How Hims & Hers Reached a $4.3BN Market Cap on $2.3BN of Revenue | Andrew Dudum

One of the things I learned earliest in my career is if you can't hire people that are smarter than you, you will fail. What you gain confidence in with

fail. What you gain confidence in with brand marketing over time is that consistency is required. Now, I am so excited for the show today. We have

Andrew Dunham, founder and CEO of HIMS. Hims are reinventing healthcare, but wow, it's been a tough 6 months. They

are down 66%. They've got a market cap of 4.35 billion as of today, but they do over 2.3 billion in revenue. It's nuts.

I'm so excited to sit down with Andrew today where we discuss this and so much more.

When you're disrupting an industry, you have to have a team that is used to being uncomfortable and used to getting through it and used to staying calm and having that resilience. I might be the only person that believes this, but I

think running the company in the public markets is more fun than being private.

Ready to go.

Andrew, it's been like six, seven years.

Like I was I was young and fresh when when we lost I was I was a lot younger. We looked a lot better back then, but I say we're pretty good by now.

I I listen I think life's been pretty kind to both of us. Um, can I start with a super weird one? And you might be like, "Dude, I thought we were buddies, but I I speak to so many public company

CEOs today and I I can't find a happy one."

one." Seriously, I'm You know what? I think I think I might be the only person that believes this, but I think running the company in the public markets is more fun than

being private.

Why? You get [ __ ] on every day, dude. I

see it and I'm like, "Oh, poor Andrew."

And I so remember our dinner with your lovely wife. And I'm like, "Oh, I so

lovely wife. And I'm like, "Oh, I so nice." And I see the [ __ ] on.

nice." And I see the [ __ ] on.

I love it.

You do?

I I love it for a few reasons. One, um,

if you're a highly competitive person, you get to put out high benchmarks every 90 days and see if you can actually deliver on it. And you can build a high performance team to say, "Hey, we put

this out and it's a big stretch. Let's

go kick ass and figure it out. When

you're private, it's so easy to get to get cozy. You know, the worst case

get cozy. You know, the worst case scenario if you got some VCs that call you and they're stressed out about something. But in the public markets,

something. But in the public markets, it's like it's boot camp. It's it's like you got to be you have to deliver. So, I

love that from a competitive standpoint.

I also love the the the ability to hire talent like in the public markets because they they can see the vision and you're forced to not only talk about where you're going to go 10 years from now, but if you're going to

actually like make steps quarter to quarter to prove it. So, as a competitive person, I think it's a lot of fun. Also, when you step back, like,

of fun. Also, when you step back, like, you know, we we went public really early. We went public after like uh I

early. We went public after like uh I think 36 months of launching, which was a little bit crazy. Um when you look at the biggest companies in the world they went public within a first few years of

launching Google, Facebook, Apple, Amazon all of them like they didn't stay private for 10 20 years you know they forced the founder was forced to figure it out in the public markets how we're

going to grow how we're going to get efficient and how we're going to tell a big vision and and I think that's a lot of fun.

I love that. Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon.

Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's It's

actually one of the oldest marketing tricks ever, which is like marketing by association. You know this? It's called

association. You know this? It's called

Six Flags. Do you remember Six Flags?

The really [ __ ] theme parks. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I don't know them cuz I'm British, but like they wanted to be better than everyone else and so they just did massive billboards that said not as good as Disney.

Smart.

Very smart. Very smart.

I know. Yeah. I like a good marketing.

Um fascinated. You said there about going uh public so early. If you were sitting down with like the Collisons today, Yeah.

would you tell them to go public?

I think if your business is ready from an from an from a predictability standpoint and you have a long-term orientation, then I would encourage you to go public. I think you those two things have to be true. I think you have

to actually be able to predict your business with consistency because you can't enter the markets without that confidence. Um, and you also have to be

confidence. Um, and you also have to be ready to sign up for a decade or two in the markets, right? This is not something it's not a quick exit. It's

not a liquidity event. It's it's the beginning. And so I would I would

beginning. And so I would I would encourage any founder that has those two dynamics to consider it.

Do you think you can do what you want to do from a long-term strategic objective standpoint and have the, as you said, I love it, the 90-day ticker of like, hey, we've got to go hard for the 90 days.

I think you do. It takes it takes discipline. I think it takes hiring the

discipline. I think it takes hiring the right people. You know, I think I I

right people. You know, I think I I focus on hiring a certain type of people. um you know they're not

people. um you know they're not particularly fancy in background.

They're not credentialed with like all of the really great tech companies. Like

that's not what I look for. I look for mostly people who have been builders and have gone through some [ __ ] is like the honest reality. So if you look at our

honest reality. So if you look at our team um you know Yi our CFO he was you know the divisional CFO of Uber during COVID the whole business disappeared overnight and he had to figure it out.

uh or deer our chief product officer she was at games she was at Robin Hood during GameStop right had to figure out that chaos or do you seek out do you seek out crisis in their lives I know it sounds stupid

you you've mentioned two very iconic yeah I seek out grit I seek out a lot of grit um because I think when you're disrupting an industry which we are and and even in the last year our category

has exploded and changed and and been fraught with all types of chaos you have to have a team that is used to being uncomfortable and used to getting through it and used to staying calm and

having that that resilience. And so I absolutely search for people that have seen those types of ups and down and and thrived in them because I think when you're disrupting it's just inevitable that that's going to happen.

I spoke to so many people around you like really I thought the [ __ ] out of you again which was nice cuz I know you but like to to kind of hear stories from owning doughut shops. U didn't tell me

that did you? uh my my Augustus group was coming out there, but the the talent element was one and they said in particular Jules Moltz I think it was from IVP said that you're incredible

when it comes to acquisition and retention. What do people get most wrong

retention. What do people get most wrong do you think about acquiring great talent today? I think often people as

talent today? I think often people as they scale, maybe founders as they scale, um fall into the trap of trying

to hire people that um have seen bigger scale than them and are more strategic and they they feel like they've gotten to the point of success where now it's time where they uplevel the talent to

non-starty folks, right, to like real professional people. Uh and I think that

professional people. Uh and I think that is a huge huge mistake. Huge mistake.

Um, you know, when I look at, you know, Chris Payne is on our board, who's one of my mentor, Chris?

Yeah. Chris, a great guy. I think one of the best operators I've ever met. And

when I look at the team over at that that Tony's built at Door Dash, you know, that team is is an operating machine. And they're huge, right? It's a

machine. And they're huge, right? It's a

8000 billion dollar company. Um, yet

they're still operating with speed and focus like a startup. And I think so much of that is because the team that Tony's assembled around them is a team of operators that love to build. Uh and

and so I think as you scale there's a pressure to go hire that big strategy person with who who has more credentials than you and it's kind of it feels almost confidence inducing as a founder

to like get to that level. And I think you have to fight that at all costs. I

I've made mistakes. I've hired people like that because I thought it would was the right move. and and have always come back to find people who love the mission, who love to build, who are tactically excellent at what what the

function actually requires. Um, and

again, who are gritty as hell.

What are you not excellent at in the role of CEO, but persist relentlessly despite your lack of skill.

So many things, so many things. I mean, I'm constantly trying to find the balance of being in the weeds and building a team that can scale independently of me, right? Like

you're you're that that line of how hands-on you should be, how strategically involved you should be, how tactically involved you should be versus where do you where do you come down on that then? Because we have the founder

that then? Because we have the founder mode and the you know, I love Ryan at Flexport, but like the I'm so in the weeds and I love him for it. Yeah, I

think you have to I think you have to be intentional about where you get into the weeds. Um I I don't believe in this

weeds. Um I I don't believe in this concept of like every design review comes through me, everything that ships comes through me, every decision comes through me. Like it's you one of the

through me. Like it's you one of the things I learned earliest in my career is if you can't hire people that are smarter than you, you will fail. And

young managers struggle with this all this time. all the time. They they're

this time. all the time. They they're

scared to hire people that are better than them because they feel like if I hire somebody better than me, well, what the what the [ __ ] am I even doing here?

Why am I here if I just hired somebody who's better than me? And in fact, it's completely the opposite. If you want to continue to scale in our organization or any organization that's growing, you have to realize that your job is

changing every 12 months, right? To

level yourself up to the next next highest leverage focus area. In order to do that, you have to replace yourself every 12 months with talent equal or better always. And so, um, to me, that's

better always. And so, um, to me, that's a really important realization that as as a CEO and founder, which is I want to hire people better than me and and so I trust them. Yet, at the same time, if

trust them. Yet, at the same time, if there are specific areas of the business that are critical, um, either strategic decisions or tactical implementations being worked on, you have to know when you go deep and you need to acknowledge

to the team, hey, this is something that's really important. I'm going to go deep on it. I'm not going to go deep on everything, but this is important. I'm

I'm going to be in the weeds here. Dude,

I sit in these boards nowadays and honestly, they're mostly useless. It's

so exhausting. Um, and AI is at the top of every big company board discussion topic. Okay. No [ __ ]

topic. Okay. No [ __ ] Yeah.

How does your business change with AI?

How many people do you have today?

About 2,000 employees.

Okay. You have 2,000 employees. How many

do you think you'll have in 2030?

That's a great question. probably not

many more than two to three thousand.

That's a big range.

Yeah, we operate about a million square feet of pharmacy fulfillment throughout the US. And so we have a a large chunk

the US. And so we have a a large chunk of labor force which is actually just variable labor responsible for actually pharmacy oversight, pharmacy um review

and actually shipment of medication. AI

can do a lot uh in regard to efficiency for core product engineering, accounting, finance, marketing, etc. But when you're actually running facilities, physical facilities, and a lot of this

is actually required doctor and pharmacy oversight, you know, those you can't get as much leverage on.

Are you pushing AI down into every function of the or Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Are you seeing it have dramatic implications that we we have we have ange and we have customer support. I think we

customer support. I think we overexaggerate elsewhere where it has impact.

I think those two areas are critical.

We're also seeing it have massive leverage in design, right? So, we deploy about a billion dollars in marketing spend every year across the Hims and

Hers brands and the u you know the cost to do a live photo shoot uh the speed of a food photo shoot for every single product launch you know we probably have thousands of variations of TV

commercials uh Facebook ads Google ads etc. The speed of iteration with AI in that function I think is actually one of the most tangible that I've seen across our organization

in terms of cost reduction and in terms of supply expansion.

It's mostly in regard to output. You

know, I would say it's you have the same team but you're probably delivering three to four times the amount. The

other area that we see a big degree uh improvement is actually on the clinical side. So we treat you know 10,000 plus

side. So we treat you know 10,000 plus patients a day. We're probably the largest health care system in the US. Uh

if you actually look at volume of patients treated um and now with recent markets, you know, definitely the the largest globally from a digital health standpoint. And if you can apply AI to

standpoint. And if you can apply AI to the the medical side, the ER, the EMR, right, where doctors are actually making clinical decisions and it can help you know give guidance with regard to

certain protocols and speed up that that process. That is a a huge amount of

process. That is a a huge amount of leverage for the clinical end um from an efficiency standpoint, but it's also a meaningful improvement in quality because you have essentially a uh you

know an intelligent brain helping standardize care across thousands of doctors that are making decisions every single minute.

When you speak about the explosion of the business, that explosion is driven largely by you GLP1s and weight loss.

How much of that is the core business today? Is it like 80% weight loss, 20%

today? Is it like 80% weight loss, 20% everything else? What does that look

everything else? What does that look like?

No, no. I think that's one of the funny things about our business is we are constantly in the headlines as a single category business. When we first

category business. When we first launched, when you and I first met, we were the erectile dysfunction business, right? And it was, you know, front page

right? And it was, you know, front page of New York Times and it was uh fun and silly and provocative and all we did from everyone's perspective was ED. Uh

and then we launched hair and then all of a sudden it was like we're a hair loss business. Uh, and then we launched

loss business. Uh, and then we launched the HERS business and everyone said, "Oh, hers is never going to work. You're

just an ED and hair loss business." Uh,

you know, and then eventually we launched GLP1s and everyone said, "Oh, now you're just a weight loss business."

And, you know, a year from now people will say, "Oh, you're just like a peptides business probably if I were to take a guess, right?" And and so I think the the reality is under the hood is that you have a dozen completely

different clinical categories, completely different businesses, each scaling with very solid robust growth, which is why this business is interesting. Like that's why I run this

interesting. Like that's why I run this business is the durability of it is quite strong because you have 10 different businesses with completely different customer segments. So weight

loss is actually, you know, nowhere near the majority of this business. um um and and I don't think ever will be um just because you're continuing to expand core categories and a lot of new categories.

So, do you run those as separate businesses?

When I had Nick from Revolute on the show, he he said something fascinating.

He said, "We run 26 different product experiments at the same time. I treat it much like a venture incubator and I give them more or less money depending on how well they perform." Do you run them as

like a venture incubation unit?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, when we first met, I was um, you know, over with with with Jack Abraham running atomic ventures for a long time. Um, and

that training of 0ero to one exploration. Um, that is what hims and

exploration. Um, that is what hims and hers is, right? Like I think of it as a public shell for innovation in bringing great healthcare to consumers, which means every year we're testing completely new go to market strategies,

completely new categories. And the way we think about it is internally is just different bets. Um, and some bets you

different bets. Um, and some bets you you starve and some bets you fund and some bets you you ring fence to allow exploration for a year or two. Um, but

they're run uh increasingly independently. And I think the the DNA

independently. And I think the the DNA of management is is to look at it as a portfolio that continues to scale because ultimately in our business, you know, health and wellness, what what

makes up great health and wellness is constantly changing. There's new

constantly changing. There's new diagnostics, there's new devices, there's new drugs, uh there's new learnings about, you know, the sauna and, you know, cold plunges or whatever it might be, whatever's trendy, right?

Like all of this is changing and it's going to continue to accelerate and our job is to curate the best and bring it to people at scale at an affordable cost. And so we have to think about

cost. And so we have to think about this, frankly, as a portfolio that's constantly evolving.

I can't get my head around the sauna, Andrew.

You have to do the sauna four times a week. No, I don't

week. No, I don't for 20 minutes. It cuts all cost. Have

you seen what it does to the motility of your sperm?

Three kids, buddy. Some of us have got none. Okay.

none. Okay.

Got to bring an ice pack in there.

I'm not going to bring an ice pack for my balls. I'm sorry. This is genuinely

my balls. I'm sorry. This is genuinely this was like the most unattractive thing ever. And it's like, you know,

thing ever. And it's like, you know, Huberman's like, "Oh, it extends life by like, you know, three decades." mate.

He's right doing ice pack.

I'll I'll we'll we we'll sauna together next time I'm in London.

I'd I'll do it with you.

All right. There you go. Um you said there about kind of the bets. What did

you do that with the benefit of hindsight you wish you hadn't done? For

us as a business, I think it's important to constantly be in a customer's mind, the mind share of the new evolving health and wellness

categories. And so I think in many

categories. And so I think in many categories we've been um quick to market and in many categories we've been kind of like uh you know patient to market.

And in retrospect I constantly am kind of evolving my perspective on like how fast we should be there. My net net takeaway is I don't think we actually need to be first ever in market. Um I

want to be best in market. And so when I think of new categories, peptides for an example, right? You know, a lot of

example, right? You know, a lot of conversation about 10 15 peptides going from class 2 category 2 to category 1 compounding so that people can actually

get access to things like BBC 157, TB500. This is an incredibly interesting

TB500. This is an incredibly interesting category. You won't see us be first to

category. You won't see us be first to market in this category. Um you'll see us when we launch it feel extremely confident in the clinical protocols extremely confident in the guardrails

make sure that the supply chain and the quality is done to a level we are you know feel is bulletproof from a pharmaceutical standpoint so you know there's a lot of a lot of introspection

uh in my in my brain around speed and prioritization of which categories to enter but what I always come back to is not being first but being best so that from a brand standpoint people know him

and hers to be high quality and trusted.

Like when we actually bring something to market, you know it's safe. You know

it's done right and you know it could be something that's that's powerful and and important for your for your health.

I always remember um Hugo Bar who was the product guy from Xiaomi and he said on the show when you're doing anything in physical product you need to choose one. You need to be feature king or you

one. You need to be feature king or you need to be price king.

Yeah.

What are you? I think you have to be both for us. I think you have to have the

for us. I think you have to have the best at the most affordable price eventually.

How come it was $1,800 to $2,000 for WGO and a Zmpe then, which wasn't wholesale?

Well, what is it now?

Well, the self-pay price at the time was $300 to 400.

Yeah, it's down to about $149 in 18 months on him.

We just announced the WGOI pill 149.

So I think I think for Is that post Novo deal though?

Oh yeah. Yeah. It's through partnership.

No absolutely.

Totally get you. So So we want to be price king and feature king.

I think for us we want to curate the absolute best at prices the masses can afford. And I think the way you do that

afford. And I think the way you do that is you you work with ecosystem partners.

You leverage the scale of the platform.

Right? We're the largest global distributor at this point probably of of medicines. Um and so by able to then

medicines. Um and so by able to then working with you know the best diagnostic companies, the cancer grail detection company. I don't know if

detection company. I don't know if you've ever taken this test. Um

this is a test that I've been taking for 5 years. I've had everyone in my family

5 years. I've had everyone in my family take because there's there's cancer in my family. It's called the gallery test

my family. It's called the gallery test by Grail. Um, it's a blood test and it

by Grail. Um, it's a blood test and it can detect, you know, 50 to 100 cancers and it and it focuses specifically, it's best at from a clinical standpoint some of the harder to find cancers, uh,

prostate pancreatic ovarian and cancer. Um, and it's a simple blood

cancer. Um, and it's a simple blood test. Uh, you know, we, this blood test

test. Uh, you know, we, this blood test was thousands of dollars for the last few years. We were able to work directly

few years. We were able to work directly with with Grail, bring that test, I think it's in market now in his and hers at like 600 bucks. Um, and my hope is over the coming years I'll continue to come down to a few hundred bucks where

everybody could do this on an annual basis like going to the dentist, right?

It's just check to see if there's any early signs, any early protein indicators of of stage one cancer tumors. So, so there's an arc, right?

tumors. So, so there's an arc, right?

When the GLP1s first came out, it was $2,000 list price. We pli applied incredible pressure to the drug companies. Um, I think the current

companies. Um, I think the current administration, the US did an amazing job. Um and and thanks to the drug

job. Um and and thanks to the drug companies, they actually agreed to bring them down from the thousands of dollars to $150 to $200 cash pay prices. I mean,

that is like completely transformative.

It's not something that's really happened in pharmaceutical uh history that the blockbuster drug of the century gets cut by 80% in 18 months, right? And

and the reason for that, I think the reason it happened in part is because companies like us and consumers applied massive pressure to change the distribution model, right? In 18 months, the distribution model has completely

changed in pharmaceuticals in the US.

Instead of going through PBMs and insurance, they're going straight to customers through platforms like ours at prices everyday people can afford. And

so there's an arc to that price uh reduction, but I think for us, we want to have the absolute best um and also want to be able to apply pressure to bring that cost down as much as we can.

Do you think like a pill pack sold too soon when you think about the erosion of PBM's power that you mentioned there and how challenging it was for a business like pill pack?

You know, I don't I don't know too much about pillac to be totally honest. I I I I don't what I what I don't believe is that the pharmacy fulfillment part of

our business independently is a particularly valuable business. How

should I think about the preventative health care companies that I'm pitched every day? Whether it's your prenovos or

every day? Whether it's your prenovos or your necos in the UK, which is expanding to you, is that the future? Some are much deeper, some are much shallower, some

are much more expensive. How do you understand analyze that space? Is that

something that HIMS would do?

We spend a ton of time looking at that space and and have actually we did a partnership with Pernovo that was announced just a couple of weeks ago. Um

I I think where there's a lot of interesting companies right now is in highly specialized levels of testing for clinical areas that are that are um

meaningfully unmet. Right? So you look

meaningfully unmet. Right? So you look at things like uh cardiovascular disease um right still one of the number one killers. Most dads die of a heart

killers. Most dads die of a heart attack. Um yet a statin is you know two

attack. Um yet a statin is you know two cents for me to manufacture. And if you take a statin every day, um, then you won't die of a heart attack or you're meaningfully less likely to have a heart

attack. Yet, nobody does it. And so

attack. Yet, nobody does it. And so

there's there's, you know, biotech companies right now working on therapies where a single injection quarterly or a single injection annually can absolutely

obliterate your cardiovascular risk. And

if you can do something like that, you meaningfully, you know, curve that rate of death and you get ahead on prevention for cardiovascular disease. Prennovo, I

think, is is another interesting one, right? It's it's how do we get ahead of

right? It's it's how do we get ahead of detection for things like cancer and and early tumor detection. You know, my my dad, you know, had stage 4 colon cancer when he was 39. It then costs the health

care system, you know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions of dollars to have surgery and then treat him for many years with chemotherapy, right? And then

chemotherapy, right? And then afterwards, the care involved to to kind of get him back to a steady state. The

idea of an annual exam that can scan your body for early signs, early proteins through blood testing or early actually imaging signs that can detect, you know, a millimeter size tumor is

incredibly fascinating. Now, I think a

incredibly fascinating. Now, I think a lot of clinical people um and they're smart, you know, believe something like that is not yet ready for mainstream and it might not be, right? I I kind of choose to be opportunistic in giving

people um uh the ability to make those trade-offs for themselves. I take

Prennovo annually. So, you know, I recommend it to my family. Is it

perfect? Absolutely not.

How much is POV?

I think now it's maybe about a,000 or 1,500 bucks a month a year.

Okay, that's better than I thought.

Yeah. And so I think and again these are these are machines that cost $500,000 onetime purchase to to buy. Um but then you're charging, you know, a,000 or

$2,000 a month or a year. Um and so the idea that this cost could come down dramatically is very real, right? A 500k

machine capitalized over a decade, you know, that co the cost could come down to something like $300 a year to do this test eventually. Um, and that's where my

test eventually. Um, and that's where my brain goes when I'm thinking about the future is what are the the Swiss cheese layers we can give people that together

make up really great prevention working backwards from what we know causes uh, you know, shortening of life and and health span. is the biggest threat to

health span. is the biggest threat to your business not actually open AI and if chat GPT is the kind of consumer interface with a lot of healthcare questions that people have today which

you know it is in most cases actually and that's why obviously health is a big focus for them is it not the most natural extension ever that they extend that into delivery supply being your

ondemand doctor something that people have been talking about a lot actually Dario was mentioning this recently I think some of the most defensible businesses in the age of, you know, anthropic and open AI

are businesses that actually do something physical. Like they they

something physical. Like they they require actual specialization and they require infrastructure.

And uh a huge part of what we do every single day is treat tens of thousands of patients with thousands of doctors that are specialized and licensed in every

state or country in the world and then actually help make people medicine. Um

and this is a million square feet of pharmacy fulfillment. This is, you know,

pharmacy fulfillment. This is, you know, hundreds of pharmacists and robotic machines that are actually compounding treatments or fulfilling branded pharmaceuticals. So when I actually

pharmaceuticals. So when I actually think about the most uh the most defensive businesses, the businesses that can thrive in the age of AI and actually be enabled by them are ones

where the conversation of something like Chat GBD massively expands the funnel of people engaging in health and wellness, but then can be driven to a platform that actually connects them with the

specialist and connects them with the products and actually can get that delivered to their door. Um, and

ultimately I think we're a combination of all of those businesses together. So

uh you know I think there's there's a lot of opportunity with with that funnel that opens up with things like uh chatbt.

I agree with you in terms of like physical infrastructure and real world requirements meaning there's just inherently more value there cuz it's harder to do. So does that look like a partnership then? Say I come in and I

partnership then? Say I come in and I say hey I've got a I don't know a rash here um and I'm worried about it and then they siphon it off to him. So how

what does that relationship look like?

Yeah, I mean I think it's similar to what you see on Google. I don't think it's going to be all that much different, right? That you'll be able to

different, right? That you'll be able to to partner directly with uh anthropic and chatbt and and find patients that are looking for certain services and then have handoffs to specialized

implementations, right? It's it's going

implementations, right? It's it's going to be um I think there's great opportunities to partner with all of these players.

We mentioned kind of transition of how people like consume healthcare. in terms

of how people find you. I actually had Eran from Monday on the show which was a fascinating show and he said that with AI overview on Google that they've lost

18% or I might be butchering maybe 15 15 to 18% of their uh adwords in terms of acquisition.

How are you seeing the way that people find him change?

you know, it hasn't had particularly dramatic changes since um since, you know, some of these new AI companies have have grown. I think for us, a huge

number of people that come to us are are firsttime patients interested in some of these care categories. And so, they're hearing about it through, you know, watching Fox News. They're hearing about

it through watching uh NFL on Thursday nights. They're hearing about it from

nights. They're hearing about it from their friend who all of a sudden is feeling great. and the friend is talking

feeling great. and the friend is talking about the treatments that they're on or or the fact that they're getting care from him and hers. So, I think more and more for us, the brand and the the spend

is moving towards channels where you're talking about the opportunity to feel great. You're not relying on, you know,

great. You're not relying on, you know, maybe the the AdWords Google funnel that that you mentioned. I do think those businesses inevitably will have struggle

in transitioning to some of the the um you know the chatbased interfaces but there will be ad networks that are built through those chatbased interfaces that that eventually just replace them. So um

ultimately I'm not sure it will matter but for us I think a increasing amount of spend is actually going towards just telling people about all of the new things him and hers is doing. The fact

that you can feel great the fact that it's affordable and you can come check it out. Um, and it's it's a lot of

it out. Um, and it's it's a lot of market creation both in the US and globally versus latent demand that you're capturing through through some of these more streamlined channels.

If I gave you an unlimited checkbook, what would you spend on today that you're not currently spending on?

I would definitely sponsor um Ferrari F1 because I I' I've told my wife that if I were to have one job that wasn't my current job, it would be a

Ferrari driver. Um, uh, but she did not

Ferrari driver. Um, uh, but she did not really like that that answer. Um, no,

but I think we were probably Do you think that would be a net positive for HIMS as a business? Don't

laugh.

The Ferrari sponsorship.

Yeah, at this point probably not because I'm not sure we're we're live in every market with the penetration we would want where that that global footprint matters. Um, I think eventually it

matters. Um, I think eventually it would. I think eventually in the coming

would. I think eventually in the coming years, you know, World Cup and and global sponsorship opportunities actually do matter because we are, you know, this year was a a huge level of

commitment to win internationally. I

mean, we we did not dip our toe. I mean,

we we acquired three or four companies very large.

Eucalyptus for like one and a half billion in cash somewhere around there.

So, I mean, how does that come to be, dude?

You know what? It it comes to be because you get to know the people really well.

I've known Tim probably four or five years. I think he was the best operator

years. I think he was the best operator overseas. No question. I mean, his

overseas. No question. I mean, his understanding of the customer, his ability to build a team that just moves fast experiments um is willing to take risks and fail. I

mean, when I first met Tim, he was live in like six or seven markets and it was all failing. And he was telling me how

all failing. And he was telling me how chaotic it was and I was like, "I don't know, man. This sounds crazy. You're in

know, man. This sounds crazy. You're in

like Indonesia, you're in Japan, you're in all these different places. is like,

"Is it going to work?" He's like, "I'm not sure, but we're going to try it."

And then a year later, he's like, "Okay, it didn't work. We're we're like toning it back. We're going to focus here."

it back. We're going to focus here."

Like his his his humility and his willingness to experiment and test and learn is incredible. And and because of that, they've just moved so much faster than everybody else. I mean, they're the dominant player in Australia, dominant

player in the UK, dominant player in Germany, uh you know, quickly growing in Japan. I mean, it's just a phenomenal

Japan. I mean, it's just a phenomenal business. And I think the power of what

business. And I think the power of what we built in the US from a cash flow standpoint has enabled us in the last four or five years to buy that business with pretty, you know, moderate

dilution, right? Because you can

dilution, right? Because you can actually just fund the purchase of it off the balance sheet um over the next couple of years, which is incredible.

And so we have committed a huge amount of dollars in focus internationally because I just think the opportunity for the brand um is pretty consistent whether there's a national system in in

the UK or or not. People are

they give you is they give you cold sweats at night being as aggressive as you have been as quickly as you have been. You know I remember interviewing

been. You know I remember interviewing Dax from Lightseed Dax to Silver and he mentioned the challenge Lightseed the POS system in a lot of restaurants and he mentioned the challenge in acquiring

so much so quickly. I think they made like 18 acquisitions in like 2-year period. Are you worried of like oh [ __ ]

period. Are you worried of like oh [ __ ] I now have to integrate Eucalyptus and these three other businesses? Definitely

you you there is a very fine line of of uh driving so fast that you're losing control. There's no question about that.

control. There's no question about that.

Um what I found at least in running this business is is if you don't feel like you are getting close to that line, you're probably not pushing hard enough.

And so I do think um that uncomfortable gut feeling where you're constantly questioning, constantly evaluating, constantly tweaking the strategy or the

tactics, like that feeling is what uh uh success feels like. And so I've I've kind of taught my team that we're going to get really comfortable with that feeling. we're going to get really

feeling. we're going to get really comfortable sitting in that feeling and questioning and and re-evaluating and pushing um because I think that's how you win, right? Like um I was a rower in

high school and I remember, you know, my coach saying, you know, the the the group of guys out there that is willing to be the most uncomfortable and in the most pain are going to win this race.

And and that's actually true in that sport. And that's true in in you know,

sport. And that's true in in you know, in most sports. said, I didn't think that's true in business is like if you can put yourself in environments where you're being aggressive but smart, taking the right bets, but have a team

that is, you know, bought into the mission and comfortable with that level of of aggressive risk and I think I think it's the right formula. So to me, that's what makes this fun.

When with the benefit of hindsight did you push too hard and you had to pull back in the early years? And and I think we still I still, you know, try to moderate this with our business. Like we could

launch we could launch so many things within like a month. You know, you could launch a um a skincare routine. You

could launch like a makeup brand. You

could launch sleep vitamins. You could

launch like a wearable device. You I

mean there's just like anything people are doing in health and wellness could live in the Hims and Hers brand, which is pretty powerful and also extremely um risky, right? because if you if you do

risky, right? because if you if you do too much and you you move into the wrong areas, you you waste a ton of resource.

So in the early years um you know I thought just having everything on the platform was how you win. And so we invested in uh skinincare regimens and we invested in vitamin supplements and

we invested in you know so many things that in retrospect were were fairly commodity products. um and and for

commodity products. um and and for pretty much the same price or even less, you could walk across the street to Walgreens and get something that was pretty much the same thing. And I think that that was a massive mistake. You

know, I think it was it was a belief that just assortment won. And I think there's a more nuance perspective that the right assortment wins. And and so um

we're we're really careful about categories we enter, products we launch to make sure that they're products and offerings that that are actually differentiated for people that are hard for other people to receive and get get

access to. And maybe that means it's

access to. And maybe that means it's pharmaceutical grade, it's manufactured in in a way that is is you know very very challenging to get quality um or there's a level of personalization that

is required in this care of treatment that makes it unique to you. But when I think about some of the early DTOC brands um that launched, you know, they were selling commodity products and those products capped out at you know a

billion in revenue or you know a couple hundred million in Facebook spend and the curves were like this and that's my nightmare you know and and so um in the early years made a lot of those mistakes and and you know try to try to make sure

we we don't do that again. I I do want to go back to the brand marketing element just because I I suppose you mentioned obviously brand being a core component of like the defensibility.

Yeah. When I when I interviewed Nick at Revolute, he said brand marketing was the single biggest thing he's changed his mind on in the journey of Revolute, which I thought was an interesting statement.

What do you know now about brand marketing and spend on things that seem fasile? What do you know now that you

fasile? What do you know now that you wish you'd known?

You know, I think what you what you gain confidence in with brand marketing over time is that consistency um

consistency is required. So I think in the early years with brand marketing as companies are growing, they throw some dollars, you know, let's do an out of home campaign in New York because it's like really cool. It's like take over

subways, right? Which we did a ton of.

subways, right? Which we did a ton of.

and they do it once and every this team is so [ __ ] excited because it's so cool and you can see it and you take pictures of it. Um but you do it once um and then like months go by and and it

gets taken off and then and then that's it, right? Um because you did it and it

it, right? Um because you did it and it was fun and cool and you look at the numbers and like ah maybe there's like a little spike in New York City maybe on this day like you can't really tell probably not but you you hopeful. Um and

then the next year like okay what are we going to do this year right? Like that's

just like it's a guaranteed way to just lose money. It's a great way to feel

lose money. It's a great way to feel good and it's super fun. It's like so much fun and we've done a ton of it and it's really fun. But like that's not a business strategy. I think in order to

business strategy. I think in order to have brand marketing work, I think it has to be consistent. It has to be consistently random if that makes sense.

Like you have to be appearing in different places for people in a randomized way but with consistency because it's the multiple hits. like you

have to be hit 10 different times in 10 different ways for all of a sudden that to say hey there's like a cultural zeitgeist association with hymns right now that I need to pay attention to like

what are they doing that is that is showing up in so many ways in my life where your brand trust elevates your cultural relevancy elevates so it isn't

a one-off thing and I think in the early years you know you hope it is um and you try to track it but it does require a level of of dollars it requires metal level of consistency. And actually, you

know, Kathy, our chief comms officer, told me this when I when we were interviewing, which I completely believe. She's like, "The the thing

believe. She's like, "The the thing early companies struggle with when it comes to communications and their brand is they get they get bored of saying the same thing and then they move on to the

next thing, right? Like early companies, we're excited, we're young, we're changing. So like here's our vision and

changing. So like here's our vision and here's what we stand for." And then 3 months later, like it's changed up a little bit. I want to say something

little bit. I want to say something different because I already said that thing in that last podcast. Let me say something new in this new one. And in

fact, what makes great brands great is the fact that everybody knows why they exist, why they fight, who their customer is, what the value is they deliver. And it's because they say the

deliver. And it's because they say the same damn thing in 20 different ways every single week. And so I think that's one of the key parts about brand

marketing or or comms in general. um is

consistency is uh uh making sure that that message and that narrative is not changing out of which requires an immense amount of discipline. Um and in many ways it's like a lot less fun. It's

much more of an engine. Um but but over many many years I do think it it builds.

I agree with you. I also think like everyone when you're bored of saying it, you've got to remember that there's a new team member that's never ever heard it before. That's right. And so you need

it before. That's right. And so you need to deliver it with the same passion and gusto that you did. I also think not enough for opinionated enough. If you

look at the Hims and Hers brand today, where would you say you are not opinionated enough?

I think Hims and Hers will increasingly have a stronger perspective of what great health care looks like.

And I think as we grow, you know, we are building an understanding of patients at a scale that I don't think most have, right? When you think about the fact

right? When you think about the fact that we're treating 10 20,000 patients a day, like the largest health systems in the world are not treating 10 to 15,000 patients per day. So there there's an immense amount of knowledge that's being

built around um different types of patients, their demographics, their risk factors, their biomarkers, what medicines and treatments work, why, what side effects they have, how much they

feel better. Um combination therapies

feel better. Um combination therapies that are beneficial, like there's just an immense amount of knowledge base growing where I think we're going to be able to start having stronger

perspectives of what excellence looks like in healthcare. What do we believe the gold standard in preventative care is? Like if you Harry want to be the

is? Like if you Harry want to be the absolute healthiest 29-year-old, right, and be ahead of the curve, right? What

are the 10 things you should be doing?

What are the tests you should be doing specifically for you? What are the the treatments, whether they're holistic supplements or maybe sauna, right, that you should be doing? Um, and what's that

exact regimen and get ahead of it? And

there you go. Just you're going to be a you're going to be gold standard, right?

But more and more like you're so far off gold standard, dude.

You're doing great. You're doing great.

And I think that that's the point of like to me that's such a key part of the Hims and Hers brand is like everybody feels that way. Everyone feels so far away from optimal. And it's really

[ __ ] hard to take the first step to have that confidence to to like make a change. And so most people that come to

change. And so most people that come to him and hers are first-time customers because I think we as a brand try really hard to empower you and say, "Hey, that first step is going to be easy. We're

going to make it easy." It's kind of like that old Marine or Navy Seal story of like you make your bed in the morning, right? Because when you make

morning, right? Because when you make your bed in the morning, you've completed something like a very tactical action. You've had success. There's like

action. You've had success. There's like

positive adrenaline. And then from there, you're going to do other great things throughout the day like him and hers. I want to make it so easy for

hers. I want to make it so easy for everyone to take that first step in feeling great that that it empowers a lot of people to do so. And from your p from your your question, we're going to have a stronger opinion about what great actually looks like.

So for anyone wondering, that is General McCraven's commencement speech. One of

the greatest speeches I think recorded on the internet. I've listened to it probably a thousand times. It used to be the start of every single run because it's 16 minutes, which is always the most painful of any run, the first 16.

So amazing. aligned. I've got an out there idea for you. You said there you want to make it easier. Why do you not have him preventative assessments in

every city and say, "Hey, we'll tell you what's wrong with you." Like a prenovo does or like any other prevent and you can choose to buy with us or not. But by

doing that, you're building up the world's largest set of healthcare data for free. And you give it for free and

for free. And you give it for free and the treatment's what they pay for. It's

like you're a loss leader. Also, what a goodwill engine. I would go to the

goodwill engine. I would go to the dinner party, even if I didn't talk about even if I didn't buy products.

I'll go to all my friends and be like, "You'll never guess. I found this out about myself when I went to HIMS." Yeah.

Oh, what's him?

I think we are we are um very close to that being a reality. Um in the last Are you a do you have the elasticity and budget to do that? I don't mean that really.

It requires two tangible things. So last

year we acquired uh your bio health which is one of the the few athome blood collection devices. I have it right here

collection devices. I have it right here on my desk. Um and this device costs just a couple bucks to manufacture and you can click it on your arm and it's got 30 micro needles in inside of it.

Each of the micro needles smaller than an eyelash. So if you feel nothing, you

an eyelash. So if you feel nothing, you click a button, you feel nothing and then a small tube of blood gets extracted from your arm in about a minute or two. You can then peel that

off and you can mail it to New Jersey which is where we have a lab processing facility and we'll have a couple others in the next year and two um and run a

full panel you know 50 biomarkers and it will cost us like almost nothing. Now

today if you go to to Quest or Lab Corp and try to get that panel uh cash pay maybe cost you a,000 bucks or 2,000 bucks. if you you know uh go online and

bucks. if you you know uh go online and go to different competitors maybe it costs like 300 or 500 bucks for that panel. Um uh and and my my goal my

panel. Um uh and and my my goal my vision is like very quickly I want to give that away as a part of the HMS and hers membership for free. Um because if you can get a sense of those metrics and

and I'm not talking about just like baseline metrics like you know your cholesterol and things I'm actually talking about things that are even more sophisticated like genetic

predisposition risks which you know very few people get access to um or or cancer risks or polygenic risk stores. if you

have a really accelerated risk of colon cancer, there's things you should be doing that are different. Um, so to me, that is the vision, a preventative front door that is near cost or free. And that

requires us to spend hundreds of millions of dollars, which we're doing right now to totally verticalize this stuff and actually own the devices, the lab processing, and that fulfillment.

Um, but then a platform that says, "Here's everything we know. Here's what

we can help you with, right?" and and give guidance and again make that next step really really easy.

I thought it was really interesting.

Goal Rajaram who's amazing. I don't know if you know this but he basically said his biggest lesson from Square where he was for many years was that when you're running a multi-product company not

every product line has to be profitable.

That's so right. Yeah. And I I think for us um I I think that entry point and that data collection it serves two purposes. one, most people just don't

purposes. one, most people just don't even have access to this stuff. So, they

don't even know if they're like doing well. You know, I'll give you an

well. You know, I'll give you an example. One of my best friends, um, you

example. One of my best friends, um, you know, he's mid30s. He's trying to live healthy. He was telling me the other day

healthy. He was telling me the other day how he's running a lot and he he looked at his cholesterol numbers and they were they were like kind of out of whack. So,

he's like now starting to eat more salmon and going for a run. I'm like,

"Oh, that's great. Awesome." And then I told him, "Hey, have you done testing for this specific genetic risk factor for heart disease? It's it's called lipoprotein little a." Uh he's like, "No, I've never done that test." So he

ran he and did that test and he came back and he's like, "My number is like 450." I was like, "Well, that's a

450." I was like, "Well, that's a problem because that number should be like under 70." And if it's 450, it means there's a pretty good chance you're going to have a heart attack at like 50 or 60. And he looked at me. I'm

like, "Do you have has anyone ever had a heart attack in your family?" He's like, "Well, my my dad died when he was 60 and my dad and my grandfather died at 55.

Both of heart attacks." Like to me that moment was why all of this matters because he went to his doctor. He went

to a cardiologist because he was trying to do well. They gave him a set of panel and blood tests and his numbers were a little bit off. So he started to go for runs. Great first step. What they didn't

runs. Great first step. What they didn't test was a genetic predisposition marker that we now know is so much more important. And if you have that high

important. And if you have that high genetic predisposition number, your cholesterol numbers need to be like amazing, not good. They have to be incredible or you're going to have a heart attack. there are so many

heart attack. there are so many therapies he should be starting now because he now has access to that number. That's the kind of stuff I want

number. That's the kind of stuff I want to give away for free. Like that that level of information helps people actually like get preventative, not reactive and and put it on a care spectrum where if somebody wants to be

aggressive, they can. If somebody wants to be conservative, they can. But I want to give people information and then I want to give them choice and assortment and a doctor to help navigate that um for a cost that that that isn't

overwhelming. I'm sorry to be and this

overwhelming. I'm sorry to be and this may be a total tangent but is it not like totally [ __ ] that doctors get incentivized by drug companies on yeah the whole thing is totally [ __ ]

right if you look at the existing system in the US almost nothing has to do with patient outcomes or patient happiness right so many people make money

everybody makes money but none of them make money in any way that's actually reflective of success of the customer or patient um and I think that's where our model is most powerful Like we only make

money at Hims and Hers if you are happier and healthier. Period. Because

you pay us. You pay us to be healthier.

If you don't feel healthier, if you don't feel happier, you stop paying us.

And so our incentive is only aligned with with you. And we then fight behind the scenes, the drug companies. We fight

the diagnostic companies. We fight

everybody. And we work with them, but we apply pressure to them to get the best stuff at the best price to bring it to you. But ultimately, we only succeed if

you. But ultimately, we only succeed if you succeed. In a way though, we're like

you succeed. In a way though, we're like we we don't your your your business is like my business, which is like we don't want you to be too successful where you don't need us.

A world where businesses don't need venture capital is a problem for me.

That's not a good thing. A world where humans don't need any medication, Andrew, I hate to say it, is not a good business for you.

Well, for us, it's not necessarily about medication right?

You will always need somebody to help quarterback your wealth and your health, right? Like as you grow, as you age,

right? Like as you grow, as you age, you're always going to want to have somebody who's an expert partner that's available to you 24/7 that you trust that can help you navigate how you feel

in life. And and this changes, right?

in life. And and this changes, right?

Like at different milestones, like you might not be there yet, but in the 10 years from now though, things will be popping up all the time. and and that that trusted partner becomes so

valuable. Um, and it could be super

valuable. Um, and it could be super cute, it could be something small, but but I don't think that changes. And so

that relationship that can last decades with him and hers is what matters, right? Like me just getting you a

right? Like me just getting you a specific treatment today and making the most money I can from you today, that actually isn't what matters to me long term, right? I'm 37. I've got like a

term, right? I'm 37. I've got like a multi-deade perspective on how big this business can be. in order for it to reach that that maximum value, you have to build a brand that people trust to

have with you for a very long time. And

that means often saying, "Hey, right now this treatment might not be for you, you know, um but we're here for you when something else pops up and here's more information and here's more diagnostics and here's maybe a wearable device and

here's some other habits and food and nutritional support um to help you along the way."

the way." What is your least profitable product that is most important? Do you remember we said about multi-product companies don't have to Yeah.

Right. Right now it's the lab testing offering. We offer it essentially uh at

offering. We offer it essentially uh at cost. We haven't verticalized any of

cost. We haven't verticalized any of this infrastructure. So it costs us you

this infrastructure. So it costs us you know you know pretty much just as much money as we we sell it for. Um and again it's because I believe the loss leader value to the patient is incredibly

important. And that margin will continue

important. And that margin will continue to be terrible because what we're going to do is continue to reduce the cost as we verticalize it. and then actually reduce the cost to the consumer. Um so

that that will always be I think um a platform benefit from my standpoint where we try to make nothing on um but give patients information and access and and that ultimately can be really

transformative for them.

What do you think not enough people know about hymns that they should know?

I think a lot of people um are still trying to understand why we are fighting so hard, right? People see us in the headlines all the time, right? Um,

recently seeing us in the headlines for for GLP1s and, you know, with drug company conversations. Um, and so

company conversations. Um, and so why do we see like negative connotations with you and not Row? It seems like the world likes to dunk on you more than Row.

Yeah. I I think when it comes to hymns as a disruptor, we are actually disrupting. I think we

are pushing buttons that structurally change how people get access to care in this country. If you look in the last 18

this country. If you look in the last 18 months, like we were talking about, um the most important medicines of the century got cut by 80%. Not only did they get cut in cost, but now they're

available through consumer channels at prices everyone can afford. Um I think we played a part of that intentionally, right? We applied massive pressure,

right? We applied massive pressure, regulatory pressure, consumer pressure.

We leveraged, you know, hundreds of thousands of patients to to raise their voices to say, "Hey, these medicines could save our lives. Like, let's

actually get them to us in ways we can afford." And coverage is now expanding

afford." And coverage is now expanding dramatically and the prices are tanking.

And so, I think our willingness to be at the at the forefront of disruption and push on behalf of consumers, I think causes friction, right? Um, and I think

we're comfortable with that friction. I

think people understand why we're doing it is is super important because, you know, we like to push where it's important to customers and I think ultimately that is going to benefit how the ecosystem works

and row isn't innovating in that way.

Hence, they don't get the criticism. I

don't I don't know if I you know I won't talk specifically about any other brand because I'm not sure their strategy but but I would say um you know in order to

actually disrupt the system you have to break part of the system and and I think our strategy is is is doing that. Uh

what system would you what part of the system would you most like to break that you haven't broken yet?

I think we are in the middle right now of breaking how uh healthcare is distributed entirely. So instead of

distributed entirely. So instead of going through the PBMs and then through insurance and then through reimbursements, all of that complexity that nobody understands in the US, I

don't think any of it makes sense. I

think all of it or as much of it as possible will go through consumer channels like him and hers where you can pick up your phone, have on demand

access, have total price transparency, have complete choice of which doctor, which specialists, which treatment, complete information access, and then and then control. The system in the US

is entirely paternalistic, right? you

get treated with whatever they they they want to to give you and and the incentives and reimbursements and costs are so convoluted that it's it's wildly

overwhelming. And so when I think of

overwhelming. And so when I think of every other industry we love food delivery, you know, financial services, banking, uh retail, everything is

simple. It's on demand from your mobile

simple. It's on demand from your mobile device. Price transparency, customer

device. Price transparency, customer choice. Yet the one thing that is the

choice. Yet the one thing that is the most important part of our life doesn't have any of those elements and it's the biggest industry in the US. It's where

we spend the most money too. And so I think that's entirely going to change.

And so I don't think HIMS is a DTOC company. I think HIMS is disrupting how

company. I think HIMS is disrupting how healthcare is delivered in in a consumer focused fashion. And and I think we're

focused fashion. And and I think we're in the midst of that change. I think

people are are are just coming around to it and you're starting to see it with with the GLP1s as a prime example. But I

think in the next 5 years it's going to accelerate dramatically.

The lock in and power of Epic is just mind-boggling.

Does that progress or prevent innovation in the healthcare industry?

I don't think it's relevant. Actually,

when you look at the patients coming to Hims and Nurses today, the patients starting their healthcare journey, the majority of them do not have legacy data

and systems within old EMR platforms, right? They they moved to a new city,

right? They they moved to a new city, they moved to New York, and they're 22 and they're like, I don't have a doctor yet. I'm feeling a little sad. What do I

yet. I'm feeling a little sad. What do I do? Right? And they're their first time

do? Right? And they're their first time entry into the health care system is him and hers. And so the the wave of of

and hers. And so the the wave of of health care for the future, for the next 20 years, for the 50 years after that, I is going to be a po patient population

that's starting today. Um, and that's why I think uh, you know, you have to you have to build a relationship early.

You have to have an assortment of care that starts young for people so that you can give them uh, an example of what great looks like and then build with them over many, many years.

Final one and then I promise we'll do a quick fine. I know I've jumped around

quick fine. I know I've jumped around the whole thing, but that's why I love what I do these days. Um, like I think your food industry is at the root of all your healthcare problems. What you guys

do to your food is not [ __ ] natural.

Like apples are not meant to be that large. You know, salmon is not meant to

large. You know, salmon is not meant to be that cut. Do you agree that food is at the root of a lot of your healthcare problems? And

problems? And 100%. 100%. I think the team

100%. 100%. I think the team and how do how genuinely, dude, how do you eat healthfully and sustainably in New York today when it's all completely artificial?

Yeah, it's really challenging. I I I I think the current administration is doing an amazing job on that issue. I

really do. Right. Like the the push to eat real food, the push to normalize the fact that all of the ingredients on these labels is garbage. It's chemicals.

uh the the push to educate people to actually see what is good for you and look at those labels and and require food companies to disclose it and to force changes on high processed foods or

or uh corn syrup use. Like it's poison.

Uh you know, my wife is my wife is French and so when when we're visiting her family overseas, I look at the labels. It's crazy. I mean, you know,

labels. It's crazy. I mean, you know, when you look at a French fried bag of in a French grocery store, it's potatoes and it's olive oil and that's it. you

know, you you go to Safeway here in the US and you look at it and it's 40 different things. So, I think there's a

different things. So, I think there's a huge problem with the food industry. I

think the the government applying pressure and regulation there is a wonderful idea for people because undoubtedly that's a massive part of of the obesity epidemic in the country and also probably the mental health epidemic

and and many many other things.

Yeah, I'm totally with you. I feel and actually on this one I feel really sorry for I don't know how it says about being classist, wealthist, whatever, but I feel really sorry if you don't have money because I think it's really hard

then.

Oh yeah, it's so difficult. I mean I' we've got three little boys and I you know we try to you know feed them well and and so we'll buy like a carton of organic blueberries, right? And that

carton is expensive. Organic blueberries

in San Francisco it might be like seven bucks. Um, and I'll I'll open it and

bucks. Um, and I'll I'll open it and I'll put it in front of the boys for breakfast and they'll grab handfuls and and it'll be done in 15 seconds. The

idea that, you know, healthy food costs this much and is consumed that easily is a real challenge uh right now. And so,

anything people can be doing to eat locally, to have local farms, to to make sustainability in their communities easier and better, I think is is is all positive.

Dude, I want to do a quick firearm with you. Okay. So I'm going to say a short

you. Okay. So I'm going to say a short statement. You give me your immediate

statement. You give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?

thoughts. Does that sound okay?

Sounds good.

What decision have you made in the last two years that you would reverse today?

I think I was too slow to force the company to invest in completely uh disrupting their team processes with AI.

Which process was disrupted most? I

think customer care, provider quality, all patient interactions.

I think we we were a year or two uh too slow on on totally changing the model of how patients interact with the platform.

CAC goes up or retention goes down.

Which scares you more?

Retention going down. There are always ways to optimize efficiency on acquisition. There are always new

acquisition. There are always new channels, new brand campaigns, new new growth avenues. But if you don't have a

growth avenues. But if you don't have a sticky customer and for some reason they're becoming less sticky, your product market fit, your patient happiness, your customer happiness is going in the wrong direction.

CAC only ever goes one way. Agree or

disagree?

Disagree.

Why?

At scale, I think uh with scale, with assortment, with brand value, uh new channels become unlocked, new efficiency grows.

uh leverage accelerates with assortment.

Um I think uh it often only goes one way but I don't think always.

Other than Ferrari, what do you not sponsor that you would most like to World Cup?

Like the event itself or like like the FIFA World Cup brought to you by him. Mhm. Yep.

Well, you got the US one coming, dude.

It's not too late to spend some dollars.

Great, dude. I I love that. Um, what advice

dude. I I love that. Um, what advice would you give to yourself starting hymns again? You mentioned Jack and

hymns again? You mentioned Jack and Atomic and starting it as part of Atomic. What do you tell yourself going

Atomic. What do you tell yourself going back to the very start? I would tell myself to trust my instincts as we continue to build and get bigger and bigger. Continue to trust my instincts

bigger. Continue to trust my instincts and also remember that it's going to be a long journey and the ups and downs are going to come and go. Um, but that the persistence is going to be most

important.

Now, I think, you know, we do meaningful jobs and you do a hugely meaningful job, but I think the most meaningful job that you probably do, which you'll agree with, is being a father. Um,

what's your final one? What's your

biggest advice on being a great father now having three boys?

You know, there's a there's a um something I watched once where they asked a whole bunch of little kids um what their absolute perfect afternoon

was. And these are like two, three,

was. And these are like two, three, four, 5 year olds. And the perfect afternoon was all these kids answered the same way, just playing with their mom and dad. Just like sitting with

blocks and playing with their mom and dad or drawing with their mom and dad or or something with their mom and dad. And

I don't think, you know, when you're exhausted and you're a parent and you're trying to do everything and pulled so many different ways, you realize that actually all the kids want to do is just have you present and and and truly

present. And so my greatest advice I

present. And so my greatest advice I think would be to to try really really hard to just play with them. Like

actually play like get down on your on your knees on your butt in whatever they're doing. Uh and just ask what

they're doing. Uh and just ask what they're doing and ask if you can do it with them. Um because they'll like they

with them. Um because they'll like they light up. Uh because in parenting like

light up. Uh because in parenting like it's it's hard to actually h make time for that. But I found that that that's

for that. But I found that that that's that's really the most important and valuable stuff.

Dude, I I so appreciate you. I so

appreciate the friendship. I so

appreciate you putting up with my incredibly wayward com. I mean, real breath to the conversation. You got to give me credit. Um, but you've been fantastic.

Appreciate you having me, buddy. Good to

see you again.