Insilico Terminal Podcast Episode 16 - Denis, CEO of Insilico Terminal

Welcome to a new episode of the Incilico Terminal podcast.

Today I have with me our dear CEO and glorious leader Dennis. Actually, I

don't really know what how to how to do this now because like usually I ask the people how how do you like introduce yourself?

>> I mean, I'm not I'm not sure he does to be honest. Like, I'm just D, you know,

be honest. Like, I'm just D, you know, I've been here for a while now. Um, I

guess most people that are going to be listening to chat kind of know me from, you know, uh, CT and whatnot. I just

mainly write code and kind of make sure that, you know, the terminal operations are running smoothly. So, yeah. Uh,

that's mainly me, I guess.

Maybe we can talk a bit about the the story how you got to to be to to start working at the terminal, how you became co, stuff like that.

>> Yeah, I mean I've been I've been on city for quite some time. I think my account is from 2017 and whatnot. Um I got into crypto because I got scammed by some

weird ass Bulgarian crypto scam or something like that. And I was like really wondering like yo what the [ __ ] is this uh crypto all about? And I kind

of joined for a bunch of stuff and um I was just like following Trip on Twitter and uh what's his name Jim as well and I was like in some red longs at at the

time and they were like kind of making fun that he's going to be like fall off a cliff and whatnot and I kind of my shorts like yeah let me just follow Trip to see like what's he on about and >> after a couple of months or so I kind of

seen that they have like business the terminal and whatnot. I've seen Azid his account that he was managing everything and I gave him a follow. Um I was working as a developer at some startups

in Dubai back then >> and um you know uh they just posted on Twitter that yo we're hiring and I was like you know that's my [ __ ] chance to kind of

you know remain in the industry and also do something that's like more mile away because I was I was kind of young back then I didn't know how to trade. I

didn't understand markets. I don't know >> uh what all of these purps are like what the math behind is like nothing basic. I

don't know how exchanges work like how most of crypto works and what not. So

just let me just uh >> uh you know um see see if uh if I'm a fit but you know thankfully for the most part uh initially back then most of the

terminal uh workload was you know take this exchange integrated you know it's got like this uh API behind it just read the docs send some payloads to the exchange and that's it. That was before

we kind of did the, you know, complex order forms, all this like super complex weird [ __ ] that's like right now in the turner.

>> And I remember there were like quite some people that applied for the job, but like I told Azie that I don't want to be stuck forever uh writing, you know, like simple Excel rappers around

like my entire tech career. So he kind of like took a liking to me, I guess, and said like, you know, yeah, [ __ ] take the job. And, you know, I've been I've been productive since day one on the codebase. like I'm I'm just, you

the codebase. like I'm I'm just, you know, uh just like that. I'm him

basically. So

yeah, it was fun. Uh they kept throwing more [ __ ] at me and I kept like making it every single [ __ ] time, man. But

it was it was quite stressful in the beginning cuz I I didn't know much [ __ ] >> But you know, I kind of uh grew up around the ecosystem and I know the ins and outs of like uh why the ter behaves

in certain way. And then we started hiring more people and more people and as you obviously said Dennis, you're going to be [ __ ] managing everything now. Congrats. And yeah, I've been uh

now. Congrats. And yeah, I've been uh managing the client side. Uh then I started managing the back end side as well.

And you know, slowly slowly I got into kind of uh finding out you know new prospects about hiring, doing the interviews and slowly work my way up to

uh the top. I mean the team was kind of like uh slim in the beginning just me Azie uh Denny on the infrastructure side as well on the back end >> and uh obviously as we on boarded new

people Azie being like the [ __ ] M developer he's his time is like much better spent writing code and managing everybody else I was like yeah I can I can just like show them the roofs around and whatnot. So that became kind of my

and whatnot. So that became kind of my full-time job alongside writing all this code.

>> Mhm.

Were you not like intimidated by uh like your lack of of as you said trading knowledge in the beginning to work on a software that like requires quite intricate knowledge of >> I mean I was I mean I still am sometimes

like we get these new weird I mean each exchange has like their own implementation but like where it's a clean slate and you don't think you kind of expect of yourself to kind of know everything but just like it's not going to happen like you're never going to

know anything cuz everything cuz everybody has like a different implementation of it and at the end of the day just like make it work. I I I think everybody gets like imposter

syndrome at some point, but like I don't think that there's like a perfect developer or like a perfect manuh or like a perfect trader like any perfect type of like archetype that just going

to be like perform uh exceptionally at first. You just have to work your way to it. So like I got like a lot of code reviews and a lot of uh chatting about the ins and outs of

exchanges with Azie with you know other u higher uh experienced developers and you know it just uh it becomes second

nature after a while.

>> I'm curious like how how much of the terminal would you say is like now made by you and like what's the percentage?

>> I have that. Yes. because you've been here like for quite a while now and like >> I have stats. Yeah. Um that's why I don't allow other developers to kind of

um use auto formatterers mostly because it's going to [ __ ] up my stats and I'm really proud of the amount of code I put in. So I really don't want them just

in. So I really don't want them just like oh I auto for five so just like 5,000 lines I >> Yeah. Um

>> Yeah. Um but like it's a fair amount of um it's pretty amount of code. I think internal has like more than a million lines of code at this point across uh all the repos.

>> Mhm.

>> And yeah and see approved.

So insights uh contributors.

So I've contributed with a total of roughly 300,000 lines of code. It's

actually 265,000.

>> Azie has 315,000.

>> Um >> so he's not quite caught up yet.

>> Yeah. But I mean as you kind of wrote the first version is like the core uh stuff and we just keep adding and merging and doing stuff on top of it.

>> J is also like quite high. J has like 160,000 lines added and 270,000 lines deleted but it's also like a lot of uh

you know boilerplate or like config files that are like just regenerated and whatnot is not like an extremely accurate depiction of like how much

you've contributed generally. Yeah,

>> it also depends on like the style of development because usually what I used to do uh beforehand is just like I would make like two or three commits on a feature that has like a thousand changes like you know and as you would just like

commit every single line of change that he does. Obviously, it's a gross uh

he does. Obviously, it's a gross uh uh misrepresentation, but Jam has done like a lot of commits and like larger commits because that's how I kind of like to do it. Going to check everything

I'm working on, but like it kind of depends on the style.

>> I see interesting insights into like the the >> Yeah. And this is just like one it's one

>> Yeah. And this is just like one it's one of our like 15 repos that are kind of like microser that are working together.

>> Yeah.

I think like uh do you do you still do do you trade? I feel like we should talk a bit about your trading before we like lose everyone here that doesn't care about anything.

>> Yeah, I mean >> yeah know it makes sense. I mean I'm not necessarily like a day trader. I don't

trade that much mostly because I kind of have to manage the operations and trading is like quite extensive like you have to pay attention at what's happening. Obviously when markets are

happening. Obviously when markets are moving you kind of set >> uh alerts and whatnot to kind of like yo it's like an area of interest of mine

let me just trade it. I used to trade uh more or more actively in past couple of months or so but generally my trading revolves around like buying spot uh

selling spot and you know just hedging with perks sometimes that's all.

>> Mhm.

So you don't really have any fancy strategies where you just like >> No, I mean not really to be honest like that. I

don't do any complex orders uh in that regard and no not much.

I mean I kind of collected a bunch of knowledge in sense that a lot of like stuff I want to kind of breed and integrate in my trading and whatnot but I I don't have the time to be honest to

kind of properly sit down and study for you know extensive periods of time like two three five weeks six month you know >> months of the time to kind of you know uh >> quickly

you break up I just got phone call >> yeah yeah you're back you're Yeah.

>> Um, >> yeah. So,

>> yeah. So, >> what is it like to be Or you want to finish said?

>> Yeah, I know. I was just like I was just tripping up. It's just like um obviously

tripping up. It's just like um obviously I know I'm not like uh an extremely smart or sophisticated purpose trader in the sense that I know how markets are going to behave or like properly

position myself. I don't analyze like

position myself. I don't analyze like micro movements in the sense that oh I check Excel with all of the exchanges see where the markets are moving or what not. I would do it. I'm not doing it. So

not. I would do it. I'm not doing it. So

I don't really have any specific trading sites. I mean because I kind of develop

sites. I mean because I kind of develop like the internal development version is always on my screen. I kind of see where uh when prices are like you know it's obviously skewed. I can just take a long

obviously skewed. I can just take a long or short year and whatnot but it's it's not like my main source of income so to say.

I mean, I guess if you if you know how to develop everything in the terminal, it's like you know enough about trading for someone that doesn't do it as like his full-time thing or doesn't really

like spend that much time on it.

>> Yeah, you can say that I guess.

>> I'm curious what what has like changed since you became the CEO, which has been like not that like quite recent still for now.

>> I I think I mean it is sort of recent. I

think mostly what changed is that now I have to kind of keep the relations with all the exchanges with the BDS with the partners >> going to make sure that you know everything's like nice and stable. Uh

chat with our you know VIP traders we have like channels all of their concerns kind of like you know >> um make sure they're like uh don't wait in uh

client for responses because obviously uh we are mostly oriented towards whales and sophisticated people. they like a certain type of service you kind of have to take care of them. Um

>> Mhm.

>> it's became mostly my job to do so. uh

obviously new exchange integration so I kind of have to kind of deal with all of the new onboarding processes uh contracts documents but it's a lot of

bureaucracy that uh I didn't know uh it was so uh how do you say uh I I didn't expect it to be this much paperwork but it's an insane amount of

paperwork >> and obviously you have to check with legal you have to check with all of these uh other areas of a normal business uh payroll whatnot

thinking of like strategy where where does the product go which are good ideas which are bad ideas uh you know make sure people kind of have something to work on that nobody's slacking um you

can you have to iterate over everything it's like but you know thankfully we've got like a properly nice uh team that is actually also pushing out

all right code correct code doesn't break as much as I'd expect it to uh >> our QA department is doing an amazing job. Uh cuz you know we don't we don't

job. Uh cuz you know we don't we don't really allow any AI code to kind of go through. I I just you know if it's

through. I I just you know if it's slower just be slower but like make sure it's correct. Uh we don't do any

it's correct. Uh we don't do any automated testing because like it's extremely hard to kind of uh create all of these uh scenarios that generally a trader would do. So we kind of test

everything manually in house. That's why

we have tested as we have uh you know beta programs and all that stuff that we have to make sure that you know there's like a conscious observer that verifies everything that goes to production.

>> Mhm.

Would you uh how do you think about like I I think the paperwork and all of that stuff sounds like the most annoying to me personally. Like I'm very glad I

me personally. Like I'm very glad I don't really have to deal that much with stuff like that in what I do. But uh I recently actually thought um without like doxing you or anything but like

we're like similar in a similar age range.

>> Um and I I thought it's actually kind of impressive that you deal with all the responsibilities of being like the CEO because if I like I do I do my job and it's like of course I want to do a good

job but like if I like [ __ ] up then it doesn't it's not the end of the world or whatever. But like how do you deal with

whatever. But like how do you deal with like the the added responsibility of like being there for people's jobs and and the future of the company and all of that stuff?

>> I mean you know um it is like a lot of stress to be honest. Uh you have to make sure that you know we are like the treasury is properly managed. Uh we have like a proper runway. We don't run out

of money. Uh us being free, we kind of

of money. Uh us being free, we kind of rely on user activity to kind of you know trade through exchanges and on the exchanges based kind of make sure that you know the operations are um are all

right. Uh that's like one thing that

right. Uh that's like one thing that people should understand about hyper liquid we don't want to charge the build FP but as long as you guys you know that users want new features on hyper liquid one stuff like that something has to

kind of like provide the uh development towards it because we've invested a lot of stuff in the uh in terms of research and development and infrastructure and

whatnot for getting the hyperlid nonver code up. uh you know that's why we have

code up. uh you know that's why we have one of the fastest uh order books uh amongst the terminals. I'm not sure who else has died but yeah it's always uh extremely tough to

kind of manage the risks and the decisions I kind of make in sense of like yeah we're going to do this no we're not going to do that >> because it's it's I don't know um I also come from a family of entrepreneurs

generally speaking so we are uh we are not extremely how do I say we take a lot of risk like >> it is what it is at the end of the day I'm going to do the best uh job I can uh that's why we consult with legal that's

why we kind of research all of the uh stuff that do kind of make sure it's all you know all right and it's like safe and yeah um I think since I came as co

stuff has been slowing down a little bit in terms of uh development but that's mostly an okay thing because the things that we kind of uh currently have in the reps for the future of terminal are like

>> extremely important that we don't [ __ ] that up you know uh hopefully by the time this podcast out you know the news is going to be out uh I'm talking mostly about the new execution engine that's

going to allow us to execute algos without user being present on the website and you know that engine has been we have invested like quite a lot of money and time in it. It's been under

development for a couple of months and uh as soon as that's as soon as that's out we're going to finally be able to kind of uh make some nice mobile apps something that we've been lacking. If

you take a look at the top builders on Hyper Liquid, everybody has mobile app.

We don't mostly because we aren't relying on Hyperlid's engine to run the T webss or chases or anything like that.

It's all built in house. And u you know now we're just going to be able to >> uh have it on our own and just develop all of these new crazy uh stuff. I think

we we're just also going to add uh Telegram bot as well to kind of view positions and give you information about uh your current exposure, positions, orders. Um we can also set alerts to

orders. Um we can also set alerts to kind of give you like price alerts or like also indicator alerts whatever you kind of want and yeah tie that to the execution mobile apps.

>> Mhm.

>> You know yeah it's going to be awesome.

>> Yeah I think u many many of the people many of our users are really looking forward to that as I am myself. I feel

like maybe that's actually a good uh thing to to talk about. we could like review a bit what we did so far this year and then we can talk a bit more about the the um back and algo stuff and

then maybe about like what we're going to do in the future.

>> I was really bothered to assume that I remember most of the stuff that we've done this year. I know people kind of have like a mental model of what they've worked on like you know it's there's so much stuff that we're constantly working

on. I I you know even the new stuff was

on. I I you know even the new stuff was done couple of weeks ago we just kept doing it. I thought it was released

doing it. I thought it was released wasn't released. uh you know it just

wasn't released. uh you know it just like I don't know do you have a list of things we've kind of launched cuz there's a lot of like small >> you see you don't either >> I honestly I I I honestly hope that like

we would figure it out again >> I mean we don't us like you >> stuff complex order form um what else >> yeah the complex orders is like a huge

thing what else did we do >> uh some updates in the position closer stuff running multiple chase at the same time it was kind of like last December But can also be bit this year as well.

>> Moses all sorts of like small stuff that improves the quality.

>> Um I don't think we've done any new exchange integrations. That's that those

exchange integrations. That's that those are planned for January and February. Um

>> Mhm.

>> next year.

>> I think development this year has been like a little bit slower or I guess like not that many like huge new features. I

guess like I mean we did the complex orders which is like a very huge thing which allowed you to like create baskets and trade those all at the same time >> and now yesterday we got the news feature which I also think is pretty huge.

>> It was on the rebrand this year actually which is was >> Oh yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I I swore it must have been like something big.

>> Yeah. I mean you have to understand like wasn't launched a year ago or like two years ago. It was launched like four

years ago. It was launched like four years ago. And you know you have to keep

years ago. And you know you have to keep up with the tech with the underlying tech as well. We had to do some framework upgrades and those are like extremely painful to do because it touches absolutely everything that you

do on the back end and on the front end as well and um there's a lot of people that have been asking for new order types which are under development but again we are launching this new engine and I kind of decided to kind of eat

[ __ ] for a couple of months and not release any new order types because I don't want to integrate an order type for an old engine and then have to kind of rewrite the same code for the new engine as well. So then they have to be

smart about like you know keep the engage with like new features >> uh you know like small stuff of like autop you know complex weather is like a big thing but

>> uh generally you kind of have to make like way like okay what's actually needed and what's actually smarter to develop later down the line right so um

yeah it's it's it's a lot of stuff that you're working on at the same time um and you know uh from our like some other stuff that I can't really disclose right now cuz I just want to make sure that

the beta is ready for it. But like

there's like a lot of new directions in which the terminal is going and they're all going to be available like next year.

Yeah, remember like um with the rebrand stuff and all of that how like it's kind of difficult if you have a huge new change and then you want to like add other stuff during the way >> as well. But you always have to have

have to keep in mind that there's like this huge thing that is like coming and if you like add too many other things during it, then you kind of like you need to to kind of postpone everything

just so so that you can release a huge thing at once and then you you can just keep going again with like smaller changes.

>> Yeah. And every small change that you make in the old version is going to like trickle down in conflicts in the new version and it's just going to slow down even worse the progress that you're doing. So you kind of have to pick your

doing. So you kind of have to pick your battles when it comes to software development.

>> I don't know. I've been working on software for such a long time and I don't really mind all of these uh roadblocks that we kind of made for ourselves.

But uh if you haven't, uh built any software before and you just think, "Oh yeah, just like at the bottom on the screen, like how difficult can that be?"

Like well it's >> there's like so much [ __ ] that has to go into kind of uh figure out and make sure that it doesn't break anything else, uh that it works uniformly across all exchanges. The more exchanges we add,

exchanges. The more exchanges we add, the slower we're going to be mostly because you have to kind of keep uh the feature set up to par with all these exchanges.

I mean one one more thing that we launched this year is also the podcast I guess which is not really a feature but it's still like an additional thing for the for about podcast like there's a lot of mutual on city and they come and talk

about their trading. I I hope uh our you know listeners have like uh taken something from it you know I I I really like the Scott Phillips one uh it was

like amazing insight in like the game they've done.

>> Yeah me too. Um, so yeah, I I'm really looking forward like the next guests.

Uh, I hope you're not going to be running out of guests. It'd be awesome to have like Sam Firect from prison, but that's not going to happen.

>> I mean, who knows? Who knows? Maybe he

will get the the pardon or whatever or we're going to do like the prison phone call episode or something like that. I

don't think we're going to run out of guests anytime soon. And I got a lot of good ones for for I'm very excited actually myself for like next year and who we're going to get on without like glazing myself or whatever it's at all.

But it's just fun to do. So it's like I'm I'm happy if I can do it more and if people like it then it's even better.

>> Yeah. I mean

>> and um Yeah. But the the rebrand was like a huge thing. That was like the biggest change that we made this year.

think like there were some people I feel like with changes always people were like hate it at the beginning but then like I I honestly kind of forgot what the old UI even looked like at this

point and I really like like the new UI like I'm very happy that we did all of that and it's just like >> yeah likewise I mean we had some users that requested that we put up the old version as well but there were like some

really big changes uh between the framework upgrades that I mentioned and you know it just it just didn't work man just like it didn't work out like I can't spin up the old version mostly because the authentication is going to

be an issue. So, you know, to all of our users that are kind of want the old one, I'm sorry. I I just can't boot it up. I

I'm sorry. I I just can't boot it up. I

can't be merging so many versions of the same software at the same time. We are

still like a slim team. Uh I think we have a total of like 12 developers. Uh

and yeah, I think that's all. So, you

kind have to be smart with the resources and I also don't want to be expanding the team. takes some time for to be

the team. takes some time for to be productive on the code base. As I've

said, there's like millions of lines of code and it's it's just like I don't want to be baby sick anyway at the moment. I just want to go and uh attack

moment. I just want to go and uh attack the uh new challenges that we've kind of catered for ourselves. But I think I think hopefully by the end of Q1 and Q2, most of the stuff that we have under

apps is going to be finished and then we can finally start expanding our um order types again. Uh it's going to be uh

types again. Uh it's going to be uh we're going to have like V webs of like complex >> uh new P webses iceberg or there's all of the fun stuff that um you don't get

as natively on exchanges. Some exchanges

have kind of caught up to us and implemented uh their own versions of these order types and for example by already has iceber and whatnot and we don't support them. Uh mostly because we want to build our own uh iceber and

whatnot. I think that'd be much more

whatnot. I think that'd be much more much more interesting than just plug into an exchange and just letting them do all the hard work.

>> Will like the new order types be the main focus for like the beginning of the year except from like maybe exchanges, exchange integrations.

>> Um I think so. So, uh, the new engine obviously takes, uh, has went through a lot of, uh, Q&A and a lot of testing, and we're not going to be launching it for all of the existing exchanges mostly

because some of these exchanges we there's like not there simply very few people trading on it and I don't think the demand is going to be as much. So, we cannot focus on

buy bit and hyperlit initially because that's u where most people like to trade. Binance is a special case.

trade. Binance is a special case.

There's a lot of Binance users as well.

But like you know it's it's Binance uh they like to change their API and do like crazy stuff. So that's going to be a little bit later down the line. So as

as soon as we have uh as soon as we have like a production stable ready version of the backend algos um our back end link Kai is going to be focusing on adding the new order types

as uh that I've mentioned because those have been heavily requested and at the same time I think uh our second biggest focus is going to be mobile apps like we're going to try and uh create new

user experience on mobile that most of these apps uh don't have. They're all

extremely simple trading apps. Uh you

can't really do as much as uh I would personally like to do on them and uh we have to do a lot of research in terms of like how do you present like on a small

interface this like best amount of uh complex orders that we have.

>> It's going to be a challenge. Uh it's

going to be insanely difficult in some parts. Um, but I think I think we have

parts. Um, but I think I think we have the the right thing to kind of u attack and innovate in the mobile trading area space.

>> Yeah, I'm definitely really looking forward to that. I think mobile is a good way to expand and it's also just nice to because the terminal allows you to like have all of your exchange accounts at once without even needing

like the app or whatever. So it would be nice even to just like look at it more while you're uh outside or whatever and don't have access to your PC.

>> Yeah, for sure. Um and you know uh having a native mobile app on a mobile device is going to allow us to you know to push uh information about the user

trading accounts much much better um compared to like you know we currently have a website if it's closed you can't get any insights on what's happening through the but like as soon as we have a mobile app and a back end engine

>> then you know it's always going to be there with you and you know um it's going to be much much easier to kind react to market movements and to react to your account get created for example

and stuff like that. It's going to be much uh much much easier and you know we've been thinking about this move for quite some time and uh I'm really really glad that we're like nearing the

inception of dominating the mobile trading space.

>> Mhm.

I think we should definitely like make explicit as well how how big like the back end algo change will be because like right now you just have to have the terminal open at all times to do anything like if you have a T-wob or

whatever you always need to have it open so it can be executed but that change will allow you to like run any order type and anything that you want while not having the terminal open itself.

>> Oh yeah, >> you don't even like need to be one present or whatever. Yeah, one feature of the back end logo that we haven't mentioned is the ability to set triggers. So, what that basically is

triggers. So, what that basically is going to allow you is generally if you want to set a tap right now, you just go on a tap on Hyper Lip and then just they're just going to run it for you or like even a stop market order like a

limit order. You're just going to have

limit order. You're just going to have to post them onto the exchange where you know everybody can can see the order.

But our new engine is going to is going to allow you to post orders with us and they're going to get triggered u by a certain condition whether if a certain volume gets hit or if like a price gets

hit or like time expiration stuff and it's all of these like complex order that you're used to for example you know when Bitcoin crosses you know 90,000 start chase start a chase uh long or

whatever something that most of these um dating apps don't have uh mostly because the infrastructure required for it is is insane. Generally, our app is written

is insane. Generally, our app is written in JavaScript, but for the sake of speed, performance and all of the fancy words of like a properly reliable and

you know, highly availability software, we've kind of introduced some Go as well, mostly because it's like it can it can do some stuff faster than JavaScript. So,

JavaScript. So, uh yeah, I think offline triggers are going to be like a really really big hit.

>> Uh mostly because you can pair them with liquidations as well. for example, y if there's like $100 million market liquidation in the past five minutes start chasing me in you know and these

are these are like u dynamics that u yeah and imagine that uh being available on like a nice mobile app that's going to be [ __ ] dope.

>> Yeah, but even even on desktop that's like already kind of insane. Like many

people have always asked for for conditions, triggers, this that like more advanced things and you will basically be able to do just like everything that you >> Yeah.

>> would need as a retail person.

>> Is it difficult to kind of make that in a easily digestible format for the users to kind of use and see and understand, you know, intuitively what the UI is telling me, what what's going to happen.

Oh, and like a nice thing as well is that um you can uh do ratios. For

example, if BTC sold is at a certain uh whatever number, you're going to be able to bend a trigger based on like all sorts of like these complex uh triggers

between uh different assets. So yeah,

kudos to Kai and Braden for working hard on the uh on the feature. I kind of wanted to work on it, but sadly my new position has requested my attention in like different areas of the business.

And I'm really really glad that we kind of left them with them. they have like a strong backend experience. So, it's

gonna be tight. It's gonna be tight.

>> Yeah. I I I can't I can't wait until I'm I'm able to use all of that myself or until it's like properly out in production. Of course, we have to do a

production. Of course, we have to do a lot of testing and whatever because with uh user funds and whatever on the line, we need to make sure that the the quality is >> up, which is maybe like also a thing

that sometimes like >> slow because people always ask for so much stuff like they want this, they want that exchange, they want this feature, whatever. But it's also like

feature, whatever. But it's also like even with the complexity that you talked about earlier, but we also need to make sure that it's like everything is working properly up to our standards which are very high and have always been

very high in the past which with all our our uptime and and everything working well and it it needs to be like that forever. So because I I don't want to

forever. So because I I don't want to lose money because the terminal [ __ ] up as a as a user even and >> it's very important that we like >> that's one of the reasons why I kind of also slow down development. I mean I

don't care if I don't push feature out.

It's better that you know the feature is not out but we are kind of properly testing it. Um

testing it. Um yeah normally in a normal company or like normal uh traditional set of like tech companies uh people just want to

like crazy yeah just go uh do things fast break stuff but like you know you reach a point in which you kind of have to kind of weigh the benefits of like being first and the benefits of like maintaining the quality of your

software. So I think we kind of reached

software. So I think we kind of reached the point where we do want to kind of uh maintain the quality but also the speed but there's like some sessions you have to make in order to maintain your status

as like you know that's a properly better test software.

>> I mean we're not really like a social media thing or whatever where you can just like move fast and and break things or like we need to do stuff to increase our token price or anything like that.

It just like >> Yeah. No thankfully

>> Yeah. No thankfully >> works so that it keeps working.

>> Yeah. public disclosure, we're never launching a token. I don't see the reason to kind of launch the token. Um,

there's no reason, there's no point in it. I I I'll never understand like why

it. I I I'll never understand like why somebody would launch a token.

>> You just took that I just wanted to make a joke that we're going to launch one, but like you just took that away from me like as a as a Christmas gift to everyone. But our Christmas gift is that

everyone. But our Christmas gift is that we're never going to launch a token.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> But you get all of the other nice features, so you should still be happy.

maybe you can like make money from trading and increase your profitability a little bit. So

>> yeah, >> that's like a nice gift to to give as well.

>> Yeah, I was thinking at some point to kind of launch some tokens uh mostly because you have all of these uh other onchain meme terminals, you know, and they pick up absolutely any token that

kind of gets uh launched on all of these like blockchains. And I was thinking

like blockchains. And I was thinking that maybe maybe I should launch like you know a thousand uh tokens at the same time on you know Solana through

pal.1 uh with all call like trade

pal.1 uh with all call like trade through in silicico one 23 and whatnot because then all of these onchainers that auto crawl all these like tokens they would just get like spammed with

all of them you know like free advertising.

>> I mean more or less free I guess.

>> Yeah. like it's like extremely cheap to launch token nowadays instead.

>> Yeah.

>> Have you traded any be coins generally speaking or are you just like more of a per tra?

I have used pump fun before like like once or twice or something like I remember back then when Alon was still in everyone's DMs like he DM' me as well like last January I think

>> when I first launched like he just DM'd everyone basically and and then uh I've looked at it before and I've like shown it to my IRL friends don't really have anything to do with crypto but for them

it's like fun to do or whatever. I've

made like money once from buying a memecoin, but honestly I I kind of hate trading meme coins because like you you love gambling, but I hate gambling. And

for me, it's kind of like just buying lottery tickets.

So, I don't know. I don't

>> I mean, you kind of trade attention and you kind of hope that one of these tokens that you're sending will just like pick up into the, you know, general mind share and then it's just going to like fly.

>> Yeah. But then it's still it's still so it's such a negative sum game which you can see by now because it's like just overrun by insiders at some point because like if an event happens or like

something is there like anyone can just there like 50 meme coins for just for that event. So you never know which one

that event. So you never know which one is going to be like the the biggest one or only the one that has like the most amount of of incentivized people behind it that are going to push it. And then

>> it's like a different game than what you actually think you're doing because you're not trading just the attention but also like what other people are doing like other participants.

>> I mean, yeah, meme coins are extremely useless, you know.

I don't know. It just I've never seen the appeal to it. I like to take it mostly because it was like extremely fun. I did make some money on them, but

fun. I did make some money on them, but like it was nothing uh life-changing or anything like I think most amount of money I've made on was

like 20 or 3K. Uh just like purely luck.

I there was like one win coin is called like cheesecoin or some [ __ ] like that.

I put in like 100 200 bucks and it went up to like 15k and I didn't sell. I

don't know why I didn't [ __ ] sell in hindsight seems like obvious to [ __ ] sell >> but like I was like no [ __ ] that cheese is going to like take over the world.

>> Like yeah >> I just like having like the illusion at least that I like have control over what I'm doing or at least like in trading I mean you kind of have control over your risk management and all of that stuff.

And I guess you also have that with meme coins, but it's like it it just feels better when it when what I'm doing feels a bit more logical than just like buying random [ __ ] and hoping it will go up.

Even though if that's what I'm doing, but it's like at least I can tell myself like, "Hey, I'm I'm doing this."

>> Yeah. No, I get it.

>> It's like less of a waste of time.

>> Yeah, I get it. I mean, even with trading pers, you know, um I kind of expect if you take a look at any given exchange, they have like hundreds of per

uh hundreds of perspited and whatnot.

But if you actually take a look at Hyper Tracker or like uh any insight into like which assets are mostly traded, it's always like the top three or two that are like taking like

80% of the volume across the market in my opinion. Uh cuz I used to trade like

my opinion. Uh cuz I used to trade like you know like on pers and whatnot on hyperlook for the I used to trade like Farcoin and all of these random s tokens and then I I I kind of looked at hyper

tracker and I saw like wait actually most of our traders are actually only trading Bitcoin with you knows Bitcoin ETH and major ones which kind of makes sense but then again like why are all

these exchanges listing all of these doshit contracts? I guess they just want

doshit contracts? I guess they just want to have like some fees for a short period of time, but like volume dies down so easily. It's insane. Insane.

And everybody's just like fighting for the you know major volume kind of uh mind share I guess.

I mean >> maybe maybe we can we can talk about that a bit as well. like what what do do you have an opinion on like the future uh exchange landscape of like I guess

centralized exchanges will like fade a little bit in in relevancy but do you think like decentralized exchanges will take over do do you think hyperlquid will take over everything do you think

other decentralized exchanges also have a chance what's your view on that >> well I kind of think about it um

I don't know I think you know I might say something extremely stupid but like if you are a trader and if you're like a proper you know uh serious trader

that you take trading seriously I don't see a problem with you KYCing to an exchange obviously you kind of have to make sure that you kind of trust the exchange that you're KYCing on

>> and there aren't that many uh passport exchanges they got FX and all that stuff you never really know uh which exchanges like fraudulent uh or what not. But then you just kind

of have to look at which ones kind of respect compliance the most.

Um the top new exchanges are somewhat trustworthy. Uh in my opinion, I mean

trustworthy. Uh in my opinion, I mean I'm KYC to like five or six different exchanges and exchanges. I don't really care to be honest. Uh, but I do see the

appeal in uh having something that's directly onchain where you can just like move some balance, trade some perks, get your money, [ __ ] off. Uh, sure. Um, why

not? But um, in terms of tech, I I really don't see how a tax per exchange is ever going to be able to uh compete with a centralized exchange. Mostly

because if you're decentralized, then you kind of need nodes. you need to push data across the globe on your all of these different nodes. That's just going to take some time to kind of propagate information. It's going to be slower.

information. It's going to be slower.

Your codes are slower. Everything's

slower. Um

I don't know. I haven't really used uh a lot of the other tax purposes that are available. I've used Apex. I've never

available. I've used Apex. I've never

honestly uh seriously traded on on uh Aster. I kind of give it a try, deposit

Aster. I kind of give it a try, deposit the money, play around a little bit.

Mhm.

uh never used Pacifica, never used Extended, never used any of those other exchanges. Um you know, as long as you

exchanges. Um you know, as long as you kind of find a venue that's right for you, you kind of like agree with the fees that you're kind of paying on and then you know, I don't see um a reason

to kind of move around that much to be honest. Um Hyperlit obviously has uh the

honest. Um Hyperlit obviously has uh the first mover advantage if you ask me. uh

they were one of the uh first burp exchanges that actually got a lot of the mind share. The team is actually uh not

mind share. The team is actually uh not made up of [ __ ] They're not just going to nuke their token. Uh I don't want to glaze them or anything, but you know, it seems that they're like being smart about it. They just want to

develop their software, uh push new stuff out, and you know, uh make sure everything's all right.

Haven't really looked much into the other um the other products. lighter

seems interesting because of the no fee stuff. Um I'm I'm really curious to talk

stuff. Um I'm I'm really curious to talk with some traders that are actually paying for the uh higher grade latency like faster latency and whatnot. I'm

just trying to see uh why aren't they just going with a free one?

If you have like an algo trading on your behalf, then sure uh the two 300 millisecond uh delay is kind of worth to have. Uh, but if you're like manually

have. Uh, but if you're like manually trading, I don't know, man. It's just like maybe my eyes are slow, but like 100, 200, 300 millisecond delay while I press the

button, I just don't [ __ ] notice it.

>> Mhm.

>> I don't know.

>> I mean, I guess we'll have to see how I think it's very interesting what will happen or it's like the most interesting thing in crypto right now, like the lighter TGE, especially like in in

comparison to Hyperlquid as well. Um, I

think the zero fee stuff is kind of interesting, but I I kind of prefer like paying fees just because it's like more uh stable and like understandable for like a stupid person like me that you

have like a flat fee that gets like deducted every time instead of like spread which is like bit different. And

>> isn't it the same though? Is it I mean you're still affected by the spread if you pay a high fee, right? like on

lighter. I don't think the spread goes away if you pay.

>> I mean, I don't want to like talk too bad about it, but like from my own experience, I'm like lighter used to be really good a couple of months ago, but like now it's kind of uh like people

have made posts about that if you have like the free tier and you you execute it's very slow. like it's very like if you scalp like shorter time frames it's

very uh like you definitely notice the delay.

>> Oh, >> and I think even even with the with the pier with the pier it's like a bit better but uh there's still I don't know maybe it's like because they they have

so many increased like the usage has increased so much.

>> Full disclosure we are integrating lighter. I haven't personally worked on

lighter. I haven't personally worked on the lighter integration. I don't know. I

don't think that we talking bad about him. We're just talking about the

him. We're just talking about the general experience of it. Um, at the end of the day, it's like it depends on the user where they kind of uh want to take their like business, whether they want

to take on lighter or whatever. We've

always tried to be like this agnostic like I I'm not going to start [ __ ] any specific exchange, you know? I mean,

obviously the market has uh expanded in so many uh hubs of volume and liquidity like you have all of this pering to some degree.

if we are not going to integrate them all of the volumes a part of the volume just going to migrate somewhere or on somewhere somewhere else I don't know uh so I mean we're just trying to catch up

a little bit um I don't have like a personal opinion about lighter it being good or bad but you know I guess that's I guess we're going to see I'm really curious how much uh how many users we're

going to get once we kind of integration to be honest >> I'm curious as well I I I do have to say like one one good thing that like there UI from like I've tried a lot of uh

exchanges and their UI without the terminal is like one of the one of the better ones. Obviously like I will be

better ones. Obviously like I will be very happy once I can use it inside of the terminal and like because that's for me like proper proper trading and everything else is kind of like

not that nice but like uh their their UI is definitely like pretty decent for just being like an exchange UI. And I

think um like having like we we've also always been like agnostic and I think it's good if we just like let people make their own choices and everyone has like their

their own um preferences as well. Like

if you care more about the incentives and you would rather trade on the decks, but if you really want like the the fast latency and whatever, then you will be on a centralized exchange. And

>> I'm really curious what's going to happen after all of these farming is going to end.

>> Obviously, I don't want to like say something bad, but like most of these exchanges are just getting farmed. Um,

and there is this argument that Hyper Liquid after they kind of uh done the air drop uh was also getting farred in hopes for like a new airdrop season.

>> Um, >> I don't see it that way to be honest.

Um, I think volume is kind of like uh in terms of like percentages and you know whatever. it it's still up regardless of

whatever. it it's still up regardless of whether there's like an error or not. I

think people just like trading there mostly because no KYC and whatnot. But

you know some of these like second tier perexes um I'm really curious what's going to happen to them once once it's all you know uh said and done. Um

do you think do you think there's life after the air drop on most of these exchanges?

Uh if I speak I'm in big trouble.

>> Yeah know I get it. I get

>> questions like this for the for the sake of our industry. I mean as as like a point holder in many of them. No

absolutely like the the volume will increase and the token will go up. I

don't know. I don't think I mean I think it's good that we have like different ones and they're like trying to differentiate themselves a little bit like they have different uh collaterization options or whatever or

different speed and different fee models and all of that stuff and I mean there is space for different centralized exchanges as well but I think it's a bit

like hyperlquid will not be recreated in in any way I don't think so that that's like possible like with the token price.

>> Yeah, I mean >> Yeah, I mean that's like my point as well. Uh like my belief, not my point,

well. Uh like my belief, not my point, but um I don't know. I'm really curious to see how how how the competition on the per exchanges are is going to be holding up

in 2026. That's like

in 2026. That's like or or is there going to be like a perpetual points program for all of these things? Well, it can be it can

these things? Well, it can be it can >> I mean I don't I don't I don't think that that it's impossible for other tokens to do well. I just don't think they will do as well as Hyperlid because it's kind of like this loop thing as we

have seen with like everything in crypto where the first thing is kind of the >> the one that goes up the most and then the others but I mean I guess it depends maybe if there's something that really

like innovates a little bit and and >> I've got a question for you cuz like I haven't really been on the uh token stuff or like platform stuff. Have you

ever traded XPL? What the [ __ ] is XPL about?

>> I keep seeing people like talking about the price and talking about the >> talking about the [ __ ] is XPL about?

>> No, it went completely to zero. That's

why people talk about it. Like I

remember I I traded it in the pre-market because someone on Twitter said like it's going to >> What does it do? Like what's the point of XP? Like why did it launch? Like

of XP? Like why did it launch? Like

>> uh it's it's like a plasma. It's called

Plasma and it's like um a stable coin chain like it's for USDT. I think

there's some partnership with Bitfinex or Tether or something like that. like

it's 4 USDT I think and it's supposed to be like like you can farm yield on it and and send stable coins for like cheap and whatever but like um people kind of

>> bound to be honest like I I remember in 2020 2021 I was like trading some dog [ __ ] tokens on it well I was paying like $100 fees or like blockchain fees that

was [ __ ] insane and now I can look back at them >> but people said it's kind of like a neo bank so like it it will reach a lot of people and stable coins were like the

hype for a little bit and then >> people realize like hey maybe this is kind of like >> and some people like bought it so it's like kind of a meme that it's like just going to zero every single day and

they're like coping about it.

>> I can imagine.

>> So it's just like every other token pretty much like there's nothing that special to it.

>> I see >> to be really honest.

>> All right. Yeah. I don't know. I mean,

I've been I've been like uh head down working on Eternal and I've just seen all of these like tokens spawn up and I've just like >> you're not you're not missing much.

You're not missing out on really on really any like right now nothing is happening for the last couple of months since October 10th >> when like everything went down. I think

the market is kind of that and we need to like wait for next year until >> Yeah, pretty much October 10th kind of rack a lot of people as far as I can see. Even if you kind of take a look the

see. Even if you kind of take a look the hyper track record and see uh the you know uh general volume and it's kind of dreadful to be honest. Uh I hope everyone's all right.

I think it will just take time until there's like new ner like it's always like this like it takes time until there's new things that spawn up and people are interested again and people have a bit more money to like play

around with.

>> Cool.

>> So like maybe next year will will be a good good year regarding that. What do

you like what do you um look at when you think about integrating a new exchange if you can say anything about >> I mean we are trying to >> people are kind of curious

>> yeah we we kind of try to understand like okay there's like enough liquidity on the exchange um people are they're like actually real traders on it we try to get in touch with the teams and uh

chat with them a little bit okay u what's your fee model what's your plans like what's the general direction of uh your exchange or your uh future plans of

growth. Uh we try to make sure that uh

growth. Uh we try to make sure that uh obviously we're not going to be integrating anyone that's like um uh that might be a danger for our users

obviously cuz if we kind of the way I see it like if something is like to some degree a vouch of like you know yeah these guys are all right. Uh I hope it's not necessarily that from the user

perspective, but we try to kind of like make sure that we're not integrating any illquid [ __ ] Uh because then what's the point of integrating some liquid stuff in the in terminal like there nobody

plays there? Uh but generally we kind of

plays there? Uh but generally we kind of look at uh liquid exchanges uh and I guess that's mainly and that the team is not fraudulent

but like obviously there's not much that I can personally like I'm not going to hire like private detective to go and you know stalk the CEO and whatnot to see that it isn't >> I mean FTX was one of the first

integrations or like one of the main ones back in the day and we all know >> yeah I mean >> that went but it's also like >> if if it's that big you kind of still have to like work around or like at

least offer the option I would say and even back then like no one really knew that it's going to be like >> yeah I mean >> that bad to this extent >> you see you you're really making some mistakes in your life I guess but I

don't think it was a mistake generally speaking it was like approved by everyone in market and obviously there was like a lot of volume and we kind of wanted to give a better >> I don't think like I think we we should

have like I didn't really trade or use the terminal back then but like if I was with the terminal now and FTX existed. I

would say we should we should have it like depending on when maybe not like in November 22 I would say like hey we should like integrate it but like the the whole year before that it would just make sense.

>> No but as you can see as you can see we're not integrating just then exchanges uh even though uh probably it would have been beneficial for us to kind of get in early to some projects

and you know farm some stuff as well. Uh

but like we we just wait a bit to kind of see how stuff uh develops like what the general opinion of the exchange is like you know and if we have like a lot of requests on the timeline for example

for lighter most of times when we asked on X like oh which what should we integrate next there were always like a lot of people asking for it.

Um so yeah we kind of also u listen to our users in terms of like feedback and see okay you guys want to trade there okay we might just uh might just want to

do uh an integration of Korean what what what is something that uh people have asked about that you would like never do maybe not like a lot or whatever but

just like someone >> Oh that's a good question once or whatever >> does anything like that exist I don't think that we've kind of denied any requests.

I think about it. Uh

I mean we had requests for traditional markets as well like you know international brokens or whatnot. I'm

not saying no. It's just like it's going to take while for me to kind of figure out what's bing on their API and like how to kind of properly and structure it.

>> But like I don't think that we've ever said no to a feature request.

probably if it's like a [ __ ] VEX, we're going to say no. Uh but uh Jar is speaking, no, not really.

>> Yeah, I was just thinking about it myself. I don't think like I feel like

myself. I don't think like I feel like we're very good at listening to users and listening to like their wants and needs and and what they would like to see implemented. I mean as I mentioned

see implemented. I mean as I mentioned previously uh we have like uh back channelers with like high VIP traders mostly because we want to cater to uh that specific user type uh because they

kind of trust us with their size and we just want to make sure they have like nice experience. Eternal has some like

nice experience. Eternal has some like Easter eggs uh if you're a specific user or whatnot that they ask for like specific feature implementations that only they can see as well. So we do

custom uh features as well. Uh but uh you know it depends on like the scope of the feature like how big it is or like whatnot. Uh the latest one we've done I

whatnot. Uh the latest one we've done I think is for the swer type. The guy was like swarming like insane size and the market makers were keeping up with like uh replenishing the best and we had to

kind of introduce some delays like batches of batches to kind of make sure that you know >> stability kind of increases back again.

Uh, but yeah, >> I feel like you you shouldn't say that publicly or your DMs are going to be full of like custom featur >> I mean, you know, I'm I'm I'm up for doing custom stuff as long as you're not

like uh like you're not mentally challenged. Uh,

mentally challenged. Uh, so yeah, I mean, why not? It's just like new features, I guess.

>> Oh, one more thing. One one thing we can talk about a bit is maybe prediction markets like um >> yeah that's like an interesting area kind of go uh we've had a lot of uh high

traders like high volunt that that like that's like a nice area to go into and that might be next year uh and we do have uh somebody working for us you know

not um he actually wrote an article on how to derive the Greeks from prediction markets he kind of sees them as like options uh So that's that's uh quite interesting stuff. Well, we do have some

interesting stuff. Well, we do have some unreleased features that he's been working on and I do really hope to kind of uh release them sometime in Q next year. Uh it's about like our smart hash

year. Uh it's about like our smart hash feature. Currently we just let you

feature. Currently we just let you choose whatever asset but we've done some work to kind of uh create some correlation matrices, right? So because

if if like uh just an example BTC is uh inversely correlated with ET, right?

That means that if you open up a long on BTC, then you might as well just open up a short as well to kind of hedge your exposure uh with a short on it because they are inversely correlated. And if

you kind of manage to do that and integrate some prediction markets as well, for example, what's the soul token price going to be in like five, six months and whatnot, then we might actually give some like proper

suggestions. Obviously, I don't want to

suggestions. Obviously, I don't want to give anyone suggestions on how they trade or like what to do, but it's just like some uh stats derive um

stuff like [ __ ] like that, you know. Um

and I think I think that's going to be interesting. I've I kind of treat the uh

interesting. I've I kind of treat the uh prediction markets like bets.

Uh I've bet on like the F1 outcome. I've

lost obviously. uh most of my bets have been like talk [ __ ] like you know but um I'm >> I think that if we are to integrate them

and uh what I hope uh we would achieve is like if you take a look at the prediction markets uh venues 80% of

their volume is like sports betting I think that maybe if we get to properly uh display the bridge market stuff we

might be able to push some um um some stuff uh towards those other markets that are not uh so well known, right? Like

right? Like >> crypto related. Um

>> yeah, true >> like that.

>> Well, we were talking about like the seeing it as options. Would you ever integrate some like option functionality into the terminal?

>> What?

>> Like option exchanges? Oh yeah, we were actually thinking about it, but >> options are I think are way too complex for the normal user. Generally speaking,

I've never traded options as well.

Um I actually want I I've been chatting with Azie and Trip and the guys and uh I do want to integrate the option stuff. I

think most of the exchange that we support have kind of added support for options lately.

>> Mhm. I think the biggest venue is still derby for options if I'm not mistaken.

Uh there are some al some interesting uh hypervm projects that do options risk finance as well.

>> Oh yeah, true. Yeah.

>> And yeah uh I don't see why not, but we would kind of have to like we kind of proud ourselves with making the complex simple for the normal user. And in order for us that we're

user. And in order for us that we're going to have to kind of do a lot of research and development in terms of like how to properly display those things and make user understand what the hell they're doing.

>> I think it would be cool but I guess we would need to see like more option usage in general to like really >> have you traed options >> worth ever >> like a little bit but it's like like I I

have read about like the Greeks and about the different strategies that you can do um but I I recently made a post about it. I I find it quite difficult to

about it. I I find it quite difficult to understand. Like I get the options

understand. Like I get the options letter how it works like with the different dates and then you can buy and sell puts and whatever but like the the execution is kind of weird

because you don't really like market by stuff because if you do then you're like instantly 5% on water because then you you kind of have to

like make put limit orders into the book or do like some RFQ thing or whatever and then wait until you get filled and it's just weird. And then onchain is

just like even more complicated for how it works. So I'm like

it works. So I'm like >> I mean I got to be honest >> I kind of I kind of want to do it but like it's it's difficult.

>> I kind of got interested in the options lately most because of respons. I kind

of checked out their website and the way they kind of present them. They present

them uh like extremely simple >> and that's why kind of spawned my interest like yo maybe maybe we should like finally add some options uh opportunities for it. Obviously, it's

going to be like a different engine from the back algos and it's going to be like completely different stuff. But, um,

>> yeah, >> there simply isn't that much demand, I think, on the retail side of options.

>> Probably not, at least not not for now, but maybe that will change in the future.

>> Yeah, I mean, we're open to do all that stuff. Like, imagine bringing options to

stuff. Like, imagine bringing options to your mobile in CO terminal app. I mean,

that's going to be insane.

>> That would be cool. Yeah. I mean,

>> there's so much [ __ ] to do in that mobile app, man. Like, if you take a look at all of our um feature uh offerings in terms of like all of the different components that we have, you're going to have to kind of

jam all of that in like a small mobile UI. Then, that's going to be like a

UI. Then, that's going to be like a challenge.

>> Mhm.

I mean, yeah, I guess we'll have to see how how you go about it. like it

probably doesn't need to be as complicated or like not complicated but complex as like the main website but >> yeah I mean do people like the thing is

I I would say like do people really seriously trade from mobile but I think like a lot of people actually only trade through mobile like ever and never even even touch anything on their desktop but >> yeah that's one thing and you have to

kind of think of it backwards right like you're on your desktop uh you're on your desktop you start trading you start getting into positions and um all of a sudden something happens. You want to

get out of your positions. You want to kind of change something. You're not

next to your desktop. Um

>> yeah, >> generally if you use a mobile app, you can't chase in, you can't chase out, you can't do all that stuff. So um you just want to get out of the positions. Uh and

you simply can't or you have to go to our mobile versions of the website and it's just like a bit uh weird and not as uh user friendly as our desktop app. So

I think >> even us if you think about it like we are not um a stats platform. You don't

derive your trade ideas directly from the terminal unless you're like a short-time trader like um whatnot. But

we are an execution platform, right? So

u once you come and start using the terminal, you should kind of have like an idea of what you want to do. You're

not going to start putting all of these like um how do I say all of these uh observational tools on top of an execution system. Obviously, you can do

execution system. Obviously, you can do it and there are plans to kind of do it to some degree, but we're like we're not I don't think that we will ever be as complex in terms of um

analysis as EXO or like something like that also because our thing is like proper execution, get me in, get me out of the market as best as possible >> uh in a correct and uh performant

manner. And that's what we trying to

manner. And that's what we trying to kind of bring to mobile, right? Like you

already know what you're doing. You're

not going to take the mobile app and just like draw lines and what not to kind of understand like get a feel of the market.

>> Yeah. Yeah. True.

>> That's how I see it. Probably people are using it in a different way. But like

generally when I trade or like when I do stuff occasionally I don't go to them and just like oh yeah let me check the five minute chart see I mean yeah five minute chart makes s like you know beat meta analysis.

>> Yeah. No, I think you definitely like have to have to derive your ideas from different kinds of tool. Like there are so many tools out there at the moment.

And I think even if you would combine like the terminal with something else like that, it would be a bit like there's already so much information like I have like three screens where I

like look at all of the different things. Only one of them is a terminal

things. Only one of them is a terminal and then it's like >> Yeah. I mean, what if we don't support

>> Yeah. I mean, what if we don't support like a specific exchange that has like a does something like you're just going to be blind? you simply have to kind of use

be blind? you simply have to kind of use different tools in my opinion. I mean I I wish I could put all of uh crypto in our terminal,

>> but like it's like it's not possible.

>> No, not really. Maybe maybe in like the future or something like that.

>> It's going to be possible, but >> but I think we're doing a good a good job with what we're doing already and with everything that is like coming. So

>> yeah, I mean everybody wants everything yesterday. I mean, you know, we just

yesterday. I mean, you know, we just human like there's like a process to it and there's like a logical progression to it. That's what we've kind of working

to it. That's what we've kind of working towards. Um, for example, the back new

towards. Um, for example, the back new back end engine that's going to allow you to do some new stuff uh that you couldn't previously for example like the triggers and whatnot. And you you are going to be able to kind of pair your

trading uh with like some derived stats from the market. Uh so you don't have to be constantly on the terminal to kind of execute your amazing strategies and whatnot. like it's not

going to happen tomorrow.

>> Yeah.

No, but we got like a lot of good new stuff coming. We've had a good year. I

stuff coming. We've had a good year. I

think I don't really have any anything else uh interesting to talk about. I

think this is a good point.

>> Yeah. I know. I mean, I I kind of wish that people find this podcast like amusing, insightful, and whatnot. Um

yeah, I guess.

>> Yeah. Okay, we went over the history a bit. We talked a bit about what we're

bit. We talked a bit about what we're doing right now, what is coming in the future.

>> Um, yeah, >> this was a bit more of a casual episode, casual Christmas episode. I hope people are still going to like it. Anyway, do

you have any like finishing finishing advice, finishing wisdom or any other finishing words for the end that you want to let people know?

>> Not really to be honest. I I don't know, man. I just hope they don't make uh I

man. I just hope they don't make uh I don't know I don't know be honest I

send me a DM if you want to chat I guess >> yeah Dennis is always up for new feature requests I can maybe say uh I'm I'm glad for everything we got to do this year

I'm I'm very excited for next year I'm hope everyone also enjoyed the podcast this year and is excited for for your new features and new guests and everything we're going to bring and we

wish you a happy holiday time and >> a nice start into the >> small if you get to this part of the podcast just shoot me a DM I might give you some merch because I don't think

people should listen to the end >> that's actually good that's good yeah >> okay >> goodbye