How to Write Strikingly Well (Lee Child Interview)

Lee Child, the man behind the Jack Reacher series, a series that sold more than 200 million books, the bestselling

series of all time on Amazon in the UK.

Yeah, more than Harry Potter, which is crazy. And also a series where a new

crazy. And also a series where a new book is sold on average every 9 seconds.

So, how does he do it? How does he write it? How does he come up with the ideas?

it? How does he come up with the ideas?

Well, here be answers.

You know, where I want to start the interview is creating a sense of place.

Like obviously you're English, you were in England when you got fired and then you're like, "Hey, let's go base a story in America." Yeah.

in America." Yeah.

So, first of all, why'd you do that? But

also, how do you make that real and vivid?

I did it because for a bunch of reasons that all pushed in the same direction.

Uh, one was that, as you say, I'd just been fired and it was a kind of political thing whereby the TV industry in Britain was being altered externally

in order to give Rupert Murdoch a foothold for his satellite business. So

that uh I was just annoyed, you know, really just pissed off with uh with what had happened. So in a lot of ways, I

had happened. So in a lot of ways, I wanted to escape. I just I was done with it. I wanted to get out. And if I

it. I wanted to get out. And if I couldn't do that yet physically, at least I could do it in my head in terms of narrative.

And I had when I started out writing, and this is something that a lot of readers don't want to hear, but writing

is not just the muse, you know, you don't sit down compelled to just write.

It's a job. And especially because I'd been fired, it was a it was a serious thing. I had to make a living. And in

thing. I had to make a living. And in

order to approach it that way, you got to start thinking about it in a rather commercial and strategic way. And

British uh thriller and uh crime fiction I love, you know, I got nothing negative to say about it, but it is very tight and very internal and very

psychological, a little bit like the island itself. This is a small country,

island itself. This is a small country, very densely packed. And if you look at the great um crime fiction that I was reading out of Britain at the time, uh

Barbara Vine, who was that's a pen name for Ruth Randelle, and it was a certain kind of fiction she was doing very much in a couple of streets in North London,

you know, that was the world. You look

at Ian Rankin, another great British crime writer. That's literally like a

crime writer. That's literally like a couple of square miles in Edinburgh. It

was very internal in their heads, very small geography. And I thought

small geography. And I thought my heart wasn't in that. I wanted I wanted something that was a lot more

uh a lot more related to myth and legend from the past. The idea of the mysterious stranger, the noble loner who

shows up here and there. And for that you need a gigantic geography to make it plausible. The idea that a stranger can

plausible. The idea that a stranger can wander miles into a community that is effectively isolated and cut off and has mystery and intrigue going on

unbeknownst to the rest of the world.

That is not um plausible in Britain.

Everybody knows everybody else's business. Everybody lives cheap by gel.

business. Everybody lives cheap by gel.

You needed that frontier feel. So it

really had to be America uh from the narrative point of view and I had been a lot. I first went to the US more than 50

lot. I first went to the US more than 50 years ago now. Um and I eventually in 1974 I eventually immigrated in 1998 which is

24 years later. And part of the immigration procedure if you do it legally is to apply numerous forms to

fill out. One of them is you've got to

fill out. One of them is you've got to list every previous visit you've made to the US. So I guess so they can check

the US. So I guess so they can check with police departments here and there that you're not some kind of murderer or something. And so I had to go back

something. And so I had to go back through all my old passports. And in

those 24 years, I'd visited the US exactly 100 times. Whoa.

Because my wife is from there. And so

every trip we took, she's from where?

She's from New York. Oh,

okay. So I I felt I knew the country well enough to write about it with the advantage of doing it with an outsider's

eye, which I think is huge. I think that uh you run the risk of getting details wrong. You run the risk of sort of not

wrong. You run the risk of sort of not quite connecting with the culture, but there's an enormous advantage in you're seeing things fresh. You're seeing

things that Americans no longer see because they're so familiar. And as you go about creating a sense of place, what are the things that you're thinking about? I mean, I don't know, there's

about? I mean, I don't know, there's different uh instruments you can play.

You could play the instrument of sound.

You could play the instrument of sight.

You could play the instrument of light.

You could play the instrument of color, of the way the sun sets and rises in the morning. Whatever it is, how do you

morning. Whatever it is, how do you think about bringing a sense of place?

That's a life. Good question. And for

me, I I would say mostly it's temperature. Uh, you know, I never

temperature. Uh, you know, I never heat versus cool temperature.

Yeah. hard versus soft, hot versus cold, things like that. I don't plan I never have a, you know, I don't I'm not one of these guys that has a list of the ne next eight plots, you know, with a

little index card saying, you know, set set this one in Maine or something. I

don't do that. What I do, and this sounds terribly pretentious, but if you were a composer writing music, you start with a concept with a key that you want.

uh you know G major is a cheerful upbeat key. Uh E flat minor is is the opposite

key. Uh E flat minor is is the opposite you know down and rather melancholy key.

So what I do as a writer is I I have a just a vague idea. I want this to be hard and cold or I want this to be hot.

And then you pick a location that you have been familiar with. I never do research specifically for that book. It

it always draws on impressions formed over the years from previous visits to places. Uh, you know, do you want it to

places. Uh, you know, do you want it to be the west of Texas where it is baking hot and arid? Do you want it to be on the Atlantic coast of Maine in April

where it's gray and cold and and and misty? So, that's how I start with the

misty? So, that's how I start with the sense of place and then it's just constructing it around that. In a way, the place and the temperature kind of dictates the story in a way.

Almost as if they're like the driving factors.

Yeah. Or it gives you a stage on which certain action is inevitable and certain is implausible.

Like almost sets the physics of the story.

I think it does. Yeah. You know, is it is it mostly an indoor story? Is it an outdoor story with with wandering? Is it

uh just the flavor of it? I'm absolutely

not a planner and I never have a preconception really of what why do you say that with such emphasis?

Because a lot of people assume that a book needs planning.

They assume that you write out an outline or at least a hit list of of plot points, some kind of a synopsis or outline or plan. And I've never ever

done that. I I I I just

done that. I I I I just cuz for me writing per se making it with

words is not really the issue for me.

It's the story that I want. And if I were to plan a story, and I've got friends who do huge outlines, you know, 300page outlines. Even if I did a

300page outlines. Even if I did a two-page outline with, you know, two lines per proposed chapter, then I've told myself the story, and I'm bored

with it at that point. I want the next story. So, I can't afford to tell myself

story. So, I can't afford to tell myself the story ahead of time. I have to just improvise it as I go along. So, it's

about starting somewhere which is defined by location and then see what happens. It's it really is that simple.

Yeah. In your life, who are the writers who you've made a point to read everything they've written?

Oh, lots and lots of them. I mean uh there was a British Scottish actually thriller writer called Alistair Mlan who was huge when I was a kid and and really appealed to me. I read everything of his.

What' you take from him?

I took from him actually something I've used two things I took from him actually. Number one was

actually. Number one was he had a a real skill of having a hero that was so good that he was almost the cartoon character. He was almost falling

cartoon character. He was almost falling off the edge of being ludicrous and yet never did. He just kept in the right

never did. He just kept in the right side of plausibility. And I learned that. The other thing I learned was a

that. The other thing I learned was a completely negative thing that he got drunk and lazy and bored after about eight books and fell off a cliff in

terms of quality. So I learned to avoid that if you can. John D. McDonald who

was uh was a Florida writer did 21 books in the Travis McGee series which is really one of the most magnificent series and pulls up a trick that I I

cannot explain. There was uh 21 books as

cannot explain. There was uh 21 books as I said and only one of them only one of them has anything happen on page one and the other 20 nothing happens on page one

nothing really happens on page two but you cannot put them down now explain that to me I can't what happens in the first few pages just two guys hanging out chatting or

whatever you know and uh somehow it's too it's so compelling one of them they're sitting in a boat page one they're sitting at night fishing in a boat on a canal in in South

Florida. You know, they're chatting for

Florida. You know, they're chatting for half a page and then all of a sudden somebody throws a body off the bridge and it lands in their boat. That's the

only story where something happens on page one. And yet all of them are

page one. And yet all of them are utterly addictive. You literally cannot

utterly addictive. You literally cannot put him down. How do you think your career, your writing unfolded differently by virtue of having one character who you brought in over and

over again versus, hey, I'm going to do this story with all these characters, this story with all those characters?

Yeah, it's a great question and again, um, I think an awful lot of it depends on what turns you on as a reader.

Um, I think you can't get away from that. I think that if if you find a guy

that. I think that if if you find a guy who has enjoyed reading a certain genre or a certain style within a genre, that

is what they've got to write really. Um,

and again, from the audience's point of view, I everything I do, I try to remember how I felt as a reader, what

really turned me on as a reader, how did I feel as a reader? And with a a series with a strong recurring character,

there's a kind of preapproval amongst the readers.

If they've tried one and liked it, then they're very happy that the same guy comes back in the second book. And then

they they understand it's turning into a series where he's going to keep on coming back. So every year they get the

coming back. So every year they get the new book and it is pre-approved in their mind. They know they're going to like

mind. They know they're going to like it. They know they want to read it.

it. They know they want to read it.

Certainly they want a different plot.

They want a different context. All that

kind of thing, but they really want the familiarity and the comfort of their old friend coming to visit for a couple of days, hanging out with the guy for a couple of days. They'd love that. So to

me, series were always super appealing as a reader. So naturally, I wanted to write a series. And I think it works really well. Uh that, you know, I've got

really well. Uh that, you know, I've got a lot of other writers. I love Stephen King for instance. Now, Stephen, he's a great writer, a terrific guy, great

writer. I mean, literally America's

writer. I mean, literally America's greatest living novelist, I think, at this point. I think so. But Stephen King

this point. I think so. But Stephen King comes out with a new book. You're never

quite sure what it's going to be.

Is it this? Is it that? Is it horror? Is

it supernatural? Is it some other thing?

You don't know. You buy it because you love Stephen King. You don't buy it because you know you're going to love the story because the story could be anything at that point. Obviously, you

famously start your books on September 1st. And so, what is how do you sort of

1st. And so, what is how do you sort of structure the year? How do you structure the days in terms of where that imagination comes into play? Where the

actual work of writing comes into play and how those things come together? It's

uh I guess yeah I do I I start on a on a regular day which is kind of necessary I think because if you're going to publish a book a year clearly you got to write a

book a year and you have got to have a certain discipline and structure to you to do that. So it's totally convenient to pick start first of September deliver

sometime in March or April that is the way to do it. And um funny what you say though about imagination because I you know I do a book let's say I'm finishing

it in March or April done fantastic happy with it and then I suffer I kind of uh self-doubt well not really it's

not that I'm sitting there racked with doubt but I just it kind of fades away.

I've done that book. I know it's some months before I have to start the next one. And kind of July, August, beginning

one. And kind of July, August, beginning of August, I'm thinking, "Oh, got to start in six weeks or whatever." And I'm just bereft. I no ideas. I thought I

just bereft. I no ideas. I thought I every year I think this is it. I'm

washed up now. It was the previous 20 years was just luck, you know? I've got

no got nothing to do, nothing to say.

I've got no idea. And I feel a little despondent about it. And then sure as eggs are eggs towards the end of August I'm thinking well you know I could yeah

this might be cool or and then toward again a few days later I have a first line suddenly pops into my head. So by

September the 1st I'm up and running again. But the imagination

again. But the imagination somehow is biddable. It you can quiet it down and you can crank it up depending on when you need to.

Before we started recording you were like yeah I don't walk much. don't work

out, love to smoke cigarettes and all that. And how do you think that

that. And how do you think that what you've produced is downstream of how you've lived your life? Cuz that is unique. Like it's this funny combination

unique. Like it's this funny combination of when you said that I was reminded very dear friend. He's just like I'm just the laziest guy. And he's super creative. He just kind of like sits on

creative. He just kind of like sits on the couch. He sort of just like mopes

the couch. He sort of just like mopes around a little bit. But then there's that contrasted with you had been to the United States a hundred times in 24 years

which feels like the antithesis of that.

Yeah. I mean I travel for fun. I travel

for I mean I guess I I do not do anything that could conventionally be labeled virtuous, you know, like take an

exercise. I just don't. I mean, I grew

exercise. I just don't. I mean, I grew up in a dull and very boring, repressive family environment where there seemed to

be an unspoken target of just living as long as you possibly could, you know, taking care of yourself so that you live to a grand old

age. And I remember associating that

age. And I remember associating that with the the boringness of it. And I

remember literally at the age of eight, literally at the age of eight, I I thought to myself, I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to do whatever the

that. I'm just going to do whatever the hell I want. And I don't care what the result will be. My my target is to have more fun in 60 years than the rest of

them would have in 100. So I just I've always done that. I live recklessly. I

do whatever I want to do. uh I pay no attention to consequence or health or anything like that and it's an antidote

I think to to the repression and that uptight kind of upbringing that I had.

uh you know absolutely in my family smoking was regarded as just awful you know terrible thing to do and uh I don't think you know my parents were kind of

before the era of exercise I mean nobody in that generation nobody thought taking exercise but you did naturally I suppose because maybe you didn't have a car so you had

to walk to work or whatever um but yeah anything worthy anything virtuous anything like that I turn turn my face against. I didn't want to participate in

against. I didn't want to participate in that kind of scheme. I just wanted to live for pleasure. And um I was also

very aware that I was a very lucky generation.

My micro generation.

My birth year, maybe a couple years before, maybe a couple of years afterward, was probably the luckiest generation in all of human history. Uh especially

being born in Britain, we didn't even have Vietnam. Yeah. We were born to a

have Vietnam. Yeah. We were born to a stable post-war European democracy with national health service that worked back then with a welfare state that worked

back then. We had free education

back then. We had free education completely. All the major dread diseases

completely. All the major dread diseases were conquered.

We never had to go to war. We never had a bomb dropped on our house. We never

had the secret police knocking on the door at 4 in the morning. All those

horrors that had existed very recently no longer applied to us. And the

creativity that you saw exploding in Britain in the 60s for instance, you know, all those great bands and and the great artists and photographers and

fashion design, all that stuff was the because that was the first free generation. It wasn't that they suddenly

generation. It wasn't that they suddenly developed all that talent. All that

talent had been around in every generation except it had been disallowed. They had to go work in the

disallowed. They had to go work in the factory. They had to go to war. They had

factory. They had to go to war. They had

to do whatever.

And now the conditions were right.

The conditions were right. We didn't

have to do that stuff. So it did explode.

You know what the word that came to mind was just kind of unapologetic because there's the unapologetic in terms of yeah, you're supposed to do this, you're supposed to do that. I

don't really do the things that I'm supposed to do. But then the other thing is just the unapologetic decision to write in a commercial fashion to say, "Hey, this is my job." Like a

lot of writers are like, "Oh, don't do that." And it's funny, you wouldn't walk

that." And it's funny, you wouldn't walk into a hedge fund or an investment firm and say, "Hey, don't try to make as much money as you can." But somehow you get into a library or writer's room and it's

like, "Oh, don't don't don't say that."

In a way, it was because I started out in the theater. That that was my first enthusiasm, my first love.

This before TV.

Yeah. theater before TV. And I remember that say 197172 um that kind of time in theater there

was some great stuff but there was also some ridiculous crap and the a lot of the ridiculous crap was kind of boasted about and people would say you know

people would put on terrible shows and get zero audience and and they would be kind of proud of it. Oh, you know, people don't understand our art and all

that kind of thing. But I saw it as as a zen proposition. If you put on a show and nobody comes to see it, how do you actually put on a show? I'm not

saying nakedly commercial transaction, but the transactional aspect of it was vital. It was integral. You put on a

vital. It was integral. You put on a show, somebody has to watch it before it exists. If you write a book and nobody

exists. If you write a book and nobody reads it, have you written a book? It

was you've got to include the audience in the calculation. So that I wasn't it wasn't like a sort of naked meatricious thing where I I was trying to make a

living. Although I was trying to make a

living. Although I was trying to make a living, but that wasn't forefront in my mind. It was that if I'm doing

mind. It was that if I'm doing something, I want people to enjoy it.

And if you want people to enjoy it, you may as well have the maximum number of people enjoy it.

But of course there's a technicality about books and readership is that the readership is absolutely not monolithic.

It is far more like the rings of Saturn that even my books you know I write any any commercial writer's books are

consumed at the center of that universe by very skilled habitual readers. And

I've got all kinds of highgrade highlevel fans.

Um, but in order to sell a lot of books, you've got to push the boundary outward to the outer rings of Saturn where the

audience are people that read one book a year, possibly two books a year. And

you've got to satisfy the habitual, skillful, literate readers in the center at the same time as satisfying the people on the outskirts that are not

habitual readers. And so that is a skill

habitual readers. And so that is a skill in itself to make a a multi-level proposition and how does that play out like what is a how do you actually think about

structurally doing that? I think

structurally what you got to do is you've got to have a style that is both palatable and somewhat enjoyable to the

habitual readers in the center but that is also useful to the people on the outside and that's inevitably that style needs to be therefore propulsive. I I do

a lot of it instinctively, but I spend a lot of time uh concentrating on rhythm, the rhythm of a sentence because a book is however many thousand sentences in a

row and you got to make it so that each sentence has a rhythm and that rhythm must always be tripping forward, forward, forward. So this rhythm is less

forward, forward. So this rhythm is less artistic and much more about that word that you came back to propulsion like the rhythm of movement and progress and pace and momentum.

It's about propulsion. It's as if it's as if I'm creating a a style that the experienced reader in the center appreciates as a style. You know, call

it whatever you want. Faux naive or this or that. They'll find a word for it. But

or that. They'll find a word for it. But

the people on the outskirts that the non-habitual readers, it's like I have my hand gently on their back just pushing them through. They don't notice.

They they're not aware of it, but I am just easing them through the process.

And you know, one of the most heartfelt compliments that you get, I've had dozens, hundreds of people say to me,

"Oh, I loved your book. I finished it."

It is such an achievement for some, you know, not habitual readers, some unfamiliar, unaccustomed readers to finish a book. It's it's a sense of

achievement, self-esteem, and so on. And

you do that by helping them finish the book. You push them gradually through.

book. You push them gradually through.

They don't notice, but you're driving them through it. And you do that by propulsion, and you do the propulsion by sentence structure, so that the beat is always tipping forward. forward forward.

It's like a great pop song. If you look at a great pop song back in the days before uh before you know all this electronic stuff came along, the rhythm will speed

up through the song very very very subtly. Look at a Beatles song

subtly. Look at a Beatles song especially live. You know, Ringo will be

especially live. You know, Ringo will be driving that driving that tempo and it always ends up a little faster than it begins. Nobody notices but it's there.

begins. Nobody notices but it's there.

And that's what you got to do on the page. You've got to you got to make it

page. You've got to you got to make it so that it's a little bit like a like a carnival ride, you know, where you it's they're slipping down this polish tube,

you know, and there's no getting out of it. Once they're in it, they can't get

it. Once they're in it, they can't get out.

And now tell me more about that sense of propulsion because there you're talking about sentences, but then there's the sense of propulsion of opening a question at the beginning, keeping that question open, answering at the end.

There's the sense of propulsion that comes at the end of a chapter of, hey, we're going to have a cliffhanger.

television does this and in the next episode you're going to learn something like that.

Yeah. Well, that's and that's really where I got it from. I did 40,000 hours of of television of every kind and it kind of bakes it into your DNA.

Ending a chapter to me is never thought about. It is always utterly sort of

about. It is always utterly sort of instinctively obvious.

When you say that, do you mean that the book begins to reveal itself that hey, this is where it should be or is it something else?

Yeah, exactly. you and even the end of a book. I remember one of my books the

book. I remember one of my books the hard way I think it was it was that book where I remember finishing a chapter very late on and thinking great you know I'm almost done I've just got to kind of

do I don't know maybe a chapter and a half to wrap it up and then I suddenly realized no this is the end of the book this is done now

um because you just know it's all about asking the question um and uh TV had a had uh there was a situation in

1980 uh that changed completely by 1990. By

1990 people had something that they did not have in 1980 and it utterly changed the business. And you see now you are

the business. And you see now you are thinking why what is he talking about?

What what did they not have in 1980 that they did have in 1990? I've implied no I've implied a question there and you now want the answer.

All right.

Uh and the answer is remote control.

Ah in 1980 people actually physically had to get up off the sofa and change the channel. In 1990 they could do it with

channel. In 1990 they could do it with the push of a button and that utterly changed the business. And because you could rely on a certain amount of laziness in 1980, you could rely that if they finish one program, they're going

to stick around through the commercial break for the next one. Uh by 1990, absolutely all bets were off. They could

jump around at the pre press of a finger. And that utterly changed it. And

finger. And that utterly changed it. And

so how did we react to that? We reacted

to it by something that has largely disappeared now, but you still see, for instance, in baseball or certain sports where, you know, in baseball, you get to the sort of fourth inning and it's pretty clear maybe which way the game's

going and so on. And so they usually have a trivia question um that they'll tell you the answer at the end of the break when they return to

the game. And it's incredibly powerful

the game. And it's incredibly powerful that humans are hardwired to want to know the answer. Even if they're not interested in the subject, you know, if

it's a movie show or something, you might say, "Who was the first choice for Dirty Harry in terms of casting? We'll

tell you after the break." And people are like, "Whoa, who was the first choice? Wasn't Clint Eastwood the first

choice? Wasn't Clint Eastwood the first choice?" And they want to know. Even if

choice?" And they want to know. Even if

they do know, they want to stick around for the gratification of being proved right.

That's why people have jeopardy.

Yeah. And you know, the answer to who was first choice, believe it or not, for Dirty Harry was Frank Soninatra.

He he turned down the pot. So, we

learned that humans are hardwired to want the answer to a question. And I

think actually that is the easiest part of of constructing a novel.

Absolutely. The easiest part. you imply

a question, doesn't matter what it is, doesn't matter how important it is, people will stick around to find out the answer. And so that really plotting in

answer. And so that really plotting in that sense is way overestimated in terms of difficulty. Plotting is really pretty

of difficulty. Plotting is really pretty easy.

And now as a writer, do you feel like you're going on an adventure yourself?

Kind of like Oh, yeah.

Fingers are following the story or something.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean absolutely. I again I try and replicate what I want is this feeling that I have as a reader and you know this when you when you got a really

great book on the go. Yeah, you're

really angry if you have to put it down and you just cannot wait to get back to it. You you you know, let's say you got

it. You you you know, let's say you got to do a chore, an errand or something or go to work and then you get back and you pick up the book and you're like, "Ah, what's going to happen next?"

I need that feeling as a writer. is

incredibly strong as a reader. I

remember one Christmas day I was uh our daughter was working um in a cinema and she was doing the day shift on Christmas day and therefore our Christmas was

going to start when she finished work and got back which was maybe I don't know 6:00 or something. So I was reading a book uh that afternoon. It was a great book, but I was just loving it. And I

was thinking I was hoping that there would be a big snowstorm and she couldn't get there or something like that. I was hoping that she wouldn't

that. I was hoping that she wouldn't arrive so that I could keep on reading the book. And that is that's the power

the book. And that is that's the power of story. And I I want to feel that

of story. And I I want to feel that power when I'm writing it as well as reading it.

Well, the you were talking about needing to know the answer to the question, kind of being pulled along.

The other word that came to mind for me was just the feeling of being absorbed.

Absorbed in another world, absorbed in a pattern of language, absorbed in characters and scenes.

Absolutely immersed, I call it. And that

is such a subtle thing. I mean, how do you do it? Nobody knows.

Nobody does. It absolutely happens or it doesn't happen. You know, that's one of

doesn't happen. You know, that's one of the strange things. There's all kinds of cliches, you know, or jokes about about how to write a book. You know, people say a thriller just it needs just two

things. Unfortunately, nobody knows what

things. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are.

And that's kind of true.

I was so excited for you to tell me what they were exactly. You know, it's a mystery. Some

exactly. You know, it's a mystery. Some

Sometimes you it grabs you and sometimes it doesn't. Is that individual to the

it doesn't. Is that individual to the reader? Is it general? Can you trust it

reader? Is it general? Can you trust it for a large population as opposed to individual readers? I don't know. But I

individual readers? I don't know. But I

I think certain books appeal to different people in different ways. But

yeah, either you are immediately sucked into the world and I think probably the way to do that is not try too hard. I

think that is absolutely true of practically every aspect of writing.

Don't try too hard. There's a great great quote uh by David Mamemoth, screenwriter. He was talking about

screenwriter. He was talking about actors in this particular quote, but really it can be about book characters or anything. And he said essentially an

or anything. And he said essentially an actor steps onto the stage or steps onto the screen and he says, "Hey, I'm the

main character." And the audience says,

main character." And the audience says, "Are we going to like you?" And the worst possible answer is to say, "Yes,

you are. And I'll tell you why." That's

you are. And I'll tell you why." That's

the worst possible answer. The best

possible answer. Are we gonna like you?

I don't know and I don't care.

That is the that kind of insucence is the way to do it. He was talking about that generation of actors that had come out of the Korean War. People like

Jean Hackman and Lee Marvin and people like that. They had a certain kind of

like that. They had a certain kind of self-confidence. They were not needy.

self-confidence. They were not needy.

They were just there. Take me or leave me. they weren't trying too hard. And

me. they weren't trying too hard. And

that in a strange roundabout way, the less you worry about are they going to like you, the more they do like you.

So, help me reconcile a few things. So,

on one hand, what I'm hearing is this sort of don't try too hard. And then on the other side, it's a real sense of discipline of treating your writing like

a job, showing up every day. Help me

work that out.

Well, it is. I mean it is but writing is is a strange thing in that you have got to believe two things 100%. Both of

them. It's not believing one 50% the other 50%. You believe them both 100%.

other 50%. You believe them both 100%.

Which is mathematically impossible but you've got to do it. You've got to believe it's artistic. It's creative. It

is noble. It's part of a a great tradition that stretches back a few centuries now writing novels. You've

also got to believe it is a job that your family's income depends on. Uh that

you you have responsibilities to publishers and retailers. Uh you got to believe both things 100%.

And so you do need structure. You do

need discipline. Ultimately you have got you owe it to the reader. And that is what has been the driving force for me.

Initially I I'd lost my job. I was

broke. I was out of work and initially the the implied contract was purely financial. Could I keep a roof over my

financial. Could I keep a roof over my head? Could I pay the bills? And then

head? Could I pay the bills? And then

when that turned out to be yeah, you know, happily that happened. Then it

became an emotional contract with the reader. The reader has loved these

reader. The reader has loved these books. The reader has bought these

books. The reader has bought these books, enthused about them, talked about them, enjoyed them. So my my obligation from that point on was never to let them

down. And part of that, of course, is

down. And part of that, of course, is actually showing up with the product.

Because if a reader, not just me of course, but hundreds of series writers publish a new installment every year, if you miss one, the reader is really disappointed about that. Okay, so we're

talking about how do you get your writing done? And if you're thinking

writing done? And if you're thinking about work and how you can be more productive there, well, I recommend a tool called Base Camp. Basecamp is a project management tool and it's different from the other ones which are

loud and noisy and cluttered. They have

feature bloat. Basec camp says, "No, no, no, no. We're going to keep things

no, no. We're going to keep things simple so that you can focus on what actually matters which is just getting the work done." You know, now for us, Base Camp is a place where we can track what we're doing with how I write, when

episodes are being recorded, where we're recording them, the publishing day, all those sorts of things in one place for our entire team to look at. And I had the founder of Base Camp, Jason Freed.

He came on the show and I noticed that he really cares about writing. He cares

about manifestos. He cares about great copy. He cares about telling a great

copy. He cares about telling a great story. And him and his co-founder,

story. And him and his co-founder, they've written five books. And I can tell you that they bring the same care and attention to detail to their books as they do their software. So if you're

thinking about work and you're asking, hey, how can I be more productive? How

can I make my team more cohesive? Well,

then I recommend Base Camp. All right,

back to the episode.

And tell me about what goes into making a main character because you were talking about likability and is that important in a main character? When is it good? Hey, should

character? When is it good? Hey, should

we like the main character? Should we

hate the main character? Should we think they're funny?

I don't think that you can have a character that you hate.

Uh a main character that you hate or a character.

Well, obviously a character, you know, a despicable bad guy or a henchman or something like that, you can absolutely hate them. But in terms of the main

hate them. But in terms of the main character or the the implied main character, Hannibal Lectar, for instance, would be as close as you could

get to a character that you should hate, but there is something compelling about them. Uh, you can have characters that

them. Uh, you can have characters that you ought to hate, but you kind of don't, which Breaking Bad.

Yeah. All that noir style, there's something about them that makes them likable, even though you shouldn't. Uh

you absolutely can't ha have a character designed to be hated. Uh you absolutely equally cannot have a character that's designed to be liked because the more

you design it the worse it gets. You've

just got to have an honest authentic portrayal and then you got to hope for the best. You know when I start I did

the best. You know when I start I did the first reacher book I thought and there's a clue in what I'm going to say.

I thought I'm happy with this. I love

this. you know, this is 100% what I wanted it to be. Obviously, otherwise I would have done it differently. This was

exactly what I wanted. But I thought, ah, nobody else is going to like this.

The guy is a, you know, filthy, dirty barbarian. He, you know, he he's shoots

barbarian. He, you know, he he's shoots people in the back. He lies, he cheats, he steals, he he uh never changes his clothes. Nobody's going to like this

clothes. Nobody's going to like this guy. And then I thought, well, maybe

guy. And then I thought, well, maybe some men will like him, but women won't or whatever. Uh, but the clue is I liked

or whatever. Uh, but the clue is I liked him. Now, I am obviously a unique

him. Now, I am obviously a unique individual just like you are, just like everybody else is, but we're not that unique. We all share quite a lot of

unique. We all share quite a lot of culture together. And so, if I like him,

culture together. And so, if I like him, the chances are that many, many other people will like him, too. The only

unknown at that point is how many exactly? You know, is it going to be

exactly? You know, is it going to be thousands? Is it going to be hundreds of

thousands? Is it going to be hundreds of thousands? Is it going to be millions?

thousands? Is it going to be millions?

You don't know that yet, but if you like it, a substantial uh proportion of other people will like it, too.

What matters? Let's bring together two themes. We've been talking about rhythm

themes. We've been talking about rhythm propulsion, and uh I think there we've been talking about a kind of truth, right? You're saying if you don't if you

right? You're saying if you don't if you plan it, it's not going to kind of feel real. There's something about the

real. There's something about the following roller coaster that actually makes it feel real. So bringing together the propulsion, the truth, what matters in dialogue as you're writing dialogue,

bringing that to life.

Yeah. I mean dialogue is the ultimate uh kind of illusion. In fact, I I once I think won a competition prize or you know won some literary prize. I think it

was from it was years ago. I think it was the Fort Worth Evening Telegraph or something in Texas. I won the prize for natural dialogue

and the honestly written dialogue in a book there is nothing less natural than that uh it's really instructive to actually seriously really listen to how

people speak.

Yeah.

In a real dialogue exchange where people are talking you know go on the train and eavesdrop the seat next to you or whatever. Listen

to how people really talk. It is

incoherent. It is stop start. It was

it's absolutely full of placeholders, you know, um all this kind of stuff.

It's people jump from one subject to another. There are long gaps. It's

another. There are long gaps. It's

utterly utterly unlike anything you will ever see written down. Uh in a book, it is utterly unnatural that people talk in a structured way and actually exchange

information AB like that is absolutely never happens in real life. except you

can do it in a way that makes people think it's utterly natural.

One of the greatest illusions in entertainment. Again, rhythm is

entertainment. Again, rhythm is important because dialogue when when you listen to people talk, they put emphasis on words that vary throughout the

sentence. And how do you do that on the

sentence. And how do you do that on the page? In extremist, you can use italics,

page? In extremist, you can use italics, I suppose, for the uh emphasized word. I

prefer not to because otherwise you've got italics peppered over the entire page and random spots. You don't really want to do that, but you've got to construct the rhythm in such a way that

the emphasis is thrown onto that word as opposed to any other words so that you go duh duh duh somehow the rhythm lands you on the important word. And that is I

think uh it's partly an innate skill. It

comes from reading a lot. It comes from listening a lot and it comes from listening a lot. How do you do that?

Like listen to people chat.

Listen listen listen to real people talk. Listen to movies. Listen to TV. I

talk. Listen to movies. Listen to TV. I

mean there's a lot of great dialogue on TV. There's a lot of great dialogue in

TV. There's a lot of great dialogue in the movies. Just just immerse yourself

the movies. Just just immerse yourself in it. Listen listen. And you you pick

in it. Listen listen. And you you pick it up how to do it.

Man, I was on the train last night coming back from Gatwick and there was a woman sitting next to me, an Indian woman. She was with her husband and

woman. She was with her husband and something had happened where she had lost a bunch of money and she was in a financial struggle and the way that she kept on emphasizing the word money. I

need my money. I lost my money. And just

the tension of it, it was just this this you talk about listening like there's a story there, you know.

Absolutely. And you know, you've laid it out very well there that you use a little bit of repetition. I

need my money. I have lost my money.

That creates it to a large extent. It

puts it the repeated words kind of dissolve in the air and you got need money, lost money. The emphasis

automatically ends up on those words.

Yeah. You know, it's funny now that you're saying it back to me. In moments

of anger, there's a great simplicity in language. I need my money. I lost my

language. I need my money. I lost my money. There's no room for the high

money. There's no room for the high flutin whatever. It's you are in a

flutin whatever. It's you are in a primal state.

You are. And you also tend to use that that emphatic repetition um of certain words that almost then relates it to song in a way. You know,

it's like lines in in in the chorus of a song, which again, you know, let's let's venture back into prehistory. What was

the first ever art form had to be singing. You know we already had

singing. You know we already had expressive voices because of the development of syntactical language in our evolution. So obviously the first

our evolution. So obviously the first music was sung and singing depends on rhythm and and repetition to a large

extent. So we we revert to it when we

extent. So we we revert to it when we are in a in an excess of emotion. That's

a great story. I can absolutely picture that woman. I can hear what she's saying

that woman. I can hear what she's saying and I I know how to I would know how to write it.

Beginnings, endings, what matters as you're writing those?

You know, one of the beginnings and endings. Let's talk about beginnings and

endings. Let's talk about beginnings and endings. Uh first of all, for you as a

endings. Uh first of all, for you as a writer, when should you begin? When

should you end? And um I find it very difficult to I get invited to let's say a college somewhere or even a high school um to talk about writing and

there's all these people keen on being writers and really the only valid message to them is don't don't do it now. Um, wait.

now. Um, wait.

Too young.

Too young. Read for 20 years and then do it because there's a lot of uh enthusiasm, a lot of talent amongst young people, but there's no content

yet. They haven't lived. They haven't

yet. They haven't lived. They haven't

seen things. They don't know much. You

need to know when to start and you need to know when to finish your career as well before you get worn out and boring.

That that's the macro sense in terms of the book. Where do you start and where

the book. Where do you start and where do you finish? You you don't start when the earth cooled. You know, that is what a lot of a lot of beginning writers get

wrong. You know, they start they they

wrong. You know, they start they they give you the backstory. You know, they you've got let's say you have a great line of dialogue. Your character has a

great line of dialogue. They feel they need to tell us about where you grew up, where you went to school, who your parents were, what formed you, all that kind of stuff. Do not start where when

the earth cooled. Start with the the the action right now. Um there's a Latin phrase in media res meaning in the middle of things. Start in the middle of

things. Don't give all the explanation

things. Don't give all the explanation yet. Just start with something

yet. Just start with something intriguing and see where it goes.

Um that then where do you end it? You

end it when the story's over. How do you know when the story's over? You just got to judge that on a gut level instinctively.

One thing that does not work, I've tried this, you know, I've done a long series and so I've had room to uh experiment a little bit. Um, we had a

thing in television. See, television uh developed over the years a tremendous amount. The television used to be what

amount. The television used to be what you would call a series activity that you would concentrate on TV before you did whatever was next in your day. You

know, you would and your grandma still does it. She sits and watches her show,

does it. She sits and watches her show, right?

But most people don't do that. It

developed into a parallel activity in as much as now you watch the show while you're on the phone to your mother while you're cooking dinner.

Yeah.

In other words, and we went through we had to cope with that. And so what we would do, we had this sort of shorthand way of saying it. We we would tell you

that we're gonna tell you, then we would tell you, then we would tell you that we told you that sort of in order to help people who who were very distracted. And

I wondered is was I doing that a little bit too much in the books? And so I thought I'm going to try an experiment where I don't explain everything. I will

give the information. The information

will be there hiding in plain sight, but I will not pull it together and make the conclusion. And I'll leave that up to

conclusion. And I'll leave that up to the reader. Um that happened in in in

the reader. Um that happened in in in one book but very explicitly in another earlier book there was quite a fascinating um minor character quite a

brave woman whose husband was in trouble and she was brave about it and so on and I left it completely unstated what happened to her thinking that this

character would live on in the reader's mind and the reader would would decide for themselves what had happened to her.

In both cases, readers hated it. They

wanted all the loose ends tied up and they wanted situations explained so that you you can't leave it uh

too too unexplained. The readers want your version rather than it's not like a writing prompt. If you were at college

writing prompt. If you were at college doing an MFA, the professor probably gives you a writing prompt and then you tell the story. Readers don't like that.

Readers wanted you to do the work and tell them the story.

You were talking about writing being a second half of your life kind of thing, right? The first half is about more

right? The first half is about more index towards collecting, reading, and picking up life experiences and then the writing comes a little bit later.

How do you think that varies across genres? Cuz like intuitively I'd be

genres? Cuz like intuitively I'd be like, "Hey, you're, you know, you're making up stories. Why do you need to know stuff?" But no, no, no. Clearly I'm

know stuff?" But no, no, no. Clearly I'm

missing something in that in that assumption.

Yeah. I think what you need to and nothing is ever uh all one thing or all the other thing. Sure. I mean I know that in my genre virtually everybody

that's successful is doing it as a second phase career.

Having done something prior that often does require an audience. Either they're

a journalist uh or they're a lawyer with a jury in mind or something like that.

and then they go on to be a writer.

There have been a couple of people that have started fresh in their in their 20s, early or mid20s that have made a success, but it's very much the minority.

Um, and even though you might be inventing an entirely new genre because an old guy like me, there's all kinds of stuff, you know, vampire fiction, this,

that, the other that I have just no concept of what it's about. But it's

about something and it's about structure in in a sense. And so what you do have to have is enough reading I think that you have internalized the idea that

there must be a structure and what structure is. Uh people are very

structure is. Uh people are very skeptical when I say I never make a plan. I never make an outline. Every

plan. I never make an outline. Every

single line is improvised on the spot and that is absolutely true. But it is not quite as naked as it sounds because

I've read tens of thousands of books. So

in fact, I have an enormous internal database of virtually every available plot, virtually every type of character, virtually every type of cliffhanger or

structure or whatever. I've got it in there somewhere. So actually, I have a

there somewhere. So actually, I have a monster plan and outline. Um,

yeah, I've been going down the rabbit hole of just all sorts of different creatives and what you realize is that the bank of how much they've consumed is just so much greater than people would

realize. Martin Scorsese used to watch a

realize. Martin Scorsese used to watch a movie every single night. You look at someone like Ralph Lauren, people say, "Hey, you know what was it like talking to him in the early days? He just knew every single thing about the different

kinds of ties." talking to a musician.

Musician um was saying, "Hey, in the way that you can remember how things look, I can remember how things sound. So, I can tell you how Oman sounds versus how

Israel sounds versus how China sounds."

And you just realize that when you're talking to great creatives, it is this process of constant consumption. But

this even more this very naturally created filing bank that somehow you're pulling from without even realizing in the process of creation.

That is very well put and very well diagnosed. And that is exactly what

diagnosed. And that is exactly what happens that you I mean for instance I remember that the first Jackarich movie with with Tom Cruz directed by Chris

McQuary. Uh, McQuary, I mean, man, that

McQuary. Uh, McQuary, I mean, man, that movie crews work hard. You know, it's 12, 14hour day, maybe up at 5:00 in the morning or whatever, work all day.

Incredible. And then what would happen?

McQuary invites everybody to his suite and they watch a movie because it's not that it's like a duty to top up their knowledge. It is their

enthusiasm. But they end up they work

enthusiasm. But they end up they work all day making a movie then they watch a movie and that internal database gets bigger and bigger and bigger more and

more passionately analyzed and you're absolutely right whoever it is interior designer they know this stuff because it's their life and

writers are like that it's we we're total consumers actually we're not we're not predominantly a writer we're predominantly a reader uh you know, you

write one book a year, you you read hundreds and so you're much more of a reader than a writer. So your internal

supply of reference and um stimulation is um by the time you get to halfway through your life enormous by that point.

Violence, making it feel real, the purpose of it.

What matters with violence?

Uh, I think making it feel real is again it's a bit of an illusion, a bit like dialogue in as much as most violence in

in the real world is over really quickly. Um, and most violence has got

quickly. Um, and most violence has got very bad medium-term effects. I mean, the thing that you see

effects. I mean, the thing that you see in the movies where or in a regular story where uh you know, somebody is hit hard and they stagger back and then they come

back at you and swing at you and back and forth, back and forth. That does not happen in real life. If you get hit in the head, you are sick and dizzy for a week, you know? You're just out of

action.

Yeah. Also, if you watch the average bar fight, it's just so lame.

It is. is just swiping and brawling is there's no style to it. There's no

technique to it. So again, violence is something that is no nowhere near realistic.

Um and why do we it's a really interesting question. Why do we want it

interesting question. Why do we want it in a in a story? Why do we like it? And

uh the answer to that I think is is paradoxical because generally speaking out of the population as a whole people who read books are the most thoughtful

probably the most educated the most uh in some way what you would call not virtuous but you know they're on on one side of the divide. Why do they want

violence in the book? And I think it is because they know that in a civilized society, you shouldn't have it. You

should have law. You should have due process. You should have rights for the

process. You should have rights for the accused. That people know that as that's

accused. That people know that as that's the price of civilization. That's how we organize ourselves. They get that. They

organize ourselves. They get that. They

understand it. They approve of it. They

would not like to see the real world any different. But man is it frustrating if

different. But man is it frustrating if somebody has stolen your car.

You just want to smash them in the face.

Oh yeah. You don't want to go through hook.

Yeah. You know, so that the real world that they're committed to that they feel like they they need to have and support in in a good solid liberal way. And I

don't mean liberal uh politically necess.

Yeah. I just mean in terms of modern civilization. They know that we need

civilization. They know that we need these rules and safeguards, but it is terribly frustrating. And so they love

terribly frustrating. And so they love the consolation of being in a fictional universe. They know it's fictional, but

universe. They know it's fictional, but they love to see it happen as a release, as a consolation.

So then, as you're writing violence and we're talking about the illusion and bringing that to life, what matters there? And do you feel like it's the same sort of thing where

pulling from a reference bank of violent stories that you've read?

Yeah, largely. And and also lived, you know, cuz I I grew up in a in a very it was a manu huge manufacturing city and

it was very uh inarticulate emotionally.

Um everything was every dispute was about a fight and numerous little triggers constantly. Um, you know, I was

triggers constantly. Um, you know, I was a smart kid. I did well in school. And

that was uh a trigger. You know, people hate you. They think you're above

hate you. They think you're above yourself. You think they think you're a

yourself. You think they think you're a class traitor if you're doing well. So,

I'm experienced at it and I'm good at it. So, in a way, it was kind of

it. So, in a way, it was kind of remembering the ballet moves as it were for that. But mainly, it's about tuning

for that. But mainly, it's about tuning into uh people's secret hidden desires.

And I I when I did bookstore events or public events, I I I used to have a line. I said the re the reason why you

line. I said the re the reason why you like richer is that even though you are good citizens, you are civilized people,

you are all of the good things, even though you all have a list of 10 people you would cheerfully shoot in the head.

And they do you know and they see it happen on the page and it is a release.

It is uh it is getting the satisfaction without actually see without actually having it in real life.

Clothing clothing is your writing. How

how does clothing inform character? I

think it is a symbol, you know, it's a very quick way of of describing a type of person um that you we all have a kind

of internal comparative database of uh you know, if you see an old an old old guy with a long gray ponytail and double denim, you kind of know who that person is.

Yeah.

uh you see a guy wearing um you know lace up Oxfords and and pleated chinos or something like that, you know who

that guy is. They they are quick references I think like teeth as well. I

I once had a fan who was a dental hygienist and she would write in about every reference to the appearance of people's teeth in books. And I found

that fascinating cuz I realized I was doing that instinctively. Again, kind of trying to sum up a character through a quick visual reference. Uh, you know, a

snaggletoothoth person, a person with missing teeth, a person with a wolflike teeth or something like that. Um, she

was obviously a professional and very interested in it and was picking up on everything and I wasn't really realizing I was doing it. It was a shorthand way of describing people.

All right. We're uh you're invited to a university. You're given a semester to

university. You're given a semester to teach a class on writing, a seminar on writing. How do you structure the

writing. How do you structure the curriculum? What are the core things

curriculum? What are the core things that you're trying to tell people?

Uh I would turn down that gig. I

absolutely would.

I don't think I'm I don't think I'm good as as a teacher. I'm pretty sure that writing is not teachable.

I think plenty of shortcuts within the business of writing are totally teachable. You know, how to get a good

teachable. You know, how to get a good agent, what pitfalls to avoid, how to relate to a publisher, how to do this or that. I think absolutely that can be

that. I think absolutely that can be taught based on experience of what has worked and what hasn't. But actually how to write, I'm not sure uh can be taught.

When you say not teachable, does that also mean not learnable? or can

something be yes, you can learn how to do it, but that doesn't mean that it can be taught.

I I think you absolutely can learn to do it. And I would I would allow possibly

it. And I would I would allow possibly the the possibility that something that might take you 10 years of of reading before you figure it out for yourself could be explained a little faster. But

that's probably a rare occurrence. It's

and it's probably only very partial. I

don't think you could take a completely untuded person, you know, let's say you've got an intelligent person who is capable at lots of different things. I

don't think there's any any process by which you could turn that person into an accomplished novelist. You either are or

accomplished novelist. You either are or you're not. It's again a bit like being

you're not. It's again a bit like being a musician. You you've either got those

a musician. You you've either got those pathways in your brain or you don't.

Right?

I've got musician friends. In fact, I made a CD with a couple of um musician friends. They did the music, I did the

friends. They did the music, I did the lyrics.

Oh, cool.

Totally cool. Just the best fun ever.

And hanging out with them, you know, structurally, biologically, our brains are all the same, obviously, but it's almost like there are little tubes that in my brain, some of them are are big

and fat and and can let things through in others are are collapsed, you know, like flat tires that nothing will get through. And their brains are different.

through. And their brains are different.

They've got different tubes open and different tubes closed. And it just if you are a musician, you are. And if

you're not, you never will be.

Last question. You're English. Why has

so much good writing come from Scotland, from England, from Ireland? What is it about this part of the world?

I think uh I think it's a different answers for each of those different countries. Um, I

think Scotland is I mean England is the center of the UK and all the power lies exactly where we are right now in London and I think Scottish people feel

neglected and resentful of that and so they build up a an alternative culture that's theirs. I think in Ireland, it's

that's theirs. I think in Ireland, it's very clear in Ireland. I love Ireland for this reason that if you go there, uh they they give you a chance, whoever

you are, even you're not a writer, you're just some guy, you you're in the pub with a bunch of friends, you start to tell a joke or you start to tell a story or whatever, they will give you a

chance. Maybe it's only 5 seconds, maybe

chance. Maybe it's only 5 seconds, maybe it's only 10 seconds, but you've got the stage to state your case and they will

listen to you. And I think that's huge that uh people grow up feeling that they will be heard. Not for long if they're

crap, but they will give you the chance to be heard. I think that's huge.

You know, there reminds me of a bunch of Irish friends. Bunch of Irish friends. I

Irish friends. Bunch of Irish friends. I

was trying to think about how are they different from my American friends. And

the way that they're the same is that, you know, they're pretty career oriented, but the way that they're different is all of them to a tea. They

know how to tell a joke. They know how to tell a story.

Exactly.

And one of the things I noticed that when I was in Ireland is like if you could go to the pub and you can tell a good story and you can keep people engaged, you can make people laugh, you can

you can just hook them in and keep them there, you're part of the squad, right? You are. And you get that you you

right? You are. And you get that you you get to be that because they give you the chance. If you seize it, then you have

chance. If you seize it, then you have the space, you have the table, you you know, you have the platform. And um and I think that encourages them. It

certainly emboldens people. It

encourages them and they think, "Yeah, I can do this."

Well, you are uh welcome on How I Write Anytime. This was so fun. It was great

Anytime. This was so fun. It was great to meet you.

Good to meet you, too. And thank you very much for the uh opportunity.

Yeah.