How This Non-Technical Founder Mastered Agentic Engineering in 50 Minutes | Matt Van Horn

I certainly don't read any code. I don't

even know how to read any code.

I thought you were actually an engineer.

I am not an engineer. I don't know what you call me. Biggest hack like if you do one thing is my favorite tool for building anything is compound engineering. Somehow I'm able to ship

engineering. Somehow I'm able to ship things of value which is crazy and weird and still blowing my mind. What if

anyone could print their own CLI about anything? It found all the secret APIs

anything? It found all the secret APIs by sniffing and it worked.

Hey everyone, my guest today is Matt, who is arguably one of the best and most prolific AI builders that I know. And

today he's going to walk us through his complete agentic AI, well, I guess agentic engineering system that went viral on X. And I think uh, you know, from what I've seen from Matt, I think this interview is going to blow your mind. So, welcome, Matt.

mind. So, welcome, Matt.

Thank you. Excited to be here.

Let's talk about your like you posted this article, right, that had like I think 20 tips or something about building with AI agents. Do you want to share an overview of it?

Sure. Yeah, I'll I'll share the screen you made.

All right.

I didn't make the slide. You did. This

is Matt's antic system. I think you should present this, Peter, since you made the No, no. I I I made this based on your

No, no. I I I made this based on your article. So, um I mean there there's a

article. So, um I mean there there's a lot of tips on here. A lot of tips on here, but like what are some high level themes, you know, like maybe one high level theme like like you told me is like you don't actually read you don't actually read the plans. What what are some high level themes?

Yeah, sure. So I think the the biggest hack

sure. So I think the the biggest hack like if you do one one thing is the my my favorite tool for building anything

is is compound engineering and I'm it does compound engineering does a lot of things every has done an incredible job's done an incredible job uh Karen

and but the the killer feature is CE plan and CE work and what that does is if I ever have an idea like I can give an example of an idea I had this morning

but uh if I ever have an idea I always just start with slash c plan here's my idea I'm usually using voice and what it's going to do is it's going

to write a plan file and that that's coming up with the execution plans for the agent and the reason this matters versus just talking straight to claude

or to codeex is agents have a propensity to be lazy like they want to make you as happy as possible as fast as possible with as few

tokens spent as possible. And by writing down a stepbystep systematic plan, it sets itself up so it's not lazy. And so

for anything, I always say C plan, C work, C plan, C work. And back in the day, and by back in the day, I mean like two months ago, I used to always read

the plans. my my last I've only written

the plans. my my last I've only written two of these agentic engineering articles and the the last one said oh we'll open the plan in your editor don't look at the code obviously but you

should still look at the plan and in the last two months I found there's no reason to look at the plan and that I can just ask questions to to the agents I'll give an example of something I'm

working on this morning so I I I launched a product I think this week yeah I guess this week on Monday called agent cookie which allows your so if you

have a main Mac laptop that you're using and a Mac Mini that you use for either Hermes or OpenClaw the cookies are out

of sync and so you're logged out all the time and so I built something over tail scale that makes your cookies perfectly in sync and so this morning I was using

another product of mine that I built with Trevan called the printing press and it often it's creating CLI out of thing and so I'm trying to create a Task Rabbit CLI right now. I can get into that in a second why that's interesting.

It's a it's a human goat CLI, but that's a side thing. And often on my own machine, my agent is logged out. And so

I said this morning, C plan, take a look at the printing press and take a look at agent cookie to unrelated projects of mine

and figure out what printing press uses for HAR sniffing when creating a new CLI or agent skill and how agent cookie

currently works and figure out how all my agents locally. So that's forcell's Asian browser. That's browser use.

Asian browser. That's browser use.

That's uh I think playright how they are always logged into everything. And then

it's like okay I made a plan and then I didn't load the plan because you should never look at the plan because you got to move fast. You got to move fast. But

I had one question. I had one question for my agent this morning. I said you're just modifying agent cookie right? you

don't have to like make a change to Verscell's Asian browser or to Playright or to browser use and it's like nope just Asian cookies will magically work just with Asian cookie like great all

right see you work let's go build and I I think it built it by the way I think it finished a few minutes ago I haven't looked at it yet can you actually like go to your terminal and like show me what the plan looks like I said you're not supposed to look at

the plan but sure let's let's see it I'm just trying to understand the difference between C plan and uh just like regular plan mode like what's so great about CP plan.

Let's see what what happened here. So I

said, "Zeplan, can you dig into the printing press and how the agents use agent browser browsers for hard sniffing? Then dig into the agent cookie

sniffing? Then dig into the agent cookie works and how the sync logged in. Are

you sure you're logged in?" Office says I'm not. How can we fix that with agent

I'm not. How can we fix that with agent cookie? And then I said, "No, sorry, I

cookie? And then I said, "No, sorry, I didn't mean that. Is it only agent cookie?" And it's like, "Yes, I'm only

cookie?" And it's like, "Yes, I'm only modifying a great go." So that was like my one question without ever looking at this plan. Obviously, I could have read

this plan. Obviously, I could have read this plan and maybe that would have created some value, but not really because I just had one question. If I

was submitting a bunch of PRs to agent browser and playright and modifying their code bases versus just making a PR to agent cookie.

Yeah. So I guess to summarize like the difference between and I interviewed Kieran too the difference between C plan just like asking the agent to plan is like it does a ton of re research on your codebase and online and also like

writes a pretty comprehensive plan right like it goes into a lot more detail you know so I don't even know because I don't read them is is the honest answer but but the results are good and and my

products often work and they don't break right so like for me it's just about the iteration cycle it's like okay I asked you to make a and you made a thing and then it's like,

okay, does the thing work? Is it any good? And if it does, great. Thank you.

good? And if it does, great. Thank you.

Thank you, Kieran. Thank you, combat engineering. But I think the the big

engineering. But I think the the big thing is I I don't have to worry about it because I've used it so much that I'm able to just trust it and I know what types of questions lead to success and failure.

Got it. So, so you do this for like pretty much every new feature you want to build and then you see build and then do you read the code like the PRs and stuff or do you kind of uh is there like a command for that too like a skill?

So, I certainly don't read any code. I I

don't even know how to read any code. I

I haven't written any type of code since high school and that was probably HTML.

I don't even think CSS was was that big when I was in high school and maybe some Apple script language type stuff. Uh but

that that that would that's my engineering skill set. So certainly to do that. Uh and then if I PR if I'm

do that. Uh and then if I PR if I'm submitting an external PR then I I like to glance at it obviously and and hit submit and make sure I'm saying things

that are normal.

That that that's actually uh okay. Maybe

I should have done more research. Okay.

I I I thought you were actually an engineer, but it sounds like you actually you're a engineer. Not not a I am not an engineer. I don't know what you call me. I'm I I've called myself a

nerd my whole life. Like I remember when I got my first job at at DIG in 2007 and I been a nerd my whole life. Like

everyone would call me to like fix their Wi-Fi. Like I used to camp out for Mac

Wi-Fi. Like I used to camp out for Mac World to see Steve Jobs speak when I was a kid. And and then I arrived in San

a kid. And and then I arrived in San Francisco in 2007 and I was like, "I'm one of you. You're my people. Yeah, I'm

so excited." And then they're like, "Do you have a CS degree? Are you an engineer?" I'm like, "No, I'm just a

engineer?" I'm like, "No, I'm just a nerd like you." they're like m not so much. And so I I've always felt this um

much. And so I I've always felt this um I don't know what the word is um like there was always a negative signal. It's

like oh Matt doesn't know. He doesn't

understand. And again this this I still don't try and pretend like I know. I

literally say I don't read the plan. I

don't know what's happening. and um and and so I obviously respect engineering and real real engineers and I am not under any circumstance that but somehow

I'm able to ship things of value which is crazy and weird and still blowing my mind. This episode is brought to you by

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Now back to our episode. And it pretty much started uh like these tools started becoming good enough would say last year like late last year or this is like a pretty recent phenomenon right that you

can just like ship other stuff.

November 24th Opus 45 shipped and a few weeks later the latest version of codec shipped. So I call it BC AC before

shipped. So I call it BC AC before Claude and Codex after but it was that Thanksgiving last year where it stopped

being a toy. Like I I'd been playing and building and was an early adopter of of uh cursor when it first came out and but I I couldn't build anything of value. It

was like oh look I made a weather app that kind of works and th those sorts of things. are like look I was able to

things. are like look I was able to build a small app where I can ask a question to chat GBT or to claude like that was like my like and then I would spend like 3 days

trying to get Google Oath to work and it didn't and but there was that shift that BCAC Thanksgiving last year where it stopped

being a toy and started being real.

That that's amazing dude. That's

amazing. and and um well I think one of the most exciting things that you shipped is uh the printing press. So do

you want to tell us what it's all about?

Sure.

And maybe you can talk about like what's so special about CLI versus like MCP or like some of these other integrations?

So this is uh printing press.dev. So I

so how this started was it was Sunday morning and I said c planned I want to start a programming language

from scratch for agents and my agent was like sure let's get right on that that's such a good idea I'm going to make an intensive plan for how we're going to build the best programming lang you know agents are are

always over overeager to please and after kind of did its research and came back and told me about the other uh agent programming languages like I think there's one called MOG. Uh it it was

pretty much like TLDDR this is a terrible idea. You should not do this

terrible idea. You should not do this under any circumstance. There is no value to this. And uh and I was like dang it but but agents and CLIs and

agent efficiency like there has to be something here. Like what Peter

something here. Like what Peter Steinberg is doing is incredible with OpenClaw and all the CLIs he's making like what could be something interesting that we we could make today on Sunday

and like ship in a day or so. And

somehow that jamming back and forth C plan C work ended up inventing this crazy I I I wish I I need to find the original plans cuz I'm curious like what exactly was said. This is all a memory

but it's all written down somewhere.

There's a there's a plan I haven't read somewhere that that was the printing press original plan and my my original

prompt but the the basic gist of where we ended up was uh I started studying Peter Steinberger

is whenever his agent so his open claw would have a problem using a service so like Google apps like Google sheets,

Google Docs, Gmail he would create a CLI for himself. And so Gog Gogg CLI is made

for himself. And so Gog Gogg CLI is made by Peter and um and then he would find some frustrating with something with

something else like um on Discord there was no good CLI. There was an API but there wasn't a good CLI. And so he's like, I'm going to make disc crawl. And

he would do this. And he would do this for himself selfishly, but because Peter is is incredible and uh lives in this open source for for the greater good of people. So he builds something for

people. So he builds something for himself and then he ships it open source to the world. And so I had my agent start studying his patterns and there were two very very interesting. So, so

first sorry another thing is I ran last 30 days on Google's official CLI versus Peter's CLI and I said okay which which

one should I use I should use Google's it came out like 3 months after they got to learn from Peter's and last 30 days says you should use Peters under all circumstances it is much better than

Google's and so like what why how is this possible Google got to look at Peters and so I dug in and there's there's a lot of things he's done but There there were kind of two that really

stuck out for me. So one everything that Peter does he thinks of the power user.

So he's mindful of what is someone that is a power user going to do u with this like imagine an agent is a power user trying beating up something all the time. What are they going to do? And the

time. What are they going to do? And the

second thing he does is about speed and token efficiency. And so one of the

token efficiency. And so one of the things that pretty much all of Peter's CLI do is it downloads everything and creates an SQL light database. So for

example, let's go with Discord. So

OpenClaw has a Discord. There's a lot of activity there. And so Peter would be

activity there. And so Peter would be like, hey, what's the top feature request? If he just like asked the U

request? If he just like asked the U Discord API, hey, what's the top feature request that people posted in my Discord lately? It'd be like, okay, well, let me

lately? It'd be like, okay, well, let me see what's been written down. Me

download all the messages from today.

download message 892, 893, 894. Okay,

I've looked at these and I've analyzed them. But if he's already downloaded and

them. But if he's already downloaded and has an SQLite database of everything that's ever posted in his Discord because it's just built into his CLI, that's brilliant. Like, oh my goodness,

that's brilliant. Like, oh my goodness, literally his open claw, however he hosts it, has everything ever written Discord. And that's that's fascinating.

Discord. And that's that's fascinating.

And so for the printing press, the idea was what if anyone could print their own

CLI about anything and it kind of does does four things at its core. So

um one it does what what Peter does. So

it creates an SQL light database and it says who is the power user of this product. And so we actually have it it

product. And so we actually have it it creates personas. Trevan did this where

creates personas. Trevan did this where it actually says so if you were if you were to print the the Discord CLI using the printing press it would say let's

create a few different personas of who would be a power user of this and it's like power user one meet Jim Jim owns two Discords and runs a big open- source

project and he is overwhelmed what features would Jim want and then it literally like defines that and it uses that as a data point and so that's one of the things it does. The second thing

it does is it looks for official CLIs or APIs that exist already and ingest those. The third thing that

it does is it goes and it does a hard sniff to look for secret APIs. So I'll

give an example. Um so the um Google flights and kayak direct they do not have an official API but if you do a

hard sniff and click around you can find all the secret APIs that exist and so that's how the flight goat was invented.

So the flight goat, you can just say PP flight goat. So it's a skill. So it's a

flight goat. So it's a skill. So it's a skill for Hermes or Open Claw or for Claude Code. Uh I want to see Seattle

Claude Code. Uh I want to see Seattle long haul non-stop flights December 24th through January 1st for passengers cheapest first. And what it does first

cheapest first. And what it does first is it goes kayak direct secret APIs and looks for all the non-stop flights over 8 hours from Seattle. Then it takes that

and because it and goes into the secret Google flights um API and then runs it and then in one command you're able to get a result like this is a real result.

So London is the cheapest for Christmas to New Year's at 1,200 per passenger then Amsterdam then Tokyo then Paris and

it did this within one command which is bananas. And secret API is basically

bananas. And secret API is basically like, you know, if I go to kayak.com, I start browsing around, there's like a bunch of APIs that it calls through the browser, right? You just found out what

browser, right? You just found out what that is.

Exactly. Yep. And that that's the the feature I was working on earlier today was to make sure that the cookies are synced so you're always logged in when doing a hard sniff when printing something with the the printing press.

And so so so those that's the the third thing we And the fourth thing we do is we go on GitHub and we look for community projects, people that have already been hacking and finding these

secret APIs and building off of them. So

like we found this really cool project.

Um it was a Python library for Domino's pizza ordering. And apparently

pizza ordering. And apparently Domino's.com hadn't changed any of their order pizza endpoints in like 10 years.

And this someone built a python a pre-LM Python library to order by a Python script Domino's Pizza and it had I don't know I I don't know the numbers but a couple

hundred stars so it's not like a major project but but it worked and it was really cool and so we're able to learn from all the community projects which gives signal of what people want to do but it also gives signal of where the

APIs exist. And what's funny is

APIs exist. And what's funny is literally the night before we launched the printing press, Domino's changed their APIs. Literally the night before

their APIs. Literally the night before Trevan tried to order a pizza. He's

like, "It's not working." And so he reprinted it and we shipped it. And they

changed it for the first time in 10 years the night before launch. But now

you can order pizza within the printing press.

He he reprinted as in like he found this secret API. So Domino, you use this.

secret API. So Domino, you use this.

He just you literally go into cloud code and you type printing press here. I can

Yeah. Maybe you can demo like uh both like creating a CLI and also like some of your favorite CLIs on printing press.

Yeah. So literally you I just typed in printing press and I might be a few a few days behind because it's shipping a lot. I actually don't know what to

lot. I actually don't know what to print. Do you have anything you want to

print. Do you have anything you want to print?

Um any any web pages that you use? Uh I I let me show the library for a second just so you can see examples of stuff that's in here. So in AI, there's 11

labs. Midjourney. Midjourney doesn't

labs. Midjourney. Midjourney doesn't

have an API. So that's pretty cool.

Someone printed a midjourney CLI for commerce, Amazon ads, Amazon seller for uh developer tools, agent capture, airframe, all recipes.

I think uh Substack CLA will be useful personally.

Yeah.

To see what kind of post people are writing.

Yeah.

Oh, there is one already.

Oh, there's one printed by uh Chertown. So, there

already is one. And what's crazy is I think we launched with maybe like 40 or so CLI. Now there's 200 plus like people

so CLI. Now there's 200 plus like people are just printing these. And it blows my mind how how cool it is.

And to print uh like what's the process to print one to just be like, "Hey, can you can you just print one for me for this product?" Is that what it is?

this product?" Is that what it is?

Yeah. So, literally, you just type in I think it's just checking to make sure it's up to Why why don't we try Why don't we try Papa John's Pizza? Papa

John's Pizza. Is there

Sure.

Yeah.

Um, so Papa John's pizza. So I'm not logged into Papa John's, but let's see what it does. It'll at least start the process.

does. It'll at least start the process.

We definitely do not have a Papa John's uh uh Omar from Microsoft, who's running uh OpenClaw Strategy at Microsoft, he printed the Jimmy John's sandwich CLI

using the printing press. Nice.

All right. Um, and then it says, "Anything you want to share before we begin? A vision for what the CLI should

begin? A vision for what the CLI should do? Specific features you care about?"

do? Specific features you care about?"

Um, and then so the options are, "Let's go. Start research. I'll ask for API

go. Start research. I'll ask for API keys, browser, or other context when I need them. Do you have vision specific

need them. Do you have vision specific features? Let's just go see what

features? Let's just go see what happens."

happens." Yeah. Okay. So, so I guess like a lot of

Yeah. Okay. So, so I guess like a lot of the value is actually uh yeah, finding the relevant GitHub projects and the secret keys. Yeah. Like a lot of stuff

secret keys. Yeah. Like a lot of stuff that I use are like just really annoying. Like I have a scale that I use

annoying. Like I have a scale that I use to get my weight and stuff.

Yep.

Yep.

Yeah. So, so Trevan actually he he had a wacky idea I want to say yesterday to build a Bluetooth har sniffer because he had a scale sorry not a scale a uh a

treadmill that he used and he wanted to be able to write a CLI to control his treadmill so his agents could control his treadmill and he built it and it works and he shipped it

yesterday which is crazy.

Wow. And and while we're waiting, maybe you can like just uh give a quick primer of like you know CLI versus MCP or like you know what's so special about CLI.

Yeah. So

I'd say for for me I often find for companies where I'm using their tool where they

only have an MCP, I feel like I'm always authenticated and logged out.

Like it it just seems to always happen.

I don't know why. I probably need to do a C plan. Why am I always logged out? Is

it a me problem? Is it someone else? But

I know a lot of people around me feel like they're always logged out. And it's

like, oh, you got to refresh your MCP and renew your O token, right? And it's

it's quite annoying. And what I' I've found is CLIs are very clever and thoughtful about how they reoff. So, a

lot of the the CLI within the printing press, there's a mode that the agent knows about. It's like, yeah, okay, I

knows about. It's like, yeah, okay, I just need to go load the browser and refresh the web page and then all the CLIs will work again for this specific use case. And I know how to refresh my

use case. And I know how to refresh my token. Like, it's built in. How do I

token. Like, it's built in. How do I refresh my token automatically?

Okay.

And what what's interesting is what we actually print with the printing press is we don't just print a CLI. We print a CLI and an agent skill and an MCP for

everything we print. So for example, so I used the the flight goat before, right? So if you install the flight

right? So if you install the flight goat, you get a CLI and you get a cloud code skill, you get a codeex skill, you get a Hermes skill, you get an open

clause skill, and you also get a a full MCP, so you can use it actually in cloud desktop, which is crazy. So you can actually download that and install into

cloud desktop, uh, which is wild. It

blew my mind when Trevan showed me me that one that he he built. And so the the answer the the magic for me is if I just have a CLI, I feel like I don't know how to call upon it. Like it's up

to the luck of my agent to maybe find it. But if there's a skill plus a CLI,

it. But if there's a skill plus a CLI, that's the real magic. And so if I'm in OpenClaw, if I'm in Hermes, if I'm in Claude Code, then it can just it knows how to go.

It knows how to trigger or like you can trigger it manually. Yeah.

Yep.

Makes sense.

Exactly. Well, does Papa John thing uh have anything or is still working?

Oh, it takes about 45 minutes to an hour. By the way, we are not going to

hour. By the way, we are not going to finish the CLI. And I also need to register for for for Papa John's, but uh what it's saying is it says there's no

CLI right now. Um but but two so ordering peers due. Do you want to continue building Papa John? Of course,

we want to keep building Papa John's.

So, we'll So, here's what it's going to do. It's going to resolve the spec

do. It's going to resolve the spec library lock registry checks API key check gate research the brief for Papa John's off intelligence browser sniff gate crowd sniff gate absorb gate

reachability generate CLI build absorb transcendent features got it and so right now look it googled it didn't go it ordered Papa John's is ordering API reverse engineering GitHub

API endpoint store locator menu JSON Papa John CLI Python pizza order automation so this is this is how it's kicking off which is fun got Got it's trying to find all the secret keys and like you know GitHub projects.

Yes, that's where we're starting. Look,

Papa John's has a Postman collection plus several unofficial rappers. Let me

dig into the ground truth endpoints. So

now we're GitHub Yo Contra Papa John's Postman Papa John's team GitHub Brett Jurgens Papa John's Thin Remies. Let me

read the actual rapper source for ground truth endpoints and probe the live API directly.

So there is an API. Maybe

everything has an API. There's no

official Papa John's ordering AP. It's

talking about the secret APIs, not not like you go to papa johns.comi, they're

like, "Here's our documentation."

Yeah. Order pizza in your application.

Got it. Got it. Okay. Got it, dude.

Yeah. The world's going to run APIs, man. Like, no one's going to browse

man. Like, no one's going to browse around the UI anymore. Just get the agent to go to API and like order pizza from me or do whatever I want.

Yeah. I mean, I I get so frustrated when something doesn't have a CLI, but then I just build it for myself. So, I'll I'll give an example where I um trying to figure out how to talk about this

without uh without outing my my company that doesn't exist, but I want to generate a lot of AI videos from the command line while working on diff a

different workflow. And open art is one

different workflow. And open art is one of my favorite places where you can just choose okay, I want to use seed dance. I

want to use this video model. I want to use this image model if I want to do nana banana. It's just like they have

nana banana. It's just like they have access to all the great video models. I

have an account and image models and so I have a a cloud code skill that it's the goal is not to generate videos. It's

an unrelated thing but one of the outputs I want is a generated video with prompts that are automated. And so I was like all right open art do you have an

API? No. Open art do you have a CLI? No.

API? No. Open art do you have a CLI? No.

I was like all right printing press open art. And so it built it. It found all

art. And so it built it. It found all the secret APIs uh by sniffing and it worked and I use it every single day

now. Like it's built into my workflows

now. Like it's built into my workflows entirely agentically. I never have to go

entirely agentically. I never have to go to openarch.com anymore. It just

literally downloads videos for me. Uh

another one is iso. So for like making music and you never have to go to sununo.com again. You can just do it

sununo.com again. You can just do it entirely through the CLI and there is no API for Psuno. So it's just completely sniffed and found by the printing press.

And uh these CLIs are are they also all on GitHub or they just on the printing press?

Yeah, they're they're all on GitHub.

They're all on printing press.

Everything links to to GitHub. They're

all open source and people make PRs. So

if things change like Dominoes where they change their APIs, someone can just make a PR to the Printing Press library and then everyone gets a new Domino's update. Or you can build like some sort

update. Or you can build like some sort of routine or something. Just check

check for any changes APIs or something.

Yeah, that's amazing. You build like a platform to make CLI basically. And by

the way, all all this stuff is open source and free, right? So So it's it's just like it's a big service, man. To do the world.

Yeah. And we we we keep hearing people like saying like, "Hey, I was about to have my engineering team start on building our MCP because that's the cool thing to do, but then we discovered Printing Press, so we're just going to

use you and make that our official CLI and MCP." I'm like, "Go for it. But it's

and MCP." I'm like, "Go for it. But it's

open source. Have fun.

Which is amazing. We we had a company in Ko Lumpur. They put out a a press

Ko Lumpur. They put out a a press release on the wire officially announcing their official CLI and and skill and it was literally they just used the printing press and I was like

this is awesome.

Nice man. Nice. First of all, I didn't realize you were not an engineer. But

like second of all, how do you come up with these crazy ideas? You just like uh Saturday morning you just wake up like hey I have like three ideas. see you

plant these three ideas.

That's it. That's it. And the cost to testing and building something, it's like so so easy. I'll give an example of

a stupid one that I spent probably too many tokens on for for 24 hours. I said

uh CE plan SQLite is 21 years old. I

want to redesign SQLite for agents from scratch.

can you make a plan for that? And then

he's like, "Yeah, of course. This will

be great." And then spent a really long time like eightish hours with very limited. I

felt like I did did goal, which I didn't even do. Like it was just very

even do. Like it was just very aggressive. Like we're we're going to

aggressive. Like we're we're going to make it better. We made benchmarks. Oh,

this is faster. This is slower. I'm

like, I don't know what's going on. And

then it made it to the end and it's like, okay, here's the honest truth.

Like this these three things are faster than Escalite, but these three things are actually much slower. I was like, "Okay, well, let's play devil's advocate." Uh, if I said to Trevan, who

advocate." Uh, if I said to Trevan, who I built the printing press with, "Hey, I'm ripping out SQL light on every single CLI and replacing it with this today." What would he say? And he's

today." What would he say? And he's

like, "Yeah, he would kill you and this is trash and you should probably end this project." And so I did. I I didn't

this project." And so I did. I I didn't again, I never read the plan. I never

sent it to Trevan. I I just I I I I felt confident in its answer that it built something that was not good or useful.

But I I've also done that to to make it uh better. Like like for example with

uh better. Like like for example with with agent cookie, right? It's literally taking all your

right? It's literally taking all your cookies and secrets and sending them to another machine. Like that sounds scary.

another machine. Like that sounds scary.

Like I'm not hosting anything in the cloud. It's all through tail scale which

cloud. It's all through tail scale which I I think was a smart uh security decision. But I I said C plan, one of my

decision. But I I said C plan, one of my friends who's one of the leading security experts in the world just said that agent cookie is a complete nightmare and I shouldn't even launch it. And by the way, no one said that.

it. And by the way, no one said that.

Like I was just trying to play devil's advocate. And it was like you're totally

advocate. And it was like you're totally right. And then it was like actually no,

right. And then it was like actually no, it's fine. And but I make this one

it's fine. And but I make this one change. And so it was like it was kind

change. And so it was like it was kind of fun just to to think that way.

So maybe you can show us the way that you actually work uh with agents. So it

sounds like you actually just like use C plan on several things at once and there's maybe go play with your kids or something and then like five hours later you come back and you you answer like an adversarial or stress test question to

see if it actually makes any sense. Is

that kind of hard?

I mean I I usually just have like six or so windows open so there's always something to do. So there's uh and I'm always carrying a laptop around with me.

Like I figured out how to close it at least and like keep it in my bag. So, so

my wife is like less like open laptop at school and now it's under my arm or in my bag at school, but it's still running. The agents are still still

running. The agents are still still going. And I I just have a lot of these

going. And I I just have a lot of these going all the time. And so I I quit everything actually before I I did this cuz there's some stuff I cannot share my screen on. So you only see like

four tabs.

Yeah.

In in there right now when I'm sharing my screen. But yeah, I I always have

my screen. But yeah, I I always have good ideas, bad ideas.

uh fun fun things, stupid things going at at all times.

Got it. Okay. So, maybe you you have like a couple things that you're working on constantly like printing press and then you have a bunch of like zero to one stuff they're thinking about. Yeah.

Yeah. And a lot of open source stuff too. So, I've I've gotten really really

too. So, I've I've gotten really really addicted to to open source. So, I'll

share my screen for a second.

Tell me because I want to be open source contributor too. How do you become a

contributor too. How do you become a great open source contributor? Like I

guess as also not engineer I kind of worry about shipping slop or like put putting slot PRs in there but like how do you get over this fear just to do it?

Yeah, you just do it. You just start. I

remember I I tweeted about it the my first open cloud PR that got got merged.

I u Peter Steinberger was like thanks M.

Van Horn for the good PR and I remember I I remember I tweeted I was like trying not to be starruck trying to keep it cool but I can't keep it cool. I can't

believe Peter just said thank you to me and I my code now exists in openclaw forever like ah like like was like

overly excited and that that that moment like I I I can ask an agent to look it up but I like I would love to look at the date of that tweet compared to the velocity of my open

source contribution of getting addicted to that adrenaline has been crazy. So let me I'll just scroll through here a bit. So these are my my projects last 30 days which has 28,000 stars. Printing press 3,000

28,000 stars. Printing press 3,000 printing press library 1.4 and then aging cookie which just launched. But

then here are the projects that I've been merged to.

So Python dude so Python Go OpenCV I had one get merged to OpenCV this morning. Uh Versell I'm the number five human contributor to

agent browser. Um Zed I've had many

agent browser. Um Zed I've had many verged. Uh Open Viking Paperclip I'm the

verged. Uh Open Viking Paperclip I'm the number three human contributor.

superpowers. I'm number seven. And so,

uh, Gemini CLI had a bunch merged, too.

And this this list, GStack, I'm the number three human contributor on GStack.

Yeah.

And this this list doesn't end, by the way. Like Post Hog, continue, Light

way. Like Post Hog, continue, Light Panda, like it it keeps going. M Dash,

let's take like uh the GWS CLI, the Google CLI, right? Like how do you find what to contribute to? you just you use it and find it annoying and then you just you hey can you put a PR

that's that's how it started but now it's very very automated like I've built massive systems around how this happens because I I have a company I have my

project and so literally most my open- source contribution happens while I sleep and I've built up these systems over time to do this and again it was very manual in the beginning like you

you you asked the question how you could get started right like find find a problem or a feature you want and then say C plan I want to build this feature

and how could I do that and again it's it's like I I've been merged to hundreds and hundreds of of projects and I've also been banned from projects like I'm

I'm banned from Rust which makes me very sad because I love Rust my my last company we did a lot of Rust pioneering on the embedded front at at June and I'm banned and and I I appealed and they

said, "No, thank you. You use

because you were mering too many PRs."

Oh, you were too much AI. Okay, got it.

Yeah, they're they're I don't know if it's changed, but I I literally got banned the week that Peter's thing got accepted me in OpenClaw. So, I got overly excited and then like banned from

Rust immediately. I I don't think I've

Rust immediately. I I don't think I've been banned from anything in a while.

Like I I want to add value. But what was really fun, I can go with uh Python as as an example. I can pull this up quickly, but um so I had some very small minor things get merged into Python. And

then I said to my agent like I want to build a major Python feature like similar to like I want to start a programming language from scratch. And I

was like I want to build a major Python feature. How does that work? What could

feature. How does that work? What could

that do? And it was like, "Oh, well, for for you, you have to you have to go onto the Python message board and pitch your feature to the people that run Python

and have for a long time. Like these

these these people are legends that are on there." And so jamming back and forth

on there." And so jamming back and forth with my agent, I was like, I want a meaty fun feature to to make it into Python. Uh, and it came up with

Python. Uh, and it came up with something and I'm like, okay, that kind of makes sense to me. That that seems good. And and so here here's the thread.

good. And and so here here's the thread.

I just found it on me me pitching the the Python gods cross language method suggestion. Hi, I've had a couple PRs

suggestion. Hi, I've had a couple PRs merge in CP Python recently. Um, and I have this idea for a feature and the the basic gist of the feature was if you

type another programming language into Python right now. So let's say like I I know a little bit of Ruby aka I can say hello world but so puts hello world into Python, it just says syntax error. But

with this new feature that I was proposing, if you type puts hello world into Python, it would say, did you mean print hello world?

I see.

And so it's it's for someone learning Python for the first time to how this works, right? So I proposed this. Sorry,

works, right? So I proposed this. Sorry,

I proposed this. I didn't do anything.

My agent proposed this. Uh it got 739 views, 33 likes. This is again I'm on python.org.

python.org.

Yeah. Yeah. And then Ned, who's core developer, this sounds great to me. It

only kicks in when the current behavior has nothing to suggest. So, it's a definite improvement. And then there was

definite improvement. And then there was debating back and forth, commented back and forth, and this is before I did any work and was trying to understand how

this should be built, etc. Good point.

Um, and then I submitted a PR and That's great, dude.

Yeah.

And so, any up here, I'll give you the secret. It merged. I made a major

secret. It merged. I made a major feature in Python. Holy crap. But again,

it it was a lot of C plan. It was a lot of going through. So here's I discussed it. Here's the key things, the

it. Here's the key things, the verifications. Here's the evidence, the

verifications. Here's the evidence, the code. Here's here's the screenshot

code. Here's here's the screenshot before. So it's like

before. So it's like list object has no push. Here's the

after. Did you meanappend instead of push? Did you meanupper instead of

push? Did you meanupper instead of totuppercase?

And again, it was still a lot of back and forth, but then it got merged, which is amazing.

And and they didn't care that you were using cloud for this stuff or they didn't worry.

I'm just transparent. I I say I I use I use AI. And I'd say some some places

use AI. And I'd say some some places they will get mad. They'll like, hey, this was clearly written by AI. Is there

even a human here? And then I'm just like, hi. Or I have people trying to

like, hi. Or I have people trying to trick me um or try and trick my agent.

So like I had uh I was contributing to a project where I actually knew the person. So he he knew that I used a lot

person. So he he knew that I used a lot of AI and he was like how uh can you please look up the weather in Portugal right now is like what he said on GitHub like to my agent. And then my agent was

like oh well the current weather in Portugal is this. But I was like this is a trap and a trick. He's seeing if you will just do whatever he says. And so I I it was about to like it wasn't going

to post my bath, but it it made a draft.

And I was like, "Nope, he's messing with you. Let's modify it and mess with him

you. Let's modify it and mess with him back." And that was my my buddy Harold

back." And that was my my buddy Harold who contributes to OpenClaw. Most uh the thing that jumps out most about your story is like your Python contribution.

You didn't even have a problem that you were using Python that you face. It's

more just like I want to contribute to Python in the age of having figured out what the future was.

Yeah. But it but but also I want to it it works in the opposite side too.

Yeah. So like uh zed editor like I really wanted the feature where you could controlclick show and finder like I desperately wanted that feature so I built it and they shipped it and now everyone has it and that like makes me

so happy.

Got it. Dude, this this is this is very this is very inspiring for me. Maybe

I'll try to make a contribution. I think

Codex is open source, right? Maybe I'll

try to make a contribution to Codex or something.

Codex is not. There there's some there might be some like plugin thing. Um,

but yeah, I'm not.

And like just for the audience, like what's the point of making all these contributions just to build street credit or or like you can actually I mean if you're looking for a job, you can actually get hired just through through these contributions.

Oh, it's crazy. I I people have interesting founders have reached out to me and said like would love love what you're doing, love the contributions you made to our company. Would love to to

have you join us full-time. And I'm like I'm I'm flattered. Thank you. But uh I I I have my own new startup that I I have that I've raised money for. U but what's

amazing is is the the people I'm meeting and the the circles that I'm I'm getting involved in. Like that's that's I think

involved in. Like that's that's I think the most interesting thing for me is meeting the most interesting agentic builders in the world.

Uh just from like they pay on GitHub or something or they pay on this contribution.

Yeah. there. It's just just like there's like a a secret network in any world.

Like the most interesting founders all know each other. The most interesting PMs all

each other. The most interesting PMs all know each other like the like all these like secret WhatsApp groups that have happened over the last decade like that exists in amongst the most interesting

agentic engineers. And so what's what's

agentic engineers. And so what's what's amazing and I I've been meeting so many incredible people u and by by being in the discords of interesting projects and

like I I call the Peter Peter Steinberger's his crew I call them Peter's disciples and so like like the the the stuff that they're doing is

crazy and and I've I've become friends with a lot of them which is really neat and very impressive and we're always sharing tips and and tools and tricks and sharing each other's projects. and

contributing to each other's projects.

So, even though it it kind of looks like it's just for for the fun and the glory, like this is making my future company more successful by meeting the most interesting people. And it's also

interesting people. And it's also incredible for recruiting. Like, being

able to know the best agentic engineers in the world right now. Like, like I I've taken pride in my career as like recruiting is one of the reasons that I've been successful so far in life. And

now I have a line to the people moving the fastest in the entire world at shipping.

It's amazing.

How many of these agentic engineers are also like um like you know they have like a decade of experience in engineering or the people like you who like tinker stuff like is it kind of a mix?

I'd say I'm the most incompetent person that I've met in terms of actual skills to success ratio. But what I what I am finding is a lot of people like I'll use

Trevan as an example uh and I I'll use him as example then it's a funny story of how he he got involved in printing press. But uh Trevan at least studied

press. But uh Trevan at least studied computer science in college but for the last I don't know how long he's worked

20 years 15 years he has been a product person VP of product like um chief product officer and now he's running

compound engineering and number one contributor to compound engineering and he has not written to the best of my knowledge not written a line of software since college and look at the lines of code that he's

doing and again I'm incompetent he's competent right if you look at our base skill sets but like I'd say that there's a very different type of person that can be very very successful right now that's amazing yeah cuz I think at VP of

product you definitely don't contribute engineering code so it's good that he made the career transition yeah yeah but again you need to be careful and thoughtful about not not creating slop and I think tools like competent

engineering allow you to do that last question have you ever launched something and I'm sure you have that like just no one cares about people think it's slop like how do you get over that fear of embarrassment, you know, to

get started with this stuff?

Yeah. So, it's it's interesting. So, I I have two projects that are 100% shippable and ready and I'm afraid to ship them and that makes me sad and and

I'm afraid to ship them because what if they're not a hit, right? Like I've been been very lucky and fortunate that my my launch videos have been getting, you

know, million views on last 30 days launch, a million views on pretty press launch. I I haven't looked up the the

launch. I I haven't looked up the the agent cookie numbers. Definitely much

smaller on agent cookie, but it it serves its own niche powerful purpose, but I I have I have a game like a a

video game. It's a It's a sim game, like

video game. It's a It's a sim game, like a simulation game for being a founder and starting an AI startup.

Yeah, you should ship that. That sounds

good.

It is good. But the the early feedback that I got from friends, and again, most of my friends are like crazy busy founders.

Yeah.

They were like, "Okay, yeah, I'll play with this tomorrow." And then like they never

tomorrow." And then like they never played with it or they played with it for five minutes. like the amount of friends of mine that actually like finished the game, which you can do in like 40 minutes

was was very low. And so like that that made me I don't know what the word is just like sad. Like I think it's great.

Like it's so fun, but like does anyone else care? And like I just that like

else care? And like I just that like fear of rejection is real. And so um I'm I'm not sure. I probably should just launch it. There's one brilliant game

launch it. There's one brilliant game mechanic in it that I feel like if I launch it, even if it's a total flop that the game industry should steal and be inspired by from this game. So maybe

I should just launch it for that cuz I invented something crazy that I think will be a standard in the game industry once it's out there. But I'm I'm fearful that no one's going to care that it's

only going to get x number of retweets.

And we'll we'll see.

Okay. Well, send it to me. I I want to play play it. Yeah. I I'll let you know how I feel. Yeah,

sounds good. Maybe maybe you will inspire me to to ship it. So I guess uh yeah so I guess the the lesson is like even after all these successful projects or maybe because of these successful projects you still have the fear the

fear of failure is still there very very much for sure but but also just just build just launch something like it's it's okay even if you build something for yourself like even if I had no users of agent cookie like if no one used it I

get value out of it like it helps my agents be so much better like that's that's magical.

Yeah I do think it's very important to solve your own problem so like at least one user is satisfied.

Yeah, that's what I've been doing too, too. Cool, man. Well, well, dude, this

too. Cool, man. Well, well, dude, this is super inspiring, man. This is super inspiring. Um, where can people follow

inspiring. Um, where can people follow your journey?

Uh, X M Van Horn on X.

Yeah. X X and also your GitHub and all your crazy open source contributions.

Yes, it's all M M Van Horn anywhere, but X X is where where my stuff happens.

Cool. All right, man. Well, you you definitely inspired me. I'm going to make some uh open source contributions this afternoon. Great. I I have I have

this afternoon. Great. I I have I have projects. We will take your PRs. I will

projects. We will take your PRs. I will

I will look at them personally.

Okay.

Don't Don't submit garbage or slop, please. Me.

please. Me.

Uh I'll you see you plan to make sure it's not garbage. Yeah.

Yeah. All right, man. Thanks. Amazing.