How Tech's San Francisco Values Gave Way to the Right

early internet era industries are dying.

Like was there a sense the city was like please we need you or or not?

No no no no that so [laughter] no we would throw huge parties you know we did some really fancy stuff at the conferences and and and [laughter] so that so that fed the you know that kind

of created the impression you know of like ah you know spending all this money you know which we were but you know it was all sponsor money anyway. So I was very upset about that and so I wrote

this long letter to the Washington Post said you could at least correct these factual errors [music] and uh but then 9/11. So on the podcast a history of San

9/11. So on the podcast a history of San Francisco it is defining the nation today with companies like Open AI and Anthropic threatening to destroy every job in the world. Jonathan Weber, the

newcomers editor at large, former editor-inchief of the industry standard and the San Francisco standard and a top tech editor at Reuters. He's seen it all. is out with a new book on the

all. is out with a new book on the history of San Francisco and what tech did to it. That book, City on the Edge.

He comes on the show just as audiences are booing commencement speakers.

Interesting. [cheering]

In the book, he captures the disconnect between the technology set and the rest of us. And we start off the episode

of us. And we start off the episode talking about why people are so sour on what San Francisco is building right now. This is the Newcomer podcast hosted

now. This is the Newcomer podcast hosted by me, Eric Newcomer, author and creator of the newcomer Substack. Find us at newcomer.co for an insiders look into venture capital and everything going on in Silicon [music] Valley.

Literally this week, Eric Schmidt, you know, the former CEO of Google is getting booed during a commencement speech for talking about AI and sort of

the coming disruption. So I wanted to take sort of you know from thinking about the history of the tech industry what what do you make of sort of how out of touch the tech executives are or I'm

you know once out of touch but also you know I'm an AI sympathetic. Yeah. What do you make of

sympathetic. Yeah. What do you make of him getting booed on stage?

Um yeah well that was was quite dramatic to see and um I I did want to say first of all thanks Eric for for having me here. It's been a great pleasure to work

here. It's been a great pleasure to work with you uh over the years in various capacities. Yeah. Um,

capacities. Yeah. Um,

we've had you on the podcast. We've had

you on an earlier iteration of the podcast, right? Have you been?

podcast, right? Have you been?

Very. No, I don't think so. This is our first first podcast appearance. I love

it.

Here we are in New York City.

Yeah. So, so that's very exciting. I

really appreciate it. Um, and uh it's been a lot of fun to work on this book alongside uh working with you and and and seeing how the AI industry has developed. A lot of that post-dates the

developed. A lot of that post-dates the uh kind of conclusion of the book. The

book really ends in 24, but it certainly looks ahead uh at at at the AI developments and and the theme that we see uh kind of coming to a certain kind

of fruition with Eric Schmidt being booed is really a shift very dramatic shift in uh popular sentiment towards technology towards towards the industry

and towards Silicon Valley which is kind of the metaphor for the industry and uh historically uh America is a is a techno optimist country, right? We believe in in

country, right? We believe in in technology as a a means of making the world a better place, making our lives better. Uh that was certainly true in

better. Uh that was certainly true in the 1990s, which is when the book starts and kind of the beginning of the commercial internet, the rise of the worldwide web. And the culture in San

worldwide web. And the culture in San Francisco at the time was was a very kind of effervescent, very optimistic culture. We're going to change the world

culture. We're going to change the world with technology. We're going to make the

with technology. We're going to make the world a better place. And then over the course of 30 years, you know, that kind of that had an arc to it. And uh and a

lot of those hopes and dreams from the beginning uh were really uh ended in disappointment. And I think now uh with

disappointment. And I think now uh with with AI we have a real um you know real cynicism about about tech and and and a

and a kind of distrust of the elites who are kind of selling uh this tech to us which is not a San Francisco specific thing. It's you know across the United

thing. It's you know across the United States. Sure. The

States. Sure. The

United States in particular feels like relative to some to like developing countries, the US in particular seems very anxious about artificial intelligence.

Yeah, I think I think that's true. And I

and I do think it's very related to the political dynamics in the country actually because I think that and you certainly see this in San Francisco

where uh the rise of AI uh essentially coincided with a big uh political shift uh where the the tech industry had traditionally been a a fairly capital D

democratic industry uh certainly committed to uh kind of liberal social values. Um, and that sort of flipped uh

values. Um, and that sort of flipped uh in the in the Trump era and you have the rise of a of a cadre of right-wing uh tech executives and and they've been

very very dismissive of of public concerns about about AI, about the job impacts and environmental impacts and other things. They're very very

other things. They're very very dismissive of that. And I think that that is a huge error and and is part of what's contributed to the public backlash. Uh, I mean I think one thing

backlash. Uh, I mean I think one thing that people need to understand going into this conversation today, you know, we're pretty sloppy at Newcomer between Silicon Valley and San

Francisco because Silicon Valley sort of moved up. They're like, "Oh yeah, you

moved up. They're like, "Oh yeah, you know, a lot of the venture firms spend a lot of their time in San Francisco. The

junior partners want to be there.

Startups are, you know, building there."

Um, of course some of the bigger companies then leave, but you know, like the zeitgeist uh is San Francisco, but when the book starts, there's Silicon

Valley with Apple that's booming and San Francisco has some, you know, a few quirky tech companies or how would you describe San Francisco in the beginning

of the internet era?

Yeah, so if you, so 1990, it's essentially when the book begins. Uh

there really isn't a tech industry in San Francisco at all. I mean there there's one or two tiny companies. I

talk about a uh an outfit called Jasmine Technologies that made hard disk drives, but that was essentially it. There was

no substantial companies. Uh were no substantial companies. Uh technology was

substantial companies. Uh technology was a Silicon Valley thing. It was south. It

was an hour to the south. It was a different world. It was very much a a

different world. It was very much a a kind of government-driven military-driven technology industry historically. So the

Silicon and Silicon Valley, the chip industry uh was government-driven uh at the beginning. Um and so it was a very

the beginning. Um and so it was a very different culture, very different world.

San Francisco was in a uh it's kind of postc counterculture period. It was

coming out of uh some pretty pretty rough uh economic and and cultural times in the in the 70s and the 80s.

People have been like killed, right? I

mean, obviously politicians have been killed and a sort of radical dramatic, you know, after the there was sort of the the summer of love in the '60s and then the 70s were just a very

traumatic time in the city. There was

the assassinations of uh of George Moscone and Harvey Mil in City Hall by a by a former policeman. Um and uh and it was a very very fraught time. There was

the zebra killings. Uh there

I never heard of that before.

Zebra killings were um uh basically uh black people were killing randomly shooting white people on the streets, a small band of of black guys and um for ideological reasons or

Yeah, it was well it was a little bit unclear, but yeah, you know, revolution, you know, and there was the Black Panthers in Oakland and there then Patty Hurst was kidnapped. So there was all of

that, you know, and so so the 70s were a time of kind of big trauma in a way. Um,

and then that sort of calmed down a little bit in the in the 80s, but the but the economy of the city was a very was a real mixed bag. You know, there was um tourism was strong, but all the

manufacturing was going away. You know,

there used to been, you know, steel mills and other kinds of manufacturing that was all going away. The navy was going away. And so the so the economy

going away. And so the so the economy was kind of weak but the culture was very rich. So there was

very rich. So there was one thing that stood out to me about Jasmine as you were just describing is you know customer obsessed you know they're they're making like what external hard drives effectively for the

Mac but but it's like oh these are sort of they're just very worried about their customer and sort of build a brand in a way that almost felt like not about you know even sort of making money

necessarily. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

necessarily. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

True. Like it was just it feels like everybody's ruled by uh you know optimizing for money uh these days in businesses.

Yeah. And it really was very different in that regard. Like so as the '9s wore on and the web was created, you know, so the web didn't exist before the early

90s. I mean, the internet did, but the

90s. I mean, the internet did, but the web started in the early 90s. And the

web the first website as we know it really was probably Hotwired. Uh so at Wired magazine they were not only writing about this stuff but they were also actually inventing the website as

we know it and the banner ad and and other things. So it was a very kind of

other things. So it was a very kind of creative moment and there was a lot going on. And so as as it proceeded

going on. And so as as it proceeded through the '9s people became aware that like oh you know maybe there's like money in this. So that was interesting

to to to some people certainly but it was not really the main driver for most people uh through that early period and uh it was really more the possibility of

doing something really cool and really interesting and that you know that was the main motivator and then in the late

90s you had so Netscape went public and that sort of in in the mid '9s um I want to say 95. I always get this year mixed

up. 94 95. But Netscape went public and

up. 94 95. But Netscape went public and that was kind of the starting gun for like oh my god, you know, there's money money to be made. There's [laughter]

money to be made here. So So that started to change the dynamic a little bit, right? That was Mark Andre's

bit, right? That was Mark Andre's company. So Mark Andre had been a

company. So Mark Andre had been a graduate student at the University of Illinois at the supercomputer center there. Um and then together with

there. Um and then together with colleagues they had uh uh written a web browser called Mosaic which sort of advanced the uh kind of protocols

originally developed by Tim Berners Lee for the worldwide web. So the so the mosaic browser was the first tool for mere mortals to use the internet. And um

and so then Jim Clark who was a frustrated uh entrepreneur who had who had started Silicon Graphics and then been kicked out by his board and had a

huge chip on his shoulder about proving uh himself and uh he saw the um uh uh mosaic and he called Mark Andre. Uh Mark

came to Silicon Valley. They agreed to start a company together originally called Mosaic Communications actually, but that for trademark reasons they had to change that. There was a lot of litigation

etc. It didn't ultimately matter too much, but so they started Netscape and that was kind of the first sort of internet company as as we think about

that. Did San Francisco invite the tech

that. Did San Francisco invite the tech industry in like you think in the beginning you know early internet era it's like our industries are dying like

was there a sense the city was like please we need you or or not no no the so [laughter] no so the city was like very disconnected you know one of the strange things through the whole book is

like there's there's a there's quite a bit of disconnect really between the city government and the industry so the city was like practically not even aware air of what was going on. And so there

were a lot of people, you know, just individuals and creative people, techies of different kinds, artists and stuff who would come and dear like these abandoned warehouses and Soma and stuff

and they were just kind of doing stuff.

I mean, Wired showed up and these I mean, South Park was still kind of a dangerous neighborhood actually back then, but um uh but you could rent space for 50 cents a square foot and so people

just kind of started doing stuff. And

the and the the reason that it was happening in the city was because the people who were creating it were the creative types who wanted to be in the

city. They did not want to be living in

city. They did not want to be living in boring Silicon Valley because and part of this is the Mac and the idea that you could use a mouse and there were graphical interfaces and

images were going on in the internet.

All of a sudden, what had been sort of the nerdy domain of chips was now opened up to sort of the designers and other people in San Francisco.

Exactly. So tech became a somewhat different kind of thing. It wasn't just about the hard science, about the physics and the engineering. Now, it was about the design and the creative expression and the writing. You know,

the web is, you know, E. Williams, the

CEO of Twitter, um, uh, said this to me, you know, that that Silicon Valley was, you know, about chips and and the web, you know, was something different. The

web was about writing and arts and expression, you know, so it was quite different and that was much more a San Francisco uh zone of expertise as it were than uh than it was in Silicon

Valley. we'll keep in our timeline. But

Valley. we'll keep in our timeline. But

it is interesting in this present moment if you're bullish on sort of AI coding and that means that machines are more able to be commanded basically with

plain English you do have to wonder if like oh what will happen if similarly a new set of people is able to sort of shape uh the future like what what

pockets of the world will embrace tech in sort of a in a different way.

Yeah. I mean I certainly you know an optimistic case around AI would be that it will it will liberate the creative the creative impulses and and and really

elevate uh creativity above the sort of mere mechanics of programming a computer.

Yeah. So uh San Francisco city government sort of oblivious to you know that I mean what EFF and people are coming up you know all sort of these people see the internet coming are doing

creative things building out forums building websites when we we talked about Netscape going public being the moment sort of is that when San

Francisco sort of wakes up that there's if there's money there's a tax base or when's it start changing when's it start registering I with politicians.

Yeah. Well, I I think it really was in the um in the latter part of the '9s.

So, um Willie Brown was elected mayor in um in 95. He took office in 96. Uh

Willie was a was a a brilliant polit is still he's 91 years old, still a brilliant politician. Uh

brilliant politician. Uh take some of the credit for Kla Harris, right?

Yeah. I mean, he was Yeah, she was his protege. I mean, Willie is responsible

protege. I mean, Willie is responsible for the political careers of essentially everyone in San Francisco at the moment.

Gavin Newsome is also I wouldn't call quite call him a Willie protege, but certainly Willie was instrumental in his rise for that too.

Yeah. Anyway, Willie Brown, I just want for people I I I think it's worth saying, you know, San Francisco with the boom of AI is obviously poised to shape the entire country as we're now

touching on some of the San Francisco politicians could be coming to you soon, America. So, I do think why should you

America. So, I do think why should you uh consume an episode very focused on San Francisco and then go read a book uh very focused on San Francisco? It's

because San Francisco is making a lot of the calls uh that are going to shape your life. And anyway, so to go back, uh

your life. And anyway, so to go back, uh why should people care about Willie Brown? Uh we explained it. It's like,

Brown? Uh we explained it. It's like,

okay, uh bringing up some of the big politicians, you were getting into how he recognized uh the tech industry.

Yeah. And so Willie, you know, um for those who aren't aren't familiar with him, I mean, he's probably, you know, among the greatest politicians in American history, literally. I mean, he,

you know, he was born a poor kid in a segregated town in Texas and and from there, you know, uh, rose to be longtime speaker of the California Assembly

before he was the mayor. And, uh, very very powerful, very, very shrewd guy, brilliant, brilliant guy. And, um, and so Willie was elected mayor in 90 in 95.

He took office in 96. The boom, the internet boom started to kind of really take off in sort of 97. And Willie being a shrewd guy started to notice that

there was something going on here that he kind of needed to be aware of a little bit. And he he still didn't

little bit. And he he still didn't really understand it really, but he had a little bit of a sense. And there's a there's a hilarious story in the book,

you know, where um uh so at one point, you know, some shrewd like stock broker at Morgan Stanley was like, "Hey, Mr. mayor, you know, you want to make a little money on on some, you know,

dotcoms and like this was an era when the so the dotcoms were going public uh often with very little revenue or much of a business, but it was a real bubble

moment. And so, uh, if you could buy

moment. And so, uh, if you could buy shares at the opening price, that was guaranteed profit. And so, that was kind

guaranteed profit. And so, that was kind of used as currency to pay people off in different ways. So, so this guy was

different ways. So, so this guy was given given some shares to Willie and he had to report that as part of his mayoral financial disclosures and uh so

at first he denied any special access.

He was just another day trader. you

know, it was all pretty pretty funny and he made a little bit of money on that.

But but Willie was, you know, he was shrewd, so he saw, you know, that that something was coming here and he started to pay a little bit of attention uh to the industry. But it was still, you

the industry. But it was still, you know, relatively small beer like even in the late even at the peak of the dotcom boom as a percentage of the city's economy, it was still fairly small, you

know, maybe 10 10% something like that.

So the the politicians, you know, mostly mostly had other concerns.

Yeah.

Uh, you know, a fun element of the book, you start off, you're a reporter at the Los Angeles Times, assigned by now famous Marty Baron to go to San Francisco when many in uh the media

class, didn't get the importance of the tech industry, and it was fairly boring.

by do you're running you're the editor of the industry standard which was one of if not the sort of like for good and

bad synonymous uh with the dot bust and boom um what yeah what I guess tell us the story of dot through sort of a

little bit of the story of uh your time at the industry standard.

Okay, sure. So, um, so I was working at the LA Times and I was recruited. I got

a call from a recruiter to, um, uh, who was working on behalf of John Battel, who was starting a new magazine, uh, a weekly business magazine about the digital economy. It didn't have a name

digital economy. It didn't have a name at the time. Um, and uh, he had been been referred to me and he had been hired by IDG, a big trade publisher, to

create uh, this new magazine. So, um, so I talked to John and he was, you know, he was clearly a super smart guy and and, um, it was very controversial

decision in a way to leave the LA Times at that time. Like, so when I finally decided to take the job, you know, people looked at me like because it was such a good job.

What?

Well, cuz the in the '9s, you know, the LA Times was was among the top papers in the country. You know, big newspapers

the country. You know, big newspapers were the place to be if you were an ambitious journalist. There were three

ambitious journalist. There were three or four top papers, New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times. So, if you were an upandcomer with a good job at the LA Times, you were kind of on the

top track of the profession. So, why

would you leave that for a weird startup trade thing? Huh? What you know? Um, but

trade thing? Huh? What you know? Um, but

it was somewhat obvious to me honestly.

Um, I was had the chance to build a build a magazine and I could and I knew that tech was a big story. I mean, I I was the tech editor at the LA Times. I

had started a section. I had convinced the bosses that tech was really a thing.

There would be advertisers and we should do a little weekly tech section in the paper, which which we did. It was called the cutting edge. I was very proud of that. Um, so I knew there was a big

that. Um, so I knew there was a big story there and um and then you know I I quite liked John after a number of conversations and he hired me and so we so then I went out hired a bunch of

people. There was a little work going on

people. There was a little work going on with a prototype when I got there and then hired up initial staff 15 or 20 people and it was funny. We launched in '98 in the spring and and it's it's hard

to get traction for new magazines. It it

it's very expensive and um and at the beginning you know we weren't really going anywhere like the we didn't have much of a circulation strategy. IDG

didn't want to spend the money for paid circulation and um and also it was hard to compete like we had inexperienced reporters. We were pretty small. We're

reporters. We were pretty small. We're

trying to compete with the Wall Street Journal, you know, so like getting the big scoops that would really put us on the map was not that easy. So the first six months were kind of a struggle and

and we were under a lot of pressure from IDG like they were going to shut us down. they, you know, they didn't like

down. they, you know, they didn't like the name. They didn't they didn't like a

the name. They didn't they didn't like a lot of things. And uh it became clear that John and Pat McGovern, the owner of IDG, had very different visions for what

this thing would be. So there was a lot of stress, but then like just kind of overnight like we were confident. We

were like we know this is going to work, you know, and then just bam like just what was the core story type or what resonated? Well, you know, the core

resonated? Well, you know, the core story type was basically news analysis about these new dot companies. Um, so

there would be, you know, we would have some scoops on, oh, you know, here's I remember one of our earlier scoops was the formation of a company called drugstore.com. You know, Kleiner Perkins

drugstore.com. You know, Kleiner Perkins was going to put a bunch of money in and, you know, create this company, you know. So, that was a that was a big

know. So, that was a that was a big deal.

It was really covering the business. It

was covering the well and at first right it was covering the business of like the business of.com you know so that was sort of the heart of it but then it was part of that whole thing was the

idea that this isn't just about like you're going to have a.com it's like the internet is going to change business as we know it that's going to change everything you know so as we went on we started to write more about bigger

picture stuff you know the internet and politics and the internet and culture and about to use as a loaded expression in the context of San Francisco, but did you drink the Kool-Aid? Like was,

you know, well, you know, that that's a great question because, you know, by disposition and and and you know, by profession, I I mean, I'm a journalist.

I've always been a skeptical I've been a skeptical journalist. I kind of my my

skeptical journalist. I kind of my my job is to kind of ask questions and and and sort of poke at the soft spots of the story, whatever it is. And so when I

when I was uh talking to John about what I would do if I were editor of this new magazine and I and I told him that I thought what was really needed was for a publication and journalism they really

played against the hype you know because it was all you know hype but people really want to know like what's real and what's not. So we positioned as the

what's not. So we positioned as the skeptics were going to cut through the hype. We had like our slogans like 99.9%

hype. We had like our slogans like 99.9% hype free. That was [laughter] that was

hype free. That was [laughter] that was one of our t-shirts I think you know so and and if you read the you know the tone of the editorial I mean if you read the magazine from back then we were very

much like that you know we were very tough-minded very very critical um and that formula proved very successful people really did like that for the

reasons that I thought they would which is that when there's tons of hype you want to know what's real um and then but then we were so successful that we we became became a [laughter] symbol of the

hype, right? So, we were like the

hype, right? So, we were like the overspending like what happened like what what did you do?

Well, it was, you know, too many employees.

Well, so we had these parties, you know, so we started having party we we had beer and chips for the staff. So, the

magazine closed at 2:00 on Friday afternoon. We shipped the last pages and

afternoon. We shipped the last pages and then we would have beer and chips for the staff on the roof. Then we started inviting people. Then a lot of people

inviting people. Then a lot of people started coming. Then companies wanted to

started coming. Then companies wanted to sponsor, you know. So then it became like, you know, gourmet booze and, you know, fancy food sponsored by HP, you know, come to the rooftop and then

there'd be a line out the door and then there, you know, then we started having the rooftop at bigger venues and it's amazing that HB has been fueling the events business literally like [laughter] correspons

not not this year but of my events like such a huge time gap. I remember totally that the one of the um we had a rooftop a rooftop industry standard rooftop at

Bimbos's uh nightclub which is a very large club you know and this place was packed out all sponsored by HP you know top shelf booze you know everything so that stuff you know and then we had a

conference business and the conferences also were just tremendously successful you know so we would sell out these conferences three or $4,000 tickets you know for three days at a fancy resort

and sponsors paying100 grand, you know, so it was very lucrative. And then in association with that, we would throw huge parties, you know, we did some really fancy stuff at the conferences

[laughter] and and so that so that fed the you know, that kind of created the impression, you know, of like ah, you know, spending all this [laughter] money, you know, which we were, but you know, it was all sponsor money. what

what is the lesson I need to learn from this or you know what how similar does uh this moment feel to the uh I would say it feels a little bit similar. Yeah, it does feel a little bit

similar. Yeah, it does feel a little bit similar. I mean there's there's um you

similar. I mean there's there's um you know there's a big uh kind of disconnect between you know the amount of money you know that's going into these companies and the sort of evident you know

business that they have to justify that amount of money. So um so that certainly feels quite similar and um I feel like

all the sort of like I don't know decadence gets written in after the fact or I think things that just seem [clears throat] sort of normal then when you have to write a narrative

are decadent or I don't know do you really think there are these times that are like drastically more decadent than others or people just zero in to like this de I mean there's some

I do think you I to me and maybe I'm just older and not in you know the same same rooms but you know I don't see the the visible decadence isn't quite as extreme as it was in in the do era you

know I think people are a little more conscious of at least you know keeping that inside maybe [laughter] you know the super decadent parts yeah um

so you know do crashes but San Francisco is not so dependent on the tech industry that that sort of ruins the place or anything.

Yeah. Well, so after 9, you know, 9/11, um Oh, I love the I love the moment what you you were complaining about your how someone had covered you or something.

You asked for like a correction and then like you said it September 10th and it's like, oh, whatever. It sort of captures the moment that like September 11th, you know, obviously horrible, reoriented all

culture, but it was sort of like declare bankruptcy on everything you cared about before then and just like move on. What

was the what was the quibble or I forget what you were fighting about?

Yeah. Well, the uh so when we we went bankrupt with a uh with a loud bang. Um

it was quite a surprise to most people including me. Um the we still had a lot

including me. Um the we still had a lot of money in the bank. There was a game of chicken between the uh two factions on the board. Um and I thought surely

they would come to an agreement but they didn't and we went bankrupt. um and the bankruptcy. So we were a symbol of the

bankruptcy. So we were a symbol of the end of the dotcom era and so people had you know the the market had crashed in the spring of 2000. It took about a year

for all of that to play through. So by

the middle of 2001 like it was just a meltdown out there you know and it was clear that the dot party was over but um there hadn't been a good event to

symbolize it and so we were that event.

So the bankruptcy of the industry standard became a symbol of the end of the dotcom era and so there was a lot of press. So we had gotten a lot of press

press. So we had gotten a lot of press on the way up, you know, the most successful magazine, new magazine in history, blah blah, you know, and so that's fun, you know, and then on the

way down, you kind of get the other side of it, as I say in the book, it was now our turn in the barrel. And so there was a lot of very critical press. And uh uh

one story in particular that really pissed me off, which was a a style section story in the Washington Post by Sharon Waxman, who now runs the rap. And

um and it was just the easiest like, oh, they blew all their money on parties and now they're, you know, getting what they deserve kind of tone. And uh and it just really let the facts be really wrangled.

Yeah. And there were a lot of errors, you know, there there were a dozen errors and it, you know, and it it like relied super heavily on like low-level people who didn't know anything about what was going on, but who she happened

to know, you know.

And then 911 happened. You never got it was in the Washington Post, right?

It was in the Washington Post and issued and I you know I wrote this long letter you know about how like you know the story was unfair. Well the other thing that made me really mad actually was that this was really the real thing is

that a principle that I've always adhered to as a journalist is that anonymous blind quote like blind quotes that are personally critical of someone

are not allowed you know. So if you want to be a if you want to be personal about somebody's bad actions, you got to put your name behind it. And so the story

was full of anonymous quotes from IDG executives blaming me and John for the failure like they owned the company, you know, and blaming management, you know.

So anyway, so I was very upset about that. And so I wrote this long letter to

that. And so I wrote this long letter to the Washington Post said you could at least correct these factual errors. and

uh but then 9/11. So

the tech industry loves to talk about this idea that whenever you see the media cover the thing you actually know a lot about you become disillusioned with media. And in some ways this sort

with media. And in some ways this sort of what you're saying you got covered and you were disillusioned.

There was another moment in the book.

Let's step out of time in our chronology here for a second where you're at Burning Man, which is another big character in or place of importance in

the book outside of San Francisco, but created and populated by San Francisco people. And um you know there's a

people. And um you know there's a terrible like mudstorm where like there it rains really badly and then there's so much mud and everybody who wanted to get out early was sort of inconvenience but the media makes it seem like people

are like starving and all the rich people are suffering and and it basically was one of these cases where like don't let the a good story get in the way of the facts sort of situation. It's

like oh people want the shortened fraud and don't really reporters don't don't check it too good too good to check. I

don't know like you're professionally in media yet in these two sort of pivotal moments where you're in the news you're you know you have a negative experience like I don't know what is what is your

gloss on sort of uh such a big question I'm trying to narrow it for you but yeah what do you make of those two two incidents right well I think that um you know

certainly in the I mean the first instance I think of really as just a good lesson um in sort of feeling, you know, as a journalist.

It was it was very educational to be on the other side of it.

And not all media is the same. Like some

of the coverage was fairer and some was less.

Well, exactly. And and so that was really more my, you know, my takeaway was not that, oh my god, you know, the media is all [ __ ] up, but but more

like, yeah, you know, this can really turn against you sometimes in in ways that you don't expect and you can't really control and and that's very

frustrating and kind of upsetting. Um,

you know, I thought that, um, on bounce, you know, as I think I also mentioned in there, you know, there was that story that I hated. But, you know, the the Wall Street Journal did a very long

story about, you know, the the the end uh by Matthew Rose, who's still around.

Um, and that was a very good story. You

know, it was very accurate. It was it was a little painful to read, but you know, it was accurate. Um, you know, the Burning Man thing, um,

you know, I I see as a little bit like I guess I draw a distinction, uh, in in in media terms. There there's sort of the, um, kind of mass market, you know,

popular media around, you know, television and celebrities and this kind of stuff, which which is not something that I've been too involved in. And you

know, I've always considered that to be like a slightly different realm from the journalism that I do. Um, and um, and I think in the case of Burning Man, it was

very much kind of caught up in that sort of oh, that sort of celebrity media world, you know, where the facts aren't really the point, you know, and um, and

so that kind of stuff is is not not very inspiring to to see. Um

I I in our chronology, let's skip to sort of Twitter's rise because Twitter becomes very important to San Francisco.

What that's where is this like 2014 era or Yeah. sort of early 2010s. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. sort of early 2010s. Yeah. Yeah.

Why why is Twitter in particular such an important company for the city of San Francisco?

Well, there are several reasons. First

of all, um it was actually the biggest of the I mean it was the the biggest internet startup theiest in the city. You know,

Facebook, they didn't build in San Francisco.

Facebook was not in, you know, was south, you know, Google was south, you know. So, so Twitter was was actually in

know. So, so Twitter was was actually in the city. So, that was significant. Um

the city. So, that was significant. Um

and also, you know, what what Twitter was, I mean, it was and what their kind of philosophy was early on. you know,

we're the free speech wing of the free speech party and we're going to give, you know, a means of expression to oppressed peoples around the world and we're going to enable the Arab Spring

and we're going to enable the social justice movement and so all of these things were uh kind of very consistent with San Francisco values. So, so the

company was kind of a good fit for the city in in that way and kind of expressed a certain political zeitgeist

of the city. Um and then it also became a kind of a physical symbol around its building because the the building and the negotiation around that building uh

resulted in a a deal with the city where the city granted a tax break for companies to to locate in that part of the city and that became known as the Twitter tax break. Twitter was at the

center of that discussion. So that

helped them really become a symbol of San Francisco.

San Francisco is sort of inviting tech in. It's like if you're giving tax

in. It's like if you're giving tax breaks, you want the tech industry there.

Well, correct. And so later on, so again, in the n, you know, it was a progression. So in the '9s,

progression. So in the '9s, uh, the industry kind of grew up and the book reflects this. So the book at the beginning is sort of more about the growth of the internet and the the the

rise of the San Francisco tech community and has a little bit less to do with the politics. And then the politics come

politics. And then the politics come more later on because as you're big and there's money to be had, then the politicians start showing up.

Yeah. Exactly. So then it starts to become a thing, you know, when it's a big industry. So that started to happen

big industry. So that started to happen in the in the 2000s. So uh so Nome was mayor um during the 2000s and Newsome, you know, he saw the tech coming and he

wanted to do certain things, but um uh citywide wireless was one of his big ideas. So, I write about this in the

ideas. So, I write about this in the book and um and Gavin, you know, he's he's he's he's an idea volcano as somebody uh who I spoke to called him and he's he's a smart guy and he has a

lot of ideas. He's very bad at the follow through. So, that was pretty

follow through. So, that was pretty characteristic. So, there is no free

characteristic. So, there is no free citywide wireless and and many of the other programs that he was excited about didn't didn't really happen. Uh but it certainly was becoming clear in the

2000s that tech and and this was sort of the web 2.0 era I guess and um and then at the end of the 2000s you really had

this new wave of companies starting to come up and that sort of coincided with the great recession. So there was a funny dynamic there where the uh all the

a lot of the jobs in banking and finance and stuff were going away. The city was really hurting actually.

The city had become Wells Fargo, Bank of America, Wells Fargo was important to the city. Obviously hurt.

the city. Obviously hurt.

Yeah, they were very very important. Um

and you know, Schwab and other you know financial services was was a big thing and uh so the great financial crisis uh hurt the city in that regard and um and

tourism you know was down. People didn't

have money. Um but then sort of underneath that without people noticing too much, you know, the the tech was really starting to to boil. Um and then

that really started to explode in 2010 2011 where you had a whole new wave of companies. So then you had you had

companies. So then you had you had Twitter and you had Facebook. Google was

getting huge and even though Google wasn't in the city, a lot of people a lot of Google employees lived in the city. Um and then and then you had in

city. Um and then and then you had in kind of 20200 2010 and 11 you had Uber, Airbnb, Dropbox, you know. So then you

have the whole uh kind of next wave of uh of companies that grew up in the 2010s. So a lot of them associated with

2010s. So a lot of them associated with the smartphone and what that enabled.

Now we're in the era of the open AIS and anthropics and the labs are I mean literally now we have now we have another wave. You know, you can think of

another wave. You know, you can think of it as like the, you know, there was the first wave around uh the rise of the web. Then you had you had kind of a the

web. Then you had you had kind of a the web 2.0 phase, the rise of blogging, which, you know, was very interesting.

There was a lot of interesting things happening, although it wasn't quite such a big boom. Then you had the next kind of big boom around the smartphone in the

2010s. Then you had COVID and so forth.

2010s. Then you had COVID and so forth.

And now we're in kind of the AI boom, which is yet another era of uh of growth.

The um I mean the housing market in San Francisco is insane. Are we do is this sort of a Twitter in or an ex invention or you think it's real? I feel like I see all these listings where housing is

like, you know, houses in San Francisco are going for I don't know 50% above their value or something because all these AI employees are getting Yeah. there's a huge amount of money

Yeah. there's a huge amount of money coming in, you know, at the at the sort of the high end. And, you know, San Francisco is a small city. There hasn't

been that much construction, so there isn't that much inventory. And, you

know, suddenly, you know, if you have, you know, if if if 500 people make enough money, suddenly have enough money to buy, you know, a $10 million house,

you know, that's going to change the market. it doesn't take that many

market. it doesn't take that many people, you know, at that um at those kinds of price points because there just aren't that many houses, you know. Um

and the city has done a terrible job. I

mean, one of the big crises in San Francisco is that there hasn't been enough housing construction for decades.

So, there's very little inventory. And

um so when you get, you know, an influx of money, an influx of people as you have now with the AI, you know, it's just really sent prices through the roof, both rental and uh sale prices.

And that's a real problem for the city because it it it drives out um everyone else. And you know the service workers,

else. And you know the service workers, you know, you need the service workers both because you need people to work in the restaurants and and and so forth,

but also like the service workers are often a part of the of the cultural economy, right? So it's it's kind of the

economy, right? So it's it's kind of the cliche about, you know, the actor who's waiting tables in the restaurant, right?

But that that's a real thing, you know?

So if if that if that person you know can't get the job in the restaurant and there's and and they you know theater business is sort of soft like that

person is going to move [snorts] and and then you know this is adjacent to sort of the I think where we might have some disagreement or where I'm interested to tease out. I

mean I think you know there's an argument in the book basically you know in the beginning of the internet the government sort of funded it. It was these quirky researchers

it. It was these quirky researchers doing fun stuff. There wasn't that much money to be made. They just literally one of the characters in the book wants to go to raves and do drugs. You know,

it's like how do I find people to do ra go to raves and do drugs? Like I'll post about it online. Email's not enough. We

need forums, you know, and they're so you're having like fun and then you know we build real businesses and the sort of the businesses I guess suck out some of

the like creativity and like San Francisco of it all. do why why do you think sort of the businesses are sort of killing that sort of spark of joy and

creativity like that's still possible like those pe people can still go and be creative maybe it's more expensive to do in San Francisco so you move somewhere else I guess you know I

to me it reads more just like the es and flows of culture or like people feel driven to do certain things at a given moment it's like nobody's stopping sort of a creative quirky person from doing

creative quirky stuff today. They're

just different sort of cultural moments or [snorts] what would you say?

Yeah. Well, that I mean, yeah, you could certainly certainly argue that. you

know, I think that the the incentive structures are very are very different.

And um uh you know these days if you're if you're kind of an entrepreneur if if you're not optimizing for being

successful as a as a startup and the funding and all of that and the growth and all you know the whole package of what you need to be a VC funded startup like if you're not doing that then

you're sort of not a serious person you know then you're just oh you're just a oh it's just the lifestyle business or oh it's just a you know you're not really in it to win it then so not not a

serious person. So there so there

serious person. So there so there there's kind of a a disrespect towards uh non entrepreneurial endeavors. So you

know making you know making money with your startup is sort of the prestige thing to do and everything else is just kind of for the lightweights you know so

that so that I think is different and in an earlier era it's shaped the culture the culture has become become this pressure to build a better and better business or fundraising vehicle.

Yeah. Well, and and you know, when I and this is of course super anecdotal, it's very it's very hard to prove, but but just in my casual interactions, you

know, the the young, you know, the 20omes, they're like really focused on like making this thing work, you know? I

mean, they're like, you know, grinding and they want the money and they want, you know, and that's like that's really a very intense thing. And um

we're 996 now.

Yeah. 996. and you know no time for sex and no time for drinking and no time you know and again like some of this can be a cliche in its own right and you know I

I don't want to be too categorical about the universal truth of it but but I think that is is a thing at this moment that the success in business like making

your money it's like now's the moment you know the AI is coming so if you don't do it now like forget it you know and you and you better get there now cuz like the kid behind you, right? It's like the last stray of the

right? It's like the last stray of the day. It's like if you don't make money

day. It's like if you don't make money now your life's over here.

Exactly. And and

end of time.

And I think that, you know, 20 years ago it wasn't really like that, you know, like you were excited about your startup, but like it was also like, yeah, I'm going to Burning Man, you

know, and so like, you know, if we have to do that after Burning Man, no biggie, you know, like that, you know, it was just a slightly different but significant I

sort of subtle but substantial difference I would say in in the sort of the attitude of the priority of of kind of making money versus like the rest of life, you know.

Yeah. Yeah.

The uh I want to get into like the San Francisco politics of it all. I mean,

there's a great and and it collides with this sort of capitalism issue we're talking about, but you have like an amazing synthesis right in the beginning of the book. You know, San Francisco has always occupied a special place in the

national psyche. The mythic fog shrouded

national psyche. The mythic fog shrouded city on the edge of the continent.

Mesmerizing in its beauty, founded by fortune seekers and freeth thinkers, the birthplace of the counterculture and pretender to the title of the greatest

city in the world. Um, and then you're sort of like, okay, what what a uh what a political streak is sort of undermining that. For the right, San

undermining that. For the right, San Francisco is exhibit number one for the argument that progressive policies on crime and drugs have ruined Democratic run cities. Among moderate Democrats,

run cities. Among moderate Democrats, San Francisco is a great example of the failures of anti-growth liberalism, as outlined in the abundance theory popularized by journalists Ezra Klene

and Eric Thompson. The progressive left has its diagnosis, too. If only the tech companies and the billionaires weren't so greedy, there'd be plenty of resources to solve social problems like

homelessness. So, which camp are you

homelessness. So, which camp are you most sympathetic to? [laughter]

Yeah. Well, you know, when I started this book, um I knew that there was going to be um a lot of pressure to to blame somebody to to decide, you know, it's it's it's always easier when you

have good guys, bad guys, you know, it's their fault. Uh and I found it very

their fault. Uh and I found it very difficult to do that in all honesty. and

and um you know they say that um you know success has many fathers you know and and you know in the same way I think in this case like there's plenty of

blame to go around you know so so I I really do think that uh that each of the you know this is an unsatisfying answer to the question but I but I think that each of the camps you know has a lot to

answer for in terms of of how they've you know really not met the moment in and some of these challenges. Um,

what what is the biggest like failure in San Francisco? Like I mean I'm the

San Francisco? Like I mean I'm the abundance zone. So I'm I would say a

abundance zone. So I'm I would say a failure to build, but there are lots of people if you're if you're in the degrowth category, I don't know if you stay out of the tenderloin and don't go downtown.

San Francisco's pretty great for the people who can afford it. Right. I don't

know what what is your core critique?

What has been the failure? Well, I you know, I think the biggest failure of San Francisco is the uh is the inability of the factions to work together better and

um and that um you know because it is a it is a very wealthy city. Um and

the there is a lot of consensus actually around a lot more than you would sort of think based on reading the headlines,

you know, about some basic kinds of issues. But the political factions are

issues. But the political factions are kind of so dug into their positions, you know, that they won't work together. And

that is very very damaging to the city.

And I think that you know an example of it that I use in the book is that um in terms of the fentanyl problem right so so drugs are are are very very tough

issue it's very tough issue to deal with right um you know many cities countries you know struggled with these problems right so you have a fentanel crisis

people dying in the streets three people a day and um and so you have on the right it's like well we just need, you know, law and order. Just throw everyone

in jail, you know, just more cops on the streets, you know, and that'll be that, you know, and then on the other side of the spectrum, you have no, you know, these people are victims and they're

sick and we need treatment and we need compassion and, you know, da da and um so those are the entrenched camps. Now,

you know, it is to me just screamingly obvious that the solution such as one, you know, first of all, there's no like solution there. There's

like solutions, you know, ways to mitigate, try to work on the problem lies somewhere in the middle. You need

some law enforcement and you need some compassion together. And so they had a

compassion together. And so they had a program called LEAD, a law enforcementass assisted diversion where they had cops and social workers working

together to help the most troubled of these addicts. And um but the thing fell

these addicts. And um but the thing fell apart because the the cops didn't want to work with, you know, were like the social workers are like ah, you know, bleeding hearts, you know, don't

know that these people are just criminals and you know why we don't even want to deal with you. And then the social workers like, "Yeah, law enforcement is no answer. You know,

we're you pigs. We're not going to work with you." You know, and and so they

with you." You know, and and so they wouldn't they refused to cooperate and so the program fell apart. So So to me that that is a huge failing.

So is I mean the book, you know, the epilogue is Daniel Luri, the current mayor, but is mostly focused on preheim.

Does he just he's solving all these problems? He's the most popular mayor in

problems? He's the most popular mayor in America. So, if there's ever going to be

America. So, if there's ever going to be consensus, can will he have it or what what is your read so far on his morality?

Well, I think that he has uh done very well precisely on this point. So, he's

kind of been able to get a little bit of a like, hey, we actually all kind of agree on certain basic things, so let's kind of can we just kind of do those

things for starters? And that's like, you know, the encampments, for example.

So you know even now you know the left and the a lot of the social workers you know feel that the sweeping of encampments is you know a nasty thing to do to the people who live there but if

you you know in the city like people are like no you know clearly it's not okay for people live on the sidewalk in tents you know uh so you know they've swept

the done a lot of sweeping of the encampments that's been pretty popular for the most part Um and um and I think that they've been, you know, at the same time done some things on the other side

with more treatment and more shelters and not, you know, not been too harshly, you know, kind of clamped down about it.

So, so I think he's done a good job with sort of the lowhanging fruit. Um

but the big tests are still are still to come. So he's very popular right now.

come. So he's very popular right now.

He's got he's got a very popular man, you know, he's got a good manner. He

shows up everywhere for every ribbon cutting. He smiles.

cutting. He smiles.

He tells everybody he likes him. He's

like like you miss like the left.

He likes everybody. He's very genial.

He's very consistent in that manner. So

it's hard for people to grab on to something to dislike about him, you know. So So I think he's done a good

know. So So I think he's done a good job. You know, it helps him to be a

job. You know, it helps him to be a billionaire, honestly. Like I I think

billionaire, honestly. Like I I think that, you know, Trump somehow isn't [ __ ] with him very much. Um maybe

because he's also a rich guy and Trump hasn't avoided the ice fight. He like

Yeah, he's avoided the ICE fight. Um you

know the the the Prescidio thing, you know, Trump was making noises like he was really going to try to dismantle the Presidio Trust and sell off some of that property, but

that that isn't happening. Um I mean, they just appointed the new Presidio Trust board with Lynn Benny off on there and Trevor Traina. I mean, they're not dismantling anything. So,

dismantling anything. So, I wanted to zoom in on Wired specifically. Uh, I literally had Katie

specifically. Uh, I literally had Katie Drummond, the global editorial director on I think the podcast that we'll run before this one that I've already recorded. You know, recently, uh, Trey

recorded. You know, recently, uh, Trey Stevens at Founders Fund joked about acquiring it. You wrote in newcomer sort

acquiring it. You wrote in newcomer sort of about that whole incident and Wired is sort of a character in the book. what

is your view on how much, you know, I don't know, wired today is betraying the founding origins of the publication and like give give us sort of your your

gloss on on the publication's evolution.

Well, I think that Wired has evolved in a almost inevitable way. Um, you know, back one thing that's very important to remember in thinking about this history

is that back in the '9s when wired was created and when there was this kind of effervescent optimism that I that I talk about, you know, the tech industry was very small. It it was

very small. It it was it was an underdog.

It was an underdog. Yeah. and relative,

you know, the big industries were like oil, you know, and and banking, like those were the big industries, you know, tech was kind of this smallalish

weirdish, you know, thing like important but not like the banks, you know, and um and so that was a was a very different

thing. And so in those days, you know,

thing. And so in those days, you know, it was much Yeah, it was more of a of a kind of an underdog, you know, feeling.

So, so now you know you have a tech industry which is like so big and so dominant and you know has control of you

know so many aspects of our lives you know that it that it just by nature is going to shift the relationship. So, so

back in the '90s, Wired was championing the, you know, these these idiosyncratic technologists, you know, people, you know, thinking outside of the box. We're

going to remake the world, uh, with these new technologies. And it's a, you know, it's a glorious moment of, you know reinvention

uh, led by these kind of fascinating idiosyncratic freethinkers, right?

So nowadays, you know, you can't frame the tech industry that way. Like it

isn't about that. You know, it's it's like the tech industry is not run by, right? If you're a publication that

right? If you're a publication that cheers for underdog freeth thinkers, those same people would not have the same view of the tech industry today.

Exactly. You know, so now the tech industry is not renegade freethinkers.

the tech industry is like super rich billionaires, you know, with enormous power and political power and all kinds of other stuff. So, so you can't like,

you know, Mark Andre would have been a hero, you know, of Wired in 1994 or and was, I guess, I don't remember exactly, but you know, he would be the type of

guy who was a hero in '94, but nowadays like how would that guy be? How would he be a hero exactly? like one of the richest guys in the world. Like he's not

an underdog. He's not a renegade. He's

an underdog. He's not a renegade. He's

not, you know, he's just like he's like, you know, would literally say, you know, we did the heroic act you wanted. We built the great thing like and now everybody hates us for it, you know, or what do you make of that? Like I do

of that? Like I do Well, they haven't built the great thing. They built they built they built

thing. They built they built they built the thing that benefits them, you know, but it but it, you know, they've gotten rich, but what's it done for the rest of us, you know? And so I I mean and I'm

not saying that's a I'm being sarcastic in a way. You know, there's plenty of answers to that question, but they have not articulated those answers. You know,

they have the tech industry leadership has not sold to the people why, you know, what they're bringing is going to be good.

Exactly. [laughter] We literally started this episode talking about Eric Schmidt, talking about AI and getting booed. I

mean, we they're not doing a good job selling it. I mean, and I think the

selling it. I mean, and I think the question is, you know, and and to go well, commie, you know, might have responded to this.

Um, but it is certainly true that wired in the early days, you know, was celebrated tech and wired these days is often very critical. Now, to me, that's

a that's a kind of a natural evolution.

Um uh but if you sort of say, well, is wired the same thing as it was then?

Does it represent the same thing? Well,

not exactly. No.

I mean, it's clearly more political. I

mean, she didn't embrace totally. I think she agreed with this line of argument somewhat, but I think she is sort of casting about for the renegades and sort

of people to be cheered for. I think she sees the critique of like, oh, we need to work on projects um right that that find sort of people we will designate as heroes, but obviously she's

very proud of and should be proud of Wired's work on stuff like Doge and sort of the failures of uh Elon's uh renegade boys to find government waste and just sort of the chaos they cause. So, I mean, I think

she's there, you know, believes they're doing important work, but is sort of working also on pieces to find some of the optimism.

Yeah. Well, and interestingly within Wired, there's always been a tension between the liberal and the libertarian within Wired. And so Lewis Retto the found founder um you know he

was much more libertarian and and he would actually agree with the I fairly sure would agree with the Trey Stevens critique like he thinks that Wired you

know Lewis has kind of gone to the right and he believes that Wired today does not represent what you know what he's celebrated and even Kevin Kelly weighed

in on Trey Stevens thing and said oh that would be a very wired thing to do to buy wire Um um I mean I do think you know I'm I think fairly sympathetic to the tech

industry but if you look at you know Facebook had some of these sort of San Francisco it sold the world on connecting everybody and obviously you know I do think people are connected over Facebook

but I don't know that part of the message was you know get all your political takes from your aunt or whatever [laughter] you know and and then you know the sharing economy which

I really live through I really don't think delivered on the message that it's like some guy with a car making a little side money. Like mostly drivers there

side money. Like mostly drivers there are professional. It feels like most

are professional. It feels like most Airbnbs you go to it is their job. And

so again you have the tech industry embracing sort of a creative framing.

you know, the Airbnb guys are like designers, but then once it scales, you realize it's sort of a nice story on top of what feels like a less sort of

society mindbending, [laughter] acid tripping business, right? And and yet again, we find ourselves here with AI, you know, it it leads to a bad path on

where things are going. But right now, we're in the fun, you know, you have your claw bot and you're like doing, I don't know, you're hacking together websites. I don't know what what do you

websites. I don't know what what do you take from that uh journey we've been on?

Well, you know, we talking a little bit before about the, you know, the role of the role of capital and venture capital and, you know, and I do think the in the sharing economy, it's kind of an example

of where if you if you're really pushing, you know, to optimize for for profit, like then that takes you in certain

directions that you wouldn't necessarily have to go, right? So in other words, a service like Airbnb,

like there is a thing there that would be what it's purported to be, right?

Like friends, you know, just people making a little extra money on their room and, you know, travelers saving a little money and having a more personal, you know, natural experience and like

there's a business in doing that. It's

just not as good a business, not as lucrative a business as the business of like professional operators renting apartments and renting them out.

I feel like there's this world that it's not just like the mean money sort of forces that are doing like the left.

There are certain things in the book, right? Like you read like like do drugs

right? Like you read like like do drugs and like talk about it to your colleague, you know, just like some of the things that were wild and fun like left culture wouldn't allow either. and

like having the you know lift tried to be the more like random guy with a car and in some ways it's like that's pretty dangerous and like there's something good about a professional and like some of the bad Airbnb experiences are like

man the host just wants to talk to me the whole time like there there are certain things where like some of the some of those examples are examples where like left culture itself

doesn't necessarily want to sustain the wacky weird thing at scale like you can trust it in sort of a small experiment but once it's becoming sort of

societalwide. The latigious sort of

societalwide. The latigious sort of culture of of like that I would put more on the left also sort of sands that down. Like so these things just sort of

down. Like so these things just sort of get sanded down to a version that like the markets can sustain and that like you just can't scale sort of like wild unhinged relationships, right?

What do you take of the critique that there are pieces of the left that are also sort of sanding down what are wild cultural ideas? Yeah, I would, you know,

cultural ideas? Yeah, I would, you know, I think I think that's I think that's fair. You know, that um the you know,

fair. You know, that um the you know, the left kind of you could say generically there's sort of a prioritization of kind of safety, you know, which would lead to a kind of

conservative approach to certain things.

So, I think that's a I think that's a fair criticism. Um and um you know, I

fair criticism. Um and um you know, I would point to I mean Craigslist, right?

So, that that's some in the book. I mean

to the extent they're heroes in the book right Craig would be a hero you know Brian [laughter] Brian Bellandorf don't change just keep it how it was good and don't over the thing that that

I find awesome about Craig's story is that you know he was just like no like no I'm I'm not going to take the money because it's not my main it's not my

thing like I've I've got enough money and I don't need the money and if I take the money I'm going to have to do a bunch of [ __ ] that I don't want to do and I'm going to have to make the service something that I don't want it

to be and so I'm just not going to do it. And so he didn't do it and he kept

it. And so he didn't do it and he kept the thing the way it was and you know he gets a lot of criticism from for like not modernizing the service. But you

know there's millions and millions of people who like it just the way it is.

and and his insight actually was that, you know, well, it's not really an insight, but he's the only one who ever acted on it, which is that people don't like change, [laughter] so I'm not going to change

it. And and Craig, you know, and the

it. And and Craig, you know, and the funny thing is that um so Craigslist still works. It's still the best place

still works. It's still the best place to get certain things in a lot of cities, you know, it depends, but you know, it still works. It's still

basically free. And Craig has made like a billion dollars.

Go [laughter] read City on the Edge.

It's amazing. We don't read enough these days, especially in the tech industry.

Go read a book. The amazing thing about reading history and this history in particular is yeah, you you remember that you fall victim to the winds of

your time and that there were other times that were also awesome where they think differently. And if you really

think differently. And if you really want to think different in the tech industry, you have to sort of be aware of history. And I think that's one of

of history. And I think that's one of the things honestly that was Steve Jobs was you know a liberal arts person someone who really had a sense of history and I think one of the failings of this current moment in the tech

industry is just people sort of myopically in their own time without that sense of history. So

go read city on the edge. It is a very readable enjoyable uh book and story and I think you will have a sense of perspective that will be gained. And so,

thank you for joining us on the show and giving us uh a taste of what is to be found inside the book.

Well, thank you, Eric. Thank you very much. And if I would just add one uh

much. And if I would just add one uh last thing that uh kind of plays into your point here, I think and one thing that I'm very proud of about the book is that I think it kind of weaves together

a story of the rise of the industry and the evolution of the politics and the evolution of the culture and shows how those things really interrelate with one

another. Um and hopefully that's a

another. Um and hopefully that's a unique contribution of the book. So

great. Thank you very much for coming on the show.

All right. Thank you, Eric. That's our

conversation. If you want to see more of what Jonathan Weber and I are writing, you got to go to newcomer.co. That's our

Substack uh here on the podcast. Please

like, comment, subscribe, tell us who you want me to interview next, and if you're still hankering for more tech podcasting, we've got a chat show for you. That's the Strugal Valley Show with

you. That's the Strugal Valley Show with my Strupal Valley co-hosts Max and James Wilman. Otherwise, I'll see you next

Wilman. Otherwise, I'll see you next week. This is the Newcomer Podcast.

week. This is the Newcomer Podcast.

Thanks so much.