How I built a 1M+ subscriber newsletter and top 10 tech podcast | Lenny Rachitsky

I just sat down on this rock on a substance of some sort. This was as I was starting the newsletter and this phrase of I have wisdom to share coming through me over and over and over and I was just watching this crazy

visualization of some kind of sitting Buddha thing and that was for 3 hours.

It gave me the confidence that like okay maybe I do have things to share.

>> What do you want to say to our mothers right now? Do you want to take this

right now? Do you want to take this back?

>> My mom.

>> Do you want to take that back? You

started your newsletter 2019 and it now has over a million subscribers.

>> 1.2 million.

>> 1.2.

>> Something that we've talked about a few times is the best stuff comes from actual experience.

>> People always say if you want to write, read.

>> The source of the best advice is from practitioners doing the thing for real.

At this point, most of my posts are guest posts where somebody's sharing the best thing they've learned in their career.

>> What do you think you'd be doing right now if you hadn't started that newsletter?

>> On the struggle bus of startup life, probably. And then probably after that

probably. And then probably after that failed, I would have joined some company as a PM.

>> Do you still like it?

>> I can't imagine doing something more fulfilling and interesting. But the

visual I always have is the Indiana Jones Boulder is chasing me constantly.

It's like this treadmill that you're on.

>> Tell me about a time you've been really stressed in your business.

>> Here's something I've never shared.

Today, my guest is my brilliant, incredible wife, Michelle Rial, who turns the table and interviews me. I've

had so many people over the years want me to be interviewed on this podcast, and what could be more fun than doing this with my wife. I share things during this conversation that I've never shared anywhere else, including some of the

hardest moments from this journey. I get

a lot more personal than I've ever been on this podcast. Also, the day this podcast comes out just happens to be my wife's birthday. And she is also about

wife's birthday. And she is also about to publish her third book, a children's book called Charts for Babies, which we chat briefly about. Definitely pre-order

it. This was so fun and so special. I

hope you love it. Let's get into it.

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That's me.

Michelle Rial, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast.

being here. Welcome to the podcast.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> So, what are we doing here? Uh, people

constantly ask me to get interviewed myself. People are like, why don't you

myself. People are like, why don't you sit on the other side of the microphone and get interviewed and I'm just like, nah, I like interviewing. Uh, but you have a book coming out

and we thought this would be a fun opportunity to uh have you interview me.

And so, this is going to be your show.

I'm just going to be here. Ask me

whatever you want. I have no idea what you're gonna ask me and we'll see where it goes. And I'm gonna ask you some

it goes. And I'm gonna ask you some questions about your book, too. So, I'll

turn that over to you, Michelle. What do

you got? What do you got for me?

>> Hello, Lenny.

>> Aka babe.

Yeah. Um, yeah. So, you're you started your newsletter 2019 and it now has over a million subscribers.

>> 1.2 million.

>> 1.2. too.

>> Uh, and your podcast is uh you very frequently one of the top 10. Is that

right?

>> Yep. It's like right around Yeah, it's top 10 tech podcast.

>> Yeah.

>> Yes. Hell yeah.

>> I love it. When I met you, I think you were something called a product engineer.

>> I was a software engineer. Let's see.

When you met me. No, I think I was a I think I was still a software engineer.

Yeah.

>> I think you went from software engineer to product engineer to product manager.

>> Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

>> I'm wondering what do you what do you think you'd be doing right now if you hadn't started that newsletter?

>> If I like stayed in my job.

>> Yeah. If you hadn't and then that I mean I'll get to another question about what do you think is the one moment that led you to your newsletter, but >> you can answer either one.

>> So is the question after I left Airbnb what would I be doing or is it like if I didn't >> just if you if you hadn't or if you had gotten a different job do you think you would have gotten a different job stayed

there? So when I left my job, uh I was

there? So when I left my job, uh I was at Airbnb for seven years. Uh I was I had like plan A, start a company again.

Plan B, join a startup as like their first PM. Plan C join a big company as a

first PM. Plan C join a big company as a PM. Plan D advise companies, become a

PM. Plan D advise companies, become a consultant kind of person. Nowhere in

that plan was like do this crazy thing that I do now. I had a lot of startup ideas. As I was exploring the startup

ideas. As I was exploring the startup ideas, as you remember, I was just like tinkering and prototyping and building stuff. And then on the side, I was

stuff. And then on the side, I was writing things that I learned and things I wanted to share. And you were just like, why are you writing? Why do you there's you can't make money on the internet

writing. You should be doing this thing

writing. You should be doing this thing that you're good at. Startups and

building and tech and stuff like that.

And I'm just like, I don't know. It

seems like there's a pull here, so I'm just going to keep doing this.

>> I don't know if I said things that you're good at. I just said I just said like as a person there's no money putting writing on the internet I don't make any money unless people buy my book. Yeah. Plug

book. Yeah. Plug

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. So I guess to answer your question I'd probably find another company to start and I probably would have failed considering most startups fail. So I'd

probably be in this like oh no is this thing a thing I should be doing? I'd be

in a on the struggle bus of startup life probably. And then probably after that

probably. And then probably after that failed I would have joined some company I guess as a PM. So then I guess going back to that question of what what do you think do you think there's a moment or a collection of moments that led you

to go full in on the newsletter or even start the newsletter, start the medium post that led to the newsletter?

>> Yeah, it was definitely a collection of moments. It's kind of this like little

moments. It's kind of this like little journey that I just followed pull that was starting to work and I'm just like, huh, maybe there's something here. So a

few moments along that journey. One was

the first thing I wrote on the this is like the first thing I wrote on the internet did very well is this post on what I learned at Airbnb like Medium featured. It went all over the place.

featured. It went all over the place.

Branches shared it with the whole company. So proud of what I shared. So

company. So proud of what I shared. So

that was a nice moment of like maybe I have something to share. And then I wrote a few more things on Medium at this point and there was more of just like this is working. People seem to like it.

Then I had a conversation with this with a friend Lee Jacobs who's a VC now because I was telling him I don't know what I'm I don't know why I'm doing this. Why am I writing this is like not

this. Why am I writing this is like not a future I should be focusing on the startup and he's just like you seem to be enjoying it. People seem to be liking it which is very rare that ven diagram

of things just like how often do you enjoy something and people value it and maybe there's a way to make money in in the future. So his advice is just maybe

the future. So his advice is just maybe pursue that and double down on that and maybe it'll go somewhere. So that was a moment. Another maybe big moment was

moment. Another maybe big moment was nine months of doing the newsletter. So

I decided I'm going to move to Substack.

I'm gonna write every week I tweeted I'm going to experiment with a newsletter, weekly newsletter, see how it goes. Uh

and so I did that every week for nine months. And I just remember this moment

months. And I just remember this moment nine months in where I was like, huh, I've been doing this every week for 9 months, which means I could probably do this for nine more months. There's this

uh Lindy effect. I don't know if you know this, but there's this concept of a thing something being lindy, which is uh as long as it's been going for, it will most likely last at least that long in

the future. So, I thought that okay, I

the future. So, I thought that okay, I could do this for at least probably another year. I have all these ideas and

another year. I have all these ideas and things I want to write about. So, let me just keep doing this. So, that's when I decided to add the payw wall and start charging and to see if I could make money doing this thing. Also in parallel

as you know uh I was doing this based on the assumption that my Airbnb stock was going to be worth something and I could take this time to explore and then co

hit and Airbnb might have was like over ripb all over Twitter and I was like huh maybe I need to get a job for real and so I'm like I got to make money on this

thing. Let me try. So that's when I

thing. Let me try. So that's when I started the payw wall. And so and and it worked. That's like the other moment I

worked. That's like the other moment I think I launched the payw wall and it worked. You know, I made meaningful

worked. You know, I made meaningful dollars like a month in.

>> So, speaking of ven diagram, you said I'm good at it and I and I people like it >> and people like it.

>> Oh, and I like doing it. You like doing it.

>> That's a really good cuz I didn't mention that.

>> Okay.

>> That's so that's so true that it's right. Yeah.

right. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I think eeky guy is like five things, right? It's like a whole bunch

things, right? It's like a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah. But that's a trigger a

of stuff. Yeah. But that's a trigger a point cuz it was just like people like it and I'm good at it, >> but without that I actually enjoy it.

>> I think you said I and I like doing it.

>> Okay, cool. Do you still like it?

>> I do in almost every way. Like I can't imagine doing something more fulfilling and interesting, which is basically um my job is to write about things that are

interesting and share people's interesting insights and experiences and interview people and extract wisdom.

It's just like so interesting. It's my

own thing which makes it extra interesting. But I think a lot about uh

interesting. But I think a lot about uh this artist Finch wrote this blog post, how to become an artist. And at the top of his post, he's just like you pro, you

should not become a professional artist most likely because yeah, because once it's a thing you have to do, it changes it. You have, you know, you have to do

it. You have, you know, you have to do it. So now I'm on this like this is the

it. So now I'm on this like this is the downside, but I just want to preface with saying this is incredible and I can't imagine doing anything else that I enjoy more. But uh having to write a

enjoy more. But uh having to write a post or put out a post every single week and a podcast episode every week, you know, it's like this treadmill that you're on. So you have to kind of get

you're on. So you have to kind of get used to that. That part is no fun. But

again, I can't think of anything better that I could be doing. And and it kind of goes up and down sometimes. Like I

love it. I'm so happy I get to write a thing every single week. And then some weeks I'm like, it'd be cool though to do it this week. But that's part of this life, you know, because otherwise you can't do this. You can't you can't survive in this way if you're not doing

something consistently and making it awesome every week. So it's a part of it. So the visual I always have is the

it. So the visual I always have is the Indiana Jones uh boulder is chasing me constantly because you put out something like I have a post come out. What's today?

We're recording on Wednesday. I had a post come out yesterday and then I'm it's like what's next week? All right,

that's done. all that work you put into it over was coming out next week and it's like every week. So the big question I I don't have an answer to is where this all goes long term because

someday whether it's a a 70 years old or 100 years old or 60 years old I don't know like maybe I won't be able to do this every single week. So I think about where does this all go? I don't think

there's a answer to like substack writer podcast life long term like what do you do >> like according to the Lindy right >> there you go >> so 2019 now it's seven more years >> seven years since the news >> seven years

>> so I can yeah good luck >> seven more years you don't run out of ideas >> okay so we got seven years I can do that >> yeah okay so speaking of the boulder you don't seem like a stressed out person

and I don't see you as a stressed out person only like potty training sleep the toddler or baby sleep stuff.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't see you as a stressed out person. Uh do you think there's anything

person. Uh do you think there's anything behind that? Do you think that's just

behind that? Do you think that's just you >> and or are you just stressed and doesn't you don't show it?

>> I think there's an element of I am more stressed than I come across as and even recognize with myself. Like I get these headaches sometimes. I'm like what is

headaches sometimes. I'm like what is going on there? Is that stress or is that something else? So, I think there's a bit of I'm probably more stressed than it looks like and that I even feel, but I think I'm probably less stressed than

the average person. I think part of it is genetics. And then part of it is I I

is genetics. And then part of it is I I work on it. Like I just I've learned to adjust the way I think to reduce stress and to not take things seriously. But I

think I think honestly it's probably like 70% genetics. I'm just like, it'll be all right. It'll be all right. As you

know, something we argue about, it'll be all right. That's some like raw chicken.

all right. That's some like raw chicken.

That'll be fine.

>> That's fine.

>> Uh so, okay. Do you have any tools or any kind of like I know you've done medit different types of meditation.

We've done breathing together. What do

you have a favorite? Do you

>> Oh, to like calm down and de-stress.

>> And you did you did a 10day silent meditation right before you >> ended up writing the post.

>> That's true. That was a big wisdom. Oh,

here's something I've never shared.

Okay. You asked about going back to the moments that led me to this life. So, I

went on a a bachelor party trip with some friends. This isn't where you think

some friends. This isn't where you think it's going.

>> I hope not.

>> So, it was a trip to Joshua Tree with a friend and uh there was psychedelics involved on this trip. Uh and I just remember so we went to Joshua Tree. I

just sat down on this rock on a substance of some sort. Uh, and and this was as I was starting the newsletter and I just remember sitting there for

probably 3 hours in this one spot and I was just having this deep breathing happening and this like phrase of I have wisdom to share

coming through me over and over and over. And I was just watching this crazy

over. And I was just watching this crazy visualization of some kind of sitting Buddha thing. And it's just like I have

Buddha thing. And it's just like I have wisdom to share. And that was for three hours.

>> That made you write the post.

>> That made me feel like I can do this.

Like it gave me the confidence that like, okay, maybe I do have things to share. Yeah. That was a really powerful

share. Yeah. That was a really powerful moment just to give give me confidence that there's something inside me that's like, oh yeah, maybe I I could do this thing. So that was a big moment.

thing. So that was a big moment.

>> What do you want to say? What do you want to say to our mothers right now? Do

you want to take this back?

>> My mom want to take that back?

>> No. No. Do you want to crop it out?

>> This is um Okay, Mom. I did I did I did I did some stuff.

>> It's okay.

>> We Okay, so >> it's time to time to share.

>> And then Yeah. You've done medit You did 10day meditation. You did a specific

10day meditation. You did a specific type of meditation that that seemed to me to to affect you in like physical ways.

>> Yeah.

>> And then you told me once about a happiness course you took.

>> Yeah. That was actually pretty transformative. I took this online

transformative. I took this online course at University of Pennsylvania about uh the psychology of happiness and it was basically all the science of what makes you happier and how to be happier

and that really had a big impact on me because it showed you you can increase your baseline level of happiness by doing a few things and one of the things is just like thinking more positively like thinking more optimistically.

There's also like gratitude stuff that I didn't find as useful, but there's just something about you can everyone's got this baseline. That was actually a big

this baseline. That was actually a big learning from that course is everyone's just kind of this baseline level of happiness and you could be like at 100, you could be at zero probably more most people in between somewhere and like

something amazing happens, you go way way up in happiness and then you come back to that baseline. Something

terrible happens, you go back to that baseline and the main thing you can do is work on improving that baseline so that you come back to a higher place. So

that's what a lot of the work is and what you learn in that class. And one of the things is just be optimistic. Just

kind of have a positive outlook and don't let your mind kind of spiral into these like it's going to be terrible. So

it was a lot of just like think more positively. And I feel like my baseline

positively. And I feel like my baseline of level of happiness has gone up and I think that yeah >> I think you told me exercise too like used to run.

>> Yes, that was a really good insight. So

exercise they the science this was like I don't know 15 years ago. I'm guessing

there's new research. But the

interesting thing there is uh exercise doesn't make you happier, but it brings you out of the negative. So you're

negative one without exercise and exercise brings you to zero so that you're not depressed. Basically,

>> speaking of stress.

>> Okay, then I have a question for you.

>> Oh, okay. Let's do this. Let's do this.

Uh because I know on your podcast you have a lightning round.

>> Okay.

>> Um we're going to do a thunder round.

>> Is that extra fast or what does that mean?

>> No, it's sound. your one thing that I think stresses you out the most at times is uh your misophonia which is you want to explain what it is?

>> Yeah, it's like it's funny to talk about it but it's this it's like this disorder. It's like

a real thing in the brain where I get bothered by certain sounds and so I get very bothered by people eating with >> Okay. Thunder round is going to be top

>> Okay. Thunder round is going to be top five worst sounds or you can rank these sounds.

>> Okay. Okay. You're going to give me the five >> like like best best sound to worst sound.

>> Okay.

>> Right. So like 10 is worst.

>> Okay. What are

>> 10 is best? I don't know.

>> What are the best sounds?

>> Okay. What's Okay. Okay. Let's say

chewing. Chewing one to 10.

>> Chewing like with mouth open. Just like

with the worst. Yeah,

>> I hate it. Uh 10 is the worst.

>> 10 is the worst.

>> It's, you know, it's probably it's in Yeah, it's 10. N or 10 >> or like like nails on a chalkboard.

What's that?

>> That's like less bad for me, >> right? What's the number?

>> right? What's the number?

>> Like if it's someone's sitting right next to me just like chomping away.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's so awkward to ask anyone to stop. I hate doing that. It's like so

stop. I hate doing that. It's like so they're like, "Shut up."

>> Sweet. You're sweet.

>> But it's just like what?

>> Yeah.

>> I'm just sitting here eating. Leave me

alone.

>> Yeah. That's how I feel whenever I do by accident near you.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh okay. So, nails on a chalkboard.

What's >> That's like six. I don't know. Five.

>> What about um >> I don't mind this.

>> What about like a baby crying or your What's a baby crying versus your baby crying?

>> Baby crying like uh So, 10 is the worst.

>> Yeah.

>> So, like how loud? Like very loud.

>> Like in in newborn phase like like didn't know what to do like >> Oh, yeah. That was really like when when Jude was born.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, yeah. That's pretty hard.

Okay. Uh like eight.

>> Okay. Okay. What about like um when Jude says papa?

>> Yeah. One one is the best. Yeah. And

>> is there any other sound you >> drew laughing?

>> Okay.

>> Okay.

>> What about like bad another bad sound?

>> I don't know.

>> Okay. You can you can ask me now if you want.

>> Okay.

>> If you're getting >> No, no, no. I like there's not that many bad sounds. It's just like very specific

bad sounds. It's just like very specific bad sounds that I'm just like >> basketball, >> you know? If there's just like if I'm trying to come like be calm and there's like a bunch of commotion like Okay. Uh

like a gas, you know, blower.

>> Oh, when I'm trying to work, >> that's I think a notorious one for people.

>> What is that? A 10.

>> It's like if it's super loud and right in my face, I would say let's say a seven.

>> Okay, >> not so bad.

>> You can ask your question now if you want or I have more for you.

>> I'm going to ask you a question. So, uh

so you make these incredible genius funny charts. There's one example on

funny charts. There's one example on this book. So you have this first book

this book. So you have this first book here called Am I Overthinking This which a lot of people identify with has sold many copies. Uh so you're you create all

many copies. Uh so you're you create all these charts that try to synthesize things in life, things people experience, things people feel. A lot of

these charts get shared on socials by people that steal your charts and just pretend like they made this or just found it and they cut out your attribution.

They make pillows and mugs and there's like all these websites that sell all these charts you've made just like on swag that you get no credit for. I know

it's bothered you a lot over the years.

What makes your charts so sharable so widely? How why they go so viral so

widely? How why they go so viral so often?

>> By the way, I stopped looking at that cuz it doesn't help me. Anyway, um

>> that's good. I think that's for the best.

>> Well, I think what's the good >> I think as as your thing has gotten more successful, it's like not as important to me. I do think it's interesting that

to me. I do think it's interesting that they are often like detached from me which is I don't know why but um >> yeah people want to get credit >> when they do um and it's I I think I can

figure out some of them it's clear when I make it whether it's like I make it and then I let it sit and then some other some like moment happens or I'm like oh no this is what it needs and then I'm like now it's now I can feel

that it's really good and usually it's like it's something that makes me laugh or cackle even though I made it. It's

like like it's like oh I've already seen this in my own brain and it's still funny to me or makes me kind of like tear up then I feel like okay I think people are going to like this. I am

often wrong. And sometimes too like there are things there's something from that book that I didn't share at all but someone took a photo of it. That's how

it went viral is like just a photo of a page of a book that people loved.

>> Like it wasn't even like a digital high quality picture. It's just like some

quality picture. It's just like some random photo. Yeah.

random photo. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Which is interesting as well. And

also people's attention spans. Uh

sometimes there are just what I what I like to make is things that are really simple. Um and quick and show you

simple. Um and quick and show you something you haven't thought of before.

And I think that if it's really easy to digest, people's attention spans are short these days. And if it makes them feel something is another thing. And

it's also nice to make something that's that isn't a lot of like physical labor.

Um because some things you can make and it can take you forever to draw out because my brain does work in this like overthinking kind of way of like this but then oh this then this. People like

it when it's really simple.

>> Yeah. I I love your point about like the way you know a chart is done is intrinsically you feeling like this is hilarious. This is makes you laugh.

hilarious. This is makes you laugh.

Makes you feel something. And that's

similar to the way I think about my newsletter post. And yeah, more more the

newsletter post. And yeah, more more the newsletter than the podcast is it just to me it feels like this is like really interesting and really good. It's very

like not waiting for other people to give you, you know, approval or feedback. It's like I feel this is good.

feedback. It's like I feel this is good.

And I think that's really interesting that that's similar to the way I approach my stuff. I find that when you work on your charts, uh, you're like you think so many levels deep. They're like

they're like so they're like too clever sometimes and I have to like pull because to your point people have a short attention span sometimes they're like too clever and I have to like okay this is too many layers you have to understand and I have to like that's a

little much. You have to like simplify

little much. You have to like simplify it a little bit.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. You're my editor sometimes.

>> I try but you're like no you're like I don't care. I don't I don't care about

don't care. I don't I don't care about your feedback.

>> You you're usually probably right.

>> Yeah. Okay. Let me ask you one more question and then we could switch it around again. How do you come up with

around again. How do you come up with your ideas for your charts? You have so many such variety. You had an adult book. You had a children's now. You have

book. You had a children's now. You have

a children's book. Uh you're working on like charts for parents. You have all this other stuff going on. Where do your ideas come from, Michelle?

>> The ideas come from just living life and noticing noticing a lot of things. And

then also kind of um observing a lot. I I know that I've been really

a lot. I I know that I've been really prolific when I've been meditating. And

in meditation, you learn to kind of observe your own thinking. And if you're anxious about something like, "Oh, I'm that's funny that I was anxious about that random thing that I I've never

thought about it that way before." And

which is interesting because it is kind of like overthinking every moment, which it meditation shouldn't be teaching you to do, but that's what happens. But I

I've noticed if I focus too much on my work, I stop living life and then I stop having ideas. And it's a little

having ideas. And it's a little different with children's books, which is what I'm working on right now because it's not like relatable things a little

bit, but it's um more children's concepts, but the adult stuff has to be just through living life and >> noticing. Yeah.

>> noticing. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Noticing

>> makes me think about I think David Cedar had this story where he's just has to say yes to everything he's invited to just cuz he needs to have experiences because he just has to keep pumping out stories. So he's just like, "Sure, let's

stories. So he's just like, "Sure, let's go to Vegas right now. Let's do it." So

I feel like that's a lot of the work here is just to live real life. You

can't just kind of sit there and come up with ideas. You have to try stuff and do

with ideas. You have to try stuff and do crazy things.

>> Yeah. So the first So my first children's book, which is is out soon.

Um that one actually came out of kind of observing parenthood and early new parenthood moments. That's how I

parenthood moments. That's how I started. I started at the beginning of

started. I started at the beginning of the notebook writing kind of like trying to make charts for new parents, but we'd been reading so many kids books together

that I just had this like D like rhythm in my head of children's books. And so

what it I just turned to the back of the notebook and started writing more like children's book rhymes involving >> the back of a notebook because you're working on a different book and you're not in this notebook. Oh, this is

notebook to put my questions in for you.

Yeah. And so I started off in the front.

Um I'm not going to show you.

>> So you start in the front on a different idea.

>> I just started off in the front charts for New Parents and then I was like got, you know, a few in, you know, like a good amount in and then I was just in

the park right and then I kind of was just like, "Yeah, but I I have always wanted to do these charts for kids or for babies." And I just kept wanting to

for babies." And I just kept wanting to write that. So I started in the back and

write that. So I started in the back and then I filled it up that way.

>> I love that. This is another example of just following pull and not just doing the thing that you're doing. Just like,

huh, this is pulling me and I'm going to try it and just see where it goes. Look

at this. What a call back. Okay, back to you Michelle.

>> Back to you.

>> Back to you. Back to you. Through me.

Through you.

>> Yeah, exactly. Okay. Okay. So, um, tell me about I I do want to ask you this question inspired by a friend who like reverse nicknames you and says like

Leonard. Is your name full name Leonard?

Leonard. Is your name full name Leonard?

Where's Lenny come from?

>> And by the way, reverse nickname meaning they give you a nickname without you like asking them to.

>> Well, there's people who give you a nickname without you asking. That's Yes.

>> He gives you the full name.

>> Oh, he makes it long.

>> Yeah, it's not a thing. I'm just making it up.

>> Okay, I like that. Okay. So the question is my where my real name uh so when I moved to the US from the Ukraine which we recently chatted about on a podcast with Boris which turned out to be a big big news

>> Odessa >> people Odessa. Yeah. My parents named me Leonid was my real official first name in the US but they called me Lenny.

Everyone called me Lenny. And so when we became citizens you could change your name. And so my parents just changed it

name. And so my parents just changed it to Lenny. So it's my real name.

to Lenny. So it's my real name.

>> It's just Lenny. No. No Leonard. Oh,

Leo. Yeah.

>> Oh, yeah. Leonardo.

>> Just Lenny.

>> Just Lenny. Yeah.

>> I love it.

>> And Leonid as in it's it's a Russian name or there's also the like star constellation.

>> Oh, the Leonid. I don't know. I think

they just asked their friends just like what is my Russian name is Luna? And so

I think they just like what's the English version of that? And I'm

guessing some of their friends are just like Leonid. I don't know if they named

like Leonid. I don't know if they named it after anything specific.

>> Can I share any of your nicknames? I'm

going to assume no. What are my nicknames? Okay, go for it.

nicknames? Okay, go for it.

>> Uh, >> I don't know who they are.

>> Like, lick.

>> Okay, sure.

>> I could share that.

>> Sure.

>> Do you like it?

>> Yeah. Do

>> people call you that?

>> Well, it's like my family calls me that.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. It's like a Russ Yeah, it's like a Russian little nickname. Grunchic.

>> Yeah. And you Okay. But like strangers, can they call you that?

>> Uh, no. Don't call me that.

>> Okay. And speaking of strangers, how do you feel when people approach you and and is it weird at all? like like oh yeah like like does it remind you how big your newsletter has gotten or like do you like it?

>> Do you like certain ways of approaching it?

>> Yeah. So I guess what you're uh speaking to is when I walk around the Bay Area in particular people often recognized me which is extremely weird and started with the podcast once like interestingly

I had the newsletter for four years.

>> Yeah. You got to be like you got to be stealth.

>> Yeah. like my face was tiny and some Twitter profile, but I once I started the podcast, people just Yeah, it just it was like very weird the first time it started happening and then and now it happens quite a lot. I like it a lot.

It's very cool. I really appreciate it.

It makes me feel really nice. I'm not

bothered by it in any way. Uh it always is very flattering and people are always so nice and just I have endless nice things to say. I've never had a bad experience someone just trying to say hi

to me. So, please say hi.

to me. So, please say hi.

>> What? Okay, that's great.

>> And I often ask people what's their favorite podcast episode or your favorite newsletter because I'm just curious. I I always ask just like your

curious. I I always ask just like your founder, your product person, like what's your story? Yeah, it's really >> What about if you're in the middle of if you're like at a coffee shop and you have headphones on and somebody says like, "Hey." Or if you're like playing

like, "Hey." Or if you're like playing with your kid, what do you think?

>> I think you're projecting, right, >> about what you wouldn't want.

>> Girl, yeah, >> people don't do that. I think people have been generally very conscious. You

know, there could be a moment of just like we're getting somewhere and I can't talk for too long and I don't want to be rude >> or you're like in a focus. Yeah. But but

then >> Yeah, >> it hasn't been a problem yet. Uh almost

like 99% of people have been very considerate.

>> Yeah.

>> And I don't want people to feel like they can't just talk to me and say, >> "Yeah, that's cool."

>> Yeah. They're always so cool.

>> I like that. Yeah.

>> Is there any like instance of delightful? like maybe the first time

delightful? like maybe the first time this happened.

Uh we live in Marin and I was walking through Sanelmo with you as you remember and there's this guy in a little red car driving by with his son. He's driving by

and we're on the sidewalk and then he just yells, "Lenny, I love your podcast.

God," and this wasn't even in San Francisco. It was in San and Selmo and

Francisco. It was in San and Selmo and it was uh shocked. And then he just kept he like held up traffic just to say hello. I'm like, "Oh my god."

hello. I'm like, "Oh my god."

>> Yeah, I wouldn't do that.

>> Yeah, probably wouldn't do that. And

then I met him later. He runs a hamburger club in Marin. He's very cool.

Cuz I saw him again at another coffee shop. So that was quite delightful.

shop. So that was quite delightful.

>> I love that. Uh okay, you just said something. Okay, people coming up to

something. Okay, people coming up to you. Um Okay, you're going to have to

you. Um Okay, you're going to have to cut this. See, no, we're not going to

cut this. See, no, we're not going to cut it because this is what I go through, too, as a podcast interviewer.

>> I thought of something I lost there.

>> This is what I'm constantly dealing with. That is a challenge of the

with. That is a challenge of the interviewer.

>> And I think it's fun for people to see cuz you're like, "Okay, I have to think about what's I'm going to say next." And

then you're like, they're stop and then you're like, "Oh [ __ ] what was it going to be?" So that's why on when I do the

to be?" So that's why on when I do the podcast, I'm secretly writing notes to myself constantly.

>> So, okay, >> check your notes.

>> Yeah. Well, okay. I closed my Okay, I should have written it down. Let's talk

about like thinking back to what what kind of um hints that you would start this newsletter or like things that you worked on when you were younger that are

like a little or like a mildly adjacent or like you know cuz you had some like some websites you had atheist spot you had like you had some tutorials >> tutorials that's one

>> so the question is like what are the things I did earlier that helped me with the work you or yeah just cuz just looking back like anything that that is kind of like makes it obvious that you would have started this newsletter or like a little more

>> I don't think there's anything that would have pointed me or anybody to this being the thing that I do now. It's

completely unexpected personally and I don't think anyone saw coming. Uh I had never written anything online before I started writing. I was always not like

started writing. I was always not like hey look at me I've got all the answers and I have all this wisdom to share. I

was always like I'm an introvert. I'd

like to kind of stay behind the scenes.

So, it was a it's a very unexpected path for me. And part of the reason I think I

for me. And part of the reason I think I was able to do it is uh the newsletter started during co so I could just sit there and type and put stuff out online.

I didn't have to go anywhere and like tell everyone. I could stay like in my

tell everyone. I could stay like in my little hole. But just to uh follow

little hole. But just to uh follow through on these things you pointed out that I did earlier cuz uh I don't think I've ever talked about these things. I

had all these different side projects before uh like through college I guess.

Yeah. through college. I was like a very uh big atheist and I'm still an atheist, Jewish atheist, which is many Jews, but I was like very into it before and now I'm like, "Okay, I don't care. Whatever.

Believe what you want to believe." Uh,

so I used to run a website called the atheistpot.com, which was Reddit for atheistnews, which is not a, you know, Reddit is that it's fine. I don't, you don't need it.

it's fine. I don't, you don't need it.

But I went to like there's like conventions. We went to atheist

conventions. We went to atheist conventions.

Uh, so I did that and the funny thing is that was the during AdWords when Google Adwords was a way to monetize your site and so all the ads on the site because

most of the articles were about religion were all these religious dating sites.

So it's like Christian Mingle and like all these funny dating sites that didn't make sense for the audience. So I always thought that was funny. And then uh I worked with a friend on this other project called Tutorials which was so

ahead of its time. The idea was tutorials, tutorials for you by you.

>> Nice.

>> And so it's people contributing things they've learned and writing a how-to, like how to make eggs, how to take a quick shower, and it was all these >> That's like Tik Tok, right?

>> It's like Tik Tok. It was before Wikipedia, I think.

>> I know. Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's like YouTube. It's like

>> that's like what I watch Tik Tok for is like watching people make >> Yeah. And parenting advice and

>> Yeah. And parenting advice and >> things to be afraid of.

>> Yeah. And dance videos. Yeah.

>> So it was >> That's what your thing was or that's what Tik Tok is?

>> That's what Tik Tok is, right? Yeah. So,

yeah, I was really proud of that.

>> Yeah. Yeah,

>> it sounds it sounds like it was ahead of time. Local mine was ahead of its time.

time. Local mine was ahead of its time.

>> And Local Mine. So, that was my startup.

We sold it to Airbnb. That's how I got there. Uh, Local Mine, amazing idea and

there. Uh, Local Mine, amazing idea and not something anyone needs really.

>> Uh, >> I still need it.

>> Like, you need it once in a while. So

just to briefly explain what that is, uh it was an app that sat on top of Foursquare and Gala when that was very cool and allowed you to ask questions of people checked in anywhere in the world.

So if you're like is there a long line at the mill which is near here? Should I

go? Is there a long line? What's like

the special?

>> You just use that basically the >> Yeah, we use the Google does it like is it busy? Yeah. Like you know all these

it busy? Yeah. Like you know all these other ways that you could solve this problem. It was very cool. Uh it was

problem. It was very cool. Uh it was amazing. Nobody needs it really.

amazing. Nobody needs it really.

>> If there's still things you want to ask >> you need like once in a while. you like

once a quarter and it's holy [ __ ] that's so good >> but you know you can't make a business out of that so >> I'm glad that we we exited >> today's episode is brought to you by DX

the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers to thrive in the AI era organizations need to adapt quickly but many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing

questions like which tools are working how are they being used what's actually driving value provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift. With DX, companies like

this shift. With DX, companies like Dropbox Booking.com Adion and Intercom. Get a deep understanding of

Intercom. Get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity. To learn

more, visit DX's website at getdx.com/lenny.

getdx.com/lenny.

That's getdx.com/lenny.

>> Okay. So, you were mentioning the the atheist bot with bunch of religious dating sites. Yeah.

dating sites. Yeah.

>> Reminded me that you were my first online date ever on a >> snatched >> platform called How about we and I remember that I mean you had had other

dates. Um

dates. Um >> where's this going >> anyway? No, but I remember you were like

>> anyway? No, but I remember you were like um had see I think you had a thing for designers.

>> Yeah.

>> And I wonder if you regret that preference >> like designer artist sort of like >> No, not at all.

>> stereotype. No. Like I'm not like like you're pretty neat.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's true. You're kind of chaotic. Yeah. Which is We could talk

chaotic. Yeah. Which is We could talk about your process, but it's like it's a messy process. It's true. You know, we

messy process. It's true. You know, we have a good yin-yang.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I'm just

>> Yeah. You're unstressed, unbothered. I'm

bothered.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm just things everywhere.

>> Yeah.

>> We got cleaners. They help things out.

>> Yeah. It's true.

>> You know.

>> Oh, yeah. Privilege.

>> It's worth it.

>> Okay. So, you're okay with designers still? Good. Uh, and then

still? Good. Uh, and then >> as a wipe.

>> Yeah. Right. Right.

>> Highly recommend.

>> Okay. Yeah.

>> Great. So, yeah, I was going to ask like do you have any tips for because it's like it's, you know, there's there's something you said recently which is like you don't have any co-workers. I

was like, I'm your cooworker. We work at home.

>> Um, but yeah. Do you feel do you ever feel like lonely not because you were always really social? And then this goes into too like even before you were niche famous or whatever we want to call it.

>> Sorry. people are always coming up to you on the street like you know from Airbnb from Airbnb because you're organizing things and >> um do you feel like you miss office culture?

>> I have people ask me that over the years and I've always like no it's amazing I don't need that like I just doing my own thing and I don't need people around but I've kind of started to feel that a little bit of just like huh there's no one like I just sit at home all day and

just like >> our dog likes to be right next to you.

>> Yeah. Yeah. He's sweet.

>> Yeah. Uh, so I do feel like I do miss it now. It's not like a huge problem, but

now. It's not like a huge problem, but it's just like, you know, it' be cool to just jam with someone on stuff and I have a team and I have you and Twitter.

>> Well, you like to go to coffee shops.

>> I like to go to Yeah.

>> What do you What do you get?

>> But it's like bowling alone kind of. I

don't know. It's like, is that a good metaphor? Like

metaphor? Like >> And you have your head You put your headphones on. Yeah.

headphones on. Yeah.

>> And you're focused. It's like

>> Yeah. So it would be fun. Like I have an awesome team and we jam on stuff, but it's not like like I think there's a I do miss having someone next to me that I'm just working with on the same thing.

But I also am trying very hard to never have full-time employees. I'm trying to keep things really simple because it's so easy to build this thing into like this whole thing that's complicated that I'm like, what have I done? One of the

challenges with this life is you can create a job for yourself that you hate by doing things that people want you to do or by following opportunities that feel big and then you're like I hate

this. So I'm trying to be really careful

this. So I'm trying to be really careful about what I commit to and do. Coming

back to your question, I do miss it some. Yeah. It's like a new thing I've

some. Yeah. It's like a new thing I've realized that I miss is being around other people like working on the same thing.

>> Yeah. So speaking of other people like coming up to you and being around other people, it I think it's become harder for you now that now that people you don't know come up to you because I think you actually have a little bit of face blindness.

>> Absolutely.

>> So people who people who do know you >> come up to you and you're like and you're like waiting to know if if they just listen to your podcast or if you >> like I know if I know that like >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. This is a big problem for me. It's

like >> it's like another brain disorder I guess where I just don't remember people's names. I'm so bad at it. So, I just like

names. I'm so bad at it. So, I just like I know you. Who are you? It's like

people texting you from a new number.

I'm like, who is this?

>> Yeah. Sometimes I feel like the Devil Wears Prada um assistant where I'm like, "That's Emily. You worked with her on

"That's Emily. You worked with her on Airbnb or that's >> You don't do that. You need to do that."

>> I I do it sometimes.

>> You do that sometimes. Okay.

>> Yeah. So bad at that. Okay. So, if you come up to me and you say hello and I don't recognize you, please. Sorry. I'm

really bad at it. And yeah, it's like gotten worse because now I know more people through the podcast and newsletter and like >> Right. And you just know a lot of

>> Right. And you just know a lot of people.

>> Yeah. It's like faces.

>> You're very kind with people.

>> I try. I try.

>> Try.

>> Okay. So, going back to the like unbothered vibe that you have. Tell me about a time you've been really stressed in your business and then a time you've been

really stressed in your personal life.

>> Okay. So, on the business side, uh, so I have this product pass. So, as a subscriber to my newsletter, you get 23 incredible products and I used to read

them all. Linear mob and lovable replet

them all. Linear mob and lovable replet gamma. I stopped doing this because

gamma. I stopped doing this because there's too many now. I had the end of my podcast. I just read through them all

my podcast. I just read through them all and now I can't do it anymore. There's

too many. I had a launch about a year ago. It's about a year actually where I

ago. It's about a year actually where I launched you get a free year of cursor and lovable and bolt and replet and

vzero. I think that's five. And so, uh,

vzero. I think that's five. And so, uh, that was way too good an offer. People

came for it, bad people. So, I just had so many fraudsters, mostly in China, it turned out, just like all these fraud rings in China, trying to find ways to

steal all my all these free goodies. So,

they set up all these crazy attacks. And

I had to work with Stripe and Substack to just like shut them down. and they

just found all these little exploits in our API that we built and like this. So,

it's like such a nightmare because we're just like waking up to like every night it was like hard to sleep and I have this engineer uh Estee who's so

incredible and he likes didn't sleep for a week stopping filling all these holes because there's a lot of lot of smart clever bad guys out there. So, that was extremely stressful. Like it could

extremely stressful. Like it could trickle down into the whole thing falling apart if everyone's like, "Oh my god, can't trust Lenny anymore."

So, as you remember, it was very stressful. I didn't sleep too well and

stressful. I didn't sleep too well and it was like very scary and there's all these they just kept popping up and there's all these like rings and it went viral in China, too. That's like in in the student network. They just holy

[ __ ] you get a year free of cursor and lovable and replet and bolt and vzero and uh so it was very stressful to answer your question on the personal

side. Okay, so when our baby was born,

side. Okay, so when our baby was born, the birth was very complicated. Uh, you

had to get a C-section because the induction wasn't getting it there because Yeah, it was >> complicated.

>> Complicated.

>> Normally, I feel like I would tell the story but >> you weren't awake.

>> But this is also like a when Harry met Sally, but it's like how the the pregnant person almost died, you know.

But okay, but it's from your perspective because I didn't get to experience it, >> right?

>> So, >> yeah. So what happened is we had to you

>> yeah. So what happened is we had to you had to do a cacaian. They gave you an And so the idea is they bring you into the operating room. They do the anesthetic,

the epidural or whatever it's called, and then they let the husband, the partner in. And so I was waiting in the

partner in. And so I was waiting in the hall waiting for them to do the anesthetic, >> your scrubs.

>> They gave me a whole bunny suit. Yeah.

Super sterile. Just standing there in this bunny suit thing. And the idea is they do the anesthetic and I can come in and then watch the birth and all that

stuff and 5 10 minutes in I just hear beep and the doctor runs out, scrubs her hands, runs back in and then all the two

other people run from another room down the hall into the room. They're

like uhoh.

Uh and >> you were scared. You were

>> I was scared.

>> I was very scared because I had no idea what was going on. That didn't sound good.

>> Nobody told you anything.

>> Nobody was telling me anything. I was

supposed to be in there. No one's coming out like here's what's happening >> and it was like 10 minutes of just nothing.

>> Yeah. And you were supposed to be in there after like a minute.

>> Yeah. It's going to be quick. Yeah.

Yeah. I was supposed to be like, "Come on in. We're going to do this, you know,

on in. We're going to do this, you know, and like you're awake during it, you know, in real life." So, I just remember pacing down the hall using coming back to the lessons I've learned just like

it's gonna be okay. It's going to be okay. That's what I remember saying to

okay. That's what I remember saying to myself, just kind of trust that they know what they're doing. You know, we're in a hospital. There's a lot of doctors around.

And and then eventually they came back and they just said that the epidural went the wrong direction. And so instead of going down, it went up your body and so was stopped was stopping your heart and lungs and they had to intubate you

and do an emergency intubation and get the baby out and then took like an hour for you to come back. They were they were going to put you in ICU to help you come back. So that was very scary cuz

come back. So that was very scary cuz you weren't there. I didn't know what's going on.

>> And you got to hold You got to hold the baby for like an hour.

>> Yeah.

>> Without So that's why he's like a he's like only papa. He's a he's another person

only papa. He's a he's another person that that prefers you.

>> Who's the other person?

>> Our dog.

>> You know, cuz you're now for now. Cuz

you're you know, you're a sweet sweet guy. But yeah, it's uh

guy. But yeah, it's uh >> Yeah, that was really scary.

>> Stressful.

thought it was going to be okay.

>> Yeah, that was that was the thing that helped. But it was like very scary cuz

helped. But it was like very scary cuz it's just like life could be completely different now. Like something like you

different now. Like something like you know like you could have like the guy the anesthesiologist said it was a one in 50,000 chance and it's like the worst

scenario that is very rare and very dangerous. And so it was extremely scary

dangerous. And so it was extremely scary and and luckily he did a great job and everyone's like he killed it. He did

like he he knew exactly what to do. He

handled it really well.

Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And I don't have any memory. You

remember this?

>> It numbed my >> just came back.

>> Numbed my lungs and I was like, I can't breathe. And then and then I numbed my

breathe. And then and then I numbed my spinal brain stem and then I passed out.

>> How about that?

>> How about that? I didn't had to get to have any >> Yeah. How does it Looking back? Are you

>> Yeah. How does it Looking back? Are you

Are you >> We don't have to talk about it.

>> Okay.

>> Looking No. Yeah. It's uh that that's it's that's what you said, but it's interesting to like not have an experience around it. And the experience was like the live experience is more.

>> Yeah. It's probably the scariest moment of my life.

>> Yeah. And I didn't I wasn't I didn't know anything about it because they put me under general anesthesia and then I was all loopy and then I didn't even know really what and then later I read the report like months later I read it.

I actually had someone else read it who was in the field and she's like it was your cousin Lois and she like moved her thick glasses like wow.

>> Yeah, she was like a nurse back then.

Yeah.

>> Anyway, stressful moment. Uh yeah, so you used your tools.

>> Yeah, I used my tools otherwise. You

know, that's a good point cuz it could have been like spiral like oh my god.

>> And our d we had a doula but she had left >> the doula was going to be there but for Cesareian she's like I can't be here.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Okay, I want to ask you a question, but unless you have something we want to follow up, >> okay, so you come up with these incredible charts. They're just like,

incredible charts. They're just like, you know, it's like the kind of charts you see on the internet that are like, "Oh my god, that's so genius." And

watching you come up with it is so wild cuz you just you're just like it pops out of nowhere and then there's like a little bit of iteration and like that's it. What's the process for you coming up

it. What's the process for you coming up with a chart and what's like the environment that you need to create your best work? Feel like coffee is a big

best work? Feel like coffee is a big part of it.

>> Coffee is like it's like not too much.

There there's one I have that it's like I mean it has to be the perfect amount of coffee. So I actually usually get a

of coffee. So I actually usually get a single shot.

>> Do you know about a the bomber peak by the way? Quick tangent.

the way? Quick tangent.

>> Okay.

>> Okay. So there's a concept called the bomber peak.

>> Yeah.

>> From XKCD which is just the right amount of alcohol where you're the most insightful and creative and then it falls down which is like I don't know. I

forget why this is Steve Bomber related but so the bomber people.

>> I have one like that about coffee but it's not. It's made out of a little

it's not. It's made out of a little coffee straw and it's like >> we're going to show this on YouTube if you're watching this so you can see the chart. It's like I'm a genius and then

chart. It's like I'm a genius and then I'm having a panic attack. And so that's me is is like is like yeah I'll get to this point where I feel like I mean coffee is a drug, right? So if I have

too much it is like a drug and I'm I feel like a genius and I'm like having all these ideas but then I think it's it's too like I don't know if this was a real image but there was an image of spiderw webs and it's like this is a

spiderweb that ingested some this I don't >> LSD and stuff.

>> Oh yeah. And this is a that had spider that had coffee. And it's like instead of a regular web, it's like a web that goes like this. Like it's like just erratic and tangential. And I have some

of some really good some really good like seeds of ideas in those moments.

Then I have to go like scream into a pillow or something.

>> Well, is that when you have too much coffee or >> when I have too much coffee? But but if there's a point like right before that.

>> So single shot latte.

>> Single shot is what I get. Single shot

latte at least an hour. Sometimes it's

good to have a like a somewhere I have to be to a time limit and then I'm kind of like I I feel like a machine uh and it's like trying really hard to

get somewhere. And then the other thing

get somewhere. And then the other thing is just like a lot of it is writing something down as I'm out in the world like writing and then putting it trying to put it on paper in a way that

visualizes it because I'm not strong at drawing. So, and yeah, when I was a kid,

drawing. So, and yeah, when I was a kid, my dad did a lot of math with me and a lot of like, you know, fractals and visualization and patterns and so I sort

of think that way um like mathematically kind of and um yeah, so it helps me to visualize an idea uh that in the simplest way possible.

>> Let me just say this is very cool that we're doing this. This is like really fun.

>> So sweet.

>> Oh >> yeah, this is like really nice. Yeah,

this is our Odessa moment.

>> Yeah, >> you were born in Odessa, too.

>> No, no, but one of my questions was like um I don't know. This would be like if I were in the audience, it would be more like a comment on >> versus a question.

>> Yeah, we're pretending to be a question.

Yeah, we're both uh our families are both from countries that like mine from Venezuela, yours from Ukraine where people are always like, "Oh, does that like like we didn't just arrive

>> right >> from Venezuela or Ukraine, so it's like not >> the same."

>> Yeah.

>> So, we have to like almost make them feel be okay like it's okay. I mean, so my family still lives in Venezuela, but >> Okay. So, I asked you a question. Okay.

>> Okay. So, I asked you a question. Okay.

Um Oh, >> that's back to you.

>> Okay, great.

>> Yeah. Well, yeah. No. Okay. Let me

reflect back what you said because this is really interesting. So, a single shot like So, it's like some kind of like uh neuro stimulation. I don't know. Single

neuro stimulation. I don't know. Single

shot just enough. Uh I like this deadline piece. That was really

deadline piece. That was really interesting.

>> It's like not too much time, not not like not 30 minutes. Although that that can be why I'm late often is I'm like I just I've almost got it. I just, you

know, I I'm a time optimist as you know that I'm like I think I have it and then but but a good good time is like two hours and then a two I have to be

somewhere in two hours.

>> Interesting. Okay. So those are two elements and then was there another to for optimal creativity.

>> Oh a good night of sleep. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> The bad night of sleep plus plus too much caffeine. Then you don't have any

much caffeine. Then you don't have any you know you have no ideas. You just

have the like frantic piece of the caffeine, the like mental energy.

>> Anything else? This is this is really interesting. I think just the idea of

interesting. I think just the idea of what is what creates creativity.

>> Just like experiences experiences and thinking and and almost like thinking too much about them.

>> Thinking I like that. Maybe

overthinking.

>> Yeah. Right. Yeah.

>> Back to you, Michelle Real.

>> Oh, to back to me to you. Yeah. Okay.

So, we did the thunder round. We did the the the worst things to hear. Okay. And

the best sounds which your sons Yeah.

laugh.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Agreed. Do you Okay, we probably know your favorite like product management books. Do you have a favorite children's

books. Do you have a favorite children's book other than mine >> to read to read to and also in April?

>> And also maybe you could you could do more than one because you know they like maybe there's one when you was a baby >> like I feel like a chart is >> and you never take my ideas because I feel like you don't want to

>> I don't want to >> you want it to be your ideas.

>> Yeah.

>> But I feel like there's a books you love that are children's books and books your kid loves.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. And it's like I hate reading this one, but he loves it, so we're going to do it.

>> Yeah.

>> So, it's like he decides what his favorite are. I love John Classen books.

favorite are. I love John Classen books.

They're so like beautiful and just like sweet. So, those have been read.

sweet. So, those have been read.

>> Are they sweet?

>> They're like actually not sweet. You're

right. There's like death in all of them.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. They all end in death.

>> Yeah. Like uh dude's new thing is like he ate the bunny.

>> Is it the bear? The bear book.

>> Yeah.

>> Like he stole my hat. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah, like we start the book and he's like, he ate the bunny. Where's the

bunny? Like in his belly.

>> But is Yeah. Is there any like overlap?

You think there's a favorite that that that one is that's his favorite that you now love because that you didn't love initially?

>> Yeah. Like Dr. Seuss, I think we similarly feel it's like way too long as one cuz it's like 50 pages, 60 pages. Like words to say. It's a lot

60 pages. Like words to say. It's a lot of words and there's just like all these madeup animals and >> and like he's like what's a Zong?

>> Yeah.

>> Like there that's a Zong.

>> Yeah. They're you're like trying to teach them real things in the world and then he's like what was that tale of a song? Like what?

song? Like what?

>> Vipper from VIP. Yeah.

>> No. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I don't know. I don't like that.

Uh >> but we like but we like reading them.

>> We've kind of Yeah. There's like a rhythm.

>> Well, like anything in Spanish I read to him obviously.

And Yeah. I mean anything you want to say about like I don't know. Is there

any sort of like product anything you've learned in product management or like growth that has translated to parenting?

>> You know, like product management is all about influence and that's basically parenting.

>> That's why he likes you better.

>> Why? Cuz I can influence. But you also have to make him do stuff, you know.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> They're like, you do have authority, you know? Uh all the responsibility without

know? Uh all the responsibility without the authority, but you do have authority. So it's easy. They have the

authority. So it's easy. They have the they feel like all the >> authority. It's true. Just like nope,

>> authority. It's true. Just like nope, here's you sit there.

>> Yeah. I feel like I see your product management in that like you make him like I should be the one making him a chart, but you make you make him like the like here's how if bedtime gets too long, you're like here's how bedtime's going to go. We're going to read you

three books. You get a star.

three books. You get a star.

And then also I'm answering for you.

Sorry. Go

>> on.

>> Other things where it's like things where it it's where I'm kind of like, yeah, it just happens the way it's happened. and you're like, "No, I read a

happened. and you're like, "No, I read a book on it. I read three books on it, and this is how we're going to do it."

And and that's and it's going to work.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't >> right. Yeah. I'm not like an intuition

>> right. Yeah. I'm not like an intuition guy. I'm just like, "What if the

guy. I'm just like, "What if the smartest people figured out about this?"

This isn't the first time somebody has tried to shorten bedtime, >> right? Shorten bedtime, sleep through

>> right? Shorten bedtime, sleep through the night, >> right?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. There's like Yeah. There's like

smart people that have tried this stuff before.

>> Yeah. And can tell me what they've done.

>> Small eye roll.

And okay, so I guess this is I think my last question for you and I don't know if you want to answer it, but like I as your wife uh of however many years like

10 still I don't think I know what product management is. Do can you tell me in five words?

>> That's hilarious. Okay, I will. My words

are impact, collaboration, judgment alignment and this is a really good question. And

it's almost like the the order is like how you think about product management.

Like, you know, it's like the order you put them in. And what else? I'll just

say some stuff because it's really interesting. Coordination.

interesting. Coordination.

>> I think that's five.

>> Organizing, planning.

>> Okay. outcomes.

>> I have just tuned out.

>> There's so many like shut up. So boring.

And I'm just like, what should have I said? That's what I'm going to think

said? That's what I'm going to think about now. But it's Yeah, it's like a

about now. But it's Yeah, it's like a crazy weird job. All these different things. Yeah. Now I'm just like sniped.

things. Yeah. Now I'm just like sniped.

I want to keep thinking.

>> Yeah. I keep

>> I'll give you my definition of product management.

>> Yeah. You can't say mini CEO.

>> No, I'm no mini CEO. That's that's not cool. Although I actually do think PM is

cool. Although I actually do think PM is a mini CEO. Like I think people keep saying you're not, but I think you are.

>> Yeah. You can't say like not a pro project manager.

>> Not a project manager. That's right. I

think the way I describe it is uh your job as a product manager is to deliver business impact by prioritizing and solving the most impactful business problems.

Something like that. That's many words.

>> Yeah.

>> You're like this is why I never know what it is. It's so boring. What are you even talking about?

>> Cool.

>> Like this comes back to the mini co thing. Just to close that thread. I feel

thing. Just to close that thread. I feel

like the PM on the team is basically should be thinking the way the CEO thinks you know like their job is to think what would the CEO do on this specific product or feature because the

co's job is make the successful make this business grow and so your job as a PM is to kind of channel that what will allow this team and product to help the business be more successful.

>> Do you feel like you're doing that as as uh the I guess you are >> I'm everything you know like in my current world right >> you're editor-inchief too.

>> Editor-inchief. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. But I have a copy editor. I have

an editor. So, I've helped.

>> Oh, right. Yeah.

>> Yeah. People ask me what about product management helped me do the job I do now. I don't think there's anything to

now. I don't think there's anything to be honest except just like things I was already into, which is just being very organized, having a very high bar for quality, communicating. Like I think

quality, communicating. Like I think communication maybe is just like how to succinctly communicate points so that people grasp them.

>> That's like, >> whoa, look at this. We're the same.

introducing >> the key is just communicating something simply.

>> Wow.

Well, let me ask you one more question.

So, maybe it's a close. You wrote two adult books. You now did a children's

adult books. You now did a children's book. Why the pivot to children's books?

book. Why the pivot to children's books?

Why did you decide to do a children's book? I wanted to do a children's book

book? I wanted to do a children's book based on the first adult book because I thought that charts are so they're like a ton of early learning concepts put

together. So if you look at children's

together. So if you look at children's books they're you know the themes are often opposites,

colors, shapes, feelings. Um, and then I just I was thinking like you can really you can really teach a lot from a chart and it's so simple. So it's a lot it's a

lot of opposites. It's big and small.

It's it's uh you've got going up and going down. You've got overlapping

going down. You've got overlapping colors becoming another color. You've

got you can make a lot of feelings with with charts. That's the second book in

with charts. That's the second book in the series that that I'm >> It's coming out next year.

>> Yeah. But we but yeah I I finished it but it's you know it still takes about a year to to come out after that but yeah it's it it was this like uh I wanted to work on it in abstract like I had I had

the thought of wanting to work on it but it didn't come until I started trying to work on another adult book that I really just had all these rhymes in my like I had it was more like a cadence. I had

just like this like you know in my head and and yeah I just tried it and it came really quickly the first draft and yeah and it it also yeah I always wanted to

make one because as as a little girl my dad wanted me to he was a geoysicist he wanted me to be strong at math he was like you know cuz at the time it was kind of like girls um weren't encouraged

necessarily to be good at math so he from just like a young age he was always showing me I did the same with our son too like always showing him patterns turns and like, oh, if you flip it, it's

like that. And it's just really fun for

like that. And it's just really fun for me. And it's it's cool, too. Uh, writing

me. And it's it's cool, too. Uh, writing

the first one with like our son growing up, learning from experience, like I was saying, like having the experiences of him as a baby and like how I'm learning how to teach him things. Then he gets a little older and then that helped me

work on the the feelings. And I've also learned how to speak to kids as well.

When I didn't have any, I was like, I don't know what to say to you. and now

it feels more natural. And so I I I had a a children's book that I tried to write before I had kids. And for me, that one wasn't as good. And so I feel

like I gained a little bit of just like how to talk to child.

>> That's a really good like segue or not segue, I don't know, connection to something that we've talked about a few times is the best stuff comes from like actual experience. Like because you had

actual experience. Like because you had a children's book like you said that you wrote before you had food and then it wasn't good and now having the experience you can actually make something great.

>> Yeah. And then also like another thing I thought about was just reading so many children's books. People always say if

children's books. People always say if you want to write read and yeah we read a lot we read still a lot of lot of books and it um it just got me in that

zone too.

>> Yeah. It just makes me think about something I think has been key to my newsletter success is uh it is based on like real life doing the thing like at this point most of my posts are guest

posts where somebody sharing the best thing they've learned in their career like the one thing they want to share which I love and it all comes from something I focus a lot on is from people on the ground doing the thing not

just floating in the clouds pontificating and that's the source of the best advice is from practitioners doing the thing for real you you know, not just pontificating. It's just I think that's

pontificating. It's just I think that's a really good maybe one takeaway is just the best stuff comes from doing the thing and then sharing your advice versus just thinking you know what you're doing >> and then >> communicating it simply

>> simply and just like refining. I don't

even get into just all the work that goes into refining.

>> And then yeah, we always you always talk about like Yeah. Another thing I do is like I often make it's it's stressful because I make things and I I'm not sure if they're good enough yet and I put them to the side and then I come back

and and I might have an idea knowing that it's already in my head. I might

have an idea like, "Oh yeah, that's what's going to make that better." Or I go to work on it again and some other thing adds to it, but then as you've set it aside, then you see something else.

You see something in the world like, "Oh shoot, somebody beat me to that thing I didn't ever do anything with." really

like. So that's cool to like to like have something sitting like with with maybe with your podcast and >> Yeah. Well, let me ask you this and I'll

>> Yeah. Well, let me ask you this and I'll answer for my own myself. How many

iterations do you do on a chart on average? Like how many times do you like

average? Like how many times do you like edit it and refine it?

>> Uh it depends. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> What's like the median?

>> At least five.

>> Okay. Like for me I think it's like 60.

>> I was going to say 100.

>> Okay. That's probably the real answer.

>> I can't even physically do that. It's

like I I need Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's just like >> Well, what do you mean by >> So, like when I write a newsletter post, I go through it probably, let's say, 50 times making it better. Like I start there's like something that's the beginnings and then read through it and

add to it, read through it, add to it, read through it, add to it, improve, improve, improve, improve like 50 times and then I have my editor go through it and I have a copy editor go through it and a designer help me.

>> You don't do that with your emails though.

>> I No, I should.

>> I do do that with my emails, which it should be. I shouldn't be doing that.

should be. I shouldn't be doing that.

Like I read them over and over.

>> You do? Okay. I used to. I used to.

>> But no, I do. I Yeah.

>> Anyway.

>> Yeah.

>> Anything else?

>> Oh, I mean, yeah. Let me You plug Do you want to plug?

>> Absolutely. Uh, when is it coming out?

>> April 7th.

>> April 7th. So, it's like a few weeks, I think, from when this comes out.

Assuming this comes out.

>> Yeah.

>> We'll see how it turns out.

>> We're going to check it out.

>> We'll check it out. If you're seeing this, we checked it out. It was a success.

>> It was okay.

>> Uh, so Charts for Baby's coming out April 7th.

>> April 7th. April 7th.

>> All your favorite retailers.

>> Yep. Local bookstores.

>> Local bookstores.

>> Wherever you buy your book.

>> What's the age range of kids?

>> It's 2 to four. It's called for babies.

I did do a a chart recently about like how long is your baby a baby and and it uh Yeah. It's like baby is this

uh Yeah. It's like baby is this infant is like one to two and then it's like it's your baby infinity. Yeah. So

I've noticed like we still call him the not really anymore like the baby.

>> Oh, for sure.

>> Yeah. Um, but he's like almost three and uh, so yeah, it could be like I would say zero to four or and uh, yeah, you know what? Should I grab it?

know what? Should I grab it?

>> Yeah, let's grab it. Let's just break the frame.

>> I people on the recording hit but the the first like the end paper is what this is called. It shows all the like things you can learn. Sizes, shapes,

lines numbers directions feelings colors, mounts, sharing concepts, relationships, opposites. Anyway, I'm

relationships, opposites. Anyway, I'm not good at self promotion clearly. So

I'll stop it. Yeah, it's uh it's it's a lot of learning.

It's beautiful. It's hilarious. It's

clever. It's

>> early learning concept, >> funny simply illustrated rhyming.

>> We'll link to it.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh, congrats on releasing this book. I

know it was a lot of work.

>> Thanks. It was a lot of work. I did have a lot of iterations.

>> The secret to success.

>> Yeah.

>> Iteration. Editing.

>> Editing. Okay. Spending more time is what your old boss used to say.

>> Spend more time on it.

>> Spend more time, >> Vlad. Yeah.

>> Vlad. Yeah.

>> Anyway.

>> Okay. All good. We done.

Michelle, thank you so much for being here.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> I'll ask you my typical questions that ask at the end. How can where do people find you online? How can listeners be useful to you?

>> My website michelrial.com r i a l or I'm also on Instagram. Not not too much these days, but still a little bit. You

can look for the book Charts for Babies, >> right?

>> Yeah. I don't know if when this will be out. You can either pre-order it or

out. You can either pre-order it or order it.

>> Great.

>> One of the Yeah.

>> parenthesis pre but order.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle, thanks for being here.

>> And I hope you like it and thank you.

Thanks for having me.

>> My pleasure.

>> I know you have a high bar.

>> Absolutely. You hit it.

>> Okay, great. And yeah, I hope you were okay with the interview.

>> A+. It's going to It's going to do numbers.

All right, let's get out of here. Okay,

bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable,

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