How Notion Reimagined Productivity Tools | Ivan Zhao

Agent is a buzz word. Agent really

hasn't happened in knowledge work yet.

And notion is one of the few companies in the past five plus years actually been consolidating those contacts and tools. This allow us to build knowledge

tools. This allow us to build knowledge work agents. The difference between your

work agents. The difference between your taste and ability to describe there's a gap and ability to make there's another gap. If you're a software maker you

gap. If you're a software maker you actually know what the bugs are. I know

how things are roughly made. So I can describe it and I know how to fix it.

Computing are just like reading and writing. It's a medium that you can

writing. It's a medium that you can shape. But until recently, computing is

shape. But until recently, computing is by and large the medium that only the programmer class can shape. When I

learned about that idea, that got me to Darn Ocean.

[Music] Welcome to Grit. I'm Juven, partner at Kleiner Perkins, a show where we go beyond the highlight reel and explore the personal and professional challenges

of building history-making companies.

Today on the show, we have Ivan Zhao, co-founder and CEO of Notion, the workspace that reimagines how millions of people organize, collaborate, and build. I would describe Ivan as an

build. I would describe Ivan as an artist of technology, a deep thinker around systems and tools that I think really reflects the conversation that we

had today. Enjoy the episode. You strike

had today. Enjoy the episode. You strike

me as someone that generally does like you look awesome. Like I've seen videos of you before like you always your presentation is very thought thought through.

>> Oh, thank you.

>> So I'm surprised you didn't care.

>> I care but the effort reward probably not worth it.

>> Yeah.

>> Like I'm not fancy. I like fashion but I'm not fancy. Uh like I'm burrito guy.

If someone take me to a like five course Michelin style dinner, I prefer the burrito instead.

>> Why?

>> Um just simpler. Yeah. You know, uh all your food is one place rather than you have to wait for like 3 hours.

>> So it's the time.

>> Time is part of it. I would say um a little bit too subtle the flavor. Maybe

I prefer like simple food in front of you. You can just see everything.

you. You can just see everything.

Uh maybe it's heavier flavor, >> but time is probably the best the biggest difference.

>> It's time for me too. I'm not a Michelin. I like nice food, but I don't

Michelin. I like nice food, but I don't like fancy food.

>> Generally, >> if there's a white tablecloth, >> it's already almost in my mind just too fancy.

>> You can have white tablecloth, but still fun. Like you go to a French restaurant,

fun. Like you go to a French restaurant, white tablecloth, but fairly there could be simple kind, right?

>> That's true. But it sometimes it takes too long. Like usually

too long. Like usually >> like we use white tablecloth at home.

>> My wife Yeah. My wife uh trained me into uh white tablecloth >> at at the dinner table.

>> Yeah, we uh at dinner table we have proper tablecloth. White tablecloth. Uh

proper tablecloth. White tablecloth. Uh

we have we eat proper calories and even we were we don't cook at home but when we wear a Door Dash we put into a proper plates and with proper napkins and eat

on a white tablecloth.

>> What ethnicity is she?

>> She's Iranian.

>> I knew it. I'm I'm

>> Oh, you're Iranian.

>> I knew it.

>> How do you know that?

>> That's such a Persian thing to do.

>> Why? I did.

>> Well, like there's a there is a formality in Persian culture, especially around food.

>> What's your last name?

>> Madagon.

>> Mazardon. Okay.

>> Uh like they're definitely like food is a real ritual in Persian culture, as I'm sure you've now.

>> I actually don't like Persian food that much.

>> No way.

>> That's the joke that we just got married. Uh

married. Uh >> congrats. six months ago. One of the um

>> congrats. six months ago. One of the um joke in the wedding speech we talk about is how much I don't like Persian food and uh and our CTO in and not he's also

Persian too. So that become a company

Persian too. So that become a company joke at this point.

>> So your wife is Persian, your CTO is Persian and you don't like Persian food.

>> I don't. It's a little bit too bland.

They go back to the burrito point, right?

>> The flavors aren't loud enough.

>> Yeah. Like Indian food is like a louder version of Persian food. More flavorful.

There's no spice in Pers There's no nothing spicy in Persian food.

>> Pretty pretty subtle. No.

>> Huh.

>> Yeah.

>> And so, can I revisit the white tablecloth thing?

>> Go for it. Yeah.

>> Was that uh weird for you? Like when she first started putting white tablecloth down on the dinner table?

>> No, she's uh it's like good evolution, right? like I

have to like go from college dorm room to working then now like adoing a little bit and that's a I see that's a step of evolution wasn't too weird like she I

used to be Airbnb person and she she she get me out of Airbnb or become a hotel person then >> everything's come full circle >> kind of yeah well before in college like I'm just Airbnb right so there wasn't a

hotel before that >> yeah when you were cuz you lived in Japan right?

>> Uh for a couple summers. Yeah.

>> Didn't pick up the language.

>> No, Japanese it's uh I wouldn't say necessarily too easy and it wasn't that long a time. Um

um but the the writing system they share a lot of um Chinese uh born race. So share

a lot of writing characters with Chinese and I can read quite a bit like a 20% of the time 30% of the time.

>> Okay. So you roughly get a sense like, oh, what is this book about or what is the menu? Is it a chicken dish or is a

the menu? Is it a chicken dish or is a beef dish? No,

beef dish? No, that's useful.

>> Is your style inspired by any of these cultures?

>> You mean my personal style?

>> Your personal style?

>> No. Uh,

how do I got into clothes?

I was doing a lot of art in college. So

I did um I did science and art. So the

art part you you hang out with art people, fashion and style you part of it. And I during college student budget

it. And I during college student budget buying designer clothes on eBay, right?

Uh yeah.

And it just stuck maybe. Do people at work also think like, oh yeah, Ivan dress is pretty cool?

>> They do. People do. Yeah. And people

also know that I'm a burrito person. So

>> it's I don't think it's a contradictory.

>> What do you mean?

>> Well, you could care about style, but you also you also simp you could also be simple at the same time, right? You

don't have to be you care about style and fashion, but necessarily means you're um you like five course dinner. I

have heard you can tell me if this is true or not. I can't remember. Did I

read it somewhere?

You were you went to a meeting? I don't

know if it was with a VC or somebody and you started like feeling the table like uh like like is that true?

>> It's true. Yeah. I think I was from um uh Danny Fernandez. He was at the Slack back then. Uh

back then. Uh >> at Slack >> and he became he went to Sequoa later.

She went to Sequoa. I I think I was commenting on their new office. Slack

new office.

And what like you actually felt?

>> Well, you pay attention to the to the surrounding, right? Uh I like to touch

surrounding, right? Uh I like to touch things. So if it's a fabric, I sometimes

things. So if it's a fabric, I sometimes I just like to touch it, understand it.

And here you can tell, okay, this is laminated. So

laminated. So uh it's okay table.

>> Not the fanciest.

>> It doesn't need to be fancy, but it could be >> oak.

>> It could be wood, right? Proper wood

will be make a difference.

>> Yeah. Um

>> we need a new table.

>> Probably need a new table. Little bit

dark here. Little dark.

>> I like the dark.

>> Could be dark but not gray. I wouldn't

say I guess clim probably grayish color.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, it's actually funny. I was

thinking like I can't remember the last time I ever wondered before a guest walked in what the guest would think of

the room until you were about to walk in and I thought, I bet you Ivan's going to like judge what the room feels like.

stretching a little bit, but it doesn't matter. Let me turn off my phone. Yeah,

matter. Let me turn off my phone. Yeah,

>> that's fine. Born in tech, so >> that's right.

>> Yeah. When you walk into your office, the notion office, it's right here, right downtown.

>> We just moved like a month ago, two months ago. Yeah.

months ago. Yeah.

>> When you walk into that office, do you have the same judgment?

>> Um, I do. It's still work in progress.

And I would say we're in the middle of renovating it.

It's more polished than I would like.

There's more gloss than the quality is higher than I would like for it to be or at least the glossy level.

>> What do you mean? Give me an example. Um

what the wood if you if you go to come to our office we um it's like an I'm going after a 19

early 1900 craftsman style a lot of wood and there's a wood paneling wings coating up to this high and there's little shelves coming out. You can put

play, you can put books, you can put um interesting things on top. So, feels

like not typical like a um tech office and the wood material it's shinier than I would like. back then the wood it doesn't it's doesn't it wasn't that

shine as today's wood but it wasn't has so much premier right so uh that's a difference and it's another difference is like I prefer things to live in a

little bit so feels like a little more low-key if you have a too I believe you have too good office your business go down because you're not focused on the right thing right so the feeling that

the office should be lived in should be malible you can you should be able to move things around you don't take the office space too seriously even so that the materials are honest. Um the vibe is

good. Um

good. Um yeah.

>> So can I play this forward a little bit?

>> Go for it.

>> You have all these observations about the office. It's a new office. It's not

the office. It's a new office. It's not

to your It's not exactly what you want.

>> We are renovating it. So it's our responsibility, >> right? But like are people in the

>> right? But like are people in the company that are responsible for this not like how is Ivan care like does he not have

other things to care about right now?

Like how is he commenting on the specificity of the veneer of this piece of wood?

>> Well, first of all, I was the one picked the wood initially. So I think there's a difference between production and sample, right? Um and people do know I

sample, right? Um and people do know I care a lot about this and uh it doesn't take too much of my time. This is

something I can make judgment just like a walking here. I can make it doesn't take you too much time whether you for you to decide whether you like a bar when you're walking or not.

>> Right? So doing judgment of choice of materials take that amount of time for me. So,

and at some point I can't help it. It's

just like you can't if there's a loud noise, you can't help but to hear it. If

there's aesthetically not a great environment, but you can't help but to see it. And but when you make the room good, people feel it, right? Most people before they join

right? Most people before they join Ocean, we try to invite candidates and work from our office or come to our office, meet more people in person and

often time that's one of the no the selling feature for joining a company because people do see we do care so much about a lot of details, a lot of craft including our people, including our

environment and if the wood doesn't get fixed >> does it drive you nuts? You know, I'll just get used to it. I think it's too

late to fix it. So, because we already put out the wood on three floors, that's going to cost a lot and takes a lot of time. So,

time. So, >> so you can just move on past that.

>> Yeah.

>> It won't drive you nuts.

>> I'm pretty pragmatic.

>> Okay.

and in the product in the notion because the notion product itself is uh I don't know there's got to be awards

that you've gotten for design and beauty and aesthetics like it's it's well it's it is the defining feature of the product in my opinion is in many ways

it's it's a beautiful it's a beautiful product it's beautiful software are you even more attentive >> in software

Probably yes. Uh I probably I'm good at

Probably yes. Uh I probably I'm good at picking up bugs like like when things off a little bit I can sense it. I feel

it. Um right before taking the car here I was uh filing a bug about when you're typing in the title of a page. It's a

little bit laggier than when you're typing in the body.

Um it's so just it's common because when you're typing a title, the title probably need to render into different many different places in notion. So you

trigger more rendering somewhere.

Therefore laggier than when you're typing in the body of the page, right?

Uh and there are probably like couple hundred millisecond difference. But when

you just use the product every day, you live in it just like you live in office.

You notice those things. If like in a bizarro world some random great CEO came in off the street and was using the product knew it do you think they would

be able to feel in the way that a founder does in aggregate people can feel may they might not be able to articulate just

like when you walk in the nice room you'll be able to feel you like a bar when walking when you like into a restaurant you like the ambient but you cannot why you like it, right? The

difference between your taste and ability to describe, there's a gap and ability to make, there's another gap.

So, I would say if you're a software maker, uh you actually know what the bugs are. Like I know, oh, probably

bugs are. Like I know, oh, probably because in the title you're going to render in more places, therefore that caused the bug. I know how things are roughly made, so I can describe it and I

can hopefully know how to fix it. Um,

for furniture, like for office, you probably know it feels great, but you don't know why. But if you pay attention to interior, through architecture, you can tell the why, right? But I cannot

make furniture. I'm not a furniture

make furniture. I'm not a furniture maker, but I can sort of tell which style I like, why I like it, which style I want my office to feel like. Is there

a world where, going back to your burrito comment, maybe like you need some form of deep simplicity when everything else is so consuming for you?

Like when you think about such depth of detail about the world, whether it's your company, the physical spaces that you occupy. H,

>> that's a good point. I never thought that way.

>> Yeah, you have to make some tradeoffs.

Food is the place I like.

I like food, but I'm not very like fancy fancy foodie.

>> Yeah.

>> What else do I make trade-offs? Um,

food is definitely one. At the same time, it's not everything is like you mentioned notion care about craft. We're

pretty pragmatic. We're not a 10 out of 10. Like we are probably a seven out of

10. Like we are probably a seven out of 10. 6.5, seven out of 10. And I'm happy

10. 6.5, seven out of 10. And I'm happy with that. Like happy zone for me

with that. Like happy zone for me probably is 7.5. But if you push that too far, at least I believe if you push that too far, you're optimizing too much for the craft

and maybe beauty, but not enough for the business and utility. So there's a balance here.

Is that balance scientific or is it all taste?

>> Well, scientific are going to reflecting your revenue and growth. Yeah.

>> Right. Um,

and the taste part is more personal.

Like >> you just I wouldn't be proud putting something that's know one out of 10 in terms of craft and detail, but great

business. Um,

business. Um, yes, the notion like there's a balance there, right? I

wanted to put out something I'm proud of. Are there other maybe just using

of. Are there other maybe just using this framing that I just came up with on the simplicity around food, do you have

other areas of life that maybe you've never thought about it this way, but that counterbalance

some of these other things.

Like I'm not a super organized person by default. Like I'm very detailed person

default. Like I'm very detailed person but I prefer not to do the organization.

>> Give me an example >> like the way I use notion myself. People

must think I have a very elaborate database relate to the other database that track all everything. I'm just a one page of the check boxes right I'm

not a productivity person. Uh

yeah, let's uh keep things rather. I

still use notebook, paper, notebooks to write down things, but it's not in the most organized way. Um

that's one example.

>> Are there companies other software that you think when you use them that they deeply care

about craft? Yeah, there are there are

about craft? Yeah, there are there are ones that better than notion.

I would say uh linear is a good one. The issue

tracking, bug tracking for engineer product. Um

product. Um it's pretty specific in terms of use cases, but they put a lot of they care a lot of detail. Care a lot of detail,

right? It's fast. Uh it feels good. No.

right? It's fast. Uh it feels good. No.

Um the vintage Apple definitely it's like the OS of Apple the phone is

still one of the best crafted detailed product even still is um I think it's becomes really tricky when you have to take care of a large surface

area and having high craft it's easier to create a jewelries like designer love to mention this to-do app called things. It's like a German

made to-do app that can only do like 10 features in the product. Not a lot, but everything feels great, right? Uh,

relatively speaking, it's easier to build that then build something much more complex like a notion, like a linear, which is much larger surface area to take care of. So, how do you

make that trade-off? It's really tricky.

>> I'm curious, and not because I play for the home team, but like where would you put Figma in that spectrum? Because in

many ways Figma's scope continues to increase.

>> Yeah, I would say Figma similar to notion. So maybe like if notion is like a seven 6.5,

Figma is probably a seven. I will put linear in terms of craft on like 8.5.

Figma has a lot of scope.

>> Yeah. uh the surface area keep expanding with the new products but I think Dylan and the team will have sim have a similar trade-off problem right that you need to ship features you need to

refactor your features uh it's a lot of surface area versus just make everything really detailed delightful um yeah if you go on design Twitter there's

endless complaints how can you make it better and do you think that it's just like a natural evolution of life where If notion is still around in 50 years,

it will just be uglier.

>> Entropy erodess everything including software. Uh

software. Uh like if you open like one of the most one of the most used ubiquitous living software is probably Microsoft

Word, right? If you open on the Windows

Word, right? If you open on the Windows version, there's just so much in there.

there's a layers of layers of functionality and people's needs and wants packed into that thing, right? Um

there's almost so much you can do with it. So reset is very necessary.

it. So reset is very necessary.

If you don't reset, it's really hard to build something that's simple, shrink the surface area, then still provide a utility

and still provide high craft. Otherwise,

you probably increase your surface area tube. Continue to provide feature and

tube. Continue to provide feature and utility. You drop your craft. Something

utility. You drop your craft. Something

like that.

Yeah, it's tricky.

>> It's very tricky.

>> Yeah.

>> Probably why there aren't that many companies that you would put in the pantheon of >> We look up to hardware. We look up to So, in if you come to our notion office,

our conference room are named after physical tools.

So, um, iPhones being one of them, one of the greats, right? Um,

uh, the the original BMW 3 series, right? um um Toshiba rice cookers, Sony

right? um um Toshiba rice cookers, Sony transistor radio, Singer sewing machines

um like those tools they at least the class of those tools last decades sometimes 100 plus years and they they don't change their form factor too much

because they really find something that really works for people and like Toshiba rice cooker change 100 million plus people how do they eat rice every day right so transistor video they figure out how to shrink transistor into

something small so they can provide portable sound for people in the late 50s and 60s.

No, it's the same thing. They figure out Walkman is same story. So like figure out interesting tradeoffs with the new material and create a form factor and

usually that form factor can last two decades, three decade, no five decades sometimes.

>> Do you think you're born with a certain taste or do you think taste is learned?

Meaning I'll give you a specific example like if someone joined notion 10 years ago would they have a similar taste to you 10 years later?

>> They're a designer at notion been working there like four or five years they pick up we pick up similar things like like uh notion design team looks

like we all many of us like La Mer's clothes like um pick up similar fashion you influence that that osmosis. I like that word a lot.

>> So definitely can be learned.

>> Uh how fast you're learning depends on probably on you and the culture, >> right? Um how much is born?

>> right? Um how much is born?

Like when you were a kid, would your parents have described you as having taste?

>> I was born and raised in China. Not much

taste there. Yeah. Uh,

I think I wanted to not wanted to be I know I'm a little bit different growing up like I play sports. Um, I was good with cl good with school and >> or not.

>> Yes. Doing both.

>> You were good at school and sports.

>> Yes. Uh, and do a lot of different things outside the classrooms. Right.

So, um, but I wouldn't say I had aesthetic growing up. I did a lot of watercolor paintings. I did Chinese

watercolor paintings. I did Chinese calligraphy but was not like fashionably dressed or something right.

>> Uh and after moving to Canada when I was 17 and uh at first I realized my I don't know the language so I need to really soak up

like you you learn how to read and write English in China but you did not learn how to speak or understand the context.

So I have to watch a lot of TV to uh understand the context like Spongebobs and Simpsons. That's one. Great.

and Simpsons. That's one. Great.

>> Once you understand the joke, you truly understand the language and the culture.

So language number one. And another

realization is like I don't know much about the western culture.

>> So um there is this book called allmusic.com or something. He have all the ranking of

or something. He have all the ranking of class good albums throughout like past maybe 100 years. So I just went down this book and all the fivestar rating albums I just find them on the internet

and listen to them. Not all of them but many of them going through the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Eric Claptons of the world from classic rock to uh different jazz uh uh

>> to understand culture, American culture, >> understand music. So I went down this list of the past many decades music all the five star read many of the five star

rating albums did that um my first year college roommates was uh she really into jazz she actually proper

me introduced me into jazz so I did did the same thing for jazz albums um uh I also had a roommate she's a film major

film study major so we went down all the criterion collection the movies. So do

all the in some sense like a pre-training for yourself going through all the great in ter music and movies. Uh movies actually give you a lot of aesthetics like

because you can watch how people dress, how they behave, the details, the architecture.

Uh I I was doing photography at the time.

So learning a lot of how to take photos from movies and pick up a lot of your word aesthetic stuff from movies.

So those are roughly my pre-trains for aesthetic side of things.

>> When did you come states side?

>> Uh 12 years ago. 13 years ago. 12 years.

Yeah.

>> How old were you? So you did college in the in >> in Canada.

>> In Canada. And then you came after that.

>> Uh yes. Uh so couple years high school college. I at UBCU in Vancouver. So my

college. I at UBCU in Vancouver. So my

mom took me to Vancouver. Then the um last year of college wanted to start uh notion essentially. Didn't know what

notion essentially. Didn't know what it's called back then. Not exactly the same product but idea is the same. And

uh in order to move down here because I'm Canadian I need to figure out my visa. So I work at a company um for

visa. So I work at a company um for about a year and a half.

>> Inkling.

>> Inkling. And uh

>> Matt McKinnis's company.

>> Yes. Uh he's my first boss. My only

boss, >> Mckinn.

>> McKinnus.

>> Quite the first boss to have.

>> Yeah. His first check into notion, too.

>> You're kidding me.

>> Yeah. I was telling him like, hey, I'm like >> McKinnis, for those that don't know, is the now COO of >> replay, right? So, um before he started a company called Inkling, which is about

um publishing, desktop publishing. And

um cuz uh last year college I was sort of like okay I want to start a company and I want to move to the United States cuz this is where people start companies. I put my portfolio under

companies. I put my portfolio under Hacker News and a lot of people reached out including Matt and uh uh and I came down here interview a bunch

of companies decided to join Matt because uh inkling because it's the closest to notion and I also tell him like told him hey I want I'll work here

for a year or two figure out my visa and I'll start my own and uh he's very supportive actually he put on the first check into notion. He introduced me to

all the investor connections like make you really understand how Silicon Valley works to people just pay it forward.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> And you told him when you were moving here, hey, I have this idea of this company.

Wasn't called notion, but it was in the general direction of what you thought the company would be. You thought

Inkling was the closest one of the closest comparisons that you could find to what that business was doing to what you wanted to do and you said, "Hey, I'm going to do a tour of duty here and then

I'm going to go start notion."

>> I wouldn't call tour duty. I'm It's like I'm trying to figure out my visa here.

It's harder to raise money than harder to figure out the visas than to raise money. Uh yeah. So I figure took me a

money. Uh yeah. So I figure took me a while to write a business plan. a a fake business plan to get the visa.

But then eventually I did then he helped me to start a company.

>> And during that time that year and a half, how was your English at that point?

>> Oh, it's fine. Yeah.

>> Did you not consider staying at Inkling? Like did you not think, okay, now that I've seen Inkling, there's all these other companies that are interesting. I'm meeting all these

are interesting. I'm meeting all these cool people that are doing other things.

like it's it strikes me as a little bit strong willed to move from China, not speaking English, learn our culture

through movies and music basically and then your friends that you met there and then basically put your flag in the ground

that you're going to start this company and then stick to your word that you're going to whose inkling basically is a way to get your visa and then see that

through.

Yeah. You weren't tempted to deviate from the plan. I mean, how often does

the plan. I mean, how often does somebody have a plan? They just it turns into reality.

Um, but the intention is never to join a company or start a company. The

intention to build a thing that doesn't quite exist, right? That's the intent and only only

right? That's the intent and only only way to do it to start your company to build it.

>> And what were you using in I guess college that made you feel like there needs to be more?

>> The one that really inspired me was um

discover the early ideas of computing like where this industry came from.

Most people don't know. Most people

working in tech they don't know where tech come modern tech come from. Modern

tech come from um this group of people the hippie generation 60s7s not far from here on the west coast San Francisco Stanford area those are the people who

took drugs assets and know that same generation apply the same thinking to uh this device we call computing.

So back in the context computers computings are roomsiz calculators.

There are people are now don't don't use much beyond calculating taxes or even before that ballistic missile trajectories that's what it's used for. And this

hippie generation say wait a second if you just put a monitor in front of those roomsiz computers which back then it only printing out papers right back and forth there's no displays there's not

interactive you can create a new medium out of this you can make this thing be interactive and that's why this mouse was invented

in that generation and that created this computing industry this like multi- tens of trillion dollar

industry that drives the world today. It

wasn't like that, right? And and

so this is our industry. Most people

don't know the history of it. And even

even fewer people understand the intent of that. The original generation's

of that. The original generation's intent. Their intent was computing are

intent. Their intent was computing are just like reading and writing. It's a

medium that we can pick up.

We can shape it just like you can write out your English sentences. You can

freeze it however you like. Some really

good people can be a poet. Some people

can be a novelist or you can use for business work. It's a medium that you

business work. It's a medium that you can shape.

Computing could be a medium that everyone can shape too.

And um but today by and large we're in AI era.

So the the story changed a little bit in the past few years but until recently computing is by and large the medium that only the programmer class can shape

almost programmers are kind of like the scribes of the modern era only few people can read and write.

So that's not original intent. The

intent of the 60s7s generation is computing software is a medium everybody can shape and create whatever tools they need to do solve whatever problem they

want just like you can use English to for all kinds of purposes. Um when I learned about that idea, I remember reading those early papers by people

like Alan K who was invented one of the inventor of the first personal computers or Douglas Anglebar who was more famous for inventing the mouse but his intent

is actually the purest um realized this is the most one of the most powerful things yet to be realized and I want to build a product company whatever that is

to work on this idea. um that got me to want to move to Silicon Valley um to start Ocean.

It's kind of like uh Steve Jobs is part of that generation and you know when his daughter first writes Lisa on the Mac

and he goes he gets delighted because she's expressing what he wants the computer to do which is that a little girl can write her name

I guess with a mouse >> probably. Yeah. From the movie or

>> probably. Yeah. From the movie or something.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. the the Macintosh and the Lisa before that was it's one of the first graphic user interface based computers for mass market and the idea come from

uh Steve Jobs almost 10 years ago before that visit Xerox Park a lot of the people I described Anglebar Alen K they are they those people work at park at

that time not angle but Alen K's people and when Steve Jobs saw it they said wow computer should be interactive computer should be graphic based, right? So he

took a lot of this idea and want to create Macintosh or creating Lisa with um but even he admit he did not copy the whole thing.

So the famous story is they show him three things. Um first is graphic user

three things. Um first is graphic user interface. He think that's the best

interface. He think that's the best thing ever invented. He also he saw that and took them. He they show him networking computer park computer

network together. Maybe there's like

network together. Maybe there's like dozens or low hundreds of them together.

He didn't see that. So Macintosh was standalone floppy drive.

The most I would say nuance one is object or environment.

He didn't see that too. That's the

intent I was expressing earlier is allow computer to be like Lego like object- like people can take apart put it put it back together without being programmers

he didn't see that one so in a sense Steve Jobs and Bill Gates generation popularized computer by putting PC on every desk at home but they lock

computing lock software into this application prison that's is easier for people to understand in some ways but a lot more rigid cap the ceiling of how

far you can go with your software. So

that created a dual class of application software makers which are programmers and application users which are the rest of us.

>> And do you think you mentioned three years ago with the AI stuff things have changed? Do you think now

changed? Do you think now we're going back to the original essence of what the hippies would have wanted, which is,

you know, like I am in whatever replet lovable building stuff in natural language.

>> It's hard to say that's the 6070 generation original intent.

It's it's um >> Well, do you think we've gone back to the accessibility that that that the industry was intended

to that it was striving for technically?

Yes, it opens more like more people can vibe coding and I think it's more important to think I think it's more profound than that. I

think and I don't think anybody sort of know the right answer. What I mean by that is we always have an interesting relationship with the tools and medium

we use. So um in the in right now we're

we use. So um in the in right now we're in this transition from one major medium of the classic computing to this new medium of this more squishy more

language model based more AI based computing. We're in the right in the

computing. We're in the right in the middle of this and and you when you do this medium transition, you sort of people tend to use the new medium like

the old media. Let me give you a couple examples like um when TV just happened people are sitting on the television do

radio's speech right treated like uh the old medium radio when um telephone just happened which replaced telegram people initially only use telephone as a very

parsimmonious short speeches notes right just transmitting informations like they don't do gossip they don't chitchat with their friends they put a telephone in a very formal place in their house that if

someone rang the telephone at night time someone died right it's a very formal right um when car just invented people don't know what to do with it put a flag that someone with a flag in front of

card right it's a very we tend to use the old medium like the old media tend to use the new medium like the old medium in the beginning I think we're in

the same phase with AI like if you put together net side by side charges UI next to a Google UI. It's kind of

similar search box and give you some answers, right? Um, but there's way more

answers, right? Um, but there's way more you can do with the language model with AI. We just haven't fully figured out

AI. We just haven't fully figured out how yet. And the best way we can do that

how yet. And the best way we can do that is through the lens of the old medium.

Uh, which is generating the answer or generating the code your knowgen examples. um maybe take us half a decade

examples. um maybe take us half a decade a decade to figure out how to use this but we're in this interesting transition point and I think

this language model started AI medium it's probably as revolutionary as the computing medium so my guess has a different question and

answers that the original computing pioneers were thinking about with the computing media What that if that that is I don't know but I feels they're

close to same order magnitude and they're different.

>> I remember when the public cloud first came about.

That was the industry that I was in my whole career until I I joined Kleiner.

And in the beginning it was the same feeling of oh my god like look at all the advantages that we can get as a business right you're not

racking and stacking servers and data centers but everybody was porting their pre-existing applications with all of

those dependencies and trying to shove them into AWS and you know like it took years But eventually folks kind of realized, oh,

we need to rewrite these things from the ground up. And then there's an entire

ground up. And then there's an entire ecosystem built around that that needs to to be born.

And you know I think if you if you believe that in this analogy and maybe that pole of technology is even stronger in this case

I also think that's probably why on the one hand there is like more entrepreneurship and excitement about starting new companies and on the other

hand there is more fear that you're going to be one of those old applications that's about to be rewritten Because fundamentally all of

your dependencies are a native or a foreign language to what's happening moving forward.

>> Yeah. The entire chessboard is redrawn, right? The ingredients

right? The ingredients we used to build tools, there's a brand new alien type of ingredient type of wood show up our doorstep. Everybody

trying to figure out what to do with it.

Right. That's the exciting part. Is it

exciting for you or is it nerve-wracking?

Meaning, if the world continued to exist three years ago in the same way that it did, there wouldn't be an existential risk for notion

of somebody building the entire stack from the ground up.

Now, I think the question for you, like any incumbent, which is weird to think of you as an incumbent, but nonetheless an

incumbent in this era, can you refactor yourself? Do you need to, if you did,

yourself? Do you need to, if you did, what would that look like? The existing

UX paradigms that you've been building on, do those need to change?

>> I think a lot of things will change, but probably most thing will change. And the

question different company will answer this question differently. I would say notion classic SAS vertical SAS company will answer this question very differently from let's say like us

notion because our starting position our intent is very different from just vertical cloud-based SAS companies. So

maybe think about what's our strategy right because we were inspired by early computing pioneers. We want to make

computing pioneers. We want to make software malleable and tinkerable for end users. In the past five six years,

end users. In the past five six years, we've been consolidating different vertical SAS into one tools.

So start with document editing knowledge project management most those Lego blocks for knowledge work we're taking them out one by one and putting into notion.

So did and most recently calendar and mail right. So by and large we have most

mail right. So by and large we have most the knowledge uh software building blocks for SAS. So our SAS error strategy is consolidating those tools into one platform.

And there turned out this is really good for AI because AI needs the context and tools to be together.

We've been spent five plus years consolidating this onto one place. Now

allow us to build automated not no longer just providing tools for our customer but automate the work for our customer providing those building block in the form of knowledge work agents

actually do the work for them right so if you think about this like the agent is a buzz word agent happens essentially software that do work for you right

agent happened first in customer support vertical and most recently in last year we're will happen in coding vertical agent

really hasn't happened in knowledge work yet. Why is that? Right? Because the

yet. Why is that? Right? Because the

tools and context for knowledge work are really spread out.

Tools and context for coding is actually if you think about it fairly self-contained, right? Most for coding

self-contained, right? Most for coding agents all the contexts are in the GitHub repos in one place. plain text

file easy to read and write and the tools it needs to use are reading and writing those files so it's very self-contained so easier to create coding agents extremely difficult to

create knowledge work agent because knowledge work today are those a dozen different tasks that you and me do across a dozen different apps and notion is one of the few companies

in the past five plus years actually been consolidating those contacts and tools right and So you no longer need to like go to different places to do the different things all the Lego blocks in

one place. This allow us to build

one place. This allow us to build knowledge work agents and this is what we're working on right now and give us a quite a good head start

but then they have to be bought in to the notion ecosystem end to end otherwise the agent will probably struggle to hop out of the documents

that it can't see. No, not necessarily like we have um we work with external contacts too, right? Which last month we just launched our enterprise search

product. So ran on notion integrate with

product. So ran on notion integrate with 10 plus different external contacts from the Google stack to Microsoft stack, Alassian stacks, right? We work across all of them. You can search across them

and you can aggregate and do knowledge work across all of them. And when you think about the organization of your

company relative to the product that you want to deliver, has your thinking evolved over the last few years around the organization of the company?

>> I think many organization need to like how to build AI products is fundamentally different from building classic software. The analogy I like to

classic software. The analogy I like to use it's it's more like um it's more akin to brewing beer and building bridges.

The classic software it's you sort of can engineer anything you can imagine right so like the how do people build software in the past 20

years you either do the white combinator style follow your customers or you can do the Steve Job style you have a vision you don't listen to customer because you know better right the both start with

some kind of end then you spec out what the design is and engineer build it language model actually work differently you cannot build everything you can imagine

often time take you 70 80% there and never close that gap of remaining 20%.

We actually learned this the hard lesson right we we try to build a knowledge work agent a year and a half ago we with all the ingredients are there on the notion Lego side but the language model

doesn't fully the model wasn't fully ready you can't really force it right so it's more like brewing beer that you have to create the right envir environment just channel the east to let

them do their work and this changes the sequence of how the the software development process in a sense so you have to experiment a lot. You put design

engineer side by side together and with the data with the right context and just keep trying things and see what sticks versus the old way is more like waterfallish from your vision or

customer need work backwards and I think it took took us a while to realize this. I think many other company

realize this. I think many other company are also realizing this even larger company like it's really hard for them to once the company gets large hard to

shift this way of building software and with the beer analogy I actually really like that the beer versus the bridge if you're brewing beer what you're

basically saying is look there's some ingredients that go into this they're not ever exactly the same and then or maybe they are and then what comes comes

out is a slightly tasting different tasting beer. Is that what you mean by

tasting beer. Is that what you mean by the beer analogy? Beer analogy that means it's organic. Therefore, you don't fully control it. You cannot tell the east, hey east, please taste that way.

Right? You cannot force it. You have to channel the model. The wisdom and capabilities is inside this model.

Sometimes it does can build the thing in your head. Sometimes it doesn't. But the

your head. Sometimes it doesn't. But the

best thing you can do is just try and see if the channel you can channel towards it. You cannot force it. Versus

towards it. You cannot force it. Versus

classic way of building software, you can pretty much build anything in your Figma file. Maybe it take three months,

Figma file. Maybe it take three months, might take six months, but you can get there.

For beer, you might never get there.

That's why if you go on Twitter, there's so many cool demos, but that now harder to find real product because to be a real product, you need to close the gap

of remaining 20 30%. That's the biggest difference. Is there a world where

difference. Is there a world where you're right, we've done some of the lower hanging fruit use cases today, coding, customer success.

Is there a world where we're overestimating in the near term moving into some of these other periphery agentic like systems that we

would like to automate is just going to take longer and it's going to be harder than what we thought probably um

like who did like Andre Kaparthi talk about he saw self-driving car 10 years ago right took 10 years to go

through all the corner cases and system bureaucracy or human bureaucracy to get there. Um likely will be in the same not

there. Um likely will be in the same not likely but very likely will be similar with knowledge work agents. Um

but when you play with this language model the underlying capability you know is it's just so powerful. It's so

different. It's a there's a human in there.

It can do more and more of the things than we do.

And uh then it's trying to figure out the the tooling around it, the stack around it, how to unleash this capability. And then there's the

capability. And then there's the organizational side of thing, go to market side of thing. How do you help your customer to understand it so they can adopt it? They can evolve their organization for it. And that probably

even slower, right? But you know that the nucleus of this, the capability is there. And the capability, the funny

there. And the capability, the funny thing is the capability gets better every three-ish month. doesn't see no chance to stop. It's pretty interesting.

>> What do you mean there's a human in there?

>> I think this is the largest shift for all software company like a SAS cloud software company. It's transitioning

software company. It's transitioning from selling tools to facilitate work to providing the work itself.

The tools is providing the tools for other person to use to do some business need.

But now language model is have more and more of a human capability to reason to think to understand right through largely through text.

So software company what they can do is to not only providing the tools but providing the human sitting behind the tool as a package.

You sort of see this in customer support, right? It's no longer just make

support, right? It's no longer just make your support agents more efficient. It's

actually doing the support.

You see this in um coding agents, right?

It's no longer just like IDE to help your developer tap completion but actually to for provide a final output.

We haven't seen this for knowledge work yet. We haven't seen for many other

yet. We haven't seen for many other sector of knowledge work yet but we're going to see the more and more of them.

um like we're building product for this right like last you can see early shape of this last month we launched three AI product enterprise search is one of the

thing I mentioned right it's pretty baby hop pretty straightforward you don't have to find read 20 articles to find the answer to generate answer for you um

research so you don't have to synthesize and write a report you draft a report based on all your internal content and data right used to something can take you hours now you can download in five

minutes that's another baby half of knowledge work and the third one is a meeting notes right you don't have to be typed all the meeting notes now piece

together the notion legos of calendar and documents and with some AI Lego of transcription and summary you can have the notes better than any human can

write so those are some of the most fundamental knowledge work chunks that used to take people a lot of effort Now AI can do this not provide not only

providing the tool but providing the work that human used to do.

>> And those three products, how much easier did it feel for you to build those three products in the last year than it would

previously have to build just to build the product?

>> I would say um it's definitely a huge advantage going back to your question.

How is notion positioned in this? Right?

Because using the meeting notes as example, we build a product in two months because we already have the building blocks for this. We have a collab collaborative document surface

area. That's one of the best building

area. That's one of the best building blocks. We have a calendar product so we

blocks. We have a calendar product so we know your meetings when you should start meeting push notification on that.

That's another building blocks we have.

Right? Um now we can bring in the building block of uh AI transcription and AI summary. Those four building blocks together allow us to ship um one of the best-in-class AD meeting notes

product under two month because we already have this and we have your context. So all your knowledge the rest

context. So all your knowledge the rest of your company knowledge also lives in notion and this and work with enterprise search after you finish the meeting or during your meetings you can ask questions where hey what's the someone

so and so talk about in previous meeting you can do that again compounding right we can consolidate tools so in the SAS era we consolidate tools so uh their

company could be more productive like comp customers like one a good example recently ramp fully move on to notion we reduce their tooling cost by 70%.

And but most importantly, it's not just the cost of the tools. The company can ship things much faster. Imagine each

employee at RAMP has those three four AI agents out of the box. All work

seamlessly with the rest notion and res employee. That's a lot of productivity

employee. That's a lot of productivity gain, right? That's still a SAS era

gain, right? That's still a SAS era value proposition. Reducing tool cost

value proposition. Reducing tool cost and increase productivity. AI even in my opinion dialed us this up even more because language model wants the context

and tools to be together.

It's no longer just human business buyer prefer this. The model itself we keep

prefer this. The model itself we keep hearing the term context window context window because language model want the context to be together so they can start thinking and problem solving for you

together. Right? So if you the context

together. Right? So if you the context is fragmented like the SAS era it's like it sort of works because human is the glue right you go to your slack read

some snippet messages go to your notion go to your Google docs go to your jura and go to your email back and forth all the context is stored in your brain it's really hard for AI to do that right

human barely get it to work so it's so if anything AI prefer the context to to be together tools to be together and we have the context and tools together of

one of the few platform out there can do this. That's why I'm saying we're quite

this. That's why I'm saying we're quite well positioned to build the knowledge organation that yet to exist.

>> Mhm. As you think about moving into this really next era of notion, would you agree it feels like a completely different step function moment in time

for the company to move through?

Like in the early days of the company, correct me if I'm wrong, but you were searching for product market fit for years, >> four or five years.

>> Four or five years. You hired a team, then you had to fire the team, then you and your co-founder move to Japan, which I guess everything comes full

circle as you go back to Japan with an eye patch. Um, is then you go whole up

eye patch. Um, is then you go whole up for a year in an apartment. A year? Is

it a year >> rebuilding this? Yeah.

>> Um, maybe two years. Two years. You two,

three of you, two or three of you, >> two of us >> are holed up in an apartment in Japan for two years.

>> Two, we hold up for two years. We've

been traveling where we spend the two summers in Japan. Back to SF >> and that was to get from one version of

the product which was maybe crappy, not good enough, wasn't getting adoption to what then became notion, right? Mhm.

right? Mhm.

>> I don't know. Like do you uh when you went back to Japan, did you feel like do I need to do that again? Like do I do

I need to how do I find clarity?

Especially now when you know like you raised at whatever $10 billion like you have how many like thousands of employees?

>> No. So close to a thousand.

>> A thousand employees. Yeah. there's like

there's more to lose now. How do you I don't know. Do do you think about like uh what it takes to maybe reunderwite

all of your mental models?

>> It's funny cuz I just got back from Japan and um one of the Nintendo trip was um we had an event with the mayor of Kyoto.

>> Cool.

>> Yeah. Kyoto was the city that Sam and I spent two summers in and um and Kyoto mayor heard about our story. So uh so

the setup tech conference then we did a fireside chat with the mayor and I will talk about how much is a full story come back to Kyoto. If you ask me one day I'll be meeting the mayor and talk about

that story I would say wow that would be crazy but here we are right uh in a sense the same question for the I would say the entire software industry like the the chess board is different

and material is really different um the SAS area is in some sense very boring very steady right you you figure out your product market fit you figure out your go to market

hire our sales team done AI era it's there's a lot of fog of war and that make the game a lot more fun, a lot more exciting. You have you can go all the

exciting. You have you can go all the dimension. Nobody know what the right

dimension. Nobody know what the right answer is. Um I think we're in that

answer is. Um I think we're in that position and we have one of the most unique hand of cars because what we did in the SAS era by consolidating

>> and allow us to do something really unique like we just talked about and uh it's re revoring for myself in a sense to think about like what you can build

with this all the Legos in the SAS era and this new type of Legos as AI.

It's almost like how long have you been building ocean for?

>> 10 plus years.

>> Like uh you probably can't admit this to me, but like you know pre AI you're 8 years in.

It's a slog. Like 8 years of doing anything basically your entire adult life.

You're probably tired. Like to your point like it was kind of boring. and

you've been doing the same thing in a less dynamic game for a really long time.

I it I wonder for a lot of founders that have been doing what you've been doing for the in the SAS era for as long as they have for some they'll probably pack

up and go home but for others maybe it's like a you know I wonder if it breathes new life into you like it it it gives you

notion is one of the we built one of the first no application for AI product and we got this convictions pretty

interesting because um Sam and I were friends with OpenAI folks and we got early access GPD4 and that was late 2022

and what we saw is like the world will be very different. There's a human packaged inside of this and we actually lock oursel into a hotel room in Mexico and for a week and a half build the

first version of AI product and we actually launched a month before CHAGPT happened. So because this is like when

happened. So because this is like when you build things when the ingredient changes there's just so much excitement like what new thing can you build with this right there's a lot of things become really was really

hard impossible before what you never thought about that before now you can't think about that way that's a lot of fulfillment for people who build tools >> so you did do your redo of

>> we did Kyoto >> did yeah we did the Kyoto thing in Cancun this time >> in Cancun you two in the hotel room >> which Yeah, I was still in the hotel room. Uh

room. Uh >> different rooms now.

>> Yeah. Uh there some funny photos cuz like in Cancun in Mexico you cannot drink tap water, right? So we're just being uh coding for a week and a half dur during a company retreat actually.

Um so whole company was there for the week to do a retreat and we skipped all the events except the opening keynote.

>> Are you serious?

>> Yeah. Because we're just because we thought everybody else got early access to GPD4 too. like, "Holy [ __ ] the the race is on. Let's just get out as as fast as possible." It turns out, no, we

were one of the first one to get access.

>> So, the company is doing dinners, lunches, probably like awards and celebrations and you and your co-founder are nowhere to be found.

>> People know we're hacking on things.

>> Are you serious?

>> Yeah. I I did a keynote. Of course, I need to give a speech at >> the opening keynote keynote. Uh, and I did a closing dinners uh, toast, but besides that, we're just coding for the

entire week. We actually stayed longer

entire week. We actually stayed longer because we want to finish the prototype.

Uh, people know we're working on things.

>> Are you kidding?

>> No, it's understandable.

>> You would like come out I assume you would come out of the hotel and check in with the team and then come back.

>> No, we're just in the hotel rooms. >> Like you didn't leave the room. Um, of

course when we leave for dinner or food or something, but most of the time we're just hacking on things. Yeah, there's a entire table packed water bottle at the end of it. Then we take a photo because

it's so amusing. And so you would go out for dinner on the hotel property or something and then you'd come back and then you'd work into the night and then you wake up, >> do it again >> while everybody else is whatever. Like I

assume there are other partners there too. So everyone's partners are there.

too. So everyone's partners are there.

Uh, no. There wasn't parters. So, all

the employees are there. They're all

having fun. I It's part work, part fun.

>> Part work, part fun.

>> Yeah. And you had no interest.

>> Yeah. Guess it's like the once you see language 4 level, it just the world will be different, right? And that's the excitement.

>> That's incredible.

>> It's fun to build things with this.

>> It is fun.

>> Mhm.

When you moved from Vancouver, went to Inkling, left McKinnus. He's McKinnus is going to

left McKinnus. He's McKinnus is going to get a good laugh out of this. Left

McKinnus. Actually, he's going to be just fine. He's a first investor. He'll

just fine. He's a first investor. He'll

be fine.

>> Oh, it's more than fine.

>> He was actually check number one.

>> Yeah, check number one. Yeah.

>> Yeah, he's fine.

>> Yeah, he's fine. Then you go to move to San Francisco for with you you you meet your co-founder.

>> Uh I think I said I start by myself.

>> Yeah.

>> Then um there's another person Toby. Uh

my mom actually helped with initial funding to get the visa because you need some like put on some cash to get the visa, right? Uh she helped with it. Then

visa, right? Uh she helped with it. Then

Toby joined, then Simon joined. Uh, and

Toby left after the year. Uh, then just me and Simon. And we went up to fiveish people, went back to to then me and Simon for a while.

>> Then you went to Tokyo.

>> Then two of us went to Kyoto.

>> Yeah.

>> And we did that. We travel Kyoto.

Um, Sicily, Hawaii. Simon loves to swim.

So we usually go to place that he can swim, Cancun included. Uh uh we did that for like a year and a half two years and finished rebuilding notion

>> and you were equally as convicted during those years that this had to exist.

>> I think earlier your question is like how does it feel working on something like like a same thing for over again for so long? Um

first of all it has to exist. So if it doesn't exist, it's there's a joy and focus to help you just working in that thing. And second, if you're just

thing. And second, if you're just building this thing, it there's like um it's fun building things, but you get you get lost in the flow state. You just

it's somewhat repetitive, but it's also really fun, right? And that can just can keep going as long as there is. Um

like the funny is like if you look at Spotify annual report right towards the end of year Spotify give you how many hours of music do you listen that year

um sometime it shows like how many hours you listen previous year right so if if I look at mines and the years that I was coding and designing in the weeds with

Simon during those Kyoto Japan years I spent I listen to so much music because I would just be coding and listening to music. Nowadays, when you run company,

music. Nowadays, when you run company, you have to be in meetings all the time.

So, that bar is actually a lot lower. Uh

different type of flow states.

>> Do you find yourself craving the flow state of what it was like >> listening to music?

>> Oh, definitely do. Yeah. Like I haven't properly coordinate when you're coding.

Uh but I'm better at design. Yeah, it's

it's but it's like I don't have kids.

People say when you have kids it's it might inter be interruptive to your flow state but it's very gratifying when you see when you're zooming out a little bit, right? So building a company is

bit, right? So building a company is probably like having a kids. There's a

lot of things at coming at you but in aggregate that thing is really fulfilling.

>> Do you want kids? Oh, yeah.

>> You do?

>> Yeah. We're going to have kids. Yeah.

>> And do you worry about the trade-off of what that means for the company, for your first kid?

>> I have a really capable wife. We'll

figure stuff out.

>> Yeah.

>> It will definitely People say you get more efficient, more focused, right? Do

you have kids?

>> Not yet.

>> I will.

>> So, uh, we'll find a balance. when you started it on your own, why didn't you have why didn't you start it with somebody?

>> I had an idea already.

I can code and I can design. I can write a know a business business plan to get my visa. So I can do most things. I

my visa. So I can do most things. I

don't need other people in and sometimes Simon and I two of us can do most things a company needs. So

that allow us the notion to stay really small and we sort of hire people in that shape. So our designer can code because

shape. So our designer can code because we want people to make holistic trade-off in their head right both the design context and engineer context. Um

that also help the company to stay lean and stay small. So we're not thousands of people or highund a thousand people.

>> I cannot wait to see what you do if can I ask you maybe a different question I'm just fascinated if notion went public and you had the

whatever if notion got bought it doesn't matter if you walked away from notion what would you be doing I would get bored >> but what do you think you would do to

fill your time I might do architecture like I I would love to build buildings Creating physical products would be fun.

Probably architecture.

Like my wife and I love interior designs for our offices or for our home.

Architecture is like a more adult version of that.

>> I read somewhere that you get support tickets sent to your phone. Does that

still happen?

>> Yeah, it's on my phone. So if you just like right here, send us tickets.

Yeah.

>> Oh, it like actually pops up.

>> Mhm.

>> It's uh >> How many tickets are there right now?

>> I don't know.

>> That looked like a lot. Like meaning not that oh there's a bunch of people filing bugs, but every time if you're away from your phone for an hour in my lock screen, it wouldn't send me buzz push notification.

>> I know. But when you open it, when you open your phone, >> there'll be oneish thing on the very top. So I got a rough impression of

top. So I got a rough impression of what's going on, right? It's like

ambient like you get you care about your office, you care about your customer, you let the ambient thing to come at you. Uh it wouldn't bother me. It

you. Uh it wouldn't bother me. It

wouldn't buzz my watch, but we're just passing by. You get something.

passing by. You get something.

>> You strike me as someone that might have unique management styles.

>> I wouldn't say I have unique management style.

>> So you do you have the patience for a one-on-one?

>> Oh, I do. Yeah, I do one-on- ones for uh like my staff team, but they are all very excellent mature leaders. They all

much better manager leaders >> experience than I have been.

>> Yeah.

>> So, they're very I don't need to manage them in a sense.

>> When you interview >> Mhm.

>> how do you interview?

>> I do spend a lot of effort with interviewing.

Um that's something I care and treat consider one of my crafts.

First of all having a normal conversation.

So when you usually people come to interview they we we call a business jacket is on. You need to take off their virtual business jacket. You make sure

the other person understand you are a human and you see them as a human and you are here to find find a match. It's

not here to judge. It's not here to critique or exam and and I because end of the day like it's like fundamentally it's a match

right you have your value you have your skill um your craft we have company has a value and company has to craft a skill

for that role you figure out a match the best thing is to be very honest with each other both take out the business jacket and spend an hour to find a match

and um so then a normal conversation then we do a lot of references and a lot of back channels. Okay. So one hour or you have a panel of four or five people

that's only four or five hours is it's very like blind person touching elephant you can't get the full picture. But if

you have bad channels those people spend years with the other candidate you have a a better picture.

Then to find a match >> and what are you are you steering the conversation in a certain direction what are you what where are you

exploring with a candidate >> depends on if you if I'm interviewing for their craft and or their values like if it's a product design intro I usually

go deep on the craft a little bit just get a sense like from talking about craft you get a sense their value too, right? Um, but if it's a value, then you

right? Um, but if it's a value, then you we have few values in the company. I

want to probe around and see like how does the person match with our values.

There's not it's not um procedural. It's

usually just a bag of different questions or tricks and you just follow your notes after that. It's otherwise

it's too checklisty. You don't get the real out of it. You don't get a realness out of it.

>> Yeah, that's how I feel about doing this podcast. Yeah,

podcast. Yeah, >> people walk in with a business jacket and the goal is to take that off as quickly as possible, but actually have a normal conversation.

>> Like I like to start this by don't telling me we're starting this, we'll just go right into it.

>> Right. Right.

>> Right.

>> Yeah. It's very good.

>> Do you have other crafts? Do you have other things that you think of as a craft, personal or professional, whether it's in your in your job or in your home

life or whatever it is that you also treat like a craft?

>> I like I like to think about going back to the why AI is so fascinating like philosophy. It's philosophy

like philosophy. It's philosophy or history the overlapping ground of both. It's something my wife and I spend

both. It's something my wife and I spend time reading. Like we had a philosophy

time reading. Like we had a philosophy tutor during co um every weekend if we're not working, we usually reading books in history or philosophy. Um she's

actually spent so much time in philosophy nowadays. She's almost like

philosophy nowadays. She's almost like taking a uh like a master or PhD on it on her own, right? So um

but I think that going back to the AI topic it's like like we're in you almost practice this right like we're in this bridging grounded from one type of

medium which is classic software classic computing to this new AI power computing what do you do with that right you can read about how the past mediums like I

talk about the telephone telegram of the world transition And now by building notion I have a front row seat to experiment to see what

happens and to see what sticks right. So

I find that really satisfying going back to your like hey does AI makes you be a different type builder? Yes, because

it's finally we have this like shift from old medium to new medium and you can build with a new medium and my interest or learning in the history and

philosophy of the past allow you to apply that a little bit not fully otherwise be too much like armchair philosophy but you you can at least guide your direction of company a little bit

>> and maybe just one or two more like on the personal side I'm very fas fascinated with like how do you run a day? Like how are you

organizing your days? Do those days have a specific shape around a time, an end, a start, physical activity, food, like h how do those things all

>> Yeah, it's not too fancy. I'm more on burrito than side than the uh Michelin star side. Um

star side. Um like we have staff meeting. Uh,

>> what time are you awake?

>> 7 6:30 7ish.

>> What time are you in bed?

>> M last night I was jeliked, but typically 11:30.

>> Okay.

>> I sleep 7 hours. Um, I usually try to do some exercise in the morning. I was

running this morning. Um, like this morning for example, I woke up. I try

not to let my Slack notification I turn off notification on my Slack and emails.

I go to them. Don't let them come to me.

A really important thing will come to my text messages and um this morning I was trying to do some writing. I flushed out some of this ideas we just talked about,

right? Um and uh I did couple hours

right? Um and uh I did couple hours writing, did not finish it. Then going

back to uh Slack and emails and um did a run ran for uh two and a half miles and uh take a shower and got got here. You

wrote first. You woke up, wrote, then you then you ran.

>> I woke up, make a tea for myself, make a coffee for my wife.

>> Uhhuh.

>> Then I try to write.

>> And are you like do you like uh do you need to turn your brain off at night to go to sleep? Like do you have to do something to get away from work?

>> Usually my I'm on my phone all the time.

I try to read before I go to bed. you

read some philosophy or history.

>> Uh that's on weekends. Um I'm trying to read like last night we were learning about this Japanese um woodcut master

from early 1900s.

So how woodcut blockers are made and uh it's pretty complex procedural. We're

watching a little bit YouTube videos and we we're looking at uh books and uh yeah we talk about it then we fall asleep. I

think there's more con more more pro than con because fundamentally it's we're living in Silicon Valley South

Park is one of the center of this place right um it's a human endeavor and a lot of the craft of trade like the practice you learn from other people like how do

you work with language model nobody knows until we're start to figure out how to work with this new things you learn from talking with other founders talking with people who building with is

how to build a company. We sort of know this a little bit more through the SAS era now. Now it's a complete different

era now. Now it's a complete different game with the AI era, right? You learn

from other people. They happen to all live in San Francisco. There's no others to live in the city, so you have to hang out with them too, right?

>> Isn't it crazy? Like I don't know if you experienced this when you were in Japan but I was in the east coast for the 4th of July and uh I was with friends and uh you know

one afternoon some question came up and I opened up Chachi PT and I just started talking to it and everyone's like what are you

doing and I'm like just hold on a second and then you know starts talking back and they're like what is that and I'm like, "Oh, it's

OpenAI." And they're like, "Yeah, but

OpenAI." And they're like, "Yeah, but like you talk to it." And I'm like, "Yeah, all the time."

And right then and there I realized like, "Oh, we live in this crazy like they're not from like outer space. This

is like I'm on the east coast of the US, you know?" And they were like, and

you know?" And they were like, and somebody was like, "So I can just talk to I'm" I'm like, "Yeah." And by the way, the more you talk to it and the more information you give it, the more

thoughtful it'll respond to you.

And I just had a almost like an outer body experience, no pun intended, because sometimes you forget what kind of world we live in in this

seven miles of a city.

>> Yeah. Well, probably plus a little bit more Berkeley and that's true. Yeah. Um

well technologies never distribute evenly the it dissipate right and the the epicenter is here and we are people

self- select to be living in this region so they tend to pick up new things quickly. Um to my earlier point like

quickly. Um to my earlier point like we're in this very interesting shift of of new tools and old tools and new tools and we're in the

new camp because we're the fact that we're here we're living working and living in tech. Uh

yeah the world will be very I think it will be very very different.

So you sort of can it's like a knowledge work. This is the thing I'm been reading and thinking a lot. So it will be very different. Um it

lot. So it will be very different. Um it

might take some time for the technology to truly dissipate to get into organization for them to talk. But like

if you think about you can sort of see this in coding agent a little bit right like Simon my co-founder in the past few months he still codes

every he's still one of the most productive programmer in the company but um but he doesn't manage he just like to build things. Um but in the past few

build things. Um but in the past few months he hasn't coded uh for a few month now.

So if you walk by his desk, he's kind of like managing five, six different windows of coding agent do the work for him, right? And it's like our

him, right? And it's like our relationship with information with work is changing evolving towards that like you no longer do the work but you're

managing agent to do the work. But that

I think that's one part. I think the bigger part is the scale that information and work can go through a person and company will also increase.

It's almost like it's almost like you go into a small town or small no going to a very packed European city like Florence where

everything is packed in that small part.

You can walk from one end to another in 20 30 minutes versus a larger city like know Dallas where Houston it's made for

cars much further you cannot walk anymore but scale and speed is much grander and sometimes our relationship with

information is moving towards that right someone like Simon can going through manage output way more things uh than just if He handcoded handcrafted

everything by himself.

Um I think we're this region is probably the first to realize that and coding is probably one of the first to realize that too and will go to your friends on the east coast working in different

industries different sectors. Uh how

long that take I don't think anybody knows but it's the it's the shape of things to come. This is why I think timing matters so much and so often

things can be right but mistimed that come from Silicon Valley because you know let's take the example that you shared of getting the early version of

the uh GPT model.

You thought oh my god I'm late. So he

spent a week and a half in Cancun. Hold

up. You realize not only are you late nobody even has access to this thing yet. you know, and so it is a good

yet. you know, and so it is a good reminder that boy are we early.

We're still so so early. And so many of these tools like like a whatever the expression is, the redwood falls in a forest and nobody hears it.

Better make sure that when the tools people are ready when the tools are ready.

Well, if people are not ready and sometimes bureaucracy is a good thing and because it can slow down things, allow the rest of the world to digest to

take time, right? Silicon Valley people are so open-minded. Hippie starts here, tech boom starts here. We're just taking the new things like no tomorrow. But

that might not be the best thing. It's

like it's by the time you are 20 some 25 years old you sort of don't want to learn new things and that could be good could be bad

right but all organizations all personal thing need to adopt a new tools going through this things have personal system bureaucracy against new things um

I think with this AI wave we don't know but it will be it could slow things down a little bit but it might be necess necessary? No.

>> Thank you for doing this. Are you um are you hiring?

>> Yeah, always hiring.

>> Anywhere where Kyoto?

>> Um we have a Tokyo office. We don't have a Kyoto office. Yeah. But Tokyo office for sales. So um if you're product

for sales. So um if you're product engineer design, we have office in um SF and New York and Hydro by India. Um so

we're hiring those locations for product engineering design. Other offices, we

engineering design. Other offices, we have Dublin, Ireland for sales. Um,

Sydney, we just opened an office recently. Tokyo. So, uh, we're opening

recently. Tokyo. So, uh, we're opening Paris, Munich, and London this year, too, for sales.

>> Extremely busy.

>> Well, our customer base is 80% international, so we have that's why we have to travel a lot to meet them.

>> Yeah.

When you hear the word grit, what do you think of >> grit? Um, I really like the work rate.

>> grit? Um, I really like the work rate.

>> Why?

>> It's generally a positive human characteristic.

Like you go through things, doesn't matter the up and downs, you allow whatever you believe to compound.

Usually takes many years, a long time to compound and create something unique out of the other end, right? Um grid is the characteristic to to allow that happen to allow

compounding and compounding creates something beautiful usually useful.

>> I love that answer.

I love this. I love this conversation.

Thank you.

>> Oh, I'm glad.

>> This is delightful. I appreciate you doing this.

That's it for now. If you like the episode, please leave us a review or go back into the archives where we've done more than 200 episodes with some fantastic folks. This podcast is a

fantastic folks. This podcast is a Cliner Perkins production and I'm Juven.

Thanks for listening.