ICE Militarized Enforcement. Black Erasure, Trump Doctrine & Its Consequences |#TheOtherSideOfChange

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Welcome back to the other side of change only on the Black Star Network. I am

your host Jamir Burley joined by my co-host Bria Baker. And today we are confronting a story that is both historic and heartbreakingly current.

When the US Immigration and Custom Enforcement, better known as ICE, detains, deports, and in many cases, erases people from their communities.

>> This is about more than policy. It's

about people going missing, loved ones never heard from again, family members unaware of where someone was taken, and relatives left with the question, did ICE take them? And if so, where are they now?

>> Yeah. When asking the central question like how did an agency created to enforce immigration laws become an instrument of terror? Disappearing in

the militization of our policing echoes historical um accounts of slave catchers and authoritarian regimes like the Nazis.

And we're going to dig so deep into that, hopefully be able to explore it more with our guests and remind you all that this is a conversation that is just starting. It is so complex and it's one

starting. It is so complex and it's one that um is devastatingly impacting communities across the country.

>> We are joined by the brilliant Evet.

She's a lawyer and Latina legal scholar whose work focuses on immigration, civil rights, and due process. She's also the Laura E. Gomez teaching fellow on Latinx

Laura E. Gomez teaching fellow on Latinx people and the law at UCLA School of Law. She's the daughter of Salvadorian

Law. She's the daughter of Salvadorian asylum seekers who fled the Civil War in the 80s and is the first person in her family to graduate from college. She

earned a BA in American studies with distinction from Yale College in 2014.

She interned for Justice Sila Mayayor and graduated from Stanford Law in 2018 um where she got to help prosay respondents in their deportation proceedings in southern Arizona and then following that work as a civil rights

attorney focused on border and immigration issues at the ACLU of Arizona for two and a half years. So,

there is quite literally no one more qualified to dig into this conversation with us about the need to abolish ICE and to understand the legal precedence for the moment we're in. Um, but it helps that she's also the incredible

podcast host of Radio Kaching Bona.

Thank you for being with us, Evette.

Welcome to the show.

>> Yay. Thanks for joining us.

>> Thanks, Bria. Thanks, Tamira. I'm so

honored to be here and to talk about this really important topic today.

important sensitive urgent devastating. Yes, all the things. Um,

devastating. Yes, all the things. Um,

>> yeah, >> that, you know, we've heard stories, we've seen videos of people just simply disappearing in ICE custody. Um, we know that loved ones have been trying to get in contact with their relatives that

that has that that has stalled due to the bureaucracy due to the intentional the intentionality of keeping families away from their loved ones. Can you help us understand what is the legal

mechanisms that is being used to make people untraceable um that we can all be aware of as we continue to try to protect our neighbors, protect our loved

ones?

>> Um that is a big question that has a long story. So I think one of the

big reasons that we're here right now is that the Supreme Court has disavowed its

role as a protector of immigrants rights and it did so pretty much since the beginning of immigration law. Um there's

cases in the 1800s where the Supreme Court said we don't want to involve ourselves in questions of immigration enforcement because these are quote

unquote political issues. These are

issues that implicate foreign policy.

And so this really is something for the president to deal with and Congress.

And um the path that that led us down is Congress passing very anti-immigrant laws in the late 1990s

um including IRA which created expedited removal which is a fasttrack deportation process absolutely no due process. This is

literally, you know, someone getting arrested one afternoon and then being in Mexico the next morning um type of situation. And um it's something that

situation. And um it's something that the Supreme Court has allowed to happen.

And their excuse is that it's inappropriate for the Supreme Court to intervene because these are matters that implicate foreign policy and therefore

this is something that the president and Congress should deal with. And it turns out that when you leave the fate of immigrants in Congress's hand, they do

things like create expedited removal and fund ICE um for decades and decades. So um that is I

would say the bigger picture of how we've gotten to where we're at now. But

there's there's like also another issue where I guess in line with the Supreme Court disavowing its role as a protector of

immigrants, like it's even gone so far as to say that ICE officers have immunity from misconduct suits.

So, and this is something that DHS was tweeting about recently earlier. They

were they said, "Don't worry to the ICE officers. you have immunity for whatever

officers. you have immunity for whatever happens while you're on duty. And this

is something that is an issue with police officers as well. And so I think this group of people just feels like it's above the law and it's a part of

the culture of ICE to feel like and border patrol to feel like they're above the law and in many ways they have been treated like they're above the law. Um,

so I would say that all those things together, um, now contribute to a situation where people can be kidnapped

in broad daylight and, um, kept from family members. And

what might be hard for people to understand is that in a technical sense, a lot of what's happening is legal. And

that's not to say that it's right. It's

just to point out that um our legal system is super anti-immigrant and needs to change.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think that what Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Jir.

>> Oh, I'm a millennial, but clearly forget that I'm on mute. I was just going to say I um I wanted to like agree with um the fact that we've created a culture where there's this hostility towards

immigration. Um, even though we as a

immigration. Um, even though we as a society benefit immensely from the contributions of immigrants every single day, there's just this hatred that has been fueled by the government that these

immigrants are taking your job or making you unsafe when the data doesn't support that. Um, and I think that's one of the

that. Um, and I think that's one of the things that's really frustration frustrating to watch it unfold over the last few months is just like this continued um upward stream of

divisiveness and hate and and like kind of putting people against their own community members um even though we know the the information is is quite different than the reality is quite different than what the story we've been

told.

>> Yeah. And I I to cosign that, but also to add, I appreciated you naming that a lot of what is happening is technically legal. Um I think that is a reminder

legal. Um I think that is a reminder that um this is not a moment for civility or for trying to figure out solutions within the confines of what is legal because the things that have been

legal have often been harmful as hell to people who look like those of us on this call. Um, and so the idea that the law

call. Um, and so the idea that the law will like swoop in and save us and people are just like where's the checks and balances and it's like >> making it possible like like working in

in you know in congruence with it to make it happen. And so kind of to that point to get to another moment that was technically legal but we know needed to

be upended is the you know the era of enslavement. Comparison to slave

enslavement. Comparison to slave catchers and authoritarian enforcement are not just rhetorical. they really

reflect how these state powers are operating. And from a legal perspective,

operating. And from a legal perspective, you know, all of those things were also legal. So, in your opinion, how do these

legal. So, in your opinion, how do these comparisons between ICE and, you know, police and fugitive slave catchers and things like that hold up? And how is ISIS's contemporary role shaped by this

long history of racialized policing and capture?

Yeah, I would say there's a lot of threads to pull from, you know, just in I mean because police patrols developed

out of um slave catchers and trying to regulate people's bodies for the purposes of

profit and capital. Um, and I think that is very much the purpose of the very strict immigration enforcement

system that we have now, which is what it um is one that creates illegality, quote unquote. Um, you know, the US

quote unquote. Um, you know, the US intervenes abroad and forces people to migrate up to the US and then doesn't

give them any legal pathway to a worker visa or to citizenship. And so people are stuck in this perpetual limbo of oppression and they're

forced to survive at the margins of society. Um and the for all for the

society. Um and the for all for the purposes of having this labor force that is exploitable that is vulnerable and

also that can be readily deported if let's say they start organizing for their rights.

And um I I would also add that the police is a central mechanism to immigration enforcement even though

immigration enforcement is federal and state and local law enforcement is not charged with enforcing immigration law.

The truth is that the police in collaboration with the police is necessary for ICE to deport people at

the scale that it does. Um first like um over half of the people that end up in detention end up there because of some kind of contact with the police

whether that be a traffic stop or like call themselves calling the police for help. um that is how that is a big way

help. um that is how that is a big way that people are funneled into detention and these collaborations have been occurring for a long time. Um Obama

really championed um these 287g agreements which are basically contracts where local police will agree to enforce immigration law and the way that

it's done is just blatant racial profiling.

And I think that um there's a lot of parallels too um where there's at this point it's not about

illegal or illegal or like being enslaved or being free. It's about are you a black person? Are you a brown

person? Um, and it's just a very blatant

person? Um, and it's just a very blatant racialization. And um,

racialization. And um, I I think this moment is showing us like how yes, race is a social construct, but

also it has very real material consequences. And I think this moment is

consequences. And I think this moment is showing us how the law creates race, you know, like um it means something different to be Latino right now, to be

Somali, >> really to be like a person of color in the US right now. And

>> um I think it's it's an example of of the creation of race. And um that's always been Border Patrol and ISIS's

main purpose is maintaining a predominantly white US.

>> Yeah. Which is interesting, right? When

you think about like how they identify or how they even approach people to assume that they are illegal, it's it's to your point like a racial profiling because at no point do

they care about the nearly 500,000 to a million white immigrants that are here illegally. Right. White people don't get

illegally. Right. White people don't get stopped on the side of the road and asked to show their papers, to show their identification. And to your point,

their identification. And to your point, it is a way of keeping it's getting America back to being white um regardless of who is harmed in the process and regardless of who's contributing to the culture and society

that makes America what it is and could be.

>> And also just naming that like immigrant is be is being made synonymous with >> person of color um to create that consistent othering when it's like we have white immigrants all up and through

this administration.

>> Yep. Melania, Elon Musk, like there are so many.

>> Right. Exactly. Trump, Trump Trump is the child of but like that is being like obuscated in the name of making so now you have like US citizens but because

they are bipac they are being terrorized and like you're literally seeing people like having to like shout to bystanders like I'm a citizen. I have paperwork. I

mean, you have indigenous Americans being detained, like Native Americans being detained and tribes not being able to get any sort of clarity around what's happening with those folks. So, there's

definitely this like dog whistle language that's happening to make um us question the citizenship of anyone who is black or brown or or has various

different features that make them look other. um when we're turning an eye to

other. um when we're turning an eye to those who are proudly um not from this nation but are white.

>> Yes. Native America.

>> And I will say that these um this is true in the numbers like um in detention

Mexican and Central Americans are vastly over represented in detention centers.

So their their percentage is larger than what we would expect it to be given their overall size of the undocumented population and the for white immigrants

like Canadians and Europeans like a significant portion of whom overstay their visas >> they're under reppresented in detention

centers. So it it is it's literally true

centers. So it it is it's literally true that um this it's it's not about legality or illegality. It's literally

about race and keeping America white.

>> Yeah. So, you know, for those who are watching this and who feel like this is absolutely overwhelming and I don't know what to do, you know, people are listening who want to support their families and the loved ones or their

neighbors um and challenging ISIS tactics or pursuing some sort of reform.

Do you have any legal or organizing or community level um recommendations to kind of give people hope to be able to think about how where should they be focusing their energy on because we are

seeing people come out on the street, right? We are seeing people um hide

right? We are seeing people um hide their neighbors in their homes. We are

seeing people block traffic with their cars. We are seeing people, you know, do

cars. We are seeing people, you know, do organizing. I saw I can't remember what

organizing. I saw I can't remember what city they're in, maybe it's Minneapolis, where you have bikers who are driving around town um buying up all the tamales so that um

>> those folks can stay home, but they're still making money. And I and I'm reminded that there are things that everyday Americans can do that doesn't require them to put their bodies at the front lines of of protests, right? even

though we need them to do that too.

>> For sure. There's a lot of things I would say. So, from the legal

would say. So, from the legal standpoint, I would say that habius petitions have been pretty successful in getting people out. So,

that look, one of the latest new levels of dystopia is that Trump has basically outlawed or made bond impossible for

detained immigrants to receive. And so

now people are facing the prospect of prolonged indefinite detention because of this with no opportunity for

bond. Um but people have found success

bond. Um but people have found success through habius petitions. So, uh a bond you would but petitions you ask a

federal judge for and you know I was just talking about how the judiciary hasn't stood by immigrants but I will say that there's some lower court judges who have done the right thing and

who have recognized like ICE has no authority to continue detaining this person like please let them go. And this

happened including in the case of my friend Louise who was detained um in late November horrific story where he was with his

partner and his little baby and they were flying to the Bay Area for a religious ceremony and um ICE accosted them and arrested

him and it was a shock because he's Cuban so and Cuba isn't accepting deportations.

Um, and so he had been just doing regularly scheduled ICE check-ins and without notice he was arrested and a lawyer filed a habius for him

arguing that that violated due process that if you're going to take someone's liberty away you have to at least give them the opportunity to fight back against that and they didn't give that

to him so he was released. Um, so and I have heard of a a few cases of success with habius. Um,

with habius. Um, >> so that's one legal mechanism, but we can't rely just on legal mechanisms. You know, to Bria's point earlier,

>> this is all technically legal. And so

our solutions also need to be outside of the law as well.

>> Um, and I would say, so I'm really involved in a participatory defense hub in Tucson, Arizona. Um, I would say and there's over 40 hubs around the country,

so it could be that there's one around you. I would say look it up. Um, go on

you. I would say look it up. Um, go on the participatory defense website and see if there's a group near you to join.

Participatory defense is about um having directly impacted people, whether that be through the criminal legal system or the immigration system,

>> leading the charge for overthrowing these systems. Um and I think that is the future. That is the way to go. Um

the future. That is the way to go. Um

the people who understand the urgency of the need for change are the people who are really most directly impacted and I think that's why they should lead. So I

would say join a participatory defense hub if it's around you or join any other community organizing group around you.

Um, I think there's like detention watch network has great um organizing groups.

Just find a group that's already organized and join them. Um, and then to your point like you know I understand that sometimes people feel scared of

protest or confront. I mean especially with the way that ISIS is handling protests now it is a risk to your physical safety to go out and protest.

But there's like so many ways that you can contribute like once you've already joined a community organization, you know, like people need child care, people need rides to court,

>> or people need to u like being accompanying someone to their ICE check-in, um being a legal observer, documenting,

>> um even like cooking for people, you know, making meals like the example that you gave of someone buying up all the tamales. I love this. Um I think there's

tamales. I love this. Um I think there's a lot of creative solutions we can employ. I've also been really inspired

employ. I've also been really inspired by the people who use the whistles.

>> Yes, I just saw a video of that.

>> Yes. Um and a a law professor friend of mine gave her students whistles at the end of the semester to remind them that the legal system is not the only way

that we can intervene there. It's

everyday actions we can take like this.

Um, so yeah, I would say all of that.

Um, and I would say just try and fight against the overwhelm. Um, I understand it. It's paralyzing, but we have to act.

it. It's paralyzing, but we have to act.

Um, this is the time to act. And,

>> um, you know, there's groups like waiting for people to join and they're excited to have you. So, um, if you've ever wanted to like get more involved in community organizing, but you were a

little shy or whatever, I think now is the time to do it.

>> Yeah, that's so real.

>> I love that. Thank you for offering those different ideas because I think people do need creative ways of imagining their role. And I think, you know, the the murder of Renee Good has

people concerned of how they show up um with the different risks that they can or cannot take. And so I love the like range of offerings that you added and to

kind of ground us and and um in what we're working towards given given that recent fatal shooting, given the lack of transparency around transparency around investigations, um what does

accountability look like in these sorts of enforcement actions? What should what are our protests supposed to in service towards? What are we building towards?

towards? What are we building towards?

Because sometimes we show up to a protest and we know we want to do something, but we don't know what world we're building towards. So, what needs to change um in regards to ICE in your opinion?

>> I I I'm an abolitionist and I I do think that ICE doesn't need to exist. Um

period.

>> We I guess we didn't explicitly get into the history of it, but it's pretty recent phenomenon. It was created post

recent phenomenon. It was created post 911 and so anyone who was born before that lived in a world without ICE. Um,

so but I think in terms of accountability, that's such a tough question, especially as an abolitionist because I don't think the solution is like prosecuting people either. But I

think there needs to be I would the first thought that comes to mind is like a truth and reconciliation commission, these things that happen after war, war crimes or like serious crimes against

humanity.

>> Mhm. there's like a tribunal where the the purpose of it is really to try and get to the truth of what happened. And

um I'm Salvadoran and um that was uh something that I think did help heal the post-war generation is um the the Truth

and Reconciliation Commission that put out a report and said like yes, the military was responsible for the vast majority of crimes during this time. You

know, things especially in this >> we're in this era of intense propaganda, right? And so like there's competing

right? And so like there's competing truths out there or there's like people trying to sell a false truth. And I

think a necessary part of healing is everyone getting on the same page about what really happened. And that feels like such a monumentous feat right now

because like in I feel like we've been living in like a post-truth era for a few years, you know, especially with like

things like with the internet and like deep fakes and um it's it can feel impossible to to arrive at the truth.

But I I think that uh something like that is necessary to heal these deep wounds especially considering the fact that um a good the

majority of ICE and Border Patrol agents are actually Latino. And so there needs to be like deep inter community healing.

Um, and I think I'm not sure if I've ever seen like the accountability process that can get us there yet. I

think we have to create it.

>> But there needs to be like a serious coming to the table and like people admitting that what they did was wrong.

Um, and and trying to come up with solutions to avoid this ever happening again.

>> No, that's so real. And I thank you for that answer because you're right. Um,

punishment doesn't punishment doesn't always get us to the solution of the world that we want to make. And we need to think about more

make. And we need to think about more creative ways of how we can have that healing and reconciliation, but it first has to start with us admitting to the truth of what is actually happening and has happened to um our immigrant

brothers and sisters. So, I appreciate that. Um, how can folks stay in contact

that. Um, how can folks stay in contact with you? How can folks continue to

with you? How can folks continue to learn from you and to continue to follow your work?

Well, you can listen to the Radio Chimona podcast. Um, it's on Apple,

Chimona podcast. Um, it's on Apple, Spotify, or wherever else you listen to podcasts and >> it's so good. Listen, y'all. It's so

good.

>> Bria's been a guest of mine in the past.

>> I have to definitely have to download it.

>> Um, and you can follow Radia Kachimona on Instagram, X, and Facebook. And my

email is radioachimon gmail if folks want to reach out directly.

>> Awesome. We thank you so much for joining us today and we hope you enjoy the rest of your day.

>> Thanks y'all. This was so lovely. Thanks

for having me.

>> We'll have you back. Definitely. Oh,

>> great.

>> Yes, for sure. For sure.

>> So many good gems. So many good.

I'm Britney Noble, Midwestorn H.B.CU

educated with experience in newsrooms across the country. Well, I've teamed up with Roland Martin to bring to you the breakdown. This isn't just news, it's

breakdown. This isn't just news, it's our stories, our voice, our community.

Join me for the breakdown Monday through Friday at midday only on the Blackar Network.

Today we are taking a hard look at the deeply unsettling truth of the Trump administration. And it's campaigning to

administration. And it's campaigning to whitewash America and obstruct justice all at the same time. You know, he's an overachiever.

>> Yeah. overachieving in all of the worst ways. From gutting DEI departments to

ways. From gutting DEI departments to firing black women from federal agencies and replacing them with the most unqualified loyalists, the strategy is clear. To erase black influence, to

clear. To erase black influence, to rewrite history, and to rebrand whiteness as the only acceptable identity. This is not a drill. It is an

identity. This is not a drill. It is an administrative coup. And we are in the

administrative coup. And we are in the middle of it. Bad.

>> Yeah. So, today we're talking what happens when the highest levels of government are actively working to erase us. um what does it mean when whiteness

us. um what does it mean when whiteness becomes the official policy, not just the cultural norm? And how can we continue to fight back for clarity, strategy, and with a clear vision for moving this country forward? So, we

brought a really good friend of ours, Dorian Blathers, who is here today. He

is the deputy, he is the former deputy chief of staff for operations at the EPA, the Environment Protection Agency, and has entered this role with more than a decade of experience in electoral and issue based campaigning. Dorian

previously served as the public engagement program manager for climate action campaign and credits his commitment to social and environmental justice to Howard University. Is that

the original HU or the you know and where and where he study political science he is now the CEO of goodrebel.

Welcome to the show again Dorian. We

appreciate you for joining.

>> Thank you. It's good to be back.

>> Yes. you you have some chitlin juice on your on your chin and we're gonna have to unpack this in another episode, but Dorian, it's always

a good day when you're back. Chitlin

love and all. Um, but you know, let's let's dig into this topic because on a serious note, it's been so much going on. Um, obviously you were someone who

on. Um, obviously you were someone who saw all of this coming um because the work that you were doing before Trump was reelected was to make sure that we could keep him out and bring in other faces. you've been working on the inside

faces. you've been working on the inside and outside of government. What are some of the most dangerous ways you've seen this administration try to erase black leadership?

>> You know, I I think where do we start?

Um I think the the first thing that we're kind of living through right now collectively is this just this disruption of like safety net programs,

right? We think about wick SNAP benefits

right? We think about wick SNAP benefits with the government shutdown. we think

about housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare, like this shutdown is an affront um and is really an attack on the black community. Um and what that

means is that it's put, you know, our leadership, our black leaders against the rope in fighting for uh our communities. So, uh, we've seen them

communities. So, uh, we've seen them first, um, you know, with the selection of this this cabinet, um, which is really void of any black leadership, um,

unlike the last administration which was the most diverse in history, um, but down to the policies, right? And people

are policies. So when we don't have the type of representation that's authentic um and that actually comes from our communities in these rooms uh this is

this is what we end up with and I think it's on us to you know kind of have each other's back in a season where we know we can't we can't trust or depend on the federal government to um and really you

know we haven't been to we haven't we've never been able to with this administration.

>> Yeah, that's so true. I mean, um, that's one one of the reasons why like I'm I am I I admire the trajectory of your career. You have worked on everything

career. You have worked on everything from climate to education to immigration, um, and what we've seen over the last few months, which is crazy that it's only been few months. And this

idea that so much damage can be done in such a short amount of time, but it takes decades for the type of progress to really transform the lives of black and brown and those who are at the margin. um and you know the systematic

margin. um and you know the systematic removal of black voices. We have seen this across every single institution um at the federal level as well as the defunding of the department of

education. The hyper visualization that

education. The hyper visualization that is now happening through the Trump administration of pulling brown folks up off the street. What do you think this does to our ability as on the local the

national level ability to kind of craft policy that continues to protect us?

Yeah, I think that I think that what this does is it puts what matters most in focus. Um, we you know, we talk

in focus. Um, we you know, we talk about, you know, needing to support one another in these systems in in this season, excuse me, but it's it's become

more clear to us and for me has put into focus um the very immediate needs of our community. Um, we talk about, you know,

community. Um, we talk about, you know, simple things like access to food, access to health care. Um, we're having to look around our own neighborhoods and figure out what are the ways that we can

show up for the collective when the government's not there. Um and when we think about the policies um that we have, I think that this also forces us

to be hypervigilant at the local level so that um you know people can actually feel this impact in their own communities, in their cities where we

still um you know in many places across the country do have leaders um who are having to now do double duty to both govern and serve the folks that they represent while also pushing back and

fighting against this federal government that is doing everything in their power to drain our communities of the resources that make us whole. So, I I always point to, you know, this this,

you know, famous phrase, all politics is local. Um, if we're not feeling that in

local. Um, if we're not feeling that in this season, I don't think we ever will.

So, um, we've got to look to our left and our right um, at our neighbors um, and work with our local elected officials and also realize that, you know, it goes beyond folks who have an

elected office and title. There are so many organizations and institutions, formal and informal, that are showing up for communities. We talk about food

for communities. We talk about food banks. We're looking at organizations at

banks. We're looking at organizations at the local level like NAACPs and um you know, other newer organizations that are are saying, you know what, we have we

have our backs. Um you know, when our our you know, supposedly trusted leadership doesn't. Um, so stay local, I

leadership doesn't. Um, so stay local, I think, is where we're going to find the most solutions and hopefully be able to use those models to replicate them in cities across the country where things

are working well.

>> Yes. Yes. And I think we definitely saw that with this most recent election day cycle. You know, I think people showed

cycle. You know, I think people showed up for local elections in a major major way. Um, you know, all eyes were on like

way. Um, you know, all eyes were on like mayoral and gubernatorial, but there was also a lot of hyper local positions like Georgia's public service commission,

California's ballot initiative, and many other ones, Pennsylvania Supreme Court, um, where we're going to see that local impact. Um, but what I love, so when

impact. Um, but what I love, so when Jamir was reading your bio and she talked about Goodrebel, which you recently launched, um, I love the way that you are bringing together narrative

work um, and politics and social justice. So, in your opinion, what role

justice. So, in your opinion, what role does narrative play in pushing back against eraser like the ones we're seeing right now through the Trump administration? And how can black people

administration? And how can black people reclaim our place in both the story and the structure?

>> Absolutely. I think that's a really good question and a timely one. Um especially

as we think about these elections that just took place across the country. Um

Zora Mandani, you know, is uh you know, kind of this overnight political superstar. And really what kind of

superstar. And really what kind of brought him on the map was the fact that he was speaking directly to communities in ways that they' not seen an elected

official or politician speak to them. He

was doing ads in Spanish. she was

bringing on uh you know uh other you know speakers and representatives, community leaders to speak directly to communities in their native tongue. Um

so they were seen in this campaign and in this movement in a way that they hadn't before. Um so when we talk about

hadn't before. Um so when we talk about narrative um a lot of times you know the narrative change work has to do with has

to do with telling stories over and over again so that the narrative actually sticks. Um but ensuring that we have the

sticks. Um but ensuring that we have the right messengers and voices that can authentically speak to the change that we're trying to impart. our narrative

change work and the work that we've seen um that we've done over the past few years always starts with the challenges and real issues that people face um because that's that's where we like to

center our impact um and it's giving voice directly to those communities instead of speaking for them when people feel like they're a part of a movement um they have something that they can

invest in and own for themselves and that's what creates movements that's why young people have been at the forefront of these you know movements for so long in the social space is because we're closer to the issues. We're closer to

the challenges and able to communicate those in ways that are authentic that are going to hit hard for, you know, for us.

>> Yeah. You know, it's it's so interesting you mentioned that because I think one of the things that young people are learning from past generations is that we can't expect institutions to kind of carry our stories. We have to be the

ones to tell our stories in real time and maintain those stories through through our lifetime. like how do we pass those stories in the history of our history of our lives on to future generations without expecting

institutions to do that because we've seen throughout history they will destroy our history they will remove it from the history of books destroy and ban books um and so you know it's one of the reasons why I'm constantly thinking

about like how do we prepare people for the reality of the fact that Trump is probably going to double down right on being more s like sinister in his policies and practices because he now

sees that people are waking waking up.

If they weren't woke before, they're waking up to the reality is that America is not affordable for them, that groceries are only getting higher, that jobs are being taken away. So, how do we

prepare people to be able to resist even if that resistance is telling their story over and over again so people start listening?

Yeah, I think that that I think that the preparation um starts first um by ensuring that people have the basic needs um their

their most you know basic necessities are taken care of. Um and that comes back to you know kind of the responsibility of communities to take care of one another because we can't

resist if you know food is not on the table. we can't resist if we don't have

table. we can't resist if we don't have money coming in, you know, to our checking account. Um, we've got to look

checking account. Um, we've got to look at ways that we can show up for one another. And and in this season, I keep

another. And and in this season, I keep coming back to just the necessity and and how imperative it is that, you know, we return to community um which, you

know, feels so um, you know, refreshing kind of, you know, in the wake of uh COVID, you know, and us all feeling so separated. Um, but what that looks like

separated. Um, but what that looks like in a lot of different ways, um, when it comes to telling stories, when it comes to, you know, uh, being able to even educate our communities, um, on what's

real and what isn't, um, helping them decipher that. I think it also means

decipher that. I think it also means that we have to take ownership in ways that, um, you know, that that, uh, ensure that the most honest and

authentic truths are being, uh, you know, are being shared and told. Um, I

just think about the fact that, you know, we've seen an assault on media.

Um, and not just, you know, uh, you know, black voices in mainstream media, but even how our media is distributed.

Um, we have to ask ourselves, you know, often now like, can we trust these sources? Um, it's why it's so important

sources? Um, it's why it's so important for black and brown institutions, um, be them academic institutions, be it media institutions, um, storytellers, that we

are owning our narratives and owning our work, um, and holding a very tight grip on that and not allowing it to be perverted by, you know, these external

forces that are seeking to steal, kill, and destroy at every turn. Um, I think that that's where our power is. And by

returning to community, by holding on to, you know, these narratives and these truths, our challenges and the work and keeping it in our community, we have an

opportunity to, you know, fight back um at every turn. And we've been here before. I know folks hear that all the

before. I know folks hear that all the time. Um but we've also got to be

time. Um but we've also got to be students of history and knowing that the black community historically has taken care of itself. Um and this season is no different.

>> Love it. Love it. Love it.

>> You Yeah, I could listen to you talk all day.

>> Don't tell him that. It's gonna boost his ego.

>> Listen, listen. I'm serious.

>> I had time today, too. So,

>> you know, because I I really do feel like you you make it plain in such a beautiful way. Um, and you've you had

beautiful way. Um, and you've you had such unique experiences across the board that you like merge it all together in a way that feels really relevant and timely and like inspiring because this is an episode that could feel really

depressing. is like, man, they're

depressing. is like, man, they're stripping us of so much, but we also have agency and we also have means of controlling our own story and and also replacing these people who we see doing

this. So, where can the people find you

this. So, where can the people find you and stay connected to you personally and then your work?

>> Absolutely. You can follow me on Instagram, threads, and Twitter, Dorian Paul. That's Dorian with an e, not a a.

Paul. That's Dorian with an e, not a a.

Um, and you can also follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn at goodrebel.co.

check us out, follow the good work that uh all the things.

>> We appreciate um you know, anybody that wants to lock in with us and get involved uh as we continue to do the work >> and hopefully you know I I hope that this moment really indicates that folks

need to get away from listening to Ezra Klein of the world and listen to like Dorian, right? like we need to be better

Dorian, right? like we need to be better and do better and it means listening to people who look like the actual electorate who have done the work and not just talking about it in theory.

>> That's right. That's right.

>> On the inside, the outside and the other side.

>> Yes.

That was good.

>> We'll just take that.

>> Go ahead. Go ahead.

>> We love us.

>> Yeah. Thanks for joining us.

Heat. Heat. N.