How This Farmer Cut Costs and Increased Profits with Regenerative Agriculture

It was actually 2022, uh, beginning of 2022, and it was a very, um, it was pretty warm spring, um, very warm actually. And, um, and the crop was

actually. And, um, and the crop was actually growing growing away in February, March, and the sheep were on here on this 30 hectare field. Um, the

crop was probably maybe 8 in tall, a winter cereal. Um, and we allowed them

winter cereal. Um, and we allowed them to graze it down to maybe 2 to 3 in. And

we did a, you know, we were quite strict. They had um fairly tight areas

strict. They had um fairly tight areas to graze and they were moved fairly regularly across the field. Anyway, they

they came off the field and within within a week or two, the crop um you know, the last areas that they'd been on had totally recovered and was growing away and you know, if you went on if you

looked at that field two or 3 weeks after they'd left it, you you wouldn't see any. It just looked like a normal

see any. It just looked like a normal weak ungrazed wheat crop. But that crop um that field then yielded at harvest two tons a hectare more than any of the

other winter wheat fields on the farm.

Not noticeably different crop uh soil types, had the same treatment otherwise, but it just had grazing in the winter um or early spring and it and it was incredible.

Hi James, welcome to the Deep Seed Podcast.

>> Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Well,

having me. Well, >> and thank you for hosting me for the last couple of days here in your beautiful, wonderful farm.

>> Pleasure, Raphael. Pleasure.

>> Um, maybe to get started, you could uh introduce yourself for the listeners and tell us a little bit about your personal journey.

>> Sure. Um, my name's James Busher. I I'm

50 years old. Uh I was born in uh born uh close to the farm here in Suffukk and um and grew up here. Um but actually in my 20ies I I I was never my father never

sort of you know pressured me into coming back to the farm. So I I um decided to kind of get away. I went and lived in Sydney, Australia for a year, worked in finance and then came back to

the UK and worked in London uh for a hedge fund for about um in total about eight years or so. Uh, I learned how to trade futures and options, kind of quite

um niche work, lots of staring at screens and all this sort of stuff. And

I came to a point in around 2001 2002 when I just um I got fed up with with London life um and well urban life really. And I I I spoke to my boss and I

really. And I I I spoke to my boss and I said, "Look, I can't work work in in in the city anymore." He said, "Fine. Um

take your computer and go and work in a rural setting." And I ended up moving to

rural setting." And I ended up moving to North Norfolk um on the um a couple of hours from London um on the coast and I was living with a friend of mine who farms up there.

But I was trading with a friend of my bosses local to that um to his to to my friend's place and uh I managed that for a few months but then I realized that actually it wasn't just London. It was

staring at computer screens that was doing my head in. And we had this wonderful opportunity to to to work on the land. Uh my dad was mid60s. Um I was

the land. Uh my dad was mid60s. Um I was seeing what my friend was up to daily um on the farm on his farm. So I I I quit

and I came back and joined um my father here at Netishell in 2003 and um so very different. No real training prior to

different. No real training prior to coming back to the farm in the agricultural world. Um and um yeah, just

agricultural world. Um and um yeah, just learned from the guys that we we employed at the time and also from my father and um yeah, we just ran. So, so

a bit of a background to the farm, that's my personal sort of journey up to when when I came back. But with regards to the farm, my father came here from Scotland. He was brought up in

Scotland. He was brought up in Edinburgh, came back down to Norfolk. He

used to work with his uncle who farms in mid Norfolk, so quite close to here. and

he went to agricultural college and then he he he had an opportunity to take on the tenency of Hall Farm where we are now and it was a big dairy farm um grass

um and he he started doing that and he he ran that for about 20 odd years a dairy dairy business and he grew the herd to about 500 um animals so quite a big herd at the time

and um actually I think it was the bank manager or either the bank manager or or the accountant that came to him and said look you're working around the block, you're not really earning any money. Um,

get rid of those black and white things and sell the milk quotota. And he he took that on board. Um, the work life balance wasn't there basically. And he

he um so in I think it was 1986 he sold the all the cows and the the milk quotota. And then we became quite a

milk quotota. And then we became quite a traditional Breckland farm. This is the area here, the Brex. Um

uh and in by by by by that I mean um we we plowed up the grassland. We became a an arable business. Um but we're on light sandy soils here. So actually

quite good for um growing vegetables and stuff. So we we we got an abstraction

stuff. So we we we got an abstraction license from the environment agency to pull water from underground aquifers um uh to water crops. And we rented out some of the land here for vegetables. So

for potatoes, carrots, parsnips, even onions were here um on and off and then uh we we for ourselves we used to grow winter ser winter and spring cereals and sugar beat meat and so we had quite a

diverse rotation but um that system you know it's quite an extractive sort of system. there's a lot of tillage involved um a lot of water

applied to the um vegetable crops and um we were just seeing quite significant soil degradation over the years and actually from when I came back to 2018 we we were seeing um you know actually

quite significant yield loss in our serial crops and the soils were pretty dead um you know we were seeing compacted soils, waterlogged soils um

anorobic soils generally um And um at that point we kind of felt like we needed to change something.

>> Was there a particular point uh or a particular moment where you really felt like okay you needed to change or was it a gradual process?

>> Uh I would say 20 2018 was kind of the year my epiphal year I call it. I mean

we we I was having personally we were having um I was having some some troubles in my marital and um thankfully we kind of got through that but that was a difficult

time in that regard. I also had a really bad accident on the farm um which not me for six and very nearly died um and um you know I've still got

I'm still feeling the effects of it now to with with hearing loss in one ear and tinus and stuff. So

I came through that and I I a few months after that I saw the the surgeon that operated on me and he he sat me down and he said, "Look, if you if the bleed in your brain had been any worse um you you wouldn't be here." And it was kind of it

was a very emotional time for me. That

was like a Yeah, I totally broke down and I um yeah, I just kind of and so there was that huge um uh uh news and

and that huge event that happened and also on a lesser level on the but still significant on the land we were seeing, you know, we weren't I was I was walking

across our our lawn um in the winter evenings at that time and and seeing lots of worms shooting back as you shone light over the grass. us, you know, pretty much an organic lawn effectively.

And then as soon as we got into our arable fields, there was no life, no worms. And um so yeah, that and and and what had happened personally um

meant that I just felt like we needed to do something different. And um we so we initially in 2018, we just started with um growing some cover crops. So we were growing quite a few spring crops with

the vegetables and the sugar beat. So we

had opportunities to grow covers over the winter. So not leaving any bare soil

the winter. So not leaving any bare soil and then so so we grew covers and we introduced livestock um in the per form of my neighbors um sheep flying flock I think they call it these days. So

Richard and Katie used to bring um sheep on to graze and so we sort of started that journey um into sort of re regenerating soils in 2018

but um the yeah we we ran that for a couple of years but we we were still renting land to the vegetable guys. we were

still growing sugar beat and those those crops in particular are quite heavy on the tillage um for lots of reasons um and and also on the inputs the chemical inputs and

and so I didn't feel like we were doing enough like we were kind of making a small effort in in improving soils but but there was a small effort and then there

was kind of almost a backst step when when the big kit arrived and and um you know the plows and the doners and everything house. So I think in 2020 it

everything house. So I think in 2020 it was we we and during this time from 2018 to 2020 I was listening to quite a few podcasts reading a lot of books about um

soil health and what what can be done and I listened to John Kemp's podcast in late 2020. Um, one of his episodes

late 2020. Um, one of his episodes featured an English guy called Ben Taylor Davis, regen Ben he's known known as and um, what he talked about kind of

really resonated with me and um, I looked him up basically and we we we got talking and he came and visited the farm and I said, "Look, you know, we're not

doing enough. I I I want to implement

doing enough. I I I want to implement change um, fast. I'm not, you know, we we're, as I learned from my accident, you know, you can, we're not here for

long and it can and so I wanted to to to really crack on. So I just said, look, I want to I want to stop doing this and doing that. And um he's been sort of

doing that. And um he's been sort of holding our hands through that process since.

>> So that was what four or five years ago after.

>> Four years ago. Four years ago. Yes.

>> Early 21.

>> We we actually met you, you and I, at Grwell, not this year, the the year before, right? At the bar, just queuing

before, right? At the bar, just queuing for a for a beer.

>> Yes. Absolutely.

>> Yes. And uh I I remember one of the first things I I I told you is that a lot of the farmers I had met told me that it's really important to just go slowly step by step into the sort of

regenerative transition. And you you

regenerative transition. And you you told me well I did exactly the opposite.

I went all in as quickly as I could.

Yeah. Um my friends would say I'm not the most patient of of people. Um and um and actually just just from the stuff I was reading, I mean books like the silent spring um you know I suddenly

realized actually insecticides are just horrific products. They're very cheap

horrific products. They're very cheap and they're they're they're you know widely used in conventional agriculture.

Um and I and I just thought we we we don't need that. We can farm without those. Um, and I didn't like, you know,

those. Um, and I didn't like, you know, I've always been interested in wildlife and conservation and so we've always been doing stewardshipy sort of stuff, but it's felt like, you know, parts of the land, um, we'll have a a pollen and

nectar strip around a field or a field corner that we leave um, uh, sort of for nature as it were, but then we're still farming in in aggressive um, heavy input style in the middle of the field. So, it

was sort of a them and us kind of thing.

I didn't feel so I wanted to sort of farm with nature a bit more. Um and you know I I as well when I met you I was 48 I guess. Um

I guess. Um and and um I just felt like we need you know I just wanted to implement change fast. So insecticides went um we decided

fast. So insecticides went um we decided we didn't want to use fungicides anymore. We didn't want to use seed

anymore. We didn't want to use seed treatments. Um and we wanted to stop

treatments. Um and we wanted to stop using plant growth regulators.

And as well as that we wanted to cut back on our synthetic fertiliz. That's a

you know it's a big it's a lot to do um straight away and um there has been you know there's been yield losses it's not a a step to be underestimated but I for me

I needed someone to hold my hand and actually you know I just don't think there are enough advisers to help us go this go down this route because it's >> change at scale is doing anything

different I mean particularly to your neighbors or particularly um nationally is is a is is a big step and it's a brave step. Um

brave step. Um >> but I I I haven't looked back.

>> Amazing. Yeah. You know, that's actually something that a lot of my guests have said, both farmers and experts, is that we we really need independent aronomists agroecologists >> funded by the state ideally or partially

at least >> to help farmers. How how helpful would that be for farmers like yourselves who who want to change the way they farm?

>> Oh, just enormous. Enormous. I mean

unfortunately you know there's not many Benz around and um I mean there are a few other um guys in the UK that that can help um but you know he's getting more and more um queries basically

everyone's really struggling in the convent well but in farming in general but um you know inputs are going getting more expensive margins are getting squeezed quality prices are low you know

there's there's it's tough out there and um I've had I've had growers come here to to farm walks and stuff and they're, you know, they're working with big a businesses who are providing an

aronomous to them. They're buying the chemicals from them, fertilizer, um, and they're miserable. Um, but they don't

they're miserable. Um, but they don't feel they can kind of do without it. Um,

because they don't know. It's the

unknown. It's the

Yeah, it's it's the worry that if you don't use um let's say a fungicide um the crop's going to basically die. It's

going to be a total disaster. But and

that's how we felt a few years ago. I

mean, we felt when we first started thinking about cutting back on fungicide use. So probably 2019 um you know we

use. So probably 2019 um you know we were getting advice from from our aronomist to um apply let's say a T3 or

a T2 um to mitigate possible rust um infection or whatever it might be in a serial crop. And you know I'd say to the

serial crop. And you know I'd say to the guys right okay well let's just you know he'd send me the wreck and we'd we'd we'd just miss out a section of the field. We would just wouldn't spray a

field. We would just wouldn't spray a couple of tram lines in the field and we'd feel like like naughty school kids doing it. It was it was and and actually

doing it. It was it was and and actually what what what the effect of that was when we did it is when we ran the combine through the crop the there would

seem to be a minor a tiny yield loss where we hadn't used that T2 spray but actually the cost of the chemical um

plus the pass um with the sprayer would have um against the the cost of the um uh the price of the commodity um it would have we would have lost a little

bit of money for for going through the crop with that T2 spray. So, I mean, it was negligible, but we didn't lose a crop. We lost a tiny amount of yield,

crop. We lost a tiny amount of yield, but it kind of then led us down the route of um of actually going away from monocross and and companioning cropping and all the other stuff that I'm sure we'll talk about today.

>> Yeah. So, so two two different things I'm hearing here is one uh one of the big reasons why farmers are, you know, struggling to change the way they farm in transition is u is that um they are

lack lacking the technical knowledge or the the access to knowledge right on these new regenerative farming and science and and all of that. And and the other reason is is risk. That's actually

something that a lot of the the experts we've just spoken to in the last few days, they've pretty much all said is is one of the key reasons why farmers don't uh kind of go towards regenerative. But

we were talking yesterday um at the dinner table and and you said something really interesting that's that um has stuck with me.

>> Yeah. Um, you were talking about all of these other farmers, you know, in the area and all of the struggles they're having right now and how they're they're really struggling to make ends meet. Um,

and because the yields are falling down because one year is too dry, one year is too wet, because, you know, uh, the price of of commodity crops is is too low, all of these reasons. And and so

you you told me, I'm not sure the exact quote, but um, everyone's asking me how I can deal with so much risk, but actually who's taking the biggest risk here? Yeah. Right.

here? Yeah. Right.

>> Yeah. Absolutely right. So your well we'll come on to that in a second but just with the first part you were talking about independent aronomy um if we could just go back um >> of course

>> I think we I was on a panel at groundswell this year and we were talking about aronomists and how that how this works but in the UK a lot of the economists are working for

big a firms a chem firms and you know they're they're in sort of incentivized to sell you chemicals um that you may or may not need on the farm and we were generally the general view was what needs to happen is that

aronomists need to be you know they're professionals they understand um pest and diseases um but we need as farmers we need to pay them um rather than sort

of free advice and and then we use the chemicals they're selling us um and they're getting a bit of an income from from that side of things we need to pay them us farmers need to pay these aronomists um probably more money for

their professional advice so they can maintain an income but also So we then look at other ways of of of of going

forward without reaching for a can and I don't you know unfortunately these these ad chem firms make you know huge amounts of money from from selling chemicals to to farmers and

and so that's going to be a big hit for them. I don't I I I don't really know

them. I don't I I I don't really know the way forward with that, but I I you know, I think that you can I would like to think that we could we could pull out pull off some independent and get some decent independent advice from them for

a fee um without having to reach for a camp. But that's that's that side of

camp. But that's that's that side of things.

>> Absolutely. Um but going back to the second point um with the conventional growers and risk um we were talking about a situation you know when the

Ukraine war started with a massive spike in fertilizer prices I was talking to farmers after that season after that growing season and some of them were saying that these conventional guys big

big farmers down in Essics they're they're spending at the time they were spending between 1,500 and2,000 a hectare uh on fix with on costs fixed and variable costs on growing a wheat

crop let's say and you know at the time when the uh so a few months after the war broke out I think as prices sort of settled down

again commodity prices settled down there came a point when when was 200 between 200 and250 a ton their growing costs were you know between 1,500

and2,000 a ton so they need to hit yields of 8 n tons a hectare just to break even We on our farm, we're trying

to keep costs below 600 a hectare. So,

you know, I need to I need to yield uh three tons a hectare to break even now. And then I and so exactly as I said

now. And then I and so exactly as I said to you the other day, I mean, who's taking the risk here? We we're, you know, the pressure on them to get that those yields when the biggest factor is really is drought and, you know, is

weather conditions through the spring, through the growing season. I feel like we're we're the ones um you know being far more sensible and taking way less risk.

>> Yeah. Okay. Um for people like me who have kind of no idea about these things uh is know 8 n 10 tons per per hectare is is that a lot? What's the sort of >> uh so

not for us here uh on our soils but down in well funny enough again uh ongoing chats with my friends down in on on sort of Essex clay so much stronger stronger

land that in in years gone by they have been able to achieve 10 tons a hectare um but in the last few years they're just not able to do that so some of these guys now they're they're looking

at seven and a half maybe eight max so they've and they'll freely admit Yeah, they've just overwork the soils. Um, okay. You

know, a fairly limited rotation of maybe oil seed rape and wheat.

>> Um, too much tillage, too much reliance on inputs and and and they're they're they're ending up with quite dead soils and they are massively concerned about the situations down there now.

>> I bet. Yeah. So, okay. So, basically 10 tons is like the the best you can expect in a good year.

>> Yeah. Uh and and this is getting harder and harder to achieve anyway with the the state of the soil and with climate change and all of that. Yeah.

>> Um and therefore for if a farmer just to break even needs to to achieve that that's >> it's a big ask big ask. It's a huge risk because best case scenario is going to break even and Yeah. and in most cases

actually lose money.

>> Yeah. Exactly. And that's why you know subsidies have been phased out. Um I

think they they be began phasing out, you know, they began being phased out a few years ago in the UK, a sort of single um arable area payment and now they're they're totally gone. Um and

that was, you know, for many years that was kind of the um the profit really of a farming business. Um and now that's gone. So I'm I'm mega concerned about

gone. So I'm I'm mega concerned about the future for for um well for a lot of growers, but especially the conventional ones. I mean I suppose in some ways it

ones. I mean I suppose in some ways it might strongarm them into change. Um so

perhaps that's a good thing >> for sure. Would you recommend any farmers sort of starts looking towards regenerative farming or is that depending on the on the context?

>> Uh I would absolutely recommend every farmer to to do so but it's just you know it's a big step and and not only you need everyone on the same page. So

in a farming business, I mean, we were when we began change, we had two guys working for us who who were young and they're they had worked on conventional farms before, but they they were

interested in what we were looking to do. They come to grounds well with me.

do. They come to grounds well with me.

They they learn from Ben when he comes to the farm. We're all kind of in it together, and they're all we're all driven towards the same goal of kind of building reasonable yields and improving

soil health and so on. Um

but um um you know family wise my father he's been farming you know the same way for a lot of years and and it's been you know as as stipulated by the government.

They wanted you know food security and so on and farming every acre um filling in ditches and so on. That was the way the way it was for a lot of years. And

so it's been quite hard for him to accept the change we're making except uh accepting um maybe a few weeds growing in the field or you know just looking at things a bit differently. But he's come

around to it now and he's I think he's really proud of what what we've achieved. But it's it's yeah it's hard.

achieved. But it's it's yeah it's hard.

You need everyone pulling in the same direction. You can't have any anchors um

direction. You can't have any anchors um or breaks on. Um, and I guess whether it's a a relative or whether it's um farm employees who have been used to um

farming conventionally for a lot of years, they're almost I don't mean willing it to fail, but when you make changes there, you know, they're used to conventional growing and

conventional whatever the doing jobs at certain times of the year that they've always done and and it's just and it's kind of resistance to change >> of course and no one likes to be told that what you're doing is Yeah.

>> And so they don't want you to prove them wrong, I guess. I mean, it's it's it's normal.

>> Yeah. And actually for us with with it going back to the aronomist the guy we're using he's a good guy and I you know he helped us a lot over the years but when we took Ben on Ben just said

look you can't have um we wanted to keep the chemical aronomist on cuz I I kind of wanted to let him down let him down gently but I wanted to possibly still receive some chemical advice uh some herbicide advice for weed control

because that was still something that we were doing a little bit of but actually Ben said um look I can give you that.

So, let's move on from from the previous guy. And um and actually the guy that we

guy. And um and actually the guy that we had, the the chemical aronomist, you know, he he would come on farm and he'd do he'd have a wander around and and um you know, we'd have a chat in the kitchen afterwards over a coffee and

he'd say, you know, that weed might be a problem, but he'd also say, you know, he's hearing about let's say rust infestations in wheat in the area and blah blah blah. So, you end up with a bit of doubt about what you're doing,

which wasn't helping. You know, you just need to be positive. We'd made a decision. we weren't going to use

decision. we weren't going to use certain pesticides and um I wasn't about to back down but you just need to be um you know positive about that and you can't have any negative any doubts in

your in your head from anyone.

>> Yeah. I really hope you're enjoying this conversation so far. I just need to take a few seconds of your time to tell you about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast, Soul Capital. Soil Capital

is a company that accelerates the transition to regenerative agriculture by financially rewarding farmers who improve the health of their soils.

They're a fantastic company. I love what they're doing and I'm really proud to be partnering with them for the Deep Seed Podcast. If you'd like to learn more

Podcast. If you'd like to learn more about them and we'll leave a link in the description of this episode. Now, let's

get back to the conversation. Um, I'd

love to talk in more detail about your, you know, your current farming system.

um because you told us about what you were farming before for for a number of years then your sort of transition process. Uh so yeah it would be great to

process. Uh so yeah it would be great to if you could explain now what are you farming, how does your system work, how does your rotation work. You don't

hesitate to give us as much >> info and detail as possible so we can get the full picture.

>> Sure. Sure. So um you know prior to 2018 we we had a pretty diverse rotation with with veggies and you know so we we were you know we were pretty we had a nice

wide wide rotation but actually when we got when when we said um when we gave the veggie vegetable guys notice and also the sugar beat we decided to come out of sugar beat we were then left with

um wheat barley oats that we were growing ourselves and we wanted to bring in some additional crops obviously um so we then looked Um well in fact we

started growing beans. We started

growing peas. We started growing oil seed rape. We also started looking at

seed rape. We also started looking at some quite niche crops like chia. Uh we

tried borage. Uh we tried uh a flour. I

mean some quite very niche little crops growing growing those for a guy in uh uh Essex and they were used in healthcare.

Um well uh chia uh sorry cheeria and arif flour are kind of superfoods and um borage is used in healthcare for for for creams and stuff. But anyway we they

were interesting crops and it kept a fairly broad rotation but um we kind of learned that actually some of those crops weren't weren't good. They were

quite challenging to grow cheer especially and borage also on our soils.

Um so we then actually and we then decided actually they needed to come out. So for the last 2 3 years we've

out. So for the last 2 3 years we've been just growing um rape, winter wheat, spring wheat, bit of spring barley occasionally, some oats, uh some beans

and peas. So still fairly a fairly um

and peas. So still fairly a fairly um robust mix. Um and they're all crops

robust mix. Um and they're all crops that we could harvest in the summer.

What we didn't want to be doing was harvesting crops in the um autumn um where conditions might be wet um and we make a mess. So it was all we were

looking to to plant stuff that we could harvest in basically in August and July um when soils were at their driest. Uh

we could go in and out, take the crop off and then get a cover crop straight in behind. Um and and what we were

in behind. Um and and what we were looking to try and do was grow maybe 50% autumn sewn crops and 50% spring. So

enabling us to grow a lot of covers um and yeah and that's what we've been doing and I guess um initially for the first year or so

we were looking to just grow um uh sort of monocrops of those but we quickly realized that we needed to that wasn't really helpful um when we we'

taken the decision to not use fundicides and insecticides. So we then from 2022

and insecticides. So we then from 2022 23 we started looking at companions.

So um since then we have um plant we we grow um a legume with a cereal or a cereal with a legume um >> together companion it means like you grow them together on the same field.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> So initially we grew um oats with beans.

We'd grow uh oats being kind of the main crop. Um, so we plant the the oats at

crop. Um, so we plant the the oats at around 200 kilos a hectare and the beans at about 40. Um, but what we found with that, the first year we did that, we we did a bit of a trial. We had an oat and

bean field and we had a monocrop oat field very close by.

We were going to um grow them in the same way. Uh, no fungicides, no

same way. Uh, no fungicides, no insecticides or PTRs, but um and and limited amounts of nitrogen, but just see um what what what came of it. And

that year we had a pretty wet spring, quite humid as well. I mean, perfect disease conditions. Um, and I went into

disease conditions. Um, and I went into the oat and bean crop in early May, I think it was. And it was looking absolutely wonderful, beautiful green,

very, very healthy. And then I walked 500 yards down the farm track to the monocrop oat uh crop and it was um it

was decimated by rust. I mean it was it was it yielded very poorly. It looked

very sick and it just and about two days later I had a school tour come around and they were all a students learning 17-year-old guys learning um doing a

BTech in agriculture. Some of them um based uh on very conventional farms and it was it was great. It was wonderful timing. I took them around. We looked at

timing. I took them around. We looked at those two and and they just were flabbergasted by it. So, you know, it really proved to me that companions are extremely effective at mitigating pest

and disease pressures. And actually from that that so that was kind of our trial year. From then we started for the last

year. From then we started for the last couple of years we've been companioning everything. Um so we grow we grow wheat

everything. Um so we grow we grow wheat with um clover or veetch um sometimes peas. We did a pea collaboration with a

peas. We did a pea collaboration with a local business recently. All beans. Um

so we we try a mix of things. Um,

>> so most of the time it's a a grain and a legume together.

>> Yeah, most of the time it's a grain and a legume. So you're getting the benefit

a legume. So you're getting the benefit the nitrogen fixing um ability of the legume uh that they're you know pulling from the the nitrogen from the atmosphere releasing it um via their

roots into the soil for the serial crop to benefit from and also the following crop to benefit. Um I've heard I mean varying um suggestions as to what the um

amount of nitrogen is that they leave in the soil but up to around 100 it seems to be around 100 maybe a tiny bit more 100 kilos of nitrogen residual nitrogen

left in the soil after a legume crop >> free nitrogen I mean it's incredible so um >> so that yeah that's been a real I know we we grow seed rape with veetch and

clover we grow um uh trit Tequali or rye with um veetch. Uh we grow peas with um trite. We know just whatever. But it

trite. We know just whatever. But it

seems to work. And um you know there's a cost with some of the um companions for separation at the end. But

>> that's a fraction of what we'd be spending on inputs to to control pests and diseases. So

and diseases. So >> just just technically speaking just to to get to the bottom of this. So, first

of all, when you plant those uh mixed companion crops, do you just uh have a mix of the the seeds in your in your machine and you just uh plant them together at the same time with the same machine?

>> Yeah. So, we've got a disc drill, a sort of direct disc drill. Um so, we can plant straight into a cover crop with this. Um it's got two hoppers in it on

this. Um it's got two hoppers in it on the back of it. Two seed hoppers. So,

we'll fill one with the cereal and the other one with the legume.

Uh calibrate the two. um systems

accordingly and then um they both run down the same uh seed pipes and and are drilled together. So we don't have um

drilled together. So we don't have um with our system we don't have a row of um wheat and then a row of um veetch let's say um within that single drill

row we've got veetch and wheat.

>> Okay. Yeah. In this case, you said something like 200, what was it? 200

kilos of of of the the grain and then like 40 50 of the So, so what the machine will just automatically then then plant one, two, three grains, one

legume one two threeact randomly, I guess. Randomly, but that's kind of the ratio. I mean, I think there are drills now that, in fact, I know there are drills now that that can plant um a row of wheat and then a row of

beans and then a row of wheat and a row of beans or whatever. But I I don't know whether there's any benefit to doing that. Um maybe if you want to then take

that. Um maybe if you want to then take out the companion later in the season after it perhaps it's done the bulk of its good work. So maybe you could run

through with a a hoe, let's say an inter row hoe that would take out the companion crop if you then didn't want the separation cost at the end of it.

But for us, you know, these these companions like the Vet or the Bean or whatever, they're still they're valuable for us. So, we will separate ideally on

for us. So, we will separate ideally on farm or elsewhere and then take back the the companion seed and use it again.

>> So, yeah. So, once once it's grown, the both crops are ready to harvest at the same time, >> right? So, I guess you you pick crops

>> right? So, I guess you you pick crops that grow at the same speed.

>> I mean, a lot of people have asked me what do they mature together? That's a

big like puts the skids on a lot of people from trying this cuz they're worried about um whatever ripening a lot or maturing a lot earlier than the other crop. But

crop. But >> growing up together, they seem to just mature together and we just we've never had a problem. They Yeah, we've they all seem to be both fit and ready to go. We

harvest them together and so you then end up uh with a grain store full of um a mix. Um, and as long as you grow

a mix. Um, and as long as you grow species that are easily separable, um, you know, very different different sized plants,

>> different sizes, seeds and grains, so the machine can easily kind of recognize the two sizes. Okay.

>> I mean, it costs around for us about 20 a ton.

>> So, to separate.

>> So, you you separate them on the farm.

You have a machine for that or do you hire someone outside to do that?

>> Uh, a bit of both. We've got a machine on farm that's a little bit basic, but it has the ability to separate to some degree. But actually the the generally

degree. But actually the the generally to do it properly um for us um we haven't got the resources to spend um somewhere in the region between probably

50 to £100,000 on a you know state-of-the-art seed separation system.

So we send them locally to a to a seed merchant. He'll do it for us.

merchant. He'll do it for us.

>> Okay. Yeah. Um and and if we look a bit deeper into the finance of it all since you're you know you have a background in finance. I'm yeah I'm assuming that that

finance. I'm yeah I'm assuming that that you have some numbers maybe you could share um if we compare you know just a a wheat field and then a field where you

have this combination of different crops uh the different associated costs and benefits how does it compare?

So the with the with the the way we're farming now, we're we're trying, as I said, to keep the cost below £600 a

hectare all in. Um and you know, we we've removed um so so we rely on quite a lot of organic manure um that we apply um uh which which is a lot cheaper than

synthetic fertilizer. We've reduced our

synthetic fertilizer. We've reduced our synthetic fertilizer input costs by about at least a half. um we don't have the insect side, the fungicide, the PGR

costs. We try and homes save almost

costs. We try and homes save almost always our seed, which is a lot cheaper than purchased seed from a from a seed

merchant. Um and yieldwise, is that what

merchant. Um and yieldwise, is that what you were like everything? So, um I guess you you have extra expenses you here in in the case of manure, for example.

Yeah. uh the the the seed separation that maybe the seeds themselves are more expensive for the legumes than they are for the so there there are extra costs >> and there's their whole range of benefits and I'm kind of hoping you can

give us a kind of a nice picture of how this compares.

>> Yeah, I mean we because we we will all you know by and large we will home save our seed. So if we're growing stuff

our seed. So if we're growing stuff we'll have it separated. We'll take back um you know one part of that and use it again the following year.

I mean, our seed costs I I I think I may be wrong here, but if you were to buy a ton of seed, a ton of wheat from a local merchant, you'd probably be looking for a modernish variety, maybe six or 700 a

ton for a for a bag of seed.

We're home. I mean, the most we can achieve with some of the businesses who we're selling to for a price of a ton of wheat would be around 300 with wild farms. We'll come on to that probably.

But um but otherwise you know commodity wheat price at the moment is around 200 even less £160 a ton I think. So you

know if we home save we're immediately at a big advantage to those buying um seed treated seed often from a seed merchant.

>> Um I think our yields um going onto that we probably you know our best yields at the moment are probably around six tons. and

and when you've taken out the legume element, let's say in a cereal crop, we're looking at around five tons of cereal and a ton of legume. Um

so, um yeah, margin wise, we're we're we're significantly better off than a conventional grower. We've still got

conventional grower. We've still got five tons of clean seed. Um and and we've got and we've got the legume component to keep to either sell or to

keep for for future use. Um

>> and then you also uh reduce your your costs in in fertilizers. It's free

nitrogen.

>> Yeah. So the legging. Yeah. So we're

getting a big kick a big leg up with the the free nitrogen. I mean I think so the first year we we we we reduce the nitrogen from I mean a convent a convent conventional grower growing a milling

wheat will use around 240 kilos of nitrogen. We're growing milling wheat uh

nitrogen. We're growing milling wheat uh with about 90 kilos of nitrogen. 90 80

90 of synthetic nitrogen. And there's

opportunity to probably reduce that further.

>> But um you know it's it sort of baffles me when when I talk to farmers like you and I've spoken to quite a few farmers over the last couple of years um farming in general and food production has been

optimized to produce as much as possible for the lowest possible cost. yet. Um I

see that using certain methods of regenerative farming and here just companion planting yeah >> separating seeds you can already you know save a lot on your costs and and

improve your your revenue.

>> Yeah.

>> So I'm I'm wondering sometimes why we're not seeing more farmers do that. It

seems like you know >> Yeah. I I'm with you. It's just it's

>> Yeah. I I'm with you. It's just it's coming off that chemical sort of bandwagon or whatever you want to call it. I I it's hard to take that step off.

it. I I it's hard to take that step off.

You've got a lot of, you know, a lot of farmers, a lot of conventional growers have got a a guy selling them fertilizer, a guy selling them chemicals, whatever it might be. They

sit in the kitchen, they have a coffee with them and chat, and they consider them, you know, they're their friends often. Um, and it's it's quite hard. It really is hard to take

quite hard. It really is hard to take that step away from that. and just and and actually maybe some growers just you know they've got they've got they're they're bringing money in from somewhere

else so they they've diversified whether it's solar whether it's commercial um buildings on the commercial letting you know that's propping up a failing arable

business. So sometimes it's quite easy

business. So sometimes it's quite easy to sort of think, you know, we're not making any money out of the arable side, but actually it doesn't really matter so much because we've got a bit

of a good income here. But um and often farmers, you know, farmers are busy busy people generally and and um and it's quite easy to spend a lot of time working hard, sitting on the

tractor doing stuff and and not taking a step back and and actually looking at the figures and thinking um you know, thinking about change and working out how to do it. And maybe that

was a benefit for me in 2018. I had at least 6 months maybe longer where I was um pretty much out of the business uh

recovering and um it just afforded me an opportunity to to look at it with a with new eyes and and and uh take a different perspective on things.

>> Right. Okay. Um yeah, I sort of interrupted you a little bit. you were

talking about the whole system uh your whole farming system and then we stopped at a companion planting because I wanted to know more about that but maybe you could continue from there.

>> Yeah. So um beyond that we we we we've now in the last couple years we we've um one of the guys on the farm is really interested in well both of them actually

but they're interested in in more livestock on the farm. So we we purchased together um a um a red pole which is a suffk it's a sort of native

um breed. Um and uh so we've got about

um breed. Um and uh so we've got about now about 40 uh red pole beef animals that were looking to move around the

farm in a sort of mob grazing um technique. Um we've got um so we've

technique. Um we've got um so we've still got the flying flock, Richard and um Katie's flying flock of sheep that come on the land and we've also got a a

very small um freerange egg uh egg hen business and they're um as we saw this morning they're on a we built this little egg eggmobile thing and they and we move them every 3 days around the

farm so they they're on fresh ground all the time and we we're working with um some nice local businesses to supply them with eggs and so on. Um so yeah so we've we've had some livestock

integration. Um and actually going just

integration. Um and actually going just quickly on that point um in when was it 2021 I think when we we at the time we were just grazing uh the cover crops

with with our neighbors sheep and then we thought no maybe we'll try um grazing some winter cereal you know quite a forward winter cereal in February March time. So we got them to bring their

time. So we got them to bring their animals on um and they grazed um our winter cereal, a winter wheat crop quite hard. Um so

hard. Um so they were acting a bit of doing some plant growth regulation, eating some diseased leaf leaves. We were getting some um free manure on the land. Um

>> wait, so your crop is still growing there?

>> Yeah. Yeah. The stop crop still growing and then you you put the sheeps in and they don't destroy all your your crops.

They just >> No. So they ate it down. You have to be

>> No. So they ate it down. You have to be a bit controlled. I mean, you don't want to graze it really hard, but this it was actually 2022, uh, beginning of 2022, and it was a very, um, it was pretty

warm spring. Um, very warm actually.

warm spring. Um, very warm actually.

And, um, and the crop was actually growing growing away in February, March, and the sheep were on here on this 30 hectare field. Um, the crop was probably

hectare field. Um, the crop was probably maybe 8 8 in tall, a winter cereal. Um,

and we allowed them to graze it down to maybe two to three inches. And we did a, you know, we were quite strict. They had

um fairly tight areas to graze and they were moved fairly regularly across the field. Anyway, they they came off the

field. Anyway, they they came off the field and within within a week or two, the crop um you know, the last areas that they'd been on had totally recovered and was growing

away and you know, if you went on if you looked at that field two or 3 weeks after they'd left it, you you wouldn't see any. It just looked like a normal

see any. It just looked like a normal weak ungrazed wheat crop. But that crop um that field then yielded at harvest two tons a hectare more than any of the

other winter wheat fields on the farm.

Not noticeably different crop uh soil types had the same treatment otherwise but it just had grazing in the winter um or early spring and it and it was incredible.

>> And did that cost you anything?

>> No, they paid us for the great they paid us a bit of money for for the for the food for the winter food. So

>> we were like right okay. Uh so the new policy then from uh was right they'll graze cover crops they'll graze catch crops you know the crops the the covers we put in between harvest and October when we made some winter cereals but

also they'll graze any winter sewn crop be it rape um or a winter cereal um they will graze it in the winter time. So we

have sheep on the land from early October right through until until March, even later sometimes. And you know their their um their effect can't cannot be

underestimated. I mean there's a guy in

underestimated. I mean there's a guy in Glossier, Ed Horton, who's a big quite a big social media kind of guy and um he talks about it quite a lot. the the

benefits of of of of grazing on on you know regulating growth on these on these often quite lush crops that then attract potentially disease. So you're getting

potentially disease. So you're getting the sheep doing some growth regulation and also some disease eating diseased leaves. So you then end up when the

leaves. So you then end up when the plant begins to grow again, it just fires up new perfectly green um leaves and um you know any disease issues have

been um mitigated basically. So it's

it's a great thing. It's amazing. So now

we walked onto the >> the livestock.

>> Yeah, the livestock. Okay. Yeah, keep

going.

>> Yeah. So the So So yeah, and actually this year, so we got the red pole the beef animals a couple of years ago and actually so far they've just been on herbal lays. They've been on some cover

herbal lays. They've been on some cover crops um and grassland we've got on the farm, but actually what we're looking to do this year, I've been looking quite a lot of reading a bit about mob grazing and proper, you know, the benefits and

we just need to get the infrastructure in place. But the plan this year is to

in place. But the plan this year is to when conditions allow, so when it's not too wet, is to allow possibly some of the the the animals some well the beef herd on some of the forward um winter

winter crops and just just move them pretty fast across and just see what happens. I mean, I get I get it. It's

happens. I mean, I get I get it. It's

not for everyone on the heavier land in in wet conditions, you probably don't want animals um particularly cows on the field, but um but I think it could work for us. And the great thing with sheep,

for us. And the great thing with sheep, you know, they're they're they're pretty light. Their footfall is not really that

light. Their footfall is not really that noticeable. So, it works well for us.

noticeable. So, it works well for us.

And and so you're getting the some yield benefit, you're getting free manure, fertilizer, and you're also getting a you know, we get we get paid to do it.

So I think generally the cost of uh would get paid by the sheep people for the for the feed and the cost the payment we get for them generally covers some of our if we have to buy seed any

cover crop seed or whatever which we do sometimes have to do um that's generally covered by and also sometimes the the the cost of the drill the pass with the drill so and that's covered by by by the

by the sheep so it's a win-win. Yeah,

definitely. So, a lot of the the experts I spoke to in the last few days, they told me that for them the ideal type of farming obviously depends on the context, but in many cases is mixed

farming, a blend of arable permanent permanent uh crops like tree crops.

Yeah.

>> And then integration of animals.

>> And well, it seems like you you've gotten there already, right? You walked

into the field this morning. What I saw was um strips kind of like for arable fields, lines of trees every was it 24 m.

>> 24 m. Yeah.

>> Yeah. And now you're talking about integrating well sheep, chickens and and cows right?

>> Yeah.

>> Right.

>> Yeah. It's it's um so that what we looked at this morning was an agroforestry scheme that we put in in um a couple of years ago. uh always been

interested, as I said earlier, in um doing some putting in some environmental measures on the farm. Uh doing some environmental stewardship. Um we farm

environmental stewardship. Um we farm around an old air base. So, uh where you went this morning, Raphael, if we'd carried on a bit further, um it was an old Second World War American air base.

It's pretty exposed up there. Um there's

not too much, not many trees, not many hedros. I mean, we've planted over the

hedros. I mean, we've planted over the years, we've we've put in a lot of lot of hedge hedros. We planted quite a few trees um along the edges of fields, but we felt uh agroforestry always

interested me actually putting trees in the field and the benefits that that can bring. And um so yeah, I started looking

bring. And um so yeah, I started looking into this about 3 years ago. We went to a few farm some forward thinking guys in the UK, Steven Briggs up in near Peters.

He's he's he's done um I think he's he put an a silver arable aggroforestry scheme about um late 80s I think it was Wakelands which is close to us in Suffukk similar sort of time you know

they're kind of real trailblazers trailblazers in that world and um yeah and it was something I wanted to do just just change the landscape really a bit

um and so we got some help locally with a really good guy um Sam who who who came on board and he's been our bit of our go between between the Woodland

Trust who have been a massive help to us um in in implementing this um and ourselves. And um so what we looked at

ourselves. And um so what we looked at this morning was a 13 hectare field. Um

we looked at um you know the suggestion is that to to plant in a north south um axis so you can so that the cash crop that you grow between your trees doesn't

get shaded out too much. Um and and then it was really we were looking to try and work the scheme well with how we were farming. So

the size of our kit. So how we've how we've done it on the farm is we've we've planted 4 m rows of of a sort of pollen and nectar legumey type mix. Um and then

24 m of a cash crop and then another 4 m strip of pollen and nectar. And in the 4 m strip of pollen and nectar we've then been planting our trees. So they're

protected either side by a 2 m sort of buffer. And with the 24 m of cash crop,

buffer. And with the 24 m of cash crop, our sprayer is 24 m wide, our drill is 4 m wide, combine around eight. Um so it sort of works for the kit. And that was

I would definitely make sure you work um if you're going to do it. Um my advice would be make sure that the you know the cash crop is is significantly wide to um

to work for your equipment. Um and with regards to your your your strip where the tree within which the trees sit, um my view is and having spoken to other

people is that 4 m is probably the minimum uh width that you want to do to to allow the trees and the roots to kind of get going without interference. Um so

yeah, we've put that in and we with with the trees we went for with Sam's help was you know what like what do you want to grow? What and diversity is for me

to grow? What and diversity is for me diver diversity uh in the arable crop and in anything that I do I like I'm kind of that's key. Uh so what we've

decided is we've planted four rows of um and which are in a sort of short rotation cppus system. So in those rows we've predominantly gone with hazel and willow but we've also put in some sweet

chestnuts and walnut um uh and one or two other sort of native trees. Um, and then in the every other

trees. Um, and then in the every other row, we've gone with a fruit and nut row, and we've gone with a real mix.

We've gone with, um, two or three different apple types. We've gone with plums uh quint cherry um green

gauge, apricot, um, and then with the nuts, we've gone with almond again, some more sweet chestnut, and I think some more walnuts. Yeah, a lot of diversity.

more walnuts. Yeah, a lot of diversity.

And we've we've rather than kind of a block of apples and then a block of something else, we've actually just I'm pretty sure in our agroforestry there's no tree two trees that stand together um that are the same.

>> Yeah.

>> So a real mix and I get often get asked what the hell are you going to do when you come to pick them? Ex

>> exactly my my next question. Yeah,

>> which is um yeah, which is a valid point. And um

point. And um yeah, I mean we we've spoken when I talked about this putting in this system, I spoke to some local businesses. We've got a local farm shop

businesses. We've got a local farm shop a few miles away and they're really interested in taking our fruit. So we do have an outlet for that. But and and with the nuts similarly, we have an outlet. Um but when it comes down to

outlet. Um but when it comes down to picking, I'm not sure at the moment. I

mean, it may be my children's problem.

uh I'm joking about that, but you know it's it takes a long time for this um five maybe 10 years for the system to really get going um and start producing

um fruits and nuts and stuff. But um I'm hoping maybe some volunteers we we might look apart from supplying farm shops and so

on, we might look at a a pick and uh you know what do you call it? a um

>> self-picking kind of >> self picking type system. Yeah. You come

and pick or we we we pick and then we maybe press a load of stuff and and and sell some juice. I I don't really know.

I mean, it's it's a problem that's going to Yeah. It's something it's an ongoing

to Yeah. It's something it's an ongoing concern but >> uh but the priority was really put on on the health of the system, on biodiversity, on the diversity of trees and then the Yeah. And with the coping

road, just to go back to those that lot, we've got two wood chip boilers on the farm. Uh we're we're currently buying in

farm. Uh we're we're currently buying in wood chip elsewhere. And so um you know those hazels and those willows we can chip up and use in our wood chip boilers as well as for composting as well as for

um maybe for hedge laying as well.

They're both both those species are good for for hedge laying um which we're trying to do a bit more of on the farm.

So that they're going to that's going to be useful for for many different things that you know that's just >> yeah just just for to make sure everyone's on board. What what do we mean by coping?

>> Copising. So um probably when the plants get to probably 10t tall, we will go through and we'll cut the plant uh cut those trees at um almost ground level, a

few inches above ground level.

Um, and then we'll remove the the, you know, what we've cut um for for the for the um for whatever we want to use it for as as discussed short short while ago. But and then that plant will just

ago. But and then that plant will just just shoot again from from base level and get going again. So it's just it's just a continuum really. It just keeps going >> for biomass for yeah for biomass for for

wood chip for composting um and for hedge laying really are our three three markets for that.

>> The the fruit trees and fruit and nut trees. Did you um select certain

trees. Did you um select certain varieties that uh are ripe at the you know at the same time for for harvesting or did you take that into consideration and the way you

>> So so the great thing in the UK and I don't know how long this will run but currently the Woodland Trust um we we you can do it privately you can do it off your own back you know pay for

everything yourself but actually we we approached the Woodland Trust and they they've been really helpful they they came out they looked at our proposals and they approved of our they approved

our scheme and they've supplied us with everything by the labor. So that's

trees, guards around the trees, um wood uh wooden stakes, um fasteners and so on.

So and they're really good trees too, but they have to be um native trees, you know, rootstock, native rootstock or

native trees. So um so yeah um we we've

native trees. So um so yeah um we we've been following their guidelines and they've been uh working with us and so all we have to pay for really is the labor and that's

not to be underestimated. It takes a huge amount. I we planted um two or

huge amount. I we planted um two or three thousand trees in that field that we looked at this morning. And not only is the planting takes, you know, not only have you got to plant the tree, you've got to we put a we put a wood chip mulch around the base of all those

trees to act as a weed weed suppressor and also to try and hold the moisture underneath. And um and then um four

underneath. And um and then um four posts with the fruit and nut trees, four posts. one one to attach the tree to and

posts. one one to attach the tree to and then three posts in a sort of triangular shape around that tree about a meter apart. Each post with a with a sort of

apart. Each post with a with a sort of waist high sorry a chest high maybe 4 foot high um plastic netting around to try and prevent deer um and whatever

else from eating those trees and deer are a big problem for us. So, um, yeah, but they've been, so the Woodland Trust have been amazing and but other people, you know, you can do it privately, you can do it yourself, but um,

>> but I have a very small favor to ask. If

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the like button, on the subscribe button, and maybe leave us a message in the comment section. It actually makes a huge difference for me and it allows me to continue doing this work. So, thank

you so much in advance. I really

appreciate it. Thank you. So, the the Woodland Trust, um, who who are they and are they government funded? Because you

said that they provided all of this for free. So, I suppose someone must have

free. So, I suppose someone must have paid for that.

>> No, they're a uh charity, right? large

charity uh with the aim to protect ancient woodland um and also to um encourage basically encourage a lot of a lot more tree and um hedge planting um

around the UK and I don't know when it all began but they're they're a great organization and and um you know they're fully behind agroforestry schemes among

many other schemes um but they I feel now that agroforestry is becoming more sort of popular in the UK and um I don't know how how long that support's going to be there. So my advice to any other growers would you know if they want to

go down this route is is get on with it because um you know it's not cheap to to if you were to do it off your own back it's not it's not a cheap um excursion.

So um you know to have them behind me is fantastic. And the other great thing

fantastic. And the other great thing with them is you know we've had some tree losses over the last year or two with drought and whatever else and they've kindly um replaced any any lost

lost um trees um which is fantastic. It

is fantastic. So that they've paid for the trees, for the equipment around the trees.

>> Uh obviously then you you then have to deal with those trees and to Yeah. Yeah.

How much work is that?

>> Uh so the pruning we've we've uh actually we've done a bit of pruning but about a day's work. Um currently um so not too ownorous. I mean one of the things we're looking to do this year is

is probably to remulch a lot of the trees. Um and um again that's going to

trees. Um and um again that's going to take a bit of time. a few yeah a few days work for an individual I think but um how many trees do you have there's about

two and a half thousand in that in that field but you know the coposible trees we just leave them to their own devices for the time being um you know there will come a point obviously when we have

to cop them 5 10 years time but at the moment it's just uh leave them to it >> okay five 10 years time so you just let them grow then one day you're just going to come and just completely >> yeah and that's probably I'm sure that

could be done mechanically. I haven't

looked into it, but I'm sure there's some good maybe a good apart from a chain obviously a chainsaw, but something a bit more a bit quicker that might be available to to do that.

Something on the back of a tractor perhaps that can >> you'd imagine there there would be ways to do that fairly efficiently compared to pruning a tree carefully, choosing which uh which branches you want to keep

or not and so on, which takes almost like a specific expert on that in order to do. But this is, you know, the whole

to do. But this is, you know, the whole thing it's going to, you know, it's a long-term um

investment really objective. Um I think I'm hoping in time that um the trees where we where we allow our beef animals at the moment there's not much shade and

I've suddenly realized that actually shading is really really important for animals to because um yeah obviously in the summer it gets baking hot. We have

got some areas where there's some trees, but a lot of the area places that they go there isn't the shade. Um, and also for the chickens, you know, they like scratching around under under trees. And

I was listening to something recently, a guy was saying that he's seeing significant increase in productivity with his freerange hens when they're in a um wooded environment. It's more

natural for them. They feel they don't worry about predators or or anything from above and they just they just perform better. So um

perform better. So um >> it's really about thinking systemically right and you have all of these different parts of your system and they all complement each other and feed into each other and and the the whole becomes

much greater than the the sum of the parts.

>> Yeah, exactly. It's way more, you know, it's just more interesting as well. It

gives you more joy. I love, you know, I I I love seeing I I one of the guys on the farm who's kind of quite a keen sort of bird bird man, um when he joined us or a year in, he said, he said, "This

place," he said, "You've just got more more of the species like the farmland birds I see on other farms and you've also I'm seeing birds I've never seen before elsewhere here, which is just

very empowering. It's nice to hear."

very empowering. It's nice to hear."

>> Yeah.

>> So, I know we're doing right for wildlife. It's just

wildlife. It's just >> Do you also see and feel that the the differences?

>> Yeah, I mean, >> yeah, I do. I mean, I see um we definitely got more hairs than than than you know. Um do you get Yeah, you get

you know. Um do you get Yeah, you get hairs. Of course you do in Europe. Yeah.

hairs. Of course you do in Europe. Yeah.

Yeah. Um so I I see a lot more hairs um than I used to see. We're seeing more gray partridge around than we used to see. In fact, um, a guy who I do a bit

see. In fact, um, a guy who I do a bit of work with, um, he he was talking to his wife a couple of weeks ago, and he they were talking about gray part, which is quite an endangered, uh, species in the UK. You don't see many of them. And,

the UK. You don't see many of them. And,

and this guy said to his wife, he said he was coming up here a few days later, he said to his he said to his wife, I know where I'll see some English partridge and which are the gray partridge. and he arrived and we were

partridge. and he arrived and we were standing on the edge of a field chatting and this um you know group of maybe eight of them got up in front of us and he was just like it it gave him a lot of pleasure and me too.

>> Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. You you just said that you know farming this way brings you a lot of joy.

>> Yeah. Yeah, it does. I mean not only for wildlife um but also you know collaborations with um businesses in the past the way we used

to farm a lot of conventional farming is um you know we're growing feed they're growing feed goes into animal feed loaded on a lorry you don't know where

it goes it's gone and and and so on now we're just working with lots of businesses that um appreciate how we're farming and there's a much you know we're growing food not feed and We're

working with businesses who who appreciate us and and um and actually we're getting premiums for that. So um

we're yeah you know going down the wheat for instance we're getting significant premiums growing for wild farmed. I

think we've spoken about them a bit in the last day or two who are, you know, a relatively new business. Um,

>> started up a few years ago. Um, and

their remit is to to produce flour and uh grain that has had received no pesticides at all and limited amounts of synthetic fertilizer.

And also for as a grower, that's what we have have to adhere to. And also we have to have some livestock integration on their farms. they they they want mixed farms on board. Um

and um you know so there are various parameters we need to reach to to work with them but the premiums are significant compared to

the global whatever the national commodity the commodity prices that we're seeing um almost double um currently um >> the price at which you sell your

>> Yeah. So the wheat we're producing now

>> Yeah. So the wheat we're producing now with the the the price we agreed with wild farmed um last year is nearly double um the price that a conventional grower would get for his wheat from this

harvest. So, I mean massive and I look,

harvest. So, I mean massive and I look, I don't know how long that's going to remain the case, but >> it's fantastic at the moment. And

they're selling their the flour and bread to um artisan bakers and to a lot of um some pizza firms, Franco Manga, Ask Pizza, quite big chains of pizza um

restaurants. Um they're selling their

restaurants. Um they're selling their bread and flour in several supermarkets as well. Well, I mean, it's it's

as well. Well, I mean, it's it's building momentum and people are much more interested in they don't want they don't want they're interested in where their food comes from and they they don't want stuff covered in in chemicals

really. So, um yeah, it's great for

really. So, um yeah, it's great for them. Um and it's good for us.

them. Um and it's good for us.

>> Yes, you you've uh very conveniently opened up the next chapter of the conversation about, you know, who you sell your produce to and how that side of things work. And so, here you you started by talking about Wild Farm.

>> Yeah. uh they're fairly famous in the regenerative agriculture space especially here in the UK but um but for the people who have not heard about them yet when you just explained sort of very

quickly and summarized uh what they do but but uh could we just um how to say to zoom in and explain in more detail >> how this works for you as a farmer and and how they operate with you?

>> Yeah, so they was they were set up by three guys.

one of them, Andy is um is the farmer really amongst the three of them. And um

you know, he he was um he he runs an organic farm originally in France and then um he was in the music world before then, but um he had an organic farm in France and then lately and currently in

in the UK in the West. and um and the other two guys um they're all really driven about um you know producing healthy food and and how pretty screwed

up our our food system is and wanting to try and change that. Um so they set up the business they were looking for growers who were also um on board with

how they wanted to um uh accept food um and and grow food. So, um, yeah, they're now there's there's now around 100 maybe more growers who are on board with them.

Um, and we're all regenerative farmers, um, farming in similar ways, but all um, very empowered with what we're doing, and it's a really it's a wonderful,

uh, movement to be involved with. Um and

um going back to how we need to what their sort of stipulations are um at the moment, in fact, we're supplying them now with oats uh and

wheat, but they would also in if the nitrogen levels are correct in the mol in molting barley, they will also accept some molting barley. So, they're looking

to go into the um beer beer world. Um

but um yeah, we we you're not allowed to use any from the planting of the crop to the harvest of the crop, you're not allowed to use any pesticides at all in the growing of that crop. And you're

allowed to use um uh significantly smaller amounts of synthetic fertilizers to help grow that crop. So um

crop. So um I think this year the rate was around 120 kilos of synthetic fertilizer allowable in the crop per hectare. And

how does that compare to what a conventional >> half?

>> So it's half the the synthetic fertilizer.

>> And I think what they like like you to do is you're allowed to apply around 2/3 of that um in in split doses

in two do so say two lots of 40 kilos um and then beyond that it's sort of means tested. So what we're doing a lot of on

tested. So what we're doing a lot of on the farm and have done for a few years is sap analysis. So taking um tissue samples from the plant, sending them off

to a lab and getting a results back of what that plant is um is deficient in in terms of elements.

So and then and then and then what we do is we will get that information back within two or three days and then we'll act accordingly. And you know, having

act accordingly. And you know, having having gone down from very conventional, quite aggressive levels of synthetic fertilizer when we started doing SAPS um

three or four years ago, we we've never seen any of our plants deficient in nitrogen.

Um >> so when you get the return back there, the analysis from your >> Yeah, we're getting the analysis back.

The plant is the issues we get on our soils. this the plants um is is um is

soils. this the plants um is is um is deficient in magnesium, manganese sometimes, maybe silicon, um copper

occasionally, iron sometimes, but never nitrogen, which suggests to me that we don't need to apply the plant has adequate amounts of nitrogen in it. Um

>> so we we have a tendency to think that if it's not growing well enough, it's because it doesn't have enough nitrogen, but actually it's all of these other elements a lot of the time that are missing.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Exactly. Right. So, so the last sort of 20, 30, 40 kilos um is kind of based on with wild farm is based on what you receive back from your sap analysis. And

then um you know you we on our farm we tailor a sort of mix together to then use on the crop which might be um a 10

kilo amount of folure mixed with some sulfur. Um, so we we'll mix up a tank

sulfur. Um, so we we'll mix up a tank load of of so very very small amount of nitrogen but sulfur also is I forgot to mention sulfur but that's sometimes a limiting factor as well on these soils.

So a bit of a nitrogen sulfur mix that applies about 10 kilos of nitrogen and then we also add some fish hydraulicate which is an organic um sort of fertilizer. It contains all sorts of

fertilizer. It contains all sorts of things but it's a really good um organic product. maybe some manganesees, some

product. maybe some manganesees, some always some magnesium, um, and maybe some seaweed, some liquid seaweed, um, which again is just a good organic

fertilizer and soil improver. So, we

just make a mix of that and apply it in a folia form through the sprayer straight onto the crop.

>> And we'll do that a couple of times, two, maybe three times at the end of the the back end of the season to to grow the crop. And that's allowable. So,

the crop. And that's allowable. So,

we'll go up. We won't we don't actually often hit their their limits. So just a quick question is so you said that last third of fertil fertilizer that's allowed by wild farm but depending you

said it's depending on your results.

So do you have to actually communicate your sap analysis results with them as well to prove that?

>> Yeah. Yeah. So actually they they pay for the sap analysis >> um and currently the saps have to go off to uh the Netherlands.

>> There's no no lab in the UK.

>> It seems to be the only lab in Europe.

American, they send their stuff out. It

seems insane. But

>> it's really strange that you wouldn't see more labs popping up here.

>> I'm getting the impression that we need to watch this space cuz I suspect there'll be one here before too long.

But yeah, currently everything's sent over there. Um, and you know, there's a

over there. Um, and you know, there's a there's there's there's a cost to it and anyway, kindly they they they cover that cost. Um, and the information is sent to

cost. Um, and the information is sent to them and to us. Um, and actually, I mean, we use Ben and um, so I'll chat through with our regen consultant, Ben,

but otherwise for growers that don't have a Ben or someone that they can use to go through the results, um, there's Ed at Wild Fund or or probably one or two other people that can help, um,

analyze those results and probably tailor a mix to apply of trace elements to apply accordingly.

>> Okay.

>> So, they're very >> Yeah. The other thing I like is that

>> Yeah. The other thing I like is that they kind of, you know, we work together, you know, hands on very hands on. There's lots of farm growers

on. There's lots of farm growers meetings and lots of interaction with everyone and and WhatsApp groups and, you know, even more localized regional

um meetings amongst the wild farmers of East Anglia.

>> So you get to meet the the other farmers from your region.

>> Yeah.

>> And the lovely thing is everyone's doing something slightly different and it's just a great seat of learning. It's a

bit like groundsworld but on a very small level.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So you said no no no pesticides.

>> Yes. So no pesticides >> limited amount of fertilizer.

>> Yeah. They they like to see it they like to almost without exception I think they have to they want livestock integration on the farm. Um so I don't think it

necessarily has to be in the growing of that crop that you're growing for them but they want you to be uh they you know they're backing regenerative farms. So so mixed farming is cool and that that's

what they want to see.

They want to see cover crops everywhere.

Um, and you know, when you grow with them, you're kind of in it hopefully for a relatively long term.

And I'm, you know, we're moving around.

We're moving, obviously, we're not cropping the same field with a winter wheat growing for wild farm every year.

So, we're moving that those crops around all the time. So, it's a whole farm sort of approach um with livestock, with cover crops. Um and um you know the with

cover crops. Um and um you know the with how we're farming, we're not using pesticides um on the growing of crops anyway. So it sort of

it just it just works for us. Um and and and we're not um I I think they would they would struggle. They wouldn't want to work with a grower that says, you know, right, we'll grow that field of of wheat for wild farm, but on our other

fields of wheat, we're going to be very conventional and we're going to spray and all the rest of it. So

>> committed.

>> It's committed. Yeah, it's commitment.

It's a good commit. It's a commitment, but it's um uh on our >> but they they pay well. You said

>> they pay well. Uh and and their their clients are prepared to pay um a bit more for the the with the knowledge that that has come from um you know a good

source, a clean source.

>> Okay. And so you you said so you said that then you you get to sell the that wheat for example at a premium.

>> Yeah.

>> What does it look like?

>> The premium.

>> Yes.

Well, so the we so so the price that uh we were offered um for the 2025 harvest that's just happened um was offered to

us in the summer of 2024 and that price was £285 a ton and I think the wheat

price at the time on on the sort of um global market here was about um maybe 220 something like that. So it was a

nice markup. Um,

nice markup. Um, and where are we now? We've harvested

our crop. You know, the commodity prices have just generally slipped over the last few months. The fact is, you know, we've had a drought in Europe, haven't

we? Um, but for for us in the UK, it's

we? Um, but for for us in the UK, it's it's been mega, too. And, um, yields have been down. Uh, but actually commodity prices, it's a global thing.

It's not what happens in necessarily in Europe. And and they've just slipped

Europe. And and they've just slipped off. There's a massive global surplus of

off. There's a massive global surplus of grain anyway.

and prices have pretty much fallen off a cliff. I was offered £159 a ton a few

cliff. I was offered £159 a ton a few days ago for for wheat. Um but

thankfully we've still got that £285. So

the wheat that we've got in our shed um is being sold for £285.

>> Almost double.

>> Almost double.

>> Yeah. And they can afford to pay more because they they're creating an extra revenue from selling regenerative products because people are willing to pay more for those products. Yes.

>> Yeah. Exactly right. Yeah. So it's um yeah it's a good it's a good arrangement at the moment. And the other thing which I'll briefly touch on is that wild fond

have been pretty instrumental in trying to so so when subsidies have been were being phased out over these last few years. Um the government introduced

years. Um the government introduced something called the sustainable farming incentive here in the UK and it was a it was a way for farmers to um

draw in a an income a payment uh for farming in a better way. So there were lots of options about um that you for which if you if you adhere to them you

could obtain a a bit of a payment. Uh so

not using insecticides, not moving soils, no till, um companion cropping, um low input cereals, um for all the there were lots of other

different options you could and and there were payments available um for these if you were to hit to adhere to them um while subsidies were being phased out. And Wild Farm were great at

phased out. And Wild Farm were great at because low input cereals in particular is is one that very much suits the way we farm with them. Um, and they they've been working a lot with DERA, the

governing body, about, you know, how wild farmers are farming and and and what uh options we can access. Um, and and actually they've

access. Um, and and actually they've been a bit of our go-between because it's really hard to deal with like it probably is all over the world dealing with these government bodies and getting answers. They've got they've got a good

answers. They've got they've got a good in with some good people, some good ministers. So, that's been really really

ministers. So, that's been really really helpful. Um I won't go on too much with

helpful. Um I won't go on too much with the SFI as I call it the sustain as we call it the sustainable farming incentive but currently that whole system is on a hold which is a

unbelievable shame because it's been a it was a you know we spoke about getting good um advisers independent advisers to help change your farming system but that

SFI was a great leg up for people that wanted to change but were scared to to to to do it so they could actually draw

a payment for farming in a better way.

Um, to mitigate perceived risk of of change. Um, and you know, I I don't know

change. Um, and you know, I I don't know what's what the future looks like, but it's been on hold for about a year now.

They're not accepting any new entrance to it. It's a three-year term. We've

to it. It's a three-year term. We've

still got a couple of years left on our SFI scheme, so we're still >> receiving payments for that. But

>> going forward, the it's pretty uncertain. But um anyway, I'm very

uncertain. But um anyway, I'm very thankful for >> Yeah, it it is crazy. It is completely irrational. We I mean,

irrational. We I mean, >> we've spoken a lot in the last few days about the the hidden cost of food, you know, and the massive hidden cost of food. We know we have numbers, lots of

food. We know we have numbers, lots of studies today showing that, you know, for every a pound that a person pays at the supermarket, there's between one and three pounds of hidden cost in in

healthcare, in environmental damage, in in plenty of things. Yeah. And that you know the well we came to the conclusion that actually spending a bit of that

that money that public budget >> uh into incentivizing farmers to to farm with nature.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh is actually an amazing investment because it costs very little compared to how much it you gain as a society as a government with your own your budget.

Right. So it just feels crazy that you would you would go in the right direction do something that's that's clearly helping and working and then just take it away. I totally agree. I

mean, I you know, food's food's always been really cheap in the UK and and and you know, really farmers have have got their income from a subsidy. I

don't know how it is in Europe, but that's been often a farmer's income. So,

now that's gone. Um either food has got to become way more expensive, but I'm not sure the supermarkets are going to kind of allow that. I don't know how that's going to work, but um or or they've got all farmers have got to be

um or got to derive an income somewhere.

So, it's got to be via um a sustainable farming incentive type scheme.

So, I can't see food prices going up massively, unfortunately, uh for a long time. It's going to be very gradual. Um

time. It's going to be very gradual. Um

and by that time, if there's no SFI or or equivalent, most farmers are going to be out of business.

Um that's why it would make so much sense for governments to you know open their eyes to the fact that there are or currently spending a lot of money >> trying to fix the mess right that they

that we're creating with these uh you know extractive intensive conventional systems >> and that's just taken away some of that you know that that budget and just reinjecting it where it really matters and where it makes a huge difference

would be such a >> such a obviously good thing to do >> it would but as we said yesterday you know governments They're changing all the time and um well, you know, every

every few years and and and no one seems to be in charge for long enough to kind of make really good decisions. Um

>> having a long-term vision.

>> Yeah. Having a long-term vision. So, we

flip between different ministers. Um

half of them don't seem to know a huge amount about agriculture. They've come

from foreign policy, whatever it might be, but they're politicians, but they're not necessarily experts in um in our space. And um yeah, so it's a bit like a

space. And um yeah, so it's a bit like a headless chicken, I think, unfortunately.

>> Yeah, indeed. So yeah, for for a big part of what you grow, then you have this uh collaboration with Wild Farm.

>> Yeah, we have that. So we have the collaboration with Wild Farms. We've got um a collaboration uh with a business called Hodma, who are a suffuk based um pulse business, beans,

peas um and so on. And we've been working with them for a few years. I I

used to go to primary school at from the age of like five with this guy with the founder Josiah. He's a lovely guy and um

founder Josiah. He's a lovely guy and um uh you know he's got great intentions and he's a really good man in this space and I so I started um growing with him

growing for him um about four years ago I think beans maybe initially and then we went into carps and via Josiah we started working also with the bold bean company and also

Holland and Barrett who he supplies with our carps but the the bulb bean uh you know they're they're Um they're another

really positive um fast growing business that was set up by Amelia who who I get on well with and was were supplying them with with carins that are sold um I think via a cardo which is sort of um a

delivery type business. They were in Waitros. I'm not sure whether they're

Waitros. I'm not sure whether they're still in in that space but they're the carin peas are a very high I think the highest protein um pulse um in in the market and they're delicious to eat. So,

um >> I tried them I tried them yesterday evening in a you know in a in a salad I was making here and they're absolutely delicious. I'm I'm a big fan of uh of

delicious. I'm I'm a big fan of uh of beans and uh and in general >> and and eat them a lot and actually this is some of the best ones I've ever tried.

>> Thank you. Honestly, I think um I mean the carins were grown were eaten a lot in the UK I think in the 1800s and then they kind of went out of fashion out of fashion as people got wealthier and

deemed um beans and peas to be a bit um I don't know sort of inferior product.

Um so they they've sort of been phased out and then um but they're still eating a bit in in parts of the UK. Um but um then arrived Josiah a lot of years ago

with a bit of a mission to kind of get this, you know, build this market cuz they're such a wonderful healthy um source of protein and and um yeah, so it's been really fun working with those

guys and and um and and I just love that. It's just lovely working with

that. It's just lovely working with other people that want to approve of what appreciate how we do things and um you know want to do good things in the

food and farming space really. So um we work with so we work with those guys and on a much kind of lower level and very local level we also work with a a

wonderful local bakery called Worers and um we started I think they came on one of our farm walks and then I spoke to the sort of patriarch of that business and he said look we'd love to take some

of your wheat pesticidefree wheat for milling and use it in one of our loaves.

So they've now producing a loaf called the Net Wild and Net is our village.

They call it they call it the Nest Wild and it's a pesticidefree um they mill they mill the wheat and produce their own flour. Then it's grown with that

own flour. Then it's grown with that that flour. Um and there's a story you

that flour. Um and there's a story you go into their shop in Berry St. Edmonds

and and um and and more locally u and they've they've they've got sort of signs up and with us and it's it's just a nice story and then they came around um when when that all started I had all their employees maybe 20 or 30 of them

came around and we did a farm walk and we we'd only recently taken um ownership of the egg mobile and the and the hens out on the field and they we were looking at them and talking about them

and the benefits for soil health and whatnot of that and and and we got talking about the eggs and what I was going to do with the eggs and they said, "Well, look, we need a ton of eggs each

week." Um, so and we do have a supplier

week." Um, so and we do have a supplier already, but we'd love to take some of yours as well. So, we work with them. We

supply them with some eggs for their baking. So, it's just Yeah, it's lovely.

baking. So, it's just Yeah, it's lovely.

I just I I just enjoy working with people rather than sticking it all on a lorry and waving it goodbye and and never seeing it again. So,

>> better for the profit and better for the soul as well.

>> Yeah. must be so much more gratifying.

>> Yeah.

>> That you're working hard growing food, but you can see the final products. In

the case of the the peas, the calling peas, it's a beautiful, >> you know, product that's that's well marketed and everything that's delicious, but you can actually enjoy yourself in your own kitchen.

>> Exactly.

>> And or the the wild farm products that are also in the shop or in this in this case, the local bread. At least what you produce you can see the results of. You

can see that this is great quality.

>> We kind of proud of what we do. I mean I think in the years from 2003 to 2020 I don't think we had we we didn't have any farm tours. We didn't host any

events on the farm. Like I just I don't think I was like m you know the way we were farming reaching for the can every can of chemical you pick up has got warnings toxic to something this and that. I just wasn't proud of anything we

that. I just wasn't proud of anything we were doing on the farm. But since we've changed, you know, we've had we probably host

maybe four events a year. We have um a few farm walks a year. We school tours.

I write in a couple of parish magazine, local parish magazines. Um, it's just I'm absolutely so proud of what we do and I love I love showing people around

and the and and locally, you know, we've we've it's a bit like ground the sort of rise in popularity of Groundsworld, the regen show that I met you at a couple of years ago, which has gone from sort of

900 people in 2018 or so when it started to whatever it is now 12 15,000.

So too with our local farm farm walk just for locals here that may may or may not have any um real um knowledge of of the food and farming business but or industry but

they they just like what we're doing.

And when we started a few years ago maybe 10 people turned up. Last year we had 90 or 100. You know it's just it's fantastic. And as I said to you with

fantastic. And as I said to you with that rocket hive that beehive we've got up there. We had a lady come, this

up there. We had a lady come, this lovely local girl came around and just loves what we're doing and wanted to buy something for the farm. She wanted to buy a gift for the farm and so she bought us this wild beehive which is

just so kind and so it's really cool.

You showed me this this morning. It's

sort of like structure on on some big wooden legs and it's like a tripod >> tree trunk kind of thing and that was called hollowed inside and it's just it's been kind of

>> uh built into this uh this uh what is it? Beehive for

it? Beehive for >> Yeah, it's a beehive. It's a wild for wild bees ideally. Um but you know like everywhere and globally,

you know, space for lots of species is reducing all the time. Um, so it's just creating a nice um good environment for those for the wild bees that um don't

have anywhere to go these days with um you know with um development and god knows what. So

knows what. So >> yeah, you seem very passionate and very excited about what you're doing and generally speaking quite quite happy. I

mean this feeling I'm getting from you.

>> Yeah.

>> Um >> total second wind in farming. Total

second wind. Yeah. Just love it.

>> Yeah. And how has that you know evolved since the days where you were sort of farming more conventionally? Do you feel like this this whole transition has really changed your personal mental

health and well-being in general?

>> Yes, I would. I think I'm a I think I'm a happier person. I I I feel like also we have a better work life balance. Like initially when you

life balance. Like initially when you change you you I I certainly in the old system we were a lot busier, way busier with more more tractor time. Uh rush

rush rush kind of thing. Busy. I I busy I think I was a bit of a busy fool. You

know, we rushing around without you need to sometimes take a step back and see and assess.

>> And that's probably what got me into a bit of a pickle when I had my accident if I'm honest. Um rushing. Um so now I think we're we're much more okay. It's

been it's it's taken a while um to get everyone totally on board with the with the the way we're farming, but we we the guys are spending less time on the tractors. We're doing probably a bit

tractors. We're doing probably a bit more management time uh but more crop walking, more research and so on. But

that I I enjoy all of that a lot more, but also a lot more time spent with family and friends. And I think that's great for me personally, but also for

the two guys that work for us, I guess.

I mean, we try and look after them. I

think we look after them pretty well financially and uh and so on, but I you know they could probably go to a way bigger farm and work round the clock and earn more

money, but they won't see their family.

And I think they like the balance.

>> And it's so important. You know, we talk about mental health. It's a big thing these days. Uh and um and and

these days. Uh and um and and particularly with farming, a lot of suicides, a lot of time spent alone. The

way we're farming now, there's way less time spent alone. The two guys work together on most things. Um, you know, there's not they're not sent to one's over there on that field and one's over there. Most of the stuff they're doing

there. Most of the stuff they're doing they're doing together and um or with me and it's just it's more of a collaboration between us. We're just and and I feel from my point of view it's not

we're all learning. We're all still learning. It's a you know it's a gradual

learning. It's a you know it's a gradual thing. um I want them on board with me

thing. um I want them on board with me as much as possible and so hence we go to we're all learning to we go to grounds well they'll have a couple of days off the farm go there they'll go to whatever talks they want to go to and

we're just we're just yeah it's it's and they come with Ben and it's just and I and I honestly think if they left this farm they would not go back to a

conventional business like they're seeing the fruits of their labors whether it's worm the amount of worms in the soil wildlife um they they come to some of the wildfire meeting, you know,

they're they're just more way more bought into it. And I just don't think they go back to that sort of conventional system even if the money was better. That's fantastic. Um, most

was better. That's fantastic. Um, most

of the the listeners of this podcast will know by now that the the official partner of the the Deep Seed podcast is Soil Capital and I know that you're um enrolled in the the Soul Capital program. Is that right? Yes, that's

program. Is that right? Yes, that's

right.

>> Quite recently though.

>> Yeah, quite recently. Um we signed up with them about a year ago and um we're not at the stage yet where

we could look to maybe sell some carbon credits. Um but we might be in probably

credits. Um but we might be in probably in the middle of next year hopefully.

>> So yeah, but maybe too early to to speak about the benefits to your you know to your farm and to your balance sheet, but but maybe we could talk about the process itself. Um because uh a big

process itself. Um because uh a big worry sometimes you have a lot of administration work to do and so what kind of >> So the process so the the process for us

was to um to put in data from the current year um and previous years historical data uh with what we've done on the fields in

terms of um uh tillage uh pesticides fertilizers is um harvesting, removal of

straw, whatever. Um covercropping, a

straw, whatever. Um covercropping, a real mix. So they wanted the history of

real mix. So they wanted the history of the fields and that can be quite exhaustive. Um I mean we keep data on on

exhaustive. Um I mean we keep data on on um farm software anyway. Um so we've got data back for the last 15 plus years. So

we've got that to hand. But um the great thing with soil capital was that I was um I was liazing with one of the girls there and she we went through it together and actually what could have

been for a non quite a non- techy man like me um a good couple of days of messing about and um lots of phone calls

to the office. Um it turned out to be you know half to twothirds of a day uh with her going through it and putting the data in. Um, so we did that and I've

now in a position to input my 2025 harvest data, which I'll do with her through via a Zoom call probably quite soon. And then I I believe as I

soon. And then I I believe as I understand it, perhaps at the middle of next year, we might in a position be in a position to to sell some carbon credits. And I know carbon seems to be

credits. And I know carbon seems to be this is quite a debatable topic. And I I don't really know enough about it, but um to to comment too much about it, but

I just feel that the way we're farming, you know, we're sequestering carbon and why not look to derive a bit of an income from from the way we're farming.

A bit like the SFI, you know, farming's, you know, on its knees um globally. Well, certainly with in Europe

globally. Well, certainly with in Europe by the sound of it. Um and so, um yeah, any income's better than nothing. So um

yeah, we'll see how this I don't know how much we could potentially derive, but I it's it's certainly something to worth looking at. I would advise for any regen grower.

>> Amazing. Yes. Well, for the question of, you know, the carbon market and and the So Capital's vision on this, we we just did recently an amazing episode with Andrew, the head of impact there. So if

anyone's interested in in learning more about this, that definitely go back and listen to this this episode. Yeah,

>> it was great.

>> One last question about them, though.

It's like what what made you decide to join the program? What appealed to you?

>> Uh so I I had looked at carbon with another business um uh probably about 3 years ago and it kind of didn't really yield anything. Um

I'd spent quite a bit of time putting data in and and then it turned out that there were weren't any buyers for the credits. Um we did start speaking to a vertical farming business

but it just sort of didn't really go anywhere. Um and then I spoke to another

anywhere. Um and then I spoke to another another business in the UK. Um and

actually it was it was a different sort of system. It was actually coming to

of system. It was actually coming to this this guy was was going to send people to the farm to actually do some core samples, go around the farm, take some soil samples and and assess carbon

levels in the soil and then return a year or two years later and take go to the same spot and take more core samples and see. And so you had a quantifiable

and see. And so you had a quantifiable um amount of carbon to potentially sell but and those carbon credits as I understand it are worth a lot more. So

potentially the income we could derive would be greater but um the cost of that um initial survey initial sampling and then again was was was significant like

we just didn't have the money to do that um and you know with soul capital I've had so so which led me to soul capital basically um I've got friends that that

sort of sell carbon through them and some of their advisers who I respect um think they're the best or one of the best to work

with. So, um I yeah, I got in touch with

with. So, um I yeah, I got in touch with them and they're um yeah, and and and currently um yeah, costs have been uh zero as far as I can recall. Maybe an

initial small cost. I can't remember, but but very low anyway. So, um uh so so going back to the previous guy with the source on I probably potentially could have earned more money, but actually um

I just didn't have the the the the funds to to to begin that journey. So, I'm

very happy with Soul Capital.

>> Um, we're currently traveling England for a few days, recording nine episodes in 9 days. And, um, I thought it'd be kind of fun to ask every guest to come up with a question for the following

one. Um, and yesterday we were at the

one. Um, and yesterday we were at the University of East Anglia, if I'm not mistaken, in Norwich, talking to Professor Nitia Rao. And uh the question

she had for you was um well people like her in universities doing studies especially on farming and food. If you

could ask them to focus on something on studying something that you find interesting or that would be relevant for you what would you ask them to study?

Good question. Um

for me I'm quite interested in in sort of uh farmed chemicals that we're seeing in foods. Um, and I don't know a lot

in foods. Um, and I don't know a lot about it, but a couple of years ago, there was a study done in the States, and they found that um, uh, they found

traces of a a product called Clomacquat in breakfast cereals. Clomicquat is a plant growth regulator. It's or straw

stiffener widely used in cereal crops all over the world. It's very cheap.

And they've found that clomacquat is a uh affects um reproductive organs in a in a bad way. Um obviously these are minute levels um in breakfast cereals,

but it I just thought that's really that's not good news um at all. And uh

and I would I'd love more research to be done in sort of in that space. So what

you know in conventional growing there's a lot of chemicals used. um how much of that actually ends up on on the grain or the bean or the pee or whatever it is and

and and what is that doing to us? What

is that doing to to to our health? Um

>> yeah, each you know each specific sort of um chemical >> that's that's super super important. I

think it goes back to the this question about the true cost of food, right? So

here like the >> the impact on human health basically from from conventional agriculture because we could find out more about that >> and have a more clear and information

about >> well what it does to us to our health and how much it cost us to also >> deal with those those health issues then maybe would have this extra also

incentive to >> get off these chemicals and to reward farmers who farm in harmony with nature in a way that's healthy for for Exactly.

And and the amounts I mean the amounts are so tiny, aren't they? That that's

probably why the research hasn't really been done. I mean, people speak about

been done. I mean, people speak about protein bars on a slight slight tangent and how some of the stuff that goes into those bars is is >> is really not, you know, causes heart disease and blah blah blah and cancer

and all this stuff at certain levels, but because it's they're such tiny levels, >> no no research is really done and and these products just escape scrutiny. Um,

so I'd love to know a bit more about, you know, what we're doing as farmers um that we're seeing on our on our food stuff. So send that her way, please.

stuff. So send that her way, please.

>> Yes, I will. I will. And then so the second part of this uh this uh question, well, not question, but this uh this idea of sharing questions between guests

is that we are visiting uh another farmer tomorrow called David Whitley.

>> Yep.

>> Um not too far from here, about an hour northwest in in Cambridge. Um, is there any questions that uh you would like you would like us to ask him? Yes.

>> Um, I suppose >> it's a bit of a general question and no one really knows the answer, but um, you know, there's an incredible sort of malaise in agriculture. There's been

surveys done recently that that um, suggest that something like 60% of farmers u surveyed don't think

they'll be farming in 10 years time. um

80% don't think it'll be a generational thing i.e. you know farms will be sold

thing i.e. you know farms will be sold whatever. Um

whatever. Um there seems to be such yeah such a sort of negativity about everything and it's diff it's difficult

to get out of this sort of toer of of of of how difficult things are and that's to be fair it's for a lot of industries at the moment. We're not farmers.

Agriculture isn't just the only one, but I'd love to know his what his sort of vision is for the UK farming in 10 years

time. What are we going to see? bloody

time. What are we going to see? bloody

great farms uh run by large sort of corporations some somehow benefiting from economies of scale and still continuing to produce pretty crap food

or are we going to be looking at more regenerative polices and more regenerative farming hopefully that's the case and more more

interaction which I think he does but like I do with with good businesses that that appreciate how you farm um more solar what you know how is it going to look um I'd love to know his view on

that and obviously for me a big thing is wildlife and I I >> you know we're the most wildlife depleted country in Europe um which is

which is just a horrendous shame and and you know at least on our farm I feel like we're we're we're making positive inroads into improving that situation but it's we're just a we're just a small

piece in a large jig jigsaw and this sort of stuff needs to be done landscape scale. So, you know, just his

landscape scale. So, you know, just his his idea of how things are going to evolve. It's just a it's a bit very

evolve. It's just a it's a bit very broad question, but I'd love his his opinion.

>> Awesome. Great. Thank you so much. We're

going to close this conversation here, but thank you so much, James. Uh first

of all, for like hosting us here in your farm for the last couple of days. It's

been really a pleasure to to spend some time with you. Uh I learned so much. And

then thank you also for taking the time today and for sharing your experience, your journey, your knowledge with the listeners of the Deep Seed Podcast.

Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been a pleasure to have you here um from two years ago at Groundsworth. Just that

lovely moment of meeting and and sharing ideas and talking and and both finding a as you do at that show, a love of um making things better in the food and

farming sector. Um, it's been great to

farming sector. Um, it's been great to have you both here and um and uh hopefully see you at groundsell in uh July.

>> I hope so. Yes.

>> Yeah. Thank you for take care. Bye.