Inside Linear: Building with taste, craft, and focus | Karri Saarinen (co-founder, designer, CEO)

my belief is that like any domain or

industry the more it matters the more

the design matters what happens is like

whenever there's like a new paradigm I

don't know it's like the mobile or the

web or something the first iterations of

those products existing there they don't

have to be like super welld designed

necessarily because they are the first

but then like as as you built the 100

like thousand like different email

clients any email client now has to be

like pretty good to be Beav and

considered like reason like email

clients it's like that the bar is so

high so I think like today it's almost

like a very basic thing now pretty much

from the very beginning you need like

pretty high level design that people to

even like pay attention or consider you

seriously today my guest is Ki sarin Ki

was the founding designer coinbase

principal designer at Airbnb co-founder

of two previous startups and most

recently is the co-founder and CEO of

linear which I am fairly confident is

the fastest growing and most beloved

issue tracking tool in the world and

something that a growing number of

product teams are using to build their

own product Ki and his team are building

their company and their product in a

really unique way with a huge focus on

Craft and quality no AB tests no metric

space goals instead a focus on taste and

opinions also no durable cross

functional teams instead teams assemble

around a project and then disperse once

it's done also they have just one

product manager as a head of product and

that's it in our conversation car shares

how he built a culture around quality

and craft how he makes trade-offs and

how he operationalizes quality and

thoughtfulness where design can be a

differentiator in competing against

incumbents we talk about something

called the linear method of Building

Product which is big on building

opinionated software working in

consistent Cycles amongst other

principles we also get into linear's

unique hiring approach which involves a

paid work trial where candidates work

alongside the team for a number of days

instead of just having an interview you

also a glimpse into how linear got their

first 10 customers found product Market

fit and skilled their growth engine

there is so much gold in this episode I

very excited for you to hear it with

that I bring you Ki sarin and after a

short word from our

sponsors this episode is brought to you

by Mercury who I also happen to use for

my business checking account I've tried

a lot of business Banks and there is

nothing even close to the experience you

get with Mercury I moved cash over from

another bank and it literally took less

than half an hour to set up the account

and wire money over at no cost they kind

of make you want to use the site more

often which I've never felt with another

banking site Mercury is banking

engineered for the startup Journey a

modern solution to help your company

become the best version of itself and

Mercury isn't just a place to hold and

send money it's software built to help

you scale with safety and stability

whether your team of two or team of a

th000 Mercury also goes beyond banking

to provide you with access to the

foremost investors operators and tools

visit mercury.com to join over 100,000

startups on Mercury the powerful and

intuitive way for ambitious companies to

bank Mercury is a financial technology

company not a bank banking services

provided by Choice Financial Group and

evolve Bank and Trust members

FDIC this episode is brought to you by

composer the AI power trading platform

now with retirement accounts algorithmic

trading has historically been reserved

for the hedge fund Elite now with

composer you can automate your trading

with a library of over 1,000 strategies

that are easy to understand and tweak

using an AI assistant and visual editor

composer is the first ever algorithmic

trading platform where you don't need

any coding experience it includes a full

range of trading indicators for you to

get creative and a Discord community of

2500 traders to discuss your ideas with

composer also has a powerful back tester

to see the historical performance of

your strategies and you can then invest

with a single click once you invest

composer will automatically trade for

you based on the logic of your strategy

with $1 billion in trading volume and

over 1 million trades executed composer

already has many big-time investors

using the platform regularly head to

composer. trade and use the code Lenny

for an extra week of free trial on your

composer membership that's composer.

trade Cari thank you so much for being

here welcome to the podcast thanks Len

it's it's great to be here maybe to

start to set a little context can you

just explain what ises linear what does

linear do and then share maybe a few

stats of just the scale of linear at

this point so linear is the project and

issue tracking system that software

companies and Technical teams love to

use we help like software companies to

to build software we started 2019 um

today some of the top growth companies

like block versel ramp retool uh Mercury

and substack are are building with

lineer we also additionally have lots of

other companies like thousands of other

companies using using linear these

companies can be like very early stage

team like some some companies just

graduated from YC or or or a public

company and just like briefly why we

created linear is is that like like you

said like we I work with you at the rpmp

and and before that I I work at coinbase

and I before that I had my own startup

and all of us Founders there's three of

us we had like a similar bath where we

worked in multiple different companies

in different stages and what we saw

often is that like the the tools

available for managing software projects

wen't that like really cutting it I

think like lot of them felt very clunky

or complex or or just like they had this

kind of Legacy way of thinking about

software development and so we just felt

like we should do something about it and

that's so with linear we we set out to

do like build this like most

frictionless and

streamlined um system for for modern

software development I'm also happy to

share that we we've been profitable the

last two years um and we also have this

thing where we actually have this net

negative lifetime burn rate um which

means that like we just have more cash

in the bank today than we have raised I

think a lot of startups like usually the

normal way is is that like you you spend

you raise money and then you you need to

spend it to to build it but I think we

since we were able to build a business

pretty early on we've been able to be in

this position that actually we haven't

spent any money on on building the

business that is insane I didn't even

know that okay so for all those reasons

a lot of Founders and a lot of product

leaders look up to the way lanyard

builds product and the way you think

about product and so to kind of frame

this conversation there's three areas I

want to dive into one is just how you

approach build Building Product two is

how you go about building the team and

the business in general and then three

is just how you grow linear and to start

I want to talk about craft clearly one

of the biggest reasons that people look

up to linear and use linear is the

quality of the user experience and the

product and I know your team puts a lot

of emphasis on Craft and user experience

I imagine that also comes at the cost of

some trade-offs like takes probably

longer to get stuff out the dir you're

probably losing sales because people are

waiting for a feature and you're not

ready ready to launch it yet because you

want to make it better what have you

learned about creating space for craft

and building product that is really

really great yeah and I think it's

interesting that those things you

mention like hiring building business

and Building Product and craft is like I

think that all of those are are somewhat

related to to each other but so what

what I can say about the product craft

per se is like it's it's definitely like

starts with the people that like on the

on the hiring front wheel always look

for people that care about it as a

business like why we really care about

it is is that like we see that

collaboration only happens if people use

the product and and like our product

which is supposed to help the

collaboration coordination if there's

friction or the The Experience isn't

that great or there's this little paper

cuts I think it's gets really annoying

for people to use and so we think like

for the business to be successful the

quality is is and The graft is very

important there is definitely like

tradeoffs sometimes like there can be

like for example timelines like we we

are about to launch something and then

for example I or someone else goes to

look at it and and sees like oh this

this doesn't like feel right and we just

like should fix it so I don't think we

should launch this now so sometimes like

it it doesn't definitely push the

timelines but this this might be like

days it's not like we need to like redo

everything the other way we think about

it it's like we are actually very okay

like pushing things out to ourselves and

into for like a small small group of

customers like if if they opt into that

so whenever we build a new feature one

of the things is like we don't want to

spend tons of time up front just like

designing it and polishing it perfectly

because we actually believe that when

when you start building the thing you

actually start realizing more like how

it could how it should work and how it

should be better so a lot of times with

the teams we tell them like just just

put it there in like I don't know the

first week almost like after you have

some kind of designs in place or some

kind of design ideas just like put it

into the app and like ship it to

production but only visible to us so we

internally can test it out and then I

think the next stage is like we look for

like a customer that could be interested

in this feature or or we just like ask

people to opt in to like some kind of

better program and in those stages The

Experience can be a little like janky or

it's not that like polished but we're

okay with it because we are saying it's

not finished like we just want to get

your feedback early so we can make it

better but like once we get to the kind

of like the full General release then we

like pay more attention to the actual

like polish or the or the craft that is

so interesting I didn't know you do that

so you actually go ahead and launch

things really early to select group of

people that want the early stuff and

then did you say that you find One

customer to kind of co-create and help

evolve the feature and change with yeah

usually it's it can be one or it's like

three or five or 10 so it's it's often

especially with the larger company like

larger company facing features we

usually do try to find a large company

because sometimes it's hard to like

imagine these things how they should

work and so it's better if if someone is

willing to work with us to like explain

okay this is how we we do something and

something like for example we we work

this way with versel that there was some

some changes they wanted to see in the

in the road map feature so we worked

with them to to like improve it and and

then they could like give us feedback

along the way that is so interesting

because I think people seeing linear

from the outside it feels like you just

take the time it need you need to build

something awesome and then it launches

and it's amazing and it's great but

turns out that isn't exactly how you

build it's you actually do launch things

really early and people don't

necessarily see it until it's done but

there's this whole process behind the

scenes yeah I think like sometimes

people can't believe like think that

craft is is about perfecting things and

like perfecting them in a in a very like

organized way or like very early on the

downside with this like Perfection

mindset is that it can be sometimes hard

to like put anything out because nothing

is ever like fully perfect and so we try

to like balance this thinking with the

fact that we should be always pushing

things out very quickly but then like

also fixing them like improving them

very quickly so it it's almost like the

opposite ideas um but then we we try to

like kind of combine that and and I

think it's been it's been working well

that and generally in the company

there's not necessar like a lot of

reviews or something that we we always

like review everything that like gets

shipped this way um because we do want

people to like feel that they can like

put something in the app and then we can

try it out so it's more like let's just

like try it out and then but then like

yeah we do need to look at it again when

before we release it to everyone a lot

of Founders a lot of product leaders a

lot of designers uh definitely want to

create space for craft and making

products really great something they're

really proud of but in practice it's

really hard very few teams and companies

do this is there anything else you've

learned about creating space for this

sort of thing and prioritizing it for

Founders that are listening that are

trying to instill more and more of this

or do you have to be a designer Co like

Ki and there's really it's hard to do

otherwise yeah I I I don't think

actually it's it's it's not like purely

coming from me so I think the all the

all us founders like Jory and Thomas in

additionally their background is

engineering but I would say like they

actually have almost like I think they

they spend even more time on the details

than than sometimes I do like um I think

like very early on when it was three of

us I would be the one like kind of doing

the broad Strokes designs like this is

how the UI works and this is how the

some of the things work and that they

were the ones that like oh there should

be animation here and there should be

like this kind of thing here so I think

it's it's kind of like that DNA I think

from comes from all of us and I think

like with with the craft it's always

starts with like people need to care

about it like if it's not valued in the

company then it's very hard to do for

anyone to do because no people don't

feel like it's it's valued and I I had I

gave this advice to some founder he was

asking me about it and like in their

case like their Founders were coming

from different companies like maybe this

one founder came from ARB and then the

other ones came from my Facebook and and

Amazon

and I think like this like for example I

think Facebook and Amazon have very

different culture on quality or craft or

or shipping and I think like I what I

said to them like you just like you need

to align on it like it's it's like you

cannot run a company with multiple

different kinds of cultures I think I I

made some points like why the quality is

important for certain kind of products

and like you should all kind of believe

in that and then like instill that with

everyone you hire the other thing I

would say that what we like to do is we

actually don't have much BMS in the

company we only have one and like we can

talk about more about it but the the one

of the things I think that happens is

like when when you build a team and you

start creating this very specific roles

for everything um where like I think

that often the BM can be the one that

like figuring things out and like making

decisions and guiding the team but

they're not the ones like building the

feature so they're not there like

looking at it like the whole day it's

like how how is this where does this

button go or how does it work and I

think like a lot of that like this graph

for us happens when we give the project

team this like ownership and the project

team is just engineering and design and

then when they start building that

feature they start seeing this

opportunities that this thing could be

better like a good example of this is

like we one of our Engineers Andreas

like when we were building this

rightclick menu in the app like so you

can right click different things and

under that you have sub menus like Mac

OS does this well where it's like when

you when you open that menu you hover on

the menu and then you want to go to the

subt menu so you hover to the right you

don't have to go like exactly like

horizontally to get into that menu you

can actually go kind of like diagonally

or like you don't actually have to hit

the menu exactly there's like this kind

of safe Zone but like a lot of software

like just implements like hey let's do

this menu let's make the sub menu it

only works if you exactly hover over the

menu and and then like what happens is

the user often like misses like with few

pixels what they were trying to like do

so what Andress it like which we didn't

tell him to do is like yeah this kind of

sucks and like we should make this

better and so he figured out the way to

like create those like safe areas that

are Dynamic based on like like the

submenu positioning and everything so

it's much easier now like you can go

diagonally to the actual thing you want

to go to so I think like these kind of

things like happen when you give

people like more of the ownership of the

project and also like the space to do

that and and then you also have like

leadership or or generally the company

culture that that values the quality or

the craft all right well I got to follow

this thread there's a couple questions I

want ask so you have one product manager

would you call him the head of product

yeah non you who who is the yeah he is

the head of product awesome so what made

you decide to hire him and even have any

PMS we we started to see that okay we we

have enough features and and and like

like areas of the product and also like

the team is speaker that it's hard to

keep kind of like aligned on all of

these things or like even keep track of

things and like initially we actually

hard n as a contractor to help us with

this like insights data tool so we have

this like data to Tool feature built in

linear so you can get like data on

what's happening in the workspace and

for us like Founders we realize like

none of us like we are not super

experienced in in data tools so we need

someone to help out and luckily nonan

was like we KN knew him and like he

actually worked at mode which is a data

tool and so we initially hired him like

can you help us figure out like what

exactly should this data du tool and how

should it work because I think there's

different ways of doing that and I think

always the easiest way is like let's

just copy what some other companies's

doing but we didn't want to do that so

we wanted to like figure out like what

is actually like useful way to to to use

this data or like get this data so he

helped us with that and then we kind of

saw like yeah this could be like useful

in other larger areas or overall with

the whole product is like we might have

this kind of questions like what should

we exactly be thinking around here and

like why and like how would we like

Define this direction and then like help

the teams to also like align on it so

like it to us it's more like he's kind

of like the figures out the direction of

the product and and and like steer the

some of the efforts and not like he's

there in every meeting and like making

every decision or writing every spec or

or something like that another question

along this line because there's a lot of

PMS listening and they're going to be

like oh these guys don't need PMS

or PM is over product management de and

so just another question along these

lines somebody needs to do the work that

a PM does basically right there's all

these things that is on the plate of a

product manager when they're at a

company and if they're not there other

people have to do those things and what

I'm hearing is basically you give those

responsibilities to the engineer

designer and maybe other functions

within the team is that right yeah so I

mean definitely I think what it means is

and there's definitely like trade-offs

so like I think sometimes when companies

specialize RS a lot it's like because of

it's more efficient like if the engineer

just spends 100% of their time like

coding something then it's like they're

using their skill set to the max but

then we just think that in in order to

like build quality things or build

things in a certain way it's actually

better if people actually also spend

some time thinking about things and not

just like executing so yes like for

every project there's a Project Lead

that lead can be engineer or designer

it's not like a formal role or it's not

based on a like uh like your whatever

level or or it's just like you need to

be certain title that you you can be

that it's more like a assignment that

like okay now you are responsible at

getting the project started and working

with to together with the team like

figuring it out and then like

communicating when changes uh or like

communicating how the progress happens

and and so it's definitely like it it

means that the the engineers and or

designers also have to like do this

things and like they do need to like

communicate and they do need to think

about like the scope or or things it's a

different way of doing things and and um

also not everyone wants to do that which

is fine but we when in the hiring FR try

to hire people that are kind of

interested in a broader scope than just

like the that the like specific skill

set that they have yeah I think those

last two points are really essential is

one people often don't want to do this

work and they kind of are happy to

offload it to a potential product

manager so the fact that say Engineers

have to do all these boring PM things

like communicate timelines and keep PR

specs aligned and make sure timelines

are HID and all that stuff and run

meetings a lot of people don't want to

do that a lot of times they do and I

think in this case people seem to really

want to be doing that the other is I

think you need a really high caliber

team that's very product minded and the

hiring bar needs to be very very high

for the engineers and designers to want

to do all these things and be good at

them and so I think I think those are

two necessary ingredients for this to

work out yeah sure for teams that want

to try this sort of approach especially

startups that are kind of starting out

and maybe not excited about hiring

product managers is there anything else

that you think is essential or important

to functioning well without any product

managers and you're at around 50 people

at this point yeah we are around 50 and

probably the only thing I say it's it's

like the hiring front that like you you

really need to spend more time on it and

like basically you cannot really

interview Engineers only for the

engineering skills you also have to

interview them for like the product

skills and it's like it's obvious like

you cannot I think expect that people

have some like if you do some kind of BM

interview for them it's it's not they're

not going to have the same kind of skill

set or the same understanding of the

cont Concepts or something but like the

way we've done it in the past is like

basically I might interview them about

the product I'm not a technical person

per se so I will just like ask them

questions about like how did they do

something or like how do they think

about something and it's similar to

other roles too it's like we we just

look for like do this person have like

opinions about about products and how

they they work and and like can they

form opinions and and can they kind of

use their own judgment in at times and

then um like can they communicate

article at those things as well awesome

I was just thinking it's interesting

that a tool that I don't think it's

designed specifically for product

managers but essentially for building

products like the infrastructure for

Building Product in a team is built by a

company that is one pm and very few PMS

yeah I mean I I think like in some way I

would say that like with with linear

we're trying to help the whole company

and like I think Engineers is probably

like the largest user user group of the

of the product and like I think in some

ways we want to make the the bm's job

easier or like that like they they have

to spend less time like managing

everything or like very like the

daytoday because like the the engineers

actually using the product and they're

like updating the things it's like for

the BMS it would be much more easier to

like get this like what is the state of

things and and like maybe trust that

much more because people actually use

the product so in some ways like I think

we we're trying to like kind of like

make it easier for everyone easier for

the engineers like they they can focus

more on their work and then for BMS I

think like we're trying to make so that

that they can also focus on more on

other things than it's just like I don't

know managing the tool that they use

like I think that's not the most

important job of a PM I think they

should be like thinking more of the I

don't know bigger picture or like other

problems or like figure out like the

next like features or or something just

one more question along these lines

there's other companies like stripe I

think waited till 200 employees to hire

I think their first product manager

Snapchat I think is famous for something

around that do you have any sense of if

you think this might change when you

think you might hire more product

managers there kind of plan here is it

just kind of see how it goes as you grow

I think we will definitely hire more um

it's like I think like what I said

before is like I think we like to see

him the BM smarts like operating on a

higher level like the whole company like

I think the way we trying to build it is

like we have less people but people who

are more High Caliber and can think

about exter like larger scope than what

their current rol is so I think like

it's we're just like trying to build

this like a smaller units but more

effective units which I think like where

the BMS go and that that they they there

would be also less of them like and

they're not there at every level but I

think in the future as the company grows

and the team grows and the product grows

we might have like several BMS that are

focusing on or looking at specific areas

or specific types of things of the

product or specific customers or or

something like that awesome okay that

was to engine because I couldn't not go

in that direction but I want to come

back to design again and craft so it

feels like linear one of the reasons you

guys have been successful is design and

experience is basically a huge

differentiator from other products and

there's always this question of can

design be enough of a differentiator in

specific markets is there always an

opportunity to build like a

significantly better product experience

and have a real shot at disrupting an

incumbent do you have any sense of when

design can be enough of a differentiator

and this is coming from like a Founder

Trend decide should we go big on design

and experience or should we invest in

like distribution or new technology or

something along those lines any thoughts

there my belief is that like any domain

or industry the more it matters the more

the design matters and I think like it's

kind of like it's fairly easy to see in

different like if even in software or in

other Industries it's like what happens

is like whenever there's like a new

paradigm I don't know like the mobile or

the web or something the first

iterations of those products existing

there they don't have to be like super

well designed necessarily because they

are the first but then like as as you

built the hundreds like thousand like

different email clients any email client

now has to be like pretty good to be

Beav and considered like reason like an

email client it's like that the bar is

so high so I think like today the

startups like I don't know if you look

at like the web page Google launched

with or like the web page YouTube

launched with or some of these like

older companies it's it they were very

basic like if you launch that kind of

website today it's no one would really

pay attention so I think like the design

is always like it's almost like

a very basic thing now that like you

from pretty much from the very beginning

you need like pretty high level design

that people to even like pay attention

or consider you seriously and I think

it's like it's not the Fair because like

sometimes it's like maybe the product is

really good but they didn't have a

designer or they didn't have like time

to do it and then people just kind of

like dismiss it because it doesn't

doesn't seem like something that it

interest them so I think like that

that's the first thing is like I think

it's it is and it's going to be more and

more important um but I would also say

like design is never going to be like uh

the reason or like the the the reason

why a company is successful it's like

it's like the company still has to have

some other things like that the product

still needs to be something it needs to

be better in some ways or it needs to be

different in some ways and then like a

design is just like enabling some of

these things like en enable similar to

technology is like if you have good

technology it's like easier to do

certain things and like it the product

works better in some ways than you

having like a bad technology or bad bad

like infrastructure so similar to design

I think like if you if you have a good

design and like people are or even like

a good brand like people are like drawn

into it and then it's like makes like

some like user acquisition or user

retention or just like even people

perception of the product better I think

like an example is like packaging in

products is like apple or lot of

companies spend a lot of time like

effort into the packaging because it's

kind of like already sets the

expectations for the user who is

receiving the product is like even

before you use the product you like

start thinking

that this is a high quality product and

like I'm going to love it and then like

when you actually have it then you

actually like might feel that way unless

the product is really bad and then like

you wouldn't feel that way so I think

similarly if with startups or like SAS

it's like your landing page or some of

the other things is like they are

already like communicating something to

the user and they they setting setting

the expectations and then I think that

that can be like very useful thing

especially early on when no one really

knows you or or knows the product or

cares about you so I think like

especially I feel like design can be

very good leverage in the in the

beginning I think that's such an

interesting Insight especially that that

first thing you said around how the more

often and the more crowded the space is

the more opportunity there is for design

to be a differentiator is that roughly

how you think about it yeah so I mean

like just think about like I don't know

any any product category it's like

basically people people have then like a

lot of choices and then they like how do

they make choices like maybe there's a

specific thing they want but like a lot

of people don't necess know what what is

the specific feature I want from this

software so it's more like well what is

the best one like what is the highest

quality one and if you put things side

by side and you just people see things

people are visual so like then like the

design can be one of those things is

like stands out it's like well that

looks the best or that looks the most

like quality product to me so I'm going

to use that one

like when people have a lot of choices

they probably will pick the one that

like looks most most interesting and

then I think there is the second part is

the brand which

is something that you if you can build a

brand then I think it's like it doesn't

really even the product Almost Doesn't

Matter like it's it's it becomes this

kind of default like I don't know like

again like apple or Nike it's like yeah

there's all kinds of shoes you can buy

but there's a reason for someone to buy

Nike shoes other than some some random

brand even if the random brand would be

actually a better shoe they still buy

Nike because they like I don't know like

the brand so then I think like both the

design of the product but also the

design of the brand can be like like

very strong like kind of things that

like pull people to your company or to

the product is there anything you've

learned about just building a brand over

the course of building linear something

you find to be really important in

actually building that perception that

linear is really great and amazing to me

I think like the brand should be always

like authentic and and like it should

kind of like I think even people if

people can't articulate it um it it

people start to feel like something is

off like like I think there can to be

like companies or startups they like

think about brand is like oh brand is

the logo or the colors of the website or

something and then they like do the same

thing and some some other company does

and then they like think like okay now

we have a brand but like you actually

didn't like think about like what's your

brand like what is the message or voice

you you want to talk about and it it

doesn't have also like the brand doesn't

happen overnight so it's basically just

you start in the beginning like and and

like when you start a company you don't

have no brand and so you have to create

it so and you you create it over time by

the the things you do the things you say

like how you say them and like what what

kind of how do you approach things how

do you treat customers how do you build

the website or the product like all of

these things start to like build this

like idea like what does this company

mean to me in people's heads um I know

like we both worked at thpb and like I

think branesky is like I think the brand

was probably the most important thing

for him and I don't know how many hours

or meetings or conversations there was

about the brand and it's like the brand

was always like it's like part of

everything the company does because it's

true it's like yeah you can you could

book things like places to stay in a lot

of places on the web but when people

think about like oh I want to like stay

in some cool place they're going to

think about Airbnb it's like they're not

going to like think about those other

places so that's like the power of the

of the brand like people stop thinking

about the other things or or they start

understanding like okay this is the

thing for this that's part of the reason

airbnb's been able to build a direct

destination where people aren't like

Googling I want to stay in a home

they're like airbnb.com which gives

their BB such a massive Advantage not

having to run ads on you know Facebook

and Google or SEO it's just like people

know Airbnb and they just go straight

there there's very few sites where

people go I'm going to go straight there

and look for some knowing that they can

also compare hotels on all these other

sites coming back to design briefly just

like very practically how do you guys do

design reviews just like how do you

actually go about reviewing What's going

at and then to this may be too big a

question but just whatever you can share

is just like what do how do you know

when it's done how do you know when it's

ready and approved Ki sealed checkbox

ready to go we

doing like exploring different ways of

doing this I think like today I like I I

still run the design team so I do see

some of the designs like on on a weekly

basis and and then like I or one of the

other co-founders or one of the or the

head of product we are basically the the

sponsors for the projects so then like

we we are kind of like responsible like

check like reviewing the reviewing the

work and so we might just have a meeting

where we go through okay let just let's

go through the demo and like people can

explain what what's going on and like

how they think about it and why and then

we might have like feedback okay this

seems like strange or or or something

and then I might just after that I might

just like go into the product myself and

like try it out and then what happens

sometimes like it's

like in the initial stages like

obviously we're not going to like start

fixing everything it's just more like

let's try to get the like the main

concept there and like figure out how it

works

but then like before we are launching it

I might just go in and like try it out

and like try the different states and

click it click it around and and

sometimes I find things like like we we

were building this threading to comments

and um and then like when it looked all

good in in the demos and stuff and then

then I went to try it and like try

different lengths of messages and stuff

and then I started see like oh sometimes

the animations are kind of janky or it's

just like off like they don't go the

right way

I don't know the screen doesn't scroll

exactly right so then I I just like kind

of like captured those things and like

send it to the team and so we had to

like kind of pull back the release a

little bit until those things were fixed

that one was like it's it's very like I

think like a simple concept and it's

like very known concept like okay this

is how threading comments works so that

that was mostly about like okay what's

the execution of this but then we have

projects where we are like not sure

exactly how this should work and like we

can't really like like we can try it

ourselves we also have to see how how

companies use it so something like we we

built this feature project updates and

it's like a common thing companies do is

like you you need to write an update on

your project is it yellow green red and

like companies have very different ways

of doing this in different tools and we

just thought like well I think it would

be like really really nice if it's like

in inside linear and you can the team

when they work on a project they can

write the update linear can also Al

capture some of the stats like what

actually happened I think with that

feature it's like it's been working well

but then also now we been like exploring

like it's like after using it a while we

think like oh actually there could be

like more robust way of following these

updates maybe people could maybe the

leadership could just like get this

updates over email or like maybe it's

when you have a lot of updates you

should have a search or like a filtering

system or something so I think a lot of

times we just think like okay this is

like the scope of it for now and we're

okay like launching this and the

execution is good but we know that like

this is not the like fully figured out

version and we just need to see people

trying it out and like see the see the

feedback so it sounds like on the

decision of whether it goes out or not

it's kind of this intuitive feeling from

your actual experience trying it out

feeling gut level this is ready or this

needs a little work yeah I would say

like a lot of things that we do is is is

more like that that we don't do AP

testing or we don't do specific follow

like certain metrics or something we

might some we do have Telemetry or like

we can look at like how people use

certain things and we sometimes do that

but like that's not usually the goal we

have in mind it's like yeah we should

move this number this much so it's more

about like based on the understanding of

the problem we have and based on the

like what we think is right is this the

right solution and is this a good enough

solution to be released to to the

customers one more question along this

thread is how do you actually structure

these reviews it sounds like you go

straight to a prototype is there like a

design review phase is it all kind of

informal and people just review here's

what we need your feedback on yeah so

that there is like projects don't necess

have like specific states to them but

like I would say like roughly usually we

do start with design so there's like the

some Explorations on the design like

okay there's like different ways of we

could like approach this or sometimes

there's just one way because it's like

pretty clear clear but then like I what

I said before is that like we do try to

like get into the building phase as

quickly as possible because then we can

also like see is this this this

direction actually like reasonable and

like what what else does it C like is

there some problems with causes or how

does it just generally feel here so I

think like that that there isn't like

specific like

review stages it's more like yeah let's

check like if let's check on this

project like every week or every two

weeks and then before release using

let's also make a like a review of it

and like really test it out that like is

it the is it the quality we want awesome

so that's a good segue to another area I

want to spend some time which is the

linear method you espouse this way of

Building Product you call the linear

method which you publish online and

willing to in the show notes and I just

want to ask a few questions around this

way of Building Product one is you are

big on this idea of building opinionated

software can you talk about just what

does that mean and then maybe give an

example or two of how you actually have

done that a linear so first like with

the linear method what we why why did we

create it in the first place is like we

just believe that there is more of like

this modern ways of building software

and thinking about it and we wanted to

like share some of our our thinking on

it um and that's kind of like also it it

relates to how we build linear as well

like so you might like understand why we

make some choices because this is like

the way we think about making this

choices so we're trying to like share

our thinking behind the product and it's

just like here's the product and like

figure it out yeah so like the Ops like

I personally have like this belief that

productivity software should be and

especially Company software should be

opiated I think that like what the

productivity software is trying to do is

is like make people productive and I

think like what what productive means is

like you actually do something that

matters for the company which is which

is like I don't know build some new

feature or like fix something or design

something like all of those things are

like eventually they provide some kind

of value for the customer I think there

is this like ideas or Notions in the

world that like flexible software is

great and like I think it can be great

sometimes but like what happens is like

people start spending a lot of time like

figuring things out like how how does

how does this feature work like you can

use it in 10 different ways and then

everyone every team or everyone figures

out the different way of doing it so our

thinking is like we we like to provide

this like good defaults or good opinions

like this is how the feature works and

this is how the workflow works so you as

a user or as a team don't have to think

about it and you can focus on the work

you do and the other thing is like my

design Mantra is always like design

something for someone like it's very

hard to design everything for everyone

because there's you you just end up with

a very generalized solution tion so then

what we're trying to do with the op

unated solution is that like that's the

best solution or the most optimized

solution we think of and then like when

you use it like hopefully you agree and

like you can feel that it's not

optimized so being op unated it's like

the I think the value it provides people

is like you don't have to think too much

like or spend some more time on the tool

than you do on your actual work and then

another core element of the linear

method is called cycles and I know

linear is all around this idea of

creating cycles and working in Cycles

you talk about what is a cycle and how

it works at linear so for example like

the Cycles is is it's optional like not

every team has to use it or not the

whole company has to use it but it's

there as as you can turn it on or off

but basically I think the why we created

Cycles is that I think any team that

works on software or or some other

products like you always have almost

like infinite list of things to do and

that list gets longer every day and it

can be sometimes very distracting for

the individual or for the team to like

decide like what like there's a new

thing coming in like should we work on

that or should we work on this other

thing we decided in the past so the

Cycles is just a way to say that like

like for the next week or the next two

weeks or whatever time frame we're going

to work on these things and like these

are the things we we think like are the

are the priority or the focus for this

this time frame

and then the team can kind try to focus

on those things now if if something

happens like I don't know we really need

to jump on this other thing at least

there was like some kind of initial

state that like we we decided before we

want to do these things and then now

something else happened and so now we

have to go on this thing so so you have

like a answer when someone comes to you

to ask like why didn't you do this other

thing before then you can say well we

did decide to do that but then something

happened and we had to do this other

thing so so the Cycles is like it's very

similar to Sprints but we like to call

it Cycles because we are not really

sprinting anywhere the Cycles also run

on like automated schedule so it's like

you don't have to think about like which

day does it start or or like uh every

every time like set it up manually so it

just like runs automatically and so it's

it's just meant to like to help the team

to focus on like let's just like focus

on these few things and forget about the

infinite list of other things that are

are um in the back

you mentioned earlier that you don't set

metrics goals and so let me dig into

that a little bit is that true you don't

really have number goals for features

for launches and things like that and so

let me let me start there and then I

have a followup question yeah so we

might have like a company level goal

sometimes like for example like weekly

active users like that's like a metric

we want to want to increase or or

something but in terms of like specific

features we don't have goals for those

and the reason is that I think like

product like us or like a system that is

used by different kinds of companies and

and kind of it it's like a system made

of multiple different parts and it's

it's not like a very it's not necess

like you want to optimize any specific

thing about it it's like also companies

are a little bit different so like their

usage of different features can like

differ because they just operate

slightly differently or their team size

is different or the setup of the team is

different or the culture is different so

there's uh I think like for example I

don't know some like Instagram or some

of these apps it's like yeah we need to

drive engagement and that's like the the

main feature like that's the main metric

for every feature like we don't actually

we don't have that like we we just think

that like there should be features that

help companies and sometimes we can look

at the metrics before we start working

on it like let's see what's this state

of things are but we don't necess want

to set like oh we need to increase the

specific metric by by X it's more more

like we want to solve this problem and

ideally the success way it looks like

the problem like customers agree that

the problem is solved or they they enjoy

the solution and it's not like that the

metrics went up so just to summarize so

far uh you have no metrics you have no

experiments you have essentially no PMS

just one product leader you spend a lot

of time on design and craft and making

things

awesome I'm curious just what you think

it takes to make a company work in that

way because this is pretty different

from how a lot of other Founders think

and a lot of other product teams work

yeah we we like to like talk about this

inite like this like a mixture of like

magic and science and like like how we

describ is like there's always some

level of science that we do and I think

like some companies are very scientific

on their product management that like

they like to measure everything and they

they do do lot of tests and things but

like we just decided like and we don't

think that's necessary um or that's

that's a good for us so the science for

us means that like we we do talk to

users a lot and like the whole whole

like the uh any project we start with we

do some like level of user research and

as Founders like different people on the

team like we might have like weekly

calls with customers or users we also

encourage everyone in the team like go

to the customer slack they they answer

people questions like we have shared

slack Channels with customers we call

anyone like I sometimes go answer the

questions there I also see when they

complain about something I think so I

think the first part is like the whole

team kind of has to be really

understanding the product and the the

customers and the the problems people

are facing and kind of have that like

empathy and as well as like the

understanding like what is the state of

things today and then we we talk about

that and then sometimes we we don't

might pull up stats and see like oh

Wonder like is there some kind of

patterns we see like like okay this kind

of companies are using this thing more

and what what do we think about it but

usually we have some kind of question we

want to answer it's like I wonder what

what what is going on and then we look

at it versus like let's just P some

metrics and then decide that we should

increase this metric and then the magic

part is like what happens when you kind

of build this understanding like

everyone company builds it's not like

everyone has the same understanding but

like everyone builds more of that

customer and product understanding then

like we have discussion like what should

we be doing or like how what decision we

want to make here then everyone is much

more like kind of informed of the actual

reality of the the customers or the or

the product and then we think like you

can much more like use your Intuition or

or thinking to to do those decisions so

you don't have to use data or metrics to

to back those things up so that's like I

think the main thing is like the whole

company kind of has to like be with the

customers or like like talk to them and

and then like understand like where the

product might work well or where it

might fall short that's what I imagined

you were going to say and I love hearing

that for someone that wants to create a

similar culture is there tactically

anything you find to understand if your

employees and Engineers designers have

enough of that context and really

understand the problem I mean I think

it's always like a different people like

different people in a company will have

different understanding so it's not like

you can expect like everyone like will

every day like go to see everything and

like uh has has this but like we we do

sometimes like sessions with the with

the team or we do record videos with the

customers we kind of write notes and we

share this with people I feel like again

it's like fairly a burent like if

people like if you know your customers

or the product like it's it's very

different way you can talk about it

versus like if you don't have any idea

like I think think like if you don't

have any idea you probably don't even

know what to say um so I think it's like

kind of apparent if people have that and

it's not like every projects like we

need like everyone to have this like

understanding um it probably usually

enough if one or two people have that

understanding or have different

understanding of different things so I

think it's again I feel like it's like a

culture thing and I think the other

thing is like you kind of have to have

the you just have to kind of believe in

it like I think sometimes people use

data a lot or too much because they just

are they're worrying or they're afraid

that will I make a wrong choice and and

like I'm using data to like make the

choice for me but then like you might

still feel like this is not the right

choice but the data is selling me is the

right choice and then turns out maybe it

was the right choice or not but it's

it's more like again like a practice

thing like you need to be I think the

company and you need to be okay that

like sometimes we make mistakes and like

we made the wrong choice and then we

just can fix it but at least we made

that choice and the data didn't make

that choice for us it's interesting

about this is if you've heard the

episode on ramp and how ramp builds

product with Jeff Charles there's such

different ways of Building Product ramp

is all about velocity shipping all the

time metrics measuring everything and

your approach is almost the opposite and

I think what's interesting there is as a

takeaway is just there's many ways to do

it you just have to do it almost fully

and you have to have really

specific people I feels like the people

want to work in a certain way and a lot

of it I think also is the founder has to

has to be like natural to the way the

founder operates and thinks about

building and building a company yeah and

for sure and then like if you look at

like successful companies and like

Amazon is very different than Apple and

like how they operate and I think both

them are successful um but not in the

same way so I think it's again it's like

a yeah it's a decision you make as a

company or as a Founder like what kind

of company want to build I do think

there is like some aspects of like the

domain that you're in like what what

does that domain and the problem space

require from from the company and for us

I think it's like we are in the I think

we are in the retention business like

it's like and the trust business kind of

that ideally we have a company starting

use linear very early on and then they

stay with us forever and I think the

only way we can do that is like we need

to continuously kind of deal with for

them like good quality product and like

kind of maintain that trust that we are

that that that we don't like fail them

or or somehow otherwise like mistreat

them and I think like some businesses

are much more like transactional where

it's like yeah we just need to make this

e-commerce sale and then once it's done

like we don't care what happens so our

case it's more like we we really need to

like build this relationship over time

and then that's why like I think some of

the choices we make are also like kind

of like more about respecting the

customer versus like we're just wanting

to drive the revenue of the company

awesome such an important

point this episode is brought to you by

pendo the all-in-one platform for

product light companies building

breakthrough digital experiences with

all the tools you need all in one simpl

to usee platform pendo makes it easy to

answer critical questions about how

users are engaging with your product and

then turn those insights into action

with product Analytics lowco inapp

guides user feedback and session replay

customizable road maps and AI generated

insights and campaigns pendo is the only

solution you need to build ship and

optimize a successful product L motion

but don't take my word for it create

your free pendo account today and start

building better experiences across every

corner of your product PS want to take

your product Le noow a step further

check out peno's lineup of certification

courses led by top plg experts and

designed to help you grow and advance in

your career learn more and experience

the power of the pendo platform today at

pendo.io

Lenny that's pendo.io

Lenny something you're really good at

personally is focus I find that just

trying to get you on this podcast was a

lot of like hey Kye hey have you thought

about this yet and I know that a lot of

VCS are just like reaching out to you

all the time all these really fan cvcs

that are just like trying to talk to you

and get close to you and I just know

you're really good at avoiding shiny

objects and staying really focused and

really heads down and I've always wanted

to just ask you what do you how do you

do that do you have any tricks systems

processes approaches to staying focused

other than just ignore ignore the inbox

mostly yeah I I don't think there's any

like complicated like processes and so I

think like one of the things like I I

was in yay in 2012 and one of the like

things the main thing they say there is

like what you should be focusing on when

you build a startup is like talk to

customers build the product exercise and

like like if you if you're not if you

find yourself doing something else than

those three things it's probably like

the wrong thing to do and third when you

said exercise or yeah yeah and the the

exercise is that like it's important for

you to be healthy or just not just like

burn yourself out so I think there is

like uh it was like a balance like

advice to to that love it um so so I'm

doing those three things and uh but I so

so I think the thinking there is like I

think we often as a company also talk

about this and and like very early on

and and I use this the same way and like

I think the company can use it the same

way it's like I think there's always

things that you're supposed to do or

like it sounds like a good idea to do

and like it could be like yeah like come

to this podcast and I actually think

like before it wasn't like or like I

always have this questions like is this

important to do now or is it important

to maybe do later um so I think like for

example question on this podcast it's

like I didn't feel like it was important

to do it earlier because we weren't at

the stage or scale or something that it

I think could be like as interesting or

or or something so I think like it was a

better timing to do it later similarly

like when we built the product where

like initially we were just very like

focused on like is this really important

thing to do there's always like yeah

like you could get like sock two like

security kind of

certificate but and we know that like

eventually we need to get it but we

don't need need it today um so we just

say no to that and like if customer

asked for it so we say like we don't

have it and we will have it one day but

not now and see like and a lot of times

people are like okay like that's fine

and then like inter internal we also

talk about this like you know in like

RPG games you have the main quest lines

and then you have the side quest lines

and and we often talk about the

companies it's like avoid the side

quests like like there is always like

ideas people have and and it's a good

thing it's like people have ideas but

then might be like yeah let's make like

this t-shirt so like let's make this

thing and then we're like well is it

does it help the customers does it help

the product like this sounds like a side

quest to me and like basically means

like we should do it like this this

doesn't progress the main quest line

which is like building this product and

and like making it awesome for for this

customers so similar to me it's like I I

operate this way personally too that I

think about like is this important for

the main quest line in in building this

company for me or or is this something

that uh I can ignore for now or

something I can do later and it makes

more sense then that is such incredibly

good advice basically ask yourself how

important is this to do now and is this

the main quest or is this a side

quest amazing okay so let's talk about

hiring as with most areas you're very

very very deliberate about hiring the

bar is so insanely high at linear and

you also hire very few people so just a

few questions along these lines just one

is when you're hiring people what do you

look for that you think maybe other

people are not looking for enough and

where do you spend a lot of time I think

one of the things we all of us Founders

kind of saw in this high growth

companies that sometimes like the the

high growth is like especially on the

employee side is not that great uh it it

can create a lot of kind of chaos or

just messiness or or just like in my

past and working in companies it's

almost never it was always easier to

work with a smaller team very high

quality people than with a very large

team of like more average people it's

like almost like it's always faster and

better output when you have like more

much more like smaller team so that was

kind of like the thing with linear 2 is

like we we just believe that you can

actually build better with less people

than you can with more people so that's

like the basic belief we have so then

when it goes to hiring we we've been

like taking very like kind of like slow

steps on it that like in the almost like

the first year we didn't hire anyone

then like the second year we hire like a

couple people and then the second year

we hired more few more we never D more

than doubled in a year and that's kind

of like been our like guideline that

like we shouldn't more than double uh

and and this might be something we Chang

in the future that we actually might do

less than that but like what we look in

the hiring is is is like a couple things

like one is also the it obviously

depends on the role but basically I

would say like every with every role we

often talk about like the there needs to

be some taste or some like this kind of

understanding of the like how things are

done or how how what's the like people

have more like a broader perspective

than like whatever their role is so like

we talk about the engineering before

that like they they do need to do some

of this BM type of stuff and and so what

we look for in them like is that like

they have some of this like skill set or

product thinking or they can articulate

why some some choices are better than

some others or like in their past like

did they disagree with some of the

company's choices or the team's choices

or like so we want to have this like uh

obviously they need to be good

developers but also like do they have

this like a product sensibility or or

can do they have like a judgment around

that and this goes similar to like for

example like a marketing highers like we

we think about like yeah we do need the

marketing skill sets but then we also

want to see that this person also like

like maybe it's a good Storyteller or

like they have like this like kind of

appreciation for for uh writing or

stories or like they have a taste of

what's what's like interesting and

what's not so I think like with or like

when we hire like operations person we

also like to see that they they maybe

like have understanding on HR and maybe

it's not their role but they they

understand it and what happens is like

when you have these people that

are a little bit more than their title

it's like the company is I think much

more easier to manage because it's like

people can like pick up things more

easily or they can like work together

more easily because everyone has more

like a share like a more like a shared

areas or or it's not like it's not you

rarely get to the point like people say

it's not my job it's it's more like

people understand okay yeah I'm I'm kind

of in operations but today I kind of

need to help on this HR thing so which

is okay um and so that's kind of like

what we look for people it's like they

they are more than their um they can

take more scope than their skill set

would assume or like what what normally

is expected from them so essentially

you're looking for kind of these vend

diagram overlappings across different

functions and teammates yeah and then I

think it's the other thing is like I

said before is like like we want to

build much I think like a company that

has less employees which means that it's

it's like like like I said before we

don't want that many like specialized

roles or like two specific areas of

ownership or something we just think

that um we could build this like we

could have less people and those people

can take on more scope and they can own

more scope I think like traditionally I

feel like in companies like how do you

get more scope is that you advance in

the levels of the company because

there's like a lot of different teams

and different levels and then to get any

kind of scope you need to like rise in

into this like higher levels and what we

try to do is like you don't actually you

don't have to have that many levels but

like people can just like already when

they when they start they can start like

owning more areas and I think that can

be like much more like also like

interesting not to everyone but like I

think interesting to many people and

it's kind of like how I also like always

felt about as being a designer is like I

don't I didn't feel like my job is

purely like just looking at the designs

I also thought like I I actually need to

be helping this business or helping this

other area as well so I think it's just

kind of also like natural to me awesome

uh so one thing you did mention is you

have a really unique way of interviewing

which is a paid work trial can you just

talk about what that is and also just

while you're in that area you talked

about testing for product sensibility so

whatever you can how you actually do

that would be awesome yeah so we we do

with all of the employees we've done

like a bait work trial and depends on

the role what it looks like how long it

is and depends on also sometimes on the

person but basically like we

do fairly like standard like interview

Loops where where we test like we have

some like hiring manager interviews and

then like skill interviews and or tests

and and then the last step of the

process is the work tral and basically

yeah we we they basically come as like a

mini contractor to the company and we

give them a very like usually fairly

vague problem statements like if you're

engineer like hey there's this feature

that needs to be built like how would

you build it and like go build it um and

so basically they need to first like

understand the problem then they need to

to scope it down to something that they

can do in the time frame that they have

and then they actually like go they get

the access to a code base they can

actually go and go and like build a

version of it and then like at the end

they can present the work they did and

why we do this is that like we just

seeing that like it's a very good way to

see like for both of us like both for

the company and the candidates to see

like how we work together and like for I

think for the candidate what they can

see is that like what kind of company

are joining like what is it like to work

here and how are the what is the my

ownership or like how do I approach

approaches like I think a lot of

Engineers also like that they see the

code base and they're like oh wow this

is like really clean and like it's not

like some kind of spaghetti code type of

thing situation so I think like it it

helps the candidates as well understand

like what what are they signing off for

which I think can be like very risky

sometimes with especially with startups

like it's it's really hard to tell like

how the startup is operating just from

the interviews and you know large

companies I think things are more

standardized so it's like I think

they're more similar and it's easier to

make that choice but with startups it

can be like very like different how

companies operate yeah that is so unique

and I I rarely hear of a company being

able to hire that way I imagine one of

the reasons you can get away with that

where people are like don't have a

full-time job for a while while we're

doing a pay trials because linear is

such a enticing place to work I imagine

for a lot of companies they can't really

do that but I guess any thoughts on just

maybe more companies can actually pull

this off yeah I mean I think it's always

like if if you don't ask like you you

don't know like I I think like in our

case we that's just been the standard

and we we try to work with the candidate

like let's figure out maybe we do it on

the weekend or maybe we do at some other

like a vacation holiday or something so

there can be ways we can like schedule

it so that it it causes as little kind

of problems to the the candidate as

possible and I think we only had like

only a few people probably have ever

declined it like it's it's not like I

think everyone else has been at is after

the fact they've been happy that they

did it because they they felt like they

had a much better sense of the company

they're joining and then also like doing

that workd drop they can actually join

our meetings they they get access to our

slack and notion and they also have

one-onone chats with the rest of the

like some of the other people on the

team so they already get to know people

so it's it's a good way for them to like

evaluate us as well and then for us is

obviously we can see like what is

important for us to see is like how does

this person operate in this kind of

environment and like how do they

approach problems like how do they think

and like are they able to make progress

in a very short time frame which I

always think is like very important for

startups like you know large companies

you have maybe all time in the world to

to do stuff but I think like in any kind

of startup even even with us when we

like take our time doing things

sometimes it's still important like we

can do things quickly if we if we have

to super cool just to close the thread

on products and ability is there

anything you could share of just how you

actually help understand someone's

strength and and ability there yeah I

would say like we we have like some kind

of very scientific or some some like

special way figured out for this so I

think it's a lot of it's like a it's

like a discussion of of and like I often

think like ask people that like we asked

about their projects and I try to go

deeper it's like why was this decision

made like why do you think the decision

was made and like um I might ask like do

you think it was the right decision and

like or do you did you agree on it or um

ask them like what what do you think you

would have done that differently or

something so I think it's more like I'm

trying to see if they do do they have

thoughts in this area and like what

their answers is and people's answers

can be very like different levels like

some people might be yeah just like I

didn't like it which I don't like yeah

it's an opinion but it's not based on

anything it's just like you didn't like

it you should be able to expand on it

saying like well I don't like it because

in this case like it would not work well

for this kind of users or in this kind

of context or for this kind of purposes

so they they have like more of this like

reasoning or some kind of rational like

why they think this way and they can

articulate that so I think that's like

kind of like what I'm we often like

testing for is is like can they can they

do this and how well they can do it then

it's it's can be like very yeah there

can be like very wide ranges of how

people do it and when when you see

someone who really thinks about this

stuff it's very clear to see that they

they can just like talk about it forever

and they can go deeper and deeper and

then some people

that maybe don't haven't had the

experience or don't think this way

they're like yeah I don't I don't really

know like I just I just build it and

then seem fine let's transition to the

third area I wanted to spent some time

on which is growth and basically I'd

love to just understand how linear grows

and what you figured out around growth

especially in B2B SAS so first question

here is just how long did it take from

starting to work on linear to launching

say V1 something that number of people

can use so we started like officially in

2019 some I think months before that we

were already exploring and prototyping

the product so it wasn't so I think we

we prototype different kinds of designs

a little bit and and then we also um one

of the things we really wanted to solve

is like we wanted to make the

application really fast and the way we

figured out we do that is like we have

more of this like a local based data

structure where all the data lives in

the client and and then it gets synced

on the on the back ends like with this

Delta packets and and back then we were

just exploring like different off

the-shelf Solutions and and systems but

there was nothing really there so so we

ended up like building our own and so we

we spent some time like prototyping that

and then once we we've officially I

think started working on the company in

April 2019 and then we announced the

company like roughly mid April and we

had this like little website up with

with the wait list and and then I think

by may we could use it ourselves and

then um we we already we started

inviting some friends like try it out

but then I think in in June J I think we

started more like inviting people from

the waight list and and around June July

I think we had about I don't know 100

200 users on it and and maybe like about

10 companies or something and and then

we were in this private beta stage for

almost a year and the way we did it was

just like we had this weit list of

people on the wait list there was like

few survey questions like what kind of

tools you use today and and then like

why do you want to use linear and then

we just

and what's the company size and we

invited People based on like we invited

more like smaller companies using the

tools we we currently support it and

then also like I was trying to see like

who is more like interested versus I

don't know I just want to try it out

type of Pur and then a year later in

June we we launched it publicly and back

back then maybe we already had like I

don't know several hundred of companies

using it um and and then we also

launched the pricing and I think like

almost all of them maybe one company

didn't subscribe but everyone else

subscribe to that pay plan okay there's

a number of really interesting things

here so one is you're in private beta

for a year and then a year later you

launched how was long was that period

between starting to like incubate and

starting to build to that private beta

Milestone yeah I think it's just like

few few months like I think just a few

months of building the V1

yeah wow okay I thought it it was a lot

longer that is so interesting okay what

a team you've got over there okay and

then this survey piece is really

interesting I've heard a little bit

about the story so essentially you

launched it on Twitter you had kind of a

following your Founders had a bit of a

following so I think that helped build

up the initial weight list but what you

did there wasn't just like hey go sign

up for a weight list and then you just

add email addresses it's a survey asking

them what tools they use like whether

it's GitHub or something else and then

also the size of the company and their

interest and that helped you basically

prioritize who to go after and who to

onboard is that right yeah um and that

the reason we did it because we we know

that like we didn't support everything

and like what what I said before in the

focus is like we we want to like also

like be focused on on like let's just

like build a version that can work for

some people or some companies we don't

have to like try to address everyone in

the world in the in the first months of

the of the business and even before

after that so it was very like selective

process and I think we yeah we we were

fortunate that like we were able to get

people sign up on a wait list and I

think after after a month uh or so we

had like maybe 4,000 people on the

waight list and then we had this like

internal I think initially it was just

like a very manual process but

eventually we built this like invite

tool that we could just uh send invites

but in the beginning I would go read the

actual surveys like in a spreadsheet

then I copy the email and then I email

them the invite link from my personal

email and then like I would just like

email them like after like few days or a

week and it's like hey what do you think

and the reason we and so we we would

invite only like in the beginning we

maybe invited like 10 people a week and

like eventually we increased those

amounts but the reason we did it that

way was that we thought that like if you

just invite everyone at once or a lot of

people at once all of those people going

to probably hit the same problems in

this kind of software that is very early

stage so like I don't know they they hit

the same bug or the same problem in the

software so then they will all send us

feedback like hey there's this problem

and then we felt like it was kind of

like waste of the effort so we would

just do this cohorts like let's invite

these people and then they say like like

hey this is a problem like I don't this

doesn't work or or something then we go

fix that then after we fix that we

invite the next cohort people then they

say like well there's this thing that

need is needed or this doesn't work then

then we fix that so for that year we did

this cohorts and then always get the

feedback from the cohort saying like

this is like wrong or this doesn't work

and then we'll fix that so So eventually

I think it it was much more like a I

think like a effective way of doing the

initial development then um just like

inviting or letting everyone to use the

product right right at the beginning

there's so many interesting lessons from

this I wanted to ask how you got your

first 10 customers and what I'm hearing

essentially was from this weight list

you launched it on Twitter people signed

up you picked people to let on board you

worked with them over the course of a

year to make it what they needed and

then eventually started

charging yeah I think like the first 10

like people companies using it I think

maybe a little over half maybe there was

like three friends that like friends

that have startups and they used it and

then I think the majority of them were

just from this weight list but they

didn't like pay us anything like we

didn't have pricing in the beginning and

or during the private beta at some point

we start building the payment function

so we just like added a added a page in

the settings that like you can

optionally pay and then we just give you

a slider that like how much do you want

to pay per seat and then uh we is like

see like if I don't know some people pay

like $28 per seat and some people pay

like $1 so um so we but like it do

really matter we just wanted to test the

functionality and see like what people

people think and then like yeah like

after a year when we launched we already

had like in the I don't know first week

of launching like we we had probably

like some hundreds of customers I've

never heard of that approach to pricing

is just act an actual uh sliding scale

where people can slide the scale

themselves on how much they want to pay

did that help you figure out what to

charge or is it mostly just an

experiment I don't think it's like give

us like enough data to like decide like

I think it's but I think think it was

like good to see that it it's like there

was some people that went I think the 20

was probably the maximum that people

could pay so I think there was some

people that went to it and they felt

like actually like yeah I really love

the products I'm happy to pay like $2 so

I think at least it gave us some like

confidence that if we charge for this

and and it's like something under $20

it's it's it's there's going to be like

market for it I want to hear about the

story of how you've started to feel

product Market fit whatever that means

to you when did you start to feel like

oh wow this is actually G to work and

maybe this is going to be a real

business yeah I think like we always

been kind of I don't know some like

paranoid or SK like yeah I guess maybe a

paranoid is good way about the product

Market fit I think like it's it's like

a baroid in a way like we're always

wondering like do we really have it like

and like with who do we have it and I

think it's it's true in our kind of

business this that like I think I think

we started feeling it very early on and

and like when people first like started

using it and we could see like oh now

the whole company is using it and they

they seem like happier using it and the

feedback is good and they might have

some additional ask for them for for us

but but we started feeling like there

was definely like product Market fit

with certain kind of customer and this

these were like more like smaller like

early stage companies maybe where still

the founder is still running the the the

product and and they care about the

speed of the

shipping or they they kind of have like

a certain values in a way so it was like

a good fit with them and then I think we

we always like know that we we want to

like address the whole market and not

just like these early stage customers

but we knew that like I don't like if if

a Fortune 500 company came to us then or

even like today we might not be like I

don't think we can like provide them the

solution today that works for them so I

don't think the fit is there so for us

like the way I think about is like do we

have the do we have the fit in this

specific segments and like how strong

that fit is and so like in the in the

company's like journey I think we the

first year we kind of just focused on

like can we get the fit in the the first

two years we focused on like can we get

the fit in the in the early stage like

startup kind of segment and like

basically the goal is like we want to be

the default for for startups like the

default tool that the startups pick

and I think we were able to accomplish

that but we just purely focused on that

segment and getting the product Market

fit there and then like after or at the

same time we started getting some larger

companies and we saw like yeah it's not

like like really great for you right now

but like let's work on it making it

better and so I think the last two years

we've been like focusing on that it's

like how do we make this software work

better how do we get the product Market

fit better like stronger in this larger

company segments like uh that are like

thousands of people or like hundreds of

people or like a thousand people I think

this is such a good way and smart way of

thinking about product Market fit a lot

of people see product Market fit as this

like binary I have it or I don't and

like when am I going to really feel

product Market fit and what you're

describing is what I often here is it's

more of this spectrum of like more and

more confidence that there is product

Market fit and even more specifically

it's like product Market fit with

segments of the market it's kind of like

this map of the world and you're just

like slowly acquiring territory in the

market with specific elements and then

over time it grows and grows yeah I

think like a spectrum is a good way to

think about it too I think it's I feel

like there's this block Post in the like

written in the past where it's like you

know when you have product Market fit

and I think it's it's

probably like it's like that for some I

don't know social consumer apps like you

know like if it's taking off or not then

you you don't really have like a lot of

Defense segments or like you don't

really think about it like you just have

users and you have millions of users so

and then you see like it's taking off

and so you have a product Market fit but

then I think like in a more like a B2B

world I think there's always like you

can have different sizes of customers

you can have different domains the

customers are in or there's different

kind of like categories where it's like

you might be doing really well in one

category and and then not that well in

another and I think like maybe the

counter ined things is that like

actually if you're doing really well in

some category just like kind of double

down on that this is something like I I

talked to to the zoom founder Eric at

some some point in the company's life

cycle and this is also what he said like

is like when they were like building

Zoom early days they would get this one

type of customer like I don't know maybe

it's like a university and then they

like really it worked really well for

them then they're like well how do we

get more of the universities so they

would always like focus on a certain

kind of customer rather than like let's

just try get everyone or like let's

focus on everything which is not

possible so again like it's about the

like the focus is like if you have some

like you see that something's working

really well then it's almost like you

should focus on doing that more until

you hit some kind of points like okay

now we do have that category like

captured or or handled as much as we

want um and we should like expand to to

new area essentially look for poll and

just follow that and pay attention to

that yeah and I think there's like a for

us it's often like there can be

sometimes like for example now we have

most of the AI companies are like are

using us so I think like it's always and

before that I was like a crypto company

so I think there's like when we see

these kind of things happening then we

start to think like

oh could we do something differently or

like should we um could we like get more

of these AI companies um on board such a

great lesson just a few more questions

you mentioned that you launched on

Twitter and that to a large weight list

and a growing weight list is there

anything you did before that to kind of

build this following you know that

sounds like really like really amazing

cool we just announced it on Twitter and

we have this large weight list and then

we grow and we get all these customers

is there anything you did ahead of time

in anticipation of this launch would you

recommend people work on building some

kind of following online before they

were going to start it was it just like

hey we happened to have this kind of

following and it worked out anything

along those lines you would recommend to

Founders these days yeah I mean I I

think definitely if you have a following

and and like obviously depends what kind

of following but uh I think like my my

background as a designer I was say like

at at Airbnb and coinbase and other

places and I I did some like talks in in

conferences and and write some PL blows

so I was definitely like out there and

then kind of had that some of that

following which which was helpful but it

wasn't like I have like thousands of

like hundreds of thousands of followers

or millions or something I had maybe

like 10,000 or something which is like a

significant number but then I think like

the other thing is

is I think with the announcement like

one of the things we we did I think well

it's like I think sometimes startups

to try to like emulate successful large

companies too much and and you kind of

like do this like fancy announcements

where it's like hey now we're like doing

this fancy thing and then it's like

sounds very like corporate or something

and I think with the with our

announcement we we try to like

wrote it more like direct or authentic

to us like this is like what we're going

to do and this is why and like this this

are some of the things we're going to do

then on on a Twitter we did the same

thing like all of us Founders we wrote

our own reasons why we're doing this and

I think it was like just much more like

and I think like people could res people

like us could resonate more with it so

we were kind of writing to the Right

audience and like I think that's the

probably the first thing like when

you're announcing in your company is

like you think about like who is my

first audience like who would be the

best users like early users for this

product and like where are they and and

then like how do they think about things

and like what what kind of language they

use so for us it was like very it came

very naturally because we we are these

people we've been building software and

these companies and and we've seen like

other people have seen similar things we

have seen so I think it that the way we

announced it like resonated with lot of

people and then I think we we did have

some friends and um I said like we got

some did like Angel round where we got

some like friends involved and the main

reason we did it was that we just felt

like it's it's in the early days it's

good to have like a you feel like a real

company in a way that like you you have

someone to answer for in a way even

though the investors don't really run

your company or that they don't have

that much power it's more like oh I I I

took someone's money so I now need to

like make it worth it kind of um but

then like I think with the announcement

again like we could use some of those

people to like spread the message as

well to kind of close out our

conversation just a couple more broad

questions you have a pretty unique

culture at linear and I know one fun

thing that you do is you have this kind

of baking competition can you uh can you

talk about that and what it is you do

there yeah so so so since we are like a

fully remote and distributed company so

we have people in Europe and us like lot

of like kind of like group Gatherings

are kind of challenging um uh like

remote group sessions are kind of

challenging because the time zones are

so different um so like some of the

basic things like happy hours it's not

really like like doesn't really work

that well and also like Zoom happy hours

is probably not that fun anyway so um so

what we I think a lot of people in the

company watch The Great British baking

show and so we we decid like maybe we do

something like that like where basically

we would just pick pick a recipe first

it was like baking now we expand it to

cooking recipes too and so we just pick

a recipe that is like somewhat

reasonable to do in in an like in a few

hours in a couple hours and it doesn't

like require like tons of equipment or

skill or

something and and then we we just tell

people I go buy the ingredients use the

company card everyone has a company card

and then um then like hop on zoom on

this day and and for me it's us like

since I'm in California it's like 8:00

a.m. in the morning so so we start like

the baking or cooking then so so we made

things like like a roll cake and um

lemon Maring pie and and we made some

like bastel NADA which is like

Portuguese like Bas Tre and um and then

like we we just hop on the zoom

everyone's like doing their thing

following the recipe and then like

sometimes people have like questions

like hey I'm I don't know stuck with

this or like my dough looks weird like

does your dough look like this and

people can kind of like help each other

and then also like chatchat about

whatever random things at the same time

and then like we we do the thing and

then we we everyone takes pictures and

post this on this like slack channel

it's like what they what they achieved

and I think we have like kind of

friendly competitions like who who did

it better and like or who did it best so

people sometimes put a lot of effort

into the into the decorations and and

visuals so in a way it's again like a a

craft

thing that we do it's it's like I think

baking and cooking and these kind of

things is also a craft so we we likeed

it that way and yeah we've been

basically doing it quarterly since the

beginning of the company um and yeah the

latest thing we were a little bit like I

think didn't have that much time so we

we decided to do like easier thing which

is like a summer drink recipe so I think

it's it was like people made like matcha

drinks and and some like um coconut

drinks or white iced tea or something so

even that was kind of like interesting

to do you ever won one of these

competitions yourself we don't I don't

know if we clear like uh declare winners

that much but um I I do think like uh I

do since I'm a designer I do have some

advantages on the on the visual

presentation so I think that I generally

do well on that and obviously that's

like with this remote competition it's

that's the only thing you can c like

look for um it's not not necessar about

the taste or the texture because you

can't really taste it uh through the

zoom maybe it's a last question just

again broadly you've gone from being an

IC designer manager of designers to the

CEO of very fast growing company what's

something that you've learned about

leadership over the Journey of linear

that maybe you didn't expect for some

reason it was surprising to me I think

that like being a CEO or or some of this

like leadership roles is that you end up

doing so many different things and um I

think like even when I was a designer

like even if I would be like like some

like high level designer in some company

it's still like you're just mostly

focusing on the design and and that's

like your job um but then like when

you're a CEO then it's like every week

or every day there's some some different

thing going on it's not like there's

sometimes there can be like problems but

a lot of times it's like hey we need to

like figure out how are we going to do

this like how do we going to do this

like compens or how are we going to do

this marketing plan or like how are we

going to do this like offsite thing and

and so it's just like to me what is like

challenge like definitely like a

challenging for me is is handling that

like different kinds of things that that

come to you um and like staying somewhat

focused still still on something so I

think it's I haven't necessarily fully

figured it out but I also like learned

figure it out that like yeah hi like

hiring and delegation helps with this

that like if you can find other leaders

that can like take on certain areas that

that's that's helpful that that's the

like the the main thing that that like

how what is the it's like a very wide

range of things that you maybe didn't

have experience before but also I think

it's interesting to me to learn about

these things and like you learn about

financials and you learn about legal

things and then you start to feel like

oh actually I know something about these

things like over time for actual final

question before we get to very exciting

lighting round what's just the future l

or what's coming what's happening in the

future anything you can share yeah I

think there's always always things we're

working on and and improving um one like

a newer thing we're working on is is

this feature called asks and and

basically what it is is that we we see

that like in in a company there can be a

lot of lot of different people that

needs to interact with the product team

or different people that needs to

interact with this team but they are not

necessarily like in or part of this team

so we would we've been building this

like an Ask feature which which is like

an integration to slack where you can

very easily like go to a slack Channel

then then ask like your question like

you need something from this team like

maybe it's it team that like you need

like a laptop or maybe it's like the

like infrastructure team and you need

like help them like you need something

from them then the team that is is is

handling the request um they can very

easily send it to to linear into this

like triage that we have and then like

they can start like doing stuff with it

and if they have like questions or or

disc like additional questions to the

actual person who requested it we can

like send those messages back to the

person through slack so they don't

actually have to go to to linear or they

don't have to be a linear user to use it

so we think like this is like just like

a good way for the company or or the

whole company to be more potentially

involved in the in the company like the

product operations without like having

to be like a like a power user of lineer

or or because not every function really

uses it or or needs to use it awesome

what a cool peek at something coming out

soon or maybe out by the time this comes

out and with that we've reached our very

exciting lightning round I've got a

bunch of questions for you are you ready

yeah I'm ready all right well what are

two or three books that you've

recommended most to

people Timeless way of building by

Christopher Alexander like he he's this

like a uh he wasn't really an architect

but he he I think thought in Berkeley

and I think he he has this like

interesting thoughts about like building

things and like he focuses on buildings

and and towns and these kind of spaces

but I think there's a lot of like things

that are also interesting for building

software the other the other book that I

like is like the the Zen and the Art of

Motorcycle Maintenance because it's also

like talks about the quality of things

and and I think that's one of the main

themes of the book and like the the

thing is also that quality is so hard to

Define it it's like if you actually like

start thinking about it it's like how do

you define it it's it's like it's kind

of like it's really hard to pin pin down

but it's kind of like when you try

something or see it then you kind of

know if it's quality or not what are

some recent movies or TV shows they've

really enjoyed I think that the the

movie is like probably the John Wick for

I think it's a it's it's like kind of

feels like I mean LPC it's like there's

no l story in that movie but it it's

like a I think it's very true to its

nature so I like that fact and then also

recently I started watching The Silo on

Apple TV and I think I kind of like it

it's like a good mystery and then also

um it's kind of reminds me of the

Fallout game so so I kind of like it

that way too I actually read The Silo

books and I was really excited for the

show to come out but mentioned this on a

previous podcast the show is like so

little to do with the actual books like

the core ideas are the same but there's

all these stories that they're just

making up on the show so I kind of

stopped watching because I was just like

that's not what I was hoping for but

okay interesting maybe I I need to check

the books later like once I watch the

watch the show definitely read the books

but there's three of them and only the

first one is actually good the other

ones are not actually very good and I

should not have read them because it

just just went off the rails a little

bit anyway next question what is a

favorite interview question that you

like to ask candidates when you're

interviewing them I think usually I like

to ask like what is what is the

candidate most proud of and why um like

what like on their professional life or

otherwise like what they're most proud

of and why and then I think we we can go

deeper on that but I think it's kind of

like gives you a little bit indication

like what the person values and and like

how they think about things and and also

like I think it's always nice that

people can share something like they

think they did really well and we can

spend time on it versus just like asking

something like more like negative

things what are some favorite products

you recently discovered that you really

really

like um not sure if I discovered them

recently but like I recently I've been

in in this home office I've been

installing some of this H lights and I I

really like them because like throughout

the day I can like have more like kind

of harsh lighting because it's I'm I'm

in meetings or something and then like

in the evening I can kind of like change

the temperature like I make it much more

like red or orange or something so it's

just like I think it's nice that like

you can kind of transition to space it's

like okay now I'm working and now I'm

like doing something else and and you

can use the lights to kind of like

indicate that that is so cool do you

like automate the schedule or you

manually change the color yeah I just

manually Chang it so I have like a like

on my home app I have like scenes that

like so there's the night scene and then

there's the day scene or like the

morning scene and so I just like click

that button and then then it turns

changes the lights that is extremely

cool I'm gonna try that myself what is a

favorite life motto that you like to

repeat yourself or share with people

something you kind of come back to a lot

go slow to go fast is um I think for me

it's it's it's about

that sometimes people have tendency to

rush into things and especially in I

think in startups but other other places

too that you you kind of have this like

I think urgency is important but but

then sometimes you you have like too

much urgency and you are rushing things

and what happens is that you you rushed

it and then now you need to come back to

fix it so I think sometimes we I like to

think that like you should take some

time to actually like think about it and

like what are you going to do and then

do it because then it's in the end it's

going to be faster that way than like

going back and forth and fixing things

what is the most valuable lesson that

your mom or your dad taught you I think

it's like respecting people and things

so I think it's I mean I think the

people respect this is pretty obvious

but I think the I think with the the

things you have also I think like you

should take good care of them like when

you when you use them you should like I

don't know clean them or put them away

and then they're like ready for the next

time so I think I like that though like

you rather than like you treating things

like that they're trash or or kind of

like not that valuable you should kind

of like treat things that they are they

are valuable final question you were

born in Finland I think you grew up in

Finland what is a finished food that

people should definitely try to get as

soon as they can one is like this uh

salmon soup and it might sound weird

like a fish soup like maybe it's not

going to be that interesting but it it

is like a it's like a creamy soup with

some like potatoes carrots and and other

things and it's kind of like almost like

a sweet little bit like sweet flavor to

it so that's one thing like you can you

can make it yourself at home or or you

can like if you go to Finland there's

probably like a few restaurants that

offer it okay amazing is that something

we can get here or you have to go to

Finland to get it I don't think I've

never seen it here in in in Us in any

restaurant but it's not very hard to

make it yourself if you can probably

Google recipe it's it's basically you

just need some salmon and and um some

some like basic spices and and some

cream and and some fruit fet the BS all

right Next Episode we're going to do a a

cooking show with Ki KI thank you you so

much for being here you're building a

very special company in a really unique

way and I think many Founders and many

product Builders can learn a ton from

watching you operate in the business

that you're building so again thank you

so much for being here two final

questions where can folks find you

online if they want to reach out maybe

ask you some more questions and how can

listeners be useful to you yeah so I'm

on Twitter my my name Ki snn and and and

we also have the ler account which I

think is interesting so that's just at

linar and then

yeah I think like I hope everyone can

like check out check out linear and like

see if it could work for them in their

company and like figure out if there's a

pilot like I think we always happy to

assist on those things that like if you

just want to try it out and and try it

with the team um we can set help you to

set it up and and and like help you to

like understand how to use the product

awesome and it's just linear that app

right is that the

URL yes awesome okay easy peasy uh

amazing krie again thank you so much for

being here bye

everyone thank you so much for listening

if you found this valuable you can

subscribe to the show on Apple podcast

Spotify or your favorite podcast app

also please consider giving us a rating

or leaving a review as that really helps

other listeners find the podcast you can

find all past episodes or learn more

about the show at Lenny podcast.com see

you in the next

episode