In conversation: OpenAI's Sam Altman and LoveFrom's Jony Ive with Laurene Powell Jobs | #ECDemoDay

[music] Hi.

>> Hi.

>> Hello.

>> All right. Thank you all for your patience. Um we're getting to the end of

patience. Um we're getting to the end of demo day, but it's just been an extraordinary day and this I'm sure will be quite memorable as well.

So as as I was thinking about this conversation, I was reflecting on the fact that sometimes when two generational thinkers meet, something

very special can happen. And it's not necessarily a product is formed or a plan, but it's an alignment of

intention. And it's and it's meeting

intention. And it's and it's meeting someone who you feel a deep connection to and sometimes almost

a sibling relationship with. And I think that's how it went with Johnny and Sam when they met two years ago. They found

that they were thinking about and asking the same questions about design and about intelligence and about the role

that technology plays in human life and should play in human life. And their

subsequent collaboration, a company called IO, emerged from their shared curiosity and their deeply held sense of

purpose. And together they've built an

purpose. And together they've built an extraordinary company of engineers and designers and thinkers, people who are

merging hardware and software and intelligence in entirely new ways.

And something really important, they chose to do it here in San Francisco, a city that has always been [applause] Yes.

a city that I like to think is both a laboratory and a shop floor of human possibility.

So Johnny has said that everything he's learned in his life has brought him to this moment and Sam calls this moment one of the greatest technological

revolutions of our lifetimes. So wow,

those are crazy heady statements and it's our good fortune to hear from them directly. So we will just launch in.

directly. So we will just launch in.

Welcome Johnny and Sam. Thanks for

coming. Um [applause]

so I want I want to start with with that point about San Francisco.

Why do you think San Francisco is the place where things that are brand new to the world are created? We it there's

something about this place about the light and the topography and the eccentricities that allow for some freedom of thought and creativity. But

what do you both think about that? I I

think something that we all three have in common is we're not from this place.

We we weren't born here, but we chose we came here and we chose to stay here. U

and we're not alone. that a lot of people are attracted to this place for very specific reasons. So talk a little bit about why Love from OpenAI and IO

were all started here.

Well, I I first um I first came here in ' 89 and um I was 21 and it was the

first time I'd been on an airplane and um I I was so I was struck on lots of levels, but one of them was just

emotionally in in my tummy. It it just seemed um it was one it was very unusual

Um it seemed improbable, you know, a ridiculous place to try and build. I

mean, given the topography um the extraordinary proximity to >> build anything, >> let alone Yeah.

>> But I I um and then we moved here in 92 and so in so many ways, you know, I spent my formative >> um you know, the last 30 plus years

here. Um, and one I I feel so mindful

here. Um, and one I I feel so mindful and so aware that I owe the city a huge huge debt of gratitude. You know, I've

I'm I'm conscious about some of the things I've learned and I know there's an awful lot that I'm not even aware of in ways in which I've benefited. Um, but

I love the city. I mean, I I really really love the city. But do you think it allows you to think in ways that you wouldn't think otherwise? Do you think

that it it aids the creativity?

>> Yeah, I I think the fact that it it's it's, you know, I grew up in London, which was so huge. I like that the peninsula makes, you know, contains growth.

>> And so there's a density and a diversity that is, I think, um, I think, fabulously enabling for, um, improbable

and unplanned meetings and and collaborations.

I I just learned recently the first I was born in the Midwest and grew up there and I just learned recently the first place I ever came was San Francisco when I was like a three-month old baby. My mom brought me on a trip

old baby. My mom brought me on a trip here. I never knew that before but I

here. I never knew that before but I didn't come again till I was 17 and I was visiting colleges and I thought it was the coolest best place ever instantly.

>> Yeah. I I have all of these like theories about what makes SF SF. The the obvious takeaway is it is

SF. The the obvious takeaway is it is the freest most creative weirdest culture of anywhere and that

has led to amazing things. Um I don't I don't think it's an accident that you get like the creation of Burning Man and the creation of AI in the same city. In

fact, I think it'd be strange if they like it's that that same cultural force is what drives all of this. And then

there's the question of like why did the cultural force happen here? Like why is this the place? Um clearly the natural beauty of the city and the surroundings

attracted people um that felt a certain way about the world. I I also I grew up in a culture where the map was very much read from east to west and

there was this thing that San Francisco was like the end of the the extreme end of the frontier or something and I felt and I think other people felt like that

was kind of where if you were still chasing some sense of like newness and possibility in frontier where you go um I think the weather here really matters.

This sounds ridiculous to say, but I think >> Yeah, people don't usually brag on that.

[laughter] >> What?

>> People aren't usually bragging about the weather.

>> I think there is something about like cold crisp weather that is helpful to my creative process and

helpful to thinking. I notice

>> Yeah.

>> Yay.

>> [laughter] >> I notice every time I come back from somewhere like hot and humid >> and I immediately land in San Francisco and I feel different and I'm thinking more clearly and I'm more expansively and

>> Oh, that is interesting. Sam,

>> I people rag on the weather but like >> no, I got you.

>> It is maybe a little worse for the social life of a city. Like maybe warm nights are really nice for people spilling out in the streets and staying out late and running into each other.

And there are definitely those nights in the summer where you're like bundled up against the wind and you're like, "Oh, I wish I live somewhere else." But I I think it is just enormously powerful. Um

certainly the small size of the city I think is huge. Like it does feel like when you are walking every few blocks you're turning the corner into some other very different section of the

city. And the people that choose to live

city. And the people that choose to live here, they kind of know what San Francisco is like at this point. And so it's become this, you know, maybe it got maybe we

should like talk about why the whole 60s thing happened here, but once it happened, that was a real gravity wall.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that it shaped the zeitgeist, but there's also something about the concentration of talent and curiosity that allows for new ideas to

form. And it it's one of those things

form. And it it's one of those things that happens. It's almost ineffable and

that happens. It's almost ineffable and you understand it better in hindsight like Florence was in the 15th century.

>> The commitment to freedom is such a big deal and like supporting people in their weirdness. You can't Everyone talks

weirdness. You can't Everyone talks about well I want this kind of freedom or that one. But I think freedom is freedom and you either accept the whole thing and all of its weirdness or you don't. People talk about this in

don't. People talk about this in Florence too like there was just a lot that got tolerated.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I agree. So you guys you guys had a meeting of the hearts and minds when you met, but it it's quite a

big deal then to come together and form a company and have have a sense of the journey that was going to unfold. But

there's something that I want to share with everyone which is this process of ideiation that that you go through and your team went through and and your team

went through whereby um you didn't start by thinking about what is what is a product that will be native to AI. You

you actually put that aside and you explored other themes like the nature of relationships of humans to nature,

humans to animals, humans to humans. You

explored the nature of intelligence. You

explored the nature of tools, how humans have used tools over the world, um values and human rights. It was this really amazing series, almost academic

series of explorations that you had before you allowed anyone to even think about what a new product might look and feel like. Can you talk

more about that, Johnny? Why do you start that way and how does it actually yield a product at the end?

I I I think it's I mean it's funny the similarities with what Bob and and Jr were saying about >> I think if you have a clear sense of you

know you have a predetermined goal >> that just leaves me feeling feeling terribly disappointed and and dead because if you do you've got no clue about all the things that you've just

missed.

>> You don't even know that you've missed them if you're so focused on on on an end goal. And so I I think I mean

end goal. And so I I think I mean obviously a foundation for any creative practice is this sort of insatiable curiosity.

And I I think that's one of the things that in you know immediately I think Sam and I clicked because I think we were I

think more defined by this desire to learn and explore than be right. And so

I think that's what it and and that means that you I mean it's funny. I

think a lot of very healthy relationships are characterized by you not saying very much >> you know because you're you're actually interested to hear what somebody else

has got to say which means you're listening. Um, and there are I don't

listening. Um, and there are I don't know, you know, how long silent pauses can be um

sort of terribly embarrassing socially or actually fabulously, you know, a characteristic of incredible security um

when you're with with somebody and you're just thinking. Um, so yeah, I I I think those those were different manifestations of us just wanting to

learn and sort of feel feel out what the what the opportunities were. But it was that lovely combination which I'm sure many of you are very familiar with which

is you know that that's completely intuitive, really fragile, elusive, it's very tentative and then with some

robust structure. Um and that helps you

robust structure. Um and that helps you know we have a really rigorous research practice I think.

>> And Sam did your team participate in these learning sessions?

>> Yeah, we we came to to Johnny and his team and said, "Hey, we we have this ridiculous new piece of technology like this this huge

seemingly huge thing of computers are smart now. They they can think and they

smart now. They they can think and they can understand. They couldn't do that

can understand. They couldn't do that before." And we don't know what that

before." And we don't know what that means, but we know that we are all living in the constraints of this same kind of computer we've been using for a

long time. And that that feels totally

long time. And that that feels totally wrong and limiting. And we don't know how to figure out the right answer. But

uh we think the world deserves better stuff. And we we'd love to see if

stuff. And we we'd love to see if there's a way we can spend some time together and figure it out. and Johnny

brought us along on this journey that seemed certainly like nothing we had ever done before. It was not the way we worked,

before. It was not the way we worked, but we did there is more in common with the sort of research spirit and the designer spirit than I ever thought.

>> And so it felt I think comfortable quickly to both sides.

>> And their team had a lot of thoughts that we never would have had. Hopefully ours had a few that they wouldn't have had. and

and we just started talking about, you know, what what does it mean that this thing is going to be able to know everything you've ever thought about, read, said? What does it mean

that this is going to be a sort of active participant? What does it mean

active participant? What does it mean that this is going to computers can now be proactive in a not annoying way in like a really intelligent way? Um, and

they couldn't before. and we started talking and doing these research sessions uh about the things we were speaking about and Johnny and I were actually just

reflecting backstage. We we had a

reflecting backstage. We we had a meeting after some of these sessions, the two of us one weekend, and we were talking about kind of some of the learnings of that research and these

ideas that felt very crazy at the time and that they weren't all going to come together about what it would mean to have a computer that was like that was

built around this new affordance that was just didn't exist before. And

finally, we have the first prototypes. I

can't believe how jaw-droppingly good the work is and how exciting it is, but but also now getting to have like the benefit of hindsight and looking at

the progress, the process backwards, how much it's all in there >> and how it wouldn't have worked any other way.

>> Yeah.

>> And then out of the end of it comes this extraordinary thing that all of the pieces >> and no one but us and the teams will ever know about all of the like craziness that went into that, but I

think they'll still feel it somehow.

there there's a I I think there's especially in large companies you know that value predictability um leaders get really uncomfortable with

ambiguity and and the creative process is unpredictable and the what was lovely these these months and months and months these early times

when we we didn't have a sense of are we going to make anything who knows or are we going to make a family of products Um but to relish that time of not

knowing >> and not feeling in any way this is a necessary evil to endure so you can eventually make a product. Um and that

was I I love that part of the process. I

also, you know, the the one thing is when you don't know what you're doing, the one thing that you do know as you're gently exploring and you have an idea, the one thing that is very clear are all

the problems and all the reasons why it shouldn't exist.

So, so it's really funny. It's all the reasons not to do it are very obvious and clear and it's this sort of huge leap of intuitive faith that um that you

I mean I really struggle and get frustrated with my inability to articulate all of that that is tentative and fragile um but I while that's

uncomfortable I I've come to really love that place and now as as things start to reveal themselves Um, actually that's

better than the other one. Yeah.

>> John Johnny and his team make these books as they're going through the design process would be a book like you know well it' be like 10 books each this thick about like the history of shapes or the design [laughter] of cameras or

how relationships evolve over time. And

so you have these like stacks of books >> like this tall many many books and each book is so beautifully and thoughtfully done. You're like this will have nothing

done. You're like this will have nothing to do with the product. There's no way.

[laughter] >> I actually hope you do publish the book someday because to see the thread through all of that >> come to the threads come together

>> in a way that looking forward you just you cannot imagine that it's going to happen. Isn't that?

happen. Isn't that?

>> And then it all snaps into place. And

like one day Johnny calls and says, "Hey, we have a thing to show you."

>> And then when you have this thing, this something that's absolutely brand new to the world and and people people see it and use it, it seems inevitable. It

seems like, oh, well, of course, this is this is what it is, and I shall now be using it. I mean, you've you've designed

using it. I mean, you've you've designed products that billions of people use.

So, so there's something about this process that allows you to to have filter after filter after filter of the wrong idea.

>> Yeah. I

>> But it's also pretty special to have a partner who's patient with the process and and is is totally comfortable with perhaps not having anything at the end

of a few years.

>> It it's um yeah, it it the Yeah. and shocked by the process. I mean

Yeah. and shocked by the process. I mean

I mean it I love it. I really

>> Okay. But um um I know everyone's here is itching for me to ask this question.

So what after all this time? Okay. What

can you tell us that you're working on?

What can you tell us about because there is a thing um what can you tell us about the thing that [laughter]

>> maybe in a year or two it will now be this inevitable obvious product or thing.

>> Well the the the reason >> Sam >> I'm leaving >> Yeah. You have more luck with Sam than

>> Yeah. You have more luck with Sam than me.

>> I know. Um, the reason I I I fell in love with Sam was as I so I actually contacted Sam, which I' I've

not done before, and I was very shy. The

researchers at OpenAI are terrifying.

Um, really intimidating until you get to realize that they are way more curious, way more creative. Um and and the

research team are absolutely spectacular and the design team, you know, our teams have gelled in a really conspicuous way.

Um but what was lovely was what I went to with Sam wasn't wasn't a product, but it was a tentative thesis. It was an

idea about it was a thought about the nature of of objects and our interface and it was very general. Um and we didn't know whether that would lead to a

product.

>> Do you remember what that thought was?

>> Of course I do.

>> Oh, can you share [laughter] >> it? It was to do with um No, I can't

>> it? It was to do with um No, I can't share it.

No.

Sam, what can you tell us about what you're building? [laughter]

you're building? [laughter] Uh, >> I'm like an easier person to crack, so I'm gonna try to Johnny is great at giving an answer. I I get very excited and want to talk about it. Uh,

>> I will say the vibe that okay, I would hope we do.

>> Um, one of the things that I think has gone wrong with modern technology, and by the way, a lot has gone right. I

think the iPhone is like thus far the crowning achievement of >> consumer products. It's an amazing thing. But one of the things that has

thing. But one of the things that has gone wrong is when I use current devices or most applications,

>> I feel like I am walking through Time Square in New York >> and constantly just dealing with all the little indignities along the way.

Flashing lights in my face, attention going here, people bumping into me, like noises going off.

>> And it's an unsettling thing, you know? It's like bright stuff flashing, notifications coming, you know, like dopamine chasing here and there and like short attention spans.

>> And >> I understand how we got here, but I don't like I don't think it's making any of our lives like peaceful and calm and just letting us focus on other stuff.

And an early thing we talked about with the devices we hope to build is if you have this really smart AI that you trust to do things for you over long periods

of time, filter things out, be able to be contextually aware of when it should not only not really bother you, but when it should like present information to you or ask for your input or not, and

you trust it over time, and it does have just this incredible contextual awareness of your whole life, you can then go for a vibe that is not like, you know, walking through time square and getting bumped into and having all this

stuff compete for your attention, but like sitting in the most beautiful cabin by a lake and in the mountains and sort of just enjoying the peace and calm.

>> And I think this actually just isn't possible in the preai world of technology. Um, I think this isn't

technology. Um, I think this isn't possible with the current kinds of devices that we have. Um, but I hope we build devices that can offer you back

some of that spirit.

>> Yeah. Lovely. Um,

so, so these devices that will be built at some point, when do you think people will be able to see them?

>> Is I mean, we we >> within five years.

>> Oh, much sooner than that.

>> Okay.

>> No, five years. um

>> two >> I I I think I think even less than that.

>> So um >> I think going just to something Sam was saying which is I I've like I mean I know that you and I love or we're very

aware of what appears inevitable isn't.

>> Um but that sense of inevitability often speaks to something that is lovingly and wellconsidered.

And I can't bear products that are like a dog wagging their tail in your face or products that are so proud that they

solved a complicated problem they want to remind you of how hard it was. Um, I

love solutions that teeter on appearing almost naive >> in their simplicity and their And I also love um incredibly intelligent,

sophisticated products that you want to touch and you feel no intimidation and you want to use almost carelessly that you'll use them

almost without thought.

>> That they're they're just tools. We're

the important ones in this and um and I think we we there when people say it when see it they say that's it.

>> Yeah they will so simple it's so but then it just does as we were talking about AI can do so much >> for you that so much can fall away and the degree to which Johnny is like chipped away at every little thing that

this doesn't need to do or doesn't need to be in there is remarkable. I remember

he said once early on like we'll know we have the design right when I don't remember you said you want to like lick it or take a bite out of it or something like that.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

>> Yeah.

>> Um >> and there was an earlier prototype that we were like quite excited about but I did not have any feeling of like I want to pick up that thing and take a bite out of it.

>> And then finally we got there all of a sudden >> and then >> then what happened? And I did I didn't actually. Um [laughter]

actually. Um [laughter] >> but there's something about when design gets like so simple and beautiful.

>> Yeah.

>> And like playful for lack of a better word.

>> Yes.

>> That's something that's I mean I'm sure you we'd all feel the same. I mean

there's not a lot of humor in the products that um are being uh designed and made um particularly in this area.

And I I I really sense very clearly there is a huge desire for us not to take ourselves quite so seriously even

though these are serious times.

>> And um and I I I feel the same quickening of my heart that I felt when I moved here in 92. and um and it's been

so infectious I think you know between Love from IO and Open AI um yeah it it

it's there's there's a um a conspicuous um moment I momentum as as a creative momentum is >> I mean you really notice it when it's not there.

>> Yes. But

before we knew anything about the products we were going to build, I remember very early meeting, Johnny said, "We are going to make people smile. We're going to make people feel

smile. We're going to make people feel joy. Whatever the product does, it has

joy. Whatever the product does, it has to do that." And I was like, "Yeah, yeah, whatever, Johnny." Like, people just want to be efficient. It's fine.

Um, [laughter] obvious pushed on that. And I didn't realize until we got these things started to come together how much that just doesn't exist in the current

set of >> tech companies. Yeah.

>> And how lovely it is.

>> Yeah.

>> To have some whimsy back.

>> Yeah. And around AI, there's a lot of doom and gloom. There's a lot of doomsday scenario. And of course, there

doomsday scenario. And of course, there are a lot of negative unintended consequences of social media and some other technologies. Uh, so that that

other technologies. Uh, so that that part is real, but bringing back the joy and the discovery will be delightful if you guys can pull that off. So, before

we wrap up though, I have a few quickfire questions for you. You don't know what I'm about to ask, but it'll be good.

Okay Johnny a few for each of you. Johnny, what's

one thing you use daily that you think is poorly designed?

>> I just about everything. Ah, [laughter]

>> I know.

>> From my pencil to door handles. No, I

mean, yeah, I just don't have very good ones. But [laughter] you should have

ones. But [laughter] you should have asked it the other way. Like, is there something >> I was going to say it the other way?

Didn't know that you were going to say everything. Okay. Um, what's what's one

everything. Okay. Um, what's what's one object that most people don't realize is brilliantly designed that gives you joy?

God, that's I'm sorry, isn't it?

>> Yeah, that's hard.

>> Um >> Uh >> Um >> What's one object?

>> A spoon.

>> A spoon.

>> Yeah, spoon's a good one.

[laughter] >> Yeah. They're a means to an end, aren't

>> Yeah. They're a means to an end, aren't they? [laughter]

they? [laughter] >> Yeah. Okay. Um,

>> Yeah. Okay. Um,

other than a spoon, >> spoon, >> what's one product, what's one product that you wished you'd designed?

>> The zip.

>> You mean a zipper?

>> Yeah, zipper.

>> Oh, >> is that an English word? [laughter]

>> A zipper.

>> Oh, a zipper.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, excellent. Okay, good one. All

right. Um, I'm going to Sam. All right,

Sam. Actually, [laughter] no. I've got

another one. A pocket. Did you know someone invented a pocket?

>> Did they?

>> So, I always thought if you had pants or trousers, where I come from, that you got pockets for free.

>> Mhm.

>> But you didn't. They never used. And

then somebody invented something and they called it a pocket. And it's where you would put a watch, you know, like um >> Yeah. Pocket watch.

>> Yeah. Pocket watch.

>> Pocket watch.

>> Yeah.

>> Isn't it fantastic? That's wonderful.

>> What did you do today? I did a pocket >> [laughter] >> Well, that changed a lot of people's lives.

>> I know many people very unhappy if I don't have a pocket. That's true. Um,

Johnny, one last one. What's one

material you've always wanted to work with, but haven't had the chance yet?

>> I've only a little bit, but ceramic.

Like to do I love ceramic.

>> Describe how you've used ceramic. I'

I've used it for very sort of functional reasons like as an insulator or you know it's RF transparent but it's very hard.

Yeah.

>> But not for >> I I love materials that are inherently modest and not expensive and they assume

value by the ingenuity of of the craft process. And so they're given value by

process. And so they're given value by by people um in how they're transformed.

So yeah, I I mean that's why I love glass. I mean sand and you know what

glass. I mean sand and you know what glass can become.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Lovely. Um okay, Sam, what's a product you use often and just love?

>> I'll say the iPhone. I with with my earlier complaints aside, um I it is the most before and after moment

product of my life.

Okay, Sam, what's a historical moment you return to for perspective? You have

a lot on your shoulders. I imagine you have to have some mental touchstones to put things into perspective.

>> Everyone always is like a they're like, "Oh, do you think about like the Trinity test of the atomic bomb or something?" And actually, I almost

or something?" And actually, I almost never do. The moment that I would most

never do. The moment that I would most that I think about that I thought about before we kind of made our big discoveries and that I thought about after the historical

moment that is most similar that I wish I was in the room for um that I have taken the most going forward uh spirit

from is the discovery of the transistor.

>> The transistor is my favorite analogy for what AI is like. It's like it's like discovering a new property of physics.

People kind of knew what they were looking for, but it was kind of accidental. This the vibes of the people

accidental. This the vibes of the people that made that discovery were very similar to some early OpenAI people from what I've been able to read.

the the scaling process of the transistor over time versus the way LLM have scaled the economic place that it had where the transistor companies themselves with a small number of exceptions never got that big but they

kind of >> seeped throughout the entire economy and lifted everything up and we don't think about this as a transistor company or that but there's they're all over everything right >> it was this fundamental enabling

building block and so that's kind of the moment I think about >> I could see why because it allowed for a whole new world to be built built upon it.

Wow. Thank you both so very much for coming here and talking with us.

[applause] >> Thank you.

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