How to Design Your Life in 1 Hour

It's time to design your life. Dave

Evans and Bill Bernett [music] are the founders of the Life Design Lab at Stanford University, which has [music] been taught for almost 20 years and is now being taught at over 600

universities. You can experience [music]

universities. You can experience [music] more meaning and fulfillment in your life. So, grab your seat because class

life. So, grab your seat because class is in session.

The best way to design your life is to recognize there is no getting you right.

There is no right life. They're just

getting it going. You have it in you to be something. You find your way by

be something. You find your way by living into your life. You build your way forward. There is no knowing. There

way forward. There is no knowing. There

is only doing, learning, and growing.

The job is not working. The marriage

isn't working. There's something I'm really unhappy about. But that doesn't mean there aren't other parts of your life where more meaning and more aliveness are lurking latently waiting for you to discover them. Don't let

those go. [music] There's more life in you than you think. There's more

possibilities than you think. Just try

something. Try something really small [music] and see if you can find that little piece of joy or that just like a pointer towards something that that wakes you up. We know you can do it. At

the end of the day, what we're really doing, we're just giving people permission to live their lives. So

instead of working on the what is the meaning of life, we're here to give you tools to design more meaning in life.

I am so excited for you to experience this episode. It is incredible. You're

this episode. It is incredible. You're

going to love these two professors. But

first, I have an ask of you. See, I just learned from my team that 53% of you that watch the Mel Robbins podcast here on YouTube are not subscribers. I have

this goal that by the end of the year, that number drops to 50%. So, I'm just talking 3%. That 50% of the people that

talking 3%. That 50% of the people that watch here on YouTube are subscribers.

It's the best way that you can support me and the team. If the subscribe button is lit up, it means you're not a subscriber. Just hit subscribe. It's

subscriber. Just hit subscribe. It's

free. You're not going to miss a thing.

And it tells us you love this podcast.

You love the worldrenowned experts that we're bringing you here for free. You

love this as a resource. I really,

really, really appreciate it. And you

know what else? I appreciate you. I love

that you spend your time watching something that's helping you create a more meaningful life. And that's exactly what this episode is going to do. So,

let's get into it. Bill Barnett and Dave Evans, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Well, thanks for having us. We're

thrilled to be here.

Yeah, this is fantastic. We're excited.

You two have been at the top of my list since I started this. I have been waiting for this moment.

I [clears throat] hope you don't disappoint me. No, I'm just kidding.

disappoint me. No, I'm just kidding.

You could have called sooner. We would

have come sooner.

Oh my gosh.

Okay, here's where I want to start. How will

my life be different if I take to heart everything that you're about to share with us today? Yeah.

And I apply it to my life.

You're going to get freer. You're going

to feel more agency in your life. You're

going to realize you actually know how to find your way. And as you go along it, you can make meaning every day. You

know, there's everybody's so busy and there's so much going on. It's all

you're going to learn that it's not about cramming more stuff in. It's about

getting more out of what you've already got and what you can, you know, what you can design for. Um, and I think that helps people just relax, you know, and understand that they they probably have

enough.

Bill, what do you think it is about the popularity of your both of your books and the course? What does all of this

interest say to you about what we're searching for?

Yeah. But I mean particularly amongst the students and I've taught at Stanford and I've taught all over all over the place and we've got over 600 schools now teaching the class. We've trained 600 schools with the students it's it's

really it's really clear and it's gotten kind of worse lately in the last five or six or seven years. Social media and other things. It's um you know will I

other things. It's um you know will I find a good will I have a good life?

Will I find a good job in it? You know

what what's what's I want meaning and purpose but people tell me jobs aren't purposeful. Uh the Gallup poll says 70%

purposeful. Uh the Gallup poll says 70% of Americans are disengaged from their job. Is that the world I'm going into?

job. Is that the world I'm going into?

Is it going to be that bad? And so the for the students it's that kind of anxiety about how do I get started? And

and I had been in office hours for students for years and years and years before Dave and I decided to put this together. And it seemed clear to me that

together. And it seemed clear to me that designing the the the new thing in the world because I've been teaching designers to design iPhones and iPads and and websites and things for years.

designing the new thing in the world was was just like designing the you like what am I going to be in my future. So

everybody had that problem. And then we started working with folks like in you know so midc careers 35 45 and and they're having the same question you know it's like gee it isn't as much

wasn't as cool as I thought it would be or I'm kind of done with this job or I need to pivot.

Now what now what and I haven't thought about that in a long time and I don't have any framework for thinking about it. And I've been doing work with folks

it. And I've been doing work with folks who are retiring, you know, in their 50s, 60s and older and or folks that are um, you know, suddenly empty nesters and they're like, "Well, geez, I organized

my whole life, my wife and I empty nesters, organized my whole life around my kids, and now it's just me and my wife. Like, do we even know each other?

wife. Like, do we even know each other?

Do we have Do we even like each other anymore? What are we going to do?" So

anymore? What are we going to do?" So

this question just keeps coming up and it's about will my will my life or my future be meaningful? Can I find something to do that is got some purpose

in it? And and and a lot of the sort of

in it? And and and a lot of the sort of a lot of the structures of that it used to be well you had a community everybody grew up in the same town and so you knew where you fit in or maybe you had a

faith community or a church or something and a lot of those communities have gone away. There's this huge loneliness.

away. There's this huge loneliness.

People really feel isolated and lonely and things are changing so fast, right, that they they don't know they don't know where to turn for even a way to get started.

You say in your number one New York Times bestselling book, Design Your Life, that the true way to design a life is to design your lives. What does that

mean? We say all the time, all of us

mean? We say all the time, all of us contain more aliveness, more personhood than one lifetime permits you to live out. There's more than one of you in

out. There's more than one of you in there.

Which is why, by the way, Maslo's idea about self-actualization through fulfillment is dead wrong. Because he

literally says in the 1943 paper, you achieve that by becoming all that one can be. No, you can't possibly be all

can be. No, you can't possibly be all that you can be because you're way bigger than your own lifetime. Look, I

buried plenty of people. None of them were done. That's the good news.

were done. That's the good news.

Oh, whoa. I want to make sure that that you didn't miss it. We've buried a lot of good people and none of them were done.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm at an age where I know plenty of dead people closely and they all left with a long to-do list. That's the good news. You're far

list. That's the good news. You're far

bigger than your lifetime. So, the

chance of you being bored or running out of things is zero if you're paying attention, right?

That's the good news.

So the best way to design your life is to recognize there is no getting you right. There is no right life. There are

right. There is no right life. There are

lots of good lives. Let's go lean into them. And by the way, you don't know the

them. And by the way, you don't know the future. You might have a good idea and

future. You might have a good idea and implement it poorly. You might have an idea you thought was good and it didn't work out very well. Whoops. Oh, I blew it. No, I learned my way forward and I'm

it. No, I learned my way forward and I'm going to keep going.

There's no getting it right. There's

just getting it going.

Imagine this. Listen now. Um, we have this linear accelerator at Stanford.

It's not the big and it's not as big as it used to be because we have bigger ones now, but this one's pretty good.

Still runs. And I can put you I can put you in the tube and fire you to the end of the accelerator. It's 2 miles long.

And by the time you get to the end, you're going 99.99% the speed of light, at which point you will experience the multiverse. And you

can have as many lives as you want simultaneously.

You could be the astronaut and the ballerina and the stay-at-home mom and and you'll know about all the universes at the same time. And then we asked the the the I said on the count of three,

one, two, three, tell me how many lives she won. I go 1 2 3 and people go

she won. I go 1 2 3 and people go everywhere from one. It's a really bored burned out guy to infinity. Yeah. Alien

or something. But on average, seven or eight is the average.

Seven or eight. People want eight lives.

And I go, well, that just proves our theory. There's more than one life in

theory. There's more than one life in you. If you could have all those lives,

you. If you could have all those lives, wouldn't it be cool?

And if you have seven lives worth of interest in you and you get one life, you're going to be 14% of your personhood right now. Oh,

right now. Oh, by the time you die, wait, hold on a second.

Yeah, hold on. Because I imagine a world

hold on. Because I imagine a world [laughter] where your one lifetime Yeah.

could have seven different lives in it.

Sure. Which means where you are right now in this particular chapter is just 14% of what you will experience.

That's also true.

Which means you have the opportunity if you change your mindset.

Yeah.

To really design the next 14% section, whether it's from age 71 to 74, Dave, or I don't know how old you are, Bill, but I a little younger. We won't hold

that on the six.

We won't hold that against you. Um, but

if you really think about it that way, right, that means you could create whatever you wanted that was meaningful to you.

Well, and particularly now I tell my students, don't you hope 5 10 years from now you're doing a job that hasn't be even been invented yet? I mean, do you really want to constrain yourself to I'm just going to be this computer scientist or I'm just going to be this economist

or something? Because first of all, jobs

or something? Because first of all, jobs are going to change. We're in the age of AI. everything's going to be different.

AI. everything's going to be different.

And and you can look at that and be terrified or you can look at that and go, "Wow, there's going to be so many new things that show up. All I have to do is pay attention, you know, as these jobs disappear and

reappear." Like when I got out of

reappear." Like when I got out of Stanford long years ago when, you know, dinosaurs still roamed, you know, White Plaza, you had to learn drafting to be a designer. Drafting on a drafting table

designer. Drafting on a drafting table with a with a pencil. Nobody's done that in 40 years. And now I can just do something on my phone and print it on a 3D printer. It's amazing. And so if you

3D printer. It's amazing. And so if you stay in the growth mindset, if you stay curious, the next 10 or 15 years are going to be

amazing for jobs, for careers, for possibilities and and get, you know, like get get your boat in the water now. you know, learn some AI, get some get get figure out how

to I think it's actually going to be a renaissance in creativity because it'll be possible for everyone to do a video, to do a drawing, to do anything to write

a song. This generation feels a little

a song. This generation feels a little bit despondent. You know, there's a lot

bit despondent. You know, there's a lot going on in the in the news. I think

like this will be the first generation that doesn't have more than their parents. This will be the first

parents. This will be the first generation that can't afford a home.

this is the first gen the kids aren't getting married because they just don't see a you know they don't see a future and um I think the design mindset um it's an inherently optimistic mindset

it's like I can't make the optimist design but I can make a better one you know I can make a better one than the one I've got could you speak to somebody in their 20s

who is feeling that sense of discouragement which frankly is justified yeah given some of the factual research about the cost of living and changes that are

happening and the headlines. Like,

look, first of all, if you're 20, yes, be encouraged by the following fact.

Your neoortex, which is the part of your brain that allows you to have an executive function and actually allows you to have full empathy for other people, isn't formed until 27 or 28, a little later in men.

Big surprise there. Um, so if you're 20, 21, 22, you're not even here yet. We

remind our graduating seniors, you're not broken. You're 22.

not broken. You're 22.

Your 22-year-old job is not to figure it out because the you that's ever maybe even going to have a shot at figuring it out is six or eight years away from you.

So, your 20-year-old self's job is to give your 28-year-old self some interesting options. Now, I don't mean

interesting options. Now, I don't mean sit on the couch at mom and dad's house and wait for something to land in your lap. Get out there, start living, do

lap. Get out there, start living, do things, learn your way forward, all that stuff we talk about in all our books.

But if you're 20some, it's gonna get more interesting. So don't give up yet.

more interesting. So don't give up yet.

Now, externally, the macro situation we're all living in, I mean, the macro situation I was living in in 1976 when I graduated college is pretty radically different from what's going on right now

50 years later. Uh people are feeling powerless for a good reason because people with power are hanging on to it and exercising it pretty egregiously right now. Personal point of view. That

right now. Personal point of view. That

being said, okay, there are systems that are bigger than you. The question then says, do you want to spend your time working on those systems?

Bill's got a son named Ben who's currently working, you know, in Congress. He's going to go directly

Congress. He's going to go directly after the problem. You know, I'm not going directly after the problem. I'm

writing books about meaning making for everybody else in the meantime. I hope

that leaves the campground a little better than I found it. So find what you can do within the constraints of reality. Maybe it's different than your

reality. Maybe it's different than your parents' generation. Maybe it's who

parents' generation. Maybe it's who cares that was then. This is now. What

world are you in? What is available to you? How can we make the most of what is

you? How can we make the most of what is not complain about what isn't? But I get that it's hard. It is hard.

It's hard. And I see this in lots and lots of our students that they're willing. They're they're willing to work

willing. They're they're willing to work really. People say, "Oh, the Gen Z's

really. People say, "Oh, the Gen Z's don't want to work hard and they want to be pampered." It's like,

be pampered." It's like, not the ones we know.

The ones I know, they'll do a startup, they'll work 100 hours a week if they believe in something. And so, you know, it's it's I'm I'm very optimistic about

the generation coming up and the generation that's already out there and say, "Well, you know, what can I do?"

You know, a lot of people feel like they don't even know what they want, but there's this other exercise that you are world famous for called the Odyssey plan. Yep.

plan. Yep.

Can you just walk the listener through a little bit because it can help you see other lives in yourself and how to live a meaningful life to lean into?

So, so we know you have to have more ideas to get your best ideas.

And if you get stuck on the one idea, you're going to get stuck on a corner.

So, if we're going to plan the future possibilities, we got to hear from more than one of you. So, three is kind of a magic number because it really gives you some freedom. Um, and one of them is

some freedom. Um, and one of them is probably the life you're already in. The

other one is if you can't do that, what else would you do? And the third one, the wild card. If money were no object, you know, and nobody would laugh at you.

What would you do? That's the wild card.

Well, maybe I would open the Beanie Baby store. Um, um, or I'd start the button

store. Um, um, or I'd start the button shop, you know, whatever the crazy thing is. The reason we ask people to have a

is. The reason we ask people to have a crazy idea is not because the crazy idea is a good idea. It's because we need to train you to quiet the internal critic.

So as soon as you say, "Well, you know, the 54y old woman says, I mean, I'm thinking about going back to medical school. I always wanted to do that. I

school. I always wanted to do that. I

don't think it's too late, but my friends say I'm all crazy. What do you think?" So her internal critic is being

think?" So her internal critic is being encouraged by all of her friends internal critic going, "Well, that's crazy. You can't do that." Um, and

crazy. You can't do that." Um, and that's the part of evolution that keeps you from being eaten by the saber-tooth tiger, you know. So, there's a negative bias built into your brain evolutionarily, lest you be eaten.

[snorts] Um, so you have to learn how to overcome that critic. So, the Odyssey plan helps you imagine there's more than one way you can live and it helps train you to quiet your internal critic so you get the rest of your ideas back.

So, I want to make sure that you really got that. So, the way that you help

got that. So, the way that you help yourself imagine Yep. different possibilities in your

Yep. different possibilities in your life is through the odyssey planning you ask yourself three questions what happens in my life if I change absolutely not nothing where am I for five five years from now and assuming it

goes well yeah well I I thank you for that like let's just assume it goes well assume it goes what happens in five years my life who am I okay second one is all of this disappears

yep can't do that can't do that but I gotta pay my bills and got to have a plan B five years what am I Yep.

What am I doing? And the third is money's no object.

Yep. Whatever you want.

Whatever you want. Nobody's going to laugh.

Yep.

It's going to work out.

Yeah.

What are you going to do?

Yep.

Yeah.

If you do those three and we've done this with I mean tens of thousand tens of thousands of people, including people like I'm not doing this, you know, and we give them 12 minutes.

12 minutes.

12 minutes to do sometimes 15. Yeah. Um and absolutely

sometimes 15. Yeah. Um and absolutely I mean 99.7% of the people do it just fine. I'm s

standing behind this 57y old chiropractor at you know a real guy at one we had 600 people in the room. This

one guys sitting back from the just looking at the paper going.

So I come up to him I said um so how's it going? Fine. I go you're just going

it going? Fine. I go you're just going to sit this one out. He goes no no I'm I'm doing it. I go well you're not doing much. You got to pick up the pen. He

much. You got to pick up the pen. He

goes, "Yeah, I'm a little stuck." I go, "Well, what do you do?" "I'm a chiropractor." "Okay, great. You like

chiropractor." "Okay, great. You like

it?" "Yeah, I like it a lot." "How long you been doing that?" "27 years." "Okay,

you want to die doing that?" I said, "What?" I said, "By the time you die, do

"What?" I said, "By the time you die, do you want to still be doing this?" He

kind of goes, "Well, I don't think so."

I said, "Oh, then at some point you're going to do something else." He goes, "Well, I guess so." I go, "And what might that be?" He goes, "Oh, I guess I am going to do something else, aren't

I?" I said, "Yes, you are. Write that

I?" I said, "Yes, you are. Write that

down." and he goes, "Oh, okay." I mean, he had it in him. He just had to get over himself.

I love this. And I'm going to encourage you as you're listening, unless you're driving a car, do this right now. Think

about it. It like if you if nothing changes, it goes well, what does life look like 5 years? If everything

disappears and you got to go to plan B, what does life look like in 5 years? And

what are you doing? What's the something else? And

else? And what is the crazy wild thing that you don't need money and nobody's going to laugh at you? Yep.

What is that thing?

They'll say that's cool. You know, and here the other thing in classes and lectures, it's a series of these these little workshop things and design exercises. So then people get in threes

exercises. So then people get in threes and they read each other. I I read my Odyssey plan to the other people and we teach them to listen very generatively.

In in tens and tens of thousands of these, the last question I ask when I'm debriefing the class, I say, you know, those wild card plans that you heard from everybody in the class of the

listeners, how many of you think that person could actually do the wild card?

It's not nearly as crazy as they think.

100%.

100%.

It's not as crazy as you think. And

again, we're not trying to get people to quit their jobs and, you know, and join the circus.

Join the circus. It's just that it's proof there's more life in you than you think. There's more possibilities than

think. There's more possibilities than you think. When you think in threes, not

you think. When you think in threes, not binaries or ones, you you know, you light up like the sicko sign in Boston. When you talk about this, what is your wild card the last time you did this?

Artist.

Be an art like a painter.

I am a painter. I have been a painter.

So, I went off to Stanford, which is was even back when I did it was kind of expensive. And um uh I wanted to be an art major. And my dad was a pretty

practical guy and he said, "Look, if you want to be an art major, yeah, come back and go to go to UMass, you know, UMass uh was UMass, I don't know, was $300 a year or something." He said, "I'm not paying for Stanford." But I found this

design thing, and that was pretty cool.

Was that because our design major was a combination of art, engineering, and psychology. But I did make a promise to

psychology. But I did make a promise to that 18-year-old kid that someday I'd be an artist. And so I have a studio. I

an artist. And so I have a studio. I

have a digital studio for music and one for painting. And painting is my thing.

for painting. And painting is my thing.

And when I'm in the studio painting, that is flow. That is a constant state of absolute flow. I don't know if I'm any good. I don't care. Um, Robert Henry

any good. I don't care. Um, Robert Henry is a famous uh painting school in New York in the in the 1920s. His phrase was the the goal isn't to make art. The goal

is to be in that marvelous state of mind that makes art inevitable.

Do you know that's the mission of how we do work here? Yeah,

that quote.

Cool. I I can tell. [laughter]

So that's on the door of my studio and to be and to be in that marvelous state of mind.

Um yeah, it's it's it's a very special place.

Yeah.

And so I promise myself that that will be my that is that is my wild card and that is coming up.

Dave, what's yours?

Well, there are a bunch of them. One

probably I came very close to becoming an actor. Um, but there's a particular

an actor. Um, but there's a particular version of performance art that I've long thought would be really fun to try, which is to be a waiter in an extremely elite restaurant.

Really?

Yeah. Which I think is absolutely performance art.

I mean, it's the first time I've ever heard this. So, tell me more about

heard this. So, tell me more about how to read how to read the room. I mean

so um you know that people are coming in their expectations are incredibly high and this couple's having an argument and that you know family is celebrating the kids' graduation and and can you read can you read the room? Can you maximize

this incredible experience because you go to a fine dining experience for a particular kind of celebration or a particular kind of you know outing and the right weight service catalyzes it

beautifully. The wrongway service wrecks

beautifully. The wrongway service wrecks it. And can I deliver the improv

it. And can I deliver the improv performance that has nine different stages at the same time called tables playing nine different parts.

Having every one of those people have an amazing experience in real time. Can I

pull that off? I mean, running a really, really amazing restaurant is a really, really, really hard thing. It's really

hard.

That's definitely not on my fantasy list. My fantasy list

list. My fantasy list I don't want to be in the kitchen. It's

too scary. Mine for sure is I want to write a fantasy trilogy.

Oh, okay.

Yes. All about angels that are among us and the theme of our imagine a world where Mel is a fantasy trilogy writer, right? Are you born good or bad? And I

right? Are you born good or bad? And I

have this whole I've been thinking about it for 10 years and I'm I'm going to do I'm going to do like but it's it's always in there and I

love that you share that. And for you listening or watching, I I want you to share your wild card.

Yeah.

Either with us or put it in the review or the comment of this show. Or when you share this episode with somebody that you care about, be a little cryptic and

say, "My wild card is this." And you'll know exactly what I mean when you listen to this, and then I want you to tell me yours.

Yeah.

You know, Mel, Bill and I, we talk about the stuff we've been doing for a long time. We often say at the end of the day

time. We often say at the end of the day what we're really doing, we're just giving people permission to live their lives. It's really just giving Yes, you

lives. It's really just giving Yes, you can. You do know how to do this. You

can. You do know how to do this. You

have it in you. You may not have it in you to be an Olympian, but you have it in you to be something. And because

right after the Odyssey plans comes prototyping, what on your plan do you want to learn about? And then they prototype.

That's the next step.

They come back. That's the next step.

They come back the next class and they go, you know, did you know you can actually make a living in the circus? I had one student who was a gymnast at Stanford and she wanted to go to medical school. Her

parents wanted to go to medical school.

She cut a deal. Can I can I do something before I go to medical school? She's now

in Cir to Sole in China and she is a circus clown which was on her Odyssey plan and just having a great time. But

people have a hard time even imagining something so wild it's not possible. And

when they talk about plan one, it's kind of like, yeah, also I'm going to just keep being an account and I'm going to do this thing and you know, I'm pretty good at it and da da. But when they talk about their wild card, they're like, you

know, I really love diving and underwater photography and I'm wondering if I could be a a dive instructor who does photography maybe for National Geographic. And I said, well, I happen

Geographic. And I said, well, I happen to know a guy who started a company building underwater cameras. Would you

like to have a prototype interview? And

they're like, really? I go, yeah. when

you know that you don't know what you're doing, right? The competence of you have to be

right? The competence of you have to be competent at your incompetence. You have

to be good at knowing when you don't know what you're doing called the future I haven't figured out yet.

Yes.

So you make a move then learn something, make a move, learn something, then go back, you know. So that that keep making moves until you finally iterate your way forward through prototyping. That's what

we teach. Life is a series of incremental prototypes. You find your

incremental prototypes. You find your way by living into your life. you build

your way forward. We keep saying there is no knowing. There is only doing, learning, and growing.

So, I know I'm going to get a ton of questions about this. Can you guys give a couple examples of what actually a prototype looks like?

So, clowning. Clowning is actually a thing. And there's is it the Shriners?

thing. And there's is it the Shriners?

Is it there's there's some outfit where they train the members and they do clowning in hospitals to visit kids? Oh,

so you could probably call the local hospitals. And does anybody do clowning

hospitals. And does anybody do clowning with the children? Oh, great. Do they

have a training for that? So, you could go you, trust me, there's somebody who will train you to be a clown and be a little bit of clowning that you could go into the children's ward and try cheering some maybe just ride

along with them, watch them, you know, I mean, there are ways to get at the thing that you think you're thinking about.

So, you're 20some.

You see your friends living in Montana?

Should I live in New York? Should I go to Montana? Should I go into I banking?

to Montana? Should I go into I banking?

Should I be a ski bomb? Like, I don't know what to do with my You're 28. What?

Like, what's a an example of a prototype? Here's another one. A uh

prototype? Here's another one. A uh

stay-at-home mom. The kids are gone. Now

it's my turn, right?

What am I doing? Am I going back to nursing school? Am I finishing my

nursing school? Am I finishing my degree? Like,

degree? Like, am I writing that novel?

Am I writing that novel that I'm thinking about? Like, what does that

thinking about? Like, what does that mean in terms of just a couple specific things that you've seen people do to give the person listening an idea? I'm

sitting with the 57year-old suddenly empty- nested mom who left a couple of things behind. Doesn't know what to do.

things behind. Doesn't know what to do.

Great. So, let's quickly come up with your list of things that might be at all interesting.

Okay.

Oh, yeah. I'm thinking about being a ski bum. I'm thinking about going back to

bum. I'm thinking about going back to medical school. I should talk to a 54

medical school. I should talk to a 54 year old about that, you know, and I'm thinking about being a novelist. Okay,

fine. Um, now maybe I should Oh, I'm going to go back and and get a master's degree in creative writing and spend three years and $30,000 and then write one blog. And I didn't like it that

one blog. And I didn't like it that much. Terrible idea. That's jumping way

much. Terrible idea. That's jumping way off the cliff. So the prototype I do would say talk to people, try stuff. So

go out and have a bunch of narrative conversations, not with, oh, you're a novelist and how much do you make and what did you school did you go to? Those

are transactional conversations, not narrative conversations like what's it like to be you and what do you enjoy and what do you not enjoy and tell me all about that? And I have these narrative

about that? And I have these narrative conversations with people in the world I'm thinking about being in. M

which is what Dan Gilbert at Harvard, not a bad school, would say is surrogation, not simulation. Quit

reading about it. Go talk to people about it because you're a person. And

when you encounter a person who tells that story, that story becomes real.

You'll actually learn more from persons in the world you're thinking about than reading about it.

You'll feel something.

You'll feel something. You'll experience

something. And then maybe some of them can get you to a ride along and a visit.

You can you can do some experimentations. Try stuff long before

experimentations. Try stuff long before you overcommit. And then eventually

you overcommit. And then eventually after enough iterations, you'll make a better decision.

You know what's interesting? Because I

want to build on this. Yeah.

Because so many people probably say to you, "Well, I have no idea.

I have no idea what I want to do." And I that's almost never true.

I agree with you. And if you're saying that right now, like, "I don't know what my life's about. I don't know what I like." I I love this 14% thing and this

like." I I love this 14% thing and this idea and the invitation you gave us to step into a time machine accelerator thingy. And the average person says,

thingy. And the average person says, "I've imagined eight lives."

Yeah.

So, you're in one of them, right?

You've got another seven. Y

what are the other seven lives you would imagine in the fantasy of your mind, right?

And those are the things to then lean into and get curious about. Correct.

I've always wanted to be a dive instructor. I love diving, but I don't

instructor. I love diving, but I don't do enough. I always want to be a

do enough. I always want to be a photographer. But you can prototype any

photographer. But you can prototype any of these things and find out like for instance, I you know, I I I want to have a podcast. Okay. Before you jump into a

a podcast. Okay. Before you jump into a podcast, try writing, you know, a 2,000word essay every day for five days.

See how that feels. Oh, that was really hard. It was really lonely. Dave hates

hard. It was really lonely. Dave hates

writing because it's lonely. I'm the

introvert. He's the extrovert. I love

sitting in a room talking to myself all day long. He's wonderful and he can't

day long. He's wonderful and he can't stand it. Um, so like try the trying

stand it. Um, so like try the trying stuff and the talking to people. If you

talk to writers, they'll say writing is very lonely. If you can't handle that,

very lonely. If you can't handle that, it probably not it's not going to be a good thing for you. And you wouldn't know that unless you talked to somebody who does it. So you can have these little it's it's almost like time travel. You can have a little experience

travel. You can have a little experience of talking to somebody who's the person you think you might want to be. They're

already 10 years down the road doing it.

And that experience but that conversation is so much more powerful than oh I'm going to look up on on you know on Google how many you know how many writing hacks are there? You know

when when did the five most famous writers write? You know they wrote in

writers write? You know they wrote in the morning they wrote in the afternoon.

There's no pattern to any of that stuff.

So, uh you can prototype anything and and the lack of the lack of curiosity isn't really true. I I have no ideas.

You really have no ideas. Okay? You

know, what did you what was the last show you watched that you thought was interesting? Pick something simple.

interesting? Pick something simple.

We're not talking about the thing you'll do for the rest of your life. We're

talking about what do you want to do next week?

So as all of this opens up for somebody and they have this sense of what might create more meaning right and I want to get curious I want to prototype I

the fear of failure and the fear of what other people are going to think probably comes in like a sledgehammer what do you say to people in your classes when they get this moment of

clarity and then it's like start really small I mean get cut yourself some slack for god's sake I mean Um, we talk about failure immunity because the purpose of a prototype is to learn something, not to succeed. We

don't prototype to make sure, oh, will it work? No, just what do I need to know

it work? No, just what do I need to know more about? I'm I'm going to go right

more about? I'm I'm going to go right along, you know, and and be an auditor of the children's clowns, you know, at the hospital, you know, and I might say the wrong thing. I mean, did I blow it?

No, no, no. I'm just I'm just trying to learn what it's like here. Yeah.

So, first of all, have your prototypes, not bet the farm, you know, like maybe my maybe what I'll do is I'll I'll, you know, I'll go to Shea Panise in Berkeley, you know, one of the most expensive

restaurants in all of California and see because I know a friend who's really close friends with Alice Waters and she could probably get me in as the waiter.

So, my first night as a waiter is in front of Alice Waters at Sha Penise.

That is not a prototype. That's a

performance. So, cut yourself some slack.

You're likely to fail.

And I'm likely to fail. I probably

wouldn't even want to serve the bread there. So like in

there. So like in So [clears throat] So make it easy. Make

it small where almost nothing is at stake. Um of which there are plenty of

stake. Um of which there are plenty of opportunities. Give yourself a break.

opportunities. Give yourself a break.

Make it interesting. Make it fun. Cut it

down small. Don't shoot too high. We're

we're really big on set the barlo. You

know, set the barlo and clear it. I

mean, you've written about this. This is

this is the whole psychology of behavior change. You're not going to change if

change. You're not going to change if you make something so big. know that

this is the new year and people have made their resolutions. I'm going to run a marathon this year. It's like well probably unless you break that into very very small steps, it's not going to happen. And so we really we really go

happen. And so we really we really go for super simple things. Uh and then that builds up your confidence too. If

you try something and you you know try some prototypes, you learn some stuff, you get a little more confident eventually, you know, when you flip into these this designer mindset, you realize, oh, I can prototype anything.

there's really no failure here, you know, failure is it's just a rule I made up in my head and uh once I get rid of that rule, I'm I'm much more free. But

yeah, fear drives a lot of people to to not try.

Yeah. Is it ever too late? I think

there's a big fear that it's too late.

I've blown it too much. Like

it's never No, it's never too late.

No, no, it's never too late. I mean, the I'm coming out of a talk, a 54 year old woman has asked me about, you know, am I crazy to go to medical school?

And I said, 'Look, let's let's just run the numbers really quickly, okay? Based

on the DNA of the gene pool you were born into, what's the likelihood of when you're going to die? She kind of goes, I'm probably going to make it to my late 80s, or early 90s. I go, great. If let's

say I make it healthy to 85, 88, how long do you want to work? Well, probably

80. I said, okay, great. So, we got 26 years to go. Um [laughter]

and you know so you apply probably going to spend a year going to you know a medical school application preparatory program you know called a postback program spend a year on that spend a year trying to get in that's two four

years to get through medical school now you're in residency by the way 90% of medicine is done by residents so you're already a doctor you're now practicing medicine six years into the program eventually let's you finish your

specialty you know we're now eight years into the program that puts you at 64 you got 11 You got 11 to 12 years to go before even backing off, maybe 15. Cut

out the crap of all this conventional thinking and just ask yourself the question, what's happening? What might

it be? I mean, I'm about to get married for the third time because, you know, my wife died on me and which was not the plan. And a lot of my friends, they me it's too hard. It's

too much work. I don't you really want to go through that again? I go, sure.

Um, this is terrific. Um, it's a ton of work. It's an absolute mountain of work,

work. It's an absolute mountain of work, you know, but I mean, what what else am I doing?

When you go to a funeral, it's very interesting.

Oh, yeah.

The second you walk out of the funeral, you feel more alive and you have more urgency.

Yeah.

To do what you came here to do, Dave and Bill. You said, "We want to give people

Bill. You said, "We want to give people permission."

permission." Yeah.

To live their lives. And especially

right now when the world feels so overwhelming and people are exhausted and there are very big problems like it it is easy to go it doesn't matter. And

when you start to do the math whether you're telling me that you have seven different lives you could do. You're going to die with [ __ ] on

do. You're going to die with [ __ ] on your to-do list and things you never achieved. You you're 50 so what? You got

achieved. You you're 50 so what? You got

40. You're 70. You probably got 20 more years left. What are you doing?

years left. What are you doing?

Yeah. Look, my next milestone is death.

I haven't got time to waste.

[laughter] You know, u both Dave and I have been in wonderful communities. I've been in this

wonderful communities. I've been in this group of men, a men's group for 32 years because I started when my son got born and I needed to figure out how to raise a son. Um, and we end up we've been

a son. Um, and we end up we've been around long enough that we've had some guys die, gone to other funerals and said wonderful things about them. And

then we decided, why do we wait till we die before we said say wonderful things about each other? So, we have a a protocol in our men's group where you can say, I'm going to die next week. You

got like everybody to write a eulogy and then you come in and then and then you you know lay there quietly and you listen to people say the most wonderful things about you, right? Because

eulogies are not about, oh well, you know, Dave had a big to-do list. He

crossed off lots of things. His

powerpoints were [laughter] very well done and he always got his budget set on time. Nobody says that.

time. Nobody says that.

They say what he's a good man. He was a wonderful husband. He was a great

wonderful husband. He was a great father. So, um, do that. Have your

father. So, um, do that. Have your

friends write your eulogy and find out what you really mean to people. It's

amazing.

You could also you do that exercise thinking about what you hope or wish is being said about how you lived your life. Exactly.

life. Exactly.

Because what you don't want it to be is, well, he got to be 70 and had the love of his life and just turned down the opportunity to get married again and do it. and she wanted to go to medical

it. and she wanted to go to medical school but talked herself out of it for 30 years, right? No, I'm in a smug group of guys

right? No, I'm in a smug group of guys for 51 years formed in 1974 called TD3, Tom and Three Daves. I'm the founding Dave. Um, and you know, we just went

Dave. Um, and you know, we just went through this exercise of moving into our 70s. And so we said, "Okay, let's all

70s. And so we said, "Okay, let's all first of all announce what age we think we're going to die at and then write the eulogy you hope will be true by then

and make sure that the eulogy includes things that aren't true yet so you can live aspirationally into that."

that." Um, and we really do believe that the human being is a becoming and that becoming should be a non-stop program.

Don't quit early. Now you might have to have some constraints physically, circumstantially otherwise, but there's always more you can become into. So

which questions do you want to live into?

And by the way, preferably it does really help to have some people around that you're asking these questions with.

Yeah.

So how old did you say you were going to be when you died? And what was the thing that you haven't done yet that was on the list?

My life 85. I'm guessing I'll make it to 85.

I'd like you to live a little longer.

Well, I I'm thinking I may work for an extension to the contract, but nonetheless, I I said at the time I said 85.

And the way I put what I'm aspiring to was when I get to heaven, I want to be recognized as somebody who's already been there. Meaning, I've already

been there. Meaning, I've already stepped into profound acceptance and universal love and welcome to all prisons at all times.

I want to look like I'm already doing that by the time I get there.

[clears throat] I think there's a huge power and you know this based on the way the brain works in really embracing the truth of everything that you just said in terms of giving

yourself permission to not just live a meaningful life now and find moments of meaning but to really think about what you want to accomplish

by the end. You know, I'm thinking about this.

Who do you want to become?

Yeah. Who do you want to become? I'm

thinking about my mother-in-law who's 89.

I think she's 89. Is she 88? I don't

know. But she's she texted in the familywide group chat.

Yeah.

I'm going to be here another 10 years.

Okay.

Because I want to see all the grandkids get married if they choose to get married.

Right.

And I was like, "Wow, she's in the game.

She's in the game."

Yeah.

She knows what she's doing.

Yeah.

And I think that's there's an invitation to all of us. And so I love that construct of what age do you think you're dying and what are all the things that you want to accomplish that you

haven't done yet and what do you hope yeah the specific tool in the book for that is called the focus question. We

actually encourage you to come up with the focus question is what focuses your attention on what you're trying to become at this particular moment or season of your life. So can you write

down the question that not like will I have enough money to retire by then?

Those are transactional questions. But

you know, a year from now, two years from now, three years from now, if you live well into the invitation to become more yourself, what question do you hope to

be able to answer by the end of the next year, two or three that you're thinking about? So in

my case, it was, you know, how will I learn to live out of get to, not got to, because I think that's a more generous position that might allow me to hit

heaven in the right point of view. Um,

and so that's the focus question I've got. How do I live deeply into get to,

got. How do I live deeply into get to, not got to? That's my focus question for now. And and preferably having some

now. And and preferably having some people around you that can help you with that question. And by the way, I don't

that question. And by the way, I don't think anybody writing their eulogy or those questions says,"I wish I had more.

I think I want to have more money by the time I'm X." because you you get to the second half of life assuming that money is enough and maybe it's not but or

whatever but it's hard you you start to realize that those kinds of transactional accomplishments while important and interesting ways of keeping score um aren't the things that

are going to make you happy when you when you're dead or when [laughter] you get to that point. So I think I you know it's I really encourage um the folks who

are you know thinking about this stuff think think a little you know give yourself a little bit of time turn off the phone and give yourself a little bit of time to think about you know what

what would I hope people say about me and and how do I become the person that deserves them to say that

and I bet stuff comes up and it's could be connected to your wild card. It could

be just connected to, you know, where you are in your journey. I bet stuff comes up where you, you know, a lot of times when I do these extra because, you know, one of the first things I said to Dave when we set this up is, you know,

we got to do everything we put in the books otherwise we're the biggest hypocrites on the planet. So, we do all this stuff and every once I do this stuff, I lean back and I go, "Oh, wow.

Where did that come from?"

You know, that's a good like that's that's an idea. Where did that come from? And, you know, it came from some

from? And, you know, it came from some part of me, you know, just needed a little bit of quiet. to, you know, to find its voice. So, I hope people can do that because it's really

Yeah. If you're paying attention, life

Yeah. If you're paying attention, life is full of invitations.

I think life is full of invitations to your becoming self if you're paying attention.

Yeah. You said, "Turn off the phone and take the time." For the person that says, "Well, I I just can't. I'm

overwhelmed. I have no time." What do you want to say directly to them, Bill?

Um, I'll bet if I looked at your phone and tripod, it would tell me how much time you spent on Instagram, how much time you spend on Tik Tok, how much time you spent scrolling mindlessly, you

know, through reals or short videos on YouTube. I do it, too. And every once in

YouTube. I do it, too. And every once in a while, I look at that and go, I can't believe I spent an hour on this crap.

So, give yourself a p a pause and, you know, go look at the phone. It'll tell

you how much time you spent just doom scrolling through stuff. And and I always ask people, tell me the last video you were, tell me the last video you watched. They go, I don't know. Tell

you watched. They go, I don't know. Tell

me the last really I don't know. Tell me

the last, you know, text you read or the last thing you read on on X. I don't

know. I said, so if you're doing it and you can't even remember what it was, would you like to reallocate that time to something more interesting? I'm only

talking about 20 minutes here. Can you

give me 20 minutes? And that that you would have spent because I I do the same thing.

and and and just be present with yourself and see what comes up.

You know, standing in front of a big blank canvas and I'm going, "Oh, the world really needs an older white guy painter cuz we need more painters in the world and I'm going to paint something and no one's going to care." So, I go

through all that stuff in my head. And

then if I quiet down for a little while and I, you know, just stare at this thing, I get an idea. Then I get another idea and I get another idea and pretty soon

the painting is painting itself and everything is is wonderful. But boy,

everybody's got that moment where they're like, "Oh, this isn't going to work or this is stupid or this is useless."

useless." I have that all the time.

Well, that's the moment.

Yeah.

That's what it all comes down to.

Yeah. Because you can stay there or you can lean in the world you've taught us about. pick up a brush and put something

about. pick up a brush and put something on the canvas and see.

And again, set the bar low. Like, oh, I really need to start meditating, so I should do 20 minutes every morning between 6:00 and 6:20. I got to get up at 5:30, you know, and eat some really pure yogurt first, you know? Like, whoa,

dude, lighten up. Um,

five minutes. Can you give me How about like we've got a thing called the seventh day savoring. Once a week, sit down and pick a moment during the week when you felt deeply alive. go back

and savor it because you didn't have time to fully experience it in real time. You know, you could just go back

time. You know, you could just go back there and like linger over it. I mean,

put put that let it sit on your tongue and really get the most out of it. Okay,

it's five minutes a week and your prototype is I'll do that twice. Okay,

so two five minutes on a Sunday afternoon and then ask the question, was I worth it? Did I enjoy that? Want to do a little bit more?

I mean, it's okay. You don't have to jump over your head if you're moving your, you know, that's moving toward a meaning-making practice. So, you're

meaning-making practice. So, you're designing your way forward.

I want to read to you, okay, from your blockbuster bestseller, how to live a meaningful life. And this

is page eight.

All of us, this longing for more meaning yeah may be one of the most universal things that all humans want. lives that are generative and joyful, fulfilling and

connected. Lives that are about more

connected. Lives that are about more than just getting through each day, paying the bills, maybe taking a vacation now and then. And too many people are finding too few an answer for

how to get what their hearts keep telling them they were made for, the meaning and purpose that they need. The

quest for meaning can seem too big and too overwhelming. But here's the thing.

too overwhelming. But here's the thing.

There is something you can do really actually do to experience a more meaningful life today, right now in this

exact moment. So Dave,

exact moment. So Dave, yes.

What is that one thing?

Well, the first thing is you got to reframe. You know, in design, we do

reframe. You know, in design, we do problem finding before we do problem solving. One of the reasons people fail

solving. One of the reasons people fail is they're working on the wrong thing.

Problem finding. finding precedes

problem solving.

Okay, so the question, oh, how do I live a more meaningful life? Usually frames

itself as what is the meaning of my life? I have not yet found my purpose.

life? I have not yet found my purpose.

What is the one true thing that really is what I'm here to do? [snorts] And we think those are all the wrong question because they all treat you as a transaction, as a problem to be solved

for which there is a correct answer.

Okay? So instead of working on the what is the meaning of life, we're here to give you tools to design more meaning in life.

Okay. I want to make sure the person listening got this.

Yeah.

One of the reasons why I get stuck and you get stuck and the people that you love get stuck is number one, we're asking the wrong question, which is how the ultimate answer to life, the

ultimate is this really it?

Have I found it? No, you haven't found it because you're going to keep growing and it's going to change. So, stop

worrying about it and let's work on this.

Well, what I love about it is, and you know, look, this is why you guys are brilliant, okay? Just going to say, is

brilliant, okay? Just going to say, is because as I've been sitting here going, you know, I got to find it. That that

statement in and of itself says it's out there, right?

How do I create more meaning right now here?

Yes, here. So, don't wait for the ultimate answer. No, by the way, we have

ultimate answer. No, by the way, we have both in different ways have worked on the big questions for a long time and we think the big questions really matter.

I'm not saying never think about that.

What I'm saying is don't defer life is good and worthwhile until you find those answers.

What you can do is start living into the moment that you're in. So the first reframe is how do I find more meaning now? And then the second thing is and

now? And then the second thing is and where might I find it?

Well, I'm glad you said there was a second question because here's the thing. As somebody who's really screwed

thing. As somebody who's really screwed up her life for large stretches of it, there are times if you had asked you had instructed me Yeah. Mel, the answer is to find more meaning where you are right

now. You know what I would have said?

now. You know what I would have said?

Probably f you because I don't like where I am right now and there is nothing meaningful about this which is why I want something else. Do you know what I mean?

So what do you say to the person that's feeling that right? Like there is no way to find meaning where I am right now.

That's probably because the thing that's not working, there's something about the job is not working. The marriage isn't working. There's something I'm really

working. There's something I'm really unhappy about.

Yes, I'm not getting what I wanted from this particular aspect of my life.

And so then you say, well, find more meaning. You're trying to tell me how to

meaning. You're trying to tell me how to make a bad thing good. This is the old, well, when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Okay. The problem with the

lemonade. Okay. The problem with the lemonade idea is, let's take a bad thing and make a good thing of it. No, no, no, no. Okay, there's something that's not

no. Okay, there's something that's not working. I get that. But that doesn't

working. I get that. But that doesn't mean there aren't other parts of your life where more meaning and more aliveness are lurking latently waiting for you to discover them. Don't let

those go.

Now, meanwhile, we might want to have some projects to maybe your job is a bad situation. When we've got asked over and

situation. When we've got asked over and over again, why isn't it more fulfilling? It's I thought I did

fulfilling? It's I thought I did everything you guys said and it still isn't working for me. We're hearing that skyrocket as a question in the last two years. I'm just not having the impact I

years. I'm just not having the impact I want to. H well impact is important but

want to. H well impact is important but it's only one form of meaning making and it's got a very short half-life like right after you finish doing something successful 3 2 1 what have you done for

us lately? So there are other ways to

us lately? So there are other ways to experience meaning which happen in this place we call the flow world not in this busy world we're all in most of the time we call the transactional world. So our

big invitation for where that more meaning is is spending more time in the flow world which is right here by the way but there's a lot more in front of you than you think. This is easier than they told you.

Okay, that's the part I want to hang on to.

Yeah, this is easier than they told you. And

this is also easier than what you're currently doing.

So flow is that state where time stands still. You're in the moment by

still. You're in the moment by definition because that's where you are fully engaged and and it's it's a moment where actually you you're you're making energy.

uh psychologists will say it's a it's an energy generating moment because it just feels so good you dopamine and other good chemicals going in the brain and um

some of this comes from the work of Dr. Lisa Miller, I think you you know her from Columbia. She kind of updated the

from Columbia. She kind of updated the left brain, right brain model. You said

the right brain was the creative brain and the left brain is the analytical brain. It's more nuanced than that. And

brain. It's more nuanced than that. And

her model is there's the achieving brain, the the transactional brain. And

the awakened brain is where we experience flow, where we experience spirituality, where we experience a connection to something bigger than ourselves. And so all we're arguing for

ourselves. And so all we're arguing for is recognized as those two things, the transaction world, the flow world, the achieving brain, the awakened brain, and

get a little more into, you know, building your whole brain, which is having a balance between the two. Um,

and being in the flow world and experiencing this awakened sense of yourself connected to the world. That's

when we're more human, right? So we need both sides of the brain. We need both awakened and achieving. We need to be in the transaction world and the flow world. Uh, and we and we're

world. Uh, and we and we're underpracticed, right, at getting into the flow world.

Can you give me some examples in day-to-day life that really help illustrate for the person listening who has never even considered that

there's a second world to live in other than the one in your head, right?

What does it feel like to be in flow? or

what's an example that you might find in somebody's everyday life that you could hold on to to go, "Oh, I've experienced this. I okay, I understand this this

this. I okay, I understand this this difference."

difference." If you're an athlete, you're in you you you felt it. You're in the zone. You're

that place where you just know where the ball's going to be. If you're a runner, it's the runner's high where you your your your brain goes quiet and you're just on the run.

Um I like to cook. For me, it can be as simple as, you know, I'm chopping onions. I'm doing my misone floss and

onions. I'm doing my misone floss and preparing everything before I cook and put on some good music and just be in that state and then I'm not thinking about school. I'm not thinking about,

about school. I'm not thinking about, you know, the budget. I'm not thinking about other things. I have a lot of voices in his head that are talking to me all the time. And so learning to just

kind of quiet them down and do some do do an activity, running, cooking, something that you enjoy doing, but really being allin, right? being,

you know, totally present and being available to what the experience can be.

I keep coming back to this 14% thing. I

think you, your next book should be the 14% mindset because I just feel this sense of the invitation.

Yeah.

Of the unlived life that there's these two lives that we have, the one you're living.

Yeah. The one you're living and the one you have yet to create.

Sure. And one of the things that you two write about is that you can boil the design your life process into a post-it note.

Right, Bill? What's on the post-it note?

Bill? What's on the post-it note?

Well, this this is this is hard.

Professors don't like to boil their their things down to something so simple that anybody can do it.

Actually, what everybody says anybody any idiot can make it complicated. It

takes a genius to make it simple.

Exactly. Um those Mark Twains, if I had more time, I'd have written a shorter letter. Yeah.

letter. Yeah.

It happened on Canadian live TV. We we

were running out of time. The producer

goes, "We're just about out of time. Can

you do the book in a sentence?" I said, "Dude, we're Stanford professors. We

don't give short answers to hard questions." He goes, "Oh, then you're

questions." He goes, "Oh, then you're off the air." Said, "Give me a minute."

I was a marketing [laughter] guy. Um,

get curious, talk to people, try stuff, tell your story. So, it's 10 words. It's

really not one sentence, but it's get curious.

Lean in. That's lean into the availability, talk to people, go out and engage with the world, you know, because the narrative story is where it's at.

Try stuff. Prototype your way forward.

Then tell the story of what you're learning. You're becoming. Pay

learning. You're becoming. Pay

attention. Reflect on what you're learning. You know, hey, how's it going?

learning. You know, hey, how's it going?

Oh, yeah. I g I binge watched Game of Thrones all night last night again.

What' you do? That's not that interesting as opposed to like, well, I was talking about Robin. She's talking

about there not there's 14% of the lives I'm living as well as the ones I'm not.

I'm really thinking about that. They

kind of go, oh, say more. What's going

on with that? So, if you're leaning into and living your life and paying attention to it, get curious. Talk to

people. Try stuff. tell your story and it becomes and keep going a circular pattern. I'm

telling I'm telling my story. People say

that's very interesting. Have you

thought about talking to so and so or this trying this or this? And it just keeps going. You know, your curiosity

keeps going. You know, your curiosity leads to more engagement which leads to more prototypes which leads to more stories. Once you get that flywheel

stories. Once you get that flywheel running, um you know, it runs by itself and and it feels like, hey, I'm I'm making progress. I'm going somewhere. I'm not

progress. I'm going somewhere. I'm not

exactly sure where it is, but I'm pretty sure I'm going in the right direction.

Well, I think it's really cool to just allow yourself to imagine that there are all of these things that you can do.

Yeah.

And you're you're going to die with the to-do list and the experiences and all of the things that you could have become regardless Yeah.

of whether you mope on the couch or you use these principles.

You got to move from FOMO to jumbo. From

the fear of missing out to the joy of missing out. So people think the reason

missing out. So people think the reason I have FOMO, right? Fear missing out.

Some cool thing goes by like, you know, oh, oh wow, oh, we should have done that instead. Shoot, I missed it, says the

instead. Shoot, I missed it, says the person who has FOMO. The phrase, I missed it, acts as though the world is a scarce place and there's barely enough to make an it of your life. And if you missed a little bit of an it, you are

now diminished.

Wrong.

Seeing something cool go by you haven't got time to do just remind you the world is a target-rich place and you are a highly capacious creature who could be interested in so many more things than

you have time for. Isn't that great? So

get used to get a comfortable attitude toward wonderful things passing you by.

Just reminds you the world is a cool place to live and enjoy that which is in front of you. Look, he talks me into writing a book again. And I just we just wrote this third book and I said, "Oh my god, if I do that, the next four years

of my life are completely spoken for. Do

I really want to do that from 71 to 75?

A year or two to write a book and I get a year or two to talk to Mel about it."

You know, like, do I really want to do that at this point in my life? Well,

sure. And it comes in packages of yes or no. And the yes to this book is got

no. And the yes to this book is got about 75 nos in it for things I'm not doing right now.

Yeah.

And I'm perfectly happy living into the life I've chosen. Choose your life.

Bill Bernett and Dave Evans, what are your parting words?

You can do this and I really hope you do.

You deserve it.

At the end there were a class I always used to quote be the change you want to see in the world. But yeah, my my wish for for folks is just try something. Try

something really small and see if you can find that little piece of joy or that just like a pointer towards something that that wakes you up. And uh

and we know you can do it. We know you can. Well, my wish for you is that I'm

can. Well, my wish for you is that I'm at the table at the night that you do your waitering and that when you have your opening exhibit for the paintings you don't think the world cares about

that we're all there to clap for you.

I will absolutely invite you.

Okay.

I I'm going to I'm going to make you I'm going to be there whether I'm invited tonight. Now, I know Dave will text me

tonight. Now, I know Dave will text me and tell me even if you don't. No,

seriously. I love you too. I love the work you do. Thank you for the difference that you make in all of our lives. Thank you for coming today. Thank

lives. Thank you for coming today. Thank

you for writing this blockbuster of a book now more than ever. I know we are all searching for more meaning.

Yeah.

And we really I really am grateful that you're giving us the blueprint to find it where we are. Thank you.

Thank you. You're a dear woman. This was

really sweet.

Yeah, we really appreciate appreciate the opportunity. It was a great

the opportunity. It was a great conversation.

It really was. And thank you. I want to thank you for spending time with us and for making the time to invest in yourself, to listen to something that's going to open up possibilities for your

life and your future because you deserve, as Bill and Dave said, to live a meaningful life. And this conversation has given you not just tools, but the

permission and the encouragement to do so. And in case no one else tells you

so. And in case no one else tells you today as your friend, I want to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And as Bill and Dave said,

better life. And as Bill and Dave said, do it for crying out loud. All right,

I'm going to welcome you into the next [music] episode the moment you hit play.

I'll see you there. And thank you for watching all the way to the end. I

really appreciate you being here. I'm so

excited to see what your wild card is.

And I know you're thinking, "All right, Mel, what's the next video I should watch?" It's definitely this one. You're

watch?" It's definitely this one. You're

going to love it. And I'll be there to welcome you in the moment you hit play.