How to Start a Cult | Lulu Cheng Meservey

Today I have the pleasure of sitting down with Lulu Chang, Missouri, the founder of Rostra. She helps some of the best founders in the world basically tell their stories. I want to start this off with the idea of like how do you start a cult? Cuz many of the best

founders in the world are incredibly good at building like a culture that other people want to believe in. So how

do you start a cult?

Every cult needs a cult leader.

Mhm.

You know how to destroy a terrorist group?

Oh, go on.

You ever done one?

I've never done that.

The way to destroy a terrorist group is to make it asphilis. Asphilisphilis is

this asphilis means you cut off the head. Without the head, the group has a

head. Without the head, the group has a very hard time to survive. Um that is why anytime you're going after one of these decentralized groups or movements, you just go straight for the head. Um

when um Alexander the Great was battling Darius, he ignored everybody and just went for Darius, right? And and won the battle where he was outnumbered, they were losing. So um how does this

were losing. So um how does this translate to a founder starting a cult is you just signed up to be a cult leader. You didn't sign up to start a

leader. You didn't sign up to start a cult. You signed up to also run a cult

cult. You signed up to also run a cult and be the person that Alexander the Great is going to come charging for. You

are the person that takes the slings and arrows. And so what does that mean in

arrows. And so what does that mean in turn? Like let's just unravel this whole

turn? Like let's just unravel this whole chain of logic. What does that mean? You

are the one that sets the vision. You

are the one who has to recruit the first few the first few members. Recruiting

the first few members is the hardest thing you will ever do because you've got nothing and you look crazy. If you were going to do something

crazy. If you were going to do something normal, you wouldn't be starting a cult.

You'd be getting a freaking job. If

you're starting a cult, you're doing something that doesn't exist. And it

doesn't exist for a lot of really good reasons, which is that nobody is unhinged enough to try that. So now

you're going to try and you're going to convince the first person that it's possible and that they should leave their comfortable and lucrative

lifestyle to come be with you. Uh

probably damage their friendships and family relationships for an indefinite amount of time. Sound worse than unemployed. Probably not be able to get

unemployed. Probably not be able to get a date with like meager chances of success for equity that feels faker than an NFT. and you're gonna convince them

an NFT. and you're gonna convince them that you're gonna do this, right? And

then you have to do it a few more times.

Now, if you do it enough, the cult recruits the cult. Today, Christians

recruit Christians, right? But imagine

being the first. So, it's like kids, like you have enough kids, the kids look after the kids. I've heard that after like five, they start to really scale. I

think with a company, after 10 or so, the people recruit the people. But the

first few, the only way to do this, and there is no shortcut, is to sit across from someone, be willing to sound like a madman,

and to be so committed to the bit that you're going to look them in the eyes, and you're going to essentially swear on your life that the thing you're telling

them is possible, can be done, must be done, and will be done by you. So, it's

it's it's not a normal undertaking. It's

very unnatural.

What makes a really good cult leader?

So, some people I'll tell you what it's not.

Mhm.

Some people think it has to be um traditional charisma. I would say

traditional charisma. I would say someone like Palmer has traditional charisma. He walks into the room like he

charisma. He walks into the room like he walk into a room behind you and you feel it. Um President Trump has this. I was

it. Um President Trump has this. I was

at an event with President Trump um the first time he ran when nobody took his candidacy seriously and he walked into a room and I realized he was in the room without seeing him. I was seeing the other people and I realized he had

entered. There is that but there are

entered. There is that but there are different types of charisma. Um so for example Reiner Pope who runs Maddx and if he watches this will be totally

mortified.

um has a has a a really quiet but deep and substantive kind of charisma that if you are listening to him talk about this mission, you walk away completely convinced that it's real without the

flashiness and without any of the salesmanship. Another type of charisma

salesmanship. Another type of charisma is just being extremely high integrity and trustworthy. Um Scott Woo in the

and trustworthy. Um Scott Woo in the very early days, you know, young kid, looked even younger than he was, uh pretty introverted and quiet and the thing he was setting out to build was so

ambitious that even after he had built it, people didn't think it existed. Uh

but yet every tiny thing he said he would do, he always like overd delivered. Not just on the product, but

delivered. Not just on the product, but on, you know, personal things, matters of business, kind of like old school Sam Walton would do. There are these types

of non-traditional charisma that make people believe that their future and livelihood will be safe in your hands.

How do you think when you look at someone like Palmer coming out of Oculus, how did you basically try to lean into what made him great and allow him to basically build that cult of

personality that allowed and to succeed?

You kind of don't have a choice.

People are themselves because who the hell else could you possibly be?

Sometimes you see someone try and it's like it's really cute. You know, this might be fun for a little bit, but it's not going to work. It's never worked. I

just don't think it's ever worked because it's not sustainable. You can't

lie to everybody around the clock forever. It slips, you know. Um, but

forever. It slips, you know. Um, but

what you can do is be yourself but more.

You can really unleash yourself. And if

you unleash yourself, it might not be popular at that time and in that place, but eventually it's like if you put a magnet in a bunch of filings, it doesn't

immediately just, you know, everything attaches. Things like gradually orient

attaches. Things like gradually orient themselves the right way and then the things that were going to come start to come and takes time. That that's how it

is with your people and your following.

Palmer early on was exactly how he was at probably 15 and how he is now. You

know, people change over the course of their lives, but like the core of them, I think, doesn't really change past a certain age. And his audience

certain age. And his audience wasn't really right. It was just a bunch of random people. It included a bunch of random people who were following Facebook or what and and were really

giving him a hard time. Today you can see Palmer expressing the most explosively incorrect, politically incorrect opinions.

People should be having children at 14.

Have children at 8. If you wait till it's 10, you know, if you wait till you're 10, it's it's over.

But his audience now has been kind of curated over time where if gradually the people who do agree and do align come to him. This happened with like Roy Lee,

him. This happened with like Roy Lee, you know, he exploded onto the internet and it was just this mix of like whoever was there and people who liked him and hated him or like me were very

skeptical. What is this? And then over

skeptical. What is this? And then over time he just kept being him. He got

abandoned by a lot of his co-founders, which I thought was kind of crappy of them to leave as soon as it got difficult. And he just kept at it, which

difficult. And he just kept at it, which I really respect. And over time, the Roy appreciators kind of came out. And so

whether you're like a head of state or a founder or someone starting out, like it doesn't matter. The same thing applies,

doesn't matter. The same thing applies, which is you really have no choice but to be you. And the sooner you realize that, the sooner you can start

collecting the people and the audience that actually belong to you. Every day

that you pretend to be somebody else is a day that you are delaying the compounding of finding your people.

There's this idea that I've come to recently which is basically it is not helpful in most cases if you want to like change the world to be predictable and if people can predict you then there's kind of an issue and Elon is

like the goat at this where anytime someone thinks that they understand one of his businesses he basically just throws in a huge amount of chaos you know if they're like okay we can extrapolate Starlink and say this is how

much Starlink is going to be worth and like use a discounted cash flow analysis to value the company suddenly he's like data centers in space and in fact we're going to go like colonize the moon and build like a, you know, 100 terowatts or

whatever of power generation, something like this. And he's very good at

like this. And he's very good at constantly resetting the bounds so that he's always like undervalued in people's eyes where they can't really predict like here's how good he is,

right? And here's like the level of his

right? And here's like the level of his ambition. How does that kind of play in

ambition. How does that kind of play in resetting people's like view of your level of ambition and craziness? So, a

couple things on being unpredictable and chaotic. Chaotic is

what people call you when they don't understand what's going on. It has no bearing on whether you understand what's going on. Um, so if if we were to decide

going on. Um, so if if we were to decide to do something else with this space, which we wouldn't probably because it's so lovely, but um, if you decided to just move in here and make this your

studio, if you wanted to keep it as it was and add some cosmetic fixes, you could maybe put another plant or something. But if

you wanted to turn this into a cathedral to podcasting and you wanted to really make it yours, that doesn't happen without a phase where it looks like you have destroyed this place. Doesn't

happen. There's no path from A to B that doesn't go through something that looks like a pile of rubble where you've taken a really beautiful, lovely, totally

functional room and wrecked it. Right?

And people in the moment always forget that. What can help if you care that

that. What can help if you care that that people know that there's a destination? Sometimes you do have to

destination? Sometimes you do have to care because you have shareholders or your employees need to not freak out or you know sometimes you do have to care about other people. If you care about

reminding people that from here to there there is an alternate ultimate destination past the chaos phase. I

strongly recommend giving people the Domino's pizza tracker.

You have to tell them what is the finished pizza and you have to remind them constantly. So I as a pizza tracker

them constantly. So I as a pizza tracker super user is uh find great comfort in being like oh they're just sprinkling the peppers on. They didn't forget about me. But in

on. They didn't forget about me. But in

the moment people forget about everything else. We we're just trained

everything else. We we're just trained to react to what's going on around us which already gives us information overload. don't have time to emotionally

overload. don't have time to emotionally connect that back to the thing that we remember it's supposed to go towards.

So, just constantly remind people we are here. This is the finished pizza. This

here. This is the finished pizza. This

is the finished podcast studio. This is

the finished rocket. This is the finished plant, whatever it is. And

here's where we are and give them constant updates on where you are.

Yeah. There's this uh fun thing where acquisitions are basically like organ transplants and sometimes they take and sometimes they don't. I was listening to the Walter Isaacson of Elon on the ride

over here and they were basically I was listening to the moment where Elon took over X, you know, formerly Twitter. And

at the time there was these like rounds of layoffs and cuts and they cut super deep. And then at one point in order to

deep. And then at one point in order to kind of cull the herd into the people that actually wanted to be there uh and make sure that they were just all killers, they were thinking about sending out this email and it was basically like here are our core values

and if you don't want to be a part of it, click this box and you'll get 3 months of severance and then you're out.

And then right at the like 11th hour, Elon swapped it and it was like no you have to opt in. You have to opt into the hardcore culture that we're building.

Why was that so important?

Everything compounds and everything is everything good is better if it happens earlier.

Getting rid of people who feel like a deep state inside your company who are going to be leaking and killing the morale of others and slowing things down and doing everything in that CIA sabotage manual to like wreck an

organization from the inside. You want

to do that as quickly as possible. And

so um moving that up front as opposed to letting people just kind of quiet quit later is a good idea. While we're

talking about um Elon and being unpredictable though, one thing that always comes up is people say, "Well, you advocate for going direct, but look

at Elon going direct and he makes so many mistakes and he puts his foot in his mouth." And the answer is you have

his mouth." And the answer is you have to look at the net the net result of this. You can't look at one tweet in

this. You can't look at one tweet in isolation or one incident. There's

nothing that gets built. Not an

audience, not a movement, not a company.

There's nothing that doesn't get built with some errors along the way. You just

have to bake it in. But having built the largest audience on the most significant social media platform, you're going to tell me that it's not worth it because

over time along the way, people have gotten upset about things. So now he has got his own platform, not just as the owner, but as the owner of an account,

and has a way to contest media narratives written by people who actively loathe him. And how is that possibly not worth it? So, so the reason I bring this up is because when people

think about, okay, I'm the founder. I'm

the cult leader. I need to put myself out there.

That feels bad. I'd rather just sit in my room and code. I'd rather just quietly go about my day and not expose myself to the tomato throwers of the

global town hall. Um, you can't think of it as how will people react to this thing I say or this thing I do. It is

how will people care about what we're doing if over the next year, 5 years, 10 years I'm not giving them a reason to follow along

with the story. You mentioned another podcast in the story of Napoleon basically sending people to die and the language that he used to send people to die made them voluntarily sign up to do

it. Do you want to talk about the like

it. Do you want to talk about the like power of using the right language and in the context of that story?

So what is language?

What is language is it is symbols that represent ideas. And because no idea can

represent ideas. And because no idea can be perfectly 360° encapsulated in something, they're they're a little bit of shortorthhand. And so the language

of shortorthhand. And so the language becomes an association that evokes a mental image that then evokes feelings or ideas or connection, whatever else.

So when you give something the right language, it makes people think about the thing and it makes people think about the thing in a certain way. So in

the case of Napoleon, he had these guys guarding a cannon that was within gunshot range of the Austrians. And the

people guarding this cannon had 100% casualty rate. Not that they all died,

casualty rate. Not that they all died, but they all got shot. And so he needed to replenish guys to go guard this cannon. And so imagine you're going to

cannon. And so imagine you're going to go to your troops and be like, "Who wants that job?" It's like something out of the Simpsons. It's like comically difficult to pitch. And what he did was

he gave this group a name and he called them lesson which means the men without fear. So instead of saying would you

fear. So instead of saying would you like to go get shot guarding this cannon he said who are going to be the next batch of the men without fear and he filled it with volunteers and people who

raised their hands to be part of that.

And this is how we get people for difficult missions. Whether that is

difficult missions. Whether that is going to the moon or working for a startup, which when you describe what working for a startup is, it sucks. It

sucks. And for someone to want that job, they have to picture it as something else, right? They have to picture this

else, right? They have to picture this as we're bringing nuclear energy back to America. We're making humans and

America. We're making humans and interplanetary species. We're making

interplanetary species. We're making robots available in every home. That's

the thing I'm doing. It's not that I'm sitting in this office for 18 hours a day eating ramen out of a box. That it's

not that. It's a not b. So, um, that's the example for language. This has

happened, by the way, throughout history where the words we use shape how we see something, including literally. So, in

in a lot of languages around the world, the word blue didn't exist for a long time cuz there's not a lot of blue in nature. So if you and I are just walking

nature. So if you and I are just walking around in our loin cloths or whatever, sorry for the image. Um we we would have

occasion to say um green well actually the sky is blue. So now I'm starting to question but people merged green and

blue um as one concept. The people who speak those languages physically literally can't see the difference between green and blue as well. just can't see it. So when

well. just can't see it. So when

something doesn't exist as a language concept, it just doesn't exist to us.

This happens with um the the word teenager and adolescent that um it became a concept and and um the words became more commonly used I think around the turn of the 20th century where

before you were either a child or an adult. Imagine being 15 and having to be

adult. Imagine being 15 and having to be treated as a child or as an adult and that led to basically child abuse. It

led to child labor. people would heir on the side of treating children as adults so that you would yeah go get a job you're 15 already you're a grown-up go get married like Palmer's telling you to

and when the concept of being an adolescent and being a teenager was introduced suddenly people now gave them a new category we need to treat them differently there are services available

like mental health services advertising marketing and it became a discreet thing we we now are missing that word for a lot of concepts that I think are just like open season for anyone who wants to

coin. But for example, the space between

coin. But for example, the space between being an adult and being an old person has really changed. It used to be you were 65, you would retire, now you're an old person. Now there are people who are

old person. Now there are people who are like 76 who are pretty spry and working and they're not scenile. They're not

scinsesscent. They're not a retiree, but they're also not like you. Um, and maybe we should treat them differently. So, so

the takeaway for someone starting a company is you're making a new thing for maybe a new use case, you might want to

consider giving the thing a name if it didn't exist before because um if people are using shorthand or or if people are using existing language, it might make it seem like your thing is not actually

needed because they're not thinking of this gap as an actual category. on the

case of Anderal, I don't think anyone has really gone through the early days of Anderl and how you helped build what the like culture is and the vibe uh and

the brand of Ander is today and specifically around even people liking it and choosing who to alienate.

The first thing I'll say is that the founders choose to do this. you know, no other person whether inside, outside the company, their parents, like no no

people besides the people starting the company are able to set the tone of the culture and decide what to stand up for.

You can't like weekend at Bernie's wheel somebody in and get them to be to be credible. Um, so so I'm I'm more

credible. Um, so so I'm I'm more speaking as somebody who I think helped facilitate and support, but really this is them. Um, you can't like attach a

is them. Um, you can't like attach a spine from the outside, you know, it has to be there. It's really important to choose whose side you're not on.

The people who avoid picking a side, it's not that they are then beloved by everybody. It's that they're beloved by

everybody. It's that they're beloved by nobody. They're you're in the

nobody. They're you're in the demilitarized zone. You're you're no

demilitarized zone. You're you're no man's land. So, you might as well pick a

man's land. So, you might as well pick a side or eventually one will get chosen for you kind of half-hazardly. And so,

uh, saying that we're not on the side of the people who believe that it's morally wrong to work with the military and we are on the side of the people in uniform, um, at least makes it so that

the people who do believe that feel like they find a home with you. And the

people who don't, this is like the the Elon email. You do not want them here.

Elon email. You do not want them here.

They're they're a time bomb. There are

people that you might employ that will actually destroy your company from the inside. The most catastrophic,

inside. The most catastrophic, destructive crises are always inside of a company. You you see these things

a company. You you see these things happen where CEOs get attacked from the outside all the time. Like Brian

Armstrong um he was attacked from inside and outside and so he got rid of the people who were attacking from the inside and then he was only attacked from the outside and that was fine. And

it was fine. And like two months later everything was better than before. But

when you see people get um attacked by their own employees and they're not able to manage that and they're not able to make a hard decision like Brian did, that's when the company is just I think not going to make it.

Sam Alman recently came out after someone like threw a Molotov cocktail at his house and he effectively said, "I worry that I've been too like non-confrontational." And I think that

non-confrontational." And I think that was like his one of his biggest weaknesses over the past, you know, 20 years as he's been building his companies. What is the power of being

companies. What is the power of being like confrontational and being willing to like fight?

You know the phrase, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. When you fight for someone, you can be so much

stronger and more powerful than if you're fighting for yourself. So, this

is like a hack, but you uh defending yourself comes off as like self-interested. You know, people

self-interested. You know, people discount it. But you

discount it. But you can be somebody with identical interest to yours, but you advocating for them is

so much more powerful. So there was a there was a company that um I had and I was a leader in the company and we were um we had someone who was making the

case that tenure shouldn't determine how much you were paid. You know, you shouldn't have to work there longer to get paid more. It should just be straight up on performance. And I also happen to believe that. But if I had

said, hey, you know, I know I have no comms experience, but I feel like I should get paid based on my output. It's

not as strong as me advocating for her and saying she doesn't need to be here for uh 10 years in order to get paid at the level of someone who's been here for 10 years but isn't performing as well as

her. That's not fair. And so you can

her. That's not fair. And so you can literally just pick someone else to support and then put yourselves on the same side and you can come out so much more forcefully and not have that be

discounted. That's one. Two is people

discounted. That's one. Two is people see sincerity when you're um willing to do something costly. And getting into a fight is pretty costly. I don't

recommend doing it all the time because it's draining. You know, you fight to

it's draining. You know, you fight to win. You don't just get in a fight and

win. You don't just get in a fight and then leave. Like if you're in the fight,

then leave. Like if you're in the fight, put some effort. You're going to be in the fight and it's going to be painful.

It's going to you're going to take some blows. It's going to be damaging maybe.

blows. It's going to be damaging maybe.

But when people see that you are willing to do that, they believe that your principles are real. And so I think Sam is correct. Um maybe maybe that is the

is correct. Um maybe maybe that is the case. Like I don't know psychology, but

case. Like I don't know psychology, but it sounds like a good analysis.

You talked about the threebody problem and deterrence and how Palmer is kind of like the prototypical. I think Elon is another one of these things where if you come after him, he is just going to throw everything that he has at you. Um

so that it's very costly for you to come after him and then over time less and less people want to do so. Um

why is deterrence like so important and what is it? Everything is about incentives and as you move through the world, you have to shape people's incentives for how to interact with you.

And so when you see uh young women being told or telling each other or themselves like um treat yourself in a way that demands respect from men you go on dates

with or people um demanding to be taken seriously by an employer or all of these things are just us trying to shape incentives for how people should

interact with us.

there is a real incentive like a default incentive for people on the internet to just take pot shots because they get engagement out of it. And it's like the

le there's a quote about um um is it politics? It's so vicious because the

politics? It's so vicious because the stakes are so low. It's like the people for whom the stakes are the lowest are the most vicious because they have the more upside, right? And so you the the

more you gain exposure, the more people are going to take shots at you to try to get the upside. And so you have to be actively reshaping incentives. And this

is where we go back to the idea of plan for the long term. It is not about temporary pain avoidance.

Do not pursue temporary pain avoidance.

It's not a legitimate goal.

Set your sight on the finished pizza and do what it takes to get there. And

sometimes it'll look nonsensical to others and that's okay. You'll just

swallow that. Sometimes it'll be painful for you and that's okay. You'll just

deal with it. But at the end of the thing, you'll have your delicious hot pizza the way that you wanted it. As

opposed to somebody who gets who gets blocked by basically their own psychology. They get blocked by fear.

psychology. They get blocked by fear.

they get blocked by um wanting to please or wanting to fit in or the these things are all fake. They're in our heads. But

these people who are blocked by the things in their own heads will just stay back at stage one while you're enjoying your pizza.

What do you think the best examples are of people or situations that you've seen where you could tell that there was this temporary pain avoidance that led to some massive blowup?

I think Google had this.

Google for a long time let activists run rampant in the company and each

individual instanced was not severe enough to take dramatic action. And so

in in diplomacy there's a concept of sausage slicing or salami slicing. And

so let's say I want uh this piece of territory that you have and I ask you for it, you would say no. But if I were to encroach a couple inches and you let

me and then I encroach a couple inches more or um I just start to have have my people just kind of walk through there.

It's very hard for you to identify one moment in time when it doesn't feel like you're overreacting to something small.

And so I can salami slice my way to a bigger piece of salami. Right? This is

this is why the US does like freedom of navigation patrols in the South China Sea because if you don't then others in the region or China can sort of salami slice their way to um control

regional hegemony. Yeah. Um so it is

regional hegemony. Yeah. Um so it is really important to resist being salami sliced by your own employees above all but anybody. So in the Google example

but anybody. So in the Google example there were just these signs. I mean,

James Deore was probably one of the larger signs, but daily things of people saying things at work that just have nothing to do with making the best

technology. And then eventually it comes

technology. And then eventually it comes to a head where you have to base major business decisions on having um an overwhelmingly ideological monolithic

workforce. And now you're in a very very

workforce. And now you're in a very very painful um position of do you piss off like 60% of your employees

uh or do you handcuff yourself and not participate in government or military programs that where you could actually do a lot of good now your decisions are much harder because you avoided the temporary pain of just cutting it off

when it would have seemed like you're overreacting. I think the the essential

overreacting. I think the the essential lesson is don't be afraid to be seen as if you're massively overreacting. This

is something that Elon is quite good at.

Again, it looks like chaos to someone who doesn't know what you're doing.

That's their default word for it. So, if

it's like one person does one small thing and then you react with like overwhelming force, it can look like a massive overreaction, but what you're doing is actually you're reacting to the

hundred things that would have happened.

You're not reacting to the one thing.

You're reacting to the hundred things that would have happened that now won't.

And so, the guy who went on your podcast and I think he immediately got fired for it.

Oh, yeah.

There were people who thought that that was maybe an over inspired me. Let's

me. Let's forgot about that. Um

Oh, yeah. I was I was thinking about it.

I was waiting to bring it up. That

I think some people saw that as an overreaction.

I did not see it as an overreaction. You

know, blessings and best wishes to that guy, but it he he kind of took one for the team because what happened to him

was deterrence for everybody else. It's

like once you have a very leaky culture, what do you what do you even do? You

fire everybody. Like at that point, it becomes very very hard to manage. But if

you are willing to do what looks like overreacting along the way, then you can manage that a lot better. And today XAI has one of the much much less leaky

cultures um than most other companies of that size and scale.

How do you actually stop that? So if you do, you know, taking back from that example, um if you do ever end up, you know, finding yourself in a situation where you have a very leaky culture, I

remember when another thing from Walter Isacson biography is Elon said, "Things keep on leaking to the press, we got to have that stop."

How do you actually stop that? Like if

it's happening at your company, stopping it is hard and brutal.

Mhm.

And you have to be willing to go into tyrant mode a little bit. like you can we try to weed people out, you can hire like investigators,

you can try to monitor people, you know, um but at that point it's like trying to weed out al-Qaeda from the village population. It's just very difficult cuz

population. It's just very difficult cuz they look the same, you know, they look the same, they're sitting at the same desk, like who is it? And then you have

to do things that feel um bad to you and to them in order to get to that point. So, so I I think that it can be improved, but prevention is is

better. And so, an

better. And so, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure sort of situation.

Yes. Um, prevention is better. And what

prevention looks like is actually a lot of it comes down to personal loyalty to the founder. It's not about installing

the founder. It's not about installing the software on the laptop or having policies or signing NDAs. the the

biggest fake LARPY thing in the world is signing NDAs. I never

signing NDAs. I never never has that had an impact on anyone or anything. And the most sensitive

or anything. And the most sensitive situations I've ever been brought into, I don't think I've signed NDAs.

Yeah. It's almost like uh you have to have trust built in your, you know, small cadre.

You either trust or you don't. if if

it's at the point where like you think the piece of paper is protecting you, something has already gone wrong. So So

this is where it goes back to the founder as the cult leader. Personal

loyalty is what will make people do the thing. It it's what makes people

thing. It it's what makes people understand commander's intent and um internalize it and follow the spirit, not the letter. And that's what you want. It's not like this doesn't

want. It's not like this doesn't technically violate my NDA that I read closely or I won't be I won't be caught.

It's like I don't want to because I signed up to this to work for him and do this thing and I want to work for him because I like him and I want to do this thing cuz I think it's important. So why

would I do something that damages the company? Why would you have someone

company? Why would you have someone working at the company that wants to damage the company or who is trying to help the company but doesn't have the judgment to know what helps the company?

Both of those are really messed up and something has gone really wrong. So,

personal loyalty, founder connection to their people, that is the best and only way to prevent having a leaky culture. I

have a general philosophy that if I will like default assume good in people when I meet someone until I see something unless it's like a high trusted person that I know that has

told me otherwise um for a specific individual but I think loyalty is like vastly undervalued in a way undervalued.

Yeah. How should you actually approach loyalty and like who you surround yourself with and who you don't? I think

the right approach is to offer acts of loyalty and then see what gets reciprocated.

Um, so I appreciate the way that you move through life basically is to just offer acts of goodwill and then see what comes back. And then it's like the

comes back. And then it's like the opposite of Nigerian prince fishing.

Nigerian prince fishing is like you blast out these shitty fishing emails that are like poorly executed and badly written and then you see who's dumb enough to click and then you engage with

them further. Um the loyalty building

them further. Um the loyalty building version of that is you are putting acts of goodwill out into the world and they don't have to be expensive or elaborate every time but they can be um small things like my

they have to be meaningful.

They have to be meaningful even if they're not like expensive or elaborate they have to like mean something to the person.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. And then

you see which ones reciprocate and then you engage with those. And so it's like the um Nigerian prince fishing scheme for goodwill. But good the the other

for goodwill. But good the the other thing on on founders building loyalty um the you know the book uh leaders eat last

and I agree with the concept um which is one of like putting your people first but in practice the best leaders are the leaders that eat at the same time in the

same place. Literally eating with people

same place. Literally eating with people is such a symbolic act that forms connections. Like the best founders that

connections. Like the best founders that I think of today just have lunch with their teams out in the lunchroom. You

know, I saw Scott Woo doing that yesterday. Um you you are just one of

yesterday. Um you you are just one of the people. Napoleon did that. Julius

the people. Napoleon did that. Julius

Caesar did it. There's no new innovation on how to relate to people. It's do the job at a level that they can respect. So

like the reason that Cognition is able to recruit these like incredibly elite coders is because they respect Scott as a leader. Um two is be among them as a

a leader. Um two is be among them as a peer and not somebody that so like at PepsiCo um I remember when Inanui was

CEO she actually put in efforts you know one of my old colleagues um a mentor of mine helped her do this and put in efforts to just go out onto the floors

and to just be among the people. Um so

just live how they live, eat what they eat at the same time so they see you.

And then lastly, if you ask them to do something, you do it right.

Yeah. I remember there was uh the like prototypical example is basically Elon on the production line in 2018 and there was a hotel across across the street that he could have stayed at and it would have been a comfortable bed, but instead he was like, "No, just give me,

you know, I'll just sleep on the floor right outside the not even in the conference room. The conference room had

conference room. The conference room had a couch, but the fact like if people were walking by the conference room, they wouldn't know that he was in there.

Whereas if he's on the line just sleeping there and there's all these machines and stamping process going in the background and very high in it as they will work harder.

Yeah. Ernest Shackleton when he was with his men and they were taking turns rowing and everybody was like frostbitten and miserable and they tried to give him easier shifts. He actually

demanded that he not be given different treatment and that that is what makes people go above the letter and follow the spirit is if they feel that from

you. So it it sounds very like touchyfey

you. So it it sounds very like touchyfey Oprah, but the way you communicate is through what you say, what you do, and then also visuals. We can talk about

that. Like the the visuals of something

that. Like the the visuals of something stay with with people for a long time.

And that can be an act of leadership or inspiration. So like when the German

inspiration. So like when the German chancellor Billy Bront went to visit Warsaw and uh he he went to see the the

monument honoring the Jewish people who had who had risen up. Um he stood there and then he just silently dropped to his knees and then he just kneelled there

and this is called the genulection. Um

and that statement said so much about him representing the German people and and how they viewed the the Nazis actions then and I think um really

helped to reshape relationships uh between Germany and Poland. It it did so much and it was just the visual of this

man on his knees saying nothing. You can

combine these things. So you can use words to paint visuals. So there's like visuals visuals. I gave you the Billy

visuals visuals. I gave you the Billy Bront example which is like a a very um extreme and and lofty example. There's

also Steve Jobs and the MacBook Air. And

this was when he was on stage. I think

it was 2008 and he just had the envelope and it was like it was like a secret manila envelope and he takes it out. Same thing that he did with the original iPod where he's

like this is you know this is your pocket for like a pen or a phone and then he's like what what the [ __ ] is this pocket for? And it's just he just pulls out this little device and he's like this is what goes in there.

The visuals stay with you. Um,

sometimes it's it's not a a visual of an image, but sometimes it is imagining a thing that feels so vivid. So, like when

Jensen was unveiling the DJX1, uh, there were a lot of technical specs um, that they did share eventually, but

what really stood out for me is that he talked about time to train AlexNet. This

is a madeup metric like time to train AlexNet is not a standard metric um used anywhere. Uh but it's the thing that I

anywhere. Uh but it's the thing that I remember and he said that if you had if you were using Intel equipment that

training AlexNet would take 150 hours whereas using his gear it would take 2 hours. Now I think he could have

hours. Now I think he could have actually dramd it up a little bit more.

I think he could have said like um with Intel it would take over six days and with us it takes two hours

and then um just leave people with just the perception that this is a completely different category. Um oh the same same

different category. Um oh the same same same launch announcing the DGX1 and he called it a data center in a box. Now

there were all of these technical um specs that he could have gone into and they did. But data in a data center in a

they did. But data in a data center in a box just shortcut through all of that.

It became the thing that people remembered. The thing that I remembered

remembered. The thing that I remembered that is so much more powerful than saying we are faster, we're better. All

of these subjective things that people just discount again because it's you saying it about yourself. Now somebody

else saying that about you might carry more weight, but if you're going to say it about yourself, people assume that you are hyping yourself up and you are going to make yourself look good. And so

you have to use these images and analogies and be really concrete to give people the thing to imagine.

How do you make yourself someone that people want to root for in the sense of you know that you shouldn't be congratulating yourself. No

one likes that.

But having other people that are like trusted tweet, you know, I really like Tai or I really like Lulu is very powerful. So how do you actually design yourself to be someone that people want to celebrate and help?

People have no reason to root for Tai per Tai, you know. Um, you as a person represent things that people like and that is why

they root for you. I'll I'll speak about me because I root for you. Um, and here here are the reasons.

Thank you, Lulu.

Yes, you're welcome. Here are the reasons. Uh, you do things that I would

reasons. Uh, you do things that I would like to see more of in the world. So,

you are a vector for something that I want. Mhm.

want. Mhm.

And that's that's it's a it's a a normative good, but it also comes back to self-interest in a in the sense that I like when people are not transactional

and form long-term relationships and put positive things out into the world and are willing to take to make the first move of putting something positive into the world and not waiting until someone

does it for them first. And you do that and you become a symbol of this happening. And I like that. Also, um I

happening. And I like that. Also, um I root for you because when you succeed

at turning this podcast into something that people care deeply about, it tells me that they care about something that I also care about, which is I want people

to be thinking about the power of stories and being inspired by the stories of others and having that actually alter their own energy and morale and behavior.

Everything I think is inherently selfish in that way, but it's because I relate to you and I

see elements of what I would like to be in you and because what you do represents something that I want to see more of. It's not like I see you sitting

more of. It's not like I see you sitting there as a guy and I'm like I'm just going to root for this guy, right? So I

I think at the end of the day, people root for things that they want, things that they like, and things that remind them of them. And if you are that, they'll root for you. You know, the the

probably apocryphal story of President Kennedy visiting NASA and he had announced we're going to go to the moon and he goes to pay a visit and it's after hours and there's a janitor just

cleaning and he greets him and says, "What do you do here?" And he says, "Mr. President, I'm helping us get to the moon." So, so if people understand this

moon." So, so if people understand this also goes back to you want people to understand the spirit and not the letter and you want people to sign up for the spirit and not the letter. And so if

you're recruiting someone for a job at a startup, that job is objectively worse than being a janitor in every way. Like

being an early employee at a startup is incredibly grueling. And hopefully it

incredibly grueling. And hopefully it pays off, but you have no guarantee that it will. And the only way to make

it will. And the only way to make someone be genuinely super excited about that and not be doing tiny things to cut corners in ways that you'll never see

and performing tiny acts of disloyalty that you'll never find out about is for them to be fully bought in that they are helping to get to the moon and that their work is needed in that. It's the

same situation I think at Boeing versus SpaceX where Boeing, you know, you ask some random engineer, you're like, "What are you working on?" And it's like, "I'm working on some space capsule and you ask someone random at SpaceX." And it's

like, "What are you working on? What are

you about?" And they're like, "We are making life multilary."

Mhm. There are three levels to to a story for a company. The first level uh and these are like in ascending order of difficulty as well, but the first level is just literally what are you even

doing? Half of startups and half of

doing? Half of startups and half of startup founders probably can't even articulate just that. What is this thing? Level two is what does that

thing? Level two is what does that represent? What is the upshot of you

represent? What is the upshot of you doing this successfully? And then level three is what is the shape of the dent in the universe and in society if this works like if this actually works. And

so for SpaceX, level one might be we're building a rocket. Pretty cool. Not

maximum cool. Level two is we're building a rocket to restore American space flight from the private sector uh to revive an industry that's been

stagnant for decades.

More inspiring, not final form. Level

three would be we're restoring space flight from America, humanity's last best hope, because we need to make mankind an interplanetary species.

And so the levels of this, they're they're all true. They're all as realistic. You know, if one happens,

realistic. You know, if one happens, then two will probably happen, then three might happen. You know, like um these three levels correspond to the quality of talent you can get and

how hard they'll work for you. So like a minus talent will work a minus hard for the first thing but A++ talent will

dedicate their lives and sacrifice sleep and food and hobbies for the third thing. So a lot of founders and when you

thing. So a lot of founders and when you talk about starting a cult what do you need? You need the vision for the cult.

need? You need the vision for the cult.

That first level is not cult level. The

second level on the edge but the third level that's the cult level. So you need to have going we're like assembling the ingredients for a cult as we go along.

One is you need the cult leader. You

need to be willing, ready and able and you need to be able to build the relationships and the personal trust um and loyalty to do it. Two is you need

that big mission and the mission is that level three of story of what people are trying to achieve. Something that I've been thinking about is

right now today everybody is so worried about distribution.

Everyone is obsessed with distribution.

And in a way I'm happy because part of that is what going direct was meant to do is is build your own distribution.

But distribution raises the question of what are you distributing?

What are you distributing? Is it is it what people want?

cases like clavvicular where I mean you you know he may get like two billion views last month but then you ask like what what is the thing the impact that you want in the world and I can't tell you what comes of it and now now for him if

his goal is exposure and to get people to think about look m looks maxing maybe he actually did achieve his goal um whether that's our goal or not is

indifferent he achieved let's say his goal but um think of it like a complete story like a dish and first you've got the ingredients. You have to pick what

the ingredients. You have to pick what you're cooking and you have to get the ingredients. Then you have the

ingredients. Then you have the preparation and then you have the plating.

Distribution is the plating. And so if it's plated crappy, people are not going to want it. That can undermine a really good dish. But if the dish is good

good dish. But if the dish is good enough, it can overcome good plating.

And good plating can't save a bad dish.

So like the first part on ingredients is what actually is the story? And do you have the facts to back it up? Do the

facts match the story that you're trying to tell? So today, couple hours before I

to tell? So today, couple hours before I came here, I attempted to design my own sushi roll. I went I don't recommend it.

sushi roll. I went I don't recommend it.

I went to a restaurant and it was super wellreed and I saw the sushi chef and he seemed like he was really good and I was like, I'm just going to how hard can it be?

I'm going to just do things. I'm gonna

be high agency and design my own sushi roll. And the waitress is like, "Okay."

roll. And the waitress is like, "Okay."

I'm like, "Here I go." And I listed like stuff I like. And I just made a list of things that I like. And she was like, "Okay, we will put this together."

Highly inadvisable. It was like that pizza that has like the M&M's and the like the rotisserie chicken. That was my sushi roll. I ate like half of it.

sushi roll. I ate like half of it.

The plating was beautiful. The preparation was very

beautiful. The preparation was very skillful, but no amount of skill, like no pair of skilled hands could have

saved the list that I gave to that waitress and and could have overcome like my judgment.

And and so um you the um you know the the cartoon of Waldo from Where's Waldo sitting at a bar? and he's like, "Nobody ever asks how is Waldo?"

People are always asking, "What podcast can we go on? How do we get our message out? Um, how do we make our tweet go

out? Um, how do we make our tweet go viral?" And very rarely do people ask,

viral?" And very rarely do people ask, "What are we trying to say?" And if your message sucks, if the ingredients are bad and the dish is inherently not good,

right? Um, if your message sucks, you

right? Um, if your message sucks, you could have a twominut Super Bowl commercial. You could go on Joe Rogan.

commercial. You could go on Joe Rogan.

can have a billboard in Times Square and nobody is going to care because it's not about the distribution if your message is not good.

Yeah. There's also this amazing um Did you ever watch the S Simon scenic talk where he was talking about the why, how, and then what?

Yeah. The start.

It's just this amazing so basically like there's there's these concentric circles and at the center it's the why and like why do you do what you do and then it's how how do you do it and then what are

you actually doing? And he said the best storytellers like Steve Jobs. He's like

he starts with a why and he's saying you know this is what like this is why we do what we do at Apple. This is why we wake up in the morning. We are you know for Elon it's like we are making life multilanetary. That is our mission. That

multilanetary. That is our mission. That

is why we wake up in the morning. And

then it's like how do we make life multilanetary? Um that might be we build

multilanetary? Um that might be we build rockets that are reusable and all this stuff. And then it's like what do we do?

stuff. And then it's like what do we do?

And it's like I'm you know soldering something. And I think most you know

something. And I think most you know when I have most interactions with people at like a party I will say like you know who are you and they will basically start with the what they will be like I am building AI spreadsheets

and I'm like I don't really care if you start with and and then the best storytellers like they don't do that they start with here's why like I am not doing a podcast I am trying to help you know if I look at like my mission it's

like I want to help the highest leverage people in society are founders and so how do you get more founders to start companies and the right companies And it's like, okay, uh, we need, you know,

for me it's I want more people to even realize that they can start companies.

And then two, I want the people that do start companies to work on more important missions. And so then it's

important missions. And so then it's like, okay, well, if that's our why, then we're going to probably do a bunch of interviews that are not like directionally. They won't get a million

directionally. They won't get a million views, but they do kind of show like, okay, go work on nuclear reactors or go do cloud seating or all these other things because that is like directionally correct. And over time,

directionally correct. And over time, you'll just build this brand of, you know, there's all these other podcasters and then there's like Relentless and they're like celebrating, you know, great founders and great companies. And

like if I'm directionally, you know, associated with that and I believe in the idea that we want great companies and and more great founders, then I like am aligned with relentless.

Mhm. A lot of people have within them a really special secret truth that only they know.

Mhm.

Right. It's like something that should be done, something that is actually possible and people haven't realized it yet and it's a secret truth within.

I think what sadly happens is that the vast majority of people assassinate that within themselves because they look around and it doesn't seem like others

have it and they gaslight themselves into believing that it must be fake.

Sometimes people will trust themselves over the world, which is very hard to do to trust yourself over millions of others and people who are smarter and taller and richer and more important, you know, to say like I'm right over

them. It's

them. It's I mean, if you if you're in the uh if you're in the village with 200 other people and you go on your, you know, go off on your own um and you don't listen to the rest and you're like, I'm going to go pave my own way, you die really

quickly. So, this is kind of designed

quickly. So, this is kind of designed this is true. This is true. and and we have to sometimes be able to overcome that. People are on autopilot most of

that. People are on autopilot most of the time. Here's the thing that I did. I

the time. Here's the thing that I did. I

I was working for JP Morgan in New York and one day for no real reason I made these signs and I got them laminated and

the signs I I put them in in the bathrooms. Go on.

I made these signs. I laminated them and I put them in the bathrooms. And the signs said, "Times are tight. Everyone

has to do their part. We ask that you participate in the cost of maintaining this bathroom. Every square of toilet

this bathroom. Every square of toilet paper.

So stupid.

Every square of toilet paper uh cost 10 cents. Every pump of soap cost 15 cents.

cents. Every pump of soap cost 15 cents.

Every paper towel cost a quarter. What's that?

Someone feels woke.

Well, and then I put these like collection boxes.

I didn't want, you know, I wasn't trying to get 45 cents or whatever. I just

wanted to see what would happen.

And I went back the next day. I I waited till after hours and I put these up everywhere. I went back the next day and

everywhere. I went back the next day and there was like real money inside like a few hundred bucks or something or like a few tens of dollars.

Few tens. And it's like this completely nonsensical request. And are we

nonsensical request. And are we Americans or what? Like what do you mean you're going to look at this sign that requests you to pay for your toilet paper? This like absurd on its face

paper? This like absurd on its face undignified and completely unnecessary request from JP Morgan the corporation.

Like nothing about it made sense. And

yet people put money into the box, which makes me feel like people have an overwhelming bias to just do the thing they feel like they're supposed to do.

And that is actually a pro-social instinct, like we shouldn't be trying to decide our own Bart fairs or something.

Um, but then when the moment calls for it and you as a founder or as a cult leader

see that there is just a quarter turn to be made that leads us to a more glorious future. But everybody has to get on

future. But everybody has to get on board. It is your job to look inside

board. It is your job to look inside your mental dictionary of language and identify

500 to a,000. It's not that many words in the right order that is going to jailbreak people and reprogram them to come and join you

off the path. And it's very doable. And

it has been done again and again in big ways and in small ways. It's been done to convince an entire nation to continue fighting a war. It's been done to con to

convince racists to consider the possibility of allowing civil rights.

It's been done to inspire a nation to go to the moon. I mean, these things, we've seen them. We just don't really

seen them. We just don't really recognize them for what they are, which is packaging a thousand words in the right order and combination with

the right curation and delivering them such that they jailbreak people at scale. It's so doable. So, like the

scale. It's so doable. So, like the Napoleon situation where if you give the facts, you are going to go guard this place and these cannons are going to shoot at

you and every single person that has previously gone here has gotten shot.

And if you give those facts, probably not very many people are like, "Yes, I I want to be suicidal."

Um, but then suddenly you give it in slightly different order and people are lining up, you know, voluntarily joining. What other examples are there

joining. What other examples are there in situations that you've seen where people rephrased a set of facts and like not even facts but almost feelings and reasons for doing things

in order to get people to take irrational action.

Cicero Mhm.

Um Cicero's political career should have ended before it began. He

was a new man, didn't have a lot of money. Um he was uh he was not liked by

money. Um he was uh he was not liked by the patricians and by the most powerful men of his time. He had the gift of oratory. He was considered the second

oratory. He was considered the second best orator after this other senator called Hortensius who was like the man and Cicero was like second banana and

Cicero took on this case that seemed absolutely impossible. Not impossible

absolutely impossible. Not impossible because of the facts um but poss but impossible because of whom he needed to

convince. Cicero's job was to get a jury

convince. Cicero's job was to get a jury to find guilty the governor of Sicily who had abused his power blatantly and

engaged in corruption, theft, violence, or just a total thug. The reason that this would be very difficult is that the jury who would decide would be made up

of people who hated Cicero, loved the guy or were were friends with him, the the governor of Varys and uh had also been bribed.

So he had to get these people to find him guilty. Now everything is about

him guilty. Now everything is about incentives, right? So all the incentives

incentives, right? So all the incentives have gone in the other direction. What

can Cicero do or say to break those incentives?

What he did was he used his speeches to turn it into a trial of the jury.

Mhm.

He said, "This is not about trying this man. Everyone knows he's guilty.

man. Everyone knows he's guilty.

who's on trial is you and it's whether you can be bought and it's whether you will let innocents suffer so that you can protect your friends. That's what's

on trial. And he completely flipped the incentives for them. Now they're voting for themselves, right? Um so I think that's a really good example maybe from a long time ago, but things don't change that much. Humans haven't changed that

that much. Humans haven't changed that much. We have answers to a lot of our

much. We have answers to a lot of our questions if we're willing to look back more than like 10 minutes ago.

So you brought up this idea of if you are on the attack, you always want to focus the point of attack as small as you possibly can and instead of saying, you know, I'm attacking like Andreal, you want to say like I am attacking

Palmer Lucky and it's this one character that people can kind of get behind in a narrative that they can believe in. If

you are on the defense, then you want to, you know, if you're a journalist and you're getting attacked, you don't want to say, "Oh man, I'm getting attacked."

You want to be like, you are attacking journalism itself. And so suddenly you

journalism itself. And so suddenly you have this like army of people that are like, "I agree that journalism, you know, should be free and open and people should be able to share what they whatever they want to do share and do

research." And so suddenly it's like a

research." And so suddenly it's like a greater cause than yourself. How's Tell

me about the the difference between those two things and how they marry together. Yeah, it's like um it's like

together. Yeah, it's like um it's like the concept of pressure in physics which is when you want to apply pressure. So

when you're on offense, you pressure is force over surface area, right? P= F A.

So if you want to apply maximum pressure, let's say that the amount of force that you have to bring to bear is constant. Um you are going to decrease

constant. Um you are going to decrease the surface area. So, if I wanted to attack you, uh I I'll recap a little bit what what you already described here,

but I'm not going to attack like podcasters. I wouldn't even attack you

podcasters. I wouldn't even attack you the person cuz you've got friends, you have a good reputation. I would attack

one really specific thing that you have done that if that's true unravels so much else about you. So, for example,

let's say, right, Tai pretends to be a nice guy who cares about others, but I have discovered that last month he received a Bitcoin payment from the

Saudis.

And now, like, I don't have to say he's corrupt, he's a liar, he's not actually nice. I don't have to get people to

nice. I don't have to get people to believe all of those things. But if they believe that you got a Bitcoin payment from the Saudis, then they will ask themselves,

why is that? Is it a bribe? Can I trust what he's saying? Which of those interviews is actually fake? Is he lying when he says he wasn't a SP? Is he a liar? Um, does he have a political

liar? Um, does he have a political agenda? Uh, are his interviews fake? All

agenda? Uh, are his interviews fake? All

these things they're now asking themselves. Whereas if I had said that,

themselves. Whereas if I had said that, if I said, "Hey everybody, all his interviews are fake and he's a liar."

Wouldn't land. M okay. If you're on defense, you want to diffuse the pressure so that there's less on you. The the amount of force that they're applying, you don't get to change. But what you can do is

you can spread the surface area. And

that does a couple things. One is uh you diffuse it so not as much of it is about you and it's sort of like distracting.

But two is remember we said earlier what makes someone root for you is that you represent something they like something they want or something they see in

themselves. So in that moment if you

themselves. So in that moment if you morph yourself into the thing people like or the thing people are rooting for like if you break into your constituent

parts the reasons that people would root for you and remind people about that. Um

uh uh if I'm attacking you, you would say uh she is attacking young entrepreneurs who are trying to make a run at creating something new in the

media because she's on the side of the gatekeepers and she doesn't want us to succeed. If you can convince people of

succeed. If you can convince people of that, now you have other podcasters and other young entrepreneurs being on on your side, not necessarily because they

care about you and your Saudi Bitcoin Bitcoin payment, but because you've reminded them about the thing you represent that is now under threat that if you get hurt, all of them get hurt.

It's a little bit human shield. It's a

little bit, hey, if if they get me, they're going to get all of you, too.

So, you better fight for me.

but subtly.

Um, and so, and so that can be wildly effective.

It almost seems like uh the best example that I can think of where there's a specific thing that someone has done and thus you can believe all the terrible things that you've heard about them is like you went to Jeffrey Epstein's

island.

Thus, all the terrible things that I've ever heard about you align with that.

Like, if you would do this one thing, then you must have be willing to do all of those other horrible things.

And your although that list is now so long that it sort of lost its potency and like the optimal amount of being connected to Epstein is not zero.

You want to be two connections away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um

away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um

you were in the no but not directly connected.

Yeah. You want to be uh like who is it?

Was it Jim Simons? You want to be like he tried to get you and you said no.

That's like you have extreme moral character or lying on the ground. Uh I think um I think there's a quote from the Soviet Union maybe during political upheaval that was like we saw power just lying on

the ground and we picked it up or a lying on the ground just for free you know if you get invited and you don't go. So, I I don't know if that is the

go. So, I I don't know if that is the best example, but picture um I don't want to give people a road map to ruining somebody's reputation, but if you have to fight, picture a piece of cloth and it is very difficult to tear a

piece of cloth with your bare hands, but if there's a nick in it, then the whole thing can tear open, right? Like when

you see pro wrestlers that tear it apart.

Y So, uh you know, tip for anyone who ever needs to rip their shirt off on camera, that's make sure you have the nick. When you think about building an

nick. When you think about building an aura, I think building an aura is similar to you've done all these kind of steps that you talked about in this interview successfully over the course of many

months or maybe even multiple years and suddenly people will just default, you know, have this vision of who you are in their mind and they will like autosport you or auto not want to support you. How

do you actually build an aura for yourself?

I think that uh we do talk a little bit too much about aura and there's a concept that I would like to bring back uh that I would like to advocate for which is the Roman concept

of octtoas.

It is a combination of authority and aura and influence and presence. It's

more durable than just aura. Aura to me is connected to something eancent and current that is happening right now. You

know, aura today doesn't translate to aura tomorrow. It's it's sometimes tied

aura tomorrow. It's it's sometimes tied to an event, but it's pretty fleeting.

Whereas octoas is you becoming the authority on something, you know, domain or knowledge or something moral where people look to

you for something that is like enduring.

You also have a personal magnetism and presence, but that's not the real core of it. The core of it is what you stand

of it. The core of it is what you stand for and the delivery of it and your presence and your charisma. All of that

is the plating or the preparation. But

there has to be an iron core of what you stand for that is enduring and important. So, so I think um we should

important. So, so I think um we should reframe the quest for aura to a quest for octoitas.