How Progressive Ideology Overrode Basic Biology | Carole Hooven

[Music]

Carol Hooven, thanks so much for coming

on my show.

>> Thanks for having me, Coleman.

>> So, I've met you before in real life.

I've followed your work. I've I've

followed some of the way that you've

been treated by the institutions that

you've worked for.

uh and I imagine people in my audience

some will be familiar with the story but

for those who aren't can you tell me a

little bit about first of all your

academic background how did you get into

studying the topics that you study and

then what has been your treatment from

academic institutions in the past you

know three years

>> okay so how far back do you want me to

go

>> well if you could give me the short

version of sort of your whole career

like why why are you interested in the

topics you touch and and so forth and

how did you come to be at Harvard and so

forth.

>> Okay, so um I've talked about this

before and I was really open about this

with my students. Um I was at the bottom

of my class in high school. I was not

paying attention. I had a lot of energy

and little parental oversight. And this

was I graduated from high school in 1984

and uh I was not a rule follower and I

think that's important. I think it helps

to explain a lot of what has happened.

Um

I basically skipped school. I drank a

lot. I did some drugs and uh did not

have a diploma. I was allowed to walk in

graduation but did not have a a diploma.

I um went to Antioch College which was

great at the time. It was wonderful for

me and uh it has a co-op program and as

part of the co-op program I did things

like live on a kabutz, travel around

Egypt, work for the government in

Washington DC, teach autistic kids, work

with schizophrenic adults. So I had a

lot of uh travel experience and really

interesting work experience that I could

bring into the classroom. And these were

small classes where we were encouraged

to challenge everything. And that was

wonder a wonderful thing about Antioch

were these small groups where there was

just tons of debate and anything went

and it is not the case uh there like

that anymore. they uh actually canceled

me at the same time from giving a talk

uh at the same time that Harvard was can

cancelling or whatever you want to call

it cancelling me.

Um, so Antioch was a really formative

experience for me and I was turned on

intellectually and I knew that I wanted

to go to graduate school, but I also

needed a lot of time to learn how to

live on my own and earn money and be a

competent adult. And uh, I grew up with

three older brothers. I was the only

girl. I used to play um, little league,

which was very unusual in the 70s. Um, I

was a kind of a rough rougher

girl in some ways. Um, so

I eventually I read a lot of books uh

during that time when I was trying to

figure out what I wanted to do and just

pursuing what I was interested in. And I

write about this in my own book on

testosterone, but it was the selfish

gene by Richard Dawkins. I get chills

when I talk about it because it was so

such a profound um

change in the way I I viewed my

existence and it got me interested in

science really interested in science in

a way I haven't been hadn't been before.

>> Yeah. So one of my favorite books too

and and still I think still to this day

the best single book on evolution by

natural selection you can read if you're

only going to read one.

>> Yeah. And it helped to me to make sense

of all of the things that I had seen all

over the world. I traveled extensively

by myself and got into some situations

which uh involved men and I was nothing

happened. I was okay. But like traveling

around Egypt alone as a kind of young

naive single woman turned out to uh

teach me a lot about cultures that were

different from our own. And I became

really really curious about why the

there were these cultural differences.

And I had spent uh some time in East

Africa and this is before I went to

Uganda uh later to study chimps. But my

time particularly around uh these

extremely different ecological

ecological and cultural conditions that

were new to me, you know, as a young

college student and then reading these

books. So, The Selfish Gene by Richard

Dawkins, uh, who I'm still a huge fan

of, and Richard Rangham's book, Demonic

Males, because first I developed this

interest in, um, evolution and genetics.

And then I read this book by this guy

Richard Rangham who happened to teach at

Harvard, a pimeatlogist that explained

how we could use evolutionary theory and

an evolutionary framework to understand

human origins. Where did we come from?

How can we what can we study to

understand uh how we got to be who we

are as humans? Why we are the way we

are? what why do we have um so many

similarities with non-human animals and

with people in other cultures and so

many differences? And so I decided I

wanted to go to graduate school at

Harvard and work with Richard Rangom to

go study chimps.

Um but I was extremely competitive and I

really had no relevant field experience.

I hadn't really done any uh serious

data collection and or or have any field

experience. So he ultimately offered me

a job out in Uganda running the his

chimpanzeee research project and

learning how to do research on chimps.

So I went out there for what was

supposed to be a year but ended up being

about 8 months because in uh 1999

98 and 99 when I was there there was uh

a huge amount of political upheaval in

um western Uganda where I was and um

it was very disturbing. The Peace Corps

was evacuated. There were some brutal uh

murders of westerners and rapes in the

uh region, threats of beheadings of

westerners. So uh it was a scary

situation and I I was studying chimps

and I was also hearing on the news about

this horrific violence. And one, you

know, profound difference in the

behavior of the chimpanzees is that

females are relatively peaceful and more

concerned with their children. Uh, and

they just do not engage in the extreme

and sort of regular type of violence

that the chimps engage in. Sorry, I

should say the the chimp aggression is

primarily um by males. Females can be

very aggressive, but the the male chimps

are aggressive every day. They're

physically aggressive, competing for

status. And then they also form these

bonds with each other. uh when they do

things like protect their territory and

go on um border patrols where they get

in the the male chimps will get in a

line essentially and patrol their

borders looking for males to pick off

from neighboring territories so that

they can expand their territory, their

territory. And one one of the things

that Richard Rangom um essentially

figured out was that the reason they do

that is because larger territories

benefit male reproductive success

because it gives females more of the

resources they need to essentially have

more children so that collectively the

males benefit genetically when they uh

cooperate. So

there were these very strong parallels

obviously between sex differences in

chimps in terms of sexuality and in

terms of aggression. And I became very

curious about the genetic or some other

kind of aspect of their uh biology that

could explain shared uh similarities in

the way that the males and the females

behaved. And I became interested in

testosterone. our genes are are very

very similar. There's um but one thing

we and most all other mammals and even

across other taxa share is is a big sex

difference in testosterone with males

having much more or or a um androgen

similar to testosterone. And uh there's

very similar patterns of effects uh in

terms of explaining higher rates of male

aggression and generally a higher libido

or andor preference for uh sexual

variety. So I think that's ultimately

what got me interested in testosterone

and sex differences

uh in general. And then I had reapplied.

Oh, I ended up getting evacuated after

eight months because the um threats of

violence were becoming severe in my

right uh where I

was. Um so there were you know

definitely parallels between what was

going on in the world right in my kind

of neighborhood out there in Uganda and

um

what is what I was seeing also in the

chimp. So these it really hit me hard.

Um and then I had reapplied and I got

into the Harvard graduate program

ultimately and the plan was to work with

Richard Rangham and I worked with him

for a little while but I decided I did

not want to uh go back and study chimps.

I wanted to do work uh and collect data

at Harvard. So that's what I did. So I

ended up getting my PhD at Harvard in

cognitive neurossychology and uh my

dissertation was based on sex

differences in spatial ability and I

also collected uh saliva from men mostly

uh

college students um and measured their

testosterone levels and looked at uh

something called mental rotation which

is the largest cognitive uh sex

difference. So I was curious about

whether testosterone helped to explain

that uh sex difference and what the

evolutionary basis might have might be

for uh male superiority ultimately in um

spatial ability.

[Music]

When it's not always raining.

>> There'll be days like this.

>> When there's no one complaining good

tonight.

>> There'll be days like this.

[Music]

>> Way faster.

>> Every day like this.

>> Okay.

>> I stayed on at Harvard as a lecturer. So

until I left in um

20 when did I and yeah technically I

left in uh early in 2023. That's when my

contract that's when I technic

technically I retired but I really

stopped teaching in 2022.

>> Okay. So can you talk a little bit about

the circumstances of your departure and

how your work in general has been

treated over the past few years? I think

listeners will be familiar with some of

the cancellation story, but can you fill

in what they might not remember?

>> Sure. Um, so I had a great time at

Harvard. I felt incredibly lucky. So

given my background especially, I felt

incredibly lucky and I I have described

my graduate school experience like I was

like a pig in [ __ ] I was so into it and

I just was really felt like I'd found my

place, you know, found my tribe. Um

and uh I had a great my adviser

uh I was co-advised by Richard and

another um professor Steve Costlin and a

reproductive endocrinologist um Peter

Ellison and uh so I stayed on teaching

in what the department that eventually

um became human evolutionary biology.

Originally it was biological

anthropology and it stayed retained its

focus and faculty but just sort of um

renamed to human evolutionary biology.

So I stayed teaching in that department.

My big course was hormones and behavior

and it was a very popular course. It was

ordinarily the uh course in the

department with the highest enrollment.

>> Um I loved teaching it. It was a huge

amount of work for me. Um but it's

incredibly satisfying and I also I

taught smaller and smaller courses and I

also advised students um served as their

adviser for their uh senior thesis which

are kind of like a mini dissertation and

I just developed close relationships

with a lot of students um and al and I

als

tenure track position because I was um

hired into this administrative position

which ultimately was co-director of

undergraduate studies which means I kind

of

ran a lot of the aspects of the

undergraduate program oversaw

undergraduate advising did a lot of

advising myself um and so yeah I was

just deeply involved with the

undergraduate program in terms of

advising and teaching and then I wrote

my book on um testosterone one tea, the

story of testosterone, the hormone that

dominates and divides us. It got great

reviews overall. There were no

criticisms really of the book. Uh I was

very proud of it and after I wrote it

through CO and it was actually published

during CO in the summer right before we

went back to our offices in 2021 and I

had a new literally a new corner office.

I had just come out with this book I was

really proud of. I had won um two

teaching awards over co I won teaching

awards like I have I don't know like 15

teaching awards or something. Um

I worked really hard over co to create

an experience that for my students that

would be meaningful um in a in a remote

teaching environment. So even before I

went back to my new office,

uh I had given an interview to

uh Fox and Friends because Barry Weiss

at this time had a Substack. I can't

even remember what I I don't think it

was called

>> Common Common Sense.

>> I don't know if it was the Free Press

Substack or was there a free press?

>> It's probably called Common Sense at the

time.

>> It might have been Common Sense. I think

it was her Substack at the time. So

Katie Herszog, who is a great journalist

and um co-hosts the Black and Reported

podcast with Jesse Single, had written

an article in Barry Weiss's Substack

that looked into how medical school

professors were backing away from using

clear scientific terms like male and

female and that they were getting

pressure from the um medical students

not to use these words because they

offensive. So I had contributed a quote

to that article and so uh Fox and

friends had me on to talk about this. So

as I was talking about it, my main point

was that nobody, no educator, especially

not a science educator or a um somebody

in charge of training our future doctors

should alter what they're teaching

because they're scared of their

students, you know. um they're the

instructors. They they have the

authority. They should teach what the

and use the words that make sense that

people understand, teach the science

scientific concepts that reflect the

truth, you know, and this was just

obvious to me. So, I didn't really think

twice about saying this on Fox and

Friends. And in the process I said

nobody should be afraid of saying that

there are two sexes male and female and

that sex in biology is defined by the

kinds of gameamtes that organisms

produce you know or are designed uh to

produce. So

that is what got me in trouble is saying

clearly that there are two sexes. And I

also said, but you know, we this doesn't

I said something like the facts of

nature are over here and then what we do

with them is up to us and we can use

everybody's preferred pronouns and

respect gender identities, but we have

to acknowledge the facts and be able to

talk about them. Um so my in in my

department we have we have I think we

still have it um a

um DEI committee and this one is run

many of the internal departments in

universities many of the departments

have their own DEI

uh committees or groups or task forces.

I think ours was a task force. the

director of the task force

um happened to be a black woman and that

is important because it it um plays into

what happened later. So she went on

Twitter and uh identified herself as the

director of Harvard's HB task force and

in that capacity

uh tweeted that she was appalled by I

don't I don't know why I don't remember

the exact words. um appalled by my

transphobe definitely she said appalled

by my transphobic remarks and and

described them as dangerous and harmful

to undergrads.

And

this to me, you know, this went out in

the world from someone representing

herself as speaking on behalf of the

department and Harvard. And all my

students and all the faculty know that

the last thing I am is dangerous. I'm if

if anything I'm overly caring about my

students. Um and I had taught in the

department for you know at that point um

I think 19 years ultimately it was about

20 years. So, um, I retweeted her tweet

and cuz I kind of was shocked and wanted

to take control of it and wrote, you

know, thank you for your input. I think,

you know, I care about the students. How

about a conversation? Anyway, this whole

thing went viral.

It was picked up by, you know, online in

newspapers all over the world. and my

reputation on campus took a big big hit

and the environment in the department

changed very quickly. Some other things

happened on campus that involved a chair

of another biology department sending

out an email um with a complaint about

my supposed transphobia.

You know, this went to hundreds of

people and uh I was isolated. I felt

very isolated in my department. I don't

have my I didn't have my own lab. People

stopped speaking to me. Uh the graduate

student union took out a petition

against me in the Harvard Crimson saying

that I had brought racist abuse and

death threats against Laura that I had

caused this. So I became the bad actor.

And uh

>> did they present any evidence for that

part or was it just like out of whole

cloth?

>> Uh no. I I looked on Twitter. There was

none. I had seen an email where evidence

was supposedly uh presented and there

was none um in terms of racist abuse or

death threats that that I saw. Um

and so as a result, it seems that there

was a uh and when you teach a large

lecture at Harvard or these other elite

academic institutions, generally you

have teaching fellows or teaching

assistants. At Harvard, it's teaching

fellows. I cannot run the course without

teaching fellows.

>> Mhm.

>> And I generally had two or three and

they would run sections outside of the

lecture and that's a big part of the

course and they also grade the exams

etc. helped to grade anyway. Um so all

of I could not for the first time manage

to get any teaching fellows for my

course and could not teach it. So

um and

while all this was happening I was

become I was becoming increasingly

distraught because I couldn't believe

that no one in a position of power in

terms in the my departmental

administration

the dean of science who I met with

Claudine Gay who was the dean of faculty

they all knew exactly what was happening

it was all over the crimson it people

were talking about it.

Um, none of them would speak out on my

behalf. Jeff Flyer, who was an ex dean

of Harvard Medical School, who, you

know, didn't no longer had a position of

power at Harvard, he offered to to my

department to um, publish this statement

in defense of me and my work. They uh,

said no. I guess that that never

happened. Um my chair

unfortunately co-signed a letter with

the other chair um who had sent out a a

letter saying that essentially that I

was transphobic

uh eventually lo wrote a letter a letter

uh I think they intended to apologize to

hundreds of people um which essentially

only blamed me uh for what had happened

and not taking enough care and uh the

impact of my words. So things just got

worse and worse. Steve Pinker was um and

and Dan Gilbert, who's a a psychologist,

Steve Pinker, also very well-known

psychologist uh was helping me and was

supporting me. Um and ultimately I

retired. definitely not what I wanted,

but I was becoming miserable and I just

could not stand to go into my

department. It was just awful. Um, so I

hired an attorney and negotiated a uh

retirement and nobody begged me to stay.

Nobody said we're sorry.

Um,

I mean, I I suppose there is some kind

there was some kind of I'm sorry, but it

was it's not it wasn't an apology. And I

published um some of the

>> I published some of this in the free

press, a description of what happened,

but that's it. And like that's the story

I left and it was awful. So, it still

is. It's amazing how such a huge episode

in your life can be touched off by such

what seems just like such a relatively

benign small comment

um and well a well-balanced comment. I

mean you you probably could have even

said it in a more barbed way than you

did on on Fox and Friends but and from

someone with all the relevant

credentials. So I want I want to talk

you know about gender differences and

the role of hormones in biology and

psychology.

But one thing I want to caveat the whole

conversation with is that uh in liberal

and progressive circles especially

there's something that very strange that

happens when you talk about this

subject. So for instance, if I were to

say the phrase men are taller than

women,

everyone would agree and understand that

what I mean is that men are generally on

average taller than women. Even though

we all know countless examples of women

in our lives who are taller than men in

our lives, right? No one would say,

"Well, hold on a second. My friend Sally

is taller than my friend Jim, so that's

not true." Right? No, no one has any

problem holding these two truths in

their head at the same time. That there

can be there can be an average

difference with millions and millions

examples of examples of individual pairs

where the opposite is true. But the

moment you make any other claim about

differences between men and women, no

matter how well it's supported by the

literature, suddenly people lose the

ability to see the distinction between

an average difference and a categorical

difference. And so I assume in this

conversation we're going to talk about

many differences between men and women.

And for I mean you'll correct me if I'm

wrong, but for literally all of them, it

is true that you know many women in your

life who are higher or lower on whatever

trait we're talking about than many men

in your life. Um for for almost if not

all of the traits we we might discuss or

touch. And so to me that seems like it

should be obvious, but it needs to be

said upfront.

Um so with that said

uh let's start with the effects of

testosterone and estrogen.

What actually do we know about the role

of testosterone in human behavior? What

does it actually do when you increase

it? Uh what happens as it decreases?

What is the role of estrogen in human

behavior?

and what if any are some of the popular

myths about what these hormones do?

>> So, thank you. Um, I just want to

address your statement about

average differences.

So, you're right that

every I would say

the only I would say sex is binary. It's

a true binary. And that is because male

and female

animals, let's just stick with animals,

um are defined by their

function to produce one type of gamet or

the other. So that works across all

sexually uh reproducing organisms in

that uh males produce the smaller mobile

gametes and females produce the larger

immobile ones. I'm not making gameamtes

anymore. Um, however, I'm still female

and little kids aren't making gameamtes.

Some people are born with disorders that

mean that they can't make me meet sorry

uh produce gameamtes. But it's really

which path are you going down in early

development? Uh, and in mammals say that

uh sex is determined by sex chromosomes.

I just want to clear this up because

there's a lot of confusion about this.

So sex chromosomes do not define sex. I

just told you what defined sex. It's

gameamtes.

Uh but not all animals even have sex

chromosomes. So there's temperature

dependent sex determination say in

crocodilians. And that means that the uh

undifferentiated gonad in very early

development will become ovaries or

testes based on the uh temperature in

the environment and that temperature

will lead to the production of say a

hormone enzyme called aromatase which

will lead to estrogen production and in

that case ovaries

um will develop rather than testes. So

that's one way that sex is determined.

So in crocodiles

uh you you can't identify sex by sex

chromosomes. So you can generally

identify uh human sex by sex chromosomes

because males have XY and females have

XX but not always. There are cases in

which um

one male a male might have um x y sorry

xxy or even xy y or a female might have

xy

uh and there are interesting reasons for

this and this is because I don't know if

you want me to go into what how a female

could have xy I'm happy to but the point

is that the only if there's anything

like an essence of sex. It's about the

gameamtes and and those are are uh

necessary. It all females will produce

large immobile gametes or will have the

theoretical capacity to produce those

types of gametes. The reason this

matters is because this difference is a

very deep ancient evolutionary

difference that

influences the way that males and

females develop physically and

behaviorally

because if you're a small gamet

producer, you're going to have to go uh

generally com find and compete for the

large game producers. And it helps to

explain on average a lot of the

behavioral and physical differences we

see between the sexes. The fact that

males produce small mobile gametes and

the females produce generally more

expensive calorically expensive larger

gametes. Okay. So in humans it is the

chromosomes that determine

uh whether the gonads are going to

differentiate into ovaries that are

capable of producing the large gametes

or um testes capable of producing the

small gametes. That is not the

definition of sex. Okay, does that make

sense?

>> Yes. So I'm getting to sorry this is a

long way of saying that you are correct

that all the other traits that are

associated with sex that are associated

with the ability to produce sperm or

eggs are on a spectrum that includes

something as basic as sex chromosomes

genitalia which are not always what you

might predict for a male or female.

Generally, you know, almost always males

will have X uh Y sex chromosomes and a

penis, but they don't have to. Sometimes

they don't. Uh sometimes a male can have

what appears to be a vagina or a female

could have what appears to be a penis.

So, you can start with these very basic

reproductive characteristics and there

is those are not a clear distinct uh

binary. Of course, when you get into

things like hormone levels, body types,

breasts, breast size, gender identity,

whatever, however you want to define

that, uh gender presentation,

um

desire for rough and tumble play,

parental investment, all those things

are of course on a spectrum.

So, I just think that's important to say

and to clarify. And what is happening

now uh is that there is a conflation

between sex itself and the traits

associated with sex. So a book just came

out by Augustine Fuentes, he's a

Princeton professor uh called sex is a

spectrum.

And in that book he you said that most

people can agree I think you said that

most people can agree that um the sex is

>> men are taller than women.

>> Yeah. That men are taller than women.

>> An example. Yeah.

>> And the other you gave some other

sensible examples. Sometimes people who

defend the idea that sex is on a

spectrum don't agree. uh somehow they

they do these tricks where they don't

agree with that uh or they kind of play

with what average means. So

um se is just I just want to be clear

that sex itself is binary and sex

associated traits are on a spectrum and

differ on average. Okay.

>> So then you ask what does testosterone

do? So when you think about the capacity

to you think about sperm versus eggs and

the goal of uh natural selection is for

organisms to get the highest proportion

of their genes into the next generation

as possible generally and it's just

about copying it's about um copying DNA

one's DNA and and in the case of uh

sexual reproduction parents are um

combining their DNA to produce a new

individual and they're each um providing

half of their own DNA. Okay,

so those organisms to reproduce as a

male and reproduce as a female on

average different strategies are needed.

So we can just talk about mammals

because that makes it easier and we can

talk just about land mammals say. Uh so

most mammals in in most mammals males

will have multiple female mates and

compete for multiple female mates. In

the book I talk about red deer. So a

dominant red deer, the goal of the red

deer is to create a large herum and in

order to acquire a large uh group of

females that you uh as the dominant male

or um would be able to inseminate, the

goal is to attain high status so that

you are able to I'm just going to use

the word acquire um a large group of

females that you will then uh be

motivated to mate with

um and you want to defeat other males in

a status competition in order to do

that. Those competitions are often

physical and require weaponry and large

body size and and muscle mass and a

psychological predisposition to fight

during mating season with other males.

That's called mating competition. And

this is because males produce large

gametes and they're in order to

reproduce they use their reproductive

energy budget. All all adult humans have

reproductive energy budgets. So we put

some energy a lot of energy into growing

and surviving. We put other energy into

reproducing. So in order for males and

just with the example of the red deer to

reproduce, they're using a huge amount

of energy to grow to a larger body size,

to maintain a high amount of muscle

mass, to grow antlers, to um pursue

females to mate with them, to prevent

other males from stealing stealing my in

quotes um the females. So this takes a

huge amount of energy and people don't

appreciate that. Yes, female mammals

gestate and lactate and that requires an

enormous amount of energy, but we do

that with our bodies. It just once we

are pregnant, it sort of happens without

us having to do anything. We have to

nurture our child. We don't we have to

let our child suck on our boob. Um, and

it's pleasurable because of hormones

like oxytocin.

But males have to go out and invest

energy in their body and their behavior

in order to reproduce. Okay? And that is

because of the difference in parental

investment. So the sperm are less

calorically expensive to produce. They

can make millions males can make

millions and millions of them. Females

make a limited number of more um

expensive eggs which provide more of the

nourishment for the developing embryo

uh and fetus. obviously. Okay. So, given

those differences in strategies, I just

gave you an example where there's an

extreme difference um but in only 5% of

mammals do males uh actually invest much

if anything in the um in parenting the

offspring. So what testosterone does is

first of all male male humans have from

like 10 to 30 times as much testosterone

as females. And I'll I want to make sure

I talk about the critical periods um

where that has an effect. But overall

testosterone is a reproductive hormone

that helps to allocate energy. So you

take energy in and convert it into

offspring. That's the goal. You want to

survive, but then evolution shapes us to

be motivated to get energy and to use

it. Uh especially once we uh completed

growth to then convert it into

offspring. We have different strategies

to do that because of the different ways

uh we use our we have we use our energy

differently to to do that. So females

have to have their bodies be homes for

the fetus that they are growing and then

their breasts are used with the energy

that they're taking in to produce milk

to you know grow the kid on or kids once

they're on the outside.

So that energy for females has to be

used to um store energy. So estrogen

biases energy intake towards uh being

used to produce body fat, right?

Testosterone biases energy intake to be

used to produce muscle because these are

the reproductive strategies that uh each

sex needs. And we need hormones that

direct the development of the physical

and behavioral traits. And this is

starting in uterero that enable uh males

to reproduce. And for instance in

uterero males will have again uh very

high testosterone during a critical

period in uterero uh which their testes

are producing. And that testosterone

uh directs the development not only

development not only of the um internal

and external genitalia,

it also acts on the brain. And we know

this from very clear studies in

non-human mammals that testosterone is

what is responsible for instance for

higher rates of rough and tumble play in

male animals. So that um I should say

there's also a period in humans directly

after birth where testosterone rises

again in males that's called mini

puberty. It's about uh 3 months after

birth and that appears to be another

time where testosterone is acting on the

body specifically interestingly and

they're just sort of learning how this

works. It has something to do with uh

further penile development at that

stage, but also potentially more actions

on the brain to masculineize behavior.

So, we know from some evidence in

humans, but mostly in uh other mammals,

that you can regulate the expression of

rough and tumble play, like tackling

each other. I have a 16-year-old boy.

He's still doing this with his friends.

Um, and it makes me nervous because he's

6'1 and his best friend is 6'3 now, but

this is what they did growing up. And

they're not like these tough, you know,

super athletic boys at all. But they um

they're one of their favorite ways to

play and has been since they were little

is tackling each other and wrestling.

Two girls playing as kids rarely play,

you know, prefer to play that way. And

this is not something that is unique to

humans. We see this in male mammals

particularly when as adults uh physical

competition

is necessary for reproductive success.

And it's um a skill that has to be

learned. And aggression is reduced in

adults when the as kids, boys learn how

to play with each other aggressively and

learn the signals uh learn who's

dominant and learn sort of when to

submit, when not to submit.

>> How do we know that aggression is is uh

reduced in adults? So we know this this

is so the best studies we have are from

non-human animals and there's a series

of studies that if you prevent

uh you maintain a young male's social

environment but you prevent him from um

playing with other males other males I

think and those males as adults have

higher rates of aggression than the

young males who just play typically

rough with the um their male friends or

whatever you want to call them and other

animals. And the the

reason they're less aggressive is

because they learned how to regulate

aggression. So play is the main thing

that kids do. And the sex differences in

play have something to do with

reproductive behaviors. Um it's practice

for survival and reproductive behaviors

that each sex needs um in adulthood. But

what we do, I think, have better have

good evidence for is that um in in uh

non-human primates and in rodents, if

you block male testosterone in uterero

or directly after birth, depending on

when the critical period for

masculineization is, you block rough and

tumble play. So you can also add tes

high male levels of testosterone to um

females in early development and you

increase rough and tumble play. And in

humans we know that in little girls who

have excess testosterone in uterero they

have higher rates uh of rough and tumble

play. So the point is that it is this

sex difference in testosterone that

starts in uterero that

sets each sex down on somewhat of a

different path uh because they are

developing

um sexually specific

mating strategies essentially and

they're practicing them as as kids.

Again, this is on average. There's a lot

of boys who didn't don't like rough and

tumble play. And um notably boys who

grow up to be gay show so show show um

lower rates of rough and tumble play

which is interesting. But the boy those

boys who grow up to be gay show typical

male sexual behavior. Um which is

interesting because both of those things

are mediated by testosterone and

non-human animals. So that's but that's

um an aside. So your question about

increasing okay so that's the first

critical period and the fact that when

the kids are little you know say four

five six seven boys and girls don't have

differences in testosterone that

difference stopped a few months after

birth like that was the end of the high

testosterone. girls never had um much

testosterone in uterero. They have some

and they have a little estrogen peak

after birth, but they don't require any

specific sex hormones to show typical

feminine behavior. It's that if you

don't have that testosterone exposure,

you are likely to show typical feminine.

>> So, just to get this clear, if if we're

looking at like a group of

sevenyear-olds

and we're seeing that the boys are

wrestling with each other and doing arm

wrestling and the girls are by and large

not doing that. That's not because their

seven-year-old levels of testosterone,

if we measure them today, are any

different. That's just the the long tale

effect of being having being being

swamped in testosterone in the in in the

uterero and in the early uh months of

life.

>> That's correct.

>> Okay.

>> So those are again so in humans we can't

do the experiments to show exactly what

is happening in the brain.

uh but we do have a lot of evidence from

non-human animals that testosterone is

acting on uh specific parts of the brain

but that have to do uh primarily with

sex and aggression. And there's some

areas that have been identified, but in

it seems that testosterone is having

more subtle effects on neuronal um

development, connectivity, death that um

affect overall behavior. I don't think

we still have great data on exactly what

neural uh changes that testosterone

leads to cause the uh different

outcomes. But we do know that you can

manipulate these um sex-based behaviors

that are more typical of one sex or the

other by manipulating early exposure to

testosterone. And so even if we didn't

have puberty as the next critical period

or we didn't say we didn't have sex

differences in hormones or any sex

hormones in puberty, you would still

have these long-term effects of the

different behavioral patterns and social

patterns that affect brain development

um that happened in childhood. You know,

if you're doing a lot of rough play,

that's going to shape the way your brain

develops and the way you develop uh

psychologically and socially. So

just that large sex difference in

behavior that is I would say caused by a

difference in testosterone exposure has

long-term effects on its own uh that

don't go away.

>> Okay. So, how do we know that the

behavioral differences like rough and

tumble play for instance are the product

of hormones that are downstream of sex

differences as opposed to how society

tells boys they're supposed to behave,

how society tells girls they're supposed

to behave. What's the best evidence or

the best natural experiment that you

would show to a skeptic who believes

it's all a culturation? So first I would

ask the skeptic

uh why every culture

all over the world why do we have no

cultures where girls are doing this

behavior and boys are um playing house

say I mean everyone uses their iPhones

now but when you know kids are playing

outside and uh

don't have a lot of technology like the

way I grew up. Uh why do we not have any

why is culture

everywhere across the world leading to

the same outcome? Why is this the

cultural norm?

>> Yeah. I mean, so I'm not a skeptic, but

if I were to play devil's advocate, I

would say, well, you know, there's a

culture, a long-standing culture of the

patriarchy almost everywhere in the

world for thousands of years

>> where it just somehow it got locked in

that men were to behave a certain way

and women were to behave another way.

And so, you know, it's basically it's

cultural on all four corners of the

earth down through time.

>> Yeah. I mean there

I think that's a very hard argument to

make but where I go is to say first of

all let's think about why this

difference might exist. So I would point

to evolution and um reproductive

strategies. So we have a theory that

makes a whole lot of sense and clearly

explains what we're seeing in non-human

animals. We have and we see the same

thing in humans. So, it's predicted just

based on evolutionary theory and um

where we're coming from uh from our own

evolutionary history where we no longer

have to use uh physical aggression to

attain status in order to attain mates.

We've been acculturated out of that. not

everywhere uh but in western most

western societies uh and so you would

predict that and then you do find that

we also have a mechanism um and that is

testosterone

and the that mechanism of uh this

specific hormone regulates a suite of

behaviors that promote male or have

promoted male reproduction in human

evolutionary history and currently in

many non-human animals. And we know this

because when you manipulate testosterone

in the different sexes or you manipulate

the receptor or any number of other

kinds of experiments, you can reverse

the um feminization or masculineization

in terms of brain and behavior. So then

you could say, okay, well, where's the

evidence in humans? Because we have this

confound. We do have an extremely

gendered society and there's a lot of

reinforcement of male of masculine norms

and that is a fact. So boys are so

here's some evidence boys behavior is

really very strict often strictly

policed to be you know uh especially by

other boys who can be quite cruel if the

behavior is not masculine enough. So

there's an incentive for boys to engage

in in rough play because they may are

often uh bullied and harassed if they're

seen as sissies.

But there are boys, especially these

boys who are gender non-conforming as

kids, they often will not uh engage in

rough play because they don't like it no

matter how much pressure they have from

their dads or teachers. Um,

and the so I think there are some

counter examples, but then we have this

evidence from girls who have congenital

adrenal hyperlasia.

And there's a lot of push back on the

evidence because the people who want to

support the argument that you just made

hate that there is any evidence that

shows that testosterone

in uterero increases rough and tumble

play in girls. At this point, there are

probably over a hundred studies, very

welldesigned, clear studies that show I

think it's about I think it's over a

hundred. Um, but that

>> there's a kind of um, sorry, sorry to

interrupt, but that there there's just a

kind of there's a kind of paradox which

is interesting to me where because

people on the sort of post-modern gender

is a spectrum side of this argument will

often cite these examples of girls that

behave in male typical ways and uh, boys

that behave in girl typical ways. But

then when you scratch beneath the

surface, you find that those cases are

cases of biology doing its work as well.

And so beneath the surface, it actually

ends up undermining their whole

argument. If all the girls that like

rough and tumble play are girls with

higher levels of testosterone, which

then goes back and reinforces the idea

that biology really is doing the lion

share of the work to begin with. Is that

right?

>> I wouldn't

Yeah. Um, I don't know. So, for

instance, I don't know that I had high

prenatal testosterone. I had three older

brothers. So, maybe there was something

about my, you know, my environment. But

what we do know is that the girls who

have congenital adrenal hyperlasia, who

clearly have uh higher than average or

sort of atypically high, not reaching

the male range. Um, that's very

difficult for a female to do. um but

atypically high testosterone

overwhelmingly are showing masculineized

play. So that's just a fact and there

are many many studies showing that. I

don't know if you can make the re the

claim from play to higher testosterone.

Um, but it's likely and we don't have

terrific measurements of um testosterone

levels in in the womb that fetuses are

exposed to in general, but we know when

there are these disorders

um that there there is elevated

testosterone and there's also a

masculineization of the clitoris that uh

so so there's some physical effects of

these of say congenital adrenal

hyperlasia. So we have an index of how

high the testosterone might have been

based on clitoreral size,

>> right? Um so in everyday life,

I'm talking about work, school, sports,

etc. Where do these sex differences,

these average sex differences matter the

most and where do they matter the least?

>> Sex,

uh sex is the big one. Um so we have

very clear evidence for testosterones.

So here it gets interesting. Um

so sex and aggression do seem to come

apart a bit

in terms of um the effect. So when I

when what we should be thinking about

when we think about the effects of

testosterone is really and how to

understand sex differences is really the

fact that men have so much more than

women. Not sort of the differences among

men or changes in male testosterone

although they it does

male testosterone does change for some

interesting social reasons and I I would

like to come back to that. Um

but the meaningful difference is is that

males have so much more many many times

more the level you know just say 20

times as much as females. So there's

some threshold and above that threshold

you get male typical behavior. So

sexuality seems to be male typical. It's

not you can have relatively low but you

know healthy range or relatively high.

It predicts nothing about sexual

behavior and so far as we know it

predicts nothing about aggression.

However, the fact that you have a male

typical level predicts that you are

going to be uh have a much higher sex

drive than most women. You are going to

have a much stronger preference for a

variety of sexual partners than most

women. That just seems a male. If you

have have been exposed to typical levels

of testosterone, you're going to have a

male typical sexuality. You may or may

not have male typical um aggression. You

know, that's something we can't measure

in the lab because most people are not

physically aggressive, but of the people

who are extremely physically aggressive,

they're almost all male. you know,

they're 80 depending on the uh violent

crime, you know, 80 to 99%

male. So,

and if you look at the patterns of uh

violent crime, it pretty well parallels

uh the peak and then sort of plateau in

male testosterone levels, which from an

evolutionary point of view would have

mirrored the height of male male

competition for mates. There's a bit of

a delay um after the peak in puberty and

that is because like my again my son,

sorry to use him. Sorry, I won't say his

name. Um, sorry, my son. But he's tall

and thin right now and he's 16. He's got

a lot of testosterone going on, but he

had, you know, they the teenagers are

just entering the adult kind of mating

market. They're developing their

musculature. They're developing their

dominance skills. They're figuring out

what they're good at, how they can

achieve social dominance. it takes a few

years for them to really enter that

adult mating market and that's when we

see um this peak in male violence. Um so

sorry that that was kind of getting off

of your question but so we've got these

two aspects of masculinity and I'm

saying that the sexual the

masculineization of sexuality seems to

just require some threshold. We have a

huge amount of variation in aggression.

It's just that females on average are

much much less physically aggressive

um than males. So in terms of where this

plays out competitiveness,

a lot of women don't like that. But

there's a different ele there's a

females of course I'm not saying are not

competitive. Many women are extremely

competitive but male male competition

takes on in my view a different nature.

um here. So that the evidence for the

testosterone involvement is best for uh

sex and aggression and that's in humans

and non-human animals in terms of the uh

sex difference particularly for sex. So

what's interesting is that if you look

at people who transition

making making a uh gender transition and

use hormones to do that, if they go from

female levels of testosterone, so a

woman uh transitioning to live in the

male sex role who takes male typical

levels of testosterone, the most common

and profound psychological effect that

happens within a few months is to they

go through something like a male puberty

and are generally shocked by the

intensity of their sexual desire.

There's variation here in the effects,

but this is one thing where you're going

from a female typical on average um type

of sexuality to a male type which is

more intense, more focused, more driven,

and more objectifying of this of

whatever the sex they're attracted to.

So the same there's a similar need for

um ultimately love

but there but the uh high testosterone

seems to lead uh people and this here

I'm using what um I have heard and

there's hints of this in the literature

about objectification. I've heard this

from a few people who have transitioned

that they began to objectify

this body parts uh think more and

fantasize more uh and have more mental

imagery about the body parts of the sex

they're attracted to while still having

a longing for love and intimacy. There's

this other you know heightened drive and

obsession with sex. The other data point

there is uh firsthand accounts

which uh there's this guy more plates

more dates on YouTube who he analyzes

he's a former steroid user and and

bodybuilder that analyzes uh especially

like famous celebrity body

transformations. So you'll have like a

celebrity like you know like um Kuml

whatever his name is um Kuml Nanji I

might be getting that slightly wrong but

he's like he's as like a totally normal

guy's bo body body and then 6 months

later he's in a Marvel movie looking

like a like like a god

>> which is you know as you know

>> not actually possible from like you

could lift weights 2 hours 3 hours a day

and

>> you can't go from a normal scrawny guy

to looking like uh you know Liam

Hemsworth

in 6 months. It's just not possible.

That that takes many many many years

unless you're taking a whole bunch of

testosterone in which case you can

actually do that in 3 4 months.

>> Yeah.

>> So he analyzes these bodies, these

bodily transformations from the point of

view of someone who has taken steroids.

And steroids is just a like a a suitcase

term for different kinds of testosterone

and other similar similar hormones.

Often it's just straight up

testosterone.

But he analyzes these first-person

accounts that people will, you know,

former steroid users will they, you

know, I started taking testosterone and

here's what happened to my life in the

next two years. And half of the stories

are just people destroying their lives

because they became so incredibly horny

every single second of every day,

>> destroying their marriages, their

relationships, uh getting into physical

fights. So this sorry who's saying this

is the anecdotes from this

>> these are anecdotes usually shared on

Reddit or in essays but there this guy

more plates more dates on YouTube he'll

read them because his whole channel is

devoted to this genre of content.

>> Okay.

>> And so I have found those to be very

entertaining and and enlightening. So

you know you know it's it's not only uh

>> women that want to transition to to to

present as a man. also men that double

or triple their level their natural

level levels of testosterone in order to

get jacked.

>> Okay, this is interesting because there

is some very

solid uh data showing that even when you

raise male testosterone levels to supra

physiological levels, but maybe not to

the levels that you're talking about, um

sex drive tends not to change. But these

could also be guys who are in

relationships or who are not so jacked

that they're getting a lot of attention

from women. So here you have somewhat of

a social potentially confound um

>> because once you change your body it's

going to be easier to to get sex

generally if you're a guy and you're

getting completely ripped. So,

um,

yeah, I haven't seen the data that shows

that effect in in males. So, um, but

possibly, yeah, but I can imagine it

would happen.

>> It's possible these are people taking

like extreme amounts of like tren

trembolone and and and things like this.

Not like the amount that a 50-year-old

guy would go to his doctor to get, you

know, testosterone therapy. like the

these these people are taking much more

than that.

>> Yeah. So that's interesting. Um

did they say anything about aggression?

>> Yeah, it's it's you know people for the

first time in their lives getting in bar

fights. Uh this kind of thing ending up

in some cases ending up in prison and

you know looking back on the whole thing

as like wow like why did I do all this

to my life just to get jacked?

>> Yeah. No, I'm so glad you're bringing

this up because people do not appreciate

that once you start getting the benefits

of high exogenous testosterone that

you're t that you're take that's not um

produced naturally by your own body.

When you take that testosterone, your

brain senses that you have enough

testosterone in your system and it stops

sending signals to your testicles to

produce testosterone. So, your testes

kind of shrivel up because they're not

producing sperm or testosterone anymore.

>> Um,

and

it may take a long time for that

function to come back online. And if you

take it enough of it for long enough,

it's not clear that your fertility will

ever return. So, in some cases, from

what I understand, it it could cause

permanent infertility. But suppose

you're like you have great erections,

you're getting super muscular, you're

getting a lot of attention, you feel

great, and then you stop. Your

testosterone won't come online for

months necessar. I mean, it it it could

be quite some time. So during that time,

you're not even going to be able to get

an erection. You're going to start

losing muscle mass. So this is why

people become addicted because coming

off of it is so difficult. uh you know,

you go from having tons of sex to

essentially having none. Um so that's

something to really consider before you

start taking it. Uh that' be very

difficult to come off of it.

>> Okay. So we we never quite got to the

second half of my of my earlier

question. Where are the sex differences

in everyday life the least important?

>> Yeah. Well, I guess I'm biased. It's

hard for me to think of any area where

it's not important. Um because men and

women are and boys and girls are are

very different. Um even intellectually I

think we're different. Cognitively we're

different. I wrote an article um for

Colette on sex differences in chess and

there are very large sex differences in

chess with males consistently, you know,

on average dominating

>> females. And it seems to be the case. I

I think the the reason is that males are

more focused on

have something called like higher rates

of obsessive drive where they will focus

intensely on one thing and becoming the

best at that one thing and winning at

that one thing and put their driven to

put the time in. I don't see a rel clear

relationship to testosterone in the

literature. Mhm.

>> Um,

so we're not important, super important

in terms of the role of the sexes in

raising the kids. Sometimes it's

reversed, but in terms of large patterns

and behavior, uh,

it's important everywhere.

>> I think it's important everywhere, but

it must be not very important in some

places. Maybe um, can you think of it

something? I I've never been asked this.

I love it. It's I mean I agree it's

important everywhere to a degree but you

know that itself is is a spectrum. So

you got sports on one end where we just

have to segregate men and women to play

sports essentially unless you're one of

the few people who thinks we can get rid

of that but we don't have to segregate a

journalism school. Right? Men and women

can collaborate together on equal terms

in across various aspects of life and uh

pretty much treat each other

with without regard to to sex and things

work out in certain spaces and in other

spaces men and women actually just

straight up need to segregate.

>> You're talking more about practical

implications. Exactly.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Then it doesn't matter.

Yeah. in the workplace, you know, it

shouldn't matter. But of course, it does

because there's sexual harassment,

there's men doing each other favors and,

you know, women doing each other favors

or women gossiping about men or, you

know, so officially, I mean, so I guess

I think it matters in every social

environment. Um, but like you're a

relationship. Does what about your do

you think it matters in your all aspects

of your relationship or would you say

>> with my with my fiance?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Absolutely. like yeah I it would

it would not make sense for her to treat

me as if I were a woman and for me to

treat her as I were

>> just treating each other as human beings

right so that's what I'm trying to think

do we ever interact in a way that fails

to account for or acknowledge or wear

that one our sex meaning the effects of

testosterone say and or estrogen

different exposure over a lifetime is

not part of that or an important part of

that

>> well I think in like a like a healthy

normal workplace environment most of

your actions will be

indifferent to sex that's not to say

there there'll be a sexual harassment

situation or people will start dating

and then it becomes very important but

in the run-of-the-mill

course of of an average day it it it

really shouldn't matter that much and it

doesn't

>> Yeah I think it shouldn't but I think it

often does okay so I didn't give a good

answer

No, that's okay.

Uh, you gave an honest answer and that's

what matters. Okay. So what do we know

about the long run effects of

suppressing testosterone

uh uh in in the case of say um hormone

uh of of puberty blockers in in

adolescents that have gender dysphoria

or uh the long run effects of taking

testosterone in the case of

um in the case of a natal female trying

to transition to present as a

Okay. So, I this is a good way for me to

piggyback on the last question because I

can start out by talking about so sex

hormones are coordinated with the type

of gametes we produce. So, if you have

like testosterone goes up in puberty

because you're making sperm. you're

becoming sexually a sexually viable

mammal and you need to then develop the

secondary sex characteristics and

behaviors that will allow you increase

your chances of successful mating and

etc. Right? So just starting with that

in adults especially in males we do not

see this in females with testosterone or

estrogen in any of the studies that I

have seen and I have looked very hard.

Uh we in so females have changes in

estrogen of course across their cycle

that do those changes do appear to

affect behavior in meaning in ways that

are meaningful for reproduction.

And men also have changes um in

testosterone

that are relevant to their uh social

situation, their status, their

competitiveness, their risk-taking.

They're getting men get feedback based

on their perception of what's going on

socially that is translated uh often

into alterations in testosterone level

that are coupled with the environmental

stimula. So this is super important that

and people don't really understand that

this happens and that when you take

exogenous testosterone

you are um preventing these natural

evolve this whole system that has

evolved to tune you into

um what's happening socially and how you

Coleman Hughes can increase your status

or or you know how you can should you

compete or should you back off. Is this

woman uh fertile or not? Do I do I have

a chance competing? Not that you're

competing now, but um do I have a chance

competing against this other guy for

this woman's attention? Do I have a

baby? Do I have a partner? So, when you

entered into your mat, um you probably

when you're committed to one female, you

would probably have a bit of a decline

in testosterone. It's just like when

monogous birds are setting up their

territory and fighting off other males,

they have an increase in testosterone.

But when they pair up with one female,

their testosterone goes down. It has to

go down or else they will when she has

kids, um the father will abandon the

children if the testosterone is raised.

So suppressing testosterone in a

relationship is adaptive. It's not

always good to have high testosterone

and be out aggressing and um trying to

find new females. Okay, so that's just a

way of illustrating and there there's

much more to those uh social changes

than I just said, but the point is that

there is a system in place where this is

a dynamic hormone that influences and

responds to social situations.

Um so that when you have people who

um first of all go through

it's not even a real it's not even it's

a type of puberty will go through a like

if a male goes through a uh estrogenic

puberty

he's that means he's taking exogenous

hormones. Of course that whole system

that happens in females with um monthly

ch monthly cyclic changes in hormones is

not going to happen in a male first of

all and uh similarly when a female takes

testosterone

actually yeah I I

she will not experience those same kind

of uh that same kind of social feedback.

So that's one thing to think about. The

second

>> that's a very interesting point. Can I

linger on that before you go to the next

point?

>> So you're you're saying

>> the the way testosterone works in a

natal male is that maybe I get it. I get

a burst of testosterone in response to

specific events that my

brain is telling me are good times to

get a burst of testosterone. If you

don't if you beat someone out in a

competition,

>> my team wins in a competition, right?

>> Or if you take a risk, you win a chess

game,

>> right?

>> So there there's some kind of

>> there's feedback between how when I get

testosterone and how much I get

>> and what's actually happening in the

real world. And that feedback allows me

to navigate the world encourages me to

navigate the world towards higher

status.

>> Yes.

>> Or it'll help you like realize that

okay, you don't have high status.

Yes, maybe you need a different strategy

like pair up with one female and be an

amazing dad and you'll have just as many

kids as if you're a higher status male

with, you know, potentially higher

testosterone out on the mating market

all the time. You might come out even,

but you're using two different

strategies. Okay.

>> Right. And and and you're saying you're

making clear here that if you're a natal

female taking testosterone, that link

between testosterone and navigating the

world isn't the same. You're just

getting a constant dose. That's correct.

Um,

>> okay. So, continue.

>> Not only are you getting a constant

dose, okay, here's another really

interesting, what I think is a very

interesting, overlooked factor in

transitions. So I explained what happens

in uterero and there's very good

evidence in non-human animals that

testosterone is

having you know high testosterone in

males is having different effects on uh

the brain development than having no

testosterone in uterero. We know that

there's that that really matters and

influences uh some different outcomes.

So the idea is that this is called the

organizational activational hypothesis

and it's not this simple. It is more

complicated but the idea is that in

puberty when testosterone goes up in

males it is acting on the masculineized

brain. It's acting on those

masculineized neural structures to

produce certain kinds of adult behavior.

So, if you are a female who is taking

high levels of testosterone, you're not

going to act exactly like a typical male

because you have essentially something

like there's not also just a female

brain and a male brain, but there are

brains that are more feminized and more

uh masculineized.

Uh if you're a female and you take

testosterone, it has not been

masculineized in uterero. So, it's not

the same act. it's not going to be the

same effect as uh pubertal testosterone

in a typical male. So now you take trans

women who do have a masculineized brain

say who did go through male puberty

which is the second critical period

which also has permanent u testosterone

that high testosterone also has

permanent effects on the brain and body

obviously uh in puberty. So, if you take

a transw woman who's a a male who um

transitions after puberty, that male has

already had a double dose of

testosterone on the brain and is now

blocking it and taking estrogen. You may

have remnants of some very uh typically

masculine behaviors,

especially um certain types of

aggression seem to be still sexually

differentiated. More masculine style of

aggression even in a male who is on

estrogen. And part of the reason might

be that um it's because of this early

masculineization

uh combined with the further effects of

high levels of testosterone in puberty.

Okay. But what you asked about is what

are the effects um of taking cross- sex

hormones in puberty. Right. So one thing

we know is so the the point of the high

sex hormone or reproductive hormone

levels in puberty is to masculine to

sorry to um further develop fully

develop the reproductive system so that

it's capable of producing um sperm in

males and eggs and females. So, and then

combining that um reproductive system

development with changes in the brain

like more risk-taking, more sex drive,

uh more nurturing,

uh more socialization and status

competition, pairing those traits with

the um availability of gametes. So if

you do not go through a natural puberty

and you do not develop the um testes and

ovaries and genitalia

so that they're capable of producing

gameamtes and then in the male case

delivering gameamtes into the external

world uh like a a um female's genital

tract or however you want to release

your semen. if you if you don't

um go through that development. So in

the male there's no capacity for

erection anymore. The penis hasn't

developed. The sperm will not be made.

The um semen will not be produced. So

there will not be a um

typical male orgasmic capacity. um there

I don't believe that uh there is

evidence of

orgasm and here there's definitely not

going to be the capacity to produce

sperm so there would be permanent

sterility

um and sexual function is definitely

severely inhibited and I I

don't believe there's evidence of orgasm

in those males who who go through an

estrogenic puberty There is some um

anecdotal evidence of non ejaculatory

orgasms in men, but I'm not sure that it

happens in this particular population.

And so for females, it's a little bit

different because the clitoris grows

under te under testosterone. And I

believe that there's some orgasmic

capacity for um trans men, but there's

again it depends on what tanner stage. I

should qualify and say that if you let

the um

ovaries and testes develop sufficiently,

you might be able to harvest uh sperm or

eggs or potentially resume

uh capacity for their production. But

generally when puberty blockers are

started say tanner stage 2 there's not

uh sufficient development of the ovaries

and testes to allow for gameamt

production. So there would be no future

fertility and of course we need more

time to study this stuff and do more

research. But so it does seem that

fertility is permanent.

Um inf sorry infertility would be

permanent in this population and

generally sexual function will be

severely inhibited particularly in

males. So, if you were to boil it down

to the simplest possible terms to like a

one minute answer, what is it that the

trans activist community in general has

wrong about the implications of cross-

sex hormones and so forth for

adolescence or even young adults?

>> Yeah. So, I'm the my area is not really

on um

how effective transitioning would be for

alleviating gender dysphoria. I know

about that literature, but a lot of

people know more than I do. The idea is

that the evidence base is just not there

to support the claim that hormones and

surgery particularly in young people

alleviate their psychological problems

especially gender dysphoria. So, you

know, the recommendation is that young

people under 18 not uh take puberty

blockers because almost all of the

people who start on puberty blockers

progress to cross- sex hormones. So,

they would interfere with their uh

natural puberty. And uh there are

studies that strongly suggest that going

through natural puberty is what allows

people to come to terms with their

sexuality and experience some se

experience what it's like to be a sexual

human and have um sexual activity and

maybe some orgasms. because if you uh

interfere with natural puberty, you're

not going to even experience any of that

stuff before you decide to maybe never

have it um or never have kids. So, the

idea is just that the evidence base um

isn't uh there for for the benefits.

>> Okay, two more questions.

>> Yeah. Um, I heard someone online

recently argue that sports should be

segregated by hormone levels instead of

by sex. Almost.

>> Neil deGrasse Tyson.

>> I I it might have been. Yeah.

>> Um, good idea or bad idea?

>> A terrible terrible terrible idea.

>> Why?

>> So, it's just ridiculous on its face.

Like, um, cuz what we have makes sense.

So there's a reason we separate by sex.

It's because all those things, hormone

levels, strength, limb length, bone

density,

um speed, all those things are generally

captured by sex. It doesn't mean that

it's fair. It's not fair. Whoever said

sports was fair. It's not. Some people

are just genetically blessed. Some

people have more money and opportunity

to practice. Um, some people put more

energy into practicing.

Some people don't have kids and can

practice. I mean, there's a million

reasons why

uh, okay, why some people are going to

be better at sports than others, and

it's not fair. But there's no bigger

divide. There's no bigger single

predictor of success than sex.

if you're, you know, especially if

you're at the elite level and everybody

is similarly trained. Um there's just no

evidence that females could do could

match. So ridiculous this claim and

people are making it that um women could

match men if they just had the same

opportunities

uh in terms of training and support.

There's no evidence for that. there was

a after title nine there was a large

increase in female performance relative

uh to males but this plateaued I think

um in the I can't remember I don't want

to say exactly when but this plateaued

many years ago the uh sex difference so

it's women are still you know doing a

little bit making small improvements

relative to men but there's no way that

um there's no evidence that the gap is

closing it seems to have pretty much

stabilized

And depending on the sport, you know,

like a 2% to 20% difference, some it

depends on the sport, but it's it's such

a monumental

gap that there are thousands of high

school kids. I think it's thousands.

Sorry, I don't want to get the numbers

wrong. There are a lot of high school

boys who could beat the um female

Olympic champion in like most track and

field sports, for instance. So,

It's just you could Okay, so you could

take hormone levels. Okay, so suppose

you take hormone levels. Suppose you

take um

yeah, how would this even work? So you

could take somebody like Leah Thomas who

blocked um who's a male who's an adult

male. Leah blocked I'll say her, but I

people should keep in mind this is an

adult male blocked her uh testosterone.

So if he used hormone levels then it

would be completely fair for Leah Thomas

to compete against Riley Gaines. Okay.

Both of them, you know, exceeding have

all of the uh opportunities for training

and are both working hard

as hard as they can. And but Leah Thomas

has already gone through male puberty,

already has increased bone density,

already has height, already has

masculineized

um heart and lungs and all of these

advantages that don't go away. So, and

why should we just take hormone levels?

Why should we mess with the uh

categories that we have? Uh it just

doesn't seem fair because it only hurts

women. Um it is males.

>> One of one of the strange things about

this is like I have never heard a

professional female sports athlete ask

for this. the like the the people I've

heard

like that want to sort of change sports

are invariably like not even athletes,

right? Like they're not even people that

play sports professionally for a living.

They're like professors at a university

of some issue.

>> Yes. that. So if it were an organic

demand coming from within the sports

community, I mean, and of course at some

level one has to discount the Leah

Thomas' of of the world only because she

and I'll to be polite, I'm I'll use her

pronouns as well, but she is the

precisely the small sliver that stands

to benefit from this thing being

changed, right? She's one one

stakeholder in a world where you know

99% of the stakeholders are not really

going to benefit. Most men are never

going to transition anyway and no natal

female stands to benefit from these

categories being collapsed. So, and then

you have examples where like the best

women athletes in the world like Serena

Williams um you know was very was like I

can't you know you can go back and look

at the actual interview but she was like

why are people saying that the the women

could compete with the men like I I as

the best woman tennis player in the

world would not be able to compete with

the men

from that interview and why do why do I

don't need this to be the case Like I'm

I'm perfectly happy being the best

female tennis player in the world.

>> And she wants to compete against women.

>> Yeah. Which is the best. And it's not

fair to have to compete against men. And

you're right. It's people who have no

skin in the game

>> um or or men who are advocating for

this. And it is very annoying as a woman

to have males who identify as females

say guilting women and gaslighting women

and and everyone else saying you guys

are bigots because males want to join

your female category and you're not

letting them so you're a bigot um or

you're a trans phobe and you're not even

allowed to have the conversation. That

is ridiculous in my view. It doesn't

mean that there aren't people who are

frustrated like trans women in

particular or trans girls frustrated

about

um not being able to compete, but I

don't think they should be barging into

the female category. It's it's

inconsiderate

and wrong. And also biologically there's

like just tons of evidence that it

doesn't if you block testosterone, yes,

you're going to lose some of your

capacity, but um you don't get into the

female category by picking out little

pieces that matter and then saying,

"Okay, maybe now you can have a chance

as long as you're not." It just doesn't

make sense and it would never work. And

I I Neil Degrass Tyson is completely

wrong on this.

>> Okay, last question. What is the most

interesting

unanswered question in the field of

hormonal research?

>> Oh wow.

So this is a really good question and

I think the area where we need more work

is on what I was talking about before

and how

first of all testosterone

motivates uh exactly how it motivates

particular male behaviors and the

dynamic nature of testosterone and how

it interacts with the nervous system. So

this is the neuroendocrine system. So

for instance is uh there's some evidence

that testosterone is having an effect on

dopamine in specific in in um

reproductively relevant situations and

we have these some clear evidence in

non-human animals and it would be great

to understand more about how this works

in humans and also we really don't have

enough research on the role of estrogen

um in male and female behavior. behavior

and I think that would be super

interesting because all estrogen uh

comes from androgen precursors. So

testosterone is converted in people who

lift a lot of weights and are trying to

get really big know that the enzyme

aromatase converts testosterone into

estrogen because they try to block it.

They take aromatase blockers.

Um, so what we don't know is if you like

I take some testosterone as part of my

HRT. I take estrogen, progesterone, and

testosterone. What we don't know is the

extent to which in women our

testosterone is acting through estrogen

and acting on estrogen receptors or if

it's acting as testosterone on androgen

receptors. We don't know a lot of that

in men either whether male testosterone,

you know, when is it acting as

testosterone via androgen receptors or

um after it's been converted to estrogen

in um estrogen receptors. There's also

some interesting research going on that

is look it's more clinical about the

relationship between testosterone and um

obesity and diabetes and it's uh

potential for treatment in some uh

metabolic disorders. Also there's mood.

What is the relationship between low

testosterone and depression? Um,

yeah. And then in women, just what

exactly is testosterone doing in terms

of behavior? I think we really, the

research that we do have shows it's, as

far as I can tell, it's not doing the

same thing as it's doing in men. It

doesn't react in similar ways to um

competition, etc. Uh, so we need more

work in women.

All right, Carol Hooven, before I let

you go, tell my audience where they can

buy your book, what it's called, and how

they can follow you online.

>> Oh, here it is. All right, so my book, I

just happen to have it right here, is

called Tea, the story of testosterone,

the hormone that d that um dominates and

divides us. And uh you can get it, you

know, anywhere you get books, Amazon.

And um I am on Twitter at Hoolet H O VL

E T. I'm trying to do Instagram. Um

so maybe I'm I I think I'm Carol.hooven

on Instagram, but I still Yeah. have to

figure it out.

>> Awesome.

>> Thank you.

>> All right. Thank you so much, Carol.

Thanks for coming. It's been a pleasure.

Thank you.

>> All right.