How Prosus CEO Builds Winning Tech Culture | Fabricio Bloisi

If you are an American, it's so easy to raise more money and you have many people making bets and taking risks. But

if you look to Brazil or Europe or Africa, you don't have a lot of capital and this capability of learning fast and hiring and moving faster.

>> This week we have Brazil's 2025 person of the year, Fabricio Bloise. He led one of Latin America's most valuable tech startups, IU, and is now the CEO of Process, the global tech group behind

some of the biggest internet businesses outside the US. As a tech company, we run culture, management model and innovation globally. So we select

innovation globally. So we select people, we train them, we put all of them together, we share every week what's happening in all the world with all the leaders. Tell all the others leaders of the companies around the

world what is working and share that great companies in Brazil or even in Europe, they don't have the ecosystem that like Google or Microsoft or Meta have here in US.

>> Process builds and scales tech platforms everywhere. Technology is growing fast.

everywhere. Technology is growing fast.

The next wave of tech leadership isn't about copying the US, but about building systems that work everywhere.

>> I think the Americans sometimes underestimate what is happening outside.

The Chinese are not copying. They are

innovating. To operate a big business with thousands of people and millions of orders per month, they have to be super good to do that.

>> I'm Enrique Dubrass and welcome to HD and HD.

This episode is brought to you by Brex, a brand I'm proud to have co-founded and one that's shaped by the same journey many of you are on. Brex has everything startups and fast growing companies need to make every dollar count. From modern

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Brexit, thank you so much for doing this, man.

>> Hello. Big pleasure to be here with you.

>> Really appreciate it. I'm I was actually trying to remember the first time we met and I think it was actually at one of Veronica's dinners.

>> Exactly.

>> Yeah.

>> I think Veronica's junior Veronica connected us many years ago.

>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And uh

you know I remember because I food was just I guess kind of starting out and I I remember asking him about he's like oh yeah it's like one of these like seven businesses that we do and it came from

this like other mobile company you know like and I was like oh wow this guy can do a lot you know this is like a real serial entrepreneur.

>> Yes. Now I'm doing like 120. So that

time was just 10. So

>> it was easy. Um but maybe maybe take us a little bit of the for the story right like how did it all start out? Yeah,

actually I'm the founder of a company called Maui. So I'm from Baya in Brazil.

called Maui. So I'm from Baya in Brazil.

I traveled to S. Paulo, study computer science and created this company just when I graduated called Maui and we were doing uh mobile content. So services in mobile phones.

>> How did that start? How did you have that idea? Like was it your first job

that idea? Like was it your first job after college?

>> Yes. I never worked in other company that was not the mi and everything we did before. and uh in Bay I I was always

did before. and uh in Bay I I was always passionate about Bill Gates's story and how he created Microsoft and computers and computer science. I'm a programmer

since I was 8 years old. So I always had this dream of I'm going to create a very big global tech company since I was 14 15.

>> Wow.

>> Then I moved it to S. Paulo to study computer science. I created my company

computer science. I created my company but the idea was not uh specifically mobile content. I I started iterating

mobile content. I I started iterating and having ideas and I I said I'm going to create a very big company and uh I think one year after we everything started on mobile but by that time it

was like SMS and WAP this kind of thing.

>> Yeah. So maybe give us some context of like what was the technology what what year is this what was the technology going on at the time? It was around 2000 mobile by that time. It was sending text

message and receiving a ringtone or participating in a chat or a dating app or receiving news in your in your mobile phone. Text news. For those who are

phone. Text news. For those who are younger, like maybe explain like why that happened, you know, like what was the how were phones back then and like what were people >> like phones only did one thing, talk

>> and then by 2000 there was this disruptive crazy technology where now you could receive some kind of text in the phone but like 150 characters. So

really a short message and then I started a whole business doing that.

>> It was like Twitter before Twitter.

>> Exactly. Actually, Twitter was 150 because SMS was 150 characters.

>> Oh, really? I didn't even know that.

>> Twitter started more or less the same time. A little a few years later.

time. A little a few years later.

>> Yeah.

>> And then Twitter started on SMS. That's why Twitter has the the limitation.

>> Oh, I didn't even know that.

>> So, since you gave the Twitter reference, that was the idea. We send

messages and content and news, everything on short messages in the phone. And uh this company it's funny today the company is very big like I don't know we have

40,000 people in total in pro and food only is like 90,000 people but by that time we were like five or 10 people we started without money without venture capital so it was like work sell

something get some money and create some products and many people think so I have an idea and I grow that's not like that I almost bank corrupt many times I

really didn't have any money besides like keep the company running and it took a few years but after a few years we started to really learn how to

develop and to uh innovate and create products and we started to grow a lot in the mobile content.

>> What was the first product that like like blew up?

>> I think it was around ringtones. Rington

was something that by that time what was super innovative 2003 or four and we had ringtones and So how did people like find out that like about this like how did it even work? Uh

>> you you had a website and you make marketing and people went website and they did some very innovative thing that is change the ringtone of your mobile phone and put some music there >> but you needed to access a website to do

that >> in the beginning. Yes. So yeah that was >> and then you just put your phone number and then something showed up >> something like that. Yes.

>> Okay.

>> And also chat or news. So you subscribe to receive the daily news in your mobile. And how did the billing work?

mobile. And how did the billing work?

>> And then you were charged in your mobile phone bill.

>> Oh, so the carrier the mobile phone carrier you had to do partnerships with all these carriers.

>> Yes.

>> How did that go?

>> Very difficult. Very very difficult.

>> Actually the carriers used to take like 80% of the revenue.

>> What exactly?

>> Wow.

>> And now actually you just described how everything happened. First we created

everything happened. First we created many products. we started to grow but I

many products. we started to grow but I realized I'm not going to get to my 10 billion or hundred billion dollar company if I'm partner with the carriers because it was very difficult to grow

with the mobile carriers so after a few years like the company had like a 100 people it was doing a few million dollars but I said it's not enough I think we are very good innovation very

good in creating product very good in culture but we want to create a global leader so I need to reinvent inv my company and I started to using that knowledge in terms of people innovation

model culture to build a new product where I could create my hundred billion dollar company and that's why when I met you I had my first company Maui and I

started to create many other business to use that knowledge that we had to create business that were much bigger.

>> What were the core capabilities you think you built then?

>> Culture and management model. So we are very good in aligning people in the final direction and operating the company well as a ambidextric company ambidextrous company a company that at

the same time is very innovative like a a startup should be but at the same time is very disciplined so we can manage how we are going to grow our objectives

really align the whole company but at the same time be as innovative as a a very young startup. So doing this at the same running the company well is a core

capability. The second one was

capability. The second one was technology innovation and product as a computer science. I was very focused in

computer science. I was very focused in creating good products and evolving and testing new technologies. So we used these two capabilities and I started to create new business and I created many new business in payment in logistics

contents for kids called play kids. We

got like I think 50 60 million uh uh uh customers just doing this mobile content for kids called play kids. And one of these many companies we created was we acquired I food. Actually I food was a

20 people company doing food delivery just like in a in a small part of S.

Paulo.

>> So sorry before we go there because I food I know I want to go super deep there. I want to understand all this

there. I want to understand all this part a little bit more detail. So

>> sure.

>> How did you say like we were really good at like management? How did you like learn that? You know,

learn that? You know, >> I learned the same way we learn the things in the company today. Testing,

doing it wrong, uh not being good enough, but studying who are the benchmarks, who are the very good companies and then going there, talking to them, learning and improving our own

company. So, it's funny to talk about

company. So, it's funny to talk about that because today we are known globally because we have a very good management model and culture. But 15 years ago we

were very bad on that. Our conclusion is we have to improve a lot if you want to grow. One of my benchmarks in terms of

grow. One of my benchmarks in terms of innovation was Silicon Valley. So I used to come a lot to Silicon Valley to learn and I really copied the idea of learning

fast iterating lean but at [snorts] the same time I was a big fan of uh 3G and Palo Leman and so I think we could build

a mix between and a Silicon Valley company and I think this ambidextrous combination is very powerful.

>> So what are the what are elements of each do you take?

Think big. Uh be ready to change completely every year. Empower people

and put people in the center of everything.

Be ready to to understand that the world has technology cycles that are going to change completely who are the leaders.

So be really open to the new and the innovation but at the same time the discipline to set aggressive goals, monitor it in

details and confront the most brutal facts. That's the way we talk

facts. That's the way we talk internally. It's from Jin Collins book.

internally. It's from Jin Collins book.

I think one of the things we do well is when things are not working, we are very direct. Brazilians are known for being a

direct. Brazilians are known for being a little how can I say soft in the way we communicate. We are try to be nice and

communicate. We are try to be nice and polite but we confront the brutal facts when things are not working. We say it's not working. We tell people it's not

not working. We tell people it's not working. We give very difficult feedback

working. We give very difficult feedback and also we make all the change. We kill

products. We kill we adjust the direction. We change the people in

direction. We change the people in charge of what's not working. So this

discipline to say I know where I'm going and I'm going to adjust the company as much as necessary until I succeed.

combine it to disruptive innovation.

That's what make us started to really grow.

>> And do you think there's something about the kind of like ABMV model that like doesn't work into tech companies and something that tech companies do you think if it were there probably wouldn't work?

>> I think balancing the ambidextrous company is very challenging. Most of the entrepreneurs that founded a tech company, they are much more like I'm creative and I don't like the

accountants, not the finance, not the the managers because they prefer to have this flexibility of keeping doing things differently. Most of people in more

differently. Most of people in more mature company they are very good in precision in planning and delivering what is planned. I think the

power of what we have been doing is exactly do both and it's difficult because you have to usually the people are different they prefer one they

prefer another and usually they don't get along well the people that are more creative they say do you know that's manager too much financial accounting I

don't like it and the more uh resultsdriven people they say ah that guy doesn't deliver what he promised creative is just a dreamer. I think what

we could do that's why we talk a lot about being an ambidextrous company is that we can have the both people really working together and the way we do that

is reinforcing all the time. If you are very good in discipline and delivering we are going to profit this year maybe next year but we will be disrupted in

two or three years.

If you are the most creative founder, you can everyone loves your company. You

can start to grow but you are going to go out of the company because other bigger companies are going to invest more and grow through marketing through good execution. So I try to sell to

good execution. So I try to sell to everyone that we need to be open to different and complimentary skills and I think because we have very good talents

on those skills even that they don't like each other they don't think the other they really cannot act as the other type when they really work

together we can create success for 20 30 years that's that's what I'm trying to do >> makes sense makes sense I I really like this like ambidextrous kind of analogy.

I think it like encapsulates well the tension inside like a lot of these these companies like are there any kind of like processes, rituals or or you know something that you guys do internally

that like probably can make this kind of like more tangible >> a lot. I think exactly you use the word we use there the rituals of the company

is what creates our competitive advantage. The way we start the year

advantage. The way we start the year saying let's think big and for two three four weeks we dream very big. We dream

how can we be the best company in the world and we set the bar very very high.

Nothing is impossible. Then we spend more two three weeks putting people together for one two weeks where we align everyone. We align the partners

align everyone. We align the partners and we create plans to everyone. So

really create a environment where everyone is working together with the same goals and the same purpose. After

we do that lots of discipline to every month check what is working and what's not working face the brutal effects. So

I think this combination of a environment that values people put them together and later have the discipline to make them work well together even talking

about what's not working and require a fast correction. These elements first

fast correction. These elements first thinking big have the discipline to cascade and then monitor with a lot of disciplined execution creates the rituals that to to make the company

work.

>> That's that's awesome. So it's like a you have this like you know the dream big part is like hey let's set the bar like what would be an example? Is it

like a numeric goal? Is it like something like a little bit more subjective? What like give me some like

subjective? What like give me some like what does that look in practice? I guess

>> we are in 2025.

Doing that in 2025 means we know the world's going to change completely. We are in the middle of a

completely. We are in the middle of a technological cycle and the company that are going to succeed in three or five years are going to be completely different. So we spend some time asking

different. So we spend some time asking the best people in the world that talks about disruption to create a vision about the future. Our current vision includes we are going to have aente

companies. We are going to have LLMs

companies. We are going to have LLMs predicting how people purchase better than they know themselves. We are going to have embodied the agents life

assistants until AGI agentic organizations until AGI. So we spend sometimes really dreaming about the next five years. And after we do that and the

five years. And after we do that and the whole team of managers are really seeing the same future, then we really break it down in how we are going to be exceptional in one year and in six

months and in one month and then next week and then the team is really know each other and know the dream enough. So

we can work separately each one because we are a big company now. We have 40,000 people. So we can have managers each one

people. So we can have managers each one going to a different country but they know what's the dream and they can really cooperate. So I think one of the

really cooperate. So I think one of the amazing thing of this kind of ritual is I to me what kill big companies are the silos and each vice president go to his

place and do what he want want to do because they have the budget the company is big so when I really put people together to dream and then to detail how we are going to get there we kill those

silos and we create a strong sense of group and that's what makes the company run faster.

>> So this is awesome. Um, so going back to the story, so okay, you had these like you were generating cash flow from this core like SMS business or something like that.

>> How big was that business, you know, when you kind of started doing these acquisitions?

>> Wow. It was very big by that by the time, but today I think it looks I don't know $20 million per year, $30 million per year >> in revenues.

>> Yes.

>> But it was very profitable, I imagine.

>> Yes. $3 million per year. Four or five, something like that. So how how did you have like the money to get and go invest in all these other businesses or buy I food like how did you finance it? We we

had a few investors ver we have also pro now I'm CEO of pro he was my first investor many years ago but also we we

were being profitable and we never uh spend first and then one two three five years later we we we were very how can I say we had a lot of discipline on on investing so we created many business

through really technology and founders mentality of we call it jet skis today that has that it means have like a three four people team to test new things

until we find something that work and only then we scale. So we tested many ideas we tested many of the smartphone content ideas and we tested selling

tickets like event bright some kind of ticket master and we started testing selling food on on the mobile phone and uh and also we we start to think about

what else we can sell of the real world in smartphones. It's fun that today this

in smartphones. It's fun that today this is the everyone buy things on smartphones but in 2008 or nine or 10 this was a very different

idea people are not buying anything on their smartphones. So we said the future

their smartphones. So we said the future is buy everything today smartphones. So

we try created two or three or four business and also with one $2 million we started to acquire small companies. I

think I the first investment was like $2 million. Then we acquired for like $5

million. Then we acquired for like $5 million. It was was cheap by the time.

million. It was was cheap by the time.

>> So how many businesses you think you guys had at at this point in time? Kind

of >> around 10 business.

>> 10 businesses. And then if if we look back now, I food obviously became like massively dominant, right? Like you know how big is food today?

>> Selling $20 billion per year only in Brazil.

>> Yeah. $20 billion a year only in Brazil food. So in RII it's like it would be

food. So in RII it's like it would be like doing >> it's more than >> probably like as a percent of GDP it would be probably be bigger than Door Dash here or something right?

>> Yeah. Percent of GDP is closer to 1% is like 0.7 0.8% of the Brazilian GDP.

>> Yeah. So like if you were think about that in the US you know that would be a like it would be like a 300 billion GMV company here or something like that, right? Like it's huge. Um, and then do

right? Like it's huge. Um, and then do any of the other ones like kind of work or they just didn't work in comparison to I food? You know what I mean? Like

what I'm actually many of them worked.

The problem is that I food >> so big.

>> Exactly. It's not a problem. Actually,

I'm very happy. I food is doing so well that many times we don't talk about the others but but but interesting thing let me tell you a very nice story about distension on founder.

>> I am a founder. I manage companies. Now

I'm also I see myself as a founder in a very big company today process has 40,000 people but >> all the way I manage the company is the same as I did before but let me tell you

a little about the tension I like my partners they really had to help me to run the company better I was running m very well and I had 10 business but I

food was growing faster than everything it was not the bigger business and then it was not my idea actually it was pro's idea Now I'm pro but I was not by the

time they told me look M is very good in innovation in culture in people you have the best people you innovate more than everyone that we know but if food is the

business growth that has more potential so they invited me because I had 10 CEOs reporting to me why don't you become IU

CEO and it was not obvious to me and I said but things are good here I'm happy manage all the 10 companies And then I said, but I'm going to listen to you. Then I became CEO of Maui and I

to you. Then I became CEO of Maui and I food at the same time.

>> I became CEO of both and I could grow a lot. I the fact that I became so today I has more than 90% market share in Brazil.

>> 90.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. uh but by the time I became much more oriented to people to innovation to management model to a culture of a tech company became less of a food company

and more a tech company and uh we started to innovate a lot in food is not a food delivery company we're a food delivery we are a a grocery business

pet shop and then also fintech we have a credit card to buy foods we have lending for restaurants we more five or seven business. I food is like 10 business and uh we started to

innovate a lot and I would grow from when I invest in food we were doing 20,000 orders per month. 25.

>> Did you buy 100% up front or No.

>> No about 30% then 50 then 70 then 100.

>> Oh wow.

>> Yeah. This month I put did 160 million orders.

>> Wow.

>> So we grow we grow from 25,000 to 160 million. And do you think that I food

million. And do you think that I food did anything different and better compared to the other companies in the Maui portfolio or was it because you were more involved in the end? Like I

remember you guys were in some pretty big categories and I food obviously like became super dominant. The other ones there were other players that kind of did super well. Like what do you think you know what were the learnings?

>> I think the potential of the food delivery business executing very well was bigger than the others. This makes a difference. But actually we had a

difference. But actually we had a messaging business that we sold for a few billion eyes. So it was a it was a good thing. The problem that I food is

good thing. The problem that I food is like so big that a few >> what what messaging business is this?

>> It was called uh wavy.

>> Wait, what did it do?

>> Uh messaging like uh in the beginning short message then WhatsApp. So it

connect companies to their CRM through messaging.

>> Ah okay. So you sold that to whom?

>> Forgot not the name of the company.

Yeah.

>> But we sold them first. We we merged and then later we sold because the company IPOed became public >> but it was a success story.

>> Super success.

>> Yeah. We got lots of money. We sold in the end. We got became shareholder of a

the end. We got became shareholder of a public company. In the end we sold those

public company. In the end we sold those shares like I don't know a few years ago but we made a lot of money there. We had

a payments company called Zup and another company called Simpla that is the number one company for events in Brazil. So if you buy >> it became the number one events.

>> Yeah. Exactly. So this company both of them today we merged with food and they are part of food now. We did it like last year >> but both of them are very successful and big companies and good companies.

>> So it's just the comparison to i food that is the the hard part.

>> These two companies are super good.

>> Yeah.

>> And we have others. We have play kit with 50 million users in the end. We

merger them with another company doing the same thing in US. Forgot the name too. You see the problem of the the size

too. You see the problem of the the size of five foot.

>> Yeah.

>> But we had like five or six of the 10 companies. Five or six did well, but one

companies. Five or six did well, but one became a multi-billion dollar business.

>> So you think it was it was it wasn't like an execution difference. It was

just the kind of like poor business quality and potential.

>> I think the execution of most of them were very good.

>> Makes sense.

>> But how I see that uh I think the way that you described is great. There is

difference in the potential for each business. But at the same time because

business. But at the same time because we executed very well 10 different bets we also increased the chance of succeeding in many of them and increase

this chance of having like a real big winner. So I really believe that the

winner. So I really believe that the quality of the execution makes the whole difference but it's not enough. I think

that's the conclusion >> and and I guess like you know how do you trade off like the traditional management idea that you need to have focus with this idea of like diversifying your bets.

>> Amazing question and I think this is part of the management model and the culture that we have. How do we talk about that? We have to when we are

about that? We have to when we are scaling a business to prioritize five, seven, 10 things and the whole company should know what are the priorities.

Having discipline and showing clearly the priority and showing to everyone makes like everyone work together. Many

times one or two of these 10 goals is to innovate or experiment.

Inside this goal the mindset is different. Let's do 100 hypothesis

different. Let's do 100 hypothesis tests. But they are usually one, two,

tests. But they are usually one, two, three, four weeks of work. You should it should be ship fast get numbers conclude

something and you are open to completely change your direction. So we call it jet skis like testing things fast. So we

have like a boat or a big boat and it moves you slower. We cannot like do crazy things but we can always have smaller groups with like usually two three four people that we have

hypothesis we test we execute and we learn. So when we describe this way you

learn. So when we describe this way you can see that if you are in the phase of discovery you should open your mind test

many things and learn but the most important thing is to learn.

When you learn what works then your mind has to shift to now I have to scale. So

I have to reduce the number of priorities reduce focus much more put a different kind of people in scaling talk about marketing and finance at the same time

that we are scaling we always have some goals that are keep innovating and inside these goals test 100 things very cheap very fast and learn fast but then

how do you deal with the like dependencies of the uh I guess the test because I imagine like you know you guys are going to build some new thing to test on if food like some other team

needs to like coordinate for like dependency because some other systems involved and blah blah and then that person like how do you like deal with like all that that's why the magic I

said on balancing ambidext true culture what you just described is related to a more mature company if you need to innovate and iterate just like a startup you cannot have dependence that's why we

call it jetkis we create a five people team they can use the data but they cannot change or commit the main systems. They cannot change the main

product. Sometimes to have the kind of

product. Sometimes to have the kind of flexibility if you need to do something uh with the main product we say this jet ski is the owner of a city. So I has

2,000 cities. It's quite common that we

2,000 cities. It's quite common that we take 10 of them and we say this jet keys run an app that only runs on this city and then they can do whatever they want

on that city.

So to be fast and innovate, kill the dependence and let people be entrepreneurs and test and make and fail until they find what works.

>> Oh, very interesting. Okay. So you think about the system already. So these bets can be completely independent.

>> They are like a startup. You put five people and they can do whatever they want until they succeed and they are going to fail 20 times before they succeed and it's okay.

>> Yeah. Very very interesting.

>> But they cannot touch the billing system. They cannot touch touch the

system. They cannot touch touch the marketing systems because this one you need the kind of discipline in this the machine. Exactly.

machine. Exactly.

>> Very very interesting.

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>> If you look at different industries in um Brazil, they kind of became like very competitive. So, for example, if you get

competitive. So, for example, if you get payments, right, like you have stone, you have pags, you have like a bunch of different companies >> and you know e-commerce, you know, is like bunch of different companies. How

is it that I food was able to get like such a you know big market share of the of the ecosystem?

>> There is competition there. There is two Chinese companies that just entered the market.

>> You have 90%.

>> Yeah. Yeah. They just entered like the last month.

>> So there there is compet a lot of competition right now.

>> But there was rappy also right like last.

>> That's what I'm going to say. Actually

people think if food is very big for some structural reason. Actually no. We

were when I invested in iPhone if it was very small and we have it was like the number the third or the fourth company in the country. So it's not the number one >> and food delivery.

>> Yeah.

>> What was it? What else were there?

>> Uh there was other three or four. Oh

what are the names? Henui was one name.

>> Oh yeah I can't remember.

>> Another one was um I forgot but there was many others and then we executed well. We have the entrepreneurial

well. We have the entrepreneurial behavior that makes companies grow faster. Patient people working a lot,

faster. Patient people working a lot, testing a lot, learning a lot, having very big goals, sharing the benefit with everyone that are behaving really like

owners and we create this culture of innovating a lot but have lots of discipline being aggressive in the growth, aggressive in marketing and taking care of the customer. So we had

four or five companies. We became the number one. Then Uber decided to enter

number one. Then Uber decided to enter in Brazil and create a lot of tension for us. Uber is a global leader. But our

for us. Uber is a global leader. But our

mindset was we can play against Uber and we can win. And

we played very well against Uber. Uber

left Brazil a few years later and when we said less less uh players then actually Happy entered and Happy raised $2 billion. I don't know if you remember

$2 billion. I don't know if you remember that.

>> I remember Bank. Yeah, they're like >> soft bank said $2 billion too happy to fight I food. How did you fight that off?

>> Technology, passionate people. I think

many people raise lots of money and they started to lose the discipline of spending because it's other people money. It's VC money. We're always a

money. It's VC money. We're always a company with a owner. Not only me, me, but the mindset of the owner, the

mindset of we don't spend money, destroy money. We

are very disciplined and the quality of the technology and the products and the quality of the marketing and I think we really outperformed all those competitors. Then we had a a good

competitors. Then we had a a good position in the last few years. Now we

have more competition and we are ready to move faster, take more risk, improve product, keep an amazing team and uh and actually as you know now I'm running pro

we just acquired just eat takeaway the biggest one in Europe we also have this one of the biggest in India Swiggy we have a big participation in delivery

hero so we have now a much bigger thing than I think we have some Brazilians here listening to Brazilians sometimes has have uh they think we are not good enough. Brazilians many times think that

enough. Brazilians many times think that but the technology we developed in iPhone today is being used in many countries in the world >> and I'm I'm very excited about that.

>> That's awesome. Um yeah know it's an amazing case. I had um you know Will

amazing case. I had um you know Will from Deliveroo in the podcast before and >> you know it was it was hard to fight Uber you know and like fight Door Dash and and all that and you know they had

some other competitors but in Brazil you guys were able to like do it. Um but

maybe like let's talk a little bit about how was that transition from uh I food to pros like what happened? I remember

just seeing the news. I'm like what?

>> It's funny people say that now you're not a founder anymore. You are an investor or you are nothing changed in my life. I'm still the same founder

my life. I'm still the same founder doing all the crazy innovation and moving fast and testing new things. So

how was this change? It was similar when I moved from Maui to food. Remember I

told you that Maui was had a better culture and execution and innovation and I moved to food and I rebuilt that then I was running for I don't know seven or eight years seven years I think I was

doing quite well and I was very concentrated in making foodund billion dollar company that was our goal that is our goal for actually and then one day

pro called me the the board of pro and said what about come here and run everything we have like 100 companies now we getting closer to $15 billion in

revenue so it's a it's a bigger company all around the world we are a big shareholder of 10 cent that is an amazing company we have things in ninja Europe and my first reaction is I am not

a portfolio manager that's just like put the $5 million here or 10 there and wait five years but my dream is to create the best tech company outside US a company that is all

around the world and innovates a lot as good as the best companies in California. I love this dream and if I

California. I love this dream and if I can do that in process I go tomorrow and the guys told me that's no we are calling you because we want process to be different a little. So I confirmed

are you sure? They said yes. Then I took an airplane and and moved here a few weeks later and it was a great experience. I think prous it has been a

experience. I think prous it has been a great experience pro for me. I'm

learning a lot now. I have business in Ninja and now around Europe and Africa and really learn about this global scenario. It's amazing. Very few as you

scenario. It's amazing. Very few as you said Brazilians are running tech business all around the world. You have

people from US, people from India maybe but Brazilians is >> very very very rare.

>> Very small group.

>> Yeah. So I'm learning a lot. That's why

I'm here because I can learn and do better. And what how would you describe

better. And what how would you describe what pros is? I guess

>> so this is not a picture is a movie. Let

me explain you why. And it connects to your last question.

When I arrived the process was much more managing this portfolio with many investments around the world. Little

connection and worse than that little uh synergies between all the companies.

That's was how what pro was today.

process is a tech company focus in just three regions that is India, Europe and Latin America and as a tech company we run culture management model and

innovation globally. So we select

innovation globally. So we select people, we train them, we put all of them together, we share every week what's happening in all the world with all the leaders, everything that work in

a small company in Ninja or in Romania or in London, we say, "Oh my god, this is working well." Tell all the others leaders of the companies around the world what is working and share that

because we have this I I think great companies in Brazil or even in Europe, they don't have the ecosystem that like Google or Microsoft or Meta have here in US.

What I changed this process to be is like a tech company that has a very big muscle in terms in terms of development and innovation. So what we are doing AI

and innovation. So what we are doing AI today is like cutting edge AI as very few companies can do that around the world. So I transformed process from

world. So I transformed process from more of a manager manager of investments to a tech group that is really betting

to operate the best uh e-commerce in the world through AI and innovate and have a big impact in the products we are creating the technology we are creating culture change completely the focus

innovation in speed in experimentation in risk and I'm very confident we are going to do good things >> what do you how do you choose what to centralize and what to leave it at to

the companies themselves.

>> Great question. I what I don't do I think big companies they say that's how we operate. We have this process

we operate. We have this process everyone has to follow this kill all the smaller companies and kill the innovation and the grit and the passion of the startups.

That's not how we do what we do is we have a big vision of the future. Our big

vision requires exceptional execution, exceptional innovation and exceptional people. When we share this big vision,

people. When we share this big vision, many of the companies say, "Wow, this vision is amazing and I can contribute."

And the vision includes saying your company are going to be the best in the world what we are doing. Our technology

are going to be the best in the world in how to treat customers or partners or uh the interface that we are using with the customers or how we use AI.

When you have a big vision, you start to deliver that big vision. Everyone wants

to go along because people want to win and want to be part of a winning team.

So instead of I say that's what you have to do, we try to define a vision and invite everyone to run together with us or faster than us and build this vision

together.

So many of the things that we are doing in the center the companies are not replicating because we're not making a process and asking everyone to replicate.

But a few things a few things I say I centrally say for example being the best in your region in AI is a requirement but don't come here and just follow the

process. You have to hire the amazing

process. You have to hire the amazing people. You have to create your software

people. You have to create your software but we have all the knowledge open for you. So the best managers they take all

you. So the best managers they take all the knowledge they learn everything and they run like crazy to be the best let's

say in India some people say I don't care and sometimes we we we we own many companies when the people say I don't

care we don't try to enforce the process we change the management because I want management that say I really am going to be the best in the world and sometimes people ask me but I'm

minority many companies there are many companies that we are minority investors and people say but how do you enforce that this minority investment the they

are going to to really have the greed to be the best in the world in something it's super simple if your vision is good and you are really pushing for

exceptional execution the best founders in my experience they say wow that is good I can have 10% in a And if they say how what we are doing what we call large commerce model how we

are using AI to understand better preference of customers people say I want to do that please open everything to me we are going to copy that and if a

minority company says no I don't want it's super simple sell I don't want to be partner of someone that says I don't care about how to use the best in the in

the world so either way it works would you consider yourself a conglomerate. Is

that a fair word to describe you guys or No, >> I see myself as a tech company.

>> Yeah.

>> That has many tech companies that own many tech companies and we work together. I

together. I >> I guess like my my my question was because I was trying to I'm curious if you studied other companies that have similar characteristics um that potentially grew through acquiring or

investing in different companies around the world. Have you studied them? What

the world. Have you studied them? What

did you learn? What are the other companies that you kind of >> I study many of them. Many of them are conglomerates. I just think that this is

conglomerates. I just think that this is a old name for old companies. That's why

I don't like it very much.

>> But uh many of them uh first we are in US, we are today in New York.

>> The model that I'm trying to run work sometime less here. But I think the market here if you are an American listen to us it it's going to make less

sense of what we are doing because here we have so much capital so much it's so easy to raise more money and you have many people making bets and taking risks and maybe that's why we have so many

amazing companies here in US but if you look to Brazil or Europe or Africa or India or even Southeast Asia you don't have a lot of capital and this

capability of learning fast and hiring and moving faster. So being a a company that have this ability to test a lot and

when something goes well you double down or invest much more it's a competitive advantage I think more outside of US

much more than here in US and if if you look to China for example you have many companies like 10 central liab that they are have many many business

connected to them many in case of tensent thousands, hundreds, Alibaba, the same thing. If you look to South Korea or to many areas in in Southeast

Asia, you see also or or even Japan this benefit of the scale of working together with uh uh companies where you can have some synergies.

>> Yeah. Know it's super interesting. I I

always describe to people that like why don't super apps exist in the US compared to the rest of the world and like capital is really a moat outside of the US, right? Like

>> you know here like you see a $100 million seed round every other week you know like you know $100 million in these other countries is >> I have an idea. So it's $100 million.

>> Yeah. Exactly.

>> That's not how life works.

>> Yeah.

>> Everywhere.

>> Anywhere but anywhere >> but California basically.

>> Exactly. But because there are so many important people here in the tech world.

Many of them really think that's how the world is. It's not.

world is. It's not.

>> It's not. Yeah. So I can do a $100 million bet anywhere in the world and this is a competitive advantage. And

when I do that together with uh an ecosystem uh this the last two weeks we had 60 people in Amsterdam we have AI house Amsterdam Amsterdam AI house where

we have every week five events per week where we just do people doing AI.

people in the valley can think well that's normal in the valley who does that in Amsterdam it's us we created that and the last two weeks we did a

internal event 60 people really creating a fine toning model so I took the Q model and we moved 60 people from now around around the world to create models

to each one of our companies using the best technology we have to personalize on e-commerce we had people from South Africa and India and everywhere

They don't have access to fly to a place and do that kind of training and learning and all the tools that we have.

So they have access of the best tools at the best way that we can do that in a lab in California and we just did it with 60 people from around the world for

10 days without sleep to do that. So you

see, we create this environment that people can learn from the best ones, know what works, and when something works, we can invest $100 million overnight.

That's what we are. And what are other kind of nuances that you think that the average American entrepreneur investor underappreciates about how it is to do business in the rest of the world?

>> Yeah, I think the Americans have amazing results. So I'm a big fan of the results

results. So I'm a big fan of the results of the Americans but many of them doesn't understand the dynamics around of lack of capital of lack of ecosystem

of u a very positive thing on the Americans they are much more risk-taking and want to do things and let's do it fast and get to a result now I'm a Dutch

Brazilian I am a little from Netherlands a little from Brazil and the mindset is a little different I've been criticizing ing a lot Europe not only criticizing but I'm being very

active going to Brussels and talking to all our politicians saying it's time to change the mindset to take risks move faster deregulate so it's very different

how the Europeans see that and the Americans I think the Americans sometimes underestimate uh what is happening outside so I give

you a few examples what the Chinese are doing AI is very good but it's quite common to to listen to people here say, "Yeah, they're just copying us." Maybe

not. [laughter] It's very good. Very

good. And I go to I travel all around the world every month in in Beijing or in Shenzhen. People are innovating

in Shenzhen. People are innovating really really really fast in robotics.

They're they're doing really really well. For example, China and AI. A

well. For example, China and AI. A

second example in India, Americans sometimes say, "No, we are just going to make our companies work there." But the dynamics is so different. The cost, the the purchasing power and the

capabilities of the economics of the business are so different. So we have a company called Mishu that's IPO in in December 10. They are amazing because

December 10. They are amazing because they sell I don't remember their number now. I don't remember what is public but

now. I don't remember what is public but like many hundreds millions of of items per month. number one in the country but

per month. number one in the country but their average order value is like it's less than $5. I don't know if what's the public number but it's less than $5. You

see a typical tech company in US they they work with a different word in terms of economics. So the quality of

of economics. So the quality of innovation inside Mish to operate with those costs is amazing. We have another company in there called Happy. They

double of the size of Uber there and most of their rides are on turkey. I

don't know. I don't remember how to say that in English. Maybe tuk tuk.

>> I think it's tuk tuk.

>> Yeah. So, so and they charge like the number is it's crazy. I'm from Brazil and it to me and to me the number is crazy. Like one cent it's less than one

crazy. Like one cent it's less than one cent of dollar for sure per ride and they are the double of the size of Uber and like millions >> less than one cent of their part. So

that what they they charge per per is unbelievable >> Wow.

>> It's a number that I think how we can operate on that.

>> So the mindset of operating a country with 1.5 billion people in the different economics. Many Americans doesn't

economics. Many Americans doesn't understand this >> how efficient you have to be.

>> Exactly. And and I'm saying the Chinese are not copying. They are innovating in the engine. They're not like just like

the engine. They're not like just like it's worst. they are innovating to

it's worst. they are innovating to operate a big business with thousands of people and millions of orders per month.

They have to be super good to do that.

So I think appreciating all of that is so what what kind of business do you think works well in emerging markets? So

because like clearly for example software and SAS is like basically doesn't exist outside of the US. Um

>> but in the US it's like one of the favorite kind of like or was at least till this year. Right.

>> Yeah. Last six months, I don't know what what is, >> but let's say for the last two decades, you know, like it's been like kind of like a favorite. Um, my intuition is always that like the the better ideas in

emerging market just like really big ideas that are kind of like, you know, they're not niche. They're kind of like core infrastructure for the country. But

I'm curious like what what are your views and like when you're looking at an idea outside of the US like you know what are the things that kind of make a good idea?

I I agree with you of the software SAS preference here when over the last one year that I'm in process I also look to that in comparison to what I see

elsewhere. I think the scale or the

elsewhere. I think the scale or the capital, the ability to invest capital in the long term and take risks here makes a very big difference because

imagine if you are on Europe or in a Brazil or in India many of these as software as a service companies they start operating they take many years to

become profitable they require you to invest to grow to grow internationally and lose a lot of money during this process.

I think US can is able to take risks on that and to fund that take more risks in the beginning and then bet to expand internationally faster than everyone

else. So I don't I don't think like a uh

else. So I don't I don't think like a uh the technology to do that you have in the valley and don't have in the world but there is this economics of the

capability to invest to create really big winners here that um enables us to have successful business on this area. I

think it's also because the US companies pay more for it, I guess, because like labor is more expensive versus I I heard some argument that like you know in India it's like just cheaper to have like five people doing a thing than it

is to kind of like do software.

>> Yeah.

>> But I don't know like what do you what do you think?

>> I think US you do software because it's more expensive and you have the ability to scale it in a format that it's going to become very cheap to everyone all around the world. Yeah.

>> Because you're trying to create really a global business. Yeah,

global business. Yeah, >> it's much more diff to to say in India for example, I'm going to create a global business. I just need $300

global business. I just need $300 million.

>> Yeah.

>> Like no one's going to give you $300 million in India to do that.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh so I think business that has like a a more local connection or requires to interact with the local institutions.

It's easier to create local champions when you require logistics or require payments. I know fintech is a business

payments. I know fintech is a business that >> big one in emerging markets. Exactly.

Big one. And you see you have the Brex case and the stone case. Now you have the New Bank case and even revolute also in Europe. So you see it's an area that

in Europe. So you see it's an area that uh Europe and Latin America. So see and in China also in Ninja also China has

the the wishet pay and the payments from Alibaba. In Ninja also you have the UPI

Alibaba. In Ninja also you have the UPI where you can do payments faster. So you

see in fintech that is more regulated that is more local and you need to consider much more the local connections you have many many global success cases

I think in the local commerce that's an area that we are coming from with five food also you require to have the local partnerships that you need to execute quite well locally and you have many

players around the world doing that well >> yeah makes makes a ton of sense um I I guess like what's been something that after you joined pros

that you're having to learn that you didn't have to learn before like what's a new skill and capability you're having to acquire for this job now?

>> Ah I'm learning a lot. I think the reason I'm there I'm here in process is to learn. I learned a lot in food in

to learn. I learned a lot in food in Brazil to create a very nice Brazilian business. But the beauty of going global

business. But the beauty of going global is learn a lot and I learn a lot going to for example India and China because they're innovating in ways that we are

not thinking about that in Europe nor in US nor in Latin America. So I really learn a lot about India and China.

Um to to me Europe is an amazing opportunity. So I'm very happy to to

opportunity. So I'm very happy to to have the opportunity to learn and also to influence Europe because you know Europe markets more or less the size of US a little less smaller now. It was the

same size 10 years ago now it's a little smaller 15% smaller but you have 20 trillion dollars in the top 10 companies here and maybe half trillion dollars or

$1 trillion in the top 10 companies in Europe. to understand what is the work

Europe. to understand what is the work ethics there and what people value and the culture and understand how to interact with them. Not only understand but then try to influence because I

think there is a big big opportunity there in Europe. I guess Europe is a good one like what what do you think is preventing more kind of like you know maybe trillion dollar European company. Well

>> yeah I guess Nova Nordis was almost there but you know I think it's >> which one? Nova Norrisk the >> GLP one >> don't remember their number now but they they're doing well what's preventing I

think there is an amazing report many people doesn't know here in US from Mario Draggy we we talk have you heard about it it's very very famous it's 20

year old now we call it draggy report but there is like another name like competitiveness in Europe so but you could call drag report he was former

central banker in Europe and uh he he he write like a 100 pages explaining what makes Europe moving slow and uh the president of European Commission said that's my strategic goal and I'm going

to change that and I think most of the politicians in Europe they agree we have to change so a few things at last I'm going to talk about work ethics but like

red tape Europe for 20 30 years they said we have an idea so let's start regulating and they put people together in Brussels and they create rules about

that new idea. It's crazy the way you have to talk about sustainability and AI and uh reporting on every single e-commerce have so many laws. Many

people say this is Brussels's fault. I

would say a more polymic thing. Yes,

it's Brussels fault too. But sometimes

the European people they are open to this bureaucracy. Many times I'm in a

this bureaucracy. Many times I'm in a meeting inside the company people say, "Yeah, let's let's check all the regulation. Let's see what is coming and

regulation. Let's see what is coming and say guys stop regulation. We're talking

about creating the future through AI.

First we create the future then we we understand how what is the regulation how we make it work because if you start saying let's read the the red tape before you develop the software you are

not going to create something amazing.

So I think there's excessive not only in Brussels but in the mindset on let's model the future before you create the future. But I think it's a big mistake.

future. But I think it's a big mistake.

But there is a second thing that maybe I couldn't see it from outside. European

Union is amazing but it's still 27 countries with their own legislation, their own politicians, >> culture, >> language >> and then you have on top of that some

bureaucracy that say you have to do everything considering the language and culture and requirements of each one of the 27 countries. So the reality is there's

countries. So the reality is there's there's a big thing called the 28th regime or EU Inc. that says we have to make sure that for startup for technology or for any business you

should register and follow one set of simplified law and you can sell in all 27 countries without having to adapt to all the local legislation. There is not

one single capital market either. So you

cannot like investing everywhere. And uh

and then there's something that I think it's a big mistake big big mistake is that the mindset in terms of consolidation or or the the competition authorities they really want to have in

each one of the 27 local companies competing. So Europe didn't consolidate

competing. So Europe didn't consolidate to have big telecom companies nor big banks nor big software companies. I just

we had two big food delivery company and the European Commission asked us to sell one of the two. So here in US you want to create a global leader in Europe the competition authorities ask you to

create companies in each country instead of understanding that the competition is not between Italy and France it's between Europe and US Latin America

India and China so >> it's like how do we create a local loser you know where like the Chinese and American ones have so much more money comes and like wins the market

>> and then you have five local losers that lose The good news is that the politicians clearly perceive that we need to change that. Hope it will be in Silicon Valley speed.

>> You did mention labor a lot too. That's

at least the one I I hear the most here in the US that like labor law in Europe makes it very complicated to hire and fire. And

fire. And >> I will get to the the work ethics was my last point.

>> Okay.

>> Uh labor law and labor mindset.

Uh firing is very difficult. Sometimes

you have to say you have to get to an agreement to the people to fire someone.

the people say, you know, I don't want to be fired. And then spend one year or >> debating if they're gonna be fired.

>> Yes. Then you have to pay for a lot to the people leave and people can think Yeah. because you have to preserve the

Yeah. because you have to preserve the jobs. It's a big mistake because you

jobs. It's a big mistake because you preserve the job and the company fail and then the company fire everyone.

Yeah.

>> Or the company doesn't grow. So how many jobs we created here in US because we have very successful tech companies, millions of jobs and trillions in value and in Europe you said I'm going to

preserve that five jobs and the company is not a winner. So there's a word ethics in terms of that and also a work work ethics in terms of really I think winning what we are doing that in

process is let me tell you the good thing there the level of smart people with very good education talking about disruptive industries and technology is

very high so you have the education to create the future leaders but you don't have the capital or the work ethics or the competition rules to to do that. So,

but in work ethics also sometimes we need to think as winners. If you are in in California, you live there, right?

>> I live here, >> but you used to live there before.

>> Yeah.

>> There is this thing here in New York too like I'm going to be the best in the world >> 100%.

>> Actually, you can meet a guy with like 25 years and and he's going to say I'm the best in the world on that and what you have with you know just me and my partner and we are the best in the world.

>> And this is normal, right?

>> Very normal.

This is this is the default.

In Europe sometimes you have the a very different work ethics of like I talk I have to talk about the regulation and what are my my benefits and how I reduce

my risk of being fired. So I think sometimes you need you miss the winning culture like forget the rest. I'm going

to be the best in the world because I'm going to work a lot all the time including nights and Saturdays and Sunday until I create something that transform the world.

Many times even companies in Europe doesn't think like that and I think pro is contributing aggressively saying we are here to create the leader in the world

and many people is leaving pro and it's part of life if they doesn't fit this culture but because we are reinforcing so aggressively that's our culture many

people is also joining process because they say that's what I want to build so I think we are in a moment of the full way the the is to say let's just keep

working but we are now in a moment to say Europe has to fight back hope pro is going to contribute a little with that too um for you know any potential kind

of a uh you know we we have a lot of uh people in finance listening and people who like to buy and trade stocks I know pros is a publicly listed company if you had to

>> you know um explain the strategy that you have for the next five years of like why someone should be like a pros or shareholder like what would that be

>> super easy uh pros today as a many conglomerates trades on a discount on the on our not asset values and maybe

because few people didn't see our vision I think we execute we didn't execute that well the last few years but what process is today is extremely extremely

exciting first we focus in a regions as I said India, Europe and Latin America and they're really creating champions there. In Latin America we have I food

there. In Latin America we have I food with many companies around in Europe.

Now we have just eat with and we are building an ecosystem around just eat and in India we have 30 investments the best tech companies in India as part of our portfolio. But the best thing to me

our portfolio. But the best thing to me is not only good execution is how we are really innovating to create the future.

So the two things that I'm more excited right now what we call large commerce model that means we take all our data and we have two billion customers and we train a model we finetune models with

all the data it's a very different way to look how AI change e-commerce for example iod has 200 models running i food now we take all the data and we

train one model that can predict everything and this is very very meas where we can understand about our customers they demand about how how a

food delivery customer what are the demands to travel for example and our model can predict that because we have so much data on that I think our the innovation we are doing that is best in

class in the world also in the agent agents world we have today 20,000 agents and we are running agents for example to talk to restaurants partner customers and we have today we calculate around

5,000 extra people working in pro just because our agent are behaving as regular employees or human beings. So I

think we are quite ahead in how to use AI to change our business. We I'm very happy with that. At the same time, the company is really every time growing

faster and we are going to deliver a few billion dollars in profits uh this year and next year. So I think process has

been through a big change and uh my suggestion is it's still on discount.

Uh, better to do it now than to regret later.

>> It's awesome. Um, Fab, I know we're at time, but so grateful that you do this.

Thank you so much. And it's awesome to see another Brazilian taking over the world.

>> Pleasure to be here. Hope to come back to tell >> we need a part two. Honestly, like this is >> Exactly. Let's the part two when we are

>> Exactly. Let's the part two when we are getting back to 2003 billion.

>> Perfect. Let's do it. Amazing. Thank

you.

>> Pleasure.

>> Thanks to our friends at Atomic Growth for helping with production and distribution.