2,000 because the idiot index. That's that part should be

idiot index. That's that part should be 2,000 to figure out how to do it. Yet he

just let us use his jet and burn $60,000 of jet fuel to get a part to Hawaii that would save us a workday. Yeah. And so

that makes perfect sense if you spend 60 grand because that's that day 10 years from now is 10 million.

>> Yeah. and and you unlock an entire team and all the infrastructure value. So a

thing that's underrated about Elon in my view is like this uh this hyperfluency across domains like he this is a simple example but like he studied both physics

and economics as an undergraduate he has been like running his business and functionally being head of product at all of his companies. Um it's an extremely wide like multivaried set of

trade-offs that he's looking at and he deeply understands to your point the zoomed out view of opportunity cost and compounding. So thinking about where a

compounding. So thinking about where a business could be in 10 years, where the bottleneck is today, what the burn rate is of all the money and equipment and time and attention and what gets

unlocked, not just today, but the potential future value of that is really really interesting. Um, and that's I

really interesting. Um, and that's I think a powerful source of the maniacal urgency is because he's like hair on fire all the time. It's like there's there's billions of dollars at stake every single hour of the day. Like we

can be working with such greater intensity and the rewards for doing it go up every time we are able to move faster. I just flipped to this randomly

faster. I just flipped to this randomly flipped to this page in the book which I think speaks to what you're saying. I I

want to before I read it, I think what you were referencing there is he talks about the fact that finance and engineering is in the same head.

>> Yes.

In most companies it's separated. It's

him. So he wants to make something they want to know the cost or the potential growth in revenue. It's like no that that discussion is taking place with me.

So then again I can move faster because it's in one head.

>> A sole decision. I mean how many of the great founders of history are like are that kind of sole decision maker.

>> Yeah. There's not many committees that make great things.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh in fact I'm reading I've never read Atlas Shrugged before. And the funny thing is uh I'm I'm reading it. I

actually might do an episode on it. I

think it's an interesting thing. But in

beginning of the book, >> there's one person that is very much like an Elon character and her brother is kind of her partner and he's the opposite and and she's made a decision to do something. She's like, "Well, how

did you decide that?" She's like, "I just decided, but we have to check with the board and all these other people."

She's like, "No, we don't. We're just

going to make the decision." So, there's actually o over, you'll see this a pattern as you read. There's like a pattern of responsibility. And there's a chapter in in my book called like internalize responsibility and over and

over again you'll see like the hero characters in Atlas Shrugged. Everybody

else is sort of trying to like find someone else to make a decision or like shove risk. And Dagy is like I I am

shove risk. And Dagy is like I I am responsible. This is me making this

responsible. This is me making this decision. I'm responsible for this

decision. I'm responsible for this decision. Like if it's right or wrong,

decision. Like if it's right or wrong, hold it against me later. And like

you'll hear Elon do that in in like launch rooms. It's kind of like hey this is like we've identified a risk factor.

Go or no go. And like him in that moment standing in front of like a rocket worth tens of millions and like the public watching him in a launch is like running a calculation of like the physics, the

risk, the economics, the market value, the speed of the company, when the next launch window is, and he'll be like, "Take the risk, like launch the rocket, let's go." Um, like over and over and

let's go." Um, like over and over and over again. So many of those decisions

over again. So many of those decisions that he's just like solely responsible for. And that's why I think these

for. And that's why I think these lessons are so valuable. Like who else has lived this kind of experience? and

honed these lessons to to deliver to us.

>> So going back, let's extend this idea of like how Elon thinks about money. Says

Tesla is getting to the point where every high quality minute of thinking has a million dollar impact. You

referenced this earlier. That is insane.

That's Elon talking. If Tesla's doing 2 billion a week in revenue, that's about 300 million a day, 7 days a week. There

are many instances where a halfhour meeting improved the company's financial outcome by hundred million dollars.

>> This is the highest leverage man on earth. like how many tens of thousands

earth. like how many tens of thousands of engineers, how many billions of dollars of capital, billions of dollars of capex factories, like you know he says like it makes it hard to sleep.

There's always something important to go do and he's he's constantly running a trio of what's the most important thing he can do. That's why he runs no schedule. This jet is him flying all

schedule. This jet is him flying all over the world like whatever the most important thing is to do.

>> Yeah. I think there's a story in the um Isacson book where I think he's dating Grimes at the time and she talks she was interviewed by him and she's like I've caught him up in bed like I'm sleeping I wake up and he's just sitting there in

like the thinking man's pose and he was thinking like when we went to sleep he's in the thinking man's pose I wake up he's still in the thinking man's pose.

>> Yeah. There's I mean there's hours of like uh many stories of like dressed to go to a party and he's like I'm just going to go look at this and then ends up like spending the night under a rocket like working in a tuxedo. There's

a great Those are the early days of uh of SpaceX history where he shows up. I

think it's like a Christmas party and he's like fancy leather shoes or something and they're like they're like, >> you know, we're going to be an hour late, we're going to be two hours late, we're not going. And now my fancy shoes are [ __ ] up cuz I got I'm like and literally trying to help build a rocket.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh just some random um >> quotes from him. I think this is great.

This is almost like a a maxim. Avoid

serialized dependencies. I mean, the most obvious one is just like who starts SpaceX and Tesla at the same time. Like,

that's insane. Um, but both of these things are important, so I'm going to like try my best to do them both. Um,

the story from PayPal is like a little more generalizable, which is, you know, we have like these regulatory boxes we need to check. We have these partnership integrations we need to run, and we have a product we need to build. And the same

things to do is like do one after the other and these end up being like three-year things because you're not like wasting time building a product if you don't know you're going to get the regulatory clearance you need. And he

just attacks like we're going to do it all all in parallel maximum risk minimum timeline. Do it all in parallel and

timeline. Do it all in parallel and launch in a year ready go. Um so these things are you know Warren Buffett's quot you can't get a a baby in one month by getting nine women pregnant. It's

like this sense of like how many things can you do in a row to minimize the overall timeline and yes it comes with additional risk and yes it's more expensive but back to the fundamental

currency of time being the most valuable thing like that's actually the thing you should do and that's a big part I think of why the pace of these companies the

velocity of them is so high and over and many great entrepreneurs talk about like how underrated velocity is and Elon talks about it too not just like the pace of the company but the team itself.

So he talks about the team as being a vector sum. And so imagine like every

vector sum. And so imagine like every employee as an arrow. How big the arrow is is maybe how high quality the employee is. Um how long the arrow is is

employee is. Um how long the arrow is is how fast they're moving. And then Elon's job is to like align them all on the same thing. And so he talks about

same thing. And so he talks about how good the team is, how aligned they are, and how hard they're working, right? Like that is the vector sum of

right? Like that is the vector sum of the team. And that is what's ultimately

the team. And that is what's ultimately going to determine the progress of the company and how successful they are.

>> Want to uh bring up a couple things you just mentioned about his he just constantly hammering on time, not wasting time. Uh but I can't help but

wasting time. Uh but I can't help but notice that in an episode dedicated to Elon, you mentioned getting nine women pregnant.

>> I don't know if you if you slip that in there intentionally or not, but we're just going to move on. Uh

>> sl I'm not I haven't slipped anything in intentionally.

The one thing, direct quote from Elon here, thank you very much. The one thing you cannot replace is time. He goes on a few pages later. I have to tell the team, it's okay to scrap equipment or

money. It is not okay to scrap time.

money. It is not okay to scrap time.

Minimizing the waste of each other's time, especially once you've identified that like exceptional entrepreneur or exceptional engineers are the fundamental constraint. The next is like

fundamental constraint. The next is like how effectively are you using them? How

effectively are they aligned? And this

is a thing where I think Elon is underrated actually as a communicator.

like he's not a super polished presenter like Steve Jobs, but especially when you read him and read a well- edited transcript of him, the clarity that he communicates with is like extremely

high. And he's got this amazing habit.

high. And he's got this amazing habit.

You know, you talk about often about how clear and how repetitive good CEOs need to be. Good leaders, good founders like

to be. Good leaders, good founders like need to communicate super clearly and align the team. And he's got uh the power of one like one metric that the entire team is working towards. and he's

really methodical about like the beginning of every meeting we are going to this metric better be on the first slide. It's the thing that we're

slide. It's the thing that we're optimizing for. So when he was working

optimizing for. So when he was working on autonomous cars it was like how many miles were driven without interventions.

When they're uh working on neural links like how many electrodes are you installing per minute into a brain? So

there's always like a single key metric that the team is driving towards that every decision is run through like does it drive this metric forward? Does it

drive this metric forward? And that's a really good way of aligning all those arrows and for him to sort of know that the team is working on the objective that he's identified as the most important and doing it as most effectively as they can

and for themselves to all keep each other honest and not get distracted by these like secondary objectives.

>> Yeah. I think that's again world class communication. It's like there's so many

communication. It's like there's so many limited things that a human being can remember and so if you can organize your entire you know company >> Yeah.

>> around one single thing is like is this getting better? Like this is how we're

getting better? Like this is how we're going to judge our success.

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So, you and I have been talking a few months. You were kind enough to get me

months. You were kind enough to get me an early copy of the book. So, we've

been talking about Elon for a few months. And you you brought it up, I

months. And you you brought it up, I think, already in this conversation. You

brought it up earlier this morning. We

were having coffee. You've brought up on the phone. This idea of like failure is

the phone. This idea of like failure is almost meaningless as long as it's not catastrophic. There's a line in the book

catastrophic. There's a line in the book that I thought was interesting that he says the longer you do anything, the more mistakes you will make cumulatively.

>> He's talking about his sense of prediction, but it's also cultivating these failures. Like he does not mind

these failures. Like he does not mind being too early. He does not mind being wrong in a specific prediction. He talks

often about he's like, I'm rarely correct specifically on the timing of a prediction, but the direction of the prediction is almost always correct.

Like I might be a year off, I might be two years off. Sometimes I'm five, but like being directionally correct again once you're zoomed out about the the heading of the future and what we're

working towards is massively more important than the specific break points. I want to jump to something else

points. I want to jump to something else that you and I have talked about a bunch which is your one of your goals stated goals for making this is like you want to encourage more people to make stuff to actually make products services that

make other people's lives better to make stuff to make important stuff to make it as cheap as possible.

>> I talked to Toby Luke on this podcast which was one of my favorite conversations I've ever had in my entire life. It was very interesting. I didn't

life. It was very interesting. I didn't

even think about in these terms at the end of the conversation he's like oh me and you actually have the same job. Our

job is to increase entrepreneurs to create more entrepreneurs. He's doing it through Shopify. I'm obviously doing it

through Shopify. I'm obviously doing it through reading all these biographies, taking this collective knowledge of history entrepreneurs and pushing it uh down like the generations.

>> So in in in many cases I do think there's going to be people that pick up your book and your series of books and be like wait I can like do something too and take these ideas and apply it even if it's in a small way.

>> This section there's only two pages here like page and a half. I think it's really important I highlight almost the whole thing but it's like this again these are Elon's words that are super important. and he says, "We must make

important. and he says, "We must make stuff. Manufacturing is underrated. It

stuff. Manufacturing is underrated. It

is hard. I've got mad respect for the makers of things." That's my favorite sentence on this book or on this page.

He says, and this is why it's important.

Some people have an absurd view of the economy as a magic thing that just produces stuff. Let me break it to the

produces stuff. Let me break it to the fools out there. If we don't make stuff, there's no stuff. Some people have become detached from reality. This

notion that the government can just send out checks to everybody and everything will be fine is not true. Obviously, you

can't just legislate money to solve things. If we don't make stuff, he says

things. If we don't make stuff, he says it again, there is no stuff.

Technological progress is not inevitable. It's not some kind of

inevitable. It's not some kind of abstract concept. Humans make

abstract concept. Humans make technology.

>> If we don't do it, it will not happen.

Somebody has to do the real work.

>> This is the clip uh I believe he was on the Joe Rogan podcast where I was like, I must write this book.

>> Say more. it identified to me that he is like such a clear communicator and this is such an important idea and I think about you know my my like generation of entrepreneurs and the the leaders that

we had the people that we look up to the content we created and that's just something that I want to install in as many people's heads as I can like you you you and Toby talk about like your job is to create as many entrepreneurs

as I can as you can like I believe in creating entrepreneurs I believe in spreading good ideas spreading useful ideas, spreading correct ideas, like expanding knowledge into as many people

as we can. And this is an unbelievably important meme. And if we all run around

important meme. And if we all run around like creating info products or charging as much as we can while delivering as little value as you can or starting

commodity businesses or worst of all like trying to do as little as possible while getting as much as possible or legislating yourself universal basic income and never working

again or whatever. Like this is not how we advance. This is not how we grow.

we advance. This is not how we grow.

This is not how we take care of each other. Like we have to produce stuff and

other. Like we have to produce stuff and build stuff. I think the first sentence

build stuff. I think the first sentence in the book is like, don't aspire to glory. Aspire to work. Like, aspire to

glory. Aspire to work. Like, aspire to be useful. Do something that is a

be useful. Do something that is a benefit to all of your fellow humans.

Elon has both really uh hard and really positive motivations. Like, he burns

positive motivations. Like, he burns clean fuel and dirty fuel at the same time right?

Yes, he's like trying to escape this really hard childhood he had and like prove to himself that he has this incredible value, but he also has these like really beautiful massive

aspirations and he's inspiring so many people to do great work and helping them learn how to do it in a most effective way. Like he's raising and educating

way. Like he's raising and educating this whole culture, all these entrepreneurs who are going to come out of these companies. So, we're already seeing SpaceX founders do incredible things. And the intensity and pace and

things. And the intensity and pace and vision that these people are working with, I think is going to usher in like an incredible next generation of entrepreneurs. And I I hope this book

entrepreneurs. And I I hope this book like helps people gain these ideas into their head and choose what they think is important and what they work on, who they work on it with, and how they work on it.

>> I do I do agree with you. I think it's one of the most important ideas. In Max

Olsson essay, I love what he said. He's

like the output of SpaceX in particular is not cheaper rockets. It's people

being trained to do difficult things and taking those ideas and putting them into different domains. And I think the

different domains. And I think the important thing is like making more things, not doing more deals, not going into finance. Like you have the best

into finance. Like you have the best entrepreneur on the planet, maybe the best in history telling you what does it say? There's an overallocation of talent

say? There's an overallocation of talent in finance and law. Too many smart people are going into finance. We should

have fewer people doing that >> and more people making stuff. That is a dark quote. We should have fewer people

dark quote. We should have fewer people doing finance and more people making stuff. Man, this is so important.

stuff. Man, this is so important.

Manufacturing used to be highly valued in the United States. These days, it hasn't been as much, which I think is wrong. Yeah. Making cars is an honest

wrong. Yeah. Making cars is an honest day's living. That's for sure. Making

day's living. That's for sure. Making

anything or providing a valuable service like good entertainment, good information. These are valuable things

information. These are valuable things to do. And then I'll close the section

to do. And then I'll close the section with again that quote which I my favorite part. I've got mad respect for

favorite part. I've got mad respect for makers of things. going back to the the kind of like founders archive in your head like how many of the great founders were making things, manufacturing,

building, moving physical stuff around.

>> I mean, if you think about like the the most famous like just go through like the Robert Baronss where their names are known. It's just like there's only one

known. It's just like there's only one there was essentially one Robert Baron that did finance and that's like J.

Gold. But like

>> JP Morgan, >> I have a different take on that where like if you read I've read every single book I can find on JP Morgan. Yeah.

Interesting character. I found his dad to be much more of a formidable individual than than he was. And there's

a funny thing when um JP Morgan dies, they his size of his estate is revealed.

I forgot the number. It was like 50 million, which is still a ton back then, but Andrew Carnegie goes, "Oh, it's a think." He wasn't even a rich man.

think." He wasn't even a rich man.

>> But like Carnegie and Steel, Rockefeller and oil, Vanderbilt and transportation, there's not, you know, they were building things. They were creating I

building things. They were creating I mean they were creating essentially the entire industries if you really think about they were building the best company inside the industry but they were really creating the industries.

>> The closest analog for Elon is is are those names like I don't think there's anybody else going back to like why he's singular.

Like we would have social networks without Mark Zuckerberg. We'd have

search engines without Google. We would

have operating systems without Bill Gates. Like yes they're some of the

Gates. Like yes they're some of the biggest companies on earth but and they were incredibly well executed but I don't think they were singular. And I

don't think we're going to see quite the same longevity that we see out of like both of these companies.

>> It's just refreshing for him to talk about how important manufacturing and building physical things are. Um I mean he says in the book manufacturing is the mo two things define manufacturing competitiveness uh economies of scale

and technology. If you maximize your

and technology. If you maximize your level of technology and maximize your level of scale that is obviously going to be the most competitive situation.

That's why these plants are so freaking giant.

>> Yeah. I mean Tesla's building a lot of things in the US and now working backwards into their own supply chain.

Like they can't get enough lithium so they're starting a lithium refinery in the United States um spinning up.

They're now you know starting to fabricate their own chips because that's become a bottleneck. Like they just keep attacking like up and down the supply chain as much as they can um in order to be as efficient as possible and drive

the product cost down.

>> So we've already touched a few times on the fact that he wants to take technology to its absolute limits. Yep.

and like be operating on the frontier.

>> Y >> you again, you did a great job of finding quotes of somebody that like studies Elon for years that I've never heard anywhere else. And he was just talking about the fact that, you know, if you're developing technology, should

we be pushed the maximum level possible?

And then he gives an example of somebody not doing that. And he's like, it was like building F22 fighter jets and then selling them to people who roll them down the hill at each other. That's not

the way to use the technology. Yeah,

that was the outcome of his uh his Zip 2 experience where he was like he was building software and then selling it to legacy media companies to kind of move newspapers online like way back in the

day and he was just super frustrated by having to like sell to a slowmoving old school company that was between him and customers and that's where he came kind of there was an early lesson that he's carried with him forever which is like go straight to the consumer like own

everything and let the the customer is the one who's going to make the final determination you want to take the technology straight to the customer. The

way I think about Elon is like there's no work about work, just work. So he has this great quote, better to pick a path and keep moving than just vacasillate endlessly on a decision.

>> Also a PayPal thing like make the decision as quickly as possible and then just like keep moving like the back to like velocity, speed is everything.

>> What matters to me is winning and not in a small way.

>> He's a competitive guy like loves loves to win. We are lucky that he's working

to win. We are lucky that he's working on the things that he's working on. his

inherent personality would dominate whatever industry he went into. And how

lucky are we that he's like working on some of the most important problems that humanity faces.

>> Yeah. He could use his talents for evil.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, which goes back to like the incentive system like you know, thank God for capitalism.

>> Like Napoleon didn't do a lot of good with his like massive energy and brilliance, right? He like won a lot of

brilliance, right? He like won a lot of land, lost a lot of land, a lot of people died.

>> Did you ever read Jimmy Sony's biography of Claude Shannon?

>> Not yet.

>> Yeah. I think it's called a mind at play. Yeah.

play. Yeah.

>> And Claude Chainman made famous for uh coming up with information theory, but he gives this great talk in this biography where he wins this award and he's like it's really weird that history celebrates like conquerors and like

politicians. He's like we should

politicians. He's like we should actually celebrate innovators, uh, inventors, engineers, and he gives this whole speech and that was probably like 60 years ago.

>> Yeah. And Claude Shannon's an incredible example.

>> Here's another thing we've already talked about, but I think it's really important. This is Elon. A lot of

important. This is Elon. A lot of entrepreneurial talent and financing goes to the internet. Other sectors like automotive, solar and space don't see new entrance. Not a lot of entrepreneurs

new entrance. Not a lot of entrepreneurs go into those areas and not a lot of capital goes into those startups. This

is a problem because innovation tends to come from new entrance to an industry.

In an igopoly, no one is forced to innovate. New entrance drive innovation

innovate. New entrance drive innovation more than anything, which is why I have devoted my efforts to building new companies in those industries. There's

actually a great story that I think is a really replicatable tactic that's underrated that um I I think people can really use actually which is when he was considering starting SpaceX. So this is after he sort of had his his like bad

experience in Russia and he's thinking about entering the launch market. He

doesn't just say like I'm starting a company. What he does is do he calls it

company. What he does is do he calls it a feasibility study. So he pulls in a bunch of engineers that have worked on the great launch vehicles. He starts

reading all the books as you say like devouring the entire shelf talking to all the people that he can and he sets up a series of meetings with these engineers who are experienced to

basically vet the idea of how good could launch be. Let's start with first

launch be. Let's start with first principles. Let's start with a clean

principles. Let's start with a clean sheet of paper and what's possible in this market. And almost at the same time

this market. And almost at the same time that they sort of came to the conclusion through this work that like massive order of magnitude breakthroughs were possible was when they actually sold PayPal. And so he's kind of like all

PayPal. And so he's kind of like all right I got a bunch of cash. We've like

vetted this idea with these experts. But

I think it's really worth drilling down on the fact that like you know at this point he was almost 30 if not more. He

had only worked in software. He studied

physics in undergrad but like had not built hardware. And he just learned how

built hardware. And he just learned how to become a rocket scientist essentially just by like reading the books, talking to people and going after. And he says most people self-limit their ability to learn. Like I'd never studied rocket

learn. Like I'd never studied rocket science, but I picked it up along the way. He's a powerful example of like

way. He's a powerful example of like what is possible. You know, once you've identified a meaningful mission, you just become who you need to be in order to accomplish that mission.

>> He's obviously very high agency. The

what I loved about the the story from um one of the biographies is how dismissive everybody was. is like, "Oh, this is

everybody was. is like, "Oh, this is just a software guy playing with expensive toys." That's how he was

expensive toys." That's how he was described.

>> I mean, that was the press, but also his friends. Like, I'm sure that many of

friends. Like, I'm sure that many of them would deny it now, but they were all trying to talk him out of it. There

was only a graveyard in this particular place. People were like showing him

place. People were like showing him rocket videos who, it's not that nobody had ever attempted this before. It's

just everybody had failed.

>> Well, there was a lot of failed. I mean,

one of I find this guy fascinating because there's so little known about him, Andy Beal. But Andy Bill was he made money independently in another industry and then tried to do a rocket company wind up burning I think a couple hundred million of his own money and

then the reason it's related to Elon is because when they trying to find a place in Texas to set up turns out they could lease this property that was previously used utilized by Beal I think it was Be a Aerospace. Yeah.

a Aerospace. Yeah.

>> And so it kind of like jump started them.

>> It was actually a big motivation of Elon's like even if I fail even if I lose this money and that is the most likely outcome not just by a little like by a lot. He's like, I will have moved the ball forward. Like, this is an

important mission. And going in with the

important mission. And going in with the idea that he'll burn this money on the Mars mission. He's like, even if I waste

Mars mission. He's like, even if I waste my money on advancing progress in space launch technology, at least I will have made progress in the same way that like Andy Beal, you know, left some infrastructure behind that helped

SpaceX. Like these things do build and

SpaceX. Like these things do build and compound. And there's, you know, back to

compound. And there's, you know, back to the sort of fragility sense, like even when entrepreneurs fail trying to move the ball forward, the the ecosystem like moves forward. Like that's part of the

moves forward. Like that's part of the beauty of the human system that we have.

>> Another great quote that I haven't seen anywhere else. I have a habit of biting

anywhere else. I have a habit of biting off more than I can chew and just sitting there with chipmunk cheeks.

>> That's a great visual. Yeah.

>> You think he's doing that right now?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like he keeps an underrated piece of him again. is I

think like he keeps doubling down and taking massive risk. Like he took what seemed like that impossible pay package trade-off at Tesla that everyone was like, "Oh my god, this is never going to work." He did it,

work." He did it, got the biggest, you know, cop package in history because it was the riskiest.

And now he's doing it again. Like he

won't he'll get a trillion dollars if Tesla becomes a 10 trillion company, but nothing if it doesn't. like again just all on the line over and over again

burning the boats putting his back to the wall putting himself in a situation where there's no option but forward at max speed. So as I'm here listening to

max speed. So as I'm here listening to you talk I'm just like leafing through the book to see what other interesting stuff comes. What you said just matches

stuff comes. What you said just matches up perfectly with the subheading of the page I just happened to randomly turn to which is called the edge of sanity. I

just need to read some of this stuff to you because he's hilarious.

>> Yeah.

>> Question. How do you prioritize with so many things going on at once? He goes,

"Prioritizing has us should be out of desperation, not selection. It's not,

oh, let's sit back and leisurely decide how we should spend these resources.

It's this isn't working. If we don't make it work, we're going to go bankrupt. So, we better make it work."

bankrupt. So, we better make it work."

And then he goes, "I felt I felt like Indiana Jones running down the temple.

There's a huge boulder chasing you, and you need to jump across a giant pit in the ground. If you slow down, the

the ground. If you slow down, the boulder will crush you, and if you don't make the leap, you'll die in the pit."

That's prioritizing.

It is how scaled entrepreneurs feel.

Like when when you interviewed Brian Armstrong, that is how it sounded. You

know, he's like, "We hit product market fit." And all I could do for years was

fit." And all I could do for years was just wake up and like stay alive, just try to keep up. Like the servers were on fire, the support tickets were coming in. Like, oh my god, I just have to stay

in. Like, oh my god, I just have to stay on top of it. Like I just got to keep running and jump across a pit. How do

you motivate the team? I told them we have to go ultra hardcore. Yeah.

>> Which is funny to me. I lived in the factories for three years. He's talking

about the Tesla production hell.

>> Yeah. Uh, I lived in the factories for three years, running around like a maniac through every part of the factory. I was living with the team. I

factory. I was living with the team. I

slept on the floor. This is actually smart. I slept on the floor floor so the

smart. I slept on the floor floor so the team going through a hard time could see me on the floor and knew I was not in some ivory tower. Whatever pain they experience, I experienced more.

>> It comes straight from his like study of military history, right? Like wherever

generals lead from the front line, wherever the general is, the troops are going to fight better. Like these are Napoleon things um that he exemplified.

And he he even says in there like not only did I sleep on the factory floor, but he slept like outside the conference room. It's not like he slept at the

room. It's not like he slept at the factory. And I've I've talked to

factory. And I've I've talked to employees there who like they're like there's a hotel across the street. Like

it would have been fine if he just went to the hotel and come back. His presence

would have been the same. But he wanted people to see him sleeping on the factory floor. He doesn't just like not

factory floor. He doesn't just like not have concern for his personal comfort.

He like sacrifices his personal comfort for leadership like for the credibility of his engineers to build trust in that.

And that is like part of how he gets so much out of people is like these conspicuous visible tangible obvious displays of self-sacrifice. And it it

does over and over again. He he pushes himself so hard. I mean the edge of sanity. He says like I worked to the

sanity. He says like I worked to the edge of sanity. Um you've talked about Tula Riley in in the 2008 thing. He's

having like night terrors. He'd wake up screaming and puking like >> Tula Riley was his wife at the time that's occurring. So she's seeing this.

that's occurring. So she's seeing this.

They're in bed. He's trying to sleep and she's just yelling in his sleep. And

>> yeah, like it is like edge of sanity is not a like >> euphemism for I worked hard. It is like a herculian test >> and a direct quote from him on the page

I just flipped to. I worked to the edge of sanity.

>> Yeah, it's a it is a very like um I think a metal lesson from the book and from his life that that anybody can take away. It's it's the it is gogggins of

away. It's it's the it is gogggins of entrepreneurship. It is you are capable

entrepreneurship. It is you are capable of so much more than you think. what you

think is your best effort is maybe 30% effort and you're actually capable of so much more. Like you make full massive

much more. Like you make full massive use of time if you push yourself to the edge. Like I'm not advocating that this

edge. Like I'm not advocating that this is the right path for everybody. I think

like some people are Jason and some people are Elon Musk.

>> I don't know anybody else that could withstand as much pain and torment as he he has.

>> Yeah.

>> Can't think of another entrepreneur living that has >> no but but people can probably take more than they're currently taking. if it's

not a blueprint, is it an example of what's possible, right? Like um it also I think it's a it's an anidote to envy.

Like I don't want to live through what he lived through. And that makes it very easy to be like I I don't I want to compete with that. Um but it does show you what's possible. Like that's what

maximum effort really looks like. I

think that's a really helpful lesson to know.

>> Yeah, maximum effort always everywhere is the way I really think about him. I

just came across another paragraph that I underlined. I think ties a lot of

I underlined. I think ties a lot of these ideas. We're talking about the

these ideas. We're talking about the fact that he's obsessed with speed, obsessed with control, and if you're obsessed with control, it's going to lead to vertical integration. And then

you really should just design from a blank sheet of paper and do that in a first principles way. He says there's a lot of vertical integration at Tesla. We

make the battery pack, the power electronics, and the drive change ourselves. We vertically integrated

ourselves. We vertically integrated because the pace we need to move was much faster than the supply chain could move. That's a great line. To the degree

move. That's a great line. To the degree that you rely on the legacy supply chain, you inherent the legacy constraints, including their speed, their costs, and their technology. He's

talking about Tesla. The exact same thing is applies to SpaceX though.

>> You can't make two orders of magnitude improvements if you rely on the existing supply chain. And one of the things we

supply chain. And one of the things we were talking about this morning is like the most interesting thing is identify the limiting factor and work on the bottleneck is like almost so obvious that it's trit, right? Like

>> no one does it. One, people don't do it, but two, it's a more nuanced thing than it appears at first blush, right? Like

if the limiting factor is energy, it's like okay, what is the what is the peak load? Where does it come from? What's

load? Where does it come from? What's

the cost optimized thing? Like, oh, if if turbines are the cheapest way to do it, what is the actual like who's manufacturing the turbines? Where do

they come from? Where do they exist? Um,

if the piece what piece of the turbine makes it more difficult. So, he did this example and drilled all the way down. is

like there's actually one like machined part that is the fin of the turbine that is the like portable piece of the generator that is the bottleneck of compute infrastructure for XAI right

now. And so it's like it's actually one

now. And so it's like it's actually one part of a thing drilling all the way down and like identifying with super high specificity where the bottleneck is.

>> That's interesting. Explain that to me again. So he's trying to find out the

again. So he's trying to find out the limiting factor for XAI.

>> Yeah. And the limiting factor is energy, right? like we we bought the chips, we

right? like we we bought the chips, we need the building. This is when he was running the first super cluster. And

somebody told him it was going to take like 2 years to get this building up and running. He's like, "Nope, if we don't

running. He's like, "Nope, if we don't do it, there's a break point. If we

don't do it in 90 days, like we're dead or 6 months, maybe we're dead." And they spun up the whole thing. They they found a building in Memphis. They bought the chips from Nvidia. Then they needed

cooling and they needed uh power. You

can't get a grid interconnect done in 6 months. So what do you do? you go get

months. So what do you do? you go get these turbines, these gas turbines, which are like portable energy generators, and you you just line them up all along one side of the building, and you can't get that much cooling

installed. So, he went and hired mobile

installed. So, he went and hired mobile like refrigerator trucks to like line them up against the other side of the building. Um, and so it was just like,

building. Um, and so it was just like, what is the fastest possible way to get this thing done and what's the limiting factor of the limiting factor of the limiting factor? like drilling all the

limiting factor? like drilling all the way down to figure out truly where to attack that kind of five W's all the way down to figure out the limiting factor of the limiting factor of the limiting factor kind of relates to a little bit

about like the just paying attention to the smallest details.

>> Y >> um this is something that I think is really important too. He's like most people don't consciously notice the small details but they do subconsciously. Your mind takes in an

subconsciously. Your mind takes in an overall impression. You know if

overall impression. You know if something is appealing or not even though you may not be able to point out exactly why that sense is a summation of many details. Most of us experience this

many details. Most of us experience this as that's ugly or that's beautiful or wow that's elegant or but that but we cannot break down why pay attention to little details train yourself to notice

them. When I read that section I thought

them. When I read that section I thought about it's what Steve Jobs was I think maybe the best in history at and he has this great way of describing this. He

says that a great product is better than it has to be. Yeah, I think Elon is underrated in his design sense actually.

Like um there's a lot of times when you you hear Elon quotes that sound exactly like Steve Jobs would have said. There's

an important piece of the design in particular for cars. Um and a lot of the he thinks about it like an algorithm, right? Like there's certain specific

right? Like there's certain specific things ratios that have to exist between the product or it needs to feel bigger on the inside than it looks on the

outside. um that he just absolutely

outside. um that he just absolutely insists on. And there's stories,

insists on. And there's stories, especially from early Tesla, of him being like unreasonable about design decisions that he's just puts a finger on. He's like, "It has to be this way or

on. He's like, "It has to be this way or it's not good enough. It's not beautiful enough. It's not aesthetic enough." Um

enough. It's not aesthetic enough." Um

in the same way that Steve Jobs was very much like, "No, put a handle on that computer because it changes the relationship that somebody has with this like kind of new foreign machine."

Something I thought about when I was reading your book was, you know, the idea is like we're going to have a a single organizing principle to see to track like the progress on this particular product or this particular company. It kind of breaks things down

company. It kind of breaks things down to like a singular objective or a singular uh something he repeats.

There's a a line in Sam Walton's autobiography which I thought was very interesting because we're talking about like you know Elon has not only started the companies but now these companies are at scale. Yeah. And Sam's like listen it's in human nature to over

complicate things. As your company grows

complicate things. As your company grows you are going to add bureaucracy and your job as the founder is to beat bureaucracy back over the line and you're going to beat it back over the line and it's going to creep back up and you're going to beat it back over the

line that that eb and flow will never stop. And one way that Elon talks about

stop. And one way that Elon talks about this in the book that I thought was interesting, he's just like for any company, you just ask yourself a very simple question. Are the efforts that

simple question. Are the efforts that we're doing right now, are the efforts that we're expending resulting in a better product or service? If they

they're if they're not, then you stop those efforts. It's a easily forgotten

those efforts. It's a easily forgotten truth. Like Tesla doesn't advertise.

truth. Like Tesla doesn't advertise.

They just all the money back into the product or all the money back into the next product. There's stories about uh

next product. There's stories about uh the rift between him and his cousins doing Solar City because Solar City was a very like salesdriven organization. So

like door-to-d dooror sales, they weren't as focused on product differentiation and he just like he was on the board and he just came in like a maniac on their product and it was like why do these clips exist? Why these

roofs take so long to install? Why are

they so expensive to install? And he was like adopting that super Steve Jobs like make a beautiful product. Make it an obviously better thing. Um get rid of these sales people. like I don't want this to be I don't want the organization

to be better at selling a mediocre product. I want it to be better at

product. I want it to be better at creating an excellent product that sells itself. That is his whole ethos.

itself. That is his whole ethos.

>> Yeah, I like the point that you made that like he applies the same idea to at the product level and at the company level. So this idea where he's like

level. So this idea where he's like please go ultra hardcore on simplification and deletion. It's like

in the product and in the company is a great he he he repeats the same idea in different ways too which I thought was interesting like eliminate what isn't necessary to solve the key problem. And

so he gives an example of what what is he talking about there. Early versions

of Starship didn't even have doors. We

didn't need doors. We we did need to be super focused on getting to orbit. Doors

were just unnecessary complexity. The

first 10 ships or more we were not going to get back from orbit. So then again >> understanding that failure is built into it like we're seeking the limits or we are going to fail things. Uh and then then he talks about again this genius

has the fewest moving parts. It's really

hard to scale something that's complex.

So he says scale has value in itself.

For example, the same computer that controls a tiny rocket controls the big rocket. The percentage of weight of the

rocket. The percentage of weight of the electronics is significant in a small rocket but becomes vanishingly small in a big one. Yeah. Which this is the same logic that he applies to factories,

right? Like the the inherent value of

right? Like the the inherent value of scale. Just make something extremely big

scale. Just make something extremely big and diminish the fixed cost as much as you can. and the value of volume like

you can. and the value of volume like making these leaps between you know that's why they started with sports car because you can have like a unit profitable thing at small volume then the Model S then the Model 3 the same

thing he's doing with the rockets right Falcon 1 to Falcon 9 um the the ability to sequence the strategy through different products different escars and

have it be profitable the at each sort of stable equilibrium is a really important piece that I think for all the talk about how he's like a visionary and

builds these products. He's still really economical about how he goes about it, which I think is very u very overrated or underrated piece of his genius.

>> Well, another thing you do a good job in the book of is you give multiple examples of the same idea >> and again all these ideas relate to each other and so he talks about like why did

they move remove the landing legs? I

think this is of Starship 3. Uh and he says again here we try to think to the limit of physics. The problem with landing legs is they add mass. We have

to protect them during re-entry and we have to get a giant rocket from wherever it landed back onto the launch stand.

That is tricky. I was trying to think of the limit. What's the fastest way to

the limit. What's the fastest way to achieve reusability? It would be to land

achieve reusability? It would be to land on the launch stand. So he talks about, you know, planes land and then they immediately take off again. That's what

we want to do with rockets. It would be to land on the launch stand. Why not

just have it land on the arms of the tower it launches from? So again, which is a crazy thing. When we talked about it first, it sounded batshit crazy.

Direct quote from Elon, to custom build a giant tower to catch the heaviest flying object ever made with mechanical arms. Pluck it out of the air, but we did it. It is an epic site. Giant robot

did it. It is an epic site. Giant robot

arms catching a giant rocket. That is a great story because it exemplifies a few different things, right? There's the

thinking and limits part. Like what is the platonic ideal? how good could it be if we were just dreaming and then it seemed impossible. And he's got a really

seemed impossible. And he's got a really um specific tactic he does when he's when he's exploring. He says what's possible within the absurd. And so he

takes these crazy ideas and throws them out. And people are like that's crazy.

out. And people are like that's crazy.

That wouldn't work. That would be absurd. And he asks, "What would it

absurd. And he asks, "What would it take? Don't tell me no. Tell me what

take? Don't tell me no. Tell me what would have to be true. What would it take to make it possible?" what he finds and what there this comes up over and over again is stories is what first

seems impossible and people push back and he sort of gives it like a day um and then people start to like churn on it a little bit and then he asks more questions questions more assumptions ask

what it would take again and then like within a week people start to be like wait a minute this might be possible um and and I think he's been through this loop enough times where people are like no that's crazy they dismiss it he

pushes back he says says, "What would it take?" He says, "Do the brainstorm." He

take?" He says, "Do the brainstorm." He

says, "Just spend a day or spend a week designing it. Just assume that it's

designing it. Just assume that it's possible and start working on it to see how far you can get." And so many times like what seems impossible, he'll be there's no fundamental law of physics reason why this is impossible. And I

think all of this actually goes back to his belief that like engineering is magic and the laws of physics are the limit of the magic. And so not analogy, not what have we designed before, not

what problems have already been solved, not what do our current methods let us achieve, but like what is the limit of what's theoretically possible? And he's

just going to be unreasonable in pushing as far as he can towards that. And he's

seen over and over again that when he holds that line and asks, "What would it take?" and says, "Keep trying. I know

take?" and says, "Keep trying. I know

it's hard. Keep trying. You've just got to muscle through. there's there's no reason this isn't possible. Show me why it's impossible or keep working on it.

And people respond to those pushes and do achieve things that seem impossible over and over again. I think the book that you wrote is really important. What

I want to do is I'm going to buy a,000 copies. Uh I will leave a link down in

copies. Uh I will leave a link down in the show notes. So maybe the first thousand people that click that link, I'll buy a copy of the book for them cuz I do think like what you're doing is

like think about how crazy it is. Elon

has a 35 year career as an entrepreneur so far or something around that way. You

spent 5 years and thousands of hours distilling the way he thinks about building companies and products and new technologies into a book somebody could read in 5 hours, 10 hours. Like that is

insanely valuable. I do want to end our

insanely valuable. I do want to end our conversation with what I think is most important to you and I and what we're both trying to do with work. This entire

reason I'm doing this new show is like a celebration of capitalism. It is a love letter to capitalism. It is, hey, you know what? If you want a role model, how

know what? If you want a role model, how about somebody that started a company that built a product and made somebody else's life better, that created wealth for their their the employees, that that created jobs, they created wealth for themselves and their family. Like these

things should be applauded. And it's

exactly what Elon says here. So, I want to close here. He says it is insanely hard to build and ship useful products to a large number of people. There's a

hell of a lot of difference between a company that has shipped a product and one that hasn't. It is night and day. If

you create great products and services which create wealth, that should be applauded. You increase the standard of

applauded. You increase the standard of living of the country and perhaps the world. Thanks for writing the book.

world. Thanks for writing the book.

Thanks for taking the time to have this conversation.

>> Thank you for having me. I'm honored.

>> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please

remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review. And make

sure you listen to my other podcast, Founders. For almost a decade, I've

Founders. For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear

your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through founders.