How I Built an $8M Business with 0 Employees | Justin Welsh (Solopreneur)

there's the path of like being very

specific and there's the path of being

very viral and generic I am really

specific on solo preneurship like we

talk about the same stuff every single

day all the time right so as you grow

your audience the audience that you're

growing is specific my first product was

$50 if they spend $50 can you deliver

$50,000 of value and like set the stage

for a deep future relationship for the

next decade right you have that option a

few years later you could do a core

product as your audience grows and

maintains specificity right then if you

keep growing like me get you you know

million followers million and a half

across a few platforms you can drop your

high ticket offer like I did with the

Creator MBA because I've been feating

the same drum for so long the reverse of

that is when you don't have a specific

audience when your audience is

relatively generic when you're talking

about things like just general

productivity for example right

productivity in and of itself is a thing

but there are so many different types of

productivity it's it can get so much

more Niche than that and so what happens

is you might have a harder time as your

audience grows we don't think about that

and we're creating our content when

we're building our Brands we're trying

to be entertaining and get the most

likes it's like no be that guy be the

guy who solves a very specific problem

that's painful for a very specific

company or person all right well my

guest today is the one and only Justin

Welsh Justin Ley startup executive role

in 2019 after suffering from burnout

since then he's made8 billion by help

helping creators and entrepreneurs

become successful solar preneurs and

I've taken his course creator MBA and

honestly it's one of the highest Insight

per minute courses that I've ever taken

so welcome Jon thanks man Peter I

appreciate you having me and thanks for

the kind words and thanks for being a

customer all right so let's go back to

um I think 2018 2019 you know you were

the VP of sales at a fast growing

startup you had 150 reports or something

like that so for by all means it's kind

of like society's traditional definition

of success right but like when did you

realize that you actually needed a

change from that career path yeah you

know becoming like a VP of sales was

sort of the upper echelon of what I

wanted to reach in my career and when I

was a salesperson and then a manager and

then a director like that was the thing

that's what I wanted to be and when I

got there I loved it and you know grew

the team from just one sales guy to 150

salespeople I had maybe six to eight

direct reports but the team was big and

the targets were big

and back in 2015 to 2019 when that was

my life it was the growth at all costs

phase and startups and so you know every

Target got bigger faster you know the

stakes got higher and it got more

nerve-wracking right like I hit I think

16 quarters in a row of my target even

though they were massively big and

people think the burnout comes from

working really hard or working too hard

or working too long and I don't actually

think that's why burnout happens I can

work hard for a long period of time as

can a lot of people I think burnout

starts to happen when you lose control

and so I often kind of bring up this

example where if you've played Tetris

before you know as the levels get harder

and harder the pieces start falling

faster and faster and you have to make

moves much faster and when you mess up a

move it compounds very quickly because

the pieces just start stacking on top of

one another really fast and that is what

it's like when you start to feel out of

control at a company or in your role

when like you make a mistake and one

mistake becomes two becomes four becomes

16 becomes 19 like it just multiplies

right and it multiplies fast and so I

knew that I needed a break because I

coped with burnout in the same way that

a lot of people do which is I ate too

much I drank too much I didn't exercise

very much I didn't get much sleep I

wasn't a great husband I wasn't paying

attention to my family and that all sort

of culminated in this panic attack that

I had in December of 2018 which was like

if you've never had one it sounds silly

like a panic attack but it was like

pretty a pretty meaningful day of my

life where I didn't really know what was

happening and I thought I was dying and

that was the day that I knew that I

needed to make a change and I had a

conversation with my bosses the

following Monday and they were super

receptive and understanding and I ended

up staying for another eight months and

getting myself back into mental and

physical shape got it and it's kind of

like a big leap to make right because

you've kind of made it as VP sales and

for for you to tell your boss that

actually you know I don't want to become

SVP or coo I just want to make a change

that but I guess when when you actually

you know go to the hospital or something

it's kind of like a life it's kind of

like a wake up call yeah it was

interesting like I had aspirations of

becoming a cheap Revenue officer it

actually happened I went back to the

company a year later I was rehired to be

the chief Revenue officer so I was able

to sort of check that box in my career

which is really nice and I helped them

navigate growing the company through

covid but I got lucky in a weird way and

the way that I got lucky was I was

forced like a lot of people sit around

and they think about like should I you

know grow my side hustle should I become

an entrepreneur should I leave my job

like I didn't have a choice I back

myself into a corner physically and

mentally and the only choice I had was

to take a break and in a weird way that

was like a very lucky thing to happen to

me because it's like that was the only

option I had so I had to take it and it

made it a lot easier got it so I think

you know tech industry goes through

these ups and downs and I think many

tech people are feeling burn out right

now either they're like they lost their

job already or you know how this stuff

goes like you could be doing well at

your company and then they want to do

cost cutting and then you get La laid

off but you know I think a lot of people

still have mortgages to pay they live in

a Bay Area what what's your advice for

folks who are thinking about doing this

or trying to Take Back Control a little

bit yeah it's a phase approach right I

think there's a lot of like I think

people talk about media propaganda I

think everything is propaganda so like

if you go out and you read you know

internet

gurus propaganda it's all about like

working four hours a day on the beach or

like whatever it might be right and like

sure can you eventually reach that if

you put in the many years maybe but like

the truth in the reality in the

authentic way to sort of make it and to

gradually gain back some control is just

what I said it's fragile and so the the

first thing that you can do is figure

out just like

how might you get a little bit of

attention online maybe it's not even

online right maybe it's local maybe it's

online is not the only game it's the

biggest game so like how might you get a

little bit of attention and if you can

find 15 extra minutes every day to think

about attention and to put yourself out

there and to share the knowledge and the

skills that you've accumulated over the

course of your career or your hobbies or

things that you like doing in your free

time that's a great start right figure

out like what does it mean to Market

oneself because so many people people

are smart they have awesome business

ideas they've got great products they've

got great services but they can't

communicate and in the end communicating

your value is the thing that matters the

most so I would practice that I would

practice that for a long time until you

get really good at it and once you get

good at communicating your value and

sharing your expertise and your

knowledge that is when you can start you

know making a little bit of extra money

doing a little coaching maybe building a

product maybe you have a micras

Consulting business and as you get

traction you're going to start growing

over time and once you have reached a

certain threshold maybe your 60 to 70%

of your take-home earnings getting 40

hours a week back you're likely to

continue to grow and so think of it as a

phase gradual approach over many years

and just because you see someone who did

it faster doesn't mean that's the right

way to do it yeah in some ways is always

good to you know do a couple years while

having your main job because you know if

you just quit without having to income

you're going to put a ton of pressure on

yourself

and it's going to be pretty stressful

right so that's right that's right

people see that I went on social media

about eight months before I quit right I

had this panic attack and then I started

writing online because I was like okay

if I'm G to quit my job I have to like

gotta do something and I didn't know

what else to do other than like maybe I

would go talk about my expertise but

like I had timing on my side I did it in

2018 back before the platform that I

chose LinkedIn was even a popular place

to write right so I got luck timing like

don't follow my path and hope that you

have the same luck and timing that I do

follow a more gradual phased approach

and don't attempt to be an outlier like

try and be the person that thinks in the

long game and and takes their time and

has patience another thing that I think

you're really good at is you created

systems and stuff and one of your

systems is how to use your time more

effectively which is I think very

relevant for people want to start S

hustles right so can you talk about the

steps that you go through think about

where you're spend your time yeah I mean

it's it's not too comp complicated

effectively the way that I think about

spending time is you should probably

like anything around the Pito principle

is you should probably be spending your

time doing the 20% of things that

maximize 80% of your intended outcome

and that outcome may not be making money

it it might be growing a social media

audience it might be you know something

else you know spending more time on on

your hobbies but what I generally do is

I start by picking like an intended

outcome right so you might say my

intended outcome is to grow my business

Revenue right and so once you know that

you want to grow your business Revenue

all you do is you take a look at your

week like and this is what I do

something I do generally quarterly is

I'll just like lay out my week and I'll

say all right inside of any given week

what is what are every task that I do

during a week right so like if I think

about tasks that I do there's like I

write my newsletter I think of ideas I

create content I create my templates I

edit the newsletter I send it I do

podcasts I help people do login issues I

set up tracking on my Social Media stuff

I book sponsors I find Affiliates like

there's a million little tasks right

that fall you know to me to accomplish

or at least they used to and so once you

have all those tasks out you just look

and say all right like how much time do

I spend on these tests right do I spend

an hour two hours 30 minutes so on and

so forth and then you basically say all

right on a scale of whatever one to five

1 to 10 you pick the scale like how do

these tasks align with the the intended

impact that I'm trying to have like I

might say like scheduling a podcast

interview back and forth on email if you

tie that to generating revenue for my

business it's a one out of 10 right

sending my news making sure that my

newsletter high quality is probably nine

out of 10 so like you just kind of

assign value to each of these tasks and

what you're left with is you're left

with an assigned value from 1 to 10 or

one to five or however you want to rank

it and then you've got an hourly amount

of time that you spend each week and

then you have ratios you simply divide

those into one another and each thing

gets a gets a number right and what

you're trying to do is say all right I

got 60 tasks if I've have 60 tasks I'm

going to do the top 20% are the top 12

right so list those out in order from 1

to 60 so what are the top 12 that's

probably where you should spend your

time or if you want to say it's 50 the

top 10 right that's where you should

spend your time everything else should

have one of three sort of things

Tethered to it it should either be

simplified or eliminated first go

through and eliminate the bottom stuff

right like what's the the stuff that is

not important at all eliminate it get

rid of it after that it's like okay what

are some things that are really complex

that could be simplified and if you can

simplify those will they take up

significantly less time and therefore

have a better ratio number next up can

you automate something with a tool AI

automated tools zappier or whatever it

might be and then can you delegate

things and so I do this quarterly and

I'm left with the things that I should

do the things that I can automate

delegate elimin eliminate and simplify

and that keeps me on target for the

things I should be working yeah that's

awesome I think like additional wrinkle

is like some of these things could be

like very high value for generating

Revenue but like you just hate doing it

like J like I don't know like trying to

find sponsors or like you know teach a

bunch of live courses on the weekends so

then then totally you might want to try

to dedicate or automate some of that

still right it's like certainly and like

when when I go through the process it's

like

like any process there's Nuance to the

process so like if you look at your top

10 you're like man I hate doing one of

these things cool it's not it's not a

steadfast rule right you don't have to

be like oh unfortunately I have to do

these 10 things like okay you hate it

you're going to do nine out of the top

10 things and you're going to Outsource

that one thing or you're going to

automate that one thing or God forbid

you're GNA eliminate it so it's not

steadfast but it helps you get a sense

of where you should be sending your got

it okay so now let's talk about finding

your Niche and like crafting your unique

value prop by the way that that's like

probably my favorite part of your course

I think it's probably the most important

part so people keep talking about you

got find Niche how can people figure out

you know what problem other people are

going to pay them for like how do you

you start thinking about this yeah yeah

I mean there's a lot of ways right so

like I don't I'm certainly not the

authority on telling people how to find

their Niche although I think I'm pretty

good at it so I'm I'll share four ways

that you can think through it and again

it's not an exhaustive list I'm sure

someone listening will say oh I have a

fifth or a sixth way and that's awesome

again I'm not the authority but you know

one way is just pretty simple it's your

practical experience and it's your

credibility so what have you done at

work right like for example I was a

sales VP of sales and a sales leader

for I think 15 years 16 years right so

that was pretty easy so the first thing

that like I I did when I quit my job was

I didn't become the Creator that I am

today I built a Consulting business

helping Healthcare startups grow because

that's what i' done for 16 years so it's

like easy transition right so so one way

is practical experience and

credibility another one is just what I

might call like a learned Obsession it's

that thing that you don't do for a

living but you're completely obsessed

with so I pivoted over time I went from

helping Healthcare startups grow to

becoming a Creator and maybe what you

might call like digital marketing for

lack of a better description in Solo

preneurship and things like that I was

obsessed with that I never did it as a

career up until me doing it now but like

I was reading every book I was reading I

was listening to every podcast I was

reading every blog post I could find I

was tinkering with tools I was doing

marketing on the side creating content

read magnets webinars everything right

because I was super obsessed with that

that was an obsession that I just

learned and since I learned it over time

I became an expert without having you

know traditional experience or having it

in my title at work or anything like

that so that's another thing that you

can do and a lot of times people are

obsessed with something that's

completely unrelated to their job the

third thing that you can look at is just

what do people come to you for advice

for like we all have family and friends

that come and they say oh Peter's really

good at X or man Justin I was thinking

about you because I have this one

problem and I know like you're the guy

who can solve this thing and maybe

you're good at three things right but

it's like keep your eyes and ears open

for those things we're in such a

fast-paced world we're moving so quickly

we're not paying attention to Ms we're

consuming and creating we often don't

stop and like pause and be cognizant of

the things that people are coming to us

for help for and those can be really

awesome things to build a small side

hustle on and last is just problems

you've solved for yourself so like right

now I have a problem in my business and

I'm actively solving it and as I solve

that problem I'm like this is a cool

product this is a cool service like if

I'm having this problem how many other

creators are having this problem and

would pay a lot of money to solve it and

so I'm thinking about that as a product

and service because I'm fixing a problem

that I have myself so those are like

four ways I might approach solving the

problem got it and how do you because

like it's just kind of like building a

product and bring it to the market right

like how do you validate this with real

customers as soon as possible as opposed

to try to build something and then

realize people don't want this I guess

it's kind of obvious answer but like how

you go about it's obvious to me or and

maybe you but that doesn't mean it's

obvious to everyone five years ago I

would have said I have no idea right but

to me my inclination is to is to

actually help them on your own oneon-one

right so it's like identify five to 10

people who have those problems have

those aspirations and want to work with

you right and are they willing to put

some skin in the game and the amount

doesn't matter it's just are they

willing to spend money and time to solve

the problem that you solve them to reach

the aspirational stage that they want to

reach and if you can do that what you do

is you validate that a spend the money B

they'll spend the time C they'll show up

and they'll do the work and then D

you'll help them Reach the intended

outcome that you told them that you

would help them Reach if you can do

those four things then you have at least

a viable framework of a business right

if nobody's willing to spend money and

nobody's willing to spend time then you

have an idea but you don't have a

business right and so once you do that

what I would do is I would try and wrap

that into a process because I would

imagine that if you have five G guys and

gal

there are going to be commonalities

amongst all of them and as you help them

work through this problem or process you

will see all those commonalities those

commonalities become a framework right

so that as you bring more people in

you're like I know the five things we

got to nail in order to let them reach

their outcome to overcome their pain

points and then you turn that into a

process as a service business where you

can continue to work one-on-one with

people once you've validated that there

is more interest in the market and that

your solution actually works productize

it raise your rates on your service Side

Lower the rates on the product side for

those people who don't want to spend a

lot of money to do work one-on-one with

you let them work through a self-paced

product those people who want

handholding and want to spend time with

you one-on-one they've got the service

business this is exactly how I started

my business yeah it does seem like a

pretty Shire path it's just like you

know when I think service is business is

like a lot of a lot more meat a lot more

meetings on one-on ones but I you just

have to do it like doing a prod you just

got to talk to customers one-onone and

figure out what they want yeah it's like

saying I really want to build a product

but talking with customers sounds like a

lot of time like it it is but it's

important right so like you know I think

you hear a lot about these startup

Founders who want to build something I'm

just going to make up an example right

like they want to build something in

like supply chain right and they go and

they spend like a hundred hours on the

Amazon distribution centers or in the

supply chain place where they're doing

like you know manual labor to try and

understand the pain like you got to live

you got to live it before you can solve

it yeah I I think there was a step in

your process that you skipped I just

want to bring it back which is create a

movement and find a almost like find an

enemy or someone to fight maybe you can

give some examples of that from from you

or from other your friends like Dan or

folks yeah totally so that's more on the

marketing side right so like I don't

think you need that to validate a

business necessarily but if you want to

go out and you want to grow that

business you have to Market and so

marketing is a lot like politics and so

I'll give you kind of an example if you

look at American politics and I'm not

going to go down a political Rabbit Hole

or either party I don't care about any

of that stuff like just pick either

party right very rarely do they tell you

all the good things that they do instead

most of the focus is on the bad things

that the other party or candidate or

person does right it's they're creating

an enemy and if you think about some

marketing talk like there's a famous

quote and I'll probably mess it up which

is like you want to give people you want

to help people throw rocks at their

enemies I think it was Blair Warren who

said that and he's like kind of an old

old school marketer and throwing rocks

at your enemies is like you want to pick

a Target it doesn't have to be a person

it could be a mantra it could be a

movement it could be an ideology that

you are 100% against right and so for

example in your example like you're

against the idea of the traditional

career path like to become a better

engineer you do not need to lead people

you do not need to grow teams you want

to be a better engineer build better

products right build a career building

the best product possible so the reverse

of that is your enemy right and once you

have an enemy you can build a movement

because movements are built by defeating

another enemy so for example I'll give

you an example for my business I talk

about solo preneur right is solo

preneurship right for everybody it isn't

I'm very very candid about that very

clear about that but I also won't tell

someone they shouldn't try I'm not a

babysitter right I I think adults should

do whatever they they want to do my

enemy is the traditional career and life

path where you work for a company until

they don't need you anymore and you get

fired and you do that for 60 years

hoping you can save enough for

retirement and we know from the average

American they can't that sounds like a

shitty life to me right so like that's

the enemy and I throw rocks at that

enemy all the time and by throwing rocks

at that enemy I am building a movement

and the movement is that over here we've

got a group of solar preneurs who are

taking control of their life taking

control of their time and taking control

of their freedom right a guy like Dan go

a buddy of mine The Stereotype and that

stereotype is getting broken much faster

by a lot more people of like as an

entrepreneur you shouldn't be so busy

that you're out of shape right you

should be in the best shape of your life

like the way that you treat your body

should translate into how you treat your

business and your family and the type of

person that you are whether that's true

or not right that is the movement that

guys like Dan go body and mind is

building and by the way I don't want to

speak for Dan that might not be exactly

his movement but that's sort of how I I

see it and his enemy is you know the

entrepreneur who's letting themselves go

who's not keeping themselves in shape

who you know says they'll do anything

for their family but they're not getting

in shape for their family that's his

enemy right and so I think by having

these two sort of jux opposing things

the enemy and the movement you could to

Market a lot more effectively that's

part of what marketing is yeah it does

uh I'm not going to talk about either

party but with the politics stuff like

one my big frustration is like they just

keep talking about each other they

don't actually talk about what they're

gonna do for the country if they get

elected like tell me what you'll do for

me that's right tell me what you do for

me that doesn't sell man unfortunately

by the way yeah I wish it did that's

crazy that's crazy okay so after you've

crafted a really good unique value

proposition and you when talk bunch of

customers you validate it people maybe

pay you some money for it you have this

really simple funnel to actually get

attention and to you know get people to

actually like build relationships and

actually spend on your product may we

can talk about it just at a really high

level first yeah sure I keep it simple

because I think most marketing is over

complicated not all marketing by the way

I'm not trying to paint with a broad

brush there are

certainly you know times and situations

that call for complex marketing but for

the most part there's the old school

marketing fun right I think it's

awareness

idea I can't even remember awareness

something decision action right I can't

even remember because I don't really

follow that one I follow my own so

mine's a little bit different right it's

get discovered build trust deepen

relationships and monetize very simple

so I'll kind of talk about it from a

high L right so the top of the funnel is

just called getting discovered and so

getting discovered simply means getting

your name your face your brand what you

do who you help your knowledge in front

of as many people as possible right as

many people as possible because you want

people to resonate with your message you

want them to have an opportunity to hook

on to your movement to join you in

throwing rocks at the enemy to share it

with their friends who say hey Jim this

sounds a lot like what you were telling

me about man you should follow this guy

right getting discovered is huge and

that is all organic soci so organic

social to me is all about getting

discovered and so that's why I'm very

active on platforms like LinkedIn like X

like Instagram like threads I just try

and get top of funnel Discovery all the

time you know my goal was like hundreds

of millions of Impressions every single

year getting discovered in and of itself

is not enough right you have to it's the

eyeing Aid is interest right but to me

that's about interest it's more about

trust so after getting discovered I want

to build trust and I don't mean trust

like you know you leave me at home to

babysit your kids or watch your house or

anything like that that's not the kind

of trust that I'm talking about the kind

of trust that I'm talking about is like

I trust this person is really good at

what they do I trust this person is not

just lip service that they're actually

an expert in the things they say they're

an expert in and the easiest way in my

opinion today to show trust or to build

trust is long form content and so long

form content can be written content a

newsletter a Blog a lengthy article it

can be video right a robust YouTube

video that takes someone from point A to

point B and 25 30 30 minutes like these

are a podcast right uh where you're

breaking down complex topics and making

them really simple these are all

opportunities to build trust if you can

get discovered and build trust you're in

a pretty good position to take the

people who want the thing that you have

trust you're the right person and make

some money at a business right if you

sell something very expensive there's

probably another step The Next Step

would be deepening the relationship and

that's why I think a lot of like

Enterprise level companies a lot of high

ticket sellers with really expensive

stuff benefit greatly from events

communities things where like people are

getting access to them in real time and

they're deepening that tie they're

strengthening that Bond they're really

going deep on this relationship because

we buy from people we know and like so

if you sell something that's a th bucks

you got to deepen that relationship and

by the way a th is an arbitrary number

that might be inexpensive to company and

expensive to an individual person but

hopefully you get the the point right

whereas if you sell something low ticket

$50 you might not need to deep in that

relationship after building trust you

might be ready to present your offer you

might say Hey you read all my stuff on

LinkedIn you've consumed all my

newsletters and articles you've checked

out all my long form videos are you

ready to work with someone to solve your

problem this thing's 50 or $99 like they

might be ready to pull the trigger right

then so it's Discovery trust Rel

relationship

monetization got it and what are some

ways that you've kind of optimized this

funnel that had kind of like a step

function change your business or is it

just a matter of showing up every day

and like doing doing it work yeah yeah

it's mostly the latter right but there

are certainly some ways that i' I've

gotten better at it so I'll give you an

example of how I sort of fine-tuned it

for a lack of a better description so

let's start with the top getting

discovered well getting discovered is a

function of the the value and quality of

piece of content that you create so I've

created probably 5,000 pieces of unique

content over the last five years and

there's new AI tools out there so what's

the first thing that I want to do I want

AI to analyze the thousands of things

that I've created and tell me what is it

about the top 50 that are similar right

what should I be what should I be trying

to do to maximize getting discovered so

often what I think is if you want to

improve Impressions it's the open the

hook right the opening and the hook kind

of Drive Impressions if you want to

drive engagement it's the body it's the

call to conversation those things Drive

comments reshares like the information

how good is it right outside of the hook

like after the hook did you deliver

right that stuff drives the engagement

drives the comments drives the retweets

and the reshares so like I'll look for

commonalities amongst those things and

what I'm trying to craft feeder is like

the perfect post what does the perfect

post look like that drives both

Impressions and engagement right and

then I'll look at a ratio of Impressions

to clicks to my website so like what

percentage of people that saw this thing

clicked through and went to the article

that I recommended and when I get these

ratios I can see okay just because

something had a million hits and drove a

thousand people to my website that's

good but what about something that only

had a 100,000 hits that drove a thousand

people to my website that's a better

call to action I got a larger percentage

of people to my site and so I like I'll

look at the comment alties and those

things I'll have ai break those down and

say what was it about this call to

action that you think drove a bunch of

people to my website again I'm trying to

have the perfect post so once you've got

the perfect post down it's like okay I

know the Hook's good I know the body's

good I know call to conversation's good

I know the link to my website's going to

work cool we're getting them to the

point where I'm starting to build trust

so I'm sending them to some article on

my website certain articles work better

than others so the same ratio how many

people read an article versus make a

purchase

if someone reads an article and 10% of

them make a purchase on this article or

they read this other article and 2% of

people make the purchase the first

article is five times more valuable

right so how do I create more articles

like that so now I've got the perfect

post hook body call to conversation link

to my website the right article this is

a well optimized funnel where I know

when I Stitch these things together and

I hit post it's going to lead to a lot

of Revenue those are the small and

nuanced things that I do to make sure

that the business is grow and you have

to be like somewhat analytical with this

stuff right so like how do you like one

one struggle I have is like you know my

newslet is on one platform social stuff

is on like these social platforms like I

have to freaking like make a manual

spreadsh with this funnel and try to

figure out myself yeah do you have any

like tools or something they use or just

you yeah I mean for the most part man

like you know I've got I use publishing

tools like most people I use tap Leo I

use tweet Hunter and they have built-in

analytics right so I can export that

stuff very quickly I've got website

analytics from fathom analytics like

that stuff again exported very quickly

so generally what I'd be and I've got

you know purchase history from kajabi so

like I export those three things I put

them into one spreadsheet I up I upload

them to something like Claude or chat

GPT and I'm like give me a breakdown

help me understand like what are the

posts what are the Articles like what is

it that work that that used to be all

manual but today there's no need with

all the new tools yeah the AI is really

good at doing this stuff like

summarizing a bunch of information like

getting you to take away St that's

probably what it's best at so yeah yeah

so many people are like leveraging AI to

like write comments and like write posts

and write newsletters and like there's

so much there's such a better way to use

it right now it's like keep your

creativity let it manage the data yeah

yeah exactly well this has being awesome

so far I just have let's talk about one

more topic mind yeah sure so I think

this is kind of eye opener for me you

know like you have this you have this

thing about creating stacked offers and

there kind of two paths that you talk

about one is like just like growing your

audience as big as possible and another

path is much more specific and much more

strategic and you know as someone who

has like posted these memes have got

like million plus views but like so

nothing like I'm very cognizant of this

so maybe talk about these two paths and

like why you recommend this other path

yeah yeah there's the path of like being

very specific and there's the path of

being very viral and generic and so by

the way no path is wrong it's just how

can harness the power of each path so

I'll give you an example and by the way

just because I say this person is in

this path like doesn't necessarily mean

that they are I am really specific on

solo preneurship Dan go is really

specific on helping Founders get their

time back and build their best bodies

like we talk about the same stuff every

single day all the time right so as you

grow your audience the audience that

you're growing is specific right and so

as you grow a specific audience your

options are more plentiful right so you

can do things like create a micro offer

as you get a little bit bigger you're

you're testing the waters will your

audience spend money with you if they do

let's say they spend my first product

was $50 if they spend $50 can you

deliver $50,000 of value and like set

the stage for a deep future relationship

the next decade right you have that

option a few years later you could do a

core product as your audience grows and

maintains specificity right then if you

keep growing like me get you you know

know million followers million and a

half across a few platforms you can drop

your high ticket offer like I did with

the Creator MBA because I've been on the

same beating the same drum for so long

and then eventually could probably do

something even higher ticket the reverse

of that is when you don't have a

specific audience when your audience is

relatively generic when you're talking

about things like just general

productivity for example right

productivity in and of itself is a thing

but there are so many different types of

productivity it's it can get so much

more nich on that and so what happens is

you might have a harder time as your

audience grows establishing that exactly

what should that micro offer be when

you're just systems productivity like

what is the micro offer how do you build

that how do you say I'm the exact right

person to solve this very specific

problem for you when what you've been

talking about is Broad right it becomes

much more difficult so I think those

people have a longer path to

monetization but when they get to the

end of that path they might be able to

have a bigger payback so let's take

someone like James clear for example

James Clear made some money on his way

to becoming an author but Atomic habits

was his money maker right yeah it took

him a decade of building a massive

audience around habits which is a pretty

broad topic and then he dropped a five

times New York Times bestseller right

but it probably took him a really long

time to get there whereas other people

along the way might be more gradual in

creating those business business now

caveat to all this there are a course

outliers in both camps those who have

been specific and never been able to

build offers the way up and those who

have been Broad and have built you know

plenty of offers on the way up it's not

a steadfast rule it's not black and

white it is more likely to follow one of

those two paths it does take discipline

to follow the more Narrow Path because

yeah you mostly talking about s

preneurship and I I tend to like just

see random like it's entertaining

to use to head right so like totally I

need to yeah maybe talk to my family

more or something instead of like

talking to random all

people yeah I think like in the end of

the day like there's an example in my

course where I remember I'm actually G

to pull it up because it's a really good

example so just give me a split second

because I want to read to you this thing

that I went through back in the day with

my company so as myself and the CEOs

were building our company we at some

point wanted to in

in SEO for the business because we had

built a a really big sales team we were

getting a ton of lead but it was time

for us to actually go out and like

invest in proper SEO so we went out and

we interviewed a bunch of people and

this is basically what we heard right we

interviewed one young lady and she said

like oh I do SEO for companies and

you're like okay next person was like I

help companies do better SEO you're like

all right sounds about the same I've

been working in SEO for companies like

yours for a decade

all like super generic I do SEO I help

companies with SEO I've been working in

SEO for a decade then we had this guy

come along right and this Dy basically

said something like this we're a

Healthcare Company old school SEO

tactics don't work in the crowd in

healthcare space especially for early

stage companies without a lot of

traction over the last five years I've

built a new approach for healthcare SEO

that lets upand cominging companies

compete with the entrenched Healthcare

businesses at a fraction of the price

now new companies in the space can

compete more quickly and with a smaller

budget is that worth a conversation like

of course right how much more aligned

and relevant can that pitch be than I do

SEO for companies like yours and so the

reason that I share this is because you

can hear the relevance you can hear the

specificity and a 100% of people would

choose to work with that person or bring

that person into interview for the job

and we don't think about that when we're

creating our content when we're building

our Brands we're trying to be

entertaining and get the most lik it's

like no be that guy be the guy who

solves a very specific problem that's

painful for a very specific company or

person yeah it's just a matter it's also

just a matter of putting a little bit

more effort into your Outreach right

it's like he actually did some research

on what you guys did you provide some

value upfront totally but also when

people on social media go to read your

tweets and your profile like they can't

just find funny memes they better find

stuff that's aligned with what you just

pitched right yes that's why creating

content that's specific is important all

right I'll try to make my memes more

specific that's what I'll

try nice um cool I have two more

questions I no there a lot of tech

people when they try to transition to

the solar preneurship path they teach

these like high ticket core courses

right like like there live core courses

that charge $ thousand dollars but like

you're like one of the few careers that

actually made a like these low ticket

courses or like 150 or now

$500 and actually kind of scaled there's

this concept of like selling stuff why

why you sleep but yeah I'm not sure if

that's true or like he chose this path

because it's like more scalable or you

know what are your thoughts on that yeah

I mean couple different

reasons yeah I think I chose this path

first off because like cohort-based

courses were not really a thing when I

started like no one had built Maven like

it just wasn't popular the way that it

was it's popular now or at least you

know more popular so I didn't think of

it as an option number one number two

when I built my first kind of little bit

of my brand I really wanted to decouple

time from earnings I had made money as a

consultant for a year I was working 40h

hour weeks and 50 hour weeks of like

meetings right just like tons and tons

of meetings like the idea of going on

and doing these presentations I didn't

love that so I thought to myself like

can I automate this like if I make this

more affordable is this a win for both

me and the customer and I want to test a

hypothesis that like I can make it cheap

I can make it valuable and the word of

mouth alone would spread a lot about

what I was doing and I Pro that

hypothesis to be right at least for me

again that that may not be right for

everybody but I didn't want to spend the

time I just wanted to decouple time from

revenue makes a lot of sense all right

man last question so let's go back to

our Tech professional Pro profile you

know a lot of people are sitting uh you

a lot of people are saying this pretty

comfortable jobs right they're making

like half a million dollars or something

and and like they have big mortgages and

maybe they send their kid to private

school and what do you have to like do

you have any closing words of advice for

these folks in terms of either

solopreneurship or just like your

previous Life as a tech executive yeah

me yeah yeah I do my goal is not to

convert people I'm not interested in

making solo printers out of people who

aren't interested in doing it or don't

feel comfortable with it that that's

never been my intention my intent is

simply to educate them that there's an

option to show them to lay the options

at their feet and say there are other

ways to make a living so what I would do

is I would encourage them to think

deeply about what gets them motivated as

a person is it working with teams

solving big complex challenges like if

that gets them out of bed in the morning

then awesome stay at the company that's

great like be aware of how companies

work right you should be cognizant

enough to know that in in most people's

career at some point in time they find

themselves on the wrong end of the

layoff all you have to do is be aware of

that right so if you're the kind of

person who likes working with big teams

who likes having built-in vacation who

enjoys having health insurance who you

know likes the the Comfort feeling the

comfortable feeling of a of a

nine-to-five job whether it's

comfortable or not like we could argue

that back and forth like if you like

that feeling have a job at the same time

be smart enough to educate yourself

about how the world is changing how

layoffs are happening and invest a

little bit of time in at least getting a

megaphone every once in a while and

letting people know you exist right like

yeah build out your profiles share your

knowledge because if you do get laid off

and you've built a sizable Network and

people know you for something it's just

so much easier to become reemployed

right it's when people are like I got

laid off and now I want to take LinkedIn

seriously or I want to start writing

Twitter that's the worst time you're

already under a lot of pressure right so

like if you've already done that before

then you're you're in Muk fet situation

if you crave Freedom if you crave

autonomy if you like making decisions on

your own and executing on the decisions

that you've made if your goal was

eventually to be the owner of your time

for you know of course you have

customers and things like that but if

all those things sound like what you

want and you're okay with the risk of

not helping health insurance or having

expensive health insurance not having a

steady income every single day week or

month or quarter right if those things

don't scare you and you like the upside

more than the downside then it might

make sense to at least start dabbling in

that world get out the same thing as the

person St the job get out there make

yourself known share your knowledge

share your skills your expertise all the

unique things that you've learned at

some point in time especially if you get

specific start to experiment can you

monetize a bit and if you can monetize a

bit then you can monetize more and if

you can monetize more you can monetize

for a long period of time so like those

are the ways that I would approach it

but there's no right answer for everyone

it doesn't have to be like a burn the

boast decision right you can just like

correct get yourself out there and then

you can decide what you want to do

eventually yeah burning the boats is the

worst decision that you can make in my

opinion so I would encourage them not to

do that okay uh well I think everyone

already knows this but where can people

find you online they can find me at

Justin w. me that's j s n w

ls. me and they can subscribe to my

newsletter the Saturday soul preneur I

send out one tip you can read in less

than four minutes every Saturday morning

all right Justin thanks so much man I

learned so much from this conversation

cool man great question I appreciate you

having me all right