How to Build a Magnetic Brand that Sells Itself ft. Seth Godin

So attention has always been critically important and it has a best friend named trust. So you're measuring the wrong

trust. So you're measuring the wrong thing.

That's Seth Goden, one of the most influential marketers of our time and 21 time best-selling author. He's been

teaching people how to stand out, build trust, and create change for over three decades.

Marketing is telling a true story to people who want to hear it and creating a story that people want to spread. In

this episode, Seth shares why most brands are chasing metrics that don't matter, how to build something so remarkable that people talk about it over time, and how the size of your audience is completely irrelevant.

If you were honest with yourself, would you buy what you make? Would you listen to what you do? If you didn't know you, we dive into the smallest viable audience, the real purpose of marketing, and why if people aren't buying, the

problem isn't them, it's your story.

Find the 10 perfect people. If it

doesn't work for them, make something better. If it does work for them,

better. If it does work for them, perhaps they'll tell the others. If they

tell the others, you grow.

This isn't about short-term hacks.

This is the blueprint for building an audience that actually buys. Let's go.

So, Seth, you've been at the center of marketing for decades now, and we really want to understand when it comes down to it, when you boil it down, what makes somebody buy versus not?

I don't think many people understand what marketing is. It's not hustle or hype or pushing something out there.

It's not getting the word out. Marketing

is telling a true story to people who want to hear it and creating a story that people want to spread. If you

create enough value, you'll be fine. And

it's so easy to get addicted to the endless social media hustle. Likes

doesn't mean anyone likes you. Friends

doesn't mean they're your friend. And

followers doesn't mean they're following you. What you have to do is figure out

you. What you have to do is figure out how to matter.

I love that. I I just recently listened to Alex or Mosie on Direo yesterday and they were talking about how, you know, you have these people right now that have 50 million followers, 20 million

followers, all the likes, all the comments, but nothing is converting for them. Why do you think that is? And why

them. Why do you think that is? And why

can someone that has a much smaller audience actually get someone to transact with them? Like what do you think is the psychology behind that?

You've you've been studying it for so many years.

Well, what does it even mean to have an audience? Are you are you stealing

audience? Are you are you stealing attention? Are you a clown putting on a

attention? Are you a clown putting on a sideshow? Because a clown can get a lot

sideshow? Because a clown can get a lot of attention, but there aren't very many people in the clown fan club. So,

the size of the audience is completely irrelevant. It's like asking how many

irrelevant. It's like asking how many words per minute you can type if you're hiring a programmer. It doesn't matter.

What matters is, would we miss you if you were gone? Are you offering us status or affiliation? Is there tension associated with the thing you're offering? And I don't want to miss out

offering? And I don't want to miss out because if all you're doing is talking and creating controversy and having fights with people and you want to collect a crowd, I can't stop you from doing that. But it's no way to make a

doing that. But it's no way to make a living.

Would you say though that in today's day and age like attention is a form of currency and super important are what you're saying is that attention isn't

everything. You just need to worry about

everything. You just need to worry about being as remarkable as possible. So

attention has always been critically important and it has a best friend named trust and it is possible to get attention without trust

um but it's not worth anything. It is

possible to get trust without a lot of attention that's worth a ton. So you're

measuring the wrong thing. And the idea of remarkable doesn't mean a gimmick. It

doesn't mean a hustle. It means worth making a remark about.

So, this show has a lot of people watching and listening to it. Did they

find out about it because you called them up at home and said, "Uh, you got to watch my show." I don't think so.

Most of the people who are listening have never met the two of you. They

heard about it from someone who else heard about it who told them about it.

And people spread the idea not because it's a cataclysm and a joke. They spread

the idea because it will make them look good if they introduce their friends to what you're doing. That's what

remarkable means. Worth making a remark about. Break down for me the difference

about. Break down for me the difference between marketing advertising because I think it gets thrown around a lot and people just don't have a concrete definition for the two of these. Can you

go into it really quickly for us?

So, if you saw Madman in the old days, that's an advertising agency. And in the 60s, they were the same, marketing and advertising. If you had a marketing

advertising. If you had a marketing budget, it was your ad budget. What

advertising is is spending money to take people's attention. And if you do it in

people's attention. And if you do it in a way that makes you a profit, you get to do it again. So Proctor and Gamble can spend billions of dollars a year on advertising.

Marketing in the post TV world is totally different because it doesn't cost cash to a media company. It costs

effort to make something people want to talk about. So what's Banksy's

talk about. So what's Banksy's advertising budget? Zero.

advertising budget? Zero.

But his marketing budget, meaning how much time does Banksy spend imagining the next thing he's going to create is

huge. So if you're being lazy and

huge. So if you're being lazy and working on a funnel and counting your clicks and trying to get the word out there, you're getting exactly what you deserve. But if you're spending your

deserve. But if you're spending your time putting on an honest show that people want to see and they want to engage with and they want to be part of, that's hard

work. That's a useful way to spend your

work. That's a useful way to spend your time. Going back to I guess the podcast

time. Going back to I guess the podcast example, I agree that we have a show that people are talking about and spreading the word about, but distribution I feel like is also

important and like staying consistent on posting content and getting the word out about our show is also important and I think that's a big reason why our show has grown. So, what would you say to

has grown. So, what would you say to that when it comes to I agree that being remarkable is having a product that somebody wants to talk about, but when it comes to today's day and age where

marketing on social media is like really important to grow as a business, what would you say to that?

Well, I think first I'm going to call you out a little bit cuz twice you said in today's day and age, it's not different.

Okay.

It's just easy to make an excuse out of it. I have to do this because Facebook

it. I have to do this because Facebook gives me no choice. I have to spend all my time answering my DMs because in today's day day and age it's the only way. Well, actually not. No one even

way. Well, actually not. No one even knows Banksy's name. Banksy doesn't seem to have any problems, right? So, no, you could go work for free for Mark

Zuckerberg. You could go work for free

Zuckerberg. You could go work for free for for Tim or anybody else, hustling on their platform, doing all the things they say for you to do. No one's ever

gotten ahead doing that. Mr. Beast isn't Mr. Beast because Mr. beast is better at posting regularly on YouTube than other people, right? There's a million people

people, right? There's a million people who are following those playbooks and a hundred of them win the lottery. So, I

don't believe that following the pattern of people who might have had better timing than you or might have had a better break than you is the way to catch up with them. It's not. What you

need to do is say, "Can I make an episode as good as Starly Klein's episode three of Mystery Show, a podcast that she recorded nine years ago?"

Because if you can make an episode that good, people will be talking about you in nine years.

And what it means to be good is not that you have a shouting match with Elon Musk. What it means to be good is you

Musk. What it means to be good is you did something that actually mattered.

That is so interesting. It's such a different way of of thinking about, you know, where where people should be putting their time and attention because I think a lot of the the gurus or the people that are big in the space right

now are screaming at you to be posting so consistently on social and it it's like a it's a running match to fall off like the end of this cliff almost instead of really focusing on your

product being spectacular going forward for like the brands that might be listening to our show right now. Maybe they're in this like 1 to 5

now. Maybe they're in this like 1 to 5 million range and they're doing good work, right? They're they have a product

work, right? They're they have a product that works, but they might not be exceptional and they might have like one thing of the exceptional brand in their space. What advice do you have for them

space. What advice do you have for them from a more marketing standpoint that could help them exceed and kind of go to this next level?

Well, it helps to start by admitting that you're just not that good yet.

Okay?

Right? that it's possible that you're a $3 million brand that's already good enough to be a $300 million brand, but it's more likely that you're a $3 million brand that through the force of

your will got from half a million to three million but is running out of steam because you just can't manually take it to the next level. That

if you were honest with yourself, would you buy what you make?

Would you listen to what you do? if you

didn't know you, you know. So, when you look at the sad people who do MLM and are hustling their cousins and their mother-in-law to buy some stuff from

them, well, that's not selling. That's

just leveraging your relatives that what you want. You know, if if you take a

you want. You know, if if you take a look at Supreme, there's a $120 t-shirt. There's a line out the door to buy this shirt. And I

saw that line and everyone in that line was already wearing a shirt.

So they weren't selling clothing to people who were naked. They were selling something else. And Supreme isn't a $3

something else. And Supreme isn't a $3 million brand. It's probably a $300

million brand. It's probably a $300 million brand because they decided to stand for something. It doesn't mean that the cotton in their t-shirt is better than the cotton in my t-shirt.

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm

saying they have a story that's worth paying for.

And in a double blind study, people probably couldn't tell it apart. But

we're not double blind. What we buy is the story. We buy the way it makes us

the story. We buy the way it makes us feel to add that tincture to our morning shake. Right? If the tincture had

shake. Right? If the tincture had nothing in it but water, it probably would work just as well because the placebo is what works and it's worth paying for. Placeos are great. So if you

paying for. Placeos are great. So if you got a2 million $3 million brand, I would ask you the following question.

How many new customers did you get yesterday as a result of a direct referral from one of your existing customers?

And if the answer is I don't know, not that many, then you got to make a better story and you got to make a better product. How can a business track that?

product. How can a business track that?

What are like some actual ways that besides a is it maybe having a form on their website or just straight up asking their customers? Is there is there a way

their customers? Is there is there a way that you can track that?

Okay. So, if you're a two or three million dollar brand, you're only seeing a few new customers every day. So, don't

act like Microsoft. Just pick up the phone and call people. Write them a note. Right? That CDB, which my friend

note. Right? That CDB, which my friend Derek Civers built into a multi multi-million dollar company, you can go Google what the email you got when you

became a customer of CDB was like. That

email did not fit any playbook. that

email was worth however many millions of dollars it was worth when he sold the company because he was a a real person running an actual business and people

are stunned. You know, when I got into

are stunned. You know, when I got into business school, the head of admissions called me on the phone and I was like, "Oh my god, I can't believe." And then I realized, well, only 200 people got in.

It's not that hard for her to call 200 people. So, she did. Just talk to your

people. So, she did. Just talk to your customers. They'll talk to you. I feel

customers. They'll talk to you. I feel

like everybody's so focused on growing and scaling so fast that you can learn so much about your business by just asking yourself a few questions and then reaching out to your existing customers.

I think that's something that people should do a lot more of.

Especially a hell of a lot easier when you have 10 of them.

You can really I mean you can really learn a ton about why they bought your product. It's a lot easier. Wow. Yeah,

product. It's a lot easier. Wow. Yeah,

that is so it's so interesting. Has the

framework changed if you were to go consult back in the day for these multi-million dollar brands or versus like the really teenytiny brands maybe when you first started that you would talk to. What has stayed the exact same

talk to. What has stayed the exact same and what are a few of the things that have changed along the way? I know you mentioned earlier like a lot of the stuff is still the same. It's like just maybe people are repackaging it or saying it differently.

Yeah. So, I've never done any consulting. Sometimes I give free advice

consulting. Sometimes I give free advice to people I care about.

Um and I've given a lot of speeches around the world. So, I've hung out with people who spend a lot of money on advertising and marketing. The thing

that was true 30 or 40 years ago that isn't true now is there were a lot of people who spent all their time thinking about what

should be in their ads.

And that because this the length of a campaign is so short now, they don't have all year. Like my old boss spent 18 months on a team that redesigned the

packaging for Lays potato chips. That's

all they did for a year and a half. And

after they were done, you couldn't even tell they had done anything. But because

in those days it was worth it. You only

redid the packaging every five or 10 years. So now people are insanely

years. So now people are insanely distracted by false proxies. A false

proxy is a number that's easy to measure and worthless.

And in hiring, a false proxy is something like, um, do you look like me?

Did you go to school where I went to school? It there's no evidence that that

school? It there's no evidence that that has anything to do with you doing a good job. And a false proxy online is all the

job. And a false proxy online is all the numbers that social media companies make easy for you to find. Every one of those numbers is irrelevant. Right? I don't

use Twitter or LinkedIn or Facebook actively. Zero. I don't know what my

actively. Zero. I don't know what my numbers are. It doesn't matter. I don't

numbers are. It doesn't matter. I don't

read my Amazon reviews. It doesn't

matter. What matters is did I change someone enough that they want to talk to somebody else so it will raise their status or enable them to affiliate with

somebody. So, you know, trivial small

somebody. So, you know, trivial small business example, there's a a little microorganism called cooji. It's a spore that grows on the outside of rice. And

you can use cooji in cooking as a ferment. and you can make all sorts of

ferment. and you can make all sorts of cool sauces and things with it. So, I

bought some koji from one of the only US cooji manufacturers and he sent me a nice note by hand inside the box. He

didn't do that so I would blog about him, but I blogged about him because that's what I do. And so, I in that one act sold a lot of cooji. And then a few

weeks later, he sent all of his customers, as far as I can tell, a little bag of his new Koji just to see what we thought about it with a note saying, "What do you think about this?"

And how many people have I told about Cooji? A lot of people. I'm sort of a

Cooji? A lot of people. I'm sort of a Cooji boore. Because I find this

Cooji boore. Because I find this fascinating. It raises my status as a

fascinating. It raises my status as a cutting edge kind of cook person and also makes my friends feel good, some of whom have gone on to buy Koji. That's a

movement. That's not You could pick anyone and we're anyone. That's what

most people in the DTC business say. You

need dog food. We have dog food. Yeah,

there are lots of people have dog food.

I don't need to pay attention to you just because it's important to you. What

is the movement that we're here to create? It doesn't have to be I'm going

create? It doesn't have to be I'm going to save the world. Doesn't have to be I'm going to save the children. It could

be something a little bit more selfish than that. But it's still a movement in

than that. But it's still a movement in that you are helping people get to where they want to go.

Seth is just spitting so much game.

He's pretty knowledgeable.

God, he really is. I got to talk to him real quick, though, about motion array cuz there's a really high chance that someone listening, they might need great sound effects or even great music or graphics.

Or graphics, lower thirds.

Come on.

I mean, this is this is an episode of a thought leader. And I feel like a

thought leader. And I feel like a thought leader, you know, if you're a thought leader out there listening, you probably do social content. And we need you guys to have great assets for your videos. It's the top link down in the

videos. It's the top link down in the description.

If you want to market your product or services or personal brand better, assets is the way that's going to take your content and make it remarkable.

I bet your editor's pissed that they don't have the stuff that's in the top link down in the description because I mean, I've seen your stuff. I know that there's no music behind it.

They could use Motion Array.

I know you could. And that's why I'm telling you about it. It's the top link.

You get two months for free if you use our code. It also helps out The Rock.

our code. It also helps out The Rock.

So, go check them out. Check them out at Motion Ray. Let's go.

Motion Ray. Let's go.

I can hear people hearing your answer and saying or thinking to themselves, Seth, that's easy for you to say, you've been doing this for decades. You've

grown your personal brand. You you've

done it a million talks. Like, you have decades of experience. I'm kind of just starting out. How can I not focus on

starting out. How can I not focus on those things that you're telling me not to focus on? So, to those people, what would you say?

Well, I would say two things. First of

all, I'm not particularly wellnown. I've

sold uh 21 bestsellers in a row, but not one of them, not one has reached more than 1% of the US population. So, to a

rounding error, my market share is zero.

And I like it like that. Number two,

when I started my blog, I only had 30 readers. And I didn't once do any

readers. And I didn't once do any promotion to get to the scale that I have now, right? So when I started out, no one knew who I was and I even had a

little bit of hair. So, but yeah, I have enormous privilege, an enormous advantage. And there are things I get

advantage. And there are things I get away with that most people can't because I am trusted, not because I am known.

And what I say is super simple. Can you

find 10 people who trust you? If there

are if there are not 10 people who trust you, you got big problems. But if there are 10 people who trust you, can you bring them your idea? Send them your

novel in PDF form something.

And after you do that, do they tell the others? If they don't tell the others,

others? If they don't tell the others, you got to make something better. If

they do tell the others, you're on to something. So the book that made my

something. So the book that made my career after permission marketing was this one. I had been kicked out of the

this one. I had been kicked out of the book industry because I had done a book that was a total failure. So I had no publisher. I did have a column and fast

publisher. I did have a column and fast company and I wrote about this book.

There's it's inside the milk carton. And

I said if you want a free copy, send me five bucks and I'll mail it to you. I

only have 10,000.

So I sold 5,000 of them and I broke even. So that's only 5,000 people. And

even. So that's only 5,000 people. And

then I did nothing else to promote it and it ended up selling millions of copies. Is it because it's the best book

copies. Is it because it's the best book ever written? No. But it's easy to talk

ever written? No. But it's easy to talk about. It makes your life better if your

about. It makes your life better if your boss knows that you are reading Purple Cow.

That's what I did. I wrote a book so that your life would get better if you told the others.

Take me back to getting kicked out of the publishing industry and what that moment was like for you cuz you knew you had something that was great. Like I

mean you put it out to the world knowing like I put a ton of work into this. This

is an awesome product. I think it's going to lead to the success of someone's life. And I'm sure a lot of us

someone's life. And I'm sure a lot of us that are listening to this or even us like we put out an episode and it bombs and I'm like this was an amazing piece of advice like this person has done so much in business but it didn't

translate. What was the conversations

translate. What was the conversations like with yourself when you were at a place where you were faced with that rejection? You know, I've been lucky

rejection? You know, I've been lucky enough along the way to stumble into some very powerful and rich and famous people. And

people. And until very recently, I was sure that if I could just pitch that person who seemed to be in charge, it would open

the door. So, I went running with Steve

the door. So, I went running with Steve Casease when he ran AOL and it was the most important site on the internet. And

I go down this long list of CEOs and people who I would pitch an idea to and they would say, "Sure, talk to this person." And it never works that the

person." And it never works that the head of the biggest thing, the well-known brand, they have way less power than you think. So what had happened in my career, I've been a book

packager for over a decade. He did 120 books, books about gardening and uh all manner of stuff. And then I became an author author and permission marketing

was a bestseller. So on the strength of that I decided to write the book I'd always wanted to write which was with a forward by Charles Darwin and it was

about evolution in business and the way book publishers tell you they're excited is they give you an advance money you don't have to send back to say we want to publish this don't let

anybody else publish it. So I finally had my big advance. I finally had the attention of the people who were big shots at Simon and Schustster. I'm like,

this is going to be the big thing.

And uh that was three weeks before 911 and that was heartbreaking for an enormous number of people and and a trauma and a tragedy, but also meant no books got sold in the next six months.

So the book flopped was I think we ended up selling 17,000 copies. And so I had a black mark next to my name like don't work with this guy anymore. So no one

even knew about the book Purple Cow. Um,

I just knew that people in publishing had had enough of me. And it was the greatest thing that could have happened because instead of worrying about pleasing an editor who doesn't even like

business books in New York City, I could worry about pleasing my readers.

And never again did I worry about the editors. I was like, if I have readers,

editors. I was like, if I have readers, everything else will take care of itself. And that was the big shift in my

itself. And that was the big shift in my head.

Yeah. I feel like sometimes you got to uh you turn a negative into a positive and at the time you probably were pretty bummed out, but now looking back you're like it's actually the greatest thing that could have happened to me.

Explain it.

Yeah. Go ahead.

Oh, explain to us what the Purple Cow book like that thesis because I think so many people will find that extremely useful in anything that they're doing whether it's social, their brand, all

the above. So could you explain that to

the above. So could you explain that to us briefly? The reason I wrote a book is

us briefly? The reason I wrote a book is because uh I had a dear friend who owned the most important bakery in Paris and

um he was killed in a helicopter crash and I wanted to dedicate a book to him but I didn't have a book so I wrote a book so I could dedicated to Lionel and

the book is sort of about what he built because a bakery in Paris by law is flour, water, salt. and starter. That's

all you get to use. Everyone's got the same. So, how do you build a bakery that

same. So, how do you build a bakery that has a line around the corner? How do you build a bakery that twothirds of the top restaurants in Paris serve this stuff?

How do you build a bakery that now 20 years later, his daughter is still killing it? And the answer is you tell a

killing it? And the answer is you tell a story and you live a story that's worth talking about. So that when I'm there,

talking about. So that when I'm there, there are people who flown in from Japan to buy four loaves of bread and then fly home because there's something about all the pieces he and his family have put

together that make it remarkable. So,

the story in the book is not true. And

it's about me uh driving with a family through a pastor in uh rural France and my kids for 17 hours have been making a commotion and noise. And my wife has been asleep because she has

transportation narcolepsy unless there's a good air pl on the plane. And we are driving through this pasture and I notice it's quiet in the back seat. My

kids, my 5-year-old and seven-year-old, are finally falling asleep. And I look in the back seat. They're not asleep.

They're staring out the window at a cow for about 3 seconds. Cuz cows are boring. Cows are all the same. You can

boring. Cows are all the same. You can

say anything you want about a cow.

They're the same. And then I said, "But what if it had been a purple cow? If it

had been a purple cow, I would have pulled over and my wife would have woken up. She would have gotten out her phone

up. She would have gotten out her phone to take pictures of the cow so she could show her friends back home. My kids

would have ignored me as usual, opened the door, run across the street, hopped over the fence, and rubbed the cow so that they could go to show and tell in two weeks and tell everyone that they had touched a purple cow. So, it's not a

gimmick. It's just everyone's life would

gimmick. It's just everyone's life would get better if they could talk about the purple cow. So, we don't need more dog

purple cow. So, we don't need more dog food or razors or uh, you know, over-the-counter medication. What we

over-the-counter medication. What we need is something to talk about. We need

connection. We need meaning. We need a chance to get to where we're going.

That's why you should start a small business, not to be a junior version of Hines Ketchup.

When it comes to That was a rant. Sorry.

No, I I loved it. Now, when it comes to personal brand versus a, you know, uh, an actual product, a store like the cafe

or the bakery, do the principles just still stay the same or is there anything different that you tell someone who's trying to build maybe a brickandmortar or an actual physical product versus building a

personal brand and trying to monetize that personal brand through digital products or something or speaking or something like that.

Yeah. So what do you think a brand is?

Can you define that for me?

I would say a brand is the gut feeling somebody gets about you or your product when they come across uh when they come across you in person or they come across

you online.

I I'd second that.

Yeah, I agree with that. I think we should differentiate between a brand and a logo cuz when a business or a person says, "I'm rebranding," what they really mean is, "I'm reloing, putting on a new outfit." I'm redoing the colors. I'm

outfit." I'm redoing the colors. I'm

doing the color new colors.

Yeah, exactly. That's so true.

So, Hyatt Hyatt has a logo. Nike has a brand because if Nike opened a hotel, you know exactly what it would be like to stay there. But if Hyatt came out

with sneakers, you have no clue what they would be like. So, as a result, what we think of when we think of a brand is a promise, an expectation. What

do I expect from your next post? What do

I expect from your next episode? Because

if the next episode of this podcast included an interview with two doulamer playing people who raise goats, folks would be very confused because that's

not your brand. That's not part of your promise. So the Pulen

promise. So the Pulen bakery brand is very clear and if they decided to open a sandwich shop, we know

just what it would be like.

A personal brand is either I have an expectation and a trust for you or I don't. And it might be that my

don't. And it might be that my expectation is you spout nonsense and you know are annoying. That's a brand.

You could change it, but it would take a while. So I don't think there's any

while. So I don't think there's any difference whatsoever between a personal brand and a business brand. And so if we think about how do you make a living as a speaker,

you don't do it by giving slightly bit better talks than other people who give talks because that's not what speakers get rewarded for. The the market for

rewarded for. The the market for speakers who do that for free is large. You can

definitely give a lot of speeches for free if you give pretty good speeches.

But if you want to get paid a lot to give a speech, it's not because you give a pretty good speech. It's because the people in the audience when they hear you're about to give a speech are thrilled that the conference organizer

hired you. So it's about your

hired you. So it's about your reputation. It's about the expectation.

reputation. It's about the expectation.

It's about all those pieces. So, the

single best way to make a living as a professional speaker is to be successful enough at something else that you don't need to make a living as a professional speaker.

Real quick, we want to talk to our photographer and videographer listeners.

If that's not you, skip forward a little bit. But this Sunday, we're hosting a

bit. But this Sunday, we're hosting a live training. What are we doing?

live training. What are we doing?

We're going to break down how you can charge more for your work and how to position yourself to start landing more deals and stop getting ghosted by these potential new clients.

Dude, I don't want you guys going after the penny pinchers anymore. I want you making more bread with your camera. We

want to teach you guys really how it's possible to turn your creative passion into a full-time career as a creative.

That's exactly what me and Braden have done and we're going to walk you through the exact 10step framework to do that this Sunday.

It's literally 25 bucks. It's the second link in the description. I hope you join us. It'll be recorded and it'll be

us. It'll be recorded and it'll be available for 24 hours. So, go check that out. Let's keep going. Can you talk

that out. Let's keep going. Can you talk to me a little bit about something we chatted about in the very beginning and it was like tension and we talked a little bit about scarcity when like building out our products and thinking

about the strategy behind it. Where does

tension come into play? Is that the first thing you think about or is it like hey is it you know this is where we're going to be delivering the stuff.

It's we think this group hangs out on Facebook, Instagram and Tik Tok and then does it go to the tension side of things? Like what is the order of

things? Like what is the order of operations for for you?

So what's tension? Tension isn't stress.

Stress is bad. Stress is wanting two things at the same time and you can't have both.

Tension is this might not work. I might

get left behind. They're going to sell out. What will my friends think? These

out. What will my friends think? These

are This is the only reason that standup comedy works. If the comic blurts out

comedy works. If the comic blurts out the punchline before she tells the joke, it's not funny because there's no tension. So, the tension at Patagonia is

tension. So, the tension at Patagonia is different than the tension at some off-brand clothing company. At the

off-brand clothing company, it's you need clothes, we have clothes. They're

cheaper than those people. There's no

tension there. And that's fine because if I don't care, that's what I should buy.

But when a clothing designer comes out with something that's edgy that you could wear to the Met Gala, you're thinking, maybe I'll look like an idiot, but maybe people will love it. There's

tension, right? If it's, "Oh, I wonder if other people are going to be wearing it. Would that be good or would it be

it. Would that be good or would it be bad?" That's tension. So, if we want

bad?" That's tension. So, if we want change to happen, we have to willingly inflict tension,

do it as a service. So, if Taylor is doing a concert, people run to get tickets because they know the tickets won't be there tomorrow. There's tension. So the

tomorrow. There's tension. So the

conversation begins at any marketer who matters not with oh the sample audience is on Tik Tok. I want to know what's the change you seek to make. Who are you

trying to change and what is the change you seek to make?

And then we have to create a narrative around that change that some people will eagerly embrace and other people will eagerly run away from because if it's

for everyone, it's not for anybody.

We're looking for the smallest viable audience and delivering to them what they want.

What does the smallest viable audience mean? Is that going is that thinking

mean? Is that going is that thinking about, you know, this is my this is my ideal person. This is Mike. He's 35. He

ideal person. This is Mike. He's 35. He

works in at the railroad and we want to sell him these railroad pants and he's, you know, this is the things that he does. Like, can you explain that to our

does. Like, can you explain that to our group, the Smiseball?

Yeah, you're you're you're really close.

I don't care so much about demographics.

I care a lot about psychoraphics. Okay,

this is Mike. He believes he's a little overweight, but that if he had a better pair of pants, women would think he's more attractive. This is Mike. Mike

more attractive. This is Mike. Mike

regularly daydreams about possibility.

This is Mike. Mike has money to spend, but only on things he's sure going to make a difference. Most people don't fit that definition.

Okay, fine. Right. So, if you go to an Hermes

fine. Right. So, if you go to an Hermes store and look at a Birkin bag and you say, "What? This is what? $30,000.

say, "What? This is what? $30,000.

They don't try to justify it by telling you that the cow was named Trudy and blah blah blah. They just say, "Oh, you want to go to that store seven doors down. Thanks for stopping by." So, if

down. Thanks for stopping by." So, if you're not regularly sending people to the competition, you don't care about the smallest viable audience.

Yeah. Hermes just calls you broke and says, "This is you can go to Walmart down the street."

Oh, you must who let who let him in?

Yeah. How'd you get through the door?

Have you something that I noticed a lot of people that are in the clothing industry right now, they're struggling with the dupes on Amazon. So like people are just choosing like the lowest cost

thing. And maybe that's because the

thing. And maybe that's because the economy that we're in. Maybe it's

because of a lot of different factors.

But I'm noticing it more and more. If I

go on Amazon and let's say say you're looking for like a Lululemon shirt and the damn exact same Llemon shirt is on there with the same photo, which should be illegal, but it's on there and people

are choosing for that option. Is is

their brand just not strong enough, would you say? Like, to to keep people wanting to just spend that higher number and have that status symbol of the little Lululemon logo. When you choose

your customers, you choose your future.

When you choose your competition, you choose your future. And when you choose your marketplace, you choose your future. So

future. So if you show up on a crowded corner where everybody's selling stolen goods on bridge tables and you say, "No, no,

mine's really much better. It's

$30,000." You're not going to sell any.

You made the choice to set up on that street corner.

So Lululemon, my friend Steph Corker helped build that company. Lululemon did

some brilliant, brilliant marketing and business decisions. But that doesn't

business decisions. But that doesn't mean they're entitled to charge what they charge to every single human on the planet. It doesn't last forever. The

planet. It doesn't last forever. The

story they told, the change they seek to make, they got all the yoga moms, right?

So now, if they want to go to the next circle, they've got some challenges. And

we can't as marketers be entitled. We

have to be empathic. We have to say, "Yeah, you're right. If I were in your shoes, if I had the income you have and the story I told myself about my income that you were telling yourself, there's

no way in the world I would buy Lululemon. Of course, I'd buy this

Lululemon. Of course, I'd buy this knockoff. It's the right thing for them

knockoff. It's the right thing for them to do. Everyone does the right thing for

to do. Everyone does the right thing for them to do if they are informed."

And so the challenge you have is how do you inform people so that based on who they are and what they believe and what they see, they will make the choice that you're hoping they will make. But it's

not going to happen because you tell them they're wrong.

So are you saying that the people that would buy the product on Amazon aren't really your audience anyways that you're trying to attract? I'm saying that

when you show up with the story you've got, people are going to make a choice. And

if they're making a choice that isn't the choice you want them to make, there's nothing wrong with them. There's

something wrong with your story.

I see. And then I just want to take it back to what you were saying about the smallest viable audience. Is it possible to go too narrow? Is that ever a scenario?

Depends on what you want, right? So if

you want to write a deeply literary novel that is depressing and elliptical and intellectual, please don't be disappointed that it doesn't sell 10 million copies.

You can't have both.

And if you can find the 5,000 people who say this novel changed me, I think you should be happy and say that's enough because it matched the genre. It matched

the possibility. Right? Don't go build a giant factory and hire thousands of people to turn out these novels and then be disappointed that you didn't sell 10

million. So, in general,

million. So, in general, my theory is this. Find the 10 perfect people.

If it doesn't work for them, make something better. If it does work for

something better. If it does work for them, perhaps they'll tell the others.

If they tell the others, you grow. And

some things people don't want to talk about. They don't want to talk about the

about. They don't want to talk about the fact that they signed up for pren cremation and that they're going to save their family all this money a thousand years from now when they're dead, right?

You're just going to have a lot of trouble turning that into a purple cow because people don't want to talk about it. On the other hand, there are lots of

it. On the other hand, there are lots of things that people do want to talk about. One of the my favorite examples,

about. One of the my favorite examples, I am too old to tell you the name of the brand, but you guys will know. There are

these people who make the little stars for folks with zits to put on their face.

It's amazing. You see those out in public now all the time. I think when we were in elementary school would have been great.

No, it would have been great, but I think that people at that time maybe wouldn't have wouldn't have adopted it.

I feel like it became like a thing because I feel like there was this like I don't give a [ __ ] mentality of like if it's on my Yeah, I have a pimple. Like everyone

has pimples, you know?

Yeah. It was brilliant. Absolutely

brilliant. And where you get that lesson is from Alcoholics Anonymous.

First, it's not anonymous. Nobody knows

who's in charge. They have no ad campaign. But everyone knows what

campaign. But everyone knows what Alcoholics Anonymous is. And how do we know? We know because an alcoholic told

know? We know because an alcoholic told us. And so what they did was they

us. And so what they did was they created a status loop for people who needed help, who wanted to offer help in return. And people talked about it. So

return. And people talked about it. So

when you find this thing that's causing some people shame and you can figure out how to build a story around it that can turn it into pride and affirmation, you can build a whole brand around that.

If someone's listening to this episode and they have a brand and they're thinking to themselves, man, I don't really have any strategy when it comes to marketing. I'm kind of just winging

to marketing. I'm kind of just winging it. I'm doing it the same way I've been

it. I'm doing it the same way I've been doing it for the past decade. It's

worked, but maybe I see bigger things for me. What would you say are those few

for me. What would you say are those few key questions they should ask themselves or how can they go about auditing the way they're running their business to then start implementing a strategy when it comes to marketing?

Yeah, it's a great question. That's what

my last book is about. That's why I called it this is strategy and I made a Udemy course too. The I and there are no secrets here. There are four big ideas.

secrets here. There are four big ideas.

Time, systems, games, and empathy. Time

because tomorrow is different than today. What are you doing today that

today. What are you doing today that tomorrow will thank you for as opposed to racing around to do today's checklist? Systems, which we could talk

checklist? Systems, which we could talk about for four hours, is the invisible conspiracy that runs everything. Like

the TV industrial complex and the wedding industrial complex and the college industrial complex. If you got a six-year-old and they bring home a report card, their first report card ever, do you give them feedback on their

grades? Why? They're six,

grades? Why? They're six,

right? You give them feedback on their grades because you've been sucked into the college industrial complex and you're already grooming them to get into Harvard and we think that's normal, but

it's not games because any situation where there's humans and scarcity is a game. So if you want to build a direct

game. So if you want to build a direct to consumer razor business, you got to compete with Gillette and Schick and Harry's. If you do this, what are they

Harry's. If you do this, what are they going to do? It's a game. And the last one is empathy, which is the people you seek to serve. what do they believe?

Because they don't care what you believe one bit, but they care a lot about what they believe. And if you can get clear

they believe. And if you can get clear about that, then you can be of service.

Have you always looked at everything you do as a game or is that something that came later on? Because I I find myself heavily gamifying like everything that I do. Otherwise, I can't even get myself

do. Otherwise, I can't even get myself to do stuff. I'm like, dude, if you go to the gym 5 days this week, I don't know. I'll make a a weird award up that

know. I'll make a a weird award up that I get, but like I get get a gold noodle star and maybe we can go get ice cream.

But, you know, and I think that that's really like helped me and I I feel like there there's always a game within the game as well. I'd love for you to tell us a

well. I'd love for you to tell us a little bit more about that principle.

Okay. So, board games are different than games.

Yes.

And Monopoly is a stupid game, but board games, we use words like gify and stuff. That's

not what I'm talking about.

Okay.

Um, I started thinking this way when I was 12. My dad was my hockey coach and

was 12. My dad was my hockey coach and one of the drills, I was the scrawny little kid, easily bullied. One of the drills was there'd be two people on the little red circle and he'd throw the

puck in the corner and one person would have to go and take it that way and one person would have to go and take it that way. And I realized that if I got there

way. And I realized that if I got there a half a step slower than the other person, I could knock them into the boards instead of them knocking me into the boards. And so I would play the game

the boards. And so I would play the game of how and it took them like two weeks for them to realize what I was doing. So

then they started slowing down and finally my dad said I had to stop doing that. But the point is that's a game and

that. But the point is that's a game and it's a game to get into business school and it's a game to make a sale and it's

a game to fix climate change because these are really important issues. But

we have players and we have rules and we have scarcity and we have strategies. So

you don't have to take it personally when you fail. You can just say, "I made the wrong moves." That doesn't mean you're a bad person, right? I didn't get into Harvard. How come I I'm an idiot.

into Harvard. How come I I'm an idiot.

No, it's not cuz you're an idiot. It's

cuz you didn't play the game the way the other people played the game. They saw a system that you didn't see and that's how they got in.

Earlier in this conversation, you brought up trust. And a word that is often associated with trust is being authentic online. But I know that you

authentic online. But I know that you claim that being authentic is [ __ ] [ __ ] and you would rather be consistent. And

I would love to talk about this because I just I would love to hear you talk about it and then I'd love to have some discourse a little bit back and forth because I I see where you're coming

from, but I I also not that I disagree, but I'm just curious to hear your take and then I'd love to talk a little bit about it.

It's such a trap. I don't know why it's stuck around for so long. If you're

truly authentic and you get rejected, you've been actually rejected. If you're

truly authentic and you don't feel like it, then you shouldn't do it. If you are acting like a jerk and you say, "Well, I was just being authentic." The fact is

you were still acting like a jerk. So,

what we want in every interaction except from a Kardashian is consistency, not authenticity.

And consistency is make a promise and keep it. That we want Coca-Cola to be

keep it. That we want Coca-Cola to be consistently Coca-Cola. And we want our

consistently Coca-Cola. And we want our chiropractor to be consistently our chiropractor. And if we have surgery, we

chiropractor. And if we have surgery, we don't want to have bad surgery because the person was authentically in a bad mood. Come on. We want a professional.

mood. Come on. We want a professional.

And professionals are consistent. So, if

you think I talk to people in my life like I'm talking to you all the time like this, that's crazy. I am playing the role of Seth Goden, the author,

today. That's my job. I am being

today. That's my job. I am being consistent at that. We're not having a conversation here about whether I have a little scrape on my foot because I slipped on something. That would be me

whining, but that's not the consistent Seth Goden you wanted to hear from. I

want to go a little bit deeper on this and I kind of want to go the route of personal brand because like with the era of AI that's at our fingertips. We were talking about this

fingertips. We were talking about this before and we're saying I feel like why people gravitate towards our show is because we are so ourselves on here like you get the you meet me in person you're

going to be yes Ste if I go and hang out with my mom am I going to talk to her about business and all this stuff?

Probably not. like we're going to have a different level of conversation. But I

think right here we really do put our best foot forward to be ourselves. And I

think it's why No, no, no. You put your best foot forward and good for you. There is an alignment between who you usually are, okay,

and the brand you chose to have, right? So what I got a phone call 20

right? So what I got a phone call 20 years ago. Would I please audition to be

years ago. Would I please audition to be one of the judges on the launch of Shark Tank in the United States?

And I had seen the British thing. I

said, "Oh, you want me to be the nasty judge?" And they were like, "Yeah."

judge?" And they were like, "Yeah."

Well, they picked a different bald guy because I didn't show up. And cuz I would have broken myself if I had to be consistently the nasty one cuz it's not

who I am. So yes, please build a personal brand that rhymes with who you are comfortable being. I'm not saying you should be a fraud. It's too hard

to consistently be a fraud.

I'm saying you should pick a brand where you can show up consistently in a way that rhymes with who you want to be, but you're not allowed to phone it in or be

a jerk and claim it's cuz you were being authentic.

Totally. I totally understand what you're saying.

Yeah. I guess my mind was like if you're um you know if you preach uh health and wellness and positivity, my mind was going to oh, you can't share

that you're having a bad day or you missed a workout or you ate pizza. Um

that's kind of where my mind initially went to. But I totally understand.

went to. But I totally understand.

I'm saying I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm saying something really different than that. that Tony Robbins can

than that. that Tony Robbins can consistently talk about the times he hasn't been the pinup child for any of his things.

That's part of the brand.

Yes.

Right. And so, yes, we're all hypocrites. We shouldn't hide all of our

hypocrites. We shouldn't hide all of our hypocrisy, but we should lean into the parts that we can maintain over time.

Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Thank you

for clarifying that. I I have so many more, but I want to get you out of here in the respect.

Yeah, we do want to respect your time.

Yeah. So, thank you so much. Seriously,

for for coming to hang out with us today. It was awesome.

today. It was awesome.

An absolute pleasure.

The first ever 505 pod post pod debrief.

I'm here for it on the couch.

I think this couch from what everyone said, I mean, this this is where we need to be hanging out.

What would you rank this couch on comfiness level?

94. Yeah,

it's up there.

Feels nice.

And I think that this is what we're going to strive for as we build out the new set.

Totally.

We talked to you guys about this. We're

going to Texas. When you listen to this, we'll be in Texas, I believe. So,

I believe. So, yeah. To to film with the three rocks.

yeah. To to film with the three rocks.

We got Guzman, Heidi Summers, Max Tuning. It's going to be really hell

Tuning. It's going to be really hell of a lineup.

Really fun lineup. But we need to talk about this episode.

We sure do.

Okay. I think it was really interesting to hear about how a lot of what started in Seth's career in the very beginning hasn't changed a ton.

No, I think how he thinks about marketing hasn't changed. just the way that people get out their message and promote their product or service has

changed.

Yes. And I think something that we've heard him talk about in TED talks and in his books is this concept of being remarkable and in a sea full of crap is what he was talking about like

everything is so mediocre that what people are putting out the messages they're just sharing the same regurgitated information over and over again. If you are remarkable, you will

again. If you are remarkable, you will cut through the noise and people will share your message for you.

Absolutely.

And I mean, I even think about it with as we were trying to build out our pod, I was like, Kosis, we weren't remarkable obviously to start. We were we were thought we were, but we we were definitely not remarkable.

You talked to Kosis and Fig episode 8.

We had the biggest and best show on the internet.

We were like, this could be this could be number one. Why are we not topping the charts?

Why are we getting 200 views? It doesn't

make any sense.

I think though at the forefront of our brains as we were making the show was always though to try to provide you guys with so much value. Regardless of who it was that we had on, we were trying to extract information to then hopefully

help you build your business, enhance your creativity, and do something that's going to better your life in some way, shape, or form. And I think now that's like that's still working. That's not

like a that's not a new thing. like

people that share great information that impacts you. Like those are the people

impacts you. Like those are the people that I talk about. Those are people that I go share their message and spread their word for them. I think there's a book I read a really long time ago. It

was like it's called like Maven or it maybe was had the topic of this word Maven and it essentially was people spreading your word for you and going out and like you know if I had a great a great show with you guys or if I had a

great hangout session with the two rocks I'm going to go out and tell a friend because I'm like this was so impactful and I really liked this one part from this guest or something like that. And

with anything that you do, the people that are spreading it word of mouth are your strongest people that you need to be thinking about and taking care of. I

even think about Blue Stripe and like my company and the people that come to me and say, "Hey, we chatted with this person." There's no sale that has to

person." There's no sale that has to happen there. I don't have to sell

happen there. I don't have to sell ourselves at all. It's like, "Oh, I know Mike. Mike really liked you guys. Spoke

Mike. Mike really liked you guys. Spoke

very highly of you. We want to do work for you guys." Absolutely. And it's like there there needs to be no nothing needs to be said besides the fact of this is what we do. How can I help you guys? You

know, and it's such a different dynamic than having to go out and be like, "Oh, hey, this do you need stuff? Like, can

we help you?" I also think taking it one step further, every time you guys do a shoot and you guys bring on people, it's kind of an audition to work with you guys again. and the people who are

remarkable at their job and that you guys enjoy working with, you guys are going to call them back. And so at level one, being remarkable, like Seth talked

about, is the best marketing strategy you can have because even regardless of how saturated a market is, if something

comes out that is just the best, there's always room for it. You see content creators popping up all the time or new businesses popping up all the time and their content's just better or their

product's just better and they're marketed in an interesting way and they stand out. They break through the noise.

stand out. They break through the noise.

And I think like you brought up on the podcast, in a world with AI, the last podcast we did was about AI and how so much more content is going to be coming out. I

think at the very start, at at the very basic level, how can you be as remarkable as possible?

And you brought up our podcast when we were first starting out. Our show in our eyes has improved a lot since we first started. And I think that it can be

started. And I think that it can be really daunting when you're first starting to think that that remarkable word kind of freaks you out a little bit. you're

like, "How am I supposed to be number one or the best out there if I'm just getting started?" And I want to remind

getting started?" And I want to remind people listening to this, you get better as you go. And sometimes

we can let perfection get in the way of us even starting in the first place.

Every single person, Seth included, or every every, you know, every business owner or every creator that you look up to started somewhere.

They were all ass.

Exactly. And so, like, we look back at episode one of the show and it's nowhere near what it is today. Um, and so don't

let that word remarkable stop you or scare you from starting in the first place. Start where you are and

continue to improve every single day and you can work up to being remarkable. You

can't be afraid to fail. I love that he shared the story of him getting kicked out of the publishing industry because that shows you someone like him who's had 21 bestsellers has had failures in

his life still. And you might look at Seth who's been doing it for 30, 40 years, and you kind of put him on a pedestal, but you have to remind yourself that, you know, maybe he wasn't

as remarkable as he is today when he was first starting out, but he started somewhere.

I was thinking as you were saying that about LeBron James's uh company, it's like strive for greatness. And I think that's what you got to remind yourself at the very beginning is you are striving for greatness and you're trying

to get better every single time. Like I

remember when we first did the show, that's what we would talk about is like, "Oh, what if we did uh what if we lit it like this or what if we had like this mic setup or what could we do with the cameras?" And even in my agency when we

cameras?" And even in my agency when we do shoots, Reef and I love doing this after and I read this in a book somewhere and I've taken it. I don't

remember what their company did, but after the shoot, we call each other and we were like, "Wow, what did we [ __ ] up and what was exceptional?" And like can we fix any of these things that are

[ __ ] up or some of them we just have to like deal with that and try to figure out ways to work around it. And every

time we do a shoot I think we do get literally like five times better because there is this review process of talking about the entire day. What could the producer have done differently? What

could I have done to know my shots better or what could you have said to the talent that maybe made us not flow or whatever the heck the thing may be.

Having that type of want to get better just makes everything so much better in the grand scheme of things. And like

look at how much our show has 10xed with just overall like everything. I mean now if you're if you're watching these ones from Texas like now we have three camera angles and one of them doesn't shut off

every 30 [ __ ] minutes.

Using a ZV1 is not ideal for a long form podcast.

It is not the vibe and we're trying.

Also, okay, for all my camera people out there, ZVE1, they market it as having the same sensor as an FX3, and it's [ __ ] You know what that is?

Cap. Look at that.

Cap dude.

Dude, [ __ ] cap. Okay,

Cap City.

We've tested it multiple times. The ZV1,

great [ __ ] camera, okay? Does not

produce the same level of image quality as an FX3. It doesn't.

It does not. It doesn't.

So, Sony, stop saying that, okay? we

love you, but you're kind of capping.

Another thing that he talked about was how the size of the audience is totally irrelevant. And we see that with these

irrelevant. And we see that with these huge Tik Tockers or people that, you know, are really big on short form most of the time. It doesn't translate to

in-person and it doesn't translate to YouTube. We see we've seen that time and

YouTube. We see we've seen that time and time again. Like people want to be on a

time again. Like people want to be on a long form place whether it's a podcast whether it's a YouTube channel. They

want you to go over there because we all know like you guys listening we all know this. That is where you want your

this. That is where you want your community to be to be at cuz there's so much more connection that can develop over 20 plus minutes rather than 30 seconds. Like people just forget. And

seconds. Like people just forget. And

think about I mean when you're scrolling we're scrolling for like a consistent period of time. You're not scrolling you're not being like I'm scrolling for 5 minutes right now. You're just kind of mindlessly going through there and maybe you save something, but think about how

much [ __ ] we've all saved.

Yeah.

Do you go back to it real often? Not

super often, right? Like

the amount of recipes I have saved on TikTok is absurd. I think you're right, though. I think he brought up the idea

though. I think he brought up the idea of focusing on false proxies, meaning you're focusing on the wrong metrics.

So, when it comes to social media, you're really focused on how many followers you have or how many likes and views you have when instead you should be really focusing on what's the

conversation like in your comments and are people sharing your stuff, your content with other people. He brought up the fact that marketing is creating

conditions for people to spread the word about your product or service to other people. Word of mouth. I think in a

people. Word of mouth. I think in a digital world where so many of us are on Instagram and social media in general,

the equivalent to that is the share button. So if you can create content or

button. So if you can create content or create a product that people want to share with other people or share on their story or share in the DMs,

that is in my mind the digital equivalent of word of mouth marketing. I

think so, too. And we've seen it with the posts that do well for both of us and and for the pod. If something gets shares, we know it's going to go off. We know

it's going to do super well. If if it's that first 20, 30 minutes and there's not one share, you know, the thing's not going to do super well. And then on top of that, I would argue, okay, me and you

both maybe don't have the most amount of followers compared to other creators out there, or our podcast doesn't have as many subscribers or might not get as many views as the next podcast out

there. But I would argue that if we do

there. But I would argue that if we do an in-person event, people are willing to come out and support us and hang out with us because of the trust that we've

built and being consistent and keeping that promise like he talks about over a consistent and long period of time. And

so that was something that was very interesting just the trust being built with your group. And dude, trust is one of those things that takes 10 years to build and 10 seconds to lose.

Yeah. like you see it time and time again with either a quick cash grab um you know during the I'm not even going to get into it but there there's been a

lot of people that we've noticed in social that have had things happen that they've said or just done one stupid like ridiculously stupid thing and you're like what what was going through you guys not have

anyone to talk to about this dude it's unbelievable yeah it's crazy it's insane when he brought up or when we brought up the fact that he believes authenticity is [ __ ]

This was this was this is really interesting.

So authenticity is [ __ ] and consistency is more important in his eyes.

Now me and Braden were talking before the pod. I go I'm going to call him out cuz

pod. I go I'm going to call him out cuz I think that is ridiculous. I didn't

understand really what he was saying.

Now I have a better understanding and I believe him to be true.

him saying that he's different online or when he's like promoting himself or having a talk. He's

he's a different version of himself.

He's still himself. It's still quote unquote authentic to him.

That's what I was going to say though.

He's still being authentic, but maybe it's just a slightly different version of him. And what he said in rebuttal to that is, I'm not telling you

to be a fraud. I'm telling you to be who you are, who you show up online or in person, and be that person consistently.

The word for that is constancy.

We love this word. Constancy is super important, which is it means keeping the promise, staying consistent. Whatever

message you're saying, saying it consistently over and over over a long period of time. That's what constencancy is. And constancy is what builds trust.

is. And constancy is what builds trust.

And trust is what makes people show up for you in person and want to buy your products.

That is the best I've ever heard you explain what that word is.

Dude, I feel like I'm kind of flowing.

I feel like you got that word down, dude. Yeah. I remember I see that word.

dude. Yeah. I remember I see that word.

I'm like, "What the [ __ ] does constancy mean?"

They spelled consistency wrong.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Uh, what else?

What else we got here? Let's see.

Oh okay.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, go.

We were thinking about this. Um,

obviously you want people to share your stuff and creating conditions for people to share your stuff. Word of mouth is number one. I I don't think there beats

number one. I I don't think there beats anything nothing's more powerful than somebody you [ __ ] with telling you about something that they [ __ ] with and you're

like, "Okay, I got to go check it out."

Whether it's another creator or a product, clothing product, absolutely.

I think as a business who has a physical product, if you're listening to this and a business owner, you can create conditions for people to want to share

your product. So, if you have a clothing

your product. So, if you have a clothing brand, what does the package look like when you send somebody your t-shirt or your pants or your shorts? You're

sending out a PR package to maybe a group of influencers or you're doing a pop-up or you're doing a popup event. Do

you have moments that people can capture and then want to share on their social media and share your message or product for you? And I think yes, you want to be

for you? And I think yes, you want to be remarkable because the the easiest way to have people talk about you is to be [ __ ] great, but from a more tactical

standpoint, I think you can create moments for yourself as a business to have people spread the message for you.

I even think about when we had taken a hiatus, maybe it was after like our first season. When we came back, we had

first season. When we came back, we had posted like a graphic and so many people shared that graphic for us of like we're coming back for season two and tried to build up a little bit of hype around us

just coming back to the show and you guys really did help us. And like you have no idea how many new people probably saw it and was like, "What the heck is this?" And maybe they check it out, maybe they don't, but at least

we're doing our best to create the condition for these ideas or our pod to spread. Um, I think of somebody when we

spread. Um, I think of somebody when we think about this, I think of our good buddy Sam Newton.

Okay, he's got a good amount of subscribers on YouTube.

He makes incredible work when it comes to like the travel film space. He's

remarkable at that. He's able to have 500 people come out and come from all over, not just LA, come from out of town, fly in to come to his film

festival.

And I would argue that there's some other creators who have more subscribers than him that can't pull in that many people to come see them in person

because Sam has done such a great job of being remarkable and staying consistent over a long period of time. And then

another thing that he's talked about like you just brought up is maybe he doesn't post for a week or two or maybe takes a month off cuz he's feeling burnt

out or whatever. his audience is still going to be there for him when he comes back. And that's the scariest thing as a

back. And that's the scariest thing as a creator because we constantly feel like we need to be pumping out content to stay quote unquote relevant and you're on this hamster wheel. But the more

remarkable you are, I think about somebody like Tarantino, right? You

think about these big directors.

They're taking years between creating new films, but because their films are so [ __ ] good,

they're also very they're very unique, too. You go to like Tarantino or

too. You go to like Tarantino or Christopher Nolan's films, and they're different. They're different than all

different. They're different than all the stuff that we get fed on Netflix on on a weekly basis. They have a different look and feel to them. there. You can

tell that there's so much craftsmanship that has gone into making the thing happen and putting it on this big screen in front of us to watch and then you go talk about it to your friends. Like we

we spread the word for them.

I saw Oh my god, who did I see talk about this? Denzel Washington.

this? Denzel Washington.

Okay. Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about.

I believe he gave Michael B. Jordan this

piece of advice where he said you need to give your audience time to miss you.

And you think this only works though for like A-list actors cuz I feel like could you imag Bro if we went away for 2 months no one would give a [ __ ] Yeah.

They'd be like they'd move on to the next thing. But it's an interesting

next thing. But it's an interesting point of like it's an interesting thing for the I feel like for these actors or actresses to not be as public facing cuz it makes you want to like they're in a movie. You're

like, "Oh, I want to go see them."

Yeah, scratch that shitty advice. If

you're making content, stay consistent.

That was probably some of the worst advice you've ever given.

But I think the the thesis of it might be fair.

If you're an actor or an actress, the more remarkable you are, the less maybe super [ __ ] in somebody's face you need to be.

Like if you came out once a month and it was a movie.

Yeah. You'd give you give them you'd give them the grace to to be like you think okay you take somebody like Sam Cer.

That's exactly who I was thinking of.

Sam Cer I mean [ __ ] remarkable YouTuber filmmaker.

Twice a year we get blessed with a little video.

Yeah. or somebody like uh do you watch Andreas Hem?

Yeah. Andreas would go he'd be like guys I'm doing a daily vlog on YouTube and then be gone.

So that's a perfect example of like YouTube creators.

It was a movie every time.

Exactly. So I guess the more time you take between pieces of content, the more [ __ ] remarkable you better be or else people ain't tuning in. The purple cow

theory was something I want to briefly touch on because I had read that book quite a bit of time ago. But

in a sea of sameness, when everyone's zigging, you got to be the rock that zags. You know, you see like

zags. You know, you see like specifically right now cuz I've been on LinkedIn quite a bit and every single Hold on. Wait.

Hold on. Wait.

Huh?

Our dog.

It's empty.

Oh, okay. Thought I thought our dog was good. I've been on LinkedIn quite a bit

good. I've been on LinkedIn quite a bit right now and it's very similar stuff, dude. Like all the stuff feels the exact

dude. Like all the stuff feels the exact same. And I noticed the people that I

same. And I noticed the people that I actually do enjoy like reading some of their posts, they feel very handwritten. They don't

feel like something that is AI generated. And you can tell like you can

generated. And you can tell like you can tell immediately, dude, people don't talk how they talk on LinkedIn. So, I

think that the people that I really enjoy watching are very candid and like they'll have a typo or something. It's

it just feels like a much more human interaction rather than some [ __ ] that's like, "What's up, man? I'm Corporate Ben and I'm here to I'm here to help you learn how to market today."

It's just not the same. Like,

you feel like an accent just comes through when you're typing.

I'm just like, it comes right here. You

know, it it's just a different kind of feel on there.

I get you.

You know what I'm saying?

I get you, brother. I think uh the purple cow theory is is interesting and I totally agree. It's like if you saw a purple cow in a field of a ton of cows, you're going to point out the purple cow

cuz it's different and it's unique. I

also think if the cow was twice the size of the other cows, you're also going to point it out. And I think of that as yo, if your [ __ ] is just so much [ __ ] better than the next guy, if you were

looking for an editor to hire, if you saw an editor and they were just dirty, like they had the sauce, you'd want

them. And it's not necessarily that

them. And it's not necessarily that they're like so unique, they're just so [ __ ] good at what they do, and then they're willing to charge a premium because they're that much better at what

they do.

We were saying this earlier before we started in like in videography and photography and podcasting like those are super saturated niches. Maybe when

we started it wasn't like this like back, you know, 10 years ago. Now it's

super saturated. But I'll still see a random person pop up and I'm like, "This is different. This is totally

is different. This is totally different." And I bet they're booked all

different." And I bet they're booked all the time. And if they're not, give me a

the time. And if they're not, give me a call.

Yeah.

Please.

Absolutely.

Can hire you for stuff.

Yeah. It's so interesting though because the amount of DMs now that I get on LinkedIn and on Instagram that are like, "Hey man, can you check out this edit?"

Like, "I'm an editor." They all suck.

Yeah, they're terrible. They're They're bad.

they're terrible. They're They're bad.

And then every now and then I'll get one where I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] this is so You're you're so talented. It's

unbelievable." Think about how many DMs we get on a daily basis being like, "Hey man, your clips suck. I can make your clips better."

clips better." Every every day we get one of those. And

their clips, guess their clips are dog water.

Yeah. And I'm like, you're telling me that you thought your clip was better than this clip that we that we have?

Come on.

We also just like we just brought on a new clips person, so it's not like the right time. That's

also another thing. I think timing also plays a huge part. Um,

what did you think about the part where Seth was talking about the duping of different products?

That's Yeah, that was something we wanted to bring up. That's really

interesting. So, it's something that Christian Guzman brought up to us in our pre-show call with him, and it's really interesting because there's not really much he can do, but he was just super

frustrated because they're should be illegal. First of all, I think they're using the same content.

I also saw Jacob Owens post about this with Prism Lens Effects. Like, people

are they're using his exact exact photos, bro. That's crazy.

bro. That's crazy.

And I think and they're big ass companies, too.

That's the even crazier part.

I guess it's just it's frustrating cuz there's nothing you can do about it. But

I guess it's just part of the game and maybe the person that was going to buy the knockoff just wasn't your customer in the first place and maybe he just has to go harder on

marketing and becoming even more making the stuff better X Y and Z. You

know what's interesting too? One of my mom's friends used to own a very successful clothing brand and they were they were like a knockoff brand. So they

like a Zara and it sold for tens of millions of dollars. It was it was worth a lot of money.

They would go to like Italy during, you know, during the summer and they would take pictures of what the women were wearing and what was in the designer stores because over in Europe they were ahead they were ahead of America, right?

So they would set the trend and then they'd go knock it off and figure out how to make it for cheaper and bring it back over here.

go into Zara tomorrow.

Yeah, they're they're knocking off all of the biggest brands. Like that is their

biggest brands. Like that is their playbook. Is it right or wrong? It's up

playbook. Is it right or wrong? It's up

for you to decide. That's a that's a topic for another day. But it's

interesting because it's always been a thing. I mean, fashion is the king of it

thing. I mean, fashion is the king of it all, right? All these big players in

all, right? All these big players in fashion, like they do that [ __ ] all the time, bro. If a little brand is on the

time, bro. If a little brand is on the come up, I see this all the time on Twitter, but I think back to the combo that we had with Gary about the Mark Zuckerberg saying, "Oh, I want Facebook

to be a place where, you know, we do everything." And just basically it was

everything." And just basically it was like arbitrage the entire ad agency and put all these [ __ ] out of business.

He's like, "Yeah, [ __ ] do it. You

should do it cuz that's the game."

And Seth talked about it briefly. I wish

we had way more time to talk to him about gamesmanship because he had a whole section in his book, This is Strategy on Games and it kind of is, dude, it's just part of the [ __ ] game. If someone ripped our pod, the 405

game. If someone ripped our pod, the 405 pod, and it was [ __ ] better and they they were more entertaining, dude, kudos to them. We'd have to figure out how to

to them. We'd have to figure out how to iterate. And I feel like the creators

iterate. And I feel like the creators that we've watched that have withtood the test of time cuz, dude, the YouTube YouTube creators are kind of like the NBA guys, man.

They got a little They got a few seasons in them.

True. Four years. 4.4 years is the average for the NB an NBA player. So,

they're not in there very long. And

NFL's even shorter. I think it's like 3 point something. Not for long. NFL not

point something. Not for long. NFL not

for long.

Yeah.

You have to figure out a way to continuously evolve. And think about how

continuously evolve. And think about how we used to not have like an intro on our show. And then you go watch what Dire of

show. And then you go watch what Dire of CEO are doing and all the biggest players in the space. You go, "Oh [ __ ] okay, that's what the tiptop dogs are doing. We need to figure out something

doing. We need to figure out something because we're not keeping people past 30 seconds. Yeah. I also think you brought

seconds. Yeah. I also think you brought up the NFL or you brought up the NBA and LeBron.

I believe LeBron had his highest threepoint percentage either this past season or the year before.

His game has changed so much. He used to be he used to be just dunking all the time and flying around. And then as he got a little bit older, he completely reinvented his game to shoot more

threes. And so I think that is also part

threes. And so I think that is also part of being remarkable is knowing and understanding that what works today might not work tomorrow and having the

ability to adapt. I think that that is the whole thing if you're going to be making stuff online. It's like

what worked for us in 2000 we're in 2025. What worked for us in 2022 on Tik

2025. What worked for us in 2022 on Tik Tok does not work today. It's totally

different. And what might work this year might not work here in the next 6 to 12 months because these platforms are constantly shifting and changing. And

like right now that trend is going on uh where people are saying like it's like two different perspectives and on top it's a photo perspective and on bottom it's like a reframe perspective. That's

going to work for another like day and then it'll it'll change. It'll change to something else. And it's our jobs as

something else. And it's our jobs as creators or as entrepreneurs with our business to always be figuring out how we can change or adapt or you just [ __ ] die and your business closes.

That happens all the time. Businesses

don't adapt and they don't change and they close.

Bringing up Christian Guzman, something that he brought up again is that influencer marketing isn't converting as well as it maybe was in the past. So he

has to change his marketing strategy to go a lot more deep on just like traditional marketing. And that's really

marketing. And that's really interesting. And that's just a that's

interesting. And that's just a that's another perfect that's another perfect example of how what worked in the past might not work today. And you have to be

able to to change and stay up to date with the times. And you also see, you know, creators, like you said, they have seasons. You know, some creators you

seasons. You know, some creators you might be super into. Um, yeah, today and then you might not be in too the next day. I uh I actually I made a video

day. I uh I actually I made a video about this. I thought this was really

about this. I thought this was really interesting. I came across a girl on

interesting. I came across a girl on TikTok, okay?

And she was pretty big. She had about 3 million followers and she had just been acquired her she sold her company. I

don't even know what the company was, but she started off the video saying, "Hey, what's going on? I'm so I just sold my company. I know you guys have

heard this story a million times. It was

my first time seeing her. So, I think another really important point is that there's always a fresh set of eyes and ears to consume your content. And so, be

remarkable, but also don't be afraid to share your story and put yourself out there because you never know who's who's watching.

100%.

Dude, can you believe we're we're going to Texas tomorrow?

Are you packed?

We're we're in Texas. I'm in Texas right now.

I'm in Texas. Texas, I'm in you.

Haven't packed at all.

I haven't packed. We uh I do think we need to go.

We got to go shopping.

Get some drip. Some shorts.

Short drip.

I want to hit I want to hit Kith.

Should we get some cool shorts?

I think so. I think we should drip out.

Oh, there's a Kith right around this corner, isn't it?

Literally right down the street. Have

you had Okay.

Kith treats.

Yeah.

Kith treats. Cookies and cream.

Okay. Might be the best ice cream I've ever had.

It is good. I've had I've had I've had the cookies and cream.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think we do need to go get a little bit of a fit. We're going to get a lift in with with Christian.

That fires me up bomb. Can't believe.

I don't know. I got to text him. He's

like, "It's not happening anymore." I'm

like, "Okay, [ __ ] me."

What time's our pod with him?

I think our pod with him is like 11:00 and then we got like an hour break in between him and Heidi and then we do Max on Friday.

Okay.

Dude, I hit a bomb last night.

Dude, you did. You went [ __ ] bummed, guys. Roll the clip.

guys. Roll the clip.

You have no idea how far I hit this ball, dude. Wooden bat, too.

dude. Wooden bat, too.

Come on.

Like 360.

I feel like I think I could have a chance. Dude,

is there ability to walk on to like a single A team?

That'd be a funny piece of content.

Oh, no. That's what I'm saying. That's

why I would want to do it.

Just show up to spring training.

I like go up to the coach after like, "What did you rank me?" He's like 350.

I'm like, "How many guys are here?" He's

like 340.

Show my show with my bat and glove. What

an insane story arc from from Lakers videographer to podcaster to double baseball player.

Yeah. Something about like crossing over those lines feel different, man. Be like, "Dude, I was once I was the filmer guy." Yeah.

And dude, I would dap up all the camera guys.

Maybe that could be that could be the story arc of the year.

Yeah. Make sure to get my angle right.

Okay. Make sure that shit's in focus.

It's the right side.

I'm going yard right now.

Could you could you switch that into 60 for me?

What's the frame rate? You're going to want this slow down. Okay, this one's going in the dock.

Anyways, God, this is fun. This is a great pod.

If you guys want Okay, the reason, full transparency, the reason we're doing the pod debrief is cuz we only had 45 minutes with Mr. Seth.

If you guys [ __ ] with the pod debriefs, let us know because I feel like we should do these. I feel

like this is a fun 25 to 40 minute little postpod chat.

It also allow if you're OG, you know that we used to do rock talk at the beginning for like 10, 15 minutes, then get into the episodes. This kind of allows us to [ __ ] a little bit.

We can talk about our lives.

Yeah. And it doesn't even have to be 25, 30 minutes. It could be

30 minutes. It could be 60 minutes.

It could be, you know, a 5 to 10 minute debrief. But let us know if you guys

debrief. But let us know if you guys [ __ ] with this and what you guys have been thinking of the episodes as of late.

Dude, be a rock. Share it with a homie.

And we'll see you guys all in Texas.

Come on. Let's go.