Inside Clay’s Wild GTM Journey | Varun Anand, Co-founder @ Clay | Granola Firesides

We have no agenda actually. So I

actually we don't know what's going to happen here. So we I my my prompt to

happen here. So we I my my prompt to Chris five minutes ago was let's make it as unhinged as possible. So that's the that's the energy we're going for.

>> And that's when I started sweating cuz I'm not super unhinged. So if any of you are are unhinged.

>> So if any of you have more unhinged things you want to do um just bring it up.

>> Um I'm going to start with like the basics and a little bit of history and then >> that doesn't sound very unhinged.

>> No no no no. But then we we'll build it up. We'll build it up. So, okay. First

up. We'll build it up. So, okay. First

of all, Clay, describe what Clay does in >> I have a new pitch. As of yesterday, I have a new pitch. So, we can we can try this out. I'm always having new I don't

this out. I'm always having new I don't know how how often you have new pitches for granola, but this is a new pitch.

Okay, so the new pitch is uh is okay, >> everyone in go to market is just trying to do something very simple, which is you have a TAM and you have your existing customers and you're just trying to find the delta. That's it.

>> Okay.

>> Uh but there's only a couple ways you can find the delta between your existing customers and your TAM. You can convert inbound, of which Granola has a lot. You

can go outbound or you can take your existing customers and expand them.

That's it.

>> And so I'm trying to simplify this for you. And so then how do we help? What do

you. And so then how do we help? What do

we do now? What we do is we help you build audiences. We help you get lots of

build audiences. We help you get lots of thirdparty data. We aggregate 150

thirdparty data. We aggregate 150 different vendors. We use AI to help

different vendors. We use AI to help improve that and find new data points. A

fun data point that I've been sharing recently is is Waste Management is one of our customers and the trash company.

And they don't actually even know who their customers are because they sell through subsidiaries. And so, um, they

through subsidiaries. And so, um, they use Clay to find satellite images through Google Maps and use AI to analyze those and look at photos of the of the, um, of the the trash cans

outside of people's homes and look at what colors those trash cans are because then they'll know who's who's what company they're using, you know. So, we

help you get this great data. We help

you bring your own data as well in, first-party data, and then you can do cool stuff on top. You can do personalized ads. You can do outbound

personalized ads. You can do outbound that's automated. You can build

that's automated. You can build personalized landing pages, whatever.

Then what we're going to start doing is we're going to help you and so that that's how you bring your growth ideas and bring them to reality. And then what we're going to start doing over time is like how do you take AI to understand who your best customers are, find out

more of them, how do you um how do you build interface for reps that so they can kind of experiment and do things um and ultimately like go to market engineers will be like experimenting and implementing executing these ideas and then people will be experimenting on

top.

>> Okay. Okay. So, we have this thing called the pub test in the UK and it's basically if some dude is drinking a beer at a pub and he's like, "Hey, what's what's clay?" Yes.

>> What's the one sentence answer? Like,

what's what's that?

>> We help you bring your growth ideas and bring them to reality. That's it.

>> Okay. Okay. Help you bring your What do you think the guy in the pub would say, though?

>> What would he say? Okay. Well, I'm I'd be like, "Okay, give me your growth idea, you know, and let's bring it to reality." We could do it right now. So,

reality." We could do it right now. So,

if someone has a growth idea, we could just bring it to like you the guy in a pub. Yeah. Let's the guy, let's say he

pub. Yeah. Let's the guy, let's say he owns the pub, you know. Um, and and >> I don't think the guy in the pub test owns the pub.

>> Okay, fine.

>> But keep going. Keep going.

>> Okay. Well, he could do whatever. You

know, he could he could be a plumber and he wants customers. He could, though, we're making a lot of assumptions about the plumber, about the about the guy in the pub. And you're making actually

the pub. And you're making actually fairly uh you're making serious socioeconomic assumptions about the about the the guy in the pub, by the way, which, you know, I actually thought I was being fairly generous by saying he owns a pub. I was economic opportunity,

you know. So, let's just And so, okay.

you know. So, let's just And so, okay.

So anyways, this is the the capitalist in me versus the European kind of uh energy.

>> I had to pull it up and sit on it. So I

think that's the move.

>> Okay. All right. We're going to do this.

>> Ursula, I'm hot. So I don't know if we can open another window. Um, thank you.

>> That's because the unhinged energy is getting higher.

>> It's going to get we haven't even started >> getting higher. Okay. So like yeah bas and that by the way this is actually the ultimate vision one of the ultimate visions of clay which is like the guy in

the pub if he has ambitions to grow maybe the business or even as a human he should think of clay the same way you order you want to get you want to go somewhere you think of Uber as the way to go do that you know um and so for the

guy in the pub who owns a bar he's like I need to I need to get customers and how am I going to get customers well um >> I go to click >> yeah and let's think about that you know this is not a tradition use case. And I

actually haven't considered this use case before, so I'm going to I'm going to riff with you for a moment here. Um,

so the guy in the pub, well, pubs don't do outbound, and pubs uh mostly just do one of two things. They will either convert their inbound and sometimes they they have and they have a capacity,

right, because it's a constrained space.

Or they can take their existing customers and get them more drunk more often, right? That's really your only

often, right? That's really your only options. And so how can you use clay to

options. And so how can you use clay to do that? Well, um,

do that? Well, um, you could I mean, you could you could you could what you could do is when people come into the pub, you should we should try to figure out who they are, right? So, what you could do, again, I'm

right? So, what you could do, again, I'm thinking out loud here, is you could maybe there's a camera in the pub. This

is now going to violate all sorts of There's all sorts of things called GDPR.

I know. I'm just trying to say it's going to violate all sorts of GDPR things, but you could you could have the video recording. You could use Gemini on

video recording. You could use Gemini on top of the the video recording. you

could kind of figure out who they are and then you could be like and then and then and then based on their images we could we could find their LinkedIn profiles and then we could find their work emails and then we could be like hey which of them work at good companies

like Monzo or Revolute or Granola or whatever and then let's email the events manager at the place to be like hey your employees come to this pub often why don't you rent out the pub for your for your next work event you know so how do you convert your

>> and what would you use clay for out of that whole thing >> that whole thing you could use in clay to end to end what I just described you could use in clay that's madness like cursor as an example has a has the same use case. Just to be clear, we are now

use case. Just to be clear, we are now talking about a pub and cursor at the same using the same use case. So cursor,

which you guys you used to do this use case, too, by the way. Um Shay uh and and the guy I just met, uh you guys should do this, but basically it's like you have all these free users and and you need to figure out where they work, right? And and then and so you can sell

right? And and then and so you can sell to them. You're hiring this new head of

to them. You're hiring this new head of sales. This is how you build pipeline

sales. This is how you build pipeline for that head of sales before they get started, right? And so you have all

started, right? And so you have all these free users all over the world.

Let's convert the free users into figure out where they work. And then if they work at a big enough company and and if they're if they're tech forward or whatever, let's qualify them accordingly and then let's like get that as pipeline so that your new head of sales has a

list of accounts to go for. That's what

cursor does and that's what you guys should do too.

>> All right.

>> Yeah. Qu Okay, there's a question.

>> You said >> Yeah, go for it.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> So, you help smart people find clever ways to generate leads for their business.

>> Yeah. But ideally, I mean, it's not that you have to be smart. I think you have to be creative and we we will try to unleash your creativity and and we want to actually you don't have to be smart to get started. We want to make the

floor I I I I make this analogy to video games. I want it to feel like Zelda. I

games. I want it to feel like Zelda. I

want to feel like World of Warcraft where anyone can get started. Uh but

it's like any other any other sport, any other thing you're doing like in investing or whatever. Only the the most creative, the best, whatever. They're

the ones who get the alpha. They're the

ones who win. And so and it's a and growth is like a video game. It's it's

not something you can play for the rest of your life. Okay. I'm I'm going to take us back a little bit. So, uh Clay's >> eight years old.

>> Yes.

>> Is that right?

>> Yeah.

>> Three something billion valuation your last round. How many people? Like 200.

last round. How many people? Like 200.

>> Uh 240, I think. Now

>> 240. I took the last photo from your fundraising announcement. Put in chatbt

fundraising announcement. Put in chatbt and asked how many people were in there.

So like >> I'm a little bit behind on times. Um

>> it didn't start out. It started as a much more general tool. Right.

>> Right. Like how

>> very horizontal >> very horizontal. Yeah.

>> Can you tell me a little bit about that kind of narrowing? I don't know if it's a pivot or a narrowing that happened and like >> it was a narrowing narrowing. What was

the what were the signals like what >> the signals people were were people were using clay for go to market things right and so at the time >> what did it do at the time?

>> At the time it was a spreadsheet and actually like even before that there were a lot of different iterations that were unrelated to a spreadsheet. There's

a lot of like commitments to different ideas but all the ideas were equally horizontal. In this case, um this the

horizontal. In this case, um this the original mission of the company was how do you bring the power of programming to an order of magnitude more people and the spreadsheet was ultimately decided as like a as a vehicle for that because

the spreadsheet is actually the original no code tool, right? And so uh and then we were like what if the spreadsheet could be connected to the internet, you know, and you connect it to APIs and and it just so happened that we were like

noticing people in sales and whatever use the spreadsheet to do things like that's just how they were doing it and that's kind of what that was the most obvious kind of um piece. But by the way, even if you look at products Zapier

or Gum Loop or Naden or whatever, go to market is actually usually the the top use case in all of those. Uh but they've all kind of stayed horizontal, >> right? And we actually even winnowed it

>> right? And we actually even winnowed it further to data enrichment for uh cold email marketing agencies which was extremely neat.

>> That's what you Okay. So you were you were broad and then and so uh what was it? It was like what 2020 2019 what were

it? It was like what 2020 2019 what were we talking about time?

>> This was uh this was 2021 early 2020. So

>> late 2021 >> but before that it was more like the air table retool. Was that kind of the space

table retool. Was that kind of the space you were playing in? Yeah. The no code.

Then you noticed that you're the people who are using your product to the the fullest extent were go to market folks.

>> Yes. But there was resistance to commit to that because of the narrative >> internally. Yes.

>> internally. Yes.

>> In in the company. How big was the company at the time?

>> Um well the the full story is that um my co-founder Kareem originally started the company in 2017.

>> Um and he did it with his best friend Nikolai.

>> Um and and they uh they kind of explored a lot of these different ideas and actually had each one was fairly actually a brilliant idea but they didn't really commit. And then the issue with committing is is you narrow and and

and you don't have the ability to to be as big as you can be, right? And so it's like this interesting dichotomy. Um

separately I was at a as an insurance tech company and I was like a GM of a business unit and our our CEO wouldn't give me any give me any engineers to work with and but he was like you have to grow you know. So I would this was like 2018 2019.

>> Oh you were one of the people using it.

I wasn't using clay but I was using other no code tools like bubble and this was early notion excel obviously to build a product suite and and actually we built a very good product suite with

no code tools that beat out tech companies and stuff um >> because the bar in insurance is quite low >> um uh and so that's how I got into the no code space and why I was really

interested in it um and I when you're interested in something you do kind of unhinged things so like I was in 10 different like slack groups about no code tooling that I would monitor obsessively, you know, and and by the way, this is actually my advice for

anyone who wants to start a company or wants to or do forget starting a company, do anything do anything interesting that they're excited about is you be naturally interested in it.

And so you only someone who's naturally curious about something join 10 Slack groups about a topic and then monitor them regularly. And in any case, one of

them regularly. And in any case, one of them someone posted about doing a webinar for Clay at the time, >> um, which didn't have customers or revenue. And so I signed up for the

revenue. And so I signed up for the webinar, but I'm the only one who showed up for the webinar. Um, no one else. And

so they were going to cancel it actually, but but then I was like, "No, no, I want to use the product. Let me

play around with this." And I was like, "Wow, this is early but special. Like

there's something magical here, you know." And so I cold email Kareem, who

know." And so I cold email Kareem, who ignores me because he was on a silent meditation retreat. Um

meditation retreat. Um >> the the famous silent >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Meditating on on

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Meditating on on whether to commit or not, by the way. Um

and uh and and and then so I cold email Nikolai, who does respond to me. We have

very similar energies. We hit it off. We

start spending time together and we start working together. But then Nikolai leaves to focus on crypto. This was a peak crypto moment. Yeah. Uh and then everyone else kind of leaves too. Um

everyone else >> it was like six people.

>> Six. Okay. So it was it went from like what?

>> Six to two.

>> Six to two.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Uh something like that. And so um um maybe seven to three

that. And so um um maybe seven to three or something like that. Yeah. And uh and and so and it was very odd to me. I was

like why is everyone >> this is better? Like this direction makes more sense. But

>> yeah, it was even less about the I don't think the direction was clear. They

hadn't committed yet actually. But it

but the product I thought was special.

This this this what what it could do I thought was special.

>> But that was like four years in, right?

Like that's a that takes a lot out of people.

>> But those people hadn't stayed for Kareem and Nikolai obviously had but not everyone else. Yeah.

everyone else. Yeah.

>> Um >> and so for whatever reason I was like we I was like let's work on this. K was

like let's work on this. We we kind of committed we worked together and then um we reset the business in a lot of ways and committed to go to market and launched the product and narrowed in on

realized that marketing agencies uh were our best first customers and doing data enrichment for them was the best first use case and then we kind of grew >> cold email specifically right so so give me the exact person it's like

>> I don't know like Jennifer at like a marketing agency 30 people and like >> right it's like it's it's smaller than that 30 people is very generous to assume that we were selling it to people

like It was it was like Eric Noowski at a at a at a at a a fivep person marketing agency, you know, it was Jordan Crawford at this. So, it was very an email list and they needed to figure out who like what like what what

>> basically they were being hired by companies to do to get them leads.

Basically, they were lead generation agencies and the way that they would get them leads is by doing cold email campaigns. Got it.

campaigns. Got it.

>> And they felt the pain really acutely because they're running a low margin services business and dealing with many clients at a time. So anything that could, you know, help them with cost savings like data enrichment

consolidation or automation like clay or whatever would be and they're very technical and entrepreneurial and scrappy and they're always at the cutting edge and so that was what what drew them to be >> and so what were they using or what were they choosing not to use when they were

choosing clay >> they were using a mess of tools um they were using a many many many tools all they were using separate >> this is very saturated space right like this is >> no it's not saturated this is a confusing thing about go to market it is

it is competitive it's not competitive it's crowded but not competitive What's that mean?

>> It's crap besides you guys or >> No, no, no. It's different philosophies.

People have different ways of thinking.

And it's funny cuz I tell everyone how we think and no one copies that. People

copy other parts of it.

>> Interesting.

>> So, for example, like we have a lot of copycats and and people will >> So, there's like people selling like vanilla ice cream and strawberry ice cream, but there's only like one person selling each of those flavors. Is that

kind of like >> Well, I think there's a there's a lot of people selling those two flavors and we're over here selling a different flavor that despite telling the world what flavor we're selling, they're not copying that. Got it. And so, like, as

copying that. Got it. And so, like, as an example, what I mean by that is is like like I I'll tell you some of the flavors, right? One flavor is is let's

flavors, right? One flavor is is let's have let's actually by the way, we were the for example the first usage based pricing model in go to market.

>> Everyone historically until us was seat-based. And so um historically like

seat-based. And so um historically like the main approach and why by the way it's >> was seat based before you that doesn't make any sense. What do you mean? I

mean, every single go to market tech product has been C-based.

>> Interesting. But like the number of things you would enrich wouldn't wouldn't factor in.

>> Well, these aren't data providers. These

are go to market. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like

and and and so even like user gems or champify all these like point solutions.

Basically, this market has been super fragmented. Okay? And there's only been

fragmented. Okay? And there's only been one or two uh winners and and those are Salesforce and HubSpot and uh and and and everyone monetizes by seat because and then the consequence of monetizing

by seat is that you have to um uh uh the only people who have lots of seats are sales reps and so then you are building for sales reps. If you do that, you actually lower the floor. You you kind of like make your product super accessible to people and then no one has

like an incremental edge because everyone has access to the product and everyone can use it, right? And so

that's kind of a lot of the what a lot of the philosophies and then uh usage based pricing actually unlocks the ability to target a more like a more technical user because you don't need lots of people and they and then AI

enable the ability to have that one person build on top of for many other people right so it it turned go to market from a onetoone thing to a one to many thing and so the philosophies are incrementally improve every single rep

right another one is use AI to do everything that's what an AISDR company would say and what we say is actually how can you give primitives to like a revops person or a growth person and let them build on

behalf of everyone else and help them scale the most creative ideas.

>> So you want to enable the like hackers Yeah.

>> within the go to market go to market engineers but with a like a like a growth hacker type of mindset.

>> Um and you were building tools that would enable them uh do all kinds of automations. This is before AI even

automations. This is before AI even really hits, right? So you're like >> really well positioned >> I guess. I don't know.

>> We were well positioned. Not that we knew that of course but it it like a AI enabled a lot of things in the product.

It and as a workflow product it accelerated a lot.

>> So like I don't know there's a lot of reision revisionist history or things that make not revisionist history things that make sense looking back but like >> but some of these didn't make sense.

>> At that time it >> it didn't seem obvious that like from what you just described that that you guys would just take off. Right. And I'm

I'm curious if there's like >> but there were some things that were taking off. So that year let's so we

taking off. So that year let's so we launched a product on 2020 February 2022. Um February of 2022

2022. Um February of 2022 >> it was only it was February 2022 >> is when we launched a product. Yeah.

>> And then late 2021 to February 2022 was getting the product in shape for that >> like committing getting in shape and then launching. And then February 2022

then launching. And then February 2022 to May of 2022 I would say was kind of a mess and we were like overwhelmed overwhelmed with inbound >> in a good way. Like,

>> no, I would say it was a mediocre way, >> but like you got a lot of attention.

>> We got attention and you didn't know how you weren't prepared for it.

>> And we didn't know how to deal with it.

And we and and there were the use cases were all over the place. I like it was it was confusing and so we actually put the weight list back on.

>> Um yeah, we removed the weight list and we're back on the wait list >> and still like six people at this time or >> we reduced and then we started hire and then I think May, June, we hired a few more people. We hired two more people.

more people. We hired two more people.

It was like then by June and July we were like six, seven, eight people. Um

>> and then we were like okay. Okay. So, we

put the weight list back on and around May or June is when we were like we had earlier noticed the the the agencies, but that's when we really kind of like focused in on the agencies and felt the real pull there and we kind of really

just focused on them and that was kind of when we and we would find more of them through WhatsApp groups and stuff like that and that's when we kind of actually built um like and we would just focus on data enrichment for them. So,

that was actually the wedge and it remains the wedge even for enterprise today.

>> Data enrichment.

>> Yeah. where we consolidate a bunch of vendors and make that easy. And so it takes you to take it seriously, but we started to see like very technical people build like pretty creative workflows using the data enrichment, you

know, and and weaving it together. Um,

and that was kind of the the initial, but but you know, at the time you would have to to to get through a lot of stuff, you'd have to write JavaScript and and actually AI helped us solve that problem because we were able to create a

formula generator that let you write in natural language and it would write JavaScript for you. Could

you have not could you have just done data enrichment? Because it seems like

data enrichment? Because it seems like the whole automation piece that's like a huge thing to bite off so and but if like was the was the quality of your data the secret sauce like is that why people are like oh guys you have to try

clay or like what >> yeah because it was a deal it was a financial arbitrage at the time >> I would think.

>> Interesting. So how come like financial arbitrage that you were you eating the the cost or >> uh more or less I mean it was a deal you know. So, it's a really good deal for

know. So, it's a really good deal for your customers. Okay.

your customers. Okay.

>> Yeah. I wouldn't say we had like terrible margins. I mean, not that I was

terrible margins. I mean, not that I was paying attention to the margins at at that kind of revenue scale, but but but but it was definitely basically wanted to give the best.

>> We were data resellers.

>> We were basically a data reseller for like I mean, we still are actually, but but uh but uh that was the entire value prop uh back then.

>> So, it's like come for the data and then kind of stay because you're going to build all these amazing workflows on top of this.

>> That that is that would be a very charitable characterization. At the time

charitable characterization. At the time you're like, "Oh, What do we do?"

Right. Okay.

>> It was like just use the data.

>> Okay.

>> And and that's like you're using something. And then we would see people

something. And then we would see people do some workflows though it was like hard.

>> Yeah.

>> And and by the way, the when AI came around cuz AI the API for TouchPT came out I think 2023 January. And so that actually um enabled a bunch of interesting things.

>> But you had PMF before that, right?

>> We had PMF for data uh before that and like early PMF for maybe this workflow thing. Got it. and then the L and then

thing. Got it. and then the L and then and then the Chachi and and by the way we did grow quickly. So this is by the way these are uh preI growth numbers but like recorded by the way

>> that's fine but it's fine but like I think like in from May of 2022 to December of 2022 uh before the API came out we grew from

zero in revenue to like 600k which was like pretty quick in like a preAI kind of thing you know in like six months basically um and and so that there was clear traction like something was happening and then AI enabled actually a

few interesting things right so what did it enable one was it uh it actually helped the product get easier to use like we the formula generator stuff like that was pretty cool.

>> The other thing is um it helped us complete the workflow. People were able to to not just uh to to enrich data but they were actually able to send an email because you could use AI to to send to

like write a message. And then three what was really cool is you know what makes AI good data.

>> Um and so because we have the go to market data you could use it as context for writing the message. And so we were able to consolidate all of that in the right place and then and then string it together.

>> One when I bring up clay to people, it's just it's clear that there is this really strong user love for the product which I think I don't know but I'm seems like probably rare in the space

>> in B2B. It's it's rare for sure.

>> Yeah. What if there >> it's like consumer like love like granola probably?

>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If there's

like one or two things like looking back that you think were the biggest uh reasons for that love that like what would those be?

>> I think there's probably two reasons.

One is I I personally think that the product is just fun. Like I think it's just a fun product and and >> like the UI like the >> Well, it's it's like you're solving a

puzzle and that actually is the confusing part, right? because it's it's like uh it's like you're solving a a puzzle cuz growth is like solving a puzzle actually and and and you're building things, you're trying things,

you're iterating and it's just kind of like fun to build and um and that's how I feel when I'm in the product. Um and

the tricky part about it is is everyone else historically in go to market has simplified simplified simplified simplified and here you're actually seeing all the complexity and its raw kind of beauty. Um, and that is I think

the inherent insight. The insight is the complexity is the is the differentiator.

You need the complexity because growth is inherently complex and so you need to see it and do that. And that that's the mistake all our copycats make. They say,

"Hey, the narrative out there is that clay is too hard to use." And we have a counter narrative, but we'll put that aside. Um, uh, clay is too hard to use.

aside. Um, uh, clay is too hard to use.

And so, so what they do is they they simplify it. The problem is is the

simplify it. The problem is is the complexity is actually the the point.

The power and flexibility that is enabled is the point. So, to answer your question, that I think is really beautiful. Then, especially in the early

beautiful. Then, especially in the early days, there was like a magical vibe of using the product when like I mean it kind of broke half the time, but but but the but the like just seeing the columns run, it was just like addicting, you know?

>> And then I think and this might be revisionist history, but I I think at least our brand and our vibe and our like marketing is very fun and inventive and creative and kind of amplifies that.

>> I I wanted to ask about that like the I love the Clay brand. When did that happen? Was that from the getgo?

happen? Was that from the getgo?

>> No, from the beginning. It was like we we we did completely irrational things on brand marketing. Like like at that point we had Okay, so there's this guy named I actually not going to tell you his name, but but there's this guy

there's this guy who's a claimation artist and uh and this was crazy. We had

no revenue or all basically round it down to zero and but we really liked his claimation art, you know, and so we wanted like his claimation art to be like on our website and stuff. And his

pricing model, to put it lightly, was innovative.

>> It was based. No, it was uh it was like license based basically. And so he was like you could rent my art actually and so like you can you can get a license

for my art for like a year and rent it and then pay me another fee next year to rent it again. And you know what? I

agreed to this bananas thing and it was unbelievable pricing. Okay, it was like

unbelievable pricing. Okay, it was like this little like blob, a beautiful blob, a gorgeous blob, but a tiny little purple blob. Okay. And it's like, yeah,

purple blob. Okay. And it's like, yeah, that's $2,500 to rent for a year, you know, but it was gorgeous. It was very nice.

Or it's like Yellow Star, you know. Oh,

that's $3,000 for a year. So, just

unbelievable pricing. That guy, by the way, is now full-time as a claimation artist in house. Um,

>> you have a full-time claimation artist.

>> That's right. Yeah. And so, so these are we bought Clay.com before we had revenue, you know, and so we hired I had a brand when we had 15 employees. Um,

and so these are investments you make not because they make sense, but because they are true to who you are and you're going to do it because it's fun and interesting and what you want.

>> Yeah. How do you think about that? Like

at what like what was the internal decision process of like we have a product. It's like it's it's, you know,

product. It's like it's it's, you know, still early, you know, it's like um you're still shaping it.

>> Yeah.

>> But we're going to invest in brand and and the claim fulltime.

>> You can go through each of those decisions you want. Every single those four decisions. This might take a

four decisions. This might take a second, but um the the first one was the the blobs, right? Well, let's do that one last because it'll make sense off the others. So, um um the play.com that

the others. So, um um the play.com that was expensive and um >> how much?

>> Not not for video. Um uh but uh but that one was expensive and that one was uh that one is more like, hey, if you don't It's kind of like >> it'll be the cheapest. It's the cheapest it'll ever it's the cheapest it'll ever

be and if if the company works it makes sense and if it doesn't work then we can sell it you know and is the reason the company is going to fail the delta of this money you know and and if if we succeed it'll only get more and more

expensive you know um so that that was one two um they had a brand actually so this is a close friend of of creams and I was skeptical whether it would be a

full-time thing but then when he joined um I was like hey actually um we we should have you do people stuff actually and Kareem was like you know that's good because >> stuff like uh >> like had a people >> okay

>> because actually and he was a brand designer and a plant store owner um but the but Kareem was like he and by the way not just any plant store owner he uh he had the the number one wire cutter uh plant store okay

>> on wire cutter. Yeah. Uh and so uh but they ran out of business because it's a plant store and the margins aren't good.

Yeah. Um uh but but good >> go to market was no good.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But but anyways, um because because I like it was clear to me like he had the soul of the company embodied in him and he's like a I described him as a little like like a like a little angel who who sprinkles

pixie fairy dust everywhere, you know?

>> Is that is that the soul? Is that what Clay is like? Is that Are you guys just walking around?

>> I mean, how would you describe how would you describe him?

>> Yeah, I would agree. I think that everyone who works at the company, you can expect to have a little bit of like pixie dust and magic wherever they go.

>> Yeah. Um but Punit embodies this more than anyone actually and and and so that was his soul was clear to me from the beginning and so Kareem had this good insight which was actually what he can do is uh is make consistent the external

brand and the internal brand because that's actually when people leave a company when what you say externally is dissonant with what's happening internally um and so you can you can and this is a core principle of the company tighten feedback loops we have many

examples of this but this is one of them uh you can tighten it to one person and so we do that in lots of other things like the GT engine >> I didn't get the titan feedback thing like what's the connect this.

>> Well, normally these are different roles, but if you have it in one person, the feedback loop is way tighter. Yeah,

it's inherent in one person.

>> Like that doesn't feel like us or that doesn't feel.

>> Yeah, it's all in one person and they have the brand design and the and the people experience and combine that into one, right? And so, so that's that ended

one, right? And so, so that's that ended up making that one work. Um, there were the claimation artist. Now, that wasn't so early, you know. I actually we actually I would have hired him if I

could have earlier. Um, that was it just took a while to successfully recruit.

you know, he's an artist and he's like, "Well, I want to be independent, you know, whatever." Um, he's lovely. He's

know, whatever." Um, he's lovely. He's

lovely. But, you know, that's uh um uh but >> he's had a people now, right? No.

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, he's still the claimation artist, but um but a great one. And and and and so I would have

one. And and and and so I would have actually hired him earlier, but I think we hired him like, you know, like when we were already in the tens of millions of revenue. Um but, you know, why not,

of revenue. Um but, you know, why not, you know, like that's that's obvious that's our brand. Like that's and let's go like and and that's totally worth it.

And so just keep making blobs, you know?

Let's keep doing that. that's and and and it's like no, let's not use Mjourney for this. Like this is what's unique and

for this. Like this is what's unique and authentic to us and that's what makes us stand out. And then the the blobs and

stand out. And then the the blobs and paying for the thing. I was like I I remember negotiating with them actually.

I remember like being in a phone booth with our first marketer and like going back and forth about this blob and like the this ridiculous pricing model for

the blobs. But, you know, like

the blobs. But, you know, like maybe this was just it was just like it I just wanted it, you know, like it just, you know, like I wanted the blobs,

you know, like the the blobs are great.

Yeah. And so, like it's really nice, you know, and so um uh and and and it makes it feel makes it feel fun, you know, cuz like it it that's important.

>> Yeah. I don't have a I don't have a deeper No, that was fantastic. One of

the blobs.

>> Um we're going to let we're going to open up for questions in a little bit. I

want to I want to focus on you. Um it

sounds like a hell of a journey from 2021 till now.

>> Yeah.

>> Um >> that must have really messed with your head. I don't know. Right. But like

head. I don't know. Right. But like

>> I don't think so.

>> You don't think so?

>> No. I mean T can tell me she's only known know me for months.

>> How long have you two known each other?

>> Four months.

>> Four months.

>> Oh, okay. Well, then what will she know, right? Like you might have been a

right? Like you might have been a totally different person.

>> That's true. That's true.

>> What's your personal life like? Are you

uh what has Have you had a personal life the last few years? Like do you have like a >> We give people personal lives. Yeah.

Yeah. I have a wife. We have a Yeah.

Yeah. We have a family. Like things are happening. Uh but I also like I I um uh

happening. Uh but I also like I I um uh um I also before this I worked in politics for many years and and worked for Hillary Clinton for four years. And

so you know and actually I would say the campaign is the Hillary Clinton campaign is like uh is by the we can actually bring this back to go to market. So I'll

I have a >> this is a this is actually a new take I've just shared once before. So so

it'll still feel fresh, you know. um uh

um which is that's actually like the ultimate startup. That's a that's an

ultimate startup. That's a that's an organization. I was the seventh person

organization. I was the seventh person like working with her in like 2013 and she had a small personal office and that stayed seven people. It it's actually very much like a startup, you know, it

stayed seven, eight people for like three years, two years, and then she announced her president and it grew from seven people to 20,000 in a year and a half, you know, and then it's kind of like on the eve of going public or

something or the eve of like this crazy acquisition. Uh it was like it like blew

acquisition. Uh it was like it like blew up like FTX, you know, like that's like the analogy. But the the analogy I would

the analogy. But the the analogy I would make back to go to market is um like I think the fundamental flaw in that campaign like um uh like running for president is going to is going to

market, you know, and so um I think there are a lot of things that feel very top down >> and and and don't feel very bottoms up, you know, and and so there's analogies

in companies for this too, right? So I

would say Clay and Granola are very bottoms up companies. Um but a top down company would be something like Harvey where it's like uh hey we have a thesis which is uh hey there's AI and I think

lawyers need it you know and let's just go make that happen. Um but like the the issue the the issue that they usually run into is like people buy into that but they usually have like product things because bottoms up companies are usually very productled and then these

companies are always trying to like make those types of things work. I would say the same thing happened with Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, which is um you can't like uh say what you will

about Donald Trump and you can guess my my my opinions on this, but um >> but you can't script a presidential campaign where you come down a golden escalator and insult Mexicans, you know, like that's not how you say that's not

how anyone would be like, I want to be president. This is how to go do it,

president. This is how to go do it, right? But what he clearly had is some

right? But what he clearly had is some insight into people um and and or at least his people or whatever and uh and and that is what carried him. And

actually that's what's true in go to Mark 2. The only way you succeed is if

Mark 2. The only way you succeed is if you have a unique insight about your customers that no one else has. And I

think though I admire her deeply and love her like I think Hillary really struggled with that. And I think that campaign was a very top- down campaign and it was very much this is how we should run like and it and it it lacked

like a unique insight into the American people. Um which led to like uh issues

people. Um which led to like uh issues like uh when she when she was leaked for saying the the deplorables and and 47, you know, all this type of stuff, right?

And so that that fed into this narrative. And so that like it's it's

narrative. And so that like it's it's funny how these all kind of connect.

>> Um I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you one more question then we can open up it a little bit. Um,

bit. Um, well, you hear about these startups that are doing super well, right? And you've been on the cover of magazines and all that stuff right?

>> No, I have not.

>> You haven't?

>> No, I don't. That seems a lot.

>> Oh, we should get you on the cover of magazine or something.

>> That seems a lot.

>> It It's very easy to talk about the successes. I feel like

successes. I feel like >> a lot of doing a startup is actually being scared shitless or like not knowing what to do even when things are going well. So, I'm I'm kind of curious

going well. So, I'm I'm kind of curious like can you talk through what was the stuff that was keeping you up at night in 2020 or 2021 22 23 and how that's changed

>> because you're doing >> very well. I'm sure you're still stressing out about certain stuff or are you not someone who stresses? Are you

just >> Well, actually has a funny comment on the stressing thing. Um uh so I have an Aura ring and uh and it turns out you can look and see I've only got this like a month or two ago. you can see uh um

how stressed you are and there's like a chart and it's like you know relaxed or something then it's like engaged and then it's stressed. There's like three levels and basically my chart is I'm always engaged. I am like consistently

always engaged. I am like consistently flow. You're in stress. I'm never

flow. You're in stress. I'm never

relaxed and I'm never stressed but I am always engaged. I'm just like constantly

always engaged. I'm just like constantly engaged like right just like right there just like like constantly engaged you know. So um so Kareem on the other hand

know. So um so Kareem on the other hand is very funny cuz Kareem doesn't appear externally stressed at all ever. He's

the calmst like he's like achieved enlightenment you know he's like that's his vibe but but as Ring would say he's very stressed all the time but so it's very funny that's a very funny

dichotomy. Um, yes. I think like there

dichotomy. Um, yes. I think like there are things that I stress about the business all the time, right? And so,

um, right now I'm stressed about pricing and I'm stressed about pipeline and I'm stressed about the fact that our discovery and our process on sales sucks and I'm stressed about international exp. I'm stressed about all sorts of

exp. I'm stressed about all sorts of things right now that I'm worried about and thinking about. I'm I'm annoyed that the use case marketing of the website like looks disastrous and like why can't we just package those up cleanly? Like

these are all things right now that I'm like we need to we need to like dramatically get better at. I think

we're not like I just messaged our web design team like I'm like we need to be we used to be always on the cutting edge of web design and we're not there anymore like what's happening where's the creativity like these are all the things like like right now today that I've just been thinking about

>> and that's that's that's changed dramatically every 6 months or whatever but I think the the core of what you're asking I think for me to be more more vulnerable about something that was

actually a challenge is more like it's more personal growth you know and uh >> scaling yourself >> Yeah. Yeah. like and like I I I like and

>> Yeah. Yeah. like and like I I I like and like imposttor syndrome and like uh and insecurities around that. And so

>> and maybe I can give two examples, right? And so um one example I'll give

right? And so um one example I'll give is is a little less about me and more about like insecurity around the company. And so that's like process.

company. And so that's like process.

>> We're very like anti-process kind of vibe. You know, we don't have a

vibe. You know, we don't have a leadership team. We don't have

leadership team. We don't have leadership meetings. Like there's a lot

leadership meetings. Like there's a lot of things that are um that don't that don't scream process. And um I was kind of insecure about this for a while and I was like it doesn't feel like the

company is like operating at like a level of rigor or cadence or whatever that like not that I've experienced before actually but but that I just hear about that people talk about you know on Twitter like you see on Twitter like

people are like oh this runs like a machine. I'm like that sounds pretty

machine. I'm like that sounds pretty good like maybe I should maybe I should run like a machine.

>> You're the COO right? Yeah. Just just

>> Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's kind of my job actually to do this. And so I just forgot is I lead all our business teams and then Kareem accord is CEO and he leads all the engineering product and design teams. So I was like this in theory is what I'm supposed to be good at and what I'm supposed to do and it

doesn't it doesn't feel like we're doing that and and so I went to all these companies and I was like what do you do and and they were like oh we have this meeting and and then they have notes in the meeting and then they and then they

have they follow up on the action items in the meeting. And so like okay maybe we try that you know that seems reasonable. And then I was like what am

reasonable. And then I was like what am I talking about in this meeting? Like I

was like, I feel like I've already communicated all these things in Slack or whatever. People just call me and

or whatever. People just call me and like and um like I don't do one-on- ones with my team. Yeah. And um and but it just works. People just call me and I

just works. People just call me and I talk to them. I'm available. And so and I was very insecure about this one thing for a while. And like

>> um and then I ultimately realized that like uh what we were doing is working.

Um don't try to fix things that aren't work that aren't broken. Like always

solve problems. This is also true with exact hiring by the way. Like people are like, "Oh, you don't have this position.

You don't have that person." Okay. Well,

what problem do you have? Because if you don't have a problem, then that exec is going to be set up for failure because then they're not solving anything.

They're not making an impact. If you

paid them a ton of money, then they're going to get fired and it creates more thrash and chaos. And so

this like, and even by the way, just this weekend, another hot hot off the presses item on this point of like a trade-off of not having a leadership team, which is something like like should we have a leadership team? Should

we like meet? Should we like be in line?

Yada yada.

>> Wait, wait, so you don't have a like you there's no place where you get together.

>> That's right. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I mean,

we have like we talk, we text, you know, and like uh uh um but um but but like you know, so one person is like they were doing X role and then there's a new person who is coming in to lead that

function and so they're feeling insecure basically and and they're like people perceive me as part of this leadership where does this put me or whatever and actually by not having this everyone feels like it's a very flat team very

flat structure so everyone feels like part of it but the moment you create hierarchies and whatever then people feel like other or whatever. Actually

another thing on this is why it was one reason why we don't have levels. We

don't have like competencies and levels and stuff because >> no levels.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we and and and so the the the reason is if you put things written on paper people will like go to that like if you say uh senior manager does this people go to that as opposed to you want to like let people be

creative and and and like and reach for the things and and and so this is one reason we don't have that right because then people will start comparing themselves to titles and stuff like that. The last thing is on the the

that. The last thing is on the the insecurity, right? So another that that

insecurity, right? So another that that was so these are like company insecurities where I >> now you're over it like as in like it works for us.

>> Well, then I realized that this is authentic to us. This is it's working for us in these circumstances which you can't replicate in another company and you have to lean into that and it has like very unexpected benefits that that are hard to predict in the moment. And

um and that's why you do things that are authentic to you that make sense and solve problems. And then like on the personal insecurity side like I remember vividly actually I remember when was

this? This was probably like

this? This was probably like I don't know. This was probably like uh early 2024 if I had to guess. Like

January, February of 2024. And and and people Clay was taking off, like things were growing and like you know, a lot of execs were interested in working at Clay, you know, and and by the way, um

and I was kind of managing all these business teams and I was like like maybe this person this person has this great resume like maybe like this head of marketing whatever, right? Like like why

am I doing this, you know? uh like like this like am I actually like am I putting my ego right in front of the company's interests, right? Um and this was like a whole like crisis for me at

the time because I was like like am I putting my own ego and my own needs ahead of what the company needs, right?

Um cuz I meet these candidates, they're very tenured, very accomplished and they want to do the job and we get them to do the job and like I was like reflecting and I was like do I need them to report

to me or what and then what am I going to do? Am I going to be useful? Am I not

to do? Am I going to be useful? Am I not going to be useful?

>> In and actually I try to revisit this all the time actually cuz cuz still for some reason I'm responsible for all these business teams and uh >> so you didn't hire any >> so we we so that moment and so I tal I had a whole conversation with Kareem

about this too, right? And and we even interviewed them. We interviewed them.

interviewed them. We interviewed them.

We like met them. We spent real time with them and the kind of conclusion we came to and I'm not saying that there's no head of marketing or no CMO or whatever. we actually ended up promoting

whatever. we actually ended up promoting our head of growth marketing to become head of marketing um that that wouldn't have been able to be a good fit or whatever. But I I think like it's kind

whatever. But I I think like it's kind of like a weird observation but like a weird like it's it's kind of weird to say out loud but there was this moment where I was like reflecting on all of

this and first I actually just like fully gave up. Actually I fully was like actually Kareem I'll just do something else. You should we should just hire a

else. You should we should just hire a CMO. They'll know what to do and all

CMO. They'll know what to do and all these things. And like there was a

these things. And like there was a moment where I like completely came to peace with it and we should just we this is the best for the business and I was

making that case, you know, and then then like I was able to like uh realize through other conversations and actually really interviewing these people that

it's not that I'm a better marketer than this person or whatever, but that actually that what I was able to contribute, what Bruno was able to contribute, like what what we were able to do together is what got us to this

place to begin with and what and and and and what is helps make us special and helps like really represents our authenticity and that's actually what marketing is all about. It's about being

authentic. Um and actually that fit it's

authentic. Um and actually that fit it's very like fit based is still what's necessary and me doing this and Bruno doing this and all these people doing these is actually what we still need.

But then I really try to revisit that assumption you know like for example like we don't have like we just hired head of sales as we were just talking about. So granola is hiring head of

about. So granola is hiring head of sales. if you want the job, let let us

sales. if you want the job, let let us know >> in San Francisco then.

>> Yeah, in San Francisco. So, yeah. Um, so

we were we we hired a head of sales and and in that process and by the way, all of our customers are heads of sales and so it was like everyone wanted to be our CRO right?

>> And and CRO's they want to own like marketing and success and sales and all these things and everyone wanted to like be the CRO and all these things and the exec recruiters were suggesting like why every company

at the stage would hire a CR why aren't you? You know, and maybe I made a

you? You know, and maybe I made a mistake, right? because nominally I

mistake, right? because nominally I guess I'm doing that role of like keeping them all together but I was also just like trying to reflect on the problem we were trying to solve and it was actually a fairly narrow problem.

What I really needed is dramatically better sales process, dramatically better people management on the sales team and like relentless focus and execution on that and that's just the fit we needed then and let's solve that

and then over time like let me keep revisiting whether I should be doing this job and am I really the best fit for it and if I'm not we should like change something. So that was actually

change something. So that was actually an extremely winding and Byzantine answer to this original question and we touched a lot of things from politics to this, but hopefully that covered.

>> All right. Well, I we'll end there.

We're going to hang out. So, mingle, ask questions. Um, anything you want to add

questions. Um, anything you want to add at the >> No, no. I think just thank you guys so much. Really appreciate this. This was a

much. Really appreciate this. This was a lot of fun. We're like part of the reason I'm here is we're trying to launch into Europe and uh we want to prioritize highly. We're opening an

prioritize highly. We're opening an office here in London. Um, you should join Granola uh also, by the way. but

also consider us if you're in go to market. Um, and we're trying to make

market. Um, and we're trying to make this like a real priority and so I'll be spending a lot more time here. We're

going to grow a lot here and just really grateful for your time and attention.

Thank you.

>> Thank you.