I Make $1M/Year Hosting PDFs on the Internet

They say the first million is the hardest thing to do.

This is Ston. He just reached 1 million a year with a simple ID hosting PDF and he built it while working a full-time job.

Tiny has two eyes because that was $30 and the one with one eye was $300. That

just shows you how like lightly I was thinking about this. Tiny was just a side project.

In this episode, Eston shares how we got 70,000 user a month on autopilot.

It's one of the best organic traffic channels ever. how we built a 1 million

channels ever. how we built a 1 million a year startup without raising a dollar and what it actually takes to succeed.

There's so many common patterns that you can just pinpoint I see again and again about why some people are successful or not and I want to know that. So today is a special format. We're going to meet

special format. We're going to meet Stone. He just reached as you can see 1

Stone. He just reached as you can see 1 million AR with his SAS tiny host and he told me that he was for few days in Bali. So now we're going to take the

Bali. So now we're going to take the scooter, meet him at his house, and I will ask him all the question that I want to ask him.

What if he's not here?

Hey.

Hey, man. How are you? Good. Nice to

meet you.

Yeah.

So, Eran, thanks for having me in your place in Bali. You're here for a few weeks right?

I'm here for a few weeks. First time in Bali. Uh, beautiful little place. I'm

Bali. Uh, beautiful little place. I'm

glad I can record this in person with you.

Yeah. What do you think so far about Bali? Let's start by that.

Bali? Let's start by that.

I heard a lot of things. I heard uh full of influences. This can be a bit kind

of influences. This can be a bit kind of, you know, vain and um pretentious, but honestly, like after a week, it's been a lot better than I thought. Like

there's a lot of high quality people here. Um it's all the things like you

here. Um it's all the things like you like from Asia, the convenience, the weather, the food, get grab, everything's like 10 15 minutes apart.

Um and it's it's a great spot. I mean, I found a more quiet spot now, which I wasn't there last week, but I can see why people are here. Uh I just got to

find the right community. That's the

harder part I think as we were saying.

So we are not here but to talk about body right. Yes. We are here to talk

body right. Yes. We are here to talk about tiny host. You reached 1 million not long ago. I think it was two months ago right?

Yeah. Yeah. End of Jan.

So can you explain us like what is Tiny O?

Yeah. So Tiny

Strap line is where the simplest way to share your work online. So you can think of us as you know a better version of Google Drive or Dropbox when you want to

share work publicly. Um it's like the power of we transfer sorry the simplicity of we transfer with the power of Dropbox. So I was really interested

of Dropbox. So I was really interested in very small lightweight tools um like we transfer and inspired by that but I always thought it was too difficult to put things online in the internet. So

Tiny is like, you know, six, seven years old now. Um, and it's basically a web

old now. Um, and it's basically a web hosting tool for nontechnical people. So

you can drag and drop, you know, over 100 different file formats and then you get a link in seconds. So Google Drive and, you know, we transfer is one to one, we're one to many. And so you have

a clean link. You can have your custom domain, uh, customize your URL. Um,

there's analytics, password protection, and a lot of features kind of baked on top of it. Um, and it's it's blown up.

So, yeah, we have, you know, have had over two million kind of users signed up and it's been incredible to see how diverse the audience has been. Um, which

makes marketing hell for us, but it's also a really awesome moat, I guess. Um,

so we have everybody from, you know, a restaurant trying to host a menu, uh, because they need a QR code and it's a PDF, so they drag, drop, and get a QR code. uh to now vibe coders. So we're

code. uh to now vibe coders. So we're

getting a lot of traffic through people who you know are building stuff from claude or or GPT but have no idea how to put it online. So they get this HTML and then they're like okay what's the

simplest way to upload it and we come up top mainly because of the SEO work we've done for the 5 years um and then they drag drop and they're like you know wow this is this is very cool. We spoke to a

customer uh a few days ago and she was like, "I found Tiny through Claude." Uh

but honestly, it looked too good to be true. It looked like it was a scam. Uh

true. It looked like it was a scam. Uh

and I was I was impressed. I mean, I think that's literally what we were going for, what we've done since day one. We wanted to simplify complex

one. We wanted to simplify complex technology. Uh and it's resonated with a

technology. Uh and it's resonated with a lot of people. Um I think one of the successes of it has been I didn't reinvent the wheel. I didn't try to

build something groundbreaking new. Uh I

took an existing validated industry uh and problem space web hosting it's been around 20 30 years and modernized it simplified it made it more accessible

for another market uh and that's been a success. So it's been very cool to see

success. So it's been very cool to see that slowly grow over the years.

Well, congrats first because that's a big milestone.

Yeah. Yeah. uh we'll go back to actually the stepby-step process like all the milestone with your but first can we go back to your background like what were

you doing before or did you start I am a software engineer so I studied computer science um and then my first job outside of computer science was uh

in a big bank one of the largest banks in the US in London um and it was uh it was attractive from the outside you had like these big office office buildings,

you had all these perks, you had, you know, a good salary. Um, when you're a student and you're student debt, but then after you spend like a few weeks

and months here, you realize that this is basically going to be your life the next 20, 30 years. And the only difference is you're in a different seat

where the director is compared to what you're here. And um I was like, "No, I

you're here. And um I was like, "No, I can't do this. I can't spend the next 20 years. I I didn't work 15 16 years to to

years. I I didn't work 15 16 years to to do this. And I think the reality is like

do this. And I think the reality is like that was my first proper job. Um and I was always very creative and free flowing. I was creating you know

flowing. I was creating you know websites when I was like 12 13 very like lightweight websites of people and I just like exploring and doing things on my own but I didn't think of myself as a

entrepreneur or founder. But then I realized the only way to achieve you know a career or or life that I wanted which was like being involved in a lot

of things um like desired and marketing and strategy as well as engineering is you know start your own company there's very few jobs that can give you that

flexibility um and in the big company you're like a small cog in the big wheel and so eventually I started working on lots of ideas tiny is my third or fourth

idea Um it was a long journey to get there. The first one made all the

there. The first one made all the mistakes you know in the book. Um but

then eventually found the Indie hacking group, found Indie London. Um a good group, good community in London, super supportive and I found all these people around me who are you know making 10 20k

MR. I was like this is like more than my salary. This is like basically freedom.

salary. This is like basically freedom.

Um let me just now like go solo. No

founder, no invest no co-founder, no investment. um and just figure out how

investment. um and just figure out how far I can kind of do something like this. And so tiny was just a side

this. And so tiny was just a side project. It was just a project where

project. It was just a project where actually I wanted to launch something where the purpose of it was for me to learn marketing. So it wasn't

learn marketing. So it wasn't technically complex. It took me like you

technically complex. It took me like you know 3 4 weeks to to build a prototype.

And then uh I was like now I'm just going to spend the next few months marketing it. Uh because I got to a

marketing it. Uh because I got to a point where I was I'm a software engineer. technically capable of

engineer. technically capable of building anything. Um, this is obviously

building anything. Um, this is obviously pre- AAI long a while ago. And then um I said but I don't know how to get users.

I don't know how to get know growth, organic growth. Um, this is going to be

organic growth. Um, this is going to be like a marketing exercise. And I even cheap down the domain name. So tiny as two eyes because that was $30. Uh, the

one with one eye was $300, which in hindsight is not a lot of money, but now I've got the one with one eye as well.

Uh, but that just shows you how like how light lightly I was thinking about this. I was like, this is this is just

this. I was like, this is this is just kind of an exercise and I don't know how this is going to go. Um,

and yeah, the rest is history. It's been

a it's been a really cool roller coaster. Kind of surreal basically and

coaster. Kind of surreal basically and still still full of imposter syndrome and and trying to figure out why me, like why do I understand what's going on versus, you know, other people. But if

you figure out and you dive into like why people's new ideas are not working or why people are not going down a certain route there's there's so many common patterns you can just pinpoint I see again and again uh about why some

people are successful or not and I want to know that because you say that at the beginning you had a lot of failure and you said you did all the mistakes that any beginner will make what are these mistake you think

the biggest mistake that I still see which is crazy especially for it's very developer heavy mistake is um spending too too much time building product. So I

think the first startup I spent 6 months um basically just building this product and thinking it's basically the uh best idea ever. Uh when I slowly showing it

idea ever. Uh when I slowly showing it to people along the journey um and then they're like wow this is amazing like you know when is it when it's going to launch? I can't wait to use it. And I

launch? I can't wait to use it. And I

launched it and no one used it. Um, and

there was just this like cricket pin drop silence we put on the app store. It

didn't like blow up and I was just like, "Okay, now what?" kind of thing. Um, so

that was kind of the biggest lesson. And

then I think we also just had tons of co-founders basically. So I was I went

co-founders basically. So I was I went around just telling people um you I'm building this app and a lot of my friends just like, "Oh, this is great.

Can I help out?" And I was like, "Sure, come on board." And so we had like four or five people building this app and eventually only like one or two of us actually doing anything. Uh so that was a lot of friction. And then we were also chasing the YC. We were chasing

investors.

Um and uh yeah there was just so much kind of friction and and slow pace going on.

And then also um we held our there was one thing that came out of um one of these kind of pitch competitions that kind of actually they were right. We

held on to our idea too much too strongly uh about what we we thought the market needed but really

it's about launching something being flexible with it and then building for the market. And so we held on to this

the market. And so we held on to this vision of a product um that eventually you know some people liked it never caught on to mass appeal. It was BC

social app um and then it was just yeah kind of fizzled out um the team. Then

the next idea was B2B. Um we built like a really good you know tech stack and product for like a year but we never figured out distribution, never figured

out marketing. Um we had kind of uh my

out marketing. Um we had kind of uh my co-founder had a family friend who was kind of you know bankrolling the company and so we had some kind of money but we

never really managed to get the business side going. Um so it was slightly better

side going. Um so it was slightly better but the key thing was still distribution there like never focused on really you know getting it out there and getting

people on board. Um, yeah, and I see all these mistakes still being made now, unfortunately, like people spending too much time on it or they're trying to kind of create a groundbreaking idea, uh, or they're like super passionate

about something and they don't test the market with it. Um, or there's analysis paralysis, they kind of like spend so much time researching it. Um and then there's new things which I never

experienced but um indie hackers seem to love is the whole like multi-product approach which is like you build something you get to 1K great okay then just do it again build another

onek and you build another 1k um and I get it I think there's people obviously like Mark Lou and Peter levels that do it and that's a that's a strategy that's

a lifestyle but I honestly and I and I think Even Mark admits this like if if if you really want to go far, you should really focus and all in. But if you don't, that's fair. Um some people

really, you know, like the lifestyle and the the journey about building different products, but you look at the biggest companies out there. It's not because, you know, Drew Houston from Dropbox had

Dropbox plus like something else on the side. He was just all in on Dropbox and

side. He was just all in on Dropbox and it scaled, right? Uh or Apple or Google or whatever. And so, um, yeah, for me,

or whatever. And so, um, yeah, for me, I've always been a lazy engineer, I'd say, which has worked well. So, like the thought of like launching another product, now I know what it's going to take to get there. The marketing around

it just like, you know, scares me or just like bores me. Um, so it's much easier to just compound and invest in the same product. And then, yeah, that's that's how it's been. We've we've had

slow steady growth. I'd say we've not had the growth in the first, you know, five or 6 years as you would like expect you see on Twitter with the crazy hockey sick growth and that kind of stuff, but

we've had consistent slow deep roots being built. Um,

being built. Um, can you uh can you explain that by the way the milestone like I think you started in uh 2019, right?

Yeah. So, we launched it launched on 2019 very small side project like you couldn't even pay for it. you're going

to log in. There was just like we transfer widget. Um, you know, and yeah,

transfer widget. Um, you know, and yeah, I went in with that same philosophy, right? I said, I'm going to create this

right? I said, I'm going to create this and I'm just going to put it out there and I want to see, you know, what people do with it. Let's just figure it out along the way. I didn't have any

um very strict like ideas for what it should be. Um, and then my first users

should be. Um, and then my first users literally came from Reddit. So I spend a lot of time just um posting on Reddit.

These are the days where it was kind of okay. Now you just get banned.

okay. Now you just get banned.

Yeah.

But there were there were some there were a lot more opportunities back then.

Um and just you being honest with I wasn't spamming really. I was just basically saying, "Hey, look, I create I created this um app. Um I think it's useful. What you guys think? Love your

useful. What you guys think? Love your

feedback on it." Um and it was a really good place to get a lot of good feedback, a lot of things early on. Um,

and from that posted on Slack and Twitter and that's got I got a lot of feedback in terms of like what people like, what they didn't like. Uh, I added a pay wall with features that people requested. Um, so that was one of my

requested. Um, so that was one of my things I learned in the past that when people ask for features, you can just monetize with that. So people wanted custom mains, so I just added that

behind the pay wall. Or people wanted, you know, a way to upload more projects, so I added that behind the pay wall. Um,

and then it wasn't until Product Hunt like six, seven months ago later, uh, where we got the first customers. Um, I

still remember that you never you always remember your first kind of money on the internet. Nothing nothing hits it's

internet. Nothing nothing hits it's better than that.

So Tinyos was your first time making money on internet.

No, it was uh first SAS. I I I had another like small mobile app uh that was making money before but and then never kind of yeah went big. This is the first like Stripe SAS

uh kind of thing that I made. But it's

Yeah, I still remember the first customers from Broadon. I was like, "Wow, people actually, you know, now want to pay for this. This is super cool." It was like $12. I think I

cool." It was like $12. I think I remember the price. I originally was emissions and the price was like $18 or whatever. And I reduced it, reduced it,

whatever. And I reduced it, reduced it, and reduced it till eventually someone bought it. Um and then I was I was a big

bought it. Um and then I was I was a big fan of like if you can find one, you can find 10. you find 10, you can find 100

find 10. you find 10, you can find 100 and so on. And so

at that point I started focusing heavily on distribution, figuring out different types of channels. Um I met people in the community who said SEO is working well. So I tried, you know, SEO,

well. So I tried, you know, SEO, YouTube Reddit socials.

Um just everything. There's a there's a really good book called Traction which kind of lists all the different types of marketing channels you could do. Um and

it turned out in about 6 months time um that YouTube started organically working really well and that was the like the start of the trajectory of organic

growth for Tiny. Um

what type of content were you doing on YouTube?

Um sorry no YouTube SEO but um YouTube was working um well as well but um with YouTube it was just tutorials and

how-tos. Um, so the first video is like

how-tos. Um, so the first video is like faceless. It's like how to upload a PDF

faceless. It's like how to upload a PDF online or like how to upload a React app. Uh, just tutorials and guides. And

app. Uh, just tutorials and guides. And

um, yeah, those videos are still there.

I think YouTube is a very very underrated channel. People still don't

underrated channel. People still don't seem to invest in it mainly because it requires a lot of effort. You need to be quite polished. It's a lot of it has a

quite polished. It's a lot of it has a lot of time in in involvement in it. But

it's one of the best like trust building um channels ever and because it's difficult to do people there's less content out there and you're just compete you're actually competing

against like very lowquality videos a lot of times and if you just create a better version of what a video is out there just like proper camera setup or proper mic or you know a good explainer

um you can get a lot of views and it takes it's it's evergreen so it's not like Tik Tok or socials where it's like very short spikes. Some of our videos literally took like a year before they

start organically ranking and then they hit like 100,000 views. Um, but it's crazy, right? You're waiting a year. So,

crazy, right? You're waiting a year. So,

you're just putting a lot of these videos out um and getting people to, yeah, believe and understand and trust you and go and try. Like, if someone watching a tutorial about how to do X or

Y, there's a very high chance they're going to go in and try it. Um, so it's highly converting as well and and and it it appears on SEO results. So it's um

it's a double-edged sword in that sense.

Just want to ask a question because I know and I see on Twitter every day people who start a SAS start an app get like let's say three customer, five

customer, make like few hundred bucks and then they give up and they go to the next product. And you say that you're a

next product. And you say that you're a big believer that when you get one customer, you can get 10 and 100. Yeah.

What is the mindset or like what is the kind of action that you do when you have your first customer? Do you like analyze it, see like what kind of customer it is, where it came from and go in on that

or you do what you just say like you iterate on different platform distribution.

Yeah, I think um it's mainly customer based um understanding like once you get your first customer, first few customers, it's really about finding out

who they are and what they are, what they stand for, right? Um, and so like we found that most the customers that like us are are non-technical and I just

wanted to understand more about who they are and and and where they hang out, what they read, what's you know workflows they do, what what's their background, what's their job. um and

building these like personas, right? Um

or ICPs I call call it.

And then from that is where you basically start to focus your marketing efforts. So um it could be based on you

efforts. So um it could be based on you know ads, it could be based on forums that they exist in, it could be based on um

you know SEO targeting. So we focus on like the jobs to be done framework um which is web hosting is a very

broad kind of um uh tool but really people don't search for web hosting they search for like you know how do I upload a HTML file or how

do I upload my C how do I upload a restaurant menu and so we started making content and stuff for all of these different use cases um and just try to figure out as many different you know

angles that we could spin web hosting, right? Um, and then we just started

right? Um, and then we just started attracting lots of different groups of people. Um, and so like speaking to your

people. Um, and so like speaking to your customers is really big and just trying to understand exactly, you know, who they are, right? Like put yourself in

their shoes. Um, and just go really

their shoes. Um, and just go really really deep on that. I think that's it cuz it's very rare that you find one person. There's only one person in the

person. There's only one person in the world of that kind, right? It's you

somehow build the most niche product in the world. I I think it's near

the world. I I think it's near impossible that's the only person that's there. There's obviously some products

there. There's obviously some products which are more niche than others. So

maybe you only find a few hundred or a few thousand, but there's not just one.

There's never just this one. Um and it's just about Yeah. How do you find more?

Um how do you unravel them? How do you basically figure out who they are and where they hang out and then be there every time more people have that problem

or you know need a solution or are looking for something, you're just there. Um and it's for us it it happened

there. Um and it's for us it it happened to be on YouTube or SEO, right? People

we found that people just Google stuff so that we're just there.

Um so yeah, that's worked really well.

So you chose the boring bus, boring marketing, which is YouTube SEO and SEO.

What's the fun marketing?

I feel like people are attracted to viral, you know, they want to make one video that will bring them thousand million customer and be retired. Like I

think that's all people think right now.

But I love the growing past like you know you as you say it's like something that compounds. Yeah.

that compounds. Yeah.

And you have to wait sometimes a year for your video to reach 100K. But if I remember it well, at one point you had can I think 70,000 customer a month through SEO or

something?

70,000 users. Yeah.

Users. Yeah. Yeah.

So, show me the strategy like what did you do? How did you find a keyword? Like

do? How did you find a keyword? Like

what did you do with SEO and YouTube SEO?

Yeah. I I mean people seem to think I'm like a magician at SEO. And honestly, I don't come from an SEO background. Come

from a software engineering background.

But I just spoke to a lot of people um understood what they did and the playbooks are there. It's not there's no like dark art strategy. There's no

silver bullet. It's just time consuming and people don't want to put the effort in. Um and so I think the first

in. Um and so I think the first prerequisite is understanding whether SEO is good or not for your business.

It's not good for every business. Um

some businesses have a lot more keyword opportunities than others. So um using tool like HRES or Semrush um is like super powerful. It's expensive but if

super powerful. It's expensive but if you're serious about it you got to invest in that tool and just like doing keyword analysis around it. So um I searched like web hosting and PDF

hosting and then upload PDF and all the different kind of creative terms around it and looked for their difficulties. So

these platforms analyze all of these searches and they give you an answer. So

they give you like a competitive um analysis on there. So keyword difficulty and search volume are the two main ones.

So it'll tell you like from 0 to 100 how difficult it is to rank for that. So you

want something close to zero as possible and then search for how many people are searching for this every single month, right? Um and then from that it's really

right? Um and then from that it's really about building content around it. So

um you want Google first of all to trust you as a website. Um it's like a chicken and egg problem. When you launch a new domain or website, you have zero

relationship with Google and Google is very cautious because there's so many websites, so much spam on the internet.

And so there's something they call a domain rating, which is a vanity metric.

But you kind of want to build this trust. And that's through, you know,

trust. And that's through, you know, getting links from other people, other websites, guest blogs. Um, but it's also just about producing good content. Um,

and so you want to create, you know, landing pages, um, and blog posts around the content. So if you take a topic

the content. So if you take a topic like, you know, PDF hosting, we created many different forms of content for that. So there's blog posts around it,

that. So there's blog posts around it, there's landing pages around it, there's YouTube videos around it. The landing

pages are very well structured.

um bottom of funnel kind of uh keywords.

So people who are searching for actions like upload PDF or share PDF as a link um they're very kind of focus on clicking upload on next. the blog posts

are more, you know, around the topic like, you know, how do you share a PDF as a link? Why would you want to share a PDF as a link? Dense content, good, high quality content. Um,

quality content. Um, and then, you know, just doing that for lots of different opportunities. Um, and

it's a bit of like, you know, putting something into an oven and not knowing how it's going to turn out. That's

literally SEO sometimes. Like, you

really, it's a black box. There's

tricks. There's obviously good practice and stuff, but you don't know if Google's going to rank you or not. And

sometimes like, you know, Google will rank you higher than websites that are already there because Google's always looking for fresh and um, you know, relevant content. So, it's always

relevant content. So, it's always testing things. The algorithm is

testing things. The algorithm is changing. Every six three or four

changing. Every six three or four months, they're changing their core engine, right? And so, things going up

engine, right? And so, things going up and down. So, you actually have that

and down. So, you actually have that opportunity to be kind of trial and tested in those in those avenues. Um,

and it's it's patience game, right? Like

it's yeah, you're like people people looking for the short-term viral videos, viral Tik Tok videos, $100,000, but SEO will take you at least, you know, 3 to 6

months to start seeing results. And even

then, it's like uh it's very baby results, right? Um, and then it'll

results, right? Um, and then it'll slowly compound and compound, but it's one of the best like organic, you know, traffic channels uh ever. today we still

get like like I don't know like maybe 100,000 plus kind of visitors through SEO right every month um and so even

with chat and stuff it's still like the key key kind of source um and yeah we've kind of cemented our position there um because of it so it's a very very useful

tool but it requires a lot of different it's very technical I think so now even like now we have a small team so we have someone who's kind of working on building links for us. We have someone

who's, you know, doing analysis, who's, you know, keyword keyword research and SEO analyst. We have someone who's

SEO analyst. We have someone who's writing content for us, who's writing blog posts and that kind of stuff. So,

there's like there's three core people just working on that channel.

Um, and that's because we realize that that's our foundation, right? Um but you can do all that stuff initially like you can write the blog post do the research

and figure out like what you need to be what you need to do techn technically.

Um I think the technical part is also a really big part that people skip on like making sure your page is fast. Um it

follows kind of there's um Google's kind of SEO technical standards. So like FCP first content will paint um all these kind of uh metrics. So you got to tick

all those off. Google Lighthouse allows you to kind of put your website in in check, but just following all this kind of stuff. Um, yeah, we'll we'll get you

of stuff. Um, yeah, we'll we'll get you there and just wait. Basically,

you know, SEO works. You just don't have the time for it. But every day you spend postponing boring marketing is another win for your competitor who already ranked number one on Google. Take this

example. If you have a social media scheduling tools, then people will look for that on Google. They will search exactly this keyword. And as you can see, there is 3,400

people who are looking for this exact keyword every single month on Google, which means that there is 3,400 chances for you to convert these visitors into customers. And this works for any kind

customers. And this works for any kind of product. People are searching on

of product. People are searching on Google trying to find the best product in this market. And if you want to convert these people into customers, you have no choice but to show up in this

zone. The only thing you have to do is

zone. The only thing you have to do is to kickstart your SEO now. So it will compound over time. But I understand you're probably way too busy trying to improve your product. That's why we built this trip. You just have to create

an account, add your website, and we take care of everything. We write and publish daily content for you. Build

backlink from real businesses so your brand shows up on Google and AI search.

If you want to give it a try, you can click on the link in the description to get your 3 days free trial. Now back to the episode. You started zero MR. I

the episode. You started zero MR. I think you got stuck at $70 MR for a while.

Yeah.

And you started to make decent money years after, right?

Yeah.

Because you were still working at your company while you were building. How

long did it take for you to start the company to actually make enough money to quit your job?

I think it took about two two and a half years. Um, I mean, obviously I was

years. Um, I mean, obviously I was building buildings on the side, so I wasn't putting a lot of the effort in that you would have full-time. And I

think there's a lot of advantages as well because when you do that, you're basically able to focus on the important stuff. You only have few few hours in

stuff. You only have few few hours in your day, right, to make things work.

And so you can be super, you know, laser focused on what you need to be done, what needs to be done. Um, but I I mean I I I think you know everyone has their

own time they want to jump uh across the bridge. I think I'm on a more risk

bridge. I think I'm on a more risk averse side. I wanted to wait till you

averse side. I wanted to wait till you know it was making enough and a little bit more um to to take that jump. So I

could have probably left a bit sooner but I wanted to be a bit more comfortable in there. Um but yeah, I had a decision to make. you at some point like let it be like a side thing or I

went all in and just continue to grow it. Um and even then people are like do

it. Um and even then people are like do you really want to go fulltime on this like family members or whatever.

But for me it was like yeah this was like what I always wanted to do. So I

was like there's no there's no brainer in this. I just waited until like

in this. I just waited until like personal things aligned and took the jump. But it was yeah good good two two

jump. But it was yeah good good two two and a half years. Um so I think I left around yeah an 8k MR. um dollars and

then uh we've just kind of doubled every year since then basically. So 8K MR what was the friction to go to let's say 100k

MR because I think the next big milestone was like 300 KMR something like that. What were the friction

like that. What were the friction between 10 and yeah um

I think at that point it really is about trying to optimize the product and just improve the product. I mean there was a lot more content obviously put out like

I remember one there was a pivotal point in Tiny's journey where um we had a PDF hosting so originally we were just HTML

hosting instead posting website hosting and then I did a lot of and this is I think that something that you know I did really well and I don't know many people do it but it's userdriven development

and that means like really focusing on how your user are using the product um speaking them but also like just observing the activity on the

platform and then building more in that direction. So like I saw a lot of people

direction. So like I saw a lot of people um uploading PDFs that have been converted to HTML and then using us. So

I said like what if you just uploaded a PDF and then you know it worked and I built it in like a weekend but like then the SEO kicked in and about you know 3 4

months later that became one of the top use cases and just like unlocked a whole different like avenue of customers. So

there was a bit of this kind of stuff now features that we built that um again we didn't have. So we add a QR codes we had ability to password protect. So

there's a lot of these kind of building blocks. Um I think also we had a big

blocks. Um I think also we had a big leverage at the point we redesign a website. So I hired a designer. I think

website. So I hired a designer. I think

now you really want to look good. I can

I can tell when something's an indie project. Um when you open a landing

project. Um when you open a landing page, you can tell when when it's designed by Claude and stuff and you just don't have that level of like trust in the in in a product anymore. Um, and

so there was a massive design overhaul we had that kind of kind of build more calmness in the product. Um, and then honestly it was just about doing lots

and lots of small tweaks and things. Um

I saw a video and hindsight is an easy thing to kind of say oh this was the right thing to do but um I think yeah just focusing on SEO going deeper we hired people and just went deeper and

deeper and deeper into it like made into proper team um but I think also just like it's really a really good strategy is just making minor improvements all

over your platform but if you if you make like aundred minor improvements, it actually accumulates to a way bigger change. Um,

and I think some people are looking for that like that one feature is going to break out the product or it's going to be amazing. Um, and sometimes it's not

be amazing. Um, and sometimes it's not that. Sometimes it's just tightening

that. Sometimes it's just tightening this up, making this a bit better, improving that experience, improving that, getting feedback and putting that better and just iterating on that. And

when you look back, you've made all of these changes in like 6 months or a year and your product is in a whole different place and a new customer comes in like, "Wow, like I wanted this, this, and this." And you have it. Um, it's like,

this." And you have it. Um, it's like, you know, when you go to a product and you um you find a feature that's like, "Wow,

that's literally what I needed." It's

not because the founder thought of the idea and put it there. It's because

someone asked for it before. uh and then they built it. Uh and clearly that wasn't the only person in the world that needed that. And so it's because of uh

needed that. And so it's because of uh that kind of journey and all of these you know users in the past who have basically helped you along the way um that you you've come up with this

product that just seems like it's exactly what you needed and it's basically because a lot of work behind the background, right? Um and that was it. I mean, I think there's different

it. I mean, I think there's different ways that obviously businesses are being built. The tiny way has always been very

built. The tiny way has always been very slow, steady growth. Uh, we added consistent revenue every single month.

We always grew. Uh, and that obviously compounded. Um,

compounded. Um, and then more recently, like we've been blowing up because the vibe coding space. So, the market has shifted. It's

space. So, the market has shifted. It's

really weird. like when we focused originally it was very much um HTML hosting and now and then we went to PDF hosting we had 100 different file types

and now like HTML is back because like all of these people uh there's a whole new audience of people now who produce more HTML than ever because they use

Claude and Gemini and LMS and um yeah we're one of the simplest way to host HTML like you drag drop in 10 seconds you have a link and so it's weird having this full circle moment

But it's also the bootstrap advantage.

Like if we were VC backed, we wouldn't have been deemed successful. We might

have, you know, shot shop. But when

you're bootstrapping and you have this technically infinite runway for the, you know, better or the worse, you can just hang around until eventually things

align, right? And then you blow up,

align, right? And then you blow up, right? Um, and it's a very underrated

right? Um, and it's a very underrated advantage when you're bootstrapping. I

see like what you're exactly saying now.

I see that with a few people Mari from um Thi Tali. Yeah,

Tali. Yeah, I saw that. See with post that you are also motion like just you're waiting you have a good product and then something like a train come and

the trend was agent like you know AI agent open CL and everything and it just explode because you're here with the good structure the good product and you just like plug to a trend and it

just like skyro skyrocket your company and that's a bit what happened to you right exactly exactly how do you how do you position yourself when you have the good product and you see a trend what is like

how does your mind work position in terms of marketing or both product wise and marketing wise yeah um

I think one of the main things I try to do is build around the audience that's there right and then it goes back to userdriven development um and so

we we're we're actually the company's kind of reinventing itself right now like you know Replet is or some of these big companies in the AI space and you know originally we were we still are the

simplest way to share your work online but what we're trying to coin now is what we call what what I'm calling like the DIY stack or do it yourself um and

there's a lot of people who are now empowered through AI and able to do things themselves like you know build landing pages build tools build you know

a habit tracker whatever Um, and they're using a series of tools, right? It could

be an LLM, it could be something helps design it, but then we're you need something to put online and we're kind of the hosting part of that. And so

that's how we're positioning ourselves now. And a lot of it is just um really

now. And a lot of it is just um really speaking to users like we're very in touch with us. We have at least, you know, two two three calls a week with

our users. Um, and we're listening and

our users. Um, and we're listening and trying to figure out qualitatively what they're all talking about. you know,

where they're from, you know, why they like the platform. And it's very very obvious things. It's it was simple, it

obvious things. It's it was simple, it was fast. Um,

was fast. Um, and I, you know, I I I was just, you know, doing it myself and I needed, you know, a tool to to do it and just get it

online quickly, right? Um, and that's been it. So now we're positioned

been it. So now we're positioned ourselves as this like, you know, DIY platform, very simple, easy to use. Um

and that's been yeah a really good differentiator to everyone else cuz I mean look at if you look at the engineering space you have versel

netifi they're doing their own thing they're targeting huge companies um startups they're very deep technical stacks we've deliberately said no we're

not going to go deep um we're just going to be like this uh this is enough in terms of feature- wise um And we're

going to be simplest. And to be simple means you say a lot you say no to a lot more than you um you say yes, right?

Because as we build a product as well like every feature we add there's a lot of you know inputs coming through. It's

a struggle to figure out like how do you add this make it visible enough but also not complicate the product for the 80% flow that comes through. So, you know,

day one it was literally like drag and drop, enter your email, click submit, uh, and then you have a link. And that's

still the flow basically now. There's a

few kind of extra buttons to click, but that's the same flow that's there. And

then there's a lot of other stuff around it that once you get familiar with the platform, you can kind of do. Um, and

that's just, you know, how I've looked at it. I think I'm just I'd say I'm a

at it. I think I'm just I'd say I'm a product kind of engineer and I really enjoy understanding how a user kind of uses the product and we use

stuff like clarity and uh obviously user research to understand that but it's really about yeah getting to know your users and that's one of your biggest moes honestly

I've I've realized more recently like we've never focused on competition uh obviously we look around the market and see what's going on but it's never been like oh that guy's doing now. We need to

do that because a lot of the insights that we've got, a lot of the road map that we we we understand is all built

off like userdriven conversations. So I

deliberately don't plan like what we're going to do for like the next 6 months or Yeah. And this is the mistake I think

or Yeah. And this is the mistake I think people have made and we've made in the I've made in the past is like thinking okay I'm going to build this this and this because yeah like vibe coding comes up and suddenly you're a different

product right you need a different kind of set of features and tools and so we've really focused on just very iteratively like just understanding the market and we have ideas we put them in

the backlog sometimes there are them sometimes they're not um but we bring things and bring things out and then eventually it just you every few months

formulation into a product. That's uh

I feel like it's really scary a lot of thing that you said right now is that you have to say no to um yeah no to a lot of things. For example,

you went to a blue ocean.

Yeah.

Like there was versel really technical big company you made it simple. So you

had to say no to this customer to focus on the single kind of normie user. Then

you have to say no to also check online what's happening on X. What are the new what are your competitors doing? And you

have to kind of close yourself from the people around you to focus on one thing which is your customer and your customer satisfaction kind of and it's I feel like it's scary

even for myself to do that because you feel like you have a big FOMO of like what are other people doing what if I just do like my competitor because they are making money. How did you deal

with that? Like to say no to all this

with that? Like to say no to all this opportunity and just like close everything and focus on what you need.

Yeah, I mean I I don't think I've honestly had a a problem with that because I think like the user I've been very

very tied in with user feedback and I think that's always given me the um confidence when I've kind of built features like I

remember and sometimes we do very lightweight delivery of stuff like I remember when we implemented password protection um we didn't really have password protection we had an input We

entered the password. I remember the first user that uh user that I messaged on support and they're like, "Hey, the password protection doesn't work." And

it's cuz we never built the back end for it. So I was like, "Okay, can you tell

it. So I was like, "Okay, can you tell me the password and we'll set it for you?" And he was like, "Hang on." So

you?" And he was like, "Hang on." So

like I tell you the password and it gets set. Do you even have this feature? I

set. Do you even have this feature? I

was like, "Yeah, yeah, don't worry. We

have this feature." And so once we implemented that, once that happened once, I was like, "Okay, let's build out password protection." And then they

password protection." And then they loved it. Um, and so like being being

loved it. Um, and so like being being lightweight with uh implementation I think is is good. So you can like move quite fast. But I think I don't know in

quite fast. But I think I don't know in terms of competition and stuff don't know just uh it's yeah just just being laser focused

on what's inside what's going on within your company than anything else. I think

the FOMO is there of of course you can see people doing this this and that but like just be what people put out does not mean is technically successful a lot

of times. Um it just means like their

of times. Um it just means like their like punt or like the idea in that kind of space. Um and we've just always had

of space. Um and we've just always had that like level of growth that was was was moving. So I think we're

was moving. So I think we're we were also lucky in the product that we have in the sense that it is um a

very universal product and so it's it can be used by a lot of people um and so we never it's like a foundational product that can be used in different

ways. So we never needed to you know

ways. So we never needed to you know build loads of different features. We

just find different audiences for the same product. It's just one tool that

same product. It's just one tool that fits a lot of people. Um, and then for what I was gonna say, but I think it's just about,

yeah, like being closed off from the world around you. Um, I think I think the FOMO

around you. Um, I think I think the FOMO could come from like, if anything, like FOMO comes from other products. Like I'm

seeing like AI stuff come here and there blow up like 20k MR in like a month. I'm

like, oh, it took me a long time to get 20K MR. This guy got it for a month.

Like, should I just build that? Um, that

would be super cool. But, um, but then my laziness kicks in. I'm like, "Oh, I'm not going to start a new product. Let me

just uh I'm going to double down on this." Um, but yeah, and it's it's been

this." Um, but yeah, and it's it's been a mo I think like people come and look at Tiny now and like, "Wow, that's an amazing product. Like, it's so smart.

amazing product. Like, it's so smart.

Like, you've done you got this, this, and this. Like, it just like fits the

and this. Like, it just like fits the bill." And it's not because I woke up

bill." And it's not because I woke up one day and just built everything like this, right? It's because again there's

this, right? It's because again there's lots of different iterations um lots of different tweaks and enhancements. It's come on to this

enhancements. It's come on to this amazing product. Um and it's basically

amazing product. Um and it's basically because we focus just on you know what people are telling us to do. Um and then that's it. Yeah. Like Versel have gone

that's it. Yeah. Like Versel have gone and built kind of a framework with this and that like they've got NexJS and but these companies are also VC back companies right? So you got to

companies right? So you got to understand that they have a different agenda. They have a different

agenda. They have a different trajectory. Um they need to really

trajectory. Um they need to really return crazy crazy multiples to be successful. And when you're

successful. And when you're bootstrapped, you don't need to. Um as

you can, you know, iterate on that as well. And we're a small team like we're,

well. And we're a small team like we're, you know, less than, you know, five people now. And um there's only so much

people now. And um there's only so much you can do. So at the end of the day, you've really got to say no. otherwise

um you're going to yeah be overwhelmed with so many bugs and features and things to maintain and it's just not been attractive I think for me. So yeah,

I think it goes down to the core principle as well like um if you can find one, you can find 10 10

to 100. And I think

to 100. And I think for me like my north star is always like how do we find more users for what we already have?

Um and it's not usually building more features like or if it's features is it's viral features, right? or like

social features like when someone shares it um there's some benefit to link back to tiny or whatever like that. So it's

been those kind of things. Um,

I think that's that's been the main thing. Like I'm I'm very very clear on

thing. Like I'm I'm very very clear on the fact that people there's so many people in the world that 11 pound tiny, right? Um, and

that's not a product problem, that's a marketing problem, that's a distribution problem and they come and go hand in hand obviously, but really I should really just be focusing how do we get

more people to understand and oh know we exist. That's really what's going to

exist. That's really what's going to grow the business, not like building 10 hundred different features. Of course,

it's fun. Uh, but

you go like, are you building a business or you building a site, a project, right? An app kind of thing, right?

right? An app kind of thing, right?

There's there's a difference there. And

I think when you're building a company and a business as a developer, it's it's you got to understand you got to make sacrifices. I think people are not willing to make sacrifices sometimes, right? Spend a month on

sometimes, right? Spend a month on marketing versus a month on building.

Um, and that's why it never turns into a business. It just turns into this like

business. It just turns into this like cool product. Um, uh, but confuses

cool product. Um, uh, but confuses people or no one sees, you know, the light of day for it. So, you have to be honest with yourself as well, like what are you trying to build? So, what are

you trying to do here? Uh, and it's fine if you want to make like 10 different like, you know, 1k um products um, you know, you to get 10k MR from that. It's

a slightly different strategy, but it's not the milliondoll, you know, project that if you haven't the mission to get to, you won't get there that way. Um, so

I think it's about being honest as well, right? You obviously will have more fun

right? You obviously will have more fun on one days than the other. And now like my job is so different. Like there's so much I have to deal with terms of, you know, admin and accounting, but also

obviously we have a team and stuff like that. I'm not building as much. Uh, I'm

that. I'm not building as much. Uh, I'm

okay with it. I mean, I'm doing a little bit of everything. Um, but some people like it's the worst thing ever, right?

They're not coding anymore. They're not

focused. Um, they're not like doing the deep work kind of thing. Um, and that's where you have to be honest with yourself, right? Are you going to enjoy

yourself, right? Are you going to enjoy being effectively a CEO in a role or are you like a builder? Are you kind of in there? Um, and there's different ways

there? Um, and there's different ways obvious there's one person companies as well who are not doing super su successful but as you scale and as you grow there's going to be you're not

going to be be able to focus on as much um as you were in the early years. Your

job changes all the time and for me it was always about like I will do this until I don't enjoy the job anymore and then figure it out. But so far it's been

been interesting and exciting roller coaster. Um but yeah it's it's it's

coaster. Um but yeah it's it's it's problem solving every day.

So in an article that you shared on Medium you said aim to be successful not Steve Job.

Ah you found that article? Yeah that

that was a really old article. Um I

wrote this like when I was building like my first uh startup. Yeah. made all the mistakes in the book. Um

yeah, I think that incorporates a lot of things. Um

things. Um number one is people seem to think that

you know you can just copy a a playbook of somebody. Um and the reality is there

of somebody. Um and the reality is there is only one you know Mark Zuckerberg there's only one Steve Jobs and the reason they are successful and the reason the businesses that have been

built is because of a lot of characteristics um and qualities they have have translated to their product or their

service or whatever and you don't have those characteristics and and and qualities there are things you can learn from them, of course, like how do you

build simply or all this kind of stuff.

But if you just try to be like a copycat and like very like we're going to be the apple of this or this kind of stuff, you're probably you're definitely

leaving out your own qualities and personalities that you can instill in your product and your kind of um

you know vision. So I think there is something which is talked about a lot is like there's PMF product market fit but there's also founder market fit

and that means like you know what is unique about you that you can you know translate to a company or product right um and a lot of times

it's having that domain expertise or that quality quality that you know other people don't have that gives you your edge um and It's different for everybody. And I

realized over time, like for me, what I really love doing is taking complex products and simplifying it. That's my

unique um kind of advantage and what I love to do. Um and that's not easy, but it's it's making technology more accessible, helping people use that. I

mean, for other people, it's like they're really good at growth and virality, right? I'm not great at that.

virality, right? I'm not great at that.

And so when they make something, they can, you know, be very more like a social app or something that grows like, you know, thousands of users very very quickly. Um, and that's the product that

quickly. Um, and that's the product that they should make cuz, you know, they're good at that. Um, but when you try to say, you know, I'm going to build like,

you know, the iPod or like wear turtleneck and basically just be able to build like a very the most minimal product ever. you're you're always

product ever. you're you're always playing catch-up because you don't know what's gone in the process to get to there. Um and because of that, you'll

there. Um and because of that, you'll never really achieve that. Um and then the second big thing I think that's um

I've learned more recently and people don't talk about it more enough is when you're building a product, the most important thing is I think in the early days is to find a mentor who's just

ahead of you. Um, you can be inspired by some big kind of titans in the industry, but like what Steve Jobs as the problems

that Steve Jobs is going through or Mark Zuckerberg or you know Jeff Bezos is completely different to someone who's just starting out and building a product. And even if you read their

product. And even if you read their biographies and what they did in the early days, the game has changed, right? It's

completely different now than what it was like 15, 10 years ago. And so

you need to find a mentor, an idol who's just ahead of you, who's just figured out marketing, just figured out distribution, just figured out virality rather than trying to see like, you

know, think I'm launching a company.

What would Mark Zuckerberg do? Would he

go around launching in different schools and then different pilots? Because

that's what he did in the early days.

But um it's it's not what you can do now. And I think that's a very important

now. And I think that's a very important part is just finding someone who's just ahead of you through a community and I found that in London who kind of just helps you along the way and hopefully

you grow together, right? So as you as they grow you grow because you're like kind of in this kind of train trajectory um and yeah being inspired by the big

founders but not don't try to become you know them, right?

be yourself because ultimately and I realize this a lot is that a product or

company is very very highly tied to a CEO's personality and um qualities right and so you just look at every big you

know company and try to figure out the personalities behind the CEOs and there's a very big correlation between them and so you often look at a brand or product because you know it has assistance qualities and it's a very

high correlation to um you know someone who's running the company. Now it could be because they're really great at design or they're really have really good deep expertise in the domain or

they're really good at um you know supply chain management or they're good at virality.

Um and so it's you will be successful if you harness your own qualities and your own um talents because no one else has that combination. How did you do that?

that combination. How did you do that?

How did you find yourself? How do you know who is Stone?

Yeah. How do you know who are what are your qualities?

That's a journey you just go through, right? Um there's no like you just sit

right? Um there's no like you just sit there one day and you're like, "Okay, I'm that kind of thing." But I think it's leading into what you like and what you're what

attracts you and on on the entrepreneurship journey, right? And so

again like it's against it's why you shouldn't copy things that go viral or copy like other things that are on the internet right because you may not be

the right fit for that um and you know may enjoy that journey but if you focus on what you enjoy doing like if you enjoy you know building social apps or

whatever like that or if you enjoy you know deep deep problems like could be like whatever deep mind are doing or really like deep AI kind of

fundamentals. Um just keep doing that

fundamentals. Um just keep doing that more and more, right? Like just focus on what draws your attention,

what what what what gets you up in the morning. Um what really inspires you to

morning. Um what really inspires you to continue building. Um and ultimately

continue building. Um and ultimately you'll figure out like what your talents and qualities are. And people come to you and like for us they come to us and

say, "Wow, that's so simple." Um, and it's because I really enjoy simplifying complex technologies. And even if you

complex technologies. And even if you look at some of the previous products I've built, um, it's been quite simple

solutions to, you know, different products to different problems. Um, and that's been, you know, my USB and my advantage. So, yeah, it's a tough thing.

advantage. So, yeah, it's a tough thing.

I mean, you could ask people to say like, "What do you think my talents are?" Obviously,

some I think sometimes other people have better understandings of you than you yourself, but I think it's just about like pulling that thread into a direction that you really enjoy. So if

you design, if you enjoy design, if you enjoy deep engineering, if you enjoy just research into a domain, just keep going there and you'll try to figure out

like what uh what your unique kind of strength is around that.

You say you have to find a mentor like find someone who is a little bit like did the thing that you want to achieve, but he's not too far from you. So he's

not Mark Zukar just like let's say you're at 10K the guy is at 100K maybe even that's a bit far I think if you're at 10K and the guys are like 30 40K

there like as close as possible really how do you find them you say community communities I think are really big it's probably one of the most um undervalued things in in building a building a

company I mean this is the first time I build a company as part of a community and you can see how things have kind of turned out Um uh yeah, I mean there's Twitter, there's, you know, being around meetups,

being in Bali. Um I'm part of a community in London, there's Slack communities, just, you know, messaging people, DMing people. Um I mean, also the advice for trying to find a mentor,

the worst thing to do is message someone and say, "Hey, can you be my mentor?"

because I think they take a lot of uh they feel a strong um like not burden but obligation

basically to to do that if you ask them.

But if you just you know message someone and ask them some questions say hey really love some feedback on this can we jump on a call and just like continuously start like you know working

with them um they'll they'll they'll help you. I mean I think most people

help you. I mean I think most people most founders are very open to you know helping people with the right people. Um

but you have to show that you're doing stuff. A lot of people will come and say

stuff. A lot of people will come and say hey I want to build an app. I want to do this and they haven't really done anything right like make progress, learn

what you know you what what they're doing and and also just basically in instill that feedback and then come back and say hey like I

tried this this and this implement that and but it didn't actually um work or like it did work what do you think now and that kind of stuff or just catch up

on those kind of basis. So I think that's really important. Um

and it's a lonely journey like honestly like it's it's a long lonely journey but having a community is like having colleagues which are not um your

colleagues right you can go for a drink you can complain about the same issue the same problems uh but at the end of the day

they're not colleagues so they if you complain they're not demotivated right you uh you can go back to your game or whatever, then come back with a fresh mind and that kind of stuff. So, I think

that's important.

So, do you want to be my mentor?

I want to be a mentor.

Now, my my last question is like you shared not long ago in another podcast that zero to one is hard.

Yeah.

And you you would prefer right now to actually buy a company already making like 1K MR, 5K MR. Yeah.

And then grow it. And my question is what will be the first thing that you will look like look at in the company when you buy it

to actually optimize it?

Yeah. Again I think it's a lot of found again. So like for me it would be

again. So like for me it would be something that um there's baseline things like it has to have obviously some e distribution

and a product that's there but it's stuff where I know that I can improve on the design and make the UX and and the product a lot simpler and easy to use

and number two it's probably something which I'm familiar distribution wise is SEO right so there's a deep SEO play here uh that I can execute on and you

know, a really good job off um that you know, this person or this product or whatever has just given up on. I think

those are really important kind of things. Um yeah, and it's like whatever

things. Um yeah, and it's like whatever you've learned along the way, how how can you take that and just put it into this? And I think that's that's really

this? And I think that's that's really the part where a lot of value comes from. um and just you know get on the

from. um and just you know get on the grind because I think the the 1 to5 and 5 to 10 it it's not as honestly as exciting as people think right it's it's

a grind it's a serious grind um and it's a lot of like you know banging against your head like I mean last year we were growing like 3 or 4% monthto monthth and

then this year we're growing like 20 20 30% right so it's it's a grind and you're constantly trying to figure out like, you know, how do you move forward?

How do you keep going? How do you adapt to the market? Um, and and I think that's that's the main thing. So, what

can you take from your journey that you can kind of put in um like your playbook, your personal playbook, they can put in

another product. And I think that's a

another product. And I think that's a lot easier um avenue to get through. Um,

but like being an entrepreneur founder, I've realized along the way it's just problem solving. Like it's it is all about

solving. Like it's it is all about solving problems. It could be how do you get your first users or how do you debug you know this issue here all the way to like you know

there's an issue with the team. this

person's not, you know, performing well or unhappy or had you hire the right person and you're just constantly solving problems and you have to fall in love with that journey, fall in love

with that process. Um,

otherwise you'll fail because it's a it's it's a it's one of the most interesting jobs in the world, right?

Cuz no day is ever the same, no year, no month. It's always evolving. It's it's

month. It's always evolving. It's it's

it's hard. Um, but it's also really easy in certain kind of milestones you get to like obviously the first they say the first million is the hardest thing to do

and then everything's kind of easier from that. I don't know. Um, but yeah,

from that. I don't know. Um, but yeah, the first customer is probably one of the hardest things to do and then you slowly get easier and easier. It never

feels completely like straightforward but you have to get into like a problem solving mindset. You're firefighting.

solving mindset. You're firefighting.

you're always solving problems and at a certain point you're just like, "Okay, here we go again." kind of thing. Uh like there's

again." kind of thing. Uh like there's times where you just been dosed at like 1:00 in the morning and nothing kind of phases you anymore. You're just like up trying to figure out how do you mitigate this? How do you, you know, move forward

this? How do you, you know, move forward with this uh or you're trying to figure out how to hire the best person or convince them to join your team or you're trying to figure out your product roadmap. It's it's constant diverse

roadmap. It's it's constant diverse problem solving. So if you want the

problem solving. So if you want the variety of work and if you want um you enjoy just challenges um that's that's what it is. And I think you've

also got to maintain this like normalized uh mentality. So you're not like really

uh mentality. So you're not like really down when stuff is not going well. But

you're also not like super happy when something you know goes amazingly well.

And that can be good and bad as well.

But you just maintain this consistent like uh emotions basically where you seem just like Yeah. like dead inside basically because that's the best way to deal with this. Otherwise, you would

just be on a roller coaster every single day right?

Yeah.

And so yeah, it's easy not to celebrate big milestones. Uh it's easy to just

big milestones. Uh it's easy to just also get kind of I don't know get Yeah.

get down on stuff, but once you develop this thick skin and you just move forward with stuff, um I think that's where you start to really get in the

flow of things. Um and yeah, I think it's one of for me it's one of the best jobs in the world. It is the best job in the world and there's nothing better about it, but uh it's not for the

faint-hearted. uh you can't go in it

faint-hearted. uh you can't go in it just for money or you can't go in it just for you know fame or whatever. Um

I think you have to really like problem solving. You have to really like diverse

solving. You have to really like diverse problem solving and want an interesting dynamic kind of job. Um that's it and that's that's the way you're going to be

successful with it.

Well, thanks for everything else done. I

think we have a lot of golden nuggets in this episode. So,

this episode. So, thanks for doing you did a lot of good research and found articles I didn't realize is still online. So,

online. So,