How to Create a Successful Mindset: The Science of Passion and Perseverance

to the person who's listening right now.

What could change about their life or

the life of somebody that they care

about if they take to heart everything

that you're about to share with us

today?

If you take to heart what we have

discovered, you will have one thing

which is the possibility of glimpsing

excellence in your own life.

Today on the Mel Robbins podcast, how to

create a successful mindset with

worldrenowned researcher Dr. Angela

Duckworth.

Dr. Dr. Angela Duckworth is a pioneering

researcher, a best-selling author, and a

total powerhouse in the field of human

performance.

Get ready to learn the science of grit,

perseverance, and passion.

Grit is passion and perseverance for

long-term goals. It is correlated zero

with any measure of innate talent. Grit

is working hard at something that you

love. Doing something that you love and

doing it at your greatest effort every

single day. That is what grit is.

If you're listening and there's an area

of your life where you have basically

said, "I've missed the window or I'm too

late or I'm not capable of that."

Professor Duckworth is going to tell you

you're wrong. It is the nature of human

nature to grow. It is the nature of

human nature to make mistakes, royally

screw up, have a lot of regrets, and be

smarter and stronger for the experience.

Hope is the belief that the future can

be better than the past. And it is the

belief that you can in some way make

that come to pass.

Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to

the Mel Robbins podcast.

Hey, it's Mel. My team was showing me

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Thank you for hitting subscribe. All

right, you ready? I bet you are. So,

let's dive in. Angela Duckworth, thank

you. Thank you. Thank you for being

here. I'm so excited to meet you.

No, I think I might be more excited than

you actually. Now, I'm I'm really

thrilled. I feel like we have a similar

mission. Like a little bit of wisdom

make your life a lot better.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. Well, your research has had a huge

impact on my life and your work has as

well. So, here's how I want to start.

Could you speak directly to the person

who's listening right now who has found

the time and made the time to spend it

together with you and me today to learn

from you? What could change about their

life or the life of somebody that they

care about if they take to heart

everything that you're about to share

with us today? If you take to heart what

we have discovered as a science about

motivation and achievement, you will

have one thing which is the possibility

of glimpsing excellence in your own life

to achieve what you are capable of

achieving.

That's a big promise.

It is. You know, hunt the big game like

Yeah. I I really truly believe it. I

think that when I first started as a

psychologist, the question was, you

know, am I only going to study this like

tiny little sliver of the population who

would self-identify as super ambitious?

And I discovered very quickly that

everybody is ambitious. I mean, who

doesn't want to be as great as they can

be? So, I study I think everyone.

I love that answer. I love that answer

because I choose to believe that

everybody wants to do well, that

everybody wants to thrive, you know. So,

Dr. Duckworth, your research is so

fascinating because you have discovered

this thing that all high achievers have

in common. What is it? The common

denominator of high achievers, no matter

what they're achieving, is this special

combination of passion and perseverance

for really longterm goals. And in a

word, it's grit.

And how do you define grit?

It's exactly that. It's these two parts,

right? Passion for long-term goals, like

loving something and staying in love

with it. not kind of wandering off and

doing you know something else and then

something else again and then something

else again but having a a kind of north

star sort of you know a devotion over

years. That's the passion part and then

the perseverance part is well partly

it's hard work right partly it's you

know practicing what you can't yet do

and partly it's resilience. So part of

perseverance is you know on the really

bad days do you you know do you get up

again? So, so if you marry passion for

long-term goals with perseverance for

long-term goals, well, then you have

this quality that I find to be the

common denominator of elite achievers in

every field that I've studied.

So, is this just something you're born

with or is this an actual trait that

anybody can develop?

I think that absolutely anything that

any psychologist tells you is a good

thing to have is partly under your

control. I am not saying there aren't

genes that are at play because every

psychologist will tell you that that's

also part of the story for for

everything and grit included. But but

absolutely, you know, how gritty we are

is very much a function of what we know,

who we're around, and the places we go.

I love that you already taught us

something right out of the gate. I knew

you would. There's going to be a

bazillion takeaways, but just this sense

that it's something that you actually

really enjoy doing and that even that

aspect of grit is something that you

have a lot to teach us about. That even

those of us that feel like we haven't

found our thing, that we're not quite

sure what we should be doing with our

lives, that it is there's very clear

ways to figure it out. And that's part

of the equation that we're going to

learn today. You know, also in your

work, you talk a lot about and I'm sure

we're going to hear the term growth

mindset.

You know, in case the person who's

listening right now has never heard that

term or they're going to share this

episode with somebody who's never heard

that term, what is it and why does it

matter?

Growth mindset is a theory. It's a it's

a theory that you have. You know, you

don't have to be a philosopher or

professor to have a theory because guess

what? All of us have theories. You know,

theories about people. Growth mindset is

a theory about human ability. If you

have a growth mindset, your theory is

that human ability fundamentally is

changeable. If you have a fixed mindset,

you have a different theory. It is a

belief that fundamentally human ability

is fixed. It is something that you can't

change with effort and experience. If

you believe fundamentally that human

ability can change and grow, you look at

that failure, you look at that setback

and you say, "What can I learn here? how

can I get smarter and then you move on.

If you have a fixed mindset

fundamentally you think that the nature

of human nature is that you can't change

or grow well then you avoid failure. You

you know shove things under the rug and

you live your whole life actually

contracting rather than expanding.

Wow. So for the person listening because

I I think when you hear growth mindset

and you hear fixed mindset. So I either

have this fixed belief that I am who I

am and there's nothing I can do to

change. If I'm terrible with money, I'm

always going to be a math person. You

know, you know, like hide me in the

closet. I'm a terrible singer.

Yes. Or athlete.

Yeah. I'm not a natural athlete. I'm

unlucky in love. Like I I have a slow

metabolism. Like all these

I have a hot temper. It's just who I am.

Correct. Yeah. When you say those kinds

of blanket statements, it develops this

fixed mindset that you're just stuck as

you are. And what you're here to say is

no, no, no, no, no. That you are capable

of changing. And a lot of what can help

you change are the things that we're

going to talk about today that you've

discovered in your research. But first,

you you have to entertain the

possibility that change is possible for

you. even though you may have a lot of

evidence when you look in the rearview

mirror and say, "Well, based on my life

history, that's not true for me." So,

what do you want to say to that person

who's like, "Well, I'm not I I I don't

think I can change. It's too late." You

can find the evidence that you look for.

It's what psychologists call

self-fulfilling prophecy. And mindsets

are absolutely this sort of thing. If

you are looking for evidence that you

can't change, if you are looking for

evidence that you're unlucky in love,

that you, you know, will always be

flying off the handle, trust me, you

will find that evidence. But if you are

looking for evidence that you can

change, if you are looking for evidence

that you can grow, sure enough, you will

also find that evidence. And I think

this idea that the mindset that you have

is a self-fulfilling prophecy is the

beginning of understanding how you might

get out of one mindset and into another.

and something that we share with ninth

graders, but honestly I think it's

useful if you're in nth grade or if

you're 99. Um, when we are trying to

open a mind to this idea that human

nature is malleable, we show them

evidence from neuroscience that the

brain is growing. In fact, there's not a

era in your life, doesn't matter how old

you are, where you're not literally

creating new brain cells. And even more

importantly, the connections between

your brain cells, between your neurons

are are remodeling, right? So, um, when

I was in college, I went to college from

1988 to 1992. My major was neurobiology.

What I learned was that the brain is

very very much a work in progress when

you are in preschool,

okay,

and maybe a little bit in elementary

school. And then, you know, things start

to slow down after adolescence. Like now

you are who you are, who you are, who

you are, who you will always be. That is

completely outdated. Now we teach

students in neurobiology and

neuroscience that plasticity is the name

of the game. You know what makes human

beings so special is not that we're born

smart. It's just that we, you know,

become smarter and smarter for, you

know, throughout our whole lives

if you're intentional about it.

If you're intentional, right? I mean,

you know, I I think this kind of

virtuous cycle where, you know, you wake

up every day and you ask like, "How can

I get smarter about this, right?" Like,

wouldn't that be an amazing thing? And

if you if you sort of um you know, pick

your favorite um achiever, right? And it

depends on what you love, you know,

three star Michelin chef or a singer or,

you know, a mathematician or, you know,

a CEO. If you start to notice how they

speak of themselves, they always talk

about themselves as as lifelong

learners. They they say, you know, like

Satia Nadella at Microsoft, I'm not a

know-it-all. I'm a learnit all. I mean,

it's it's there. It's baked into the

language and it's it's in the way they

approach life and it's accessible really

to all of us. Well, I just want to take

a minute as you're spending time with us

and you're listening to Professor

Duckworth right now and just compliment

you for hitting play because the fact

that you chose to find time and spend

time listening to something that you

know you can learn from and that might

make your life a little bit better

proves to me that you are a lifelong

learner. proves to me that you have the

capacity to tap into everything that

we're about to talk about and leverage

it to learn anything you want or to

perform better or be happier, whatever

it is that your goals are. So, Professor

Duckworth, in your research, you study

elite performers. I mean, we're talking

West Point candidates, spelling beef

finalists, athletes. Was there anything

about these high performers that

surprised you? I think the thing that

surprised me most was that when I began

to dig into what it really meant to have

passion and perseverance for long-term

goals, it wasn't the way I thought it

would look. I thought it would look like

intensity and it turned out to be

consistency.

So instead of somebody who has the kind

of, you know, outsiz personality always

and the kind of like, oh my gosh, I'm 11

out of 10. This is amazing. And even

imagine an athlete, right? like you you

go down to um you know some aquatic

center like Bob Bowman you know the

coach from Michael Phelps and more

recently Leyon Marshand right so two of

the best swimmers who's who have ever

lived and if you ask a coach like Bob

what is special about a Michael Phelps

or a Leon Marshand do they give you a 10

out of 10 oh my gosh maybe they give you

11 out of 10 at practice I want to watch

right he has said they don't give me a

10 out of 10 they give me eight out of

10 but if you rack up a lot of eight out

out of tens. If you don't miss any eight

out of tens, if you come every day and

you do your eight out of 10, wow, you

can become really special. So, when I

began to study gritty individuals and I

expected them to be 11 out of 10 on

enthusiasm or 11 out of 10 on effort at

all times, that's not what I found. Like

Bob Bowman, I found that they are

consistent. They don't take days off and

they don't well they do fall off the

horse sometimes. And by the way, they do

cry and they get disappointed and they

doubt themselves, but they get back on.

And I think consistency is really the

heart and soul of grit.

And when you use the word consistency,

uh what I'm now hearing based on what

you just said is that consistency is not

doing it every day in a row. Consistency

is doing it more days than not, or at

least doing it the day after.

Okay.

Okay. So, like Michael Phelps did

actually spend apparently like 10 years

with 365 days a year without taking a

day off for Christmas, without taking a

day off for his birthday or New Year's

or New Year's Eve. That's unusual. And I

think any athletic trainer would tell

you that days off are a good thing. So,

I don't want to say that there's

anything magic about 7 out of 7 or 365

out of 365, but most of us can look at

the project that we're trying to do

and and tell ourselves like this is what

consistency is. Maybe it's five days a

week. I mean, let's take physical

therapy, something I do a lot of um

because I have scoliosis and I've got

lots of orthopedic issues. So I get to

experience um you know behavior change

which is what I study as a scientist

through my own just like personal life

and trying to get so so I have to do my

physical therapy and there's like

different exercises that I have to do

but not all of them are seven days a

week exercises there is a routine

whatever it is that you want to do

whatever consistency means to you write

it down and aim for that and that's what

the goal is but but what I mean by it

not being intensity

is it's not like I'm going to go do my

physical therapy and I'm going to do 11

out of 10 on intensive like I'm going to

kill it. Like no, just do your physical

therapy the way your physical therapist

said you should do it and then do it

again the next day as your physical

therapist and then do it again and then

do it again. That's consistency.

This conversation reminds me a bit of

that famous Jay-Z quote, the genius

thing we did is we didn't quit.

Oh, I didn't know that. Wait, what? I

have not heard that quote.

Yes. And I I do really believe it's you

against you

and that you you started talking about

talent and I want to come back to talent

because so many people believe that

success comes down to talent and your

work really proves otherwise that

there's a different component that is

really important. Can you unpack talent

versus hard work? I'm going to define

talent because it's this word. We use it

in so many ways and this is how I think

we are really defining even if we don't

you know have a dictionary at our side.

Talent is the rate at which you improve

at something when you try. You're a

really talented person you improve a lot

for every hour of practice. If you are a

less talented person, you improve only a

very little bit with every hour of

practice. There is no shame or fear, I

think, in acknowledging that we may be

more talented at some things than

others. I'm pretty talented at

psychology. When I started my PhD at age

32, I was pregnant with my second

daughter. I was still in nursing the

first. And when I would read a

psychology article, I, you know, of

course, knew nothing. I didn't know the

vocabulary. I didn't know where to

start. But when I would read about

motivation, about beliefs, about

mindsets, about practice, I I ascended a

learning curve relatively steeply,

but I'm very very untalented when it

comes to history, when it comes to um

politics, current events. Um I um

terrible. I mean, I teach at the Wharton

School of Business and every year I have

to ask my students again, I'm like,

"Wait, remind me what a hedge fund is

just one more time. and tell me what and

how is it different from private equity?

I'll write it down this time and then

the next year I have to ask again. I'm

not very good at learning some things,

but I am very agile at learning others.

And I think that's really the heart of

what we mean when we say like somebody's

innately talented, right? That

somebody's gifted at basketball or

gifted at soccer or gifted at math or

anything else

and that it's the rate you improve at

something.

I think that's what it to me that's what

that's like the the the gist of what we

really need. That's a nice thing cuz I

normally like would define it as

something deficient of me. You know what

I'm saying? Like I would see talent as

somebody that well I don't know like you

know but that that somebody can step on

a stage and sing a perfect tune and that

in relation to me that somebody can

you see somebody else and you're like oh

my god I'm born that way. Well and of

course your greatest talents are though

me.

Yeah. Um, I think my greatest talent is

probably taking a massive amount of

information and distilling it down like

that into something super simple

and and being able to communicate it

too. Right. Right. And I bet when you

started you didn't know everything you

know now, but my guess is that you

learned fast.

Yeah. I also am really talented at

cooking. I'm talented at like arranging

flower. Like so. So, but I I realize I

had a very limited

definition of talent.

Yeah.

And often times I think that

we look at other people

Yeah.

that are wildly talented, whether it's

in sports or it's in art or music or

business, and we sort of shrug our

shoulders and go, "Oh, well, they were

born with that gift, and

but I'm not.

But I'm not." Yeah. and I could never be

and therefore I'm just not gonna try.

Yeah.

And so I love that there is a

relationship in your definition between

also working because you said it's about

the rate of improving.

Yeah. Say your rate is not what you

would love it to be but it's not that

bad. You're like you know I'm not the

smartest kid in this room. I'm not the

fastest learner in this room. But you

can say as so many people that I have

studied, so many women, so many men, you

will not outwork me. Like give me a

chance. I am going to stay on this

treadmill. I mean, you know, very uh

appropriately uh the Harvard University

study of there's this longitudinal

study. I know you've had Robert Walder

on. It's um you know, broadly it's part

of that work. They like literally put

their participants, they were all men.

This was an old study and at the time

they decided that only men were worthy

of study but they would literally put

them on a treadmill. They called it the

treadmill test and they you know get off

when you want to but see how long you

can stay on and of course they make it

really fast and so it's really hard and

it's really challenging. So there are a

lot of people who are like okay I may

not be the most talented but put me on

that treadmill and watch what I can do

because I will not give up because I

will try harder. So I do think there is

this separation that that you know you

don't have to have a PhD to understand

between talent you know the rate at

which you get better at something when

you try and effort which is okay how

hard and how long are you going to try.

So what do you think the mix is? So when

you look at somebody who's successful

who has both the talent so there's a

level to which they get better at

something or they were naturally

predisposed to something

versus the effort and hard work put in.

What do you think?

So, I think effort counts twice. Sure,

talent counts, but I think effort counts

twice. To me, skill is kind of barren

unless you apply it, right? So, what are

you going to do with your skill? Well,

you need effort to sort of unlock your

skill and turn it into actual

achievement. And so, when you write it

all down and if you want, there's like

math behind it. But to me, of course,

talent figures into the equation, but

effort counts twice because one, it

unlocks that talent and turns it into

skill. And it unlocks that skill and

turns it into actual tangible

achievements.

Dr. Duckworth, you say that based on the

research that there are four things that

make up grit. And I want to take them

one by one and really unpack them. And

let's start with the first one which is

interest. What does that mean?

So when you look at people who are great

at what they do, and it actually doesn't

have to be that they're a you know a

physicist. This is true of athletes.

This is true of you know musicians,

chefs, you know, anybody who becomes

great at what they do. there's curiosity

right their mind comes to this subject

and wants to stay there right and when

you look at children and you ask

yourself whatever age you are you could

see like where is this mind going right

I mean there are people who say oh I'm

not intellectual oh I'm not really smart

when you start talking about something

that you really care about you are a

genius because that is where your mind

lives so that is the first psychological

asset and it happens you know usually

Well, we hope in in childhood um uh

meaning you do have to be exposed to

things. I think great parenting, a lot

of it is noticing what your young person

is thinking about. Um when my daughter

Lucy was growing up, I will tell you

that this child was not obviously a hard

worker. She was easily discouraged. she

really hated doing homework or

practicing her, you know, viola. Um, but

when I would get the iPad after she, you

know, had, you know, run off with it,

all of the tabs were open to baking

videos, right? Like unicorn cookies and

like chocolate chocolate cupcakes. And

on Monday, Lucy would be telling me what

she was going to bake on Saturday. She

would pull my cookbooks off the shelf

and start reading them, you know, well

before you usually do that kind of

thing. One day I said to her, I was

like, "Lucy, I think you're interested

in cooking." And she looked at me like I

was, you know, from planet Mars. I was

like, "Oh, what do you mean?" I was

like, "What do you mean? What do I

mean?" So, I will say the first stage of

grit is interest. and you don't always

even know that you're interested in

something until a passer by or a loved

one says, "Hey, by the way, you spend a

lot of time thinking about X, Y, or Z."

So, that is the first psychological

asset of grid. I don't believe that you

can grow passion without the seed of of

interest. And I I genuinely believe that

though we may not all be equal in IQ,

though we may have different talents,

that that when we begin to notice where

our mind lives, when we begin to notice

what attracts our attention

spontaneously, that is the beginning of

discovering the interests that can make

us something of a genius about about

what we do. I'm so glad we're starting

with interest because

if you're listening right now and you're

not really sure what you're interested

in, which I think a lot of people have

that experience. In fact, in your book,

you address this. You write about a

Reddit post and I want to read this

because I personally think if you don't

relate to this, what this person wrote

on Reddit, you are related to somebody

who is living this right now. I'm in my

early 30s and I have no idea what to do

with myself career-wise. All my life,

I've been one of those people who has

been told how smart I am, how much

potential I have. I'm interested in so

much stuff that I'm paralyzed to try

anything. It seems like every job

requires a specialized certificate or

designation that requires long-term time

and financial investment before you can

even try the job, which is a bit of a

drag. What do I do? I don't know what

I'm interested in. Dr. Duckworth, what

do I do?

I have collected data on, I don't know,

tens of thousands, maybe 50 thou, maybe

a hundred thousand people. I can tell

you, Mel, that when I study passion and

perseverance for long-term goals, and I

can give you a subcore on my

questionnaire for passion, which is, you

know, this consistency of interest over

time, but really an abiding kind of

love, and perseverance, which is

resilience, you know, I want to do the

practice. I want to do the hard work.

Reliably, people score higher in

perseverance than they do for passion. I

think discovering and developing

interests is a lot harder than it

sounds, right? It sounds like the hard

part is the work. No, no, no. Figuring

out the direction is for most people,

including myself, like the real

torturous part. So, one of the things

that you should know about interest is

that it is in some ways voluntary, but

it is in some ways involuntary. Like you

cannot force yourself to be interested

in things. Well, anyone's who's a parent

knows you can't force and and everyone

well anyone who's a human being has has

had a parent try to force them to

absolutely do something they're not kids

playing piano and violin like how many

of them are actually interested in it

like

it's true

very few rights really foolish

but what questions should you ask

yourself if you're not sure what you're

interested in

I want to say something really

provocative I think maybe instead of

asking yourself another question you

should just go and do something, right?

Like my Pilates teacher would say like,

"Don't think it, just do it. Don't think

it, just do it. Stop writing in a

journal. Stop asking yourself questions.

Like literally go out and do something."

You know, interests are like food. You

got to taste it to know whether you like

it or not. And that to me is the number

one mistake I see people making. They

like think about it and they think about

it and then they want to talk to their

friends about it or okay, there's a

limited amount of good that that does.

But one of the things about interest is

they they really do emerge from

experience and you can't predict. I

remember teaching these three triplets,

these um you know adorable uh boys and

they were all very fine students and you

know like so many young adults they were

like thinking about what they were going

to do with their career. But all it took

was one summer internship to be sitting

behind a desk in a terminal and to

realize like I am going to go crazy.

Why? Because I don't like sitting down

this much. Well, you probably can rule

out the job that you just interned for,

right? And now that person became like a

fitness instructor. So, how would he

know that? No amount of journaling, no

amount of reflecting and no amount of

conversing with friends is going to

substitute for one hour of actual

experience. So in science, the science

of interest, the science of motivation,

we call this sampling. Okay?

So before you specialize in being a an

author or podcast host or a psychologist

like me, you have to sample broadly. So

the paradox of of specialization is that

it's preceded by a breadth of sampling.

So before you become a you know jack of

one trade you know to some extent you

have to try a lot of trades right and

and so with children what you see you

know very wise and and certainly very

privileged parents right because it

sometimes costs money to do this you

know they're cycling their kids through

a variety of pursuits so they can sample

so they can taste things and spit them

out if they don't like them you know my

daughter Lucy the one who I mentioned

with great fondness uh uh was not

prodigiously gri, you know, gritty when

she was growing up. We cycled her

through uh ballet, through pottery. She

did track one year. She um played the

viola. I mean, one thing after the

other. We had in our family the hard

thing rule. Families have their rules.

We in the Duckworth family raised our

kids by the hard thing rule. It had

three parts and it was all really about

the philosophy of interest and sampling.

So the first part was well it has to be

something that requires your hard thing

because everyone has to do the hard

thing right so you can choose a hard

thing but the hard thing has to have an

element of deliberate practice so it has

to have goals and you know effort to end

feedback okay so viola counted right but

like that little studio down the street

where you basically just ate goldfish

crackers and like hung out like that

that doesn't count because there are no

goals no effort there's no feedback okay

that was rule part one. The second part

was you were not allowed to quit in the

middle. So when Lucy came home from her

very first track meet,

she actually came up to the bleachers

and she was like, "Mom,

I don't want to run track anymore." And

I was like, "Okay, you don't have to run

track anymore. You only have eight more

weeks to go." So we did not let our kids

quit in the middle of a commitment.

We're like, "You are duckworth. We

finish what we begin."

But the third part was all about

sampling. The third part said that

nobody gets to choose your hard thing

but you and we never chose any of the

hard things for our two daughters. Jason

and I said, you know, life is a multiple

choice. It's not quite film. She she

wanted to do horseback riding and we

were like, we are not that rich and we

don't live near horses. So, there was

some, you know, reality to the

childhoods that they lived, but they we

really tried to let them sample as many

things as possible. And you know, I knew

as a psychologist at the time, you know,

getting my PhD and so forth, I knew that

that was our only prayer for this girl

to be gritty is that we absolutely had

to find something that interested in

her. If you're an adult listening to

this and you're recognizing that you've

spent decades of your life grinding away

at things that you're not interested in,

is there advice that you have, Dr. duck

work on how you internally figure out

and and lean into what you're actually

authentically interested in because I

always heard the word grit and

immediately assume suffering and

grinding it out

doing things that are hard and terrible.

Yes. And instead the first thing begins

with things that you're actually

interested in because if you're

interested in it, you're going to lean

into it more. when I teach a CL I teach

a class at um at the University of

Pennsylvania as a little uh Ivy League

school in Philadelphia and the first

section of this class which is called

grit lab the whole class is called grit

lab the first section of the course it's

on the flow state it's on interest it's

on values it's called choose easy and I

tell my students you will never be great

in life at something where it is the

hardest thing of all the things in the

life menu that you could pick choose the

easiest one. Choose the one that you

want to think about. Choose the one that

you're good at. Like choose easy. And

then the second part of the course is

work hard. Sometimes I call it work

smart. So fine, choose easy is the

entree. Yes, there is a second section

where you have to work. But my goodness,

you're never, you know this, Mel, like

people make this mistake all the time.

they don't take into account what their

interests and their energy and their,

you know, be at a place where you are at

your best. Start there.

Why do you think we stack the deck so

hard against our you know what I'm

saying? Like because such a good

question.

Well, because I love that you're

starting a course at UPEN on grit

by teaching people to choose something

that comes easy.

Yeah. Not intuitive, right?

Why is it intuitive? Is your is Such a

good question. I I think perhaps we have

confused, you know, the two stages,

right? So, you know, um there is this

stage in which you are in the middle of

practice. I mean, you've written, I've

written. Is there anything harder than

writing? No. It's like, you know,

obviously you could just, you know, go

and like watch a cooking show on

YouTube, right? Like that would be to me

a lot more fun in the moment than like

really working on this paragraph or

figuring out the structure of a of a

chapter. So there is an element of hard

work that is, you know, part and parcel

of excellence. But I think we get

confused because we're like, "Oh, I

guess that's the whole thing." No, no,

no. The first thing to do is choose

easy. Then, you know, work as hard as

you can, but but I think we we just push

them together. I think that to me is my

best guess. I mean don't have any data

on this but it's just my my instinct

that we or my intuition that we we we

get a little confused because to you

know to us it's all one thing um when

it's really two stages.

I agree. I actually agree. I I think

it's such an interest that

well it's a really interesting insight

because I think there's probably a lot

of people that that chose the wrong

thing by mistake.

Yes.

And then spend decades

they chose suffering.

Yes.

I got a call from a Mackenzie

consultant. I'll never forget this. This

is Oh my gosh, Mel. God, at least 10

years ago, 15, could be 20. This

Mackenzie consultant from San Francisco

calls me and I guess it was, you know,

at a time where I wasn't getting that

many calls, I just answered, you know,

like uh he said, "I am very successful.

I've been promoted. Everybody thinks I'm

great. I I don't know what to do next."

And we get into this conversation and

it's very clear to me as he basically

summarizes later in the conversation

that he has never made a decision in his

life based on what was easy for him,

what was enjoyable for him, what gave

him energy, what made him feel alive. He

said, "I had a rule. More suffering,

better, harder, better." Right? And so I

did tell him the same thing that I tell

to my students. I'm like, "Oh, two

stages." Yeah, work hard, but first

choose easy.

I think if you were to dig into this as

a research project, you would probably

trace it back to the pressure that kids

feel

to do what their parents want them to do

because conforming in the moment feels

easier. And if that's all that you've

ever done,

then that becomes the default. Well,

there is I'm sure um uh you know many

people have heard and I know you know a

lot about this intrinsic versus

exttrinsic motivation

um distinction right and one of the

things that you know has emerged it's a

really um I think it's a very important

research literature goes back at least

50 years one of the stages in which our

motivation evolves to be intrinsic is is

is a stage where you are internalizing

the motivations of others around you

right So if you have parents who play a

lot of tennis, you know, you may start

playing tennis and at some point it

becomes internal to you and then you're

45 years old and you want to go play

tennis and and that is actually a

healthy thing that many intrinsic

motivations begin outside of us.

Yes.

But when they get stuck in between, it's

called introjection. It's fancy little,

you know, whatever. It's just jargon.

But when it gets stuck, it's like your

parents want you to go to medical

school, but it doesn't become fully

internalized and you never really want

to go to medical school and it gets

stuck at the should stage. It's like I

should go to medical school. I should

take organic chemistry. I should go for

a run. I should lose 5 pounds. I should

eat a salad. That is not a good stage

because it's kind of got one foot in

intrinsic, one foot in exttrinsic. and

we're driven forward in a way that is

extremely exhausting and feels untrue to

our authentic selves.

I think that's where most most people

are. So if you're somebody who the

second you said make the easier choice.

Yeah. You viscerally were like no

or you're like how do you even do that?

Yeah. I don't have that

because I'm constantly thinking about

the choice that would please my parents

or that would please my partner that

would look good for my friends.

Yeah. like is there anything that you

would say about what does that even

mean? Because I think that's a

completely different way to go about

life. I mean, if I can only share from

my personal experience because I found

it a struggle of my own and I I don't

know whether it's because, you know, I

was raised by a wonderful mother, but a

but a Chinese mother who herself was

born and raised in China

and she was raised to um submit all of

her own desires and dreams to her

husbands. Um her mother laid her hands

on her shoulders one day and said, "You

are ready to be a wife." And when I

graduated from Harvard, the day of my

graduation, my mother laid her hands on

my shoulders and she said, "I'm so proud

of you. You are ready to be a wife."

So, what did I, you know, then progress

to do? Well, by the way, I have a growth

mindset and so does my mom. And that was

now 33 years ago. And we have both grown

a lot. Um, I have developed into a woman

who believes that if I only do things

for other people, I will never do things

well enough for those people.

I took so long to learn this. I have a

therapist named D. And in a conversation

that is not older than seven days, Mel.

So this is you know a constant journey

or it's a you know constant um practice

of mine to just try to remind myself

because it goes so deep with me. She

said Angela I think we should ban the

word should.

I said what do you mean? She said I I

think whenever because I was telling her

about a particular you know task that I

was about to shoulder and I was using

the word should. I was like, I should

take care of this problem. And she said,

I I wonder whether you can answer the

question why you're doing that without

the word should. So, of course, the

academic in me comes out and I'm like,

well, you know, we have all these should

emotions like shame and embarrassment

for a reason, D. You know, otherwise, we

wouldn't have morals and ethics. Like,

should is a good word.

You'd be a pain in the ass as a client.

She thinks I think too much. I think

she's like, "Oh, there you go again."

And and when I came to think about it

over the next few days after that

conversation with D, I tried to answer

every question where I was about to

say,"Well, because I should do it,

right? Because I should go to Pilates,

you know, because I should go buy the

groceries on the way home because I

should have a conversation with this

student." I just asked myself a

different question. I said, "Can I can I

can I talk about this without this

word?" And, you know, to my amazement,

words came out in almost every case. I

want to help this young person. I see

myself in this young person. I can see a

future that this person doesn't yet see.

I want to is entirely different than I

should. And I wrote D an email not more

than a few day, I think three days ago.

I said, D, I just wanted to let you know

I think you're right about the word

should. I don't think living our lives

in service to other people's um desires

in that way does anybody a service.

That's not by the way what scientists

mean by beyond the self-purpose like

shouldering all of these you know

burdens and adopting other people's

goals in a way that feels inauthentic to

ourselves. So yeah, let's see how many

minutes or hours we can go in our, you

know, next 24 hours without saying the

word show even once.

I love that. Did you hear that? I want

to make sure you heard the assignment

from Dr. Duckworth. Class is in session.

Let's talk about the second part of

grit, which is practice.

Now you're interested, of course, but

you have a second motivation on top of

that, and that is the desire to improve.

So it's usually not until you are in

adolescence, sometimes late adolescence

and sometimes u early adulthood uh that

you want to get better at something in a

skill development kind of way. And so

that's when you need usually a coach.

That's when you need to do have you've

you've heard of 10,000 hours of

deliberate practice.

I have. But for the person who's

listening who doesn't know the 10,000

hour rule just explain it back of the

hand here.

I cannot tell you how excited I am to

tell you about deliberate practice. this

the 10,000 hour rule because I think so

many people have heard it very few

people have heard it correctly. So what

is the 10,000 hour rule? Anders Ericson

was a truly great cognitive scientist.

He studied Sudoku players who were at

the top of their game. He studied um

chess masters, grand uh master chess

players. He studied prima ballerinas. He

studied World Cup soccer players. He was

the world expert on world experts. And

in one of his early studies, he found

that the very best violinists at a music

academy in Germany had about 10,000

hours of a certain highquality practice

that he later called deliberate

practice. The next group at this music

academy, they weren't as good. They had

like something like, you know, 7,500

hours of and then maybe the next group

was like 5,000 hours. There were

differences in the quantity of practice.

And it became this very popular term

that you got to do 10,000 hours of

practice if you want to become great at

what you do. But Anders who passed away

5 years ago to his dying day wanted the

world to know that it's not just the

quantity of practice. It was the quality

of what those musicians were doing. Not

just quantity but quality. So when I

talk about this second stage in the

evolution of paragon of grit and by the

way Andre and I did a lot of research

together what we found was that this

kind of high quality practice where you

have a goal usually something that

you're weak at. You completely

concentrate on trying to get better at

it. You have like a mental picture of

what you want to do but you can't do it

yet. And then you try really hard

mentally or physically depending on what

you are trying to do. And then you get

feedback on what you did well, maybe

what you didn't do quite as well as you

need to learn. That's the that's that's

the that's the part that stings. That's

the hard part, right? You know, like the

really hard because your ego is,

you know, screaming and then you do it

over and over again. That's the high

quality practice when when you look at

the thousands of hours of practice that

a lot of us do, including myself. Like

when I met Anders, I was like, "Wait, I

don't know if I believe this." because

I've been running like you know if I

tabulate all the hours I had jogged in

my life I was like I should be Usain

Bolt and he was like well do you have a

goal and I was like never he was like do

you practice with complete effort and

concentration like I'm like when I'm

running no I'm listening to podcasts and

then he said do you get immediate

feedback on things that you could

improve before you go out for your next

run and I was like are you kidding who

would give me that so I was doing low

quality practice so the 10,000 hour rule

is this. If you want to become great at

what you do, you have to do thousands of

hours. Maybe not the exact number

10,000, but yes, thousands of hours of

the highest quality practice that you

can do. And what Andre and I found

together is that when you are really

passionate and persevering about a

long-term goal, you are the sort of

person who puts in more of those high

quality hours. And in listening to you,

it also sounds like there are three

things that determine what makes up high

quality hours. And in the words, you use

the words deliberate practice, that

you're doing the thing with a goal in

mind,

that you are giving it your all, and

that you get immediate feedback

afterwards.

Exactly. Right. I mean, it's so simple,

isn't it? Like Mel, it's free.

Sounds painful, honestly.

Okay. It's painful. It's painful, but

there's no patent. like you don't have

to pay anybody, right? I mean, I'm

joking. It's psychologically costly, but

you know, it's financially available to

all of us.

Well, I love how honest you are when you

basically said, "I've I I've basically

jogged for 10,000 hours, so why am I not

winning the Olympics?" And

you also admit, well, I don't really

have a goal. I'm out there doing this

thing, and maybe the goal is hard and

I'm not trying that hard. And then I

don't really take any feedback at all.

Not for my watch. Not yet. Zero. Cuz I'm

not wearing a watch. But if you really

look at it, if you want to get better at

some something, there's the three-part

formula. You got to put in the hours,

you got to have a goal, you got to put

in the effort, and then ask for

feedback. And if you do that, you're now

applying the research. And if you look

at anybody that's that's amazing at

anything, that's what they're doing. In

fact, when we were preparing for this

episode, uh, Professor Duckworth, as we

were talking about the 10,000 hour rule

and deliberate practice, we all kind of

looked at each other and said, that's

kind of how we approach this podcast

because we're constantly asking

ourselves, how do we make this better?

How do we make this better? As soon as

this interview is done, we all go into a

room and we give each other feedback

about what just happened.

I spoke to Bodilair on your team before

we had this conversation. and he said,

"Oh, you know, I I know you may prefer

to be addressed as Angela or Angie.

That's, you know, what my husband calls

me. That's what my mom called." I'm

like, "We're going to call you Dr.

Duckworth." I said, "Sure, you can call

me anything you want. Why? Why is that?"

He said, "Well, you know, we learn,

right? And we have learned that, you

know, it we don't want to have that

pattern where women are addressed by

their first name, men are addressed by

their salutation." I was like,

"Amazing." So, exactly right. I think

this three-part formula is true if

you're an individual, but it's also true

if you're an organization, right? Got to

have a goal, got to try, and you got to

learn from feedback.

I would love to talk a little bit about

the importance of being able to do

something that you're bad at.

You know, you may be there's a lot of

people that are very interested in

starting a YouTube channel or writing a

book or, you know, marketing their

business online or they're interested

in, you know, something that is going to

require them to go through that really

cringy period, you know, and the

embarrassment and the shame. And I'd

love to have you share a little bit

about how we can learn how to do that.

And I want to read to you from your mega

bestseller, Grit. This is on page uh

141. It's in the section on practice.

And you're writing about these

psychologists who devoted their careers

to studying how children learn ag and

agree that learning from mistakes is

something that babies and toddlers don't

mind at all. You watch a baby struggle

to sit up or a toddler learn to walk,

you'll see one error after another,

failure after failure, a lot of

challenge, exceeding skill, a lot of

concentration, a lot of feedback, a lot

of learning. Emotionally, well, they're

too young to ask. That's true. Because

you never see a toddler fall over and

go, "Well, I'll just lay here for the

rest of my life. I've failed."

And they don't feel shame. You know,

it's pretty obvious. They're not

embarrassed,

right? But then something changes

around the time children enter

kindergarten. They begin to notice that

their mistakes inspire certain reactions

in grown-ups. What do we do? We frown.

Our cheeks flush a bit. We rush over to

our little ones to point out that

they've done something wrong. And what's

the lesson we're teaching?

Embarrassment, fear, and shame. What I

got from this section of the book is

that we're actually wired to try and to

learn and to grow and not judge

ourselves. But this kind of cringe,

embarrassment, shame thing that we do to

ourselves is something that we've been

taught. Can you unpack that for us?

Those two psychologists are um two

wonderful women um Elena and Deborah and

they were disciples of a psychologist

that I don't think a lot of people have

heard of but it's a real shame uh Lev

Vigotssky. uh he was a Russian

psychologist and one of the great

developmental psychologists in history

and Lev spend a lot of time observing

young children and he found that for

example young children learn in play

right they try things that they can't do

they pretend to do things like be a

doctor or you know to be a mom or to you

know do things that they are not and

then they of course can't do them and

they do them very awkwardly and clumsily

and they fall down they spill things,

they break things. And I think this

insight that this native desire to

learn, this native desire to experiment,

this complete, um, you know, lack of

self-consciousness when it comes to

screwing up, um, missing the mark is it

is in in all of us because we were all

babies. I mean, you were that young,

innocent, hopeful child. And you know,

when you ask Elena and Deborah about

this hypothesis that like maybe when

you're five and you start to, you know,

go to school and you see the facial

expressions of your teachers and the

disappointment and of course your

classmates and so forth, you know, they

will tell you that this is a little bit

more of their speculation than, you

know, mountains of hard data. But

clearly self-consciousness is something

that you are not born with, but you

acquire. So is it kindergarten? Is it,

you know, something else that's

happening around the same time? Um,

whatever it is, I think the lesson for

us is to try to recover something of

that, you know, um, you know, the this

the beginner's mind it's sometimes

called, right? It's like the gift of

just being a complete rookie and and to

be unself-conscious. And I speak as

somebody who like wishes she had that

all the time. Um, I think I've gotten

better at it. But I remember going to a

hip-hop class, Mel. I was um uh I was in

my 20s. I was living in New York City

and I was it was like the brief chapter

in my life when I was a management

consultant and um one of my co-workers,

Linda, said, "Let's go to this hiphop

class after work." And I was like,

"Sure, what's that?" And so we show up

and maybe this is a New York thing, but

like oh my gosh, everybody there was

like from the Joffrey Ballet. I mean

like the teacher would call out these

moves like 16 moves. She like go and

then you would like all go individually

from one corner to the of the room to

the next and I was like what is

happening? I felt so self-conscious, so

embarrassed, so awkward, so clumsy and I

never went to another hip-hop class. And

if I had really um you know tried to I

guess you know channel the little kid

that I used to be like who cares? like

of course you don't know how to do

hip-hop. It's not something you ever

learned before. There's no

embarrassment. So I I do try to remember

that. I try to model that, you know, um

because I do think it is something that

though acquired is is now our second

nature, right? Like who among us wants

to like have the spinach in their teeth,

right? like you know we all want things

to be great and so that is an impediment

to to learning if we will not take those

risks and and not be awkward and not go

through the cringe period.

You know in our family we talk a lot

about putting in the reps um just going

and showing up every day and doing the

boring grueling stuff and giving up your

timeline.

But we've talked about deliberate

practice. Is there some tough love you

can give yourself if you're doing the

reps, stuff's not progressing, you're

starting to get frustrated, you have

been consistent, but by God, this isn't

working, Professor Duckworth. Like, how

do I have an honest conversation with

myself and potentially call myself out?

Because there's that work

that is the work that's easy. Yeah. You

know what I'm saying? Like, you know,

how many of us really love the

preparation work, like the buying the

new journal, the getting ready to do the

thing, the organizing ahead, the new

pen, all that stuff, the new baskets.

But now you're like day 179 and you're

like uh

I haven't written a word.

Yes. So, how like how do you call

yourself out? Because I do think that

there's a lot of people, myself

included, that show up that are 0 to 10,

a three in terms of the effort putting

in.

How do you have that honest conversation

with yourself so that we can tap into

this research around deliver practice?

Three is not as much of a problem as

zero. I really do think I mean if it's

physical therapy, if it's you know um

you know becoming a novelist or I really

think if you put in anything right like

the what happens to most people is that

whatever their number is they're putting

in a 10, they're putting in an eigh

whatever their number is it goes to zero

and that is the real problem right they

they're out of the game and I and I

really mean that when Bob Bowman I'm a

little bit obsessed with Bob Bowman and

his um coaching he was the coach of uh

Bob Bowman was the coach with Michael

Phelps and um Leon Marshand, you know,

when when he when he talks to his

swimmers, he says like, you know, every

swim practice is like putting a deposit

in the bank. Sometimes you get to put in

a dollar, sometimes you get to put in

10, maybe rarely get a $100, sometimes

it's 10 cents, but guess what?

Every deposit you make, you get to

withdraw when it comes to competition.

And I do think that Mel, even if you're

like, well, I only put in a three today.

All right, but it wasn't a zero, right?

Like truly. So that is one thing I will

just say that people have this

misunderstanding that it has to be a 10,

it has to be an look, if Michael Phelps

is putting in an eight and he is Michael

Phelps and like give yourself a break.

If you're putting in a three, maybe

you're tired like

Well, what's that famous quote that if

all you can give if all you have to give

is 30%, you give 30% today, you just

gave 100% of what you had to give.

Oh, I love that. I have not heard that

quote, but now I have. Okay, so first of

all, I would give ourselves permission

to say like, you know what, that's what

I could do today. Um, the second thing I

would say is rather than having a

conversation with yourself, I would have

a conversation with another person. And

I really mean that. Here's here's what I

mean. So much of the sort of footage of,

you know, high achievers and and even

when you look at them behind the scenes

and you like, you know, oh, the hours

that they practice, they look like

they're doing it on their own. And to

some extent, that's true. In fact, when

you do that high quality deliberate

practice, it is more typically done

alone than it is in the presence of

another person, including a coach. It's

not like your coach stands there the

whole time where you're concentrating

and trying to achieve your goals. But

what I mean by talk to another person is

this. Whether it is a teammate or a

mentor or a coach, rather than having

the conversation with yourself about

your plateau and your lack of motivation

and are you on the wrong track and maybe

you're going in the wrong d have the

conversation with another human being. a

teammate can say to you, well, what I've

noticed is a mentor or a coach can say,

in my experience, what I've found is it

is something that, and I know you um

have spoken to the psychologist Ethan

Cross, and he is one of my favorite

humans and a

a very good friend.

Um this idea of psychological distance,

right? You are trying to have a little

distance on your problem so you can

think about it objectively. I mean,

maybe you are in a rut and maybe you

should be doing something differently or

maybe you're overtraining or maybe

there's something you could try that you

haven't tried. If you try to create some

psychological distance yourself, you can

partially succeed. You can say, Mel,

what's the problem to yourself in the

mirror? I can say to myself in the

mirror, Angela, what do what do I think

is going on right now? How can this

problem be solved? But wouldn't it be

better if I went to my husband Jason or

my colleague Katie or my friend Ethan or

my mentor Carol because they have actual

psychological distance because they are

not me. So I think one of the mistakes

people make when they are feeling

exhausted when they are on the verge of

burnout is they they dig deeper and they

look inward and almost always you are

much better off looking outward.

I love that. So, that's the second

assignment from Dr. Duck. There's a lot

of homework

that you should go talk to somebody. You

know who you shouldn't talk to is your

mother. Because when you're in that

psychological state, no matter what your

mother says, even if she's right, even

if it's the best thing you could hear,

it's going to be annoying to you.

You can talk to somebody else's mother.

Yeah. Yeah. That that that works.

Yes. As two moms, we know.

Yes. I've been I've been told that that

that everything I'm saying is extremely

unhelpful.

Yes. Exactly. In your research, the

third part of grit is purpose. How do

you define purpose?

When we say that, we mean that you feel

like you are part of and in service to

something that is larger than yourself.

I think all of us want to be helpful. I

think we would rather help than be

helped. Honestly, we have lost, you

know, our connection and our

responsibility to others. And I think

that's what's happening today. I think

we want to, but it's not obvious to us.

And so, that to me is, you know,

something not only to remind ourselves

of, but to um, you know, try to get some

traction on because I don't think people

need preaching. I think they just need

to find little things that they can do

to get started. Um, you know, my husband

said the other day like, "Go get me a a

bag," you know, like one of those like

little shopping bags. Um, because he had

five extra minutes and he just like

picked up the trash on our block. I

mean, that was just, you know, is it

great for the block? Sure. But it was

even better for Jason Duckworth, right?

So, just like these little little things

of, you know, I'm a small part, this is

a big part. What can I do to be helpful?

So if purpose is having this sense of

responsibility and the acting with the

intention of helping others, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Um,

exactly.

What's one question that someone can ask

themselves to help them start to see a

sense of purpose because this is one of

the pillars of being somebody with grit.

There is a research study that asked

this question um in the form of an

intervention and it was run by David

Joerger who David Joerger at UT Austin

is actually a protege of his mentor

Carol Dwek. So it's all you know full

circle and um the the question that he

posed to teenagers in the study is like

what's something that really annoys you

like what is a problem in the world that

really makes you mad? um write about it,

right? And that was the treatment

condition and there was a control

condition where you wrote about

something else and it was a purpose

intervention because that is an opening

question to a problem that maybe you

want to work on because we can't all

work on everything, right? So, one

person might really care about the

environment. Another person might be um

really angry at the litter they see in

their neighborhood. That would be my

husband. Um, uh, another person might

think of, you know, um, uh, you know,

they don't like the way women are

treated and they've experienced

something, you know, in their own lives

that really motivates them. I think

everybody can answer that question. You

know, what is a thing that really

irritates you, angers you, outrages you,

write about it. I think that is not the

obvious entree into purpose, but I think

it is a wonderful doorway into what is

in your heart. that hurts. You know what

what do you think ought to be different?

It's the first step to saying, "Hey,

maybe I can make that difference."

You know, I want to give a quick example

and then I want to dig deeper into

purpose in your job because so many

people don't feel connected to what

they're doing. But so many something

that brings me a lot of energy and that

I'm super interested in is gardening,

flowers in particular. Okay.

And I had heard

there are many beautiful flowers here by

the way.

We always have fresh fresh flowers in

the studio.

I asked you if it was a special occasion

and you said

it is. You're here.

You're here, Dr. Duckworth.

Life,

but so it just naturally brings me

alive. My kids tease me because we can

walk through a city park. I can name

every flower. I can talk about it. I'm

just super interested in it. There we

go.

There you go. And I heard about a woman

in our community who had gotten very

sick and she's a a flower farmer

and I organized a bunch of friends to go

help her while she was in the hospital.

Yeah.

And it gave me a deep sense of meaning

and purpose. And so that's an example

not in career of how you can infuse

daytoday life with things that you're

interested in and then also find ways to

make it part of purposeful living just

like your husband who's like wait a

minute I it bothers me that there's

trash on my walk and I'm glad you shared

that because the last time I walked the

loop by my house I noticed an uptick in

trash and I thought I there's a lot of

trash going

but but I I immediately thought this

will give you this will probably make me

look like a bad person, but I literally

was like, "Why haven't they cleaned this

up?"

Someone's really got to get on.

And then now you're making me realize,

well, wait a minute,

wait a minute. Why don't I do it?

Why don't you do it? But let me also

give you permission to not take every

problem in the world on your shoulders.

And one of the things, you know, I don't

want to generalize to all women, but I

will speak as a woman. Um, and um, I I

will just say as a confession that, you

know, a lot of my life, I did a lot of

public service, right? So when I was in

high school and especially in college, I

mean there was a point in college that I

literally spent more hours doing public

service than I was in the lecture hall

um or the lab because I was a

neurobiology major. So many many many

hours. And I will tell you that I think

I had one thing very wrong. I felt like

the more tired you were the better. The

more ought and should drove your

motivation the better. In some ways, the

less happy you were, the better the act,

the more virtuous. Now, in my 50s, I can

say, "No, no, no, no, no. Why don't you

There's so many problems in the world.

Honestly, there's so many problems in

the world. You don't have to solve all

of them. You can't solve all of them.

Why don't you focus on the subset that

is interesting to you, right? So that

you're not only fulfilling a sense of

personal purpose and doing the right

thing, but my goodness, if you love

flowers, can't you find a way to make

the better the world a better place that

also allows you to enjoy this, you know,

very serious hobby that you have? Like

why do you have to always go in the

direction that is against the grain? And

I will tell you, Mel, it took me a long

time to fully internalize that. Now, to

me, I mean, this conversation to me is

part of my purpose, right? Like, I want

to make the world a psychologically

wiser place. And if I can do that with

one person, then I will have lived a

good life. But I did not choose history.

I did not choose current events. I would

be a terrible elected politician. I can

barely name all 50 states in the union,

but psychology is interesting to me. So,

so why not marry my purpose to my

interest? When you have that marriage,

that to me creates passion. And so, I

hope people listening are able to say

it's not too late. You know, whenever

you come to this realization, you can

begin that very day to look for the

intersection. I am so glad you said that

because I believe that so many people

feel that there's so many things going

on that nothing's going to make a

difference right?

Or that if you are spending your time

volunteering in an area that interests

you that somehow that's not big enough,

right?

There is a story about purpose in your

book related to brick layers that I want

to read to you. This is on page 149 of

your blockbuster bestseller Grit in the

section on purpose. Fortunate indeed are

those who have a top level goal so

consequential to the world that it

imbuss everything they do no matter how

small or tedious with significance.

Consider the parable of the brick

layers. Three brick layers are asked

what are you doing? The first says I'm

laying bricks. The second says I'm

building a church. And the third says,

"I'm building the house of God." The

first brick layer has a job. The second

has a career. The third has a calling.

How can we apply that to our lives, to

our marriage, to our career? There is

actually a science of calling. So, there

are parables, but there's actually

modern science. And it's true. Some

people, they go to work and it's a job.

It pays the bills. Soon as it's five

o'clock, they are brain shuts off from

their work and they get to do what they

really want to do. Some people have a

career, they see progression, right? So,

this is better, right? By the way, it's

like, oh, I can see that I'm getting

ahead. There's some kind of fulfillment

in that. Um, Mel, we talked about the

gratification of getting better at

something and that's, you know, built

into human DNA. So, that's a wonderful

thing to have a career compared to a

job. But a calling, I think, is

something that marries our intrinsic

interests with our deepest personal

values. And the science of this shows

that when you have a calling,

absolutely, you're happier and you are a

better performer. I think one of the

things that is surprising about this

research is that it's not like

physicians have a calling and nurses

have a career and the guy who has to,

you know, roll the gurnie down the

hallway, well, he has a job. No, if you

actually look at people's, you know,

relationships with their work, it has

nothing to do with the job title. It has

more to do with how they feel about

their work, how they see it and how they

feel it. So you don't have to switch

your job necessarily to have a

relationship with it which is

qualitatively different. And the last

thing I'll say is that this word calling

actually you know you read from the

Bible essentially and um it actually

originally was not a term of modern

psychology. It originally did have a

religious connotation of being called by

God of being um called to do something

by a higher power. And I would say that

what scientists who study calling today,

you know, like the real contemporary

science of it is actually um returning

in a way to that because it's it's

something in addition perhaps to like

wow, this is interesting and whoa, this

is very resonant with my values. When

you are truly called, you do feel like

there is um a task that has been laid at

your door that you are interested in and

you do find important but but that it

needs to be you like that you are

needed. And one of the things that I

think is true for young people today,

but really all of us, is that I think

this deep need to be needed, to be truly

useful, um to be given a task, um and to

feel like, um you know, I again, if we

can do that without the word should,

which I know that seems like

counterintuitive, but to really feel

that sense of um kind of being part of

something uh bigger than your own

personal concerns, I I think that is uh

you know what so many of us are looking

for and I think we should be encouraged

because the research also shows that if

you say to yourself oo I'm the first

brick layer or even I'm the second brick

layer it doesn't mean that you can't be

the third brick layer absolutely

callings evolve

well it's very clear that you have one

I do I feel like it's a calling I feel

of course very blessed to have it and I

can't tell you Mel like well what if you

hadn't been a psychologist like could

you feel that about becoming a uh you

said you love food. I love food too.

Like maybe I could have been maybe a

chef, you know, like that's another road

not taken. Maybe maybe I could have been

a pediatrician. I love children or but I

feel like I have a calling. I feel like

this is um you know my way of making the

world a better place. For somebody who

wants a calling, is there anything in

the research that helps you kind of dig

deeper into this pillar of purpose to

really start to think about how to

anchor what you're doing and why you're

doing it into something that's bigger

than you?

You know, when I talk to leaders and um

though I am not very good at finance and

other things that they teach at the

Wharton School of Business, I mean, I am

um a very passionate student of

leadership and I love studying

world-class leaders the way I love

studying worldclass athletes. And when

you ask a world-class leader, how often

does a typical person, even a very high

ranking executive in your organization,

need to be reminded of the big picture,

right? Like reminded of the greater

purpose of the work. You know, when you

ask that question, you might think

annually because that's how often they

have annual meetings like you know like

the retreats or maybe you think

quarterly because that's often how you

know frequently a CEO has a town hall or

something daily. Sometimes these CEOs

are saying like hourly, minutely, like

just it's it's very easy to lose a sense

of the big picture. And I think if you

ask the question, who benefits if I do

my job well?

Um you you you you naturally get the

answer. I I live a half block from an

elementary school and there is a

crossing guard there who lights up the

world with his smile and his you know

his presence and I remember thinking to

myself like wow like um what an unusual

person and my husband said oh I know

that person right like he actually used

to you know uh uh coach track and and I

guess now he's retired he and I thought

to myself, you know, if he has a

connection to like every child that he

crosses across that busy intersection, a

gets to school safely, b starts the day

with someone looking at them with like

genuine affection and fondness, like,

"Hey, how you doing? Good to see you."

Like, what a beautiful thing. So, I

don't think you have to be a a priest or

a um a social worker, you know, to have

a calling. I mean, you can ask yourself,

who benefits when I do my job well? And

you have your answer.

That was beautiful.

He's great. You got to come see me so

that we can cross the street together.

You got to come on a weekday around like

8.

You're great. I would love to. I would

love to. Let's hit the final one. Hope.

So, you say that grit depends on a

different kind of hope. It rests on the

expectation that our own efforts can

improve our future. I have a feeling

tomorrow will be better is different

from I resolve to make tomorrow better.

Hope is something that doesn't have a

chapter because I think you need hope

whether you're four or 104. And you know

we spoke about growth mindset Mel and

when you ask me what is hope really? You

know, hope is the belief that the future

can be better than the past. And it is

the belief that you can in some way make

that come to pass. When you think about

your life, when you think about your

happiness, when you think about your

health, when you think about your

weight, when you think about your

retirement savings, when you think about

your children and what you can do in

their lives, a hopeful person says, "I

think the future can be better than the

past. And I think there's something even

a small thing that I can do to make it

so. And at the core of hope, I think is

that belief of well well why why would I

believe that? Well, because it is the

nature of human nature to grow. It is

the nature of human nature to make

mistakes, royally screw up, have a lot

of regrets and be smarter and stronger

for the experience. So when I see people

who are gritty at any age, they have

this you know durable sense that because

they are learners because it is in their

nature to develop and not to stagnate

that is what drives their optimism and

their hope for for you know getting

something done the next day as opposed

to staying in bed.

I love that definition. I love that you

unpacked that. Can you just share with

us the research around believing in your

capacity to improve your life or the

life of somebody else?

Sometimes scientists use the term

agency.

Um, and that I think maybe makes the

point that this is not wishful thinking,

right? It's not just positive thinking

in some generic sense, but feeling

agency is a sense of control over your

future. Not the naive sense that you can

determine everything about the future,

which you obviously cannot. Uh,

Alandura, he um no longer lie, but he

was um at Stanford University and he

identified four drivers of agency. He

called it self-efficacy but really um

when you look at what he was talking

about like if you look at the

questionnaire that Albander used I can

do this if I try right that sense of

agency I can do this if I try four

drivers of it he said well one is and I

think this is not very obvious to people

but I think it's very important I know

you know you you've spoken a lot about

you know physical health like taking

care of yourself

said that one of the drivers of agency

is being in a physiological state of of

wellness. You can't have agency when

you're exhausted. You can't have agency

when you're sick like when you feel out

of breath. So So one thing is take care

of your body so that you can have that

sense of energy and agency.

Second was what do you call verbal

persuasion but I always think like pep

talks right? you know, you're kind of

down. You're thinking like, "Oh, I don't

think I can do this." And someone comes

along, maybe somebody who cares about

you, and says, "No, you can do it. I've

seen you do it before." And Alandura

didn't want to dismiss that. He said,

"That is a very powerful source of

agency, but not as good as a third

thing, which is that a person comes

along and they don't give you a pep

talk. They give you a model. They show

you what's possible by example." M.

So he would run these studies and little

girls and boys would watch an adult do

something like play with the toy and

they would watch behind this like plate

glass um divider and then when you let

them into the room and they could do

whatever they want. They just did

exactly the same thing with the toy as

the grown-up did. We learn through

modeling. And when we're not confident

that we can do something and we see a

model who

maybe looks like us, maybe doesn't look

like us, but we vibe with in some other

way, we identify with them,

that creates agency in us. And I've

heard that from my own students. They'll

tell me like, "Oh, you know, you're an

Asian female and I have found you to be

an example for me." And I say to them

like, "Wow, I don't even think about

being Asian female." But but clearly

they could see what was possible through

that. But what I really want to dwell on

is the fourth thing. The fourth thing

was the most important thing. More

important than your physiological state,

more important than pep talks, and even

more important than having a model. And

that was what he called a mastery

experience. I called a small win. You

want someone to have agency, they need a

small win. Every Olympic coach knows

this. You have an athlete that loses a

race and then another race and all of a

sudden they're in a rut. You know what

they need? They need a small win. They

they need it in some way. Like they are

trying to do something in practice and

they did it in practice. They tried to

adjust their elbow by a little. They

they did it. So I think that when we

find a person in our lives, maybe

ourselves, you know, there's a real lack

of hope.

To me, the most important thing is to

find something that can be that little

victory that gives you hard evidence

that you can do something if you try.

And that's what I try to remember, but

don't always enact um with myself and of

course with my children. Um, I'm so glad

that we're talking about this because

I've come to believe that the single

biggest thing standing in people's way

is not ability. It's a lack of hope.

It's this sense of discouragement that

no matter what I do,

it's not going to work.

It's not going to get better.

Or it's not going to get better.

Yeah. And so for the person that feels

that sense of discouragement, I'm too

old, it's too far gone, there's no

fixing this, I'm hopeless, blahy blahy

blah. What would you say to them, Dr.

Duckworth? So, you can be an Olympic

coach if you do this, right? What do

Olympic coaches do? You know what they

do? They take something that an athlete

needs to do, something that looks pretty

darn impossible, right? Maybe not only

to those of us who watch the Olympics

every four years, but even to the

athlete themselves. They break it down

into tiny parts, a hundred parts, and

the next thing is so small that of

course you can do it. I'll just use a

personal example. I'm writing a book.

It's the hardest thing I've ever done.

Many, many tears, months and years of

struggle, insomnia. I mean, I've been

through all of it with this book. When

I'm really discouraged, I take my pen

and I get it out and I put a to-do list

together that is so ridiculously simple.

Like, open Google Doc. And then I open

the Google Doc and I check it off. Small

win, you know? Like I could say to

myself like spend five minutes looking

at this, you know, paper that I printed

out that I don't understand. Write it

down. Check it off. Small win. And so

you can be your own Olympic coach if you

break down these things that are feeling

discouraging to you. When you feel that

feeling of discouragement, you should

just think to yourself, too big, right?

Too big. That's what it is. Not

impossible, too big. Right. You need to

eat in, you know, spoonfuls. You can't

like swallow too much. So So be your own

Olympic coach.

I love that. It's too big.

Yeah. Choose easy. Too big. Do a smaller

thing. can't do uh can't do like 10

minutes of physical therapy, do one.

Well, here's a here's another thing I'm

in love with. I love that quote where

you say, "In order to be a great

swimmer, you got to join a great team."

What does that mean?

So many people are like, "I got to be

great at this thing." And they have this

like little movie of themselves being

great at that thing. And that movie

really kind of stars themselves, right?

And so if you go out and try to start a

company or build an organization or kind

of anything honestly like anything you

are so much better off with a team. I

mean here is the mental picture that I

love. So at the last Olympics I love

these cheesy commercials honestly. I

love the commercials as much as I love

the events. and Toyota had this

commercial called No Journey Is Taken

Alone and it opens with this um uh

female, you know, track athlete and

she's like on the blocks and you know

the British announcer comes over. It's

like ready, set, go. And what happens is

all these people rush on to the track,

her parents and the coaches and her

teammates and her friends and they're

all shouting and uh you know cheering

her on and then they go through

different sports and the the commercial

this parable really is like no journey

is taken alone. Understanding that like

literally go out and join a team. For

example, founders are less successful

statistically on average than

co-founders.

The very best incubators who are looking

for the next big, you know, the next big

like open AI or whatever, they typically

only fund teams. They're like, "Come

back when you have somebody else." And

when you ask those venture capitalists

like, "Well, why would you only fund a

co-founder? Like, why not take the

They're like, "It's too hard. Like, who

could do it, right?" So I think one of

the lessons in life is like don't take

the journey alone, you know, and if that

means running and joining a running

club. I recently discovered there's

something like 30 running clubs in

Philadelphia. Now when I look around, I

notice them. I'm like, "Oh yeah, there

are people who are running together."

Like that's so much more fun and

sustainable than like getting your own

sneakers on just for yourself on a

Saturday morning. Well, one of the other

things that you've been doing a lot of

research on right now is the power that

our cell phones have over us.

Yes, that is an important part of the

situation that didn't exist when I was

growing up, but now does.

So, talk to me about what you're finding

and what you think we need to know.

I'm running this study. It's the first

national study of school cell phone

policies. So, think, you know, your

local elementary school, your local

middle school, or your local high

school. Well, chances are they have a

policy, right? How are students allowed

to keep their phones? Um, and when are

they allowed to use them? And what my

collaborators and I, because I believe

in teams, never do anything like this on

my own. There's a big team of

scientists, including me. And what we're

doing is we're trying to get literally

every teacher in the country to answer a

five minute survey. I know that sounds

like a moonshot, Mel, and it it is, but

if a teacher comes to phones

andfocus.org, what they will find is a

questionnaire written by and for

teachers and it asks you, "What is your

school's cell phone policy? Are you a

bell-to-bell school? Are you a school

that allows kids to use it during

breaks? Um, tell us where students are

allowed to use their phones. Do they

have to keep them in their hallway

locker? Do you use yonder pouches? Do

you do nothing?" And then we ask you

just a few questions about in your

school, what do you see as an educator?

How many kids from 0% to 100% are on

their phone during class when they

shouldn't be on their phone during

class? The survey is very quick. What we

find in our data, we have over 20,000, I

think maybe close to 30,000 teachers

have already taken it. And what we find

is that they hardly ever drop out in the

survey. So once they start it, they and

what what we're discovering is that they

want to tell us, you know, what is going

on because the educators have been left

out of the conversation on on cell

phones. And if I could give you just a

peak, Mel, what the data are telling us,

the stricter the policy, the happier the

educator. The stricter the policy, the

more on task kids are academically. And

in particular, what I'm finding

interesting is the farther the phone

physically, so some schools allow kids

to keep them in their pockets or in

their backpacks, like they might say

you're not allowed to use it all day,

but you can physically keep it wherever

you want, even if it's like directly on

your person. Um, half of the schools in

our sample are saying no show. So like

keep it wherever you want. I just don't

want to see it. Don't ask, don't tell.

Those schools don't do very well. the

schools that say we want you to

physically put this somewhere which is

far from you, they're having better

outcomes. And I say as a psychologist

who's been studying self-control and

grit for 20ome years, the farther the

phone, the higher the GPA in my research

and that is because physical distance

from temptation creates psychological

distance from temptation. So if you are

a parent or you are a teacher and you

think there's a temptation in the life

of a young person or yourself that's not

doing you any good literally keep it

away right and so I you know appreciate

being asked that question because I

think this is one small way we're just

talking about purpose this is one small

way that I think any educator can

actually make a huge difference in the

life of children through policy because

we are going to take those findings

we're going to take them to every

governor and we're going to take them to

every school district superintendent and

whatever happens in the data which again

we're seeing an emerging picture we're

going to share that as widely as we can

because I think this is a a sea change

in the life of young people that you

know if we don't get this right I think

you know we're going to be in a lot of

trouble and I think we already are.

I would love to you know you talk also

about how you can change your

environment in order to protect your

focus. What are the top things that you

want us to be doing related to the

phone?

So, I think if you want anything to be

in your life more, if you want it to be

top of mind, by the way, about half of

the things that we don't do, it's simply

because we forget, right? So, the things

that you want to be reminded of,

literally put them front and center,

right? I tell my students, put out your

arms. I was like, see that? That's your

personal space. That is how

psychologists measure your personal

space. It's about 3 feet in every

direction. You can do it well. See,

that's your personal space. wings. If

it's here, it's within reach and it's

within sight.

So, if I want to do something, it needs

to be within my arms. And if not, it's

not happening.

Farther away, especially with menopause.

Yeah. I mean, exactly. How many times

have I thought to myself, "Oh, I should

go get that book or do and it's up the

stairs." I mean, come on. Really? That

would take what, 5 seconds to walk up

the st I can't be bothered. So, so what

you want in your life, put it within

your personal space. What you want out

of your life, hide it. I mean, you could

eliminate it all together. I think

physical distance equaling psychological

distance is an enormously powerful tool

and you can and you can literally

exercise it like you know immediately.

Um speaking directly to the person who

is with us right now if they take just

one action out of everything that you

have poured into us today what do you

think the most important thing to do?

I think if you could think of everything

we talked about today, right? Because

there was so much homework really

honestly. Um I will tell you one more

pro tip from the science of high

achievement. When elite performers

practice, they try to practice just one

thing. Actually, not three things. So

you can pick your homework assignment.

You know, you could say, "I want to do a

curiosity conversation or I'm going to

push something that I don't want out of

my personal space and I'm going to put a

reminder in my what whatever you want."

I mean,

stop saying should.

You know, you could say, "I'm going to

do the should homework. I'm going to

banish should for 24 hours and see what

happens." You could take the homework of

joining a team. You could say, "Look,

you know what? Running's fun, but I'll

just try a running club. I could always,

you know, not go anymore if it's not my

thing." But I don't think you should try

to do everything. I think you should try

to do one thing, right? Because again,

Mel, if there's one lesson from grit

that really surprised me, it's the

consistency. It's the, you know, try to

have an eight out of 10 like Michael

Phelps, try to have a seven out of 10.

Frankly, try to have a 10 out of 10. But

if you are a one out of 10 and then

another one out of 10 and then maybe

someday a two out of 10 and back to one

out of 10 and then three out of 10 and

but it's never zero out of 10 then you

will glimpse excellence in your own

life. I truly believe that Mel no matter

how talented you were born no matter

what it is that you want to do if you

want to glimpse your own potential

consistency is the way.

Dr. Duckworth what are your parting

words?

My daughter Amanda was um getting tucked

into bed by her mother um many years

ago. I think she was in kindergarten.

And it was one of those days. And I did

not want to swear. And I tucked her into

bed after this very long day when she

had been really a handful. And I said,

"Amanda,

you have been

trying." And she looked at me with these

big eyes and she said, "Mommy, we're all

trying." And I nearly cried. And I

thought to myself, she's right. I mean,

we are all good inside. We are all

ambitious.

Every single one of us is trying. And I

think if there's anything I can do to

help us tribes, if there's anything I

can do to help us try more wisely,

then it will be a life well-lived.

Well, all I can say, Dr. Dr. Duckworth

is I am grateful that you are answering

the call.

Thank you.

Thank you for being here. Thank you for

teaching us so much today. And it just

makes the things that you're trying to

teach us in terms of being wiser

psychologically that much more

accessible. And I just want to tell you

I I am so happy to know you.

Thank you for not only feel like we're

friends now.

Well, we are friends. we are friends

because you know I I really have always

admired your work but I really admire

you as a person now too. So thank you

and you know what you and I are friends

too and I also love the fact that when

you hit play and you find the time and

make the time to listen to this episode

or watch it on YouTube, you're trying to

you're trying to create a better life.

And so here's what I want to tell you. I

want to tell you in case no one else

tells you that I love you as your friend

and I believe in you and I believe in

your ability to create a better life.

And there is no doubt in my mind that

all of the research that Dr. Angela

Duckworth just shared with you and me,

all of the takeaways and the assignments

that she gave us will absolutely help

you do that. I can't wait to hear how

you use this in your life. Thank you for

watching and listening all the way to

the end. Thank you for being generous

with this episode and sharing it with

people that you care about. And I cannot

wait to see you in the very next

episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you

in the moment you hit play. I'll see you

there. And thank you for watching all

the way to the end of this episode here

on YouTube. And I'm sure you're sitting

here going, "All right, Mel, quiet. I'd

love to watch another video. What do you

recommend?" Great question. This one.

And I'll welcome you in the moment you

hit play. I'll see you there.