How to Make Content People Give a Sh*t about w/ Oren John

I always talk about how everyone should have content that's either value content or entertainment content. If it's not either of those two things, like it doesn't work. Meet Orin John, the

doesn't work. Meet Orin John, the internet's creative director. Orin has

become a go-to strategist for brands like Red Bull and Greg Goose, leaving his mark on some of the most innovative marketing campaigns of the last decade.

After years of helping brands break through the noise, Orin is now redefining how we think about content, brand, and storytelling in the age of short attention spans. Number one goal for brands get one type of content that works. Find a thing that has some level

works. Find a thing that has some level of scalability before you think about anything else. Like get the one thing.

anything else. Like get the one thing.

In today's episode, Orin breaks down the key ingredients behind content and brand strategies that actually scale.

People were talking about, "How do you get huge on social media?" And I'm like, "All right, well, there's like a barometer of these different things that really matter." Like, is there value in

really matter." Like, is there value in your content? Is it watchable and as

your content? Is it watchable and as good as television from entertainment value? You get that personality value

value? You get that personality value plus those other two things. The higher

those bars are, the higher your ceiling is.

And why playing it safe is the quickest way to be invisible online. People find

their one format, their one video. A lot

of people preach this. I want to make the same video to find your one thing.

that doesn't actually make you interesting. That sets you up for one

interesting. That sets you up for one period of time and then an end of your success. If I don't have like two flops

success. If I don't have like two flops on the timeline every week, I'm not doing my job. Orin's going to map out how to turn your brand into something that people trust, follow, and buy from.

Let's lock in. Come on. I want to start us off, Orin, with talking about what is brand storytelling look like in 2025.

We've seen a lot of change, I'd say, over this year, especially now with all this AI content flooding our pages.

Like, what is this going to look like going forward? What is brand

going forward? What is brand storytelling looking like?

Yeah. I guess nowadays you have this you basically make any creative idea come to life at low budget which means you're really it's like ideas and distribution is everything and I think a lot of people are still caught in the I have to make things like this or post look like

that you're seeing all these smaller brands bigger brands whoever's actually tapped in be like oh we can create as much assets as we want we can make all these really interesting things but the core idea is it's basically it's TV and

it's journalism it's just been now is now in the brand sphere right like I always talk about how everyone should have content that's either value content or entertainment content. If it's not either of those two things, like it doesn't work. You need to either be

doesn't work. You need to either be giving someone something that's savable that they're like, "This is going to change my life or help me." Or you need to be like, "I'm making you funny." But

the funny entertainment level is like has to be as good as what you're competing with. Netflix, what'sever on

competing with. Netflix, what'sever on the main screen, whatever else is in the feed. And so brands, it's the same exact

feed. And so brands, it's the same exact [ __ ] but people are starting to nail it. seeing, hey, my skit to unveil my

it. seeing, hey, my skit to unveil my clothing brand is as tight as the most entertaining asset that's on there. Or,

hey, how I'm going to present my hotel group is I'm going to be the tour guide for Monaco or whatever they're they're based at, and they're making content around that. So, I think it's like the

around that. So, I think it's like the best era ever to actually be trying to compete with a brand story.

These TV series I've been seeing pop up like crazy. I just was telling Costas

like crazy. I just was telling Costas this a underground artist who maybe had like 15,000 followers on Instagram did one of the coolest releases for a song and it's like their band and they're at like a diner. I don't know if you've maybe I don't know if I've seen that

maybe you've seen this but they're so they're at a diner and it feels like it's a movie feels like a movie skit and they're like talking about the concept for the song and like why they made the song basically all these little details and then it turns out that it's like turns into like a music video and

they're like you know all drumming and stuff and I was like this is one of the highest pieces of quality content I've seen and it's for a younger artist who's just kind of coming up but it's like a TV show. It felt like I was watching a

TV show. It felt like I was watching a show.

Yeah, cuz that's the bar. But as you guys know it's like cool. You get a couple FX3s.

Mhm. you get two dudes some light and you like everyone's always like, "Oh, this is so high production. I can't

afford this." I'm like, "Man, I want all these shoots where it's like a guy and it's 500 bucks and it's two cameras and they can get so much done." It really is the creative idea and and you're competing against people that have bookmarked so much quality stuff and

watched so much YouTube and have just nailed it down. And if you're not operating at that level and you're spending all that extra money, you're like destined to lose.

It's It's funny too because even with this camera that we have at the end of the table, this is a Sony FX3. It's four

grand, right? That thing can compete with some of the biggest, most expensive cameras in the game. And really, for the most part, no one is going to tell a difference from a $60,000 camera. For

the most part, like enough difference to make a a matter on the actual algorithm or like when you're actually on the feed because really it's going to be the shot. Like you'll see, okay, we start

shot. Like you'll see, okay, we start with an angled down shot or it's wide or it's a car mount. You see, like it's about capturing attention at a minimum bar, not about like the highest production wins.

What would you say is more important, creative or the actual quality of the product?

I think it's it's 50/50. Like I think everyone's always like, "Oh, which is you can succeed X or Y." And it's like I almost view every one of these charts, even that value entertainment chart is like, cool, you can succeed with just value or just marketing or just

entertainment or just product, but then you really go viral like with all of them together. One of my favorite anidos

them together. One of my favorite anidos is people always talking about how do you get huge on social media? And I'm

like, all right, well, there's like a barometer of these different things that really matter. Like, is there value to

really matter. Like, is there value to your content is a huge part of it. Like

I look at Nara Smith, like the Tik Tocker. It's like, okay, is there value

Tocker. It's like, okay, is there value in your content? Is it watchable and as good as television from an entertainment value? she's teaching you how to do

value? she's teaching you how to do something. The like the production, the

something. The like the production, the look is as good. And then also then there's just the like either the another chart of like likability and hotness of like the person if men, women, and and some that doesn't always have to be like you're extremely good-looking, but are

you charismatic? Do you resonate? And so

you charismatic? Do you resonate? And so

you get that personality value plus those other two things. It's like the higher those bars are, the higher your ceiling is.

She's also in crazy, right?

Do you feel like you need something like that uh to stand out?

Not only does she need to stand out, but again, all of it elevates, right? Right?

And having like a signature style, like when you see her, you know she's going to be in couture, maybe gets a couple extra comments. When you see um like the

extra comments. When you see um like the dude who chops wood all the time, has the suspenders, you know it's him. A

signature look, but it doesn't necessarily have to be an expensive look, you know? Uh but it's like, yeah, what stands out? What what gets comments? Like what works? But all those

comments? Like what works? But all those things like branding. It's 100% brand.

The same thing every single day.

But can you succeed without those things? Yes. And I always look at like

things? Yes. And I always look at like there's just a ceiling. It's like

everyone's so obsessed with I need all these things for this to work for my for me or for my brand. Like absolutely not the case. You need those things if

the case. You need those things if you're like, "Oh, I need to be able to go from 20 million views a month to 50 million views a month." It's like solve problem one first, right? And get into this like new world.

What brands would you say are doing this the best in 2025?

Uh there's a brand called Cold Culture that I really like that um they're doing like skit-based uh kind of Instagram ads. They're just killing it. They had

ads. They're just killing it. They had

the one that went really viral where it was like the guy gets thrown up against the wall like he's getting frisked and then they kind of frisk him and the people are inside a window like watching this happen and it's the fit. Okay. And

it was just like like and all the all their content is like extremely creative like that and they're a brand that like not a household name, not a whatever. Um

but like you can just see like just millions of views, millions of views have built the whole brand off like creative short form video. I think

that's excellent. And then someone like House of Errors who I think is like taken art direction and like made it the core of their brand where it's like you want to see the visuals of the campaign.

They're telling the story like all all around it. It's interesting. Um and the

around it. It's interesting. Um and the last one that I use this example a lot for outside of fashion as a fashion brand to reference is Dutes if you've seen them. So, they're like a streetear

seen them. So, they're like a streetear brand that has uh like comedy creators almost like on their feet. They'll have

like a guy and a girl. They do skits, but then what they're doing is they're scaling it, which is what like smart brands are doing where it's like they have different accounts. Like they have these different characters, the founders a character, these people doing skits are a character, they have other people coming in and out account by location

for where their physical stores are. So,

it's like here's the Lisbon account, here's the UK account, we just opened a UK store. And then the characters like

UK store. And then the characters like interact and overlap with each other in some cases and don't, but that's a world. And I keep looking at like

world. And I keep looking at like skit-based creation is a great way to sell fashion and they have a lot of like a male female dynamic to the skits which always kind of hits but like that's also an amazing way to sell cosmetics or to

sell CPG like food stuff and that uh genre hasn't tapped into what they're doing at all.

You bring up world can we talk about world building a little bit and how a brand can do that successfully?

Yeah.

Yeah. What the heck does that even mean?

Tell people that don't know. They have

no idea what world building is.

So everyone thinks like brand content like almost linear. Like I'm going to see I have an Instagram account. I have

a Tik Tok account. what do I actually say on that? But when you look at a world, it's like your brand is really a TV show. And this is like an exercise I

TV show. And this is like an exercise I do like at brands and done it online where it's like cool, let's actually map out your brand world. And so from a TV show perspective, who are my characters?

Like who are the people appearing on screen? Like duruits has male creator,

screen? Like duruits has male creator, female creator, multiple regional creators, and the CEO as characters.

They appear in the content. They're

there in person on events. They're on

the website. They're models and whatever. Those are all people that are

whatever. Those are all people that are part of the brand story, right? Um, and

you'll see brands come up with this later. Like, uh, a brand I really like

later. Like, uh, a brand I really like is called Kosis. It's a like a skincare makeup brand.

My girlfriend does a brand with them every month.

So, their founder became a creator as an extension. She wasn't an influencer to

extension. She wasn't an influencer to start, but then became one because they knew that that's an important part of like the story was to have someone that is aspirational or relatable or whatever the core thing is. Uh, to be able to then tell that story. That's a character

of the brand. In the same way an influencer is, right? Your characters

extend out. But then you add that to, okay, where's our brand like located?

Like, is there a is it a set? Where do

we film content? Do we have an office?

What's part of this? Our storefronts,

the pop-up experiences, that's like the world they interact with physically and people either see online or interact with in the real world. And then there's the like put it on a timeline like events of, hey, we have releases, we have campaigns, we have collaboration,

and you get those things up top. And

then you add in plot, which is basically, okay, what are we announcing?

Do we actually have do we have beef? You

know, I always like to call out uh like Brian Johnson, he has a brand strategy that positions himself against death.

And so it's like he has an enemy, and the enemy is a huge part of that content, right? Um, and so I think like

content, right? Um, and so I think like even like Liquid Death, they're positioning against thirst, quote unquote, but really it's a counterculture positioning. But you kind

counterculture positioning. But you kind of add those plot lines of like what is the thing we should interact with? What

are events that we can create? What are

things we can tap into in monoculture?

It's a Super Bowl, whatever. And this

big cascading thing of influencers and our team members and locations and all that is the brand world. So anytime

anyone interacts with it, it's like, does that experience tell your brand story the way you want? And the bigger the world goes, the more people interact with it.

And when does world building come into play when building a brand? Is that

something you need to think about at the very conception of building a brand?

I think a lot of people overthink um what they need to do to start. Like

starting is to me is really about like product market fit, content market fit u where it's like hey do we have a product people actually like let's get that into people's hands. Content market fits then

people's hands. Content market fits then the exercise of like okay can we make videos or carousels or YouTube or live streaming whatever it is that resonates ads with enough people that we can actually sell some stuff. Solve that

first and then evolve into a gay brand world. I feel like a lot of people do

world. I feel like a lot of people do think you can think about all this from the start, but like should you probably do those first things first and then be like, "All right, there's something now.

Let me take this next step probably." Or

else you're spending a lot of time on something that might not resonate.

I feel like it's almost like you're thinking about the really fun [ __ ] where like when it comes like productivity, you're like, "Oh, I want my notebook to be like color coordinated." It's like, well, you're not actually doing the work 100%.

Who's color coordinated?

Yeah. Yeah. No, this is creators are like in the same boat where it's just like, "Oh, I want to do all these things. I want to try." It's like, yeah,

things. I want to try." It's like, yeah, get fit, you know, first and then think about your personal narrative.

When I think about world building too, the first thing that comes to my mind for a creator is like Casey Neistat back in the day. You had New York as like this playground. Then you had Marlin,

this playground. Then you had Marlin, the UPS driver, and you had his friends that lived in the building and eventually Peter, what's his name was in there? Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. And it was so interesting to see like these characters popping into the show and you never knew each day what we were going to get or who was going to be a part of the problem today or like he'd, you know, run into Max's room, Max Joseph would be like upstairs and be like, "Hey, I need your help like

writing this thing." And then it just built out into this crazy cast and crew that are all on this show that was the vlog every day.

And like I think Instagram niches are and Tik Tok niches are very like that.

They're almost like I I've used the metaphor of like the CW before where it's like people will cross over into episodes and it's like cool like marketing Instagram where it's like Ashwin and myself and Beimma and the woman like stuff about advertising and Dar Denny and all these people. It's

like when we we all know each other, you all start to overlap and then people kind of feel like oh I'm watching this channel. Oh, this is like a crossover

channel. Oh, this is like a crossover episode with X and Y. Like that's a real good way to look at it.

So true. And we've had literally comments like that where they're like, "My favorite YouTuber is now like hanging out with 505 or something." And

it's fun to like, you know, to like merge those worlds together.

People think that way. I think the best example of it, the people I think have crushed it the most with this is Tarte Cosmetics with the cuz they basically created reality TV on TikTok and arounding it where it's like not only like they created Bravo and like that's like the most powerful of TV in my

opinion is reality TV where it's like, "Hey, we actually we're bringing all these personalities out. We're putting

them on our show. There's competition.

There's reality. There's all those people posting about their Tarte Island experience." And then there's the

experience." And then there's the commentary layer. There's the Bravo Andy

commentary layer. There's the Bravo Andy layer of like here's all these people being like this is terrible. Like this

is whack. This is other she shouldn't have said this to her. And I'm like now you've created like literally a reality TV ecosystem as a brand and is monetized on Tik Tok shop. It's like affiliate monetized. It's it's genius.

monetized. It's it's genius.

God, it's so crazy. I remember during that Tarte trip like even the girls that didn't get the specific the the premiere gift, they're making Tik Toks like, "Yo, I kind of pissed I didn't get the bag.

Got the little lip gloss." You know, that's selling people, dude. People are

going to buy more Target. And then it's just awareness 100%.

And then it becomes aspirational to like get involved on trip.

Like I'll do a free brand new floor tart. Hopefully they see it and then I

tart. Hopefully they see it and then I get invited.

Well, then it's publicity then it's like the whole thing of why you want to get on reality TV in the first place. You

can do the club walkthrough circuit and it's just like this all this kind of stuff. But we're at the cusp. That's

stuff. But we're at the cusp. That's

what I love about like a brand like Tarte. I don't know like the extreme

Tarte. I don't know like the extreme details like they weren't like in the most amazing shape as like a brand before this. Goalie is probably a better

before this. Goalie is probably a better example. Like goalie was like in huge

example. Like goalie was like in huge trouble as a brand. It's a huge Tik Tok shop like supplement brand, but they were like fiscally in huge trouble. Like

Tik Tok shop was their like last resort essentially and like pulled them out of that and it's just like hey this is such an opportunity when it's like fringe brands brands that like need to do it or really shooting for something special are doing it but then no one everyone

else is like still like behind this wave. I feel like there's just still so

wave. I feel like there's just still so much more room to go inside this new world.

Warren is just been so much game but I have a special announcement for the rocks. Okay, what would you do with

rocks. Okay, what would you do with $100,000? Now, that is the golden

$100,000? Now, that is the golden question on the day, okay? Because Art

List is giving away $100,000 to a lucky winner out there who has a crazy idea that you want to get made. And it's so simple. All you got to do is go to the

simple. All you got to do is go to the top link in the description, fill out your idea, send it into them, and they're going to pick one lucky winner, and they're going to give you a $100,000 to go make your wildest idea happen.

Now, I'm sitting here thinking, maybe we like podcast Antarctica with that 100K challenge. I don't know. My idea is

challenge. I don't know. My idea is probably not going to be as good as yours. Whatever your idea is, you get

yours. Whatever your idea is, you get one good idea. That's all you can submit. You can't submit 20 ideas and

submit. You can't submit 20 ideas and you're going to do it in the top link in the description. I hope one of the rocks

the description. I hope one of the rocks comes out with this 100K challenge and maybe, who knows, give me a call. Maybe

we'll be a part of it. I'm so stoked though. So, go apply, run, get your best

though. So, go apply, run, get your best idea and let's lock it in. All right,

let's keep it going. How has your Tik Tok been performing as there's been so many more? I think 26 million videos are

many more? I think 26 million videos are getting uploaded daily to Tik Tok. Like,

what have you noticed cuz you crush on Instagram? super curious if like you've

Instagram? super curious if like you've noticed that maybe it's dipped a little bit or kind of what your experience has been like.

Yeah, so it's all over. So I notic there's like there's two there's say three types of like good Tik Tok style creators like one is that people that almost like have their own algorithm.

Look at like Victoria Paris, uh Chris Hayne, like some of these guy where people were like you watch their videos, you get shown way more of their videos.

You're part of their life. Like Leo

Skppy, Becca Bloom, where it's like that is a creator where like they are their own vortex. People are getting brought

own vortex. People are getting brought in because they want to spend time with them. And that is like the most best

them. And that is like the most best type of creator to be and it es and flows based on if that person's like people are still into that person a year later, two years later in their arc. Uh

I'm never going to be that person. I

know a lot of things. I'm a valuebased creator. People don't care about me or

creator. People don't care about me or my life in that same way. they're not

trying to tune in to me being like, "Here's my new cutlery." Like, not gonna happen. I don't have that vortex. But

happen. I don't have that vortex. But

then there's like the valuebased creator where it's like, "Okay, I see their content. I like it because it's either

content. I like it because it's either entertaining or it's valuable." It's

like, but I don't really care as much about them. And so, I'm in that mode

about them. And so, I'm in that mode where your your stuff is way more hit or miss. Not all your videos are going to

miss. Not all your videos are going to hit. You're really your your game is

hit. You're really your your game is like, am I can I consistently put up at least like half of my content getting somewhere like where I want to go. And

I'm in that bucket. It's going pretty well, but it's a fight. I fight way more on TikTok to do it than Instagram. And

then you have people that are just like, "Hey, I'm uh like I'm just trying to get I'm throwing a lot of content out there and I just want a massive viral hit one out of every 10 or 20, which is a huge amount of creators." That still works.

You can still like generate your revenue, build your stuff off that, but you're just hunting for virality. Um,

but yeah, Tik Tok is way tougher cuz I'm not that like same charismatic type. And

also because it's less lucrative. Like I

make way more on Instagram, even YouTube now that it's like, "All right, if it's not driving as much business, it's almost an afterthought." And I don't want to build and be that other type of creator. So I've kind got to think of

creator. So I've kind got to think of it. But it's funny. People are always

it. But it's funny. People are always complaining about numbers and stuff like I don't know. Like I'm still putting up like probably a million view video roughly every week on like Tik Tok. Like

even though a bunch of them will still get 5K and it's like I just look at like what's that baseline like can can you still get hits is really like the metric I look at.

I'm so with you. And it's completely changed my approach to Instagram. And I'

I've been open about this being like I think if I post 30 times a month or even 40 times a month like I'm seeing so much more success than posting once every two weeks. And like the creator brain in me

weeks. And like the creator brain in me is like take more time. uh you know you know take a deep breath. The business

person to me is like [ __ ] volume.

Post as many times as you possibly can.

Quality is pretty subjective and most of the stuff sucks. Like most people's stuff sucks. So it's like if you just

stuff sucks. So it's like if you just hit a baseline, you have a well-lit thing. You're saying good stuff. There's

thing. You're saying good stuff. There's

a higher chance that you actually will hit a triple or a double instead of like these people that are sitting at at home plate. They're just like waiting for

plate. They're just like waiting for It's also like experimental. People get

really caught up um especially people I meet who are like of a similar creator size to me where they're like, "Hey, well I don't want to put out something that flops and obviously flops." And I'm like, "Well, my whole [ __ ] is experimental." Like the whole reason

experimental." Like the whole reason we're here is because I was like I'm going to keep experimenting, keep trying. And like you don't ever get any

trying. And like you don't ever get any better. Like people find their one

better. Like people find their one format, their one video. And a lot of people preach this. I'm going to make the same video, find your one thing.

That doesn't actually make you interesting. That sets you up for one

interesting. That sets you up for one period of time and then an end of your success. And like if you really want to

success. And like if you really want to be interesting, you have to be constantly fishing for what these new things are. You need a couple formats.

things are. You need a couple formats.

Need to be able to adapt to what's happening and have people still like you. And so I am constantly like, can I

you. And so I am constantly like, can I do this type of thing? Can I do that type of thing? How do I make it my own?

And like I'll put if I don't have like two flops on the timeline every week, I'm not doing my job.

Let's go, baby. Gary talked about that literally on our show. He was like, "Most creators, you get something that works. They find a specific format and

works. They find a specific format and then they beat it till it's dead." And

then they're like, you know, year a year from now, they're like, "Well, I didn't adapt. I didn't try anything new during

adapt. I didn't try anything new during that period of time. I didn't exercise any new type of muscle." And then when the the success is kind of gone, you're sitting there like, "Okay, well, what do I do now?" And I think you're so right.

And it's something that like I mean, dude, that's I preach it to people. Like

that is what you got to do. You got to be testing and learning and seeing like it's an experiment. I could give a [ __ ] if something gets like a thousand views.

I just know now the great data. Won't

try that again or try something a little different if I really liked it.

You got to give it some shots. That's

the other thing is people will try one thing and doesn't work and I'm like it's four to six each time. I wouldn't like I really tried to put travel into my content. I was like I need to make

content. I was like I need to make travel vlogs. Like travel is going to be

travel vlogs. Like travel is going to be a thing for me. Like I want this to work. My first three or four were like

work. My first three or four were like didn't work at all but five and six started to hit and then now it's like I can put up consistent good content. And

that's the other thing. You got to like stick with [ __ ] And that's hard. It's

your it's all in your head. Everything

for creators and internet [ __ ] is so in brand owners and creators heads. You

bring up formats. Can you talk about different formats that people can use on social to see success?

Yeah, 100%. Uh, so one one I love on TikTok I encourage people to do if you want to yap, basically if you want to just talk to the camera, nothing else is like what I call a um it's just it's basically like a like a

strong take like you're going to say I I want like in absolute you say something.

Um this guy Christian CB writes copies like the king of this on TikTok where he'll be like blank is the best coffee shop in Milwaukee. like like Tampa is the best city in the [ __ ] south, whatever. And then he'll go justify it.

whatever. And then he'll go justify it.

You basically get people into this zone where they're like, I really agree with you or I completely disagree with you.

And it's easiest to do that like the least nuanced way is to just say one thing in an absolute because no one talks in absolutes anymore. That's one

of the things about the content.

Everyone's like, I'm too afraid to offend. I don't want to call this good

offend. I don't want to call this good or bad. Who are you to say X or Y? And

or bad. Who are you to say X or Y? And

so everyone's become neutered. Then when

you actually hear a strong take and you have a visceral reaction of like, I love this guy or I don't like it. That's what

makes good content. So, that's one format I think is um is really really solid and like good to partake in uh that almost anyone can work in kind of right away. And then carousels are

right away. And then carousels are really hot right now. I think that's going to have like a bit of an ending era because it's content like AI can make and anyone can make it. But this

idea that you're going to tell a story, anyone's story, your story, like a hero's journey through a slides is the other easiest one whether it's for your brand or not. But like take your brand story or take your story or take someone else's brand story and literally like

type hero's journey into Google and be like I'm going to make a slide for every stage of the journey and I'm going to carry people through that. It's another

really easy one if you don't want to be on camera.

Those have been doing super well for us.

But it's going to be I just feel like since everyone I just watched I know so many people were like I make AI carousels. I use the same sans safar

carousels. I use the same sans safar font. I basically like stopped posting

font. I basically like stopped posting mine u because I was just like man this is really like anyone can do it and you see they'll get the views they get the likes but I look at it's almost like the new Buzzfeed where it's like hey you scroll through these you get your news you get your

story but the resonance isn't there none of us had any kinship with BuzzFeed we don't give a [ __ ] about it it's like any of those news sites puck buzzfeed it's like no one actually has any resonance with them they just like will read the content when it comes in front of them and so it's like I was like cool maybe

I'll do it I'll put my face on it whatever I'm like no it's still it doesn't matter I'm like there has to be like that's a format that's like completely diluted and it puts up like basically fake views for you. Yeah.

Oh, interesting. So,

so you don't you don't think that they're like just out of curiosity like I have had like my highest performing things have been the carousels and I noticed too uh shares, comments like

there's so much higher engagement than so do you still think we need to be you know going deeper into I say diversify it like here's the thing is like seven days a week. I look at if it's content anyone can do it's hard to have a moat and so there's early so some

of the people that stood out really well early with carousels like like Outlander crushed it with carousels uh and because he had a perspective where it's like here's my perspective on fashion here's a lens it's a lens people want to build

a kinship to but now it's there's so much of it out there that you don't you can't really develop your lens because it's just showing up in a feed you probably from so you don't follow the person and you're just interacting with it and it's just purely that snippet and

so I really like it's literally the news feed for to me and so if you are doing something with it it has to extremely special or it's just going to get ultra saturated like will it exist forever?

Can you put up views forever? Can it

help achieve your objectives? Sure. Is

it what you're going to build a brand around? I think that's way harder.

around? I think that's way harder.

And do you think that is video specifically? Like is video the thing

specifically? Like is video the thing that creators and brands need to be pouring?

Yeah. Cuz it's like anything with a moat, anything where it's like, okay, explain that. Explain the moat theory.

explain that. Explain the moat theory.

So the idea that can anyone else make this, right? Because they will. And then

this, right? Because they will. And then

how hard is it? And the harder it is and can they make it like the more time you have before it becomes less saturated, less powerful. And like I look at this

less powerful. And like I look at this like I have people that like clone my content. They use my same concepts, use

content. They use my same concepts, use my same hooks, they use my same whatever. And you can do that for like

whatever. And you can do that for like marketing educational green screen content. You don't need to have my

content. You don't need to have my background, my history. I have very little. There will be people who are

little. There will be people who are funnier, hotter, smarter than me who can then just basically copy it. And so that had a moat for a certain amount of time, but then it was over. So it's like, all right, what can't they do now? All

right. Well, they can't travel, especially the way I travel. like I can go to China and people will bring me to the depths of the where people make the lab diamonds cuz like I am connected like that and I was like all right now I have that eventually people will

probably catch up there so what's the next thing with the moat and so I always just look at like even if you do have a carousel what is that production level thing or that valuedriven thing that someone else couldn't just copy with text and that's much harder than it is

in video you look at the uh the the mode of someone like Becca Bloom where it's like she's has such a prosperous she's so rich has all this stuff no one can catch up with that no one's going to be like oh I can just get there tomorrow her mode is They're basically infinite.

Have you seen her stuff?

No. Crocodiles in the moat though is what I'm hearing, dude.

So, Becca Bloom is unbelievably wealthy.

Okay. But she makes content that she's not trying to like she flaunts her wealth because it's in her content, but it's not like, how would you explain her?

Yeah. It's just she's just living such a life of opulence and she's so earnestly trying to engage you like just about normal stuff, you know? Like, hey, I'm making dinner, but I happen to be making dinner with my Christophel egg and like with my cat's caviar. And but again,

that's the motive is that no one's no one can go replicate that lifestyle, right? Yeah.

right? Yeah.

That's what I mean, that's also what made like Nar Smith [ __ ] so crazy. The

kitchen look crazy. The ingredients are nuts.

Say we're going to make licorice from scratch like and so you can so again like the mode is super high. Even I look at like Thor,

super high. Even I look at like Thor, the wood chopping guy. It's like cool, you got a tree, you got axe, you charismatic, it's a lot of things. You

got to be yolked.

But all those things kind of add up to that moat. And so I look at like and you

that moat. And so I look at like and you could have moes around intelligence and formats and cleverness and generalness as well and like unique ideas, but that's where I feel like carousels has the least moat.

Do you believe a creator can be both value and entertaining?

100%. I think that's the skill you kind of have to have both. That's where I look at like my biggest series is this product versus brand series I do where I identify a category. I'll be like I'm doing fragrances in like two days where it's like all right, are you buying it because it's worth money? Are you buying

it because you're buying into the branding? But like I there's some value

branding? But like I there's some value there because people have to think critically about marketing and branding and campaigns. But it's entertainment

and campaigns. But it's entertainment because I'm like talking [ __ ] and making jokes and like that's peak content for me because it's both because people are learning something and they're laughing or they're getting angry. And so like so I always look at like that's like your

top of funnel ideally is probably is that combination of it. Uh I think also people need to be multiaceted. So many

value creators are so focused on value that they don't have a personality and no one cares about you. And I think that's why like my personality is polarized. Not everyone agrees with it

polarized. Not everyone agrees with it necessarily, but it's why I can command a lot more people to an event than like a uh a just a purely valuedriven creator because people like assume it's going to be interesting or cool.

If someone is just in that valuebased content and they want to kind of get into the entertainment space, do you have any tips for how to kind of merge those world?

Just do skits. Like I started with skits. I would just whenever I was with

skits. I would just whenever I was with another creator, we'd always do a skit.

So I did a skit with Zack Kravitz, who's another like very serious creator. Uh

and we never done anything funny at all.

We like, you know, we just did a like a Max for Crack style like skit about starting a brand. It got like hell of views. Um, but I was like, skits is the

views. Um, but I was like, skits is the easiest way to show people you have personality. And I've done skits now

personality. And I've done skits now with Ashwin. I like I'm always trying to

with Ashwin. I like I'm always trying to like find that if something's funny cuz then it's like, okay, these people don't take themselves too seriously. You see

another side. And skits are so easy to create cuz they're all format. They're

all like, okay, I see this person did that. And they make a joke and they look

that. And they make a joke and they look like this at the end and just do it.

I mean, that is what's performed the best for any sort of branded content we've done. It's a it's a skit of sorts.

we've done. It's a it's a skit of sorts.

I mean, helps that we're just hilarious, right?

Yeah. That also helps just having that to sprinkle in once every even it's like once every two weeks like that opens the floodgate cuz then people like oh I kind of want to know a little bit more about it you know and then then there's like the vlog element of like a lot of people like hey my my day in my life isn't that interesting. I'm like that I'm like on

interesting. I'm like that I'm like on [ __ ] Zoom and pacing about angrily on the phone like nine hours a day. It's

not that exciting. Uh but like if you look at okay well how do I present that and you like but if I say it like that all of a sudden it became funny and it's just like come with me for a day to like pace around nine times like rep four sigs and like be on Zoom you know.

Another format that has gained a lot of popularity is building in public. Yeah.

Do you feel like it's played out at this point?

I do.

Okay.

I think you can still succeed. Again,

anything has played out. You can still have some incredible take on it and do it, but I don't think it's that exciting to consumers anymore. I feel like two years ago, a lot of people wanted to have brands and didn't know how to do

it. Now, you see 18,000 creators being

it. Now, you see 18,000 creators being like, "Here's how you do it. If you if you wanted to make that jump, like you've got the tools." And so, now I feel like people are like, "Okay, just another one of those." So, I think if you do it, it has to be like a really interesting way. What I don't think is

interesting way. What I don't think is played out around that is like alternative spaces. One of the ones I

alternative spaces. One of the ones I saw blow up blow up recently was a guy starting a coffee shop and then a guy doing like a burger cart.

Um where I was like cool this is like untraditional. It's not like I'm

untraditional. It's not like I'm starting a clothing brand. I'm starting

a drink company. It's like hey I'm building a brick and mortar. Here's how

here's the economics of how it works. So

I do think it's like the more off thebeaten path it is probably the more interesting it is and you can still succeed with it. But for anyone who's like I'm going to start my clothing brand and build it in public like truly no one cares.

It's like the beans guy on TikTok. I

love that guy's you know what I'm talking about. the UK guy and he's like

talking about. the UK guy and he's like you he puts like a potato and beans and he gives the first one free every day and he has like a line that's a mile long. You've never seen this guy. It's

long. You've never seen this guy. It's

all POV with like a GoPro chest mount.

It's that's the crazy part about this. We

would all have seen things we would assume everyone would know that like people at this table just have no idea like that's how wide and vast this this world is. God,

world is. God, you've been able to consult for a lot of brands at like the highest level. Is

there something that you find they are constantly missing the mark on when it comes to building a strong brand? Yeah.

Well, I think a lot of people just struggling with how fast content moves in this new world and like enabling those teams and then the concept of scale. Like usually what I end up having

scale. Like usually what I end up having the most conversation with is like, hey, we're we're putting out this content, it's going okay, and now we're we're trying to make it better. And it's like, well, actually really your goal isn't to make it better. Your goal is like you actually need like all these different

accounts, all these different verticals, all you need to turn your operation into a media operation. And then that isn't just social. That ties into your

just social. That ties into your performance. It ties into like like a

performance. It ties into like like a conversation. I have a a chart I use

conversation. I have a a chart I use index a lot now that's uh very controversial where it's like cool like it's like a circle is ven diagram not it's a circle it's like marketing and then inside smaller circle content budget that's like how everyone thinks

about it and then the real answer is like it's a circle and the circle is content and inside it is advertising of the content is like a smaller bubble and if you change your framework to think that way that every single thing you

seed and giveaway is content every how you optimize your retail experience for users to be able to film it is content your creators your things in all those assets and then you then run ads on the best performing of that. That is like a

a better way. Um, but that's like a paradigm shift for like a new a generation of marketers is like not equipped for it.

There's still billions of dollars in print in [ __ ] that's out of home for news media journalism. Have you have you tried to read one of these websites and read one of these news websites and a popup comes and an interstitial. I'm

like this is the worst.

You got to subscribe. I'm like dude should have been a carousel%.

That's where all that goes, right? And

you'll see more and more like people are getting their news from. I'm just I'm just going to scroll a carousel. The

next the next like six to 12 months are going to be very interesting to see if they if you know you should do a little thing at can. You need to go up and be like I need to talk to you all guys.

Well, that's one of our the talk we're giving at Collins Ash and I are giving are a lot about that. It's like it's we're actually it's kind of like a meta talk. It's almost like all right, here's

talk. It's almost like all right, here's kind of what monoculture looks like and then here's what uh what we think how con should have pivoted or should be pivoting now and how people are approaching that. You know, one of the

approaching that. You know, one of the interesting ones on speaking of con is uh is I was looking at all the events like who's doing an interesting event and it's like very limited and but one of the most interesting was LinkedIn which is uh a rare I'm not being out

here like LinkedIn's marketing is amazing but their event there today on LinkedIn uh look at Ultravaluable Network a different thing but they uh they have an event there where they are teaching professionals to make content and they

have a studio you can book time and they will film and record you that is their con presence and I was like okay now we're cooking now they're turning all those people all these ad professionals. Well, maybe

they'll make their first video with LinkedIn produced. They get that network

LinkedIn produced. They get that network effect of it and they're actually like practicing what they preach. The video

is in there. And I was like, it was interesting to me. I was like, LinkedIn has has a winner, you know? That was was cool.

It's amazing what you can see in people that you can connect with on LinkedIn.

It's just off of DM, off of posting content, like the guy that we just had on, he's saying there's a billion users and 1% of them are making stuff, which is insane.

Well, LinkedIn is bottom of funnel.

That's why I like what a lot of creators don't realize is like, okay, my content doesn't do huge views on LinkedIn.

Couple thousand, honestly, like on most things, but it's a people don't feel comfortable DMing you on Instagram. All

these brand deals, stuff that I've gotten is people, they will DM you on LinkedIn, no problem. SVP of a company, CMO, they're not DMing me from their personal Instagram with their kids on it to be like, "Hey, let's do the other."

And so, I think it's just like connecting those dots and it's a smaller network of it. I think brands underestimated, too. When I was um I ran

underestimated, too. When I was um I ran marketing at this company called Jelb Blaster before I started being a full-time creator and we had a guy who worked there named Steve. He's at Pudgy Penguins now, but his whole LinkedIn was just on I'm just going to post all the awesome content that we make as a

company and all our influencers. I'm

just going to post on LinkedIn because I work here and I'm stoked about it. And

it was a such a huge industry presence for us that this guy was just reposting our consumer content as our like head of partnerships or whatever that everyone would know B2B people like buyers at our retail, people at trade shows would know

more about our content than than like than anyone else because he's putting out this constant stream and LinkedIn is tight like that versus they're never seeing the consumer stuff. They don't

follow the brand. And so I actually think it's a really underutilized channel for brand marketing as well from a person releasing the content.

How long did it take you like during the time when you were head of marketing at this company to then actually leaving?

Were you cranking out content while you were there on your own personal page?

Like what was that like? Cuz I think a lot of people that might be listening this right now or like maybe they're at a job and they're doing this stuff.

They're moonlighting on the side doing it at night trying to create content.

They want to eventually make it full-time. Like what advice do you have

full-time. Like what advice do you have for those people?

So I was doing it in this position to understand it. I was had gone back the

understand it. I was had gone back the previous company I worked at before that I was uh like the president of it. I was

more way more operational. I was dealing with distribution and trucking and retail and I wasn't in marketing as deep and I was like cool now I'm back in a marketing job and I'm like I don't understand organic content. So I started making Tik Tok to to like basically

understand how Tik Tok works and it went better than expected.

Um but then yeah so then it was like cool I'm making Tik Toks doesn't really matter. I make one a night then it's

matter. I make one a night then it's like okay now there's some money and like no one really noticed or cared or like was what it was but then it started to be like uh and then it started to be a huge bonus because like started to get pretty large and then I'd be in meetings like retail meetings and they'd be like

oh these other three people are here because they like your TikTok and I'd be like oh this is now like a tool and I think people at my company saw very quickly being like oh this is a tool like put him in front of it introduce him as the influencer whatever and then it became when it was like when like the

real money came when it was like cool I actually make more casually off this than I do an executive position was when it became a conflict you know I I still like I went back to work like partially uh recently just cuz I need that

structure. I'm like 280D to not have

structure. I'm like 280D to not have like a core thing that gets me up at like 7 in the morning and like has me doing objectives. Uh so I kind of needed

doing objectives. Uh so I kind of needed that. So I never was was the goal. But

that. So I never was was the goal. But

then the fiscal incentives are so misaligned because you can make so much money from content versus jobs especially as a creative that like it's really it's an interesting time to be in.

What was that first brand deal that you got?

Timberland.

Yeah. I I have huge love for Timberland.

I would love for them to ever first check $1,500.

Wow. It was uh and I was like Timber this is sick and like out of the blue wasn't expected and then from there it was like a bunch of B2B SAS um and uh but yeah I was like this is this is awesome.

So you started making content just cuz you wanted to understand it more not even with the mindset of I want to become a full-time creator.

Yeah. Not at all. And I and I tried a few different things. I was making um like I didn't drink at the making like non-alcoholic beverage content. I was

like cool. Can I review that? I tried a few stuff but my whole thing was I'm not going to stop until I get a video with 5,000 views. And I made like 50 before

5,000 views. And I made like 50 before we got to there. But then the first one that got 5,000 it was like the next one was 10K and then we're off to the races.

Um but I I remember like I was making videos and they were kind of bad and I had uh I got some advice from it was like a a girl I knew from high school who was like hey she at the time she said you need to slow down like you need to be hotter and you need to like talk

that talk. And so you can actually

that talk. And so you can actually literally watch you can like go all the way back and you'll see when I like don't talk the speed I am now like sped back up since then. But it's like me and I'm in like I'm in like a tank top and I'm like talking [ __ ] about like luggage or whatever and you could like watch the

transition and everyone was like immediately I gravitated to it and I was like man like sometimes just taking that advice from someone like she'd have been on TikTok forever and I was like oh you know oh I just got to be hot

she was just like hey look good a lot of people don't care about their appearance and I was just like I wasn't lit well I wasn't whatever and she's just like like I was decently cut at the time and it was just like uh not like yeah now it's like now it's all crazy now people are all like yeah

everyone like looks amazing but Dude, we joke around and we're just like, "Oh, so we just got to go to Bali, become tan, and get ripped and then we're good."

And then you're good. Just pop the puppies brother.

Then we're chilling, dude.

What is it? Like the What is it?

But it's caring is more caring more than being like super honest. Like that's the other cuz a lot of people just don't I'm like, "Yo, like if you look sloppy, unless that's what you're going for, people don't relate to. People want to relate to people they aspire to be like

for the majority of it, you know?"

Yeah. We only look at hot people on on that kind of job.

But I do feel like generationally now everyone is like way more they understand what it takes. I look back when I was in like high school and [ __ ] and it was like carbo loading because we didn't know about social like that though. We didn't get bullied as

that though. We didn't get bullied as much online dude.

Also, we didn't know what to do. If

someone had told me when I was 16, eat 200 gram of protein every day and your whole life will be fine. Then you're

concerned with nothing else. My entire

life would be different. You know what I'm saying?

I remember you you find like fitness YouTube in high school and it was was off to the races, dude. I was like this is all I need. You just got to follow this guy. He gives out all the advice

this guy. He gives out all the advice for free.

We were worried about taking creatine in high school.

Dude, I was ripping it, dog. We I gradu No, when I graduated, I saw one YouTube all I needed. Didn't research it at all.

I started bodybuilding.com bodybuilding.com. I'm

bodybuilding.com bodybuilding.com. I'm

like, "Yep, let me That is so funny. You

just opened up a crazy memory."

Bodybuilding.com. I literally ordered creatine. I remember this one kid's mom,

creatine. I remember this one kid's mom, I go over and I had my little backpack on to go to the gym and I just had every supplement. BCAS, creatine, protein

supplement. BCAS, creatine, protein powder, needles. Like, I had it all. I

powder, needles. Like, I had it all. I

had this stack and I go over and his mom's like, "What's that in your bag?"

like acting like it was like a class one drug, dude. She's like, "Is that is that

drug, dude. She's like, "Is that is that creatine?" Diego will not be will not be

creatine?" Diego will not be will not be partaking in the creatine that you guys are having. I'm like, then I'm like I

are having. I'm like, then I'm like I have watched one video. I'm like, "You don't understand. It's the most

don't understand. It's the most researched drug."

researched drug." You haven't done your research.

You haven't done your research.

We're going to fix Alzheimer's here.

Dude, I I remember talking to a guy named Adam. He was a few years older

named Adam. He was a few years older than me and he was really good at baseball. And I was like, "What's like

baseball. And I was like, "What's like the secret?" He goes, "Dude, I I took

the secret?" He goes, "Dude, I I took some creatine." And he goes, "But then I

some creatine." And he goes, "But then I got off it and I I like uh became slower and I was like, I can't take that."

And so I got scared of taking creatine.

That was that's what it was. That's the

level of education we had now versus these these muaxing kids out here like just have the whole recipe, you know? So

God's higher.

So funny.

How dialed was your positioning as a creator when you first started? Were you

just like, I'm going to go all in on branding?

No. Zero. I like zero dialed. I was like non-alcoholic beverages. Then I was

non-alcoholic beverages. Then I was like, cool, I'm going to talk about consumer packaged goods. No one gives a [ __ ] And then it was like cool. I'm

like, and I started like really talking about like luxury, like nice stuff, like expensive stuff. And then it moved a bit

expensive stuff. And then it moved a bit into marketing. And then now it's like I

into marketing. And then now it's like I always have like four pillars and I kind of like try to work around that, but it's like ever shifting.

Talk to us about the pillars.

Yeah. I just like to have like I plan my content like roughly like by month. I'll

be like, "Here's what I'm trying to focus on this month." And what I've noticed is I'll have like topics that resonate, but they go away. That's why

the monthly is important. So like

packaging used to be a pillar. I used to talk about packaging a lot and it would always hit and I had a couple different approaches to it, but then it just stopped being it's like not in the zeitgeist. wasn't interesting like

zeitgeist. wasn't interesting like removed it as a pillar versus like right now um like travel content is like a pillar so I'm always posting travel content every week and like like a unique approach to it like design travel um and then I have like product versus

brand is like a pillar and that's another one too right where like I didn't do it for like six months was getting me the wrong audience but now it's like I need the right top of funnel so I bring it back so I kind of just have this list of topics probably like 14 15 things they're like what are the

four I'm really concentrated on like next month I'm I'm like bringing luxury back I haven't made luxury content for a minute and it's going to be like luxury month kind of at least in my head I'm not going to like say that publicly, but it's like, all right, how is that like a recurring through line through this? But

I feel like that's how you keep it interesting and keep it right is like, okay, is this working? Does it go? Is it

tired? Bring it back. And I'm usually trying to be like, two things I know are winning. One thing I know is kind of on

winning. One thing I know is kind of on its way out, and then one thing new I'm trying.

Man, I've never heard it explained like that. I've always heard the four pillars

that. I've always heard the four pillars when I diversify your content a little bit, but I love the not being scared to almost reposition yourself monthtomonth.

Yeah, because you have to because you'll see it like if I was still making packaging content, it would be just it would be dead, right? Um and that's why the travel was so big where I was just like cool again because also what's the pillar? What can other people not do?

pillar? What can other people not do?

What's going to get replicated? You

know, there's a lot of this like and I had carousels in there for a minute. I

was like cool like carousels to push to my YouTube about the videos to do whatever. And it was great and like they

whatever. And it was great and like they still work now, but then that's me in my back of my head being like this content's too normal. when it comes to not a personal brand but a traditional brand, how important is positioning and

what tactics can brands use to dial in the positioning more?

Yeah. So, I think it's basically the same thing. I always look at like the

same thing. I always look at like the goal number one goal for brands, get one type of content that works and and that can be also organic or ads, right? Like

it's just like find a thing that has some level of scalability. Like that is your number before you think about anything else like get the one thing and then it's like I would it's the same approach of like all right, how do I have these? And one of the biggest

have these? And one of the biggest things I think brands need to think about is people consume content in different ways. Like I'm a green screen

different ways. Like I'm a green screen creator is how I started, right? But not

everyone I don't consume any green screen content. I can't listen I can't

screen content. I can't listen I can't watch something for more than like 9 seconds. I don't have the right

seconds. I don't have the right disposition. So I I can't even make it

disposition. So I I can't even make it through my own videos or even like my friends videos. So but that to me is I'm

friends videos. So but that to me is I'm a huge consumer. I have a bunch of expendable income. I'm in my target

expendable income. I'm in my target demographic. But I watch 11second videos

demographic. But I watch 11second videos with captions on them, right? And I

scroll a lot of carousels. Like it's a different like approach to it. And so I think brands need to think about that same thing. Your target consumer

same thing. Your target consumer consumes multiple types of different content. So, I encourage them to have

content. So, I encourage them to have like a bridge of those formats. Like

there's a lot of people that only consume carousels. So, if you're a brand

consume carousels. So, if you're a brand um like what I've said about carousels is less relevant for a brand because I feel like that your job is to get views, approach um your consumer in different ways. So, like carousel should be a

ways. So, like carousel should be a pillar. Same thing with uh like how

pillar. Same thing with uh like how you're looking at content that's like a vlog or a storytelling versus a person talking and they're both valued in their own way, but it's like that combination of like ideas you're getting across and the formats you're doing it in. A brand

I really like, I feel like is a good strategy for people to look at is this brand PCL. They're like a UK men's wear

brand PCL. They're like a UK men's wear brand. What I like about them is they

brand. What I like about them is they have founder content, but he's like one of every 10 videos. And he'll do like a conversation and sit down, but it's recurring. You know him. There's this

recurring. You know him. There's this

educational component. Then they'll have their more traditional lookbooks. Then

they'll have kind of like their vlogs and skits. Then they'll have their more

and skits. Then they'll have their more standard like unboxing showcases, whatever it is. But you get that information about the product. You get

the behind the brand. It's all kind of symbiotic into this big thing. I think

brands need to find their multiple styles and their pieces and be kind of testing their way through it and testing every organic piece of content as an ad.

That's like the thing I see people do the least that's probably the most valuable is like if you're not running every single thing that's on your feed that makes any level of sense and just putting it in your ASC campaign for meta or like running it through Spark if it hits on TikTok to just see if it hits

your same rowass goals as your other stuff like you're there's just there's money waiting there to be made.

Gosh. Wow. It is so interesting because I think even when I talk like my core business is going to brands helping them with their social and either we make it or we just consult them with it and it's

mind-boggling at how they're just holding on to these dollars from other ways that they've traditionally marketed and I'm like no no no I'm telling you guys like this is what they're doing and they're a lot of the feedback that I get from them which is crazy and you just

said it is they're putting paid behind [ __ ] that they don't know works. So

they're just like they're just like oh yeah we ran five paid ads. I go did you post them first? No. Why?

And also, did you run what you already posted that you already have good metrics on and just and just test? And

it's like mindboggling.

And I only discovered that I was using um it's funny. I had I had a sponsorship deal with this company called Particle.

It's like a research software for for branding. And I was looking at I'm going

branding. And I was looking at I'm going through and I'm looking at you can look at any brand sales. And this is when I was launching some of my like my little like little brand I have where I sell like clothes and stuff like related to my content. And I was looking at

my content. And I was looking at Represent Buxon, a bunch of these other brands. I like Cole Bucks because like

brands. I like Cole Bucks because like Represent's a big dog. You can't learn anything from that. Um, but Cole Bucks's like kind of in that middle position.

And I was looking at I'm like, "Oh, they're running every single I'm in their ads manager. I'm in the other.

They're running every single organic post as an ad." And I was like, I hadn't even thought of it like that. You know,

we'd run occasional we'd put some in there in in jailb it's going to either spend or not. And

you're going to see rorowass or not.

It's going to take like a couple hundred bucks to figure anything out. And then

you get so many winners. And the

outsized winners on social iss.

6.5 rorowass on at least for a few weeks. And like that's it's just such a

weeks. And like that's it's just such a massive hack and you can watch is why some of these clothing brands have crushed it, dude. So do you find do you find that

dude. So do you find do you find that with these brands that you start working with when they get these like a bigger winner like a 4x or a 6x it only lasts for certain it doesn't nothing creative scales forever. It's a creative volume

scales forever. It's a creative volume game like right now. I do this even small like uh like even for like even for my valuables brand like I run a lot of this is creative. I'll have a grip his

is creative. I'll have a grip his creative for a few weeks and but if you were putting in hella creative or variations maybe it's better but like everything is a volume game for everyone I work with right now. Uh the

core brand I've worked with for a long time and in clothing it's a women's wear brand. We run the same playbook all the

brand. We run the same playbook all the time but it's a shitload of creative.

It's like every time we release a collection it's a uh lifestyle carousel for the collection. It's a white background carousel for the collection.

It's a reel that shows fit on different body types and we run and then there's like a lookbook. Basically, it's four pieces for every item in the collection and but it gives us just a ton of content to test.

I I noticed that Minted does this really well where like they're coming out with some like say let's say they're coming out with a collection it's like little teaser the tag little teaser the fabric show it on a body cool video drop and it's like it's it's a playbook that a

lot of these brands are following and it it's working.

If you run that same playbook it works on organic and all those are also ad assets. all of a sudden you just like

assets. all of a sudden you just like boom save money on your creative budget and then also you're getting that validation you already know and also makes your social be more popping, right? It's it's

a it's kind of a win-win across the board and like Tik Tok's an even better version of this because you can track the revenue better with a Tik Tok shop.

You've also talked about how important like BTS content is. I remember you I watched a video of you talking about like the photo shoot playbook for for fashion brands. Can you talk about how

fashion brands. Can you talk about how to execute BTS content or basically how to how to execute uh maybe a photo shoot where you're like a a fashion brand is dropping a new collection. What is all

the types of content that they should be getting like on top of just the Yeah, just the visual. Well, I think the BTS one's interesting where most people fail at BTS is you'll go into the single, oh, we shot BTS this shoot. It's

like, okay, great. We have,

you know, two hours or 300 gigs of BTS, but there's no plan. So, the number one thing is just the plan. And so usually it's like everything is references now, right? Everything's briefs. And it's

right? Everything's briefs. And it's

like you go into that shoot, it's like, "Okay, what's the BTS plan?" And we're not just shooting BTS, someone's responsible. It's like Julie is shooting

responsible. It's like Julie is shooting the BTS and here's the four reference videos we have. One of the BTS's is just like a sizzle reel and to get that hot me to be able to do these two techniques or transitions like and so her job is to capture stuff for that. The other thing

is a before the shot after the shot.

Well, the more compelling the before is, if we can make it funny or an interesting angle, the better it is. So

it's like your BTS needs a shot list basically at least for the hooks or the key parts as much as the rest of your stuff does. But you've identified that

stuff does. But you've identified that I'm doing this type of BTS or that. And

so like all the people that really do this, all the like creative strategists are like they have their bookmarks folder or their notion doc or their foreplay board or whatever it is with each of these categories. Like this is the BTS reference, this is my launch, this is my teaser and you just go

through and you just pull those for that shoot. But I think the biggest BTS thing

shoot. But I think the biggest BTS thing is to plan it or you end up at that drive and someone's going to figure it out and no one has a plan and like that's the cursed state to be in.

Yeah. Because literally you finish the shoot and you just have all this stuff.

Yeah. All this BTS and that's why it never comes out. Everyone's like, "Well, we we have BTS. We just don't use it."

I'm like, "Yeah, because there was no plan." And the plan is either like the

plan." And the plan is either like the best ones are before the shot, after the shot. So, if you can be like, "Hey, you

shot. So, if you can be like, "Hey, you have show some crazy thing and make people wait and then you show them the result." Like that's a that's a surefire

result." Like that's a that's a surefire format that works. And then some kind of sizzle reel where you get to tease it is like another one. Uh and then I like I've been doing this with my events where you do like a carousel and uh there's a brand called Sunny's Face was

the first one I saw do this. Philippines

like cosmetic brand, but they'd be like the location, the models, the talent, the product, and they like have a slide for each of them. I was like, that's a fun format to do BTS in. So, I've been doing that for events now. Brilliant.

It's also interesting, too, because I remember back in the day, especially when we get hired to just go like cover an event. It would be a recap video, and

an event. It would be a recap video, and it's such a waste of money to just do a recap video nowadays. It's like, dude, we should be doing iPhone. We should be posting live during the event. We should

be doing a photo carousel going live during the event. we should be teasing if there's an important speaker there and brands just are not doing that.

We'll go back to the brand world. It's

like, okay, is there a makeup artist there? Do they have social media? Do you

there? Do they have social media? Do you

want to shoot them doing the look for that and give them a piece that then goes on their social on your shoot? I'm

like, you can be when you really begin to plan out, it's like you can get so sick.

Yeah. God. And you just have so many more pieces and the money goes so much further and makes so much more sense for them.

Yeah. Well, I look at what's like Wimbledon posted a thousand times during that one Wimbledon. Like we've all seen that. It's just like and you when you

that. It's just like and you when you look at how did they really do it a thousand times? It's like yeah, they had

thousand times? It's like yeah, they had highlevel art directive photography of everything happening. They had the

everything happening. They had the actual event coverage. They had behind the scenes. They had here's the drink

the scenes. They had here's the drink recipe. Here's whatever. Like you can

recipe. Here's whatever. Like you can really go down into it. If you have a media team that's savvy enough, it's all just creating the shot list.

Bro, I remember during during a Lakers game, right, we would post I remember one of the games that we had. We were It was like one of the craziest games. We

posted 56 or 57 times in an evening and every single thing was humming and it's like you have photo the design team's in the back. They're cranking [ __ ] out.

the back. They're cranking [ __ ] out.

Photo sending [ __ ] to design to add into their little carousels. They're doing a carousel at halftime. We're doing a video every damn minute. I'm sending a video from the court. You have another guy who's up in the rafter sending a video from the court. You have a social

manager who's gathering [ __ ] on the phone. And then you have a QB who's

phone. And then you have a QB who's asking for stuff. So, it's like, bro, we are having all these different mouths are being fed and she's like, I want this for Facebook or I want this for Twitter. I want this for Instagram.

Twitter. I want this for Instagram.

That's a great Tik Tok. Or it's like LeBron just went and signed this little girl's shoe. That's a Tik Tok. And it's

girl's shoe. That's a Tik Tok. And it's

like, dude, when you think about you have a team of five, six, seven people that are all dialed that are all on the same page of like, we're feeding this beast today. It It's an unbelievable

beast today. It It's an unbelievable thing when you see.

It feels good when you're doing it. I

think what's funny is teams will have, oh, we have five or seven people on the ground, but they're like holding a light doing they're not they don't operate like like that's the difference. If you

can get those operators or coach your team to be operators at that level, the amount of content and stuff that you can get is amazing. And to your point, if some of it starts hitting, the rest of it starts hitting. And so like don't be afraid to post that 50 times. We're

actually talking about this uh Ash and I next week for con where I was like cool, like do I try like maybe I try to post like 30 times next week and like what does that look like and would that work and kind of debating the merits of it or not or when do you evaluate it? But I

think that's like important for creators. We're I think we're going to attempt it. I feel like you you guys would kill especially because it is such a culturally relevant moment to be there and to see whatever is happening and you're halfway around the world most people can't can't even

buy that flight and it's just prep and so like we have like we got videographers with us there's editors editing support there's overnight editing support there's design support so now it's just like okay what concepts do you have like everything comes back to it's so funny like I have

a I like relentlessly bookmark catalog like I'm I have everything tagged I have like this massive notion database this is a notion that you work in do you love notion uh notion's great I It's it's it's like

there's you can whatever platform you pick is probably fine. I love notion for the way I think. I know I don't think like everybody else. The biggest thing about notion is that you can embed the Tik Toks and the Instagrams and stuff like uh is such such a big difference. I

don't have to click. It's like cool.

It's a I use toggles all the time. It's

like toggle. I have these things embedded. And so it's not like I have a

embedded. And so it's not like I have a list in a spreadsheet. I got to go click and be like what was that reference about again? It's like no no here's the

about again? It's like no no here's the visual. I watch it in app or in doc.

visual. I watch it in app or in doc.

Oh you can just watch it right there.

And so that was to me it's like that's nothing else matters. You can use any database platform is whatever but the fact I can just watch it all in the toggle is like is gamechanging and but then it's just now it's just creating these lists being like all right like I

have my uh I always look at launches like tease of launch unveil of launch after education. So I have like these

after education. So I have like these four big docs for that but it's like cool I need to go pull 15 things through that what applies to the content like how do I have so when you're somewhere I'm at this event okay what is the idea that we can run with cuz that's the hardest part is you're in this thing

like what is the content idea how do you drill down to it how dude who can hold my hand with notion I want to be a notion guy we both want to be notion guys ide university guy for also on that I like it's at least for me it was like very intuitive

he's going to be like it's stupid proof brother yeah it is really dumbass proof dog well now with AI too is like make me a table that does you know and It has an AI thing.

Dude, just type into chat. Say, hey,

just say, "Teach me how to notion dog."

Teach me how to not God, I want to be a notion guy.

Okay. You brought up represent and you said that's not a good example because they're a big dog and you can't really learn stuff from them.

Yeah. I think everyone always wants to ask, "Oh, I'm going to be like Beta. I'm

going to be like represent." Like

represent is a cultural force from with like a decade behind them. And if you want to go craft your strategy after them, like good luck. Like that's I like you need to learn from people that are rising right now. And you look at like represent has every tool, right? like

amazing team, great design, great product, their own products, their own stores, founder and founder brother, they're both founders, right? Who like

both have their own social media, everyone looks good, dialed in team, you can't operate like that to start, right?

It's if you are in a mid-tier, if you are like, hey, our brand is doing 10 12 million a year, how do we that's a great person to aspire to be like to be how do we get to 100, right? Um, but that's so I'm always like, you need to look at

whoever is kind of rising one step, two steps above you to model after that cuz things change too quick by the time you got to be able to follow that playbook at all. Everything would be different.

at all. Everything would be different.

I guess unless you have a [ __ ] unlimited budget, unless you got that budget wouldn't even make a difference, right? Like cuz

because they're like they all have their social media followings that are all built. You can't just contrive that

built. You can't just contrive that tomorrow even with a budget. like you

all have like they have found those things that work for them in terms of like pricing and the way they do the vaults and the releases and like they're so it's like oh if we limited budget we'd be ALD tomorrow like well do you have the cultural resonance with like investment bankers that they do you know

like yeah can we can we talk a little bit about community for one a creator and two a brand I want to start with a creator because I think it's a it's a thing that everyone's se around you got to build a community you got to do this you got to

do that right just having a broadcast channel isn't building community and I think I saw a video I'm pretty sure that you put out a bit ago just talking about community building. How can a creator go

community building. How can a creator go about doing this authentically and something that's like actually a real community, not some [ __ ] that's just like, "Yeah, we have this channel, we post in it sporadically." Like, you know, I'm just curious of what you've

noticed.

And so, I think you can use those things correctly. And I'll call out um

correctly. And I'll call out um so my friend Jordan Rogers, he is a like a sports marketing creator.

Yes. He's ex Nike, right?

Ex Nike. He I felt like used his broadcast channel and his stories really well for his niche to build community around because he's basically uses his broadcast channel as here's all the news you need to know in sports marketing and then asking for their takes and then really kind of making videos based on

takes people have like hey chat do we like this Adidas campaign here's my thought he'll get a bunch of replies people are actually like oh I don't like this I do like this then you'll see like a video will come out the next day and it might reference something in the chat so you feel like there's an involvement

level um and even like stories being conversational uh but I do feel like really the community is bringing bringing value to people that goes beyond when they just take your content.

It's like, hey, are are you like a part of their lives in some other way? And

then I feel like connecting to the in real life experiences is the biggest one. So, I've been like really focused

one. So, I've been like really focused on events and meetups and stuff like that. And like don't charge for them,

that. And like don't charge for them, don't any of the other like it's just like having those because like as soon as you have an in real life thing with somebody like then I feel like it's moved into community, but building it purely online is I feel like it's having a conversational space where people feel

like their input and back and forth is valuable. Like you can totally have a

valuable. Like you can totally have a community in your YouTube comments like 100%. Um, but then the next step will be

100%. Um, but then the next step will be like bringing that to real life. But it

is not an easy undertaking and it revolves you having more than like more than a one-way conversation I think is like the the minimum threshold.

Yeah.

What are brands messing up when they do their pop-ups?

Um, I mean a lot of brands are doing good pop-ups now. But hey, having it be social media friendly enough is like the biggest one. Like is it something you

biggest one. Like is it something you want to put on your gen because you have to get this photo or this thing or that thing um is like a is like a big part of it. But I see lots of really good

it. But I see lots of really good pop-ups and brand events and activations now. I feel like brands are starting to

now. I feel like brands are starting to nail it, but it's like what are your consumers creating content from when they do it and what are they excited enough to do and are you thinking about their experience? Uh, one of the ones

their experience? Uh, one of the ones that like when Road had like these long lines their pop up in New York, it's like they had like waters and gift baskets and like little [ __ ] for all the people that were waiting all day and it's like it's little [ __ ] like that like what is going to make my consumer

potentially be upset? How do I preemptively solve that problem?

Miss Bibbs, dude, she is on it, man. That brand's amazing.

man. That brand's amazing.

100%. My girlfriend [ __ ] loves it.

She buys everything that she puts out and it's like it's incredible stuff.

Every everything is very dialed from a product standpoint. I don't I wouldn't

product standpoint. I don't I wouldn't know but I've heard Yeah. I mean look at like the cultural

Yeah. I mean look at like the cultural significance of the iPhone case and [ __ ] like that. Yeah. It's like I think so

like that. Yeah. It's like I think so many guys have that experience where like their girl saw it for the first time and they like audibly gasped and you're like that's like impact, you know?

Yeah. God, it's so interesting. Speaking

about spaces or staying on spaces, you also talk about how important the space in which you live in is important for your creativity. Can you go into that?

your creativity. Can you go into that?

Yeah, I just feel like every your entire life now that you're fighting your phone and everything around you for attention is like everything is designed to distract you from like getting to your end goal. And I feel like then in your

end goal. And I feel like then in your own space, how optimized that is is like a huge difference. Like I look at this, I have uh I have like my desk with my ring light and my tripod and my mic and

stuff right there. If I had to set that up every time, I'd make a third of the content, right? And so, and it's the

content, right? And so, and it's the same thing with your prioritization.

Like, um, I was talking about this with a friend of mine where he was complaining about something. I was like, but you walk in your house, you have a [ __ ] massive like 80inch television.

Like, that's the most prominent thing in your home. So, like, what are you going

your home. So, like, what are you going to spend your time doing? It's going to be around that. And like, if the mood boards for your brand were covering the television and that was the center of the room, what do you think the prioritization of attention is? So, I

think it's like it's almost like dumb genius stuff where you're just like, "Hey, the biggest or most easiest things to spend your time on is what you're going to spend your time on." And so, I think it's like optimizing for that is uh is like super important.

God, we're we're about to be home office, guys. We cannot wait, dude.

office, guys. We cannot wait, dude.

Yeah, that's definitely a big thing that I found living here is it's been great for the podcast and we have so much camera stuff, but it wasn't designed for

us to be creative. And also like I would work out of my room having like my desk in there. And I'm so excited to have a

in there. And I'm so excited to have a clean space. Living with a girl is nice

clean space. Living with a girl is nice because she brings like she makes it all aesthetic. But having the home office to

aesthetic. But having the home office to separate work and home and then also having my own space to be like when I go in there I know I'm going to be working and my tripod's going to be set up, the lights going to be set up. It's going to be way easier to make content.

Cuz see this this place was optimized for a podcast. It was not optimized to to create content for ourselves personally. And it's like it's been

personally. And it's like it's been super difficult, but I feel like we've made it work to the best of our ability.

But like it's so much easier to make a pod. Like people just walk in, we just

pod. Like people just walk in, we just turn the table, we're ready to rock and roll.

Were you the one who talked about inspo maxing?

Yeah. Yeah.

I love that.

Well, I say it's just everything in your life. It's like what do you spend your

life. It's like what do you spend your like I use the brick thing to shut my social media off on my phone, the little $15 thing, but then the only ones that aren't shut off is like Cosmos and Pinterest. So it's like cool if I need

Pinterest. So it's like cool if I need to scroll, I'm scrolling mood board accounts. And even in the house, like my

accounts. And even in the house, like my house is like full of the boards and whatnot. I got whiteboards everywhere.

whatnot. I got whiteboards everywhere.

her and she's like once you kind of embrace it like it's going to be a little crazy or if other people are going to be like that's a little off you but like then it's just everything is just better because even like uh I order all this physical stuff all these print

magazines I'm constantly like buying it's just like it's like anything that sparks any idea is worth so much because like all this is workflow like anyone can make good content now anyone can make a good podcast have a good conversation can do what any of us do so

it's a volume game and a volume game means workflow it's like how do you produce good stuff at scale and so then it's like inspiration is issue one like how do I get ideas and so I feel like anything that is going to uh if I can spend any amount of money that will get

me a good idea it's probably [ __ ] worth it like and and so like I am constantly spending money to generate those ideas and then it's like is there any trick or thing that can make a video pop off like right if I wear am I going to get 10 extra comments because of this

hoodie or if I buy this photo copier is that going to mean I can get seven videos out of using that and that's okay advertise that is worth $1,000 for me to have a [ __ ] banger video and so cool that is now an infinite budget for me to get more banger videos you have that

cost and you have your time was like all right what am I spending time on that's not like helping pursue those goals, whether that can get removed or not or do I want to remove or not to like have your life balanced. But when you break things down like that, you can really start to be like, "Oh, here's where I'm

messing up." You are so right. And I was

messing up." You are so right. And I was literally thinking about this last night with our New York trip. I was like, "I have 12 videos from New York that we just went to. We went for like 4 days.

I'm like, there's at least 12 pieces of content in here. So worth it." And then for the obviously the impact of these interviews just having that content to be able to produce we we're going to have 100 pieces from 4 days which is

kind of crazy to think about and it's yeah because we want to break down like cost of content is like a thing I think every brand and creator needs to really understand like cost per asset of everything and and also because in for two ways one maybe you're overspending or other maybe you're under spending

like I don't know I'll spend between editors and management and travel and whatnot I I'll probably spend 300 plusk this year on content supporting stuff.

Wow. Um, but I would never be able to have, you're never going to make seven figures as a creator if you're not investing at least to that level. And

so, and I was I doing that two years ago. Like, no. But then you start to

ago. Like, no. But then you start to realize like, oh, like I was the same thing. I went, I did a China trip. Cool.

thing. I went, I did a China trip. Cool.

Some of it brands help with, some of it I'm coming out of pocket for. I'm

bringing videographers, whatever. Even

like cons like cool, some stuff is covered, some is not. I'm just doing that math. Like, what is a banger video

that math. Like, what is a banger video worth to me? How many videos am I going to get? What's my percentage of bangers

to get? What's my percentage of bangers to like normal videos? And it's just like, but that like that's the math. And

then, but you that math scales.

Yeah. 100%. What have you what was the first hire that you brought on and now what does the team look like?

Uh YouTube editor um probably the most important uh management with so like I have managed by this company called DMG uh that was super useful because I just wasn't I would never have charged like what I charge now without having

management who like knew what they're doing and then they also they do all the negotiation they do all the invoice. I'm

just like oh the brief is here like amazing this is mine I got two slots a week and we kind of fill them up. So

that was a huge help. Everyone thinks

like oh I'll negotiate my own thing extra Y. It's like, man, just never

extra Y. It's like, man, just never think about that ever again. That's a

great way to look at it. So, yeah,

I just signed a management, so I'm really excited to to see how that goes.

Yeah, if you have a lot of inbound, then it's like very very helpful for that.

Um, so yeah, so there's management, uh, YouTube, editing um, was big like like design support is big. YouTube, I feel like I have a hire strategist. My first

one went on YouTube. I did a bunch of like different like stuff in and out.

But, uh, but also most of the expenses comes down to like what am I making? I

don't feel bad about buying anything to like make content about or like do anything. I know a lot of c I have

anything. I know a lot of c I have creators will buy a ba bag. They know

they'll make the money back, you know, like because they'll have x and y videos about it. Um, but I look at travel

about it. Um, but I look at travel exceedingly like that. Like travel is like top of funnel content for me. So I

have no problem spending 105 grand going somewhere if I'm going to get 8 10 videos out of it.

Wow.

[ __ ] yes.

That's awesome, dude. I love it. So

right now with the YouTube editor, like what does YouTube look like for you?

Because I know it's super important. I

know that, you know, those views that you are getting, those buyers have intent. Like th those people are your

intent. Like th those people are your content specifically is very helpful for a brand. Like if I'm watching that, I'm

a brand. Like if I'm watching that, I'm like, "Oh, I probably do need this guy's help."

help." Yeah. And I don't sell hard on there

Yeah. And I don't sell hard on there because Yeah. Uh so he's like,

because Yeah. Uh so he's like, "Instagram is super monetized through brand deals. I do two brand deals a week

brand deals. I do two brand deals a week and it's like a relentless flow of like good money, but it's capped. I If I I have 450k or something like that on there. If I had a million, I don't think

there. If I had a million, I don't think I'd make much more if any. It's like I'm at like the highest. I think once you're over like 300k in that like B2B space, as long as you're getting the views, you're like, "Hey, most of these videos are going to be 50 to 200,000 views,

you're kind of capped in that like it's like there's not a bigger budget." Um,

and so I'm like, "Cool, there's not like additional funds there." YouTube, I'm not like selling hard on there. Mainly,

I saw my audience like 21 to 27. So,

they're younger. My Instagram, I'm a 28 to 35 Instagram and Tik Tok. I'm getting

like professionals. These are like aspiring professionals. And so, I'm

aspiring professionals. And so, I'm like, cool. I don't necessarily want to

like, cool. I don't necessarily want to sell that super hard. Uh, I'm way more interested in like how do I I feel like YouTube is way better at least for me for like real cultural relevance. When I

look at like what um like the previous generation of people like Seth Goden or Gary Vee or whatever they do like a lot of it's like educational stuff and a lot of it's on YouTube and I'm like how do I get how do I become how do I teach as

many people marketing and content and strategy in this next generation as humanly possible. Like that's goal one.

humanly possible. Like that's goal one.

Sponsors contribute to that. still like

less than Instagram as a sponsor every week. But like that's more of the

week. But like that's more of the workflow is like how do I cover every corner? My first six months of real

corner? My first six months of real YouTube like once I had it kind of figured out was all SEO. It's like you you go mood board, you go luxury brand, you go like I'm creative director, art director, I like I'm it I'm top one or

two if not multiple slots on all of those. So I was really trying to get SEO

those. So I was really trying to get SEO across the niche because I saw it was wide open all the niche terms. Everyone's still fighting over like marketing plan and [ __ ] like that. I'm

like nah. Uh and then it's like okay now you get formats. Same thing. I'm like I I kind of have four I've been like I'm in an experimental mode the last month and this next month where I doing like eight or 10 videos where we're trying stuff and then we're going to pair it down to basically like here's just four

same ideas we're repeating.

And so what does the workflow look like?

Does it you think of you think of a great title, you think of a great thumbnail first? Like how does

thumbnail first? Like how does title and thumbnail first? Yeah. So I'm

doing that. So first for con I'm doing the art of advertising.

Okay.

It's being based on the fact I have an art of marketing video that did really well and these like longer masterclass videos are doing really well. So I was like cool I'm going to do that. I think

it's going to work. I have the thumbnail idea. I have the like the concept and

idea. I have the like the concept and I'm basically writing a video like underneath that where I'm like outlining it all but I'm also filming a bit on the fly like as you go and then that goes goes to editing but yeah everything's the title and thumbnail first I have

like a running list of extensive I use one of 10 so I'm searching that all the time for marketing branding outliers uh anything related to any the term outliers that's a pretty useful software and then the goal for getting attention

on YouTube is to drive what like for consulting uh no yeah I don't even really consult anymore so like I get the brand money off that like it's a five figure a month kind of thing like nothing huge. Uh, so

like there's money off that, but it's really building the audience for like I'm unsure what I want to do there, you know? Um, I have like I there's info

know? Um, I have like I there's info products and stuff too that like are tangentially sold a bit through there, but really I'm just like looking at that audience building brand building brand and it pays for itself, you know, like the brand deals and everything make pay for it and make

money, but I'm way more interested in like how do I become the biggest marketing creator? Therefore, it enables

marketing creator? Therefore, it enables me to do all this content is really about enablement. It's like cool. I like

about enablement. It's like cool. I like

I didn't want to start some major fashion brand, but the idea that I can go put out I put out like car accessories and this and that is like awesome. That's a fun thing I want to be

awesome. That's a fun thing I want to be able to do. I can go to like I was at Apple, I'm going to con like it's enabling to be able to do all this stuff. And so I really look at the

stuff. And so I really look at the platform as enabling and then money's on top of it. And if I ever did want to say I want to [ __ ] cashmax, then it would just be info products like straight of all product.

I love the maxing. We're just looks maxing inspo maxing cash max cash maxing max out all this is like YouTube is for infounnel is like the best. I just haven't like

best. I just haven't like and you look at like marketing gurus where they really like Seth Goden made his money on all MBA, right? It's like

they made like it's an info product.

Like the info product is like usually the end result of like all of this. I'm

just not sure if like like when the right time or if the right time or what that looks like.

Do you feel that people often underestimate how much creators can make?

Oh yeah. Yeah. People are like people have no people are like shocked if they ever if they ever do find out and people like they don't believe it. Yeah. The

only people who know are people who pay influencers who are like what the [ __ ] dude. My favorite type or one of my

dude. My favorite type or one of my favorite type of content is like people that work at agencies and they're like uh budgets that we paid out to influencers this week and people are like, "Are you got to be [ __ ] kidding me?" Like,

me?" Like, it's insane. No, it's insane. And it's

it's insane. No, it's insane. And it's

only going to get bigger.

Yeah. Well, it's like so early on the wave and you see the ROI. It's like you see them come back, you see the other it's uh it's it's almost it's almost undervalued. Like that's I I as someone

undervalued. Like that's I I as someone like on the older end of like the influencer sketch, I'm always like, man, am I like what does this look like in 10 years? Like it'll be like sports level

years? Like it'll be like sports level contracts, you know? And so it's a different it's a different world. Um but

yeah, people underestimate that and there's so many ways to make money. A

lot of creators who get stuck are doing one thing like if you only do brand deals or you only do info or you only do one or two or if you get like because there's ceilings to like all that based on your audience.

A sports contract is an interesting way of looking at it. So you think that brands will come to influencers and be like I want to sign you to a three-year couple million.

I told you I was going to be in the league. It was just a different kind of

league. It was just a different kind of way.

way that Instagram already happening lightly like you'll see a lot of people um like one of the I work with a cosmetics brand who has like a uh an influencer like a makeup artist who's a like signed to them basically for like a

year um even and you'll see like even like you'll have exclusivity or whatever but I really think it's going to be like you know it's a higher contributing than just like making the content but like you are in the game for like you know say I was uh I work a lot with omniscent

like for email say I was like hey I'm never going to use another email platform in the next two years I'm going to do x assets x whatever I show up your speaking gigs I'm on website like that's the level like that stuff's already happening. I just think it's going to be

happening. I just think it's going to be really mass scale and it's going to be like on products and stuff we know every day where it's like hey it's not just you know Michael Jordan on wedies it's also you know like Demi Bagby or like

whoever like that that level is going to happen because that's what sells.

It's like Huberman with AG1 bro like that's a multi-million dollar contract and they know the dollars are there for both as soon as economics work both ways. I think what really opened

ways. I think what really opened people's minds to the money creators can make is the Tik Tok shop [ __ ] where so many people are making 10K, 20K or at least 5K like monthly off the and then people are making like 100 and you're like, "Oh, it's quantifiable." But why

are they making all that money? Oh,

because it's actually directly attributable because they're literally being like, "This is how much you sold.

This is how much you make." And so then people start to put real value on posts and then brands start to be like, "Shit, okay, like this is actually this is the value we need to be spending."

So So the brands now that are dominating on Tik Tok shop, there's still a lot of room for them to win there. Well, yeah,

because Tik Tok is so aggressively trying to build that market. Yeah. Like

Tik Tok shops, the Tik Tok shop's goals for Tik Tok shop are like doubling year-over-year. So, say they achieve

year-over-year. So, say they achieve half of that, you know, like that how much that TAM is growing for the brands that are selling on there. And like

we're still not we're still like a fraction of what China looks like. And

so there's no other growing platforms like in that same at that same velocity, right? Like shop uh Instagram's cutting

right? Like shop uh Instagram's cutting shopping, meta shopping from there. It's

going right to Shopify. Like chat GBT and shopping within there is the other like growth category. But like Amazon, you can't just blow up out of left field on their like on a big whites space.

It's also growing at the same time.

You're taking that market share from some other product.

What are your thoughts on these the AI videos that I've seen flooding my feed over the last few days? Cuz we we I think so too. I think they're really funny. I'm curious though with

funny. I'm curious though with like the output and the mass of what we're going to see. Like is it is it going to be way harder for a creator to cut through this noise or do you feel like people are going to really crave human connection? I'm just curious on

human connection? I'm just curious on your take.

I think it's just another kind of tool or usage. I think we're going to see

or usage. I think we're going to see creators using them in the same ways.

Like if I want to have another account that was like faceless or anonymous, like would I rather be a [ __ ] panda or would I rather have like some It's just making it more entertaining. It

just raises the bar of for me. I feel

like that content raises the bar for for slop. There was already so many carousel

slop. There was already so many carousel accounts, faceless accounts, like generative footage stealing, clipping, whatever. This is it's going in that

whatever. This is it's going in that like that slop layer, right? That's

that's going to be more and more comp the quality level of the slop layer will increase. And then there's this layer

increase. And then there's this layer above it which also forces the quality of everyone to increase which is another tool in the toolkit just the way you're going to be like hey I can make you know I'm making these type I'm making UGC ads okay now UGC ads and there's AI ads just

another thing dude the the Sasquatch vlogging dude so good or I saw one it was it was Jesus and he was in the middle of like the split scene

the Trojan horse being like they going doesn't even know idiots have no idea.

Yeah, but that's like also look like at education like I like I've got a 8-year-old kid. Would he rather like

8-year-old kid. Would he rather like okay you're going to read about the Spartans in there or we rather have like the Spartan guy saying like bro doesn't even know is like so relatable to my like YouTube driven child that like it's unbelievable you know like it's so funny.

No dude I I think I'm going to experiment with Veo today. I'm going to make a little rock a little rock guy and I'm going to have him be like kind of a little character and he's going to be talking about these new episodes and I think it's gonna hit. I think it's be hilarious.

It's just a tool. Again, it's a pro, but it's good. And I think it it just shows

it's good. And I think it it just shows you what uh I think everything's everyone's always been like, "Oh, my content stopped working or the algorithm changed." Like, no, the standards are

changed." Like, no, the standards are constantly rising. Constantly. And so,

constantly rising. Constantly. And so,

if you were like, "Oh, but I was doing the same thing a year ago and Instagram doesn't give me any views." Yeah. Guess

what? Every piece of Instagram content is [ __ ] better. Yeah.

And so, this is just another one of those where like, "Cool, now I'm not just competing with the next creator in my niche. I'm competing with the talking

my niche. I'm competing with the talking panda or whatever it is." You're like, "Cool. How what do you have to do to be

"Cool. How what do you have to do to be better than that?" You know? God, it is going to be so interesting in the next like six to 12 months. It's going to get crazy.

There's obviously content that generates a lot of views, but then there's also content that really cultivates an audience and allows people to like want to buy and build trust. So, what's what do you feel like is the difference between that kind of content where a

brand might get a lot of views or a person might get a lot of views, but you're not really building trust in a way to have people want to like buy or buy into you.

Yeah. I think it really just comes down to like what is the intention of the content. It's like people can tell when

content. It's like people can tell when the intention of the content is to sell them. And it's not saying they might not

them. And it's not saying they might not work, but they can also tell if someone's like really genuinely trying to like improve value, like improve their lives, give them value that helps create something that they aspire to to be like. And so I think it's just like

be like. And so I think it's just like going into each one of those being like, what is what is my consumer going to take away? Or did they feel rewarded by

take away? Or did they feel rewarded by this versus going in there being like, how do I explain them this thing?

Yeah, I feel like you can really tell when you're being sold to. Maybe it was a little bit easier to kind of hide that earlier on, but now I think it's like there's just so much content out there and we're constantly being sold to. It's

really refreshing when you're hit with really authentic content.

Well, that's why like solving user need is always going to be better when you're like, "Hey, I actually solved this problem for you and so I can lead all my content with an issue that you have and here's how we're going to it's always just going to go better than like, oh, I need to here's a lifestyle reason to buy

this or buy it because it's cool or x or y." Like that's just a you can still

y." Like that's just a you can still again all still works but there's just a way easier more natural play to things have real reason to exist.

All the stuff I bought too it's because either for the person or for the brand like I've gotten some sort of value from it and then I transact like for myself personally which is interesting. That's

why I think the representing is really interesting where I think they've uh even like free fitness app they've like they're inspiring to this generation of guys and then they help them dress better and they've given them like I

feel like they give them like relatively free value and like to a certain certain degree and like make them feel like by being a part of the brand they're like leading fit better lives and like that's a powerful thing.

I mean I feel like George Heaton's really leading the the revolution of just being hot and fit and tan dude.

He's [ __ ] looks maxing dude. Yeah, I

want to buy my hoodie.

It's funny. What was it? Uh I was with I was with like another creator the other day. It's like we were talking we all

day. It's like we were talking we all like make YouTube videos and similar.

It's like like making vlog videos and it's like hey well like I don't actually run like 12 hours a day or like or go to the gym like cuz you see all the creators like you Marcus and George and all that. It's like all the vlogs I'm

all that. It's like all the vlogs I'm like god you guys really work out.

These guys are these guys doing it.

These guys are running brother.

Yeah. I was going to say like you want to see me make a rocket with my son.

So today me and my son are going to watch this panda explain. I'm going to talk to him about why you shouldn't watch this YouTube channel. Uh, but

yeah, we're going to talk about Italian brain route. Um, but it's just funny

brain route. Um, but it's just funny because like if you are in that phase and like you do have the time to be able to work out and do that, leverage that while you can cuz it doesn't last forever.

I can't make that vlog, dude. I'm I'm turning 30 and I'm like,

dude. I'm I'm turning 30 and I'm like, it's all downhill from here. Um, I I would love to kind of get into a little bit of like you breaking our brand down because

I don't feel like we are doing a great job. like we're consistent with the pod,

job. like we're consistent with the pod, but I would love to get your your um your perspective on like what could we be doing from a brand perspective. I

feel like we're really great at providing a lot of value in an entertaining way um for a lot of creators, but I think the way that we can present, you know, from maybe a

visual perspective uh could be a little bit better.

Yeah. Go ahead.

I also think that there was the golden age on TikTok. We were first like we were first on this golden era of views on Tik Tok I remember literally there was a period of time it's not like this

anymore where everything we touched on Tik Tok 10k plus we get 100,000 million like 650k and I think that the like it

said we've relied too hard on what was working for a period of time so and now I think it's so much more like we're putting so much effort into the actual YouTube show like making this thing great and growing the YouTube that

Instagram has sort of taken in Tik Tok I feel like a backseat where like it was what was working in the past like these clips were working and now I feel like you know what I mean that's kind of where I see it from person that's in it

and then I guess the last thing I'll say from from an aesthetic perspective that doesn't come naturally for me and Braden and so I think when we were first starting the show we were just like what

color and what font should we use but there's so much more that goes into branding than just font and color um and so I I think we've just kind of been winging it this whole time.

I mean, I think you uh you guys have a lot there's a lot of potential on there because you guys have really strong personalities, especially when you get in here and like engaging personalities, but that doesn't come through. A lot of podcasts make it more about the guests.

It seems like that's what's on there, too. Like your personality should be

too. Like your personality should be like a huge part of that. Um, but a I think like skits, you got to get skits in there. You guys are funny. You've

in there. You guys are funny. You've

made skits before. Every guest, it should be like, "Hey, it could be a dumb idea, but like we're gonna try a collab skit because like that's then you get this extra piece of content out of it that doesn't always have to be serious."

Since you guys are like lightly you're very serious on the pod but like lightly unserious around it. I think that's like a good thing to add in. But even little stuff like you're doing this but like there isn't like the timer compilation reel. It's like having a couple of those

reel. It's like having a couple of those vehicles people are looking for.

Especially anything time related. Like I

love Have you guys seen the Bape content they do now at the Bape store? It's so

influencing down and they watch them grab the clothes and they wait to see what the fit looks like at the end and if they got it or not and it's like rated brilliant. But I feel like time is a

brilliant. But I feel like time is a huge component for this where it's like cool if you did have something where it's like you guys have one. It's like,

all right, make that like up the the ante on on having something like that and actually posting them when they're funny. Like that the skits end and yeah,

funny. Like that the skits end and yeah, the branding I feel like has to has to evolve to something where it's like is extremely obvious as soon as someone sees it on screen that it's yours

without being too uh like off for the feed. And I and that's really achievable

feed. And I and that's really achievable like it's it's really it's font, it's color, and I would just take the 505 and like make it something very sick or make it like evershifting. Even if you had 100 505 logos and it's always changing or like well what is that like like

making that extremely prominent and whatever but like it's like taking this to the next level. It's like if that was everyone's doing all this crazy fabrication now it's like yo have that but it's made out of stone or it's made out of whatever run through AI enough times and floating in the background or

CGI behind you that's easy enough in Cap Cut. I would just be like really like

Cut. I would just be like really like making that 505 prominent with a bunch of like different visual looks. That was

a lot of ideas.

I love that. No, I'm seriously I'm super down for that. But then you're like carrying around the street like you guys are if you guys are going through all those vlogs you have but you're carrying like a stone 505 thing like then all of a sudden it's like visually exciting.

Dude, we should always travel with a 505 rock. We have someone do you see up there on the tip top shelf next to that.

We got to show that thing the world, dude.

Yeah. Someone someone sent us that. They

like wrote 505 and shipped it to us. It

was Lucas Osborne. Lucas sent it to us.

But it's funny if you guys always have it. There's like a new one. Like they

it. There's like a new one. Like they

don't even mention it, but like someone's like always carrying like a astroturf 505. There's there's like

astroturf 505. There's there's like stuff like that that like again you see that those visual vehicles and I would just super lean into humor cuz people are either following podcast because they're like cult lies like that or because they like like the guy's personality and yours is going to be driven by you're like oh these guys

feels like my friends.

I think you're right. I think yeah we have really we've done an okay job of like bringing ourselves into the content but yeah the 505 page specifically unless we're like collabing on a post is

mainly about the guest cuz the value is there. Now you need the fun and the spectacle. But that's like the fun part, especially for it seems like for y'all personalities be like, "Cool, let's lean into that."

I think maybe the reason why we kind of shied away from that. We were

doing that, but then we realized that like all the clips that we're doing the best were all value based. We were like, "Okay, we only have to do value based content on short form."

But I think, but now it's different now. It's like

multiple. All the value clips are out there. And if you do the value clips,

there. And if you do the value clips, like the edit game has to be harder because you're seeing now like with clipping, it's like there's anyone can go through a pod and rip a bunch of versions of it and like and put it to some hopeore music or whatever and like

likely go up a notch. Um but I also think too the aesthetic of like you guys follow Rob the bank.

Yeah.

Yeah. So like what he's doing now, he has like the hope edit with like the black outline and like the visuals that come up and it's like finding your own kind of trademark. He grabbed the style that was already kind of popular and sort of made it his in a really good way. But I think too if you uh like

way. But I think too if you uh like doing something like that where it's just like because anyone can if anyone can clip your podcast clip the same way then you're kind of like you're a production step behind for in terms of

short form success. So it's like how do you have that kind of unique method?

Again what I like about his it's like related to something people already see.

So it feels like you know it just like finding that little angle.

I think it also goes back though to the world building. I think we just got to

world building. I think we just got to bring people more into the world of 505 and think about what that looks like cuz even the the in real life stuff like we want to start doing events and even just

starting with a coffee meetup which we've been saying that we want to do forever. We just haven't prioritized it.

forever. We just haven't prioritized it.

But I think starting there and I think you're right. I think just like having

you're right. I think just like having more of a plan of like how can we maximize having a certain guest on the show and what kind of content can we make around that plus how can we bring ourselves more into 505 even like the little thing like doing this at the

beginning is is is awesome and it's like cool like if that was like all right we're doing you're doing flip cup with every guest or whatever it is something it's like it's funny enough where you're like especially if it's against each other there's some level of drama I just feel like there's this natural playfulness that like versus a lot of

the podcasts I've been on are so serious all the time it's like just lean into that [ __ ] you know cuz it's so social optimized cuz see what we what we do now like The one-handed crack used to be in the show, but it takes up too much time for someone who doesn't know us. Like in the

very beginning, right? It's like that's valuable real estate. They have no idea who we are. They click on said title, they're like expecting this thing, and then you have three of us talking about this can for a sec. So now we pivoted it to be like this is a social piece that'll go up the day before. Every

single episode now it'll go up and hopefully one day, you know, well, even it's like a leaderboard and it's like, oh, he took down Kane, you know? It's just like,

know? It's just like, oh, I didn't even think about that.

Damn, a leaderboard's [ __ ] good. Come

on, Orin. That's great. [ __ ] let's do that. might have to like throw all of

that. might have to like throw all of our episodes into Yeah, chat GBT and just be like make it work.

Who's the best one? Who's had the best one? It's so so interesting. This is

one? It's so so interesting. This is

going to be fun.

But then if you updated a bit like I also think people will be watching thing for an hour but it's like cool if we took a stretch break and it's like yeah and it's some other you know it's it's shuffle board or whatever. It's just

like there's something funny you be like all right. Yeah. So get that drama.

all right. Yeah. So get that drama.

Gosh, you're so you're so right. And

it's interesting because most 99% of the pods are so serious. There's no sort of not even comedic relief, but it's like this is a great place where we we're we still are lighthearted, but you're getting a lot of very valuable information.

Even the YouTubes that are doing well, like you look at again, not to harp too much on on George and Marcus, but like they're just following them through a day, right? And it's like people doing

day, right? And it's like people doing stuff is like it's like the background content on the TV. Like that's sort of where the competition area is for this.

And I think it's like cool, the grocery store run, the whatever, the like, oh hey, they're also playing a game or doing X or Y or playing pool during it.

Like I think that like natural one more level of dynamic is like where almost all of this like this kind of content is going.

It's like it's like the gal who does the uh the interviews with the very famous people at the chicken.

Yeah, exactly. Chicken shop day.

Chicken shop day. Exactly.

It's still it's a podcast.

I really want to do one. I want I want to do airwan basically where I was like cool. I want to bring all these

cool. I want to bring all these traditional I want to bring Seth Goden to airwan. That was like where I like

to airwan. That was like where I like really wanted the pot to go. Like it's

one of those ideas that never made it to life. Like, all right, let's take people

life. Like, all right, let's take people out of their element into something with like a crazy setup and be like, "All right, this is a $32 smoothie.

What do you think?

What do you think, brother?" Yeah.

Better like it.

Yeah. Coconut cream, right?

Genius.

Yeah. I think we also just uh it can feel overwhelming at times with how much I feel like we are great at thinking about all these ideas, but it can be overwhelming. We're like, we're just

overwhelming. We're like, we're just trying to stay consistent every single week with the pod, plus do everything else that we're doing. But I think like you really have to have a strong social

strategy to grow. If we want to grow the show to where we think it can get to, we have to take the content serious.

Have you guys Have you guys clipped at all or had anyone clip for you?

Like Yeah, we've had like someone cutting but never like a clip like Yeah, bro. Put that [ __ ] in [ __ ] with a

Yeah, bro. Put that [ __ ] in [ __ ] with a bounty and try and put all your episodes up there and have people do that [ __ ] for you.

Work you have to pay them.

Yeah. So, basically you start a [ __ ] inside WP. Um they're little like pods

inside WP. Um they're little like pods are called waps basically and you say cool uh hey we'll pay you you know $150 per thousand views or whatever like there's all kinds of different usually they'll hire like hey we'll give you 3500 for a million views I don't know

whatever you there's a bunch of different strategies here's your whole library here's a training on what we do and we look for and they will literally start an account whenever they post a video on that they put it in like a tracker money is automatically released as stuff hits that tracker and that's

how like you like BRZ and TJR and like they're all running through that and that's why you skew because then when you're in TikTok you're in inescapable.

If you follow TGR, you're going to get TGR clip accounts. You watch a RAW video, get a bunch of Rob clip accounts.

And so that's how they're going so well.

But since you have that big library, potentially viral [ __ ] it's really just about getting people into your [ __ ] and like having the right incentive that they'll pay the bounty.

Didn't even think about that.

That is super interesting. Have you have you experimented with any other like AI clipping things or they don't work well?

Yeah, that's Yeah, it needs to be the kid.

It's always about getting a cracked cracked 18-year-old, you know.

No, it's so interesting because we were we were thinking about potentially like experimenting with something like that.

But I feel like just the quality like maybe Exactly. Well, it needs to be like kind

Exactly. Well, it needs to be like kind of funny or kind of out there kind of whatever and then when they post it, they just need to understand like have a basic idea what's happening. Um yeah,

like a lot of the AI Yeah, just that the editing stuff isn't it isn't right.

Isn't there yet? Yeah, it's so interesting.

Yeah, we were thinking about trying like uh Opus clips. Yeah. Yeah.

We haven't tried it yet, but like uh it's, you know, you can you can get a lot of clips for not that much.

As far as like podcast clips go, do you think that they have to have like B-roll over them?

I think like unless it's to anything that's amazing will always be the outlier. If someone's saying some [ __ ]

outlier. If someone's saying some [ __ ] that's really compelling, especially if they're recognizable, like you can get some hits out of it. But like if it's you'll even notice, see people there just like you got to keep people watching. It's all that 3se secondond

watching. It's all that 3se secondond hook rate, too. It's like 3second hook rate is the biggest Instagram metric.

super similar on Tik Tok and it's like cool if you haven't swapped the shot to something else that's different in a visual way by second two you're not gonna hit the three second hit rate that's why you see everyone do the little zoomins or have the vlog other

vlog shots start and it's just like podcasts are so not set up to succeed with that metric if you don't have B-roll but also through that [ __ ] it doesn't have to be like you know because that's the thing that's why that's what's interesting about this now is like

that's a B-roll machine it's like it just needs a visual right doesn't have to be the best perfect whatever but it's like you know you get the If even if you develop something that's uniquely your own or uniquely 505 or whatever it is, like there's just something there.

Do you think people get caught up in the perfectionism of everything, especially when it comes to a brand? Somebody

somebody like you, right? Like you're

obviously very creative. You have this vision for what it want for what you want certain things to look like. You

have uh a certain like level of quality that you need to hit. But do you think that that can hinder people from Yeah, it works both works both ways 100%. I have all kinds of stuff I made.

100%. I have all kinds of stuff I made.

It's not quite the standard. And should

I post it or should I not post it? Like

I don't know. You always like have to find what that line is. I think that's like the hardest part of all this. It's

like what is good enough in shipping or not. I actually find it's much easier as

not. I actually find it's much easier as a creator than to do as a brand. But a

lot of brands shouldn't have the standard that they have. Like if you're not like a luxury brand, if it's not going to offend somebody that's in your customer base that you posted that, then it's probably good to go. At least test it.

We talked to Gary Vee about uh he thinks that luxury brands, they're so scared of posting like Tik Tok or lower quality iPhone stuff. How do you feel about that

iPhone stuff. How do you feel about that when it comes to luxury? I think as long as the story is told in the right way or an interesting way, I think those brands are you're watching like Lee and like people like do their own style on a lot of it and it's just like having your own

unique lens. I think they just need

unique lens. I think they just need creatives who are more tapped in which a lot of those brands have. It's just

enabling them. I feel like Burberry has done a good job. Lee has done a good job. Jug Moose has done a good job of

job. Jug Moose has done a good job of like opening up this new creative universe in their own ways. Bonsiaga has

done a good job. So it's certainly doable. Um, but even if you keep the

doable. Um, but even if you keep the high production, like Belmont, which is like a luxury hotel group, and they have like the uh those like luxury trains and stuff like that, they do super high production content that's excellent, but they do a lot of it because they know

like they're like basically spending the money to play the new game the right way. Could they be doing probably just

way. Could they be doing probably just as good on iPhone? Sure. But at least they're like playing the volume game.

Yeah. Talk to us about your clothing brand for a second and what made you want to create a clothing brand? Uh, so

I've had a uh I've been like a partner working with a um women's wear brand for like six years that uh I did all the meta ads and creative on all the email marketing. And so like I'm intimately

marketing. And so like I'm intimately familiar with the financials of that business and I've just kind of worked pretty deep within it. And so I started getting a following. I was like cool.

I'm interested in like I have some ideas for this. I know I have the organic

for this. I know I have the organic reach of it. I know I know the content.

I know I know the ads model. Um I also want to try this out and see what happens. But for me it's a it's like an

happens. But for me it's a it's like an experimental like I put out all these different products. I have all these

different products. I have all these different things. It's like interesting

different things. It's like interesting to me to have as a vehicle. Um, as I feel like any creator who's creative should have a brand. It doesn't have to be like, hey, you want to go build represent. It should be like here's what

represent. It should be like here's what like here's my vision. Here's an

experimental thing and if something comes of it, like that's what comes of it. So, I'm working on that now where

it. So, I'm working on that now where like I put stuff out. I see what works on ads. I see what works on content. I

on ads. I see what works on content. I

don't put nearly as much time as I'd like to in it, but it's a vehicle that's there and like my goal is I need to keep this alive. I don't want to lose money.

this alive. I don't want to lose money.

I want to invest anything in it like above what it took to start it. And

that's working. And then you kind of see what works and what doesn't and learn a lot along the way. That's why I released a lot of stuff, which is something I don't recommend. 90% of people do. It's

don't recommend. 90% of people do. It's

like, cool, I know how to create a lot of stuff. I have a wide audience. I'm

of stuff. I have a wide audience. I'm

not sure what's going to work. I love to make things. I'm just going to make a

make things. I'm just going to make a whole swath. It's not going to be like

whole swath. It's not going to be like this sold out in a drop. It's going to be like, "Let's see what works over time with ads and whatnot." And that's been really revealing and learned a lot about my audience of like, you know, I was like, "Hey, can I make a brand that may have an aesthetic that works beyond my audience? What's going to work with it?

audience? What's going to work with it?

And like what works on ads that I'm in versus not." And so, it's kind of like a

versus not." And so, it's kind of like a big experiment. But now I'm like a year

big experiment. But now I'm like a year or so in. It's like cool. Like I have sales off meta ads all the time. like

some of the products are really working.

I've also seen my demographic and being like, "Oh, I actually have a way bigger of a female audience than I thought I did." Like some of these other things

did." Like some of these other things where I'm like, "Okay, now I'm like learning a bit and I'll move through this era. We'll look at another chapter,

this era. We'll look at another chapter, but it's like cool. I have a brand for 10 years." Like the more you keep going,

10 years." Like the more you keep going, especially in fashion, well, I know what the women's wear brand was like, "All right, the first three years kind of sucked, but year four, year five, okay, now I got 40,000, 50,000, 60,000 customers in the customer base, you can

kind of release stuff forever." And like even if if you're not trying to be like we're scaling this as far as you can like your cost of customer acquisition just continues to go down and and you kind of build this this sustainable thing and I was like cool like if I'm

going to keep having an audience I might as well have a brand I can hold on to.

Uh it's been a really interesting process doing it.

Do you have a north star for this brand that you started?

Not at all. This is purely just like me experimenting um without any look or thought on it. It's a lot inspired by like I feel like the way Virgil Abau like did stuff but it's like not a good

comp. like he was trying to build

comp. like he was trying to build something to go to specific place. I

like is is Vicky purely experimental. Um

and yeah, so that's it's an interesting question because like there's not there's nothing else there like it. And

it's also not a good comp. Like I

wouldn't encourage other people to follow the comp. Like it's not a repeatable scenario. It's just it's an

repeatable scenario. It's just it's an interesting vehicle for me that I'm have a lot of ideas of where it could go. And

I like having that big amorphous like everyone's always like a brand has to be one thing that scales to X or Y or it has to be merch basically. I'm like

there's kind of an in between where it's just like this is a creative outlet of a thing that exists. There is a designer, his name is Benjamin Edgar, who makes these really like tasteful, thoughtful, out of the box designs. He releases like one of every once in a while. I really

liked his kind of approach, but I'm like less tasteful and like more interested in like objects and like mainstream things and like things that just having a vehicle to sell things I enjoy. And so

that was like one piece of inspiration, I guess.

What's been your favorite part about building your own brand? And have you learned anything in the process of building your own brand that you've consulted for these other brands, but maybe you learned something new by doing your own brand?

Yeah, I guess uh I was surprised how well the ads with me in them did.

Um that was one thing um where I just hadn't had that same I've never run ads for a brand where that had like founder creator presence or anything like that.

It's all it's been more more traditional. Um and like my ads rip and

traditional. Um and like my ads rip and like and that's an interesting interesting caveat. I was like, "Oh,

interesting caveat. I was like, "Oh, that's actually really a superpower to be able to drop that stuff in there and like know those go." Same thing with creative volume. Like the biggest thing

creative volume. Like the biggest thing I've learned from this, like a lot of brands work with are a lot bigger. I've

already had something for like from scratch. Uh where it's like, man, the

scratch. Uh where it's like, man, the amount of assets like really is is the play. Like I could already see from like

play. Like I could already see from like where I'm at on Meta and like what I sell currently and how many assets I put in every week into Ads Manager and on organic. It's like it's really a numbers

organic. It's like it's really a numbers game of if I wanted to sell as much as I wanted within reason, not talking like uh like eight figure above like within the like nine figure range, it's purely a volume a creative volume game. Uh

that's been really interesting to see.

So is that now when you're talking to brands and giving them advice is is the founder content a big piece of the advice?

Not really because I don't really work with brands that have that as a option.

Um but it's interesting to see in the toolkit have in the back of my mind and it's just a reminder on whitelisting and a few others. So I don't think there's been a ton of taken away. is because

it's operating at a small scale. But

also, I really like to still be tactically in stuff. And when I wasn't no longer working with uh Jel Blaster, I was like intimately in the ad account every day in Tik Tok with our creators every day talking through strategy. It's

like cool. Like having something where I'm still in the ad account. So I still in the women's wear ad account in my ad account. I'm tweaking it. I'm

account. I'm tweaking it. I'm

responsible for the result. That's one

of the other biggest things. A lot of people that work on these ad accounts, but they're not dollar for dollar fiscally responsible, which gives you another level in your back of your head of being like, I'm spending my money to get a result on the other side. Yes. And

I I need that level of like tenacity to then come into these scenarios and like have conviction in what I'm saying.

I'm just thinking about uh my mom has a girl's clothing line and we're doing a lifestyle shoot in a few weeks and she hasn't actually messed around with Facebook ads

and I keep telling her I'm like I don't know much about it but I just know that you're leaving a lot of money on the table. But then hearing about how your

table. But then hearing about how your playbook of, okay, we have this video shoot, we're also going to be getting photos, but having a plan for the BTS, it's got my mind thinking of like, I got

to talk to my mom and and have a a more dialed of a plan of like going into the shoot. Yeah. The biggest insight having

shoot. Yeah. The biggest insight having worked on women's ads for a long time, like fit is everything and women's bodies are so different. Dudes shop

differently. They a lot of guys will like see someone looks like them or find a creator that looks like them. Dudes,

it's more like a styling issue. It's

like, how would I wear this? Would I

wear this? What does this work with?

does work with someone who's tall or short or chubby. There's only so many things, but women is like their bodies are also different. Sizing is also weird brand to brand that showing fit I feel like is just a huge component of the sales process.

Yeah, it's really it's really And you have you found that to be true cuz my mom's it's like tween so it's like seven to maybe I've never like worked in that in that demographic. What's interesting with

demographic. What's interesting with guys like the the styling thing is so crucial with guys um where because I'll see I'll run an ad and guys will buy the fit from the ad like not like the item.

And it's like, "Oh, I'm just going to get that the blue shirt and the white pants. Gone. Done. That's the cart." And

pants. Gone. Done. That's the cart." And

it's because they just want that [ __ ] to be easy, right? And uh and it's an interesting like consumer behavior like insight to be like, "All right." Like,

and that's why I do I do these grids.

Like they don't do huge numbers on social, but I put them in email and I put them on social where it's like, "Here's how to style this item." And

I'll just have like a couple things. I'm

always choosing items within it that are like in every guy's wardrobe. It's like

black leather jacket, white shirt, like brown shoes. So then you can like see,

brown shoes. So then you can like see, oh, this is how this would work for my closet. So I just noticed that's a gate

closet. So I just noticed that's a gate for anything out of the ordinary.

anything. It's not like a t-shirt. Guys

are like, "Oh, yeah.

I need to sign up for that because I always find myself going shopping and I'll find a great piece and I'm like, that's [ __ ] sick." And then I get into my closet, I'm like, "I don't know what to pair this with."

And so, I think smart brands are building out cont like if I had way more time um I would spend much more time on that brand if I had more time, but then just like the time to money ratio with creation and stuff is like uh obviously overly overly weighted, but I feel like most brands like should lean into that

where it's like, "Hey, guess Like especially for guys stuff, it's like all right like choose these five items you have. AI will enable this great like do

have. AI will enable this great like do you have light denim? Do you have dark denim? Do you have baggage relation?

denim? Do you have baggage relation?

Okay, here's like some basics of what works inside these fits is I think something guys will I don't know if they'll go seek it out but they'll certainly if it was like oh it's already in my inbox like am I going to look at it? Yes. You know and I noticed I did an

it? Yes. You know and I noticed I did an inside I did a project for a big retailer where they can get like Gen Z social insights and one of them was that guys follow male fashion creators that look like them. Same body type was the number one thing. Doesn't matter race any of that other stuff. and we'll go

look at the fits they have in the closet and be like, "Oh, okay. Carlos did this.

Oh, I have black pant, black shirt, whatever." Like that's like a consumer

whatever." Like that's like a consumer habit for younger generation.

Gosh, I've done it.

Yeah too.

No, the same. Yeah, for sure. I

literally am looking at I want someone that has a very similar body type.

That's not even a buy necessarily. It's

just to be like, cool, what do I have that I could look cool like this guy?

Is there a product you haven't made yet for your brand that you're excited to make in the future? Yes. So, we're

working on um I sold a decent amount of these bags uh to start. So, I'm working on a bunch I have all these new bags that that we created that I'm really excited to do. Um now, that's just a category I really love. We spent a ton of time on like doing a bunch of like really high-end stuff for it. So, I'm

really excited to do that. But then also just like the complete open I love it being open. Like I have no I have no

being open. Like I have no I have no predict where this could go or not. Like

we could do whatever. Like that is an exciting thing to me. like just to have a complete vehicle and then to have that vehicle have like all these customers, all these emails, all the stuff set up so I don't ever have to be like, "Oh, I go start like the zero to one is done."

You know, the bags is crucial for guys. I'm like,

"Dude, we only got so much pocket space here. We got

here. We got the guys bags are are whack." So, you'll see we did like we had like the bag I carry. I saw a lot of these shoe bags, which is just like a really kind of simple put in your luggage, whatever. But I noticed a lot

luggage, whatever. But I noticed a lot of people were like throwing their laptop in them, like throwing stuff in them. They just want like a carry bag.

them. They just want like a carry bag.

So, I put a strap.

I made them less like logo forward and we did those like um textured. And I

also did like it's like an over the shoulder like not quite messenger, not quite like just like something in between there. And even like duff lady,

between there. And even like duff lady, everything's just not quite right. Guys

bags just aren't quite it suck, dude.

Um so I think I'm taking three stabs at it. I'm always like a stabs guy. I'm

it. I'm always like a stabs guy. I'm

like I've never I can't tell you what the perfect product's going to be, but I will design five or six things. We'll

get three of them I think are going to win and I'm going to go work real hard and then one of them will go and that's same thing with all the clothing whatever. I know some of it's going to

whatever. I know some of it's going to like not hit, but that's like how I feel like it has to be at least for someone with my framework. Bro, see, I wanted that sick bag when we were in that store in New York. N07, they had a cool little

like it was like a what what's that called? What's that thing called?

called? What's that thing called?

You know what I'm talking about. Tote.

It's like a tote. It's like a tote, right? Okay. But I wanted a cool like

right? Okay. But I wanted a cool like gym bag, bro. But because all the gym bags suck. And I have like a crappy one

bags suck. And I have like a crappy one that was gifted to me that I just use every day. But then I see some of the

every day. But then I see some of the guys at our gym and I'm like I check out this other bag that this dude had in the gym. Yo, just curious like what's that bag that you got there?

He goes, "It's Tom Ford." I go, "Of course it is. Of course it's [ __ ] Tom Ford, you [ __ ] bastard. like and I looked it up. It was it was very You feel like you could pull off a tote?

I think I could rip a tote. I couldn't

rip a tote.

I I did a leather tote. We did like an oversized leather tote. I was thinking pause. You think I can't rip a [ __ ]

pause. You think I can't rip a [ __ ] tote? Is that why you're saying that?

tote? Is that why you're saying that?

No.

I feel like I could rip a tote.

I think you could. I think honestly Okay. And Orin, I'd love to hear your

Okay. And Orin, I'd love to hear your take on this. When

I give you like the whole fit look, I'm like, could you rip a tote?

When it comes to styling, right, like somebody like Braden, who might be a little bit on the fence about rocking a tote, do you think it just comes to confidence of like I'm rocking this?

Yeah, I think at this point it's completely, dude. I appreciate that,

dude. I appreciate that, dude. You got to start rocking a tote.

dude. You got to start rocking a tote.

I feel like I could feel like I could play. I need I need a bag though that

play. I need I need a bag though that has a little bit of a You got to little community goods matcha. You know what I'm saying? You

matcha. You know what I'm saying? You

got Dude, lock me in.

I'm projecting a little bit. I don't

know if I could rock a tote, dude. I feel like most

dude. I feel like most guys underthink anything that they could purely dude. Dude, see we we went into we went

dude. Dude, see we we went into we went into in New York went into John Elliot and this one pair of pants. I was like, "Man, I don't know if I could pull those off. Put them on. Put on my sho." I was

off. Put them on. Put on my sho." I was like, "Yeah, dude. Swipe the card, brother."

dude. Swipe the card, brother."

Yeah.

No dents.

I'll take two.

Swipe the card.

So funny. What are you trying to work on in these next six to 12 months? What's

something top priority? Could be a couple things, but I'm trying to keep my head above water.

Yeah.

Um, no. I'm just trying to just getting workflow better at juggling all these things. I have all these things. They

things. I have all these things. They

all make money. They're all awesome.

What's like, do I keep them all going?

You zone in on some or the other.

Really? It's like a life prioritization.

Yeah, that's that's like the hardest thing to struggle with. I just have no even like I'd love to spend more time with that brand, but would I really love to do that compared to like I'm a part of this other big project or compared to I don't know.

You're in a in a t a hard position, but not a bad position to be in.

Yeah. It's just a odd like so it's like all these these are like existential problems. Like everything else is wonderful. Um

wonderful. Um and so it's just like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

these are all like you have a lot of questions like what do you want to do and who do you want to be and what those years look like and even that balancing that with parenthood and so yeah all my issues are existential. Life is really good besides that.

I love that. What what's some advice if you could go back and talk to your 18-year-old self? What would you say?

18-year-old self? What would you say?

Oh man, I wouldn't change but yeah just like nothing that would change it. Just

advice like you wouldn't nothing that would change the journey.

Yeah. Like oh man there's uh a lot of my advice with like he's like stronger heart I would I got married relatively young. I would encourage people to do

young. I would encourage people to do that. Um, I feel like the older you get,

that. Um, I feel like the older you get, the more complicated it gets and have a lot of people see in that in that scenario. Uh, like kids is a is another

scenario. Uh, like kids is a is another thing where I just like having kids like along for the journey and like and not separating your kids out from the stuff you do. Like everyone will always be

you do. Like everyone will always be like, "Oh, they don't talk to their kids about work or they don't bring them along. They don't do X or Y." Like

along. They don't do X or Y." Like

bringing your kid into like everything like our kid will like be at the function with us and like be great. Um,

so I think there's a a lot of the advice I have is be like around around like family and participation and what people think they want or need or when the right time is where I feel like it's so much easier to go through life like with a a unit you guys are working together on, you know?

I love it. Orin, thank you so much for coming on the show, man. Ladies and

gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. This has been another episode of

here. This has been another episode of the 505 podcast. You're still here, please hit the subscribe button, drop us a comment, leave us a like, and we'll see you all next week. Peace.