Insights From a Former Stanford GSB Admissions Committee Member | Ep 84

You want to intrigue the the admission reader with your essay and then you want to blow them away with your recommendation.

What should I be for each school? You

should be the same thing. You can't be like a finance guy for Colombia and then an entrepreneur for Stanford. Like

there's going to be there going to be so many disconnects with your abilities and skills.

You never want to play to the school's strengths. Don't try to be someone

strengths. Don't try to be someone you're not.

Ever wonder what happens behind the scenes once your Stanford GSB application is submitted? In this

episode of the MBA mission podcast, the very first of the new year, Katie Lewis, who has served as part of the Stanford GSB applications evaluation team, offers

an ethical, transparent, detail-rich look at how applications are read and scored. Drawing on her insider

scored. Drawing on her insider experience, Katie explains what truly matters in evaluation, intellectual vitality, leadership promise, and personal distinctiveness. She discusses

personal distinctiveness. She discusses how GSB readers are trained to value context, authenticity, and emotional connection, and why the most compelling applications are those that feel genuine

rather than polished. Katie also debunks common myths about industry bias, GPA cut offs, and essay tone, offering actionable advice for telling your story

with clarity, and credibility for applicants aiming high. This episode

delivers rare insight into what distinguishes a standout Stanford application grounded in honesty, nuance, and respect for the process. Well, what

a treat. Today we have uh the most selective school in the world and we have someone who has been in the position of reading those applications.

My longtime friend and colleague, executive director at MB Mission, Katie Lewis. Thank you for being here. So, uh

Lewis. Thank you for being here. So, uh

we're here in some ways to talk about your experience on the inside of the Stanford GSB. So, I I mean I guess first

Stanford GSB. So, I I mean I guess first of all, just how did you end up h how does one become a Stanford admissions reader? How did you find that role? And

reader? How did you find that role? And

how how was the experience in general? I

found that role I I was at a point in my career of trying to get back involved in education. I'd served on the boards of a

education. I'd served on the boards of a lot of high schools and I'd helped a professor teacher class at the HOS business school and I kept wanting to be involved in business school. I checked

the other local school, which in my case was Stanford, and I noticed they were advertising for a seasonal admission reader, and I thought, well, that's not

a bad way to get somewhat involved, and it didn't seem like a heavy commitment.

So, I became an admission reader at Stanford.

That sounds like an easy job, but you're actually carefully scrutinized to do this. I had to go through several

this. I had to go through several hurdles of qualifying for this job. The

first was explaining why a Harvard graduate wanted to work at Stanford, which fortunately since Kirsten Moss was the assistant director at the time and

she herself had gone to Harvard, was not hard to do. To even get past the first hurdle, I had to read three admissions

cases, reach a decision on them, and and hopefully come out with the right decision in their eyes. Then I had to return and read I think it was 10 to 15

files. I spent the whole day there. Go

files. I spent the whole day there. Go

through the same process. And

fortunately I guess I did it right.

Again essentially what they wanted to make sure was that I was likely to be calibrated with the team.

Right.

So Stanford hires for seasonal direct they hire people with MBAs who have worked. They're they're hiring people

worked. They're they're hiring people who are like the people they're admitting. It's a full-time job rounds

admitting. It's a full-time job rounds one and two and then you don't work in round three, right? Generally,

right? Generally, and I think there's this perception, well, there are two perceptions maybe that maybe that counter to each other.

There's a perception of Stanford is a very very laid-back school. Um, and then there's the perception of most admissions committees as being these like stern smoky rooms. uh and and and

also I guess maybe that's I don't think people think of Stanford as the GSB as a smoky room necessarily but as you know a school that's rejecting 93% of the

applicants um you know having uh you know being a little bit more like rejection oriented what was your disposition what was how how did you evaluate a file um what was your like literally your demeanor as you're going

through an applicant file let me just give a little context first the the admissions team at Stanford is amazing. They're

amazing. They're very passionate about what they do.

They're very passionate about the values that Stanford re represents and that California represents. These are people

California represents. These are people who really do want to identify people who change their company, change the

world. And so they're very idealistic

world. And so they're very idealistic um and very committed to what they do.

So, yes, they're rejecting 93 94% of their applicants, but that's just a function of the numbers of applicants. It's it it

doesn't mean that they're critics. Um,

yes. Is it hard to choose and get it down to that list? Yes.

Or get it down to that so few people.

That's the hard part of the job because you're definitely turning down amazing people to get there, right?

If you want to be one of our success stories, sign up for a free consultation with a member of our full-time MBA admissions team. Since we've worked with

admissions team. Since we've worked with tens of thousands of applicants over the past two decades, we can give you our honest opinion on your chances, and help you put together your very best application. That is not a sales call,

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and so much more. Sign up at mbammission.com/cconult.

mbammission.com/cconult.

We look forward to working with you.

So, let's talk about that process.

You're, you know, getting the proverbial stack of files like like how does this how does this um how does literally what are the nuts and bolts of the process?

The day after you submit, everything you've put into your application is uploaded into separate files under your name and you access those online. Those

files are frozen. nothing can be added to them. That's why you can't submit a

to them. That's why you can't submit a test score later or a letter later. It's

never going to get and the reason they're frozen is independent people are reading that file for the next 3 months.

And you want to make sure everyone's reading the same thing.

So the minute I when I would read, I'd read usually 16 applications a day, sometimes 20. I had only 30 minutes per

sometimes 20. I had only 30 minutes per application. I would open up the file. I

application. I would open up the file. I

would read through those eight things.

essay recommendation, short answers, you know, everything in 20 minutes and write up an evaluation online. Move on

to the next client.

20 minutes.

20 minutes. Could not I never had more time than that. 10 minutes to to do the write up. This is all done online. And

write up. This is all done online. And

then I'd move to the next client. I

could only I would rank each file, you know, on them just, you know, accept, not accept, etc. I could only write accept or which meant or admit which

meant iterate on one out of eight. So I

had a quota which I could not exceed. What's

difficult about Stanford to go back to your first question is when you read eight applications there are three or four extraordinary people in that group.

Any one of them you could take right and I had to choose one. So there's a subjective factor. I only did the first

subjective factor. I only did the first I was a first reader. Every application

at Stanford is read two times by independent people. Um, and it takes two

independent people. Um, and it takes two admits or admit minuses to get an interview.

So, when you're reading this, I mean, is it as simple as is it scientific or is it as simple as just feeling good about an applicant reading reading their file, you know, obviously seeing the data and and determining they can do the work, but

it's both. It's it's scientific in the

it's both. It's it's scientific in the sense that you are filling out an evaluation sheet where you have to comment on the make a ranking on the on intellectual vitality the first criteria

then you have to make comments at leadership on the second criteria and then anything what's called distinctive ads um which means special factors that

that really make this client attractive.

So, it's it's it's quite qualitative.

Um, it's very thorough. And then you write up a whole paragraph about about the applicant. Um, I you know, this was

the applicant. Um, I you know, this was I did this some time ago at Stanford. I

don't know if they have the same process now, but judging by how slowly their invites come out. They probably do.

Yeah. Their invites famously come out over like two weeks.

Well, you never know. Well, I could do the first read in week one and they might might not get picked up for a second read until week 10.

We all have those applicants who are sitting there saying like, well, there's there's a week left like like they couldn't possibly and then they hear Yeah.

But the nice thing about it, I I just am very impressed with the incredible care that Stanford goes to it and they've been very they really want to give everybody a a fair chance. So you know

that Stanford has evaluated your int intellectual vitality, your uh distinctiveness, your personal leadership potential.

Explain to us how that can come across in a you know memorably in a in a recommendation in an essay.

The ideal sequence if you're an applicant, the sequence you want, and this is what I strive for with my clients, you want to have an essay that intrigues the reader. The essay can't be

the reader. The essay can't be encyclopedic. The the essay is short.

encyclopedic. The the essay is short.

You want to intrigue the the admission reader with your essay and then you want to blow them away with your recommendation.

That's the sequence in my view for a school like Stanford and I I imagine this is true of Harvard where you have so many highly highly

qualified applicants whose metrics and pedigrees are the same. very often the recommendation is the deciding factor and that's why I roughly think it's 60%

of the process. Our our director of admissions at that time used to say he could open up an application, read just the two letters and admit that person on the spot without reading

anything else but he could never do the other. He

could never read the essay and the resume and admit someone right? So essentially the reason for

right? So essentially the reason for that is these schools are looking for leaders and the recommendation is the transcript of the leadership.

So that's where in my opinion you really get the sheer impact of this applicant, right? You know, you applicants always

right? You know, you applicants always trying to index for that extra point of GPA or extra 10 points of of GMAT or you know point of GRE like were you ever

making a choice on the basis of GPA or GMAT?

No. The you basically this is not a math school. This is a a business school. You

school. This is a a business school. You

want to know the applicant can do the work. I actually had one client who had

work. I actually had one client who had done very well on the SATs and he got a 770 on his GMAT and he retook it the month later got a 780 and then he retook

it and got a 790 and he showed it to me.

He was thrilled and I looked at it and I said this is a bad look.

A top business school does not see that as a good use of time. Okay,

that it's this is this is not like getting into an IIT in India, right?

Where the very top grades get in or getting into Singwa in in China, right?

You need to have show you can do the work in the school not going to be an embarrassment and yes, if you have a higher score that's nice, but don't waste your time.

And as a reader, again, sort of trying to dispel a bit of a myth. If you have found if you had an applicant, you know, misspelled a, you know, typo, misspelled a professor's name, was that was that the end of the

game?

No. In fact, they're also hilarious misuses of words. You know, there many clients are writing in English as a foreign language. There was we had

foreign language. There was we had posted a lot of the really funny comments right that we saw. No, you if it's throughout

the application, it's a little more of a concern, but minor problems, no. I mean,

business schools don't sweat the small stuff.

What about what about the opposite? You

know overpolish non-genuine applications are really bad.

That perfectly written essay from a non-English-speaking applicant who doesn't speak well in person, that's a deal breaker, right? That's that's working with the

right? That's that's working with the wrong kind of consultant, right? Yeah, for sure.

right? Yeah, for sure.

I hate to say it. Yeah.

In fact, I often have this talk with my clients who do not speak English perfectly. I work with many

perfectly. I work with many international and I I will not change.

Yeah.

The way they speak. I won't clean it up.

I I'll correct their misspellings, but I'm not gonna if they're going to sound Russian Yeah.

when they interview, they're going to sound Russian in their essay.

Yeah. Like the idiosyncrasies of how they express themselves are important.

If you drop an article before, you know, before, you know, noun doesn't matter.

It's just leave it in.

Yeah.

Yeah. You've got to do that otherwise it just it starts to sound disingenuous or Yeah, for sure.

Or and now AI.

Yeah. Exactly. AI AI overpolishes it. It

adds the layer of genericism that you just you don't need. Like you take you take a you take an essay that has, you know, personality, you put it through AI and it basically systematically removes the personality from. Well, it turns

into a tell not shove.

Yeah, it's part of what it does. So, it's it's um Yeah, you have to be very genuine that you these schools are admitting leaders.

They know business students or expect business students aren't terrific writers, right?

It's not.

Yeah. They're trying to they're trying to get the essence of your personality and not get it something that's like they can, you know, put in the New Yorker as a piece of short fiction.

So, you know, you talked about getting a quota like one of every eight. Did that

vary from round? Were there were they did you get any instruction? Second

round we were swamped in first round.

You got to go to one of nine, one of 10.

Any No no they it we seem to always be growing. So if anything it got worse.

growing. So if anything it got worse.

Was there any there no direction from round to round?

Like applicants stress over this so much like oh is it too late I applied in the second round?

Oh there's a definite difference in applying rounds. Um if you're over

applying rounds. Um if you're over represented and that could be by your industry consultant, banker or your ethnicity, Indian, Chinese, you should definitely

apply in round one if you can. And the

reason is very simple. They when the school decides on that group, they will be filling twothirds of those quotas, right?

Over represented groups mean these these groups are being capped by the business school. So if you're applying round two,

school. So if you're applying round two, you're duking it out for the remaining third of of that category. And so it's you're just better off applying in first

round. Now, if you're not over

round. Now, if you're not over represented, if you're a oneofakind applicant, it doesn't matter which round you apply in.

Did they did they give you um you dual degree applications that that you had to read? Did you have to treat those

read? Did you have to treat those differently?

I had a lot of dual degree applications.

Um certainly you read the dual degree essay uh but you're not you know if they're applying like to the law school you're not reading the law essays. Um

they're not treated very differently.

The you know that's not one area where you do make a difference is if couples are applying. You know it's very very often

applying. You know it's very very often an applicant will indicate they're applying with their significant other or spouse. at Stanford that was an issue

spouse. at Stanford that was an issue because we are 3,000 miles away from most other business schools except for Berkeley. And so the you can't like go

Berkeley. And so the you can't like go to two schools and commute very easily.

That was either a pro or a con. If

you're both strong, right, it's a pro.

If one of you is strong and one of you is weak, you've got a single signal to them whether you're willing to be considered separately, right?

Like willing to commute, right? or neither of you will get the

right? or neither of you will get the invite. So,

invite. So, and there's always the applicant who's like, well, we don't want to we don't want to damage our chances, so we're going to note in there that we don't have to go to school together and that we're willing to accept our fate. And

then it's like that happens and they're like, well, now what do we do? We kind

of want to go to school together. So,

you kind of have to make that choice wisely and actually think about I talk to to clients about this very seriously because ahead of time because you you just have to be aware of it and

it's not the end of the world to commute. I mean most people find they

commute. I mean most people find they don't see each other much during business school anyway even if they're at the same school. So but it's I do talk to people about that.

Right.

So having sat on you know on on the reader side and then as a consultant I mean just talk about how that changed your perspective and how your how different your experience was.

Well as you probably remember it was awkward.

I found it hard because the minute I switched to the consulting role, which I wanted to do because I'd helped my daughter get into business school and some friends and I really enjoyed it,

I realized I was being too critical of the people I was working with. I was

seeing all the flaws and I all of a sudden had to have a mindset change to go, "Wait a minute.

I'm coaching them. I'm supposed to empower them and enhance them." Once I made that mindset shift, it was way more fun. I mean, I've got to say it was a

fun. I mean, I've got to say it was a lot more fun. But it is different. It is

a different role. And and it took me a while to get used to it. And it to realize that I was not the gatekeeper. I

was the person trying to expand opportunities for this person. And so it it you know, I made the shift and frankly like it much much more than turning down. I mean, one of the things

turning down. I mean, one of the things that was very frustrating at a school like Stanford was you were every time I admitted someone, I was turning down seven others and breaking their hearts, right?

And and I couldn't write a letter to them and explain why, you know. So, it's

I just found that I felt better as a human being.

Yeah. I mean, it's funny cuz I I I remembered the period you were talking about sort of like just the first couple of weeks where you were you were struggling. You were like, "Oh, I've got

struggling. You were like, "Oh, I've got to make a bit of a transition here." I

remember talking to you once about it. I

remember where I was.

It was really It's like a light bulb went off and I said, "Okay, I got this."

Yeah.

And then I loved it. But but the it's it's just And that's one thing I counsel anybody who joins our team who has admissions experience. I talk to them

admissions experience. I talk to them about it.

Yeah.

I say, "Watch out."

Yeah. And it's funny because like I feel like we've we've had a lot of over the years many admissions directors, officers who wanted to join our firm and it's it's sort of been heartbreaking to

turn some of them down because you know that they'd be you know help to attract clients and clients would want to work with them but like it's a very different skill set and some of them have just lack the ability to express themselves

creatively or lack the ability to connect in the same kind of way or or to coach. Like coaching is different than

coach. Like coaching is different than evaluating. It's just totally different.

evaluating. It's just totally different.

And you can evaluate a lot of people and still not be a good coach. Um, and uh, you know, that's like I don't know, it's probably a million analogies, but like not every athlete is is ready to make

the leap to to being the, you know, to being the coach of the team. It just

doesn't.

It's a very different job. Although

there is a carryover. I do think having worked in admissions helps me see how holistic the application is. um assess

chances of people that other people would think are unlikely.

You know, because one of the things Stanford did that made me so proud was we had a section called distinctive ads.

We gave a distinctive ad to typical immigrants. immigrants. You know,

immigrants. immigrants. You know,

California is an immigrant state and we had many students who moved here, didn't speak English in grammar school, bar went to a community college, he barely got into a four-year college for two

years and they thought, "Oh, I don't have a chance at Stanford, right?" And it was Stanford and I think

right?" And it was Stanford and I think all business schools to their credit are really, you know, philosophically committed to

giving laying leveling the playing field for those people. So, there's a lot you're doing that's very inspirational in this job and and I find that I'm able

to often pinpoint those applicants and help them get in in a way that, you know, someone who doesn't have that admissions experience might feel less confident.

What what's uh what's something applicants just get wrong about admissions officers? just get wrong

admissions officers? just get wrong about the process, you know, when they're looking from the outside, there's all a bundle of nerves, you know, what do you where do they just

completely misplace their focus or energy in this in their assumptions about the process itself or the people we're evaluating?

I try to explain to them that this is just a business school, right?

This is not like your ultimate evaluation in life, right?

You know, this is not God, right?

This is a business school. And and so I try to keep them grounded and I encourage them to look at other business schools and particularly if you know I just tell them flatly it's a long shot.

Stanford's a long shot for anyone. Just

look at the numbers. Yeah.

You know I you know you can't do much better than that.

You know I think that people are afraid to be themselves. Many

people come to me and say, "Well, I really want Stanford, so I'm going to say I want to be an entrepreneur, right?

Or I'm going to say I want to go into tech."

tech." Right?

That's the worst thing to do. You're

playing into I mean, Stanford's up to its neck in entrepreneurial and tech applications. They'd rather you were

applications. They'd rather you were from agriculture.

I mean, they're fields they don't have.

So, you never want to play to the school's strengths and and be someone you're not.

Yeah. It's really important to just say, "Okay, this is who I am. This is what I want to do, and these are the programs in your school that are going to help me." It's it be genuine.

me." It's it be genuine.

Yeah. You know, in in the book I wrote, the complete start to finish guide to NBA admissions, which is now available for free on our website. Uh and uh it just updated actually just went live today, the day of recording is the the

new update. I used to have um this quote

new update. I used to have um this quote at the end um which is no longer on the Stanford website, but which I I really liked and I I think we might even still reference it as being on the website as

still references as being historically having been on the website, but and I'm not going to get it precisely right, but it was it was from the it was from the admissions it was from former admissions director Derek Bolton and then it was

just attributed to admissions. Yeah. So

it's now it's just sort of was it was then it just attributed to admissions then it was ultimately I think removed for whatever reason but it said like because we wanted to get to know who you are resist the urge to package yourself

in a thin the way you think we would like you to come across. It was like such um such attempts simply blur our understanding of who you are and what you can accomplish. I think that's pretty close to what was written.

That's one of the biggest mistakes. It

it's really um and yet many people do that.

Yeah. They try to market themselves.

I love when an applicant says to me, "I'm applying to Harvard, um, Stanford, Wharton, and Columbia. Like, what should I be for each school?" You should be the same thing. Like, you can't be like a

same thing. Like, you can't be like a finance guy for Colombia and then an entrepreneur for Stanford. Like, there's

going to be there going to be so many disconnects with your abilities and skills.

Well, I always start my clients, no matter what schools they're applying to, we start with the Stanford. What matters

to you most and why.

That should never change.

Yeah. that you are one person.

It's the best essay question in the business in my opinion. And I make even my clients who are not applying to Stanford answer that question, right?

Because if you're looking for leaders, you want to know what's driving them and that gets at what's driving them, right?

So, it's it's just very it's a this is, you know, Harvard used to say just simply tell us who you are, what you want to do, and why you want to do it.

It's very genuine, straightforward experience. Just lay it out. There are

experience. Just lay it out. There are

no gimmicks. There's no there's nothing you need to do that's not genuine.

And it's, you know, if I have a an accountant from a foreign country who's very prosaic, not at all creative, he's going to write an essay that sounds like him,

right?

You you just have to be who you are. If

if you've gotten this far being who you are, don't mess it up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Don't don't try to be someone you're not. It it's

not. It it's it's either going to work or there's another school that's one of my favorite clients of all time.

And his his essay his what matters most essay is in our book of what matters most essays which is available on our website. Um and he took a serious risk.

website. Um and he took a serious risk.

I mean he he wrote about how he wrote about about truth and like yeah that's something like a lot of people can write about. Um but he he he wrote about it

about. Um but he he he wrote about it like his first paragraph you can look up it's under the the essay under Lucash.

It's slightly disguised. It's not a fellow named Lucash. Um but you know he wrote about how he was such a man of science that in his in his very

religious country he felt it critical to be true to himself to have his name removed from the baptismal book to to to to declare himself to be an atheist in his religious country and it was like

definitely a risk and we talked about it as a risk but it was so true to who he was and everything else flowed from that like he talked about how how he as an as

an equity research Arch analyst called that a fraud because he he was he was so certain that the numbers that they were presenting could not be accurate. His

research had proven that you couldn't have margins like that or revenue like that or revenue growth or something. And

those he he had one or two other moments of he talked about he picked the toughest advisor in his PhD uh program because that person was going to be the hardest on him and give him the truth and push me his best. and he connected

these themes in a way that was so sincere and yes he took risks but it was just so fundamentally true to who he was. There was I mean there was no

was. There was I mean there was no aspect of pandering of course with someone with a story so frank um and it was just I was like wow this is binary like they're either going to get this or

they're not and they did you know and and Harvard Harvard didn't and Wharton did and you know just the way it was.

Yeah. No it's it's really important.

I've taken a lot or supported my clients and taken a lot of those risks and it's it's it really it's it's actually is to the school's credit.

Yeah. Yeah. I was I that's exactly right. When he got admitted I was like

right. When he got admitted I was like good for them.

Exactly.

Good for them that they saw this. Good

for them that they they knew that like you weren't a rabble rouser. you were

just someone who like really had a strong core level of conviction and you it just it was like deeply empowering to you and you know yeah it was a little bit of a risk but he took it and then he was again so true to himself he's like I

I have to take it because this is who I am he's like I don't want to pretend to be anything but who I am that's what I'm writing about so I've got to I've got to live question yeah exactly okay so let's

before we wrap up if you have if there's like one area of emphasis or one piece of advice that you're going to give to applicants what's it going to I think that's very hard. I mean, I

obviously have lots of pieces of advice, but you cannot dial your way into this school. You can't dial your way into

school. You can't dial your way into Harvard. So, so I think it's really

Harvard. So, so I think it's really important to be realistic.

Make your best shot at it. Shoot for the moon. You know, I've had many people

moon. You know, I've had many people where we both agreed it's a real long shot and they've gotten in. I think it's it's really frankly the best advice I

would give which I'd give to anyone is step back see yourself in perspective realize this is just a business school

you can probably achieve whatever it is you're saying you want to achieve many different ways and go into it with that in mind realizing this is one op one door there are other doors

right and and then give it your best shot uh Another thing I do, and this is a sort of a humorous ending, the don't

underestimate the value of human contact with the admissions committee, and I'm going to give two short examples. One, I

had an athlete who was 6'7, who was very successful athlete. He he didn't want to

successful athlete. He he didn't want to bother to drive 2 hours to go to this, you know, mission session. He said,

"What you think I should go?" And I said, "Well, what do you think I'd do?"

So, he ended up going. And it was a rainy night so it was not many people attended and the director of admissions from Stanford was there who loves sports.

They hit it off and this guy, my client actually wanted to go to Harvard. He

ended up going to Stanford. Then I have a second example which is even more fun.

A Chinese immigrant client who came here with his mother. They were so poor he quit high school and helped her run her

ceram ceramics company. He then went back got his GED.

Finally went to Berkeley when he was 26 to 27 graduated with a four I think actually he was older than that 27 28 and he graduated finally at age 28. So

he called me and he said do you think I'd be a good deferred applicant to Stanford?

This guy was a character. He just jumped off the the Zoom call. And I said, "Huh?" I said, "You know, this would be

"Huh?" I said, "You know, this would be a really good question to ask Stanford."

I he lived in California. I said, "Why don't you go down to an admission tour, have the tour, which go to the admission session with you, and introduce yourself,

right? and ask them this question and

right? and ask them this question and tell them your situation because I knew since Stanford valued this immigrant path

that if they met him right he got in and and I said ask them whether you should apply deferred or regular right they said apply regular he got in right he got in right away right

and it I knew the minute they met him this would happen and don't ever underestimate the impact of a personal right contact.

And and by the same token, don't go running down to the admissions committee trying to make your connection. You've

got to like happen organically. Yeah.

It's got to be organic.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. This has been great. I I feel I hope that applicants

great. I I feel I hope that applicants uh who are applying the GSP have watched it. My sense is this will be one of our

it. My sense is this will be one of our more popular videos.

I'm afraid it might.

Uh thanks so much for whether it be popular or not, but I don't need a lot of calls.

Well, you can still have a free half hour with Katie. You can have one with me. You can have one with my co-host,

me. You can have one with my co-host, Harold Samsky. Um, we always enjoy

Harold Samsky. Um, we always enjoy meeting applicants. We love people's

meeting applicants. We love people's stories.

I love talking to people. Yeah, I

actually love doing free consultations.

Yeah, you meet so many fascinating people. There's one of the rare jobs. I

people. There's one of the rare jobs. I

mean, is there any other job where you in a week you can meet 20 people from around the world who are just who just have each have their own amazing stories? It's just great.

stories? It's just great.

It's amazing.

Yeah. Thanks so much for joining us.

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