Introduction to VWAS Webinar

thank you for joining us susie it's so wonderful to have you with us and um we've had the the great honor of having you at so many of our training sessions for our new trainees

and although you can't see the the the people behind these names what i can say to you susie is these are an amazing group of new trainees

they um they're just fantastic and and we've recruited them for virtual services so these are volunteers that will be

able to participate in the v was service as well as phone service and so i think it felt really really important that they got to

meet you and to hear about the really important work of um of your team although i do understand you're currently out of your team playing somewhere else at the moment aren't you

yeah for six months so um but i mean really what i am doing is um so i'm managing what is the opp and v was a sister service

so it's the child witness service so where i am now does very similar work um but the practitioners here provide assistance and support to

child victims and witnesses of crime but they also work very holistically so they work with um adult family members of

um child victims and witnesses so no doubt um you know through referrals you may very well have contact with um some of the people that we provide support to

over here at the child witness service as well okay wonderful and susie just i'm just going to let everyone know that there's a q a

um panel which is different running a webinar to what you'd have in a regular zoom and if anyone's got any questions feel free to pop those in sarah and i will keep an eye on the questions

and then susie will be able to feed those to you as you um take us on a bit of a journey through who the opp is i've got some handouts that i've um will give to everyone so

you know there's things that they can read afterwards and i think the way they're able to explain who the opp is what they do and particularly around how we support witnesses and victims that's really the

focus of our time together today fantastic um okay so what i will do sarah jane is i'm used to working with two screens but i've just got

um my work laptop my opp laptop that i've bought in with me today so in front of me i'm going to bring up um just the the the presentation that i

usually deliver so i'm not going to be able to see everyone so if anyone does have a hand up or have a question um perhaps if yourself or sarah could just jump in and say let me we'll manage that

through the q a screen you're reading that because there'll be written questions okay okay all right thanks susie fabulous

okay so um good afternoon everyone and i apologize for being late um so my name is susie quinn and i am the manager of the victim and witness assistance service of

at the office of public prosecutions but currently just seconded over to the child witness service until the end of the year um so i manage a team of social workers at the

opp that provide support and assistance to uh victims of crime so victims of um serious enjoyable matters that

are being prosecuted at the office so what i propose to do is i'll give you um just a bit of an organizational overview talk a little bit about the opp the

functions of the opp and then how we um i guess uh come into play and then also talk a little bit about um the very important work that uh

yourselves will be doing um as virtual uh support people um with the core network service so i'll just jump straight into it so

the key features of the office of public prosecutions the function is to bring people charged with a

serious indictable crime to court so as some of you may have heard um different crimes or crimes divided into two different types so there's summary

criminal matters and there are enjoyable criminal matters uh for those of you that may not understand um the difference between the two will be aware of the difference between the two summary matters are typically so your

less serious offenses that typically attract a lesser penalty and they're heard in the magistrates court so they're heard before just a magistrate and a police

prosecutor will prosecute and accused people will either turn up to court either self-represented or represented by a

a lawyer now indictable matters are um more serious criminal offences and they are tried in the higher courts so

in the county court and the supreme court and if um an accused person is to plead not guilty to that offence that will be heard

in a trial before a judge and a jury so a jury of 12 ordinary members of the community so um and that's required for all

indictable matters so the opp is not responsible for investigating crimes that's a job of victoria police and um

we are an independent statutory authority so that means that we're independent of government and any other bodies and we stand um independently

so we are a legal practice made up of trial divisions so and they're just um i guess smaller teams within the organisation of lawyers and

uh the v was team the victim and witness assistance service uh they now form part of that trial division as well so historically um we weren't part of those trial

divisions but we've under recently undergone a restructure and now the b was teams are attached to each trial division and then they provide support and

assistance to the lawyers in those trial divisions the victim and witness assistance service was established in 1995 so we have been operational for quite some time now

and we're an integral part of the legal practice working group in our primary role and focus is on supporting victims of crime and that includes families of deceased

and witnesses throughout the prosecution process our service delivery model is we are a statewide service so we cover all areas of the state we

are primarily however based in melbourne there is a geelong um of the opp so there is a team of lawyers and two social workers that

work over at the geelong office um and then they provide support and assistance and prosecute matters in the grampians and barwin southwest region

and then the opp office in melbourne prosecutes matters in metro melbourne and all other areas of the state so as i explained just before we are a

specialist service for adult indictable prosecution victims witnesses and families of deceased and then the child witness service which

is where i am at the moment they provide services to all child victims and witnesses and

family members within the indictable stream we assist uh throughout the prosecution process from the start

to finish so from the time the file comes to our office um to the time so that might be pre-committal pre-and then see through a

trial uh plea and sentence hearing and then sometimes an accused person is able to lodge an appeal against their sentence or against their conviction

the life of a prosecution matter once the file comes to the opp usually will last between say six months to two years however it can

last a lot longer if it does end up uh in the appeal stream so i've had um i know one matter in particular that underwent two court of appeals and then

a high court appeal in canberra and i had that matter for eight years and supported those victims throughout the entire time

so uh all of the vivos workers are social workers with a sound knowledge of the criminal justice system and we are an integrated model so that means we work within a

multi-disciplinary team and framework and that includes the solicitor who has carriage of the file the prosecutor who is the barrister who presents the matter

or the case in court the police informant and that's just the police officer or detective who is in charge of that particular investigation

criminal investigation and the social worker so we all work together as a team and um as i explained before social workers are attached to each

trial division and those uh teams are made up of about five social workers now and then they also have a social work team leader

and what's really important is that we are a non-evidentiary service so what that means is that we just we don't get involved in the evidence we

don't discuss the evidence with victims and witnesses um because it is really important that we are not seen to be coaching or

influencing someone's evidence in court in any way and i'll talk about that a fair bit throughout this presentation because that is something that's really important for you to be aware in your role as volunteers and supporting victims and witnesses

throughout the court process as well the aims of the v1 service are to ensure that victims

of serious criminal offences in victoria receive the best possible care support and information throughout the prosecution process and as an integral part of the

prosecution team to ensure that the needs and concerns of victims and witnesses are identified and taken into account

throughout the prosecution process uh another one of our aims is also to enhance the prosecution process by supporting victims and witnesses to enable them to give their evidence to

their best ability and that is really about making sure part of our role as the poor people is making sure that of course our victims and witnesses are supported and that we provide that

emotional support but also that we provide them with information and they're informed when someone is informed of the process and has an idea of what to expect and

how things are going to run um they're able to then not i guess they they let go of you know having to second-guess themselves and they can just focus

on the job at hand and that is just to give their evidence to the best of their ability and we also work collaboratively with other agencies so to improve the

criminal justice process so that we can minimise the trauma and stress experienced by victims and witnesses to assist them in their healing and recovery

so um you know the aim of our service is to provide that seamless support i suppose and um those wrap around services so we will also

refer to other external agencies and have close relationships with other agencies like yourselves like a court network um the victims assistance

programs in the area child witness service uh just to try and minimize that trauma and stress that is experienced by victims and witnesses

what we do so the core business of the v was t is to um our core function is really to uh

arrange and uh facilitate legal conferences and when i i say a legal conference that's really just a fancy name for a meeting so what we will do is we will arrange

for that victim and witness to um to meet with the prosecution team so to meet with both lawyers who are involved and the police informant

and each step of the way so we made during the life of the prosecution we'll have several meetings with those victims and families of deceased and witnesses

and just to explain before each process so once the file comes to our office it might be a phone conference where we will call that victim

and witness and just explain um in the very early days where things are at and what they can expect in terms of contact with us throughout the life of the prosecution and then at each

step of the way whether it be a committal hearing a trial a plea will arrange further meetings with um those victims to explain what they can

expect will happen in each of those processes at court we demystify the court process and we translate legal terminology and that is

really important um you know the court system and these processes for us as practitioners is really our bread and butter so we will throw away

um or throw around fancy terms and legal terminology um and lawyers will do that often as well but quite often victims and witnesses have not

had any contact with the court process so all the court systems so they're not aware of what all of that means so it's really about demystifying what it is and also quite

often someone's um experience or the images in their mind on what they think will happen in court will be what they may have seen on tv

and most of those crime shows are also american tv shows so that in itself is a very different system to ours and also highly dramatised

so often not um you know what in reality someone will experience when coming to court we provide information and updates to victims and witnesses because

a file can be floating around at the opp um for some time it is really important that whenever there is anything to update um you know our victims and

witnesses that we do pick up the phone or send an email and um provide those updates and information to people as things progress through the court system so that might be regarding a hearing

regarding um you know any possible you know big decisions about downgrading charges um [Music] you know that that lawyers may be

discussing at particular phases throughout the life the the prosecution we provide court and remote witness tours and now

more recently with covert given we are also operating uh on the digital platform it might even be uh having a um a bit of a webex tour a

zoom tool tour where we were organized to dial in um to that particular digital platform that the court has decided to use

just so that that victim and witness can familiarize themselves with that system and then know what to expect when they do appear for that court hearing

whether it be on zoom or webex we provide court support to those victims and witnesses that we can my team have very high caseloads so unfortunately we can't

be present to provide that support to everybody which is why we rely so heavily and are so grateful for the assistance from yourselves and other agencies that also help us

with providing support to our victims and witnesses we liaise with solicitors and prosecutors and police informants um yeah you know and some of that stuff

might be about you know what arrangements we can put in place to best support that particular victim and witness according to their own

individual needs we will advocate on behalf of victims and witnesses we operate several on-site remote witness facilities we used to just have

two but now since covered we've redesigned the entire ground floor and now we have eight uh remote witness facilities at our melbourne office on the ground floor

we provide uh crisis counselling and debriefing um we do a lot of that uh that will often take place either at the end

of someone giving their their evidence when you know victims are coming or having to appear in court and have to talk about um and give a lot of detail about what happened to them

you know quite often at the end of that they um highly triggered very very distressed so it will take some time to debrief those people um and also will

provide crisis counselling and debriefing at the end of say for example unfavorable verdict so if a matter's gone to trial and if um an accused person has been

acquitted of that crime or if a sentence has been handed down that perhaps you know victims and families have of deceased are very unhappy with will

provide that support and uh crisis support afterwards we will arrange interpreters um facilitate referrals i touched on that

briefly to other services according to people's needs so that may be getting them in touch with uh councils that might specialize in the particular area of trauma that they have

experienced and we also provide training and consultations to external agencies why we do what we do

we support victims throughout the court process because their levels of emotion are often high um you know sometimes we are dealing with

victims and witnesses where that incident has occurred within a fairly um you know quick time frame i suppose from the time that the crime occurs to

the time that it comes to court but sometimes it's been a really really long time since the crime occurred and that may be for a number of reasons it may have been a very long and

protracted criminal investigation and has taken some time to arrive at the opp and get through the court system or it might have been an historical

um criminal matter so quite often for a number of different reasons we will have victims of crime particularly in relation to sex offences where victims come forward

many many years later so then they're having to come to court give evidence and they're highly highly triggered um and re-traumatized so

emotions are often running very high the court process is often very stressful and very traumatizing to people

the court process can be very long and um i often say the wheels of justice turn very slowly court hearings can often be delayed and

i wrote this prosecution pre-covert so you can imagine now since um covert has occurred and with all the lockdowns that happened last year

there's even further delays so there's a an enormous backlog in the courts that will take many years to get back to i guess pre-covered

situations most victims and witnesses have never been involved in the criminal justice system before many people fear not being believed um having to come to court

and giving evidence and again it is you know what they see on tv and one thing they see on tv is that it is an adversarial system and that is the same

um in the the legal system here so where you have a defense barrister challenging a victim about what they've um what has happened to them so victims do really fear and feel very

triggered by you know being told in court as part of that process i suggest to you you're not telling the truth um many people are reluctant for a number of different reasons to

participate in the court process and it's not always a just system so um it is a system that is weighted very heavily in favor of an accused

person so often i find myself saying to victims of crime that there can be a big just a difference between justice and fairness and what victims feel is fair

i just want to jump in there susie and just just really acknowledge the importance of that message it's huge isn't it yeah you know and i i

think almost pausing on that one is um how do you support people when they have a sense of what they should should have

but that the system is so structured isn't it that it's bound by incredible structures and precedent and it absolutely is and um

that that is exactly right sarah jane precedence too so what i often also explain to victims of crime is um that quite often

it's very backward they look backwards and see what's been done before rather than um going forwards unless of course you you know a matter ends up at um the court of

appeal and then there's some case law then that may determine of future cases and decisions but um it is and it is the under the core underpinning

principles of the criminal justice system here is that um that presumption of innocence so an accused person and that's why we also have to be very careful with

the language you know for a victim um as far as they're concerned that person coming to court um and having to face court is a perpetrator

but within the legal justice system we need to refer to them as an accused person because there's the presumption that they are innocent until such time that they are proven guilty

so um we are very mindful but then i you know a big part of our role is educating victims about that and also making sure that

victims hold on to their truth um and really regardless of what the outcome might be at the end

um that doesn't necessarily change their truth and that and what happened for them and um often i ideally i would really love

some of the language within the legal system to change from for example when someone is acquitted of a crime um rather than being found not guilty just for it to really

be not proven because essentially that is what it means and there was a very famous quite famous within legal circles from um a judge from many many

years back that i had stuck at my desk uh on my wall in my office for many years where a judge did make those comments after an acquisition

and basically said um a person found him being found not guilty does not mean that they're innocent and it doesn't mean that it never happened it just means that the

crown being the opp failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt beyond that really high standard of proof that the crime occurred so you know if

there's any doubt any doubt a jury is told that they must to quit that person so in a civil stream it's on the balance of probabilities is

it more often that this happens than not in the criminal stream it's beyond a reasonable doubt the highest standard you can have so even if a jury of 12 people think you know what

this person probably did it it's highly likely they did it that is still not enough to satisfy that burden and we've had juries come back into the courtroom before and deliver a

not guilty verdict but with tears in their eyes or tears streaming down this their cheeks because they still felt very uncomfortable with it but in order to fulfill their

obligations as a jury if there's any doubt that they need to equip so does that make that and that's a really big that was great

too and we we've got some resources that go with that but it's so good to call that out because it i think it is so misunderstood you know that whole notion of acquittal

and if we think of our volunteers supporting um you know victims and witnesses through this whole experience and if they happen to be somewhere you know we're not taking away their story

we're not taking it it's how the process works and i think you've raised some huge and really important points there around that that person's story is their story it's

their their experience we have a legal system that works like this sometimes they don't align um and and and that's why our service

needs to be so very clear on what our role is because your enduring relationship with this service user this court user there's

been lots of preparation along the way we just have this tiny little sliver this tiny little window of support um so i think it's really it's really important that we understand

collectively um how much work the opp does in in the supporting of witnesses and victims

but also how that burden of proof is different and when you're talking about indictable offences these are the big serious things aren't they when you're talking about

victims and and um witnesses it's huge it's huge and it is a system really that um sometimes lawyers get a bit caught up in having to

i mean look they've been trained to um you know this is their role and that they take their roles very seriously and they're to remain impartial and

um you know again those underpinning principles i've often heard lawyers in saying in conferences to victims well the way the law works is we would rather

uh nine guilty men go free than one innocent man go down for something he didn't do which is why it's so heavily weighted in favor of been accused and that may all be

good and well but at the end of the day you can't sell this system to someone who is a victim of crime if they end up um you know on the other side of it and

that's okay it's okay to say i can't sell it to you and it's not my it's not my job it's not your job to sell it to them it's just you

you support them as best as you can within those parameters um and it is also okay to say and i say to lawyers all the time too i mean the law is a law and we have to

work within those parameters in those legislative frameworks but it's okay to say i believe you and i think it is really important for victims to hear um i believe you because it can

be very easy in that system for them to just feel not believed and it is not about the truth the system is about

proof that's another one of my little catch phrases that i use too it's not necessarily about truth it's about proof and that's why i will say to a victim

hang on to your truth okay this is about whether or not we can prove it but it doesn't change the truth thank you susie that was great so

um so that's pretty much in a nutshell what the opp does and why we do what we do does anyone have any questions

um specifically around that i've just i've turned the sound on for everyone there's no questions in that i think you've um you've you've covered everything everything i think of oh you know

um you you've said everything that i've thought of um so i think it's okay um yeah they're those key things and it's about the quality of evidence and for some

some some of these experiences when you talk about sex crime for example that was one of the um you know they're incredibly difficult aren't they they're incredibly difficult in terms of evidence and the role of the

lawyer um is to represent and i and i learned this from you you know the role of the lawyer and what what it is so if you're talking about

um someone who is questioned by a lawyer in you know the the lawyers not there just to look after them is it if it's not their lawyer

if they're there for the accused no that is exactly right yes so that defense lawyer's job is to act on instructions from the

accused person so um and i i can talk about that a little bit more as i talk about um the nature of cross-examination but yeah

that is a really important um and it's really important for victims to understand that too because again when you're talking about victims feeling as though they're not believed

um that might be because there's that defense barrister in court saying i don't believe you you're lying aren't you and that doesn't necessarily mean that that defense barrister believes that but

they're acting on instructions and that's their job to give their client the best possible defense so um you know it i think it can really help for a victim to

it is really important that victims understand that that just because someone is saying i don't believe you that doesn't even mean that they believe that um but they're really just doing their

job thank you okay so um now i know you're all

um supporting virtually that there will be a lot of parallels between um how you will support victims and witnesses within the virtual platform as opposed to supporting victims and witnesses in

court i'll just talk a little bit about referrals and how referrals come through and um you know this is quite new to us

as well making these referrals for virtual court support so you know it's had it's um a few little teething problems along the way but i guess

practicalities versus realities um even in the virtual world there have been all of these things put into place to try and

um avoid delays but those delays are still happening so referrals may come um with a very tight time frame um

and you know we may be sending through a lot of last-minute referrals and that's not going to mean that the social worker's disorganized but what it it does mean is um you know quite often

we're the last to know when that person is going to be expected to give evidence he caught if it's to provide that support to a family of deceased or another victim who's just wanting to

dial in and be a witness to you know a plea hearing or what's going on that will be different and we are able to you know generate those referrals within a more more of a timely manner but if it's

around victims and witnesses giving evidence in court when that person gives evidence is going to depend on um how long any

other witnesses before them have taken to give evidence so yeah it may be very much um a last minute uh arrangement i suppose

and that of course creates that domino effect um which will set everything else and everyone else back so the key um

roles that you will have in supporting people virtually will be either supporting victims and witnesses or victims as they bear witness to

what's happening in court so that might be um for example families of deceased that are dialing in to observe a plea hearing or a sentence

hearing um or it might be you know a victim of sexual assault who's who's darling to observe a plea hearing or a sentence hearing or that victim might also be reading out

their victim impact statement um so there's that kind of support where um you know pretty much everyone's just bearing witness during the breaks you would

you know you could have some contact with those victims to check in and see how they're going and provide that debriefing afterwards or it might be that you

are supporting that victim as they give evidence for a hearing so it might be a commercial hearing or it might be a trial where they're appearing virtually

and um giving their evidence via that platform so the guidelines so what i'll do is i'll talk a little bit about in practice how we support people as

they're giving their evidence so in sexual assault and family violence matters it's embedded within the legislation that that victim is entitled to a support person as they give

their evidence so the magistrate or judge will need to approve who that support person is um it is really important that that witness feels comfortable with telling their

story in front of the support person um so i know at times you know prior to hearing sometimes i've had victims say look um i don't want anyone professional

supporting me when i give my evidence i really want my mum or i really want my boyfriend um to sit in with me or appear with me that's really important for me

um what i will often just i guess raise with that person is just um explain they're going to have to give a lot of detail

about what happened to them and they also need to be mindful that if their mum is there and listening or if their boyfriend is there and listening

are they going to feel okay and safe to give that level of detail are they going to become a bit inhibited because i don't really want to upset you know my loved one um if they you

know hear this content you know are they um going to be upset if they see me being upset um and then that might make someone hold back

and it is really important that people you know are free to to give and it's important that you know those um

i guess the conditions uh are such that they can give their evidence to the best of their abilities so quite often when i raise that with people i've i'll have victims say oh gee i didn't really think of that

um okay what i'll do is you know i'll have my mum or my boyfriend outside the room and during breaks i can go and get a hug from them or get support from them but yeah i think it's important that i

have someone who's a bit more impartial sitting in the room or appearing on zoom with me while i give my evidence so when a victim is giving their

evidence [Music] there's no there's to be no communication or no contact between that support person

and the victim so even if you're appearing virtually uh you can't be texting or trying to call or you can't be getting onto or unmuting yourself and

saying um your honor like you just say for example if you see the the witness becoming very distressed you can't interrupt

and say your honor i really think jane needs a break now um that is up to that person and they are conference beforehand and in your you know initial check-in

prior to the hearing coming on you can also remind that person you know just remember anytime you need a break just to ask the judge or the magistrate if you can have a break but it really is going to be up to you

i'm not allowed to interrupt at any stage so once the cameras are off or when there is a break you can certainly get in touch with that

person and just say how are you going you know give that encouragement you're doing really well um each question you answer is a you know

step closer to this matter being finished and give that kind of non-evidentiary support so remember i said earlier it's really important

that you are just like us a non-evidentiary service so you can't during the break say um gee that was really great when you gave that answer and then

if the defense bears to ask you about that again but you know i think you should maybe be a bit stronger or this is what you should say um that's a big no no no equally sometimes

um victims will say uh how am i going um i'm a bit anxious what happens if the barrister asked me about this how should i answer that

um i pretty much just have one blanket rule or one blanket sentence for how i respond to any of those questions and that is just simply you must answer

that truthfully your job is to tell the truth and if someone asks how am i doing i might ask them back are you telling the truth are you being truthful and they might say well

oh yeah i am it's like well then you're doing great you're doing fantastic because that is your number one job is to tell the truth and if you don't know or you can't

remember that's the truthful answer if you're not sure that's the truthful answer but your job as a witness is to just tell the truth and if you're telling the

true truth you're doing fabulous so um i've touched on so some of the other things you might want

to cover in those in that early conversation so prior to like um i said and sarah jane has said we do conference our victims and witnesses quite comprehensively beforehand

but on the day people get very very nervous and quite often forget a lot of the stuff um that we've said so i guess it's really important for you to have some of these little um

you know some of this information in your toolkit so that you know what kind of things to remind a victim and witness of so it might just be explaining your role

as a support person and reminding them again you know you and i can't talk um while courts in session i can't interrupt we can't text each other

or anything like that but during the breaks you know i'll give you a call i'll check in and you know we can have some conversation then explaining the process to people

explaining the roles of who's who um so who might be appearing on the screen so you know letting them know who the judge's staff are so you know it

might be look you'll see the judge on the screen um then it will be the tip staff who'll come and swear you in uh you know we've got the solicitor

who'll be appearing often the solicitor will have their camera off and it might just be the barrister who has their camera on um checking in with him and just making sure that the victim

is set up and has everything that they need for that hearing so it might be just to remind them okay what have you got that's within easy reach

before you appear today so are you in a nice quiet room where there's no interruptions have you got a box of tissues or a packet of tissues with you have you got a bible there if you want a

bible for swearing on the bible do you have some water um really the way things operate within the virtual courtroom is very

very similar to how things operate in the physical courtroom so for example if i was supporting a victim in court and i was appearing

on camera i wouldn't be allowed to take a sip from my coffee cup here because in a real courtroom people aren't allowed to eat or drink they're only allowed to drink out of

a clear glass of water so people can have water in the courtroom but we've had some solicitors during covert last year receive a very stern dressing down from the

judges because they had their takeaway latte with them and were taking sips from it whilst court was in session so some of those things are good to

um remind people no chewing gum while they're appearing um and just making sure that they are set up and that there's not going to be any interruption so they're in a nice

quiet safe place whilst they give their evidence um just reminding them of what their role is you know your role is just to tell

the truth um and just appreciate how they might be feeling you know understanding that they will be very nervous asking them if they have any last-minute questions or

anything um that they might have forgotten about what they can expect uh you know is going to happen throughout the course of the process on that um for that day for people that are

giving evidence so the principles for giving evidence and i think sarah jane's got something for you about that um just as a little reminder but i

i keep saying it but i i keep saying this to victims and witnesses as well its number one rule is to tell the truth beneath that number one rule is just to

listen very carefully to the question and make sure that you understand that question before you answer it so it's that it's not that witnesses job

to understand the question it's the person asking that question so whether that be the judge the defense barrister or the prosecutor they make need to make sure and it's

their responsibility to ensure that they have asked that question in a manner that is easily understood and if that witness doesn't understand just

just remind them to say so and not to answer that question until they are really clear on what it is that they are answering it's the witnesses answer that is the

evidence and not the question so say for example when i spoke about earlier um you know footage we we call it footage um uh

you know a defense barrister might say i put you or i suggest to you that you're lying or that didn't happen did it that's not the evidence it's how the witness

answers that that is the evidence so if a defense barrister says you're lying aren't you and the witness says no i'm not lying i'm telling the truth

that's the evidence and that is really important for um victims to understand as well because sometimes during the course of their cross-examination they can get very caught up in oh she

keeps saying that i'm lying she keeps saying this she keeps doing that you know that's not fair what's the jury going to think and you can just remind them well the

jury are going to be focusing on what you how you respond to that and after you finish giving your evidence the judge is going to be reminding the jury

that their job is to listen to the evidence and the evidence is the answers that a witness gives and not the questions that are being asked so um and you know again if they're not

sure or if they can't remember just to tell um the judge or the the lawyers that they don't know or they can't remember

and definitely do not try to guess or do not make something up because you will just end up getting caught out really um and you'll just end up in a slippery slope

of making a big mess of things so it is really important just to tell the truth and if you're not sure it's okay and you know even just reminding and reassuring um

witnesses too that quite often they are talking about things that happened a really long time ago and it's understandable that they're not going to remember and in fact it probably makes their evidence

a lot more believable when they're able to say how on earth would i know what color pajama pants i was wearing

when something happened 23 years ago you know there are things that will be forever etched in someone's memory and then there will be other peripheral things that someone

is not going to remember so you know i can remember so many things about my wedding day and so much detail about all these things that i put so much

um focus on or attention on but if you asked me what color the walls were inside the venue where i had my reception i've got no idea i'm not going to be

able to tell you so you know that's how memories work and that's absolutely okay and um no one expects someone to believe everything and

sometimes defense barristers will make a big song and dance you know what do you mean you don't remember what color your pajama pants were oh and they'll scoff and they'll make a big song and dance about it

that's all theatries at the end of the day you know you can be guaranteed there'll be people in that jury thinking oh gosh yeah this did happen 23 years

ago of course she can't remember um so it's just about providing you know during the breaks that reassurance so without talking about their evidence but just saying it's it's absolutely okay and

it's normal not to be able to remember absolutely everything okay and i spoke about footage so it's okay not to agree with someone when they

put something to you for the witness um you know again that can be really confusing for witnesses i guess there are two different types of questions

so one is where they ask you a question and expect an answer and then the other one is where they will suggest something or put a proposition to you and you can either agree with that or

disagree so i suggest to you you're lying yes i am no i'm not i suggest to you it's raining outside

it either is or it isn't you can either agree with that or not and what you say is the evidence and not what um that defense barrister is proposing to you

so you definitely don't sometimes people can think oh my goodness this is um a lawyer there's that power differential you know if he's saying that it's true it must be true so i'm just going to

agree so you know during breaks it might just be about gently reminding someone if someone if they make a suggestion to you you don't have to agree it's okay to

say no that's not the way it happened no that's not true anytime someone needs to take a break for any reason just to ask the judge or magistrate you

don't have to say why you need a break um you just have to say ask can i have a break please and of course it's okay to be upset you know people are often talking about very very

distressing things um that have happened to them and it is completely understandable and all of those professionals in that room

get it and understand that this is going to be really hard for that person and it's okay to be upset

so in practice when providing that um non-evidentiary emotional and practical support so again just you know encourage them to ask for breaks when they need

encourage them to keep going each question just brings you that question closer to it all being over um just remember don't assist with or

comment or discuss the evidence during breaks um [Music] just think um you know you don't have to be talking about what happened all the

time too and it might be really helpful for someone just to talk about a lighter topic of conversation um during the longer breaks

and just providing that non-judgmental support validating that it is you know understandably very very difficult for that person court etiquette so i touched on that

before um but again the same as you know what happens in the courtroom to what happens when you're appearing

virtually so um no hats or sunglasses or glasses on your head so people even walking into court with a pair of reading glasses on their head will

swiftly be told by the tip staff to remove those glasses um no hats or head coverings unless of course it's for religious

purposes no food or drinks unless it's water and just when we address the judge it's your honor and just giving these bits and pieces

and chunks of information to victims and witnesses is um you know if people have that knowledge they feel more powerful

and more in control within that process it engenders confidence so that they don't need to worry about those things and fill in the gaps in their minds and have all of those other things going on

all they need to do is focus on giving um the evidence to their best ability and [Music]

for family of deceased and victims uh just observing processes again look that is a little bit different in that you can if you are on mute

um of course uh you know it is important during those processes to keep yourselves on mute but you can check in and have some um conversations with victims if they need

you whilst court is in process it is just important so it isn't distracting to everyone else that people take themselves off camera keep themselves on mute but if they do

have a little question for you or need something um whilst court is in session that is um okay for you to have that contact um and

again it might just be about reassuring them um you know they might have a question why is this happening and it might even be about footage or something and you know you

can just reassure them you know this person's being cross-examined but that's not the evidence it's you know how the the witness answers it so don't worry too much about

this person being called a liar they're doing fantastic um you know things like that um and then providing that supports

when some if a victim during a plea hearing chooses to read out their victim impact statement then providing that support and debriefing afterwards

so does anyone have any other questions about what i've just discussed everyone's been turned um has got access to

turn their mute on and off um so i'll just see if anyone do a call out i mean it's everyone everyone is welcome to come forward with the question now

if you have any um but i i think you cover you cover so much in there there's sort of a lot to to think about no i know i was just thinking how useful

the resources that we made just before christmas um will be you know the the guidelines around probably yeah absolutely absolutely and i think just in my closing comments an important

thing to say is just do not underestimate um your role as support people even within that virtual platform it's probably even more

important people are just appearing on their own at home and have you know no one around them and you are really their lifeline

um and you know we've had just amazing feedback from victims and witnesses about the support that they've received from court network

and from other practitioners uh you know whilst they've had to appear remotely that's wonderful to hear susie thank you thank you for covering such a huge huge

topic in um such a lovely condensed period of time so it was um it was really it was really good and there's lots of i think it's great to have this recording

because we can pull out some of those um key concepts that we can weave into the training and i think that footage um is something we probably haven't

talked enough about um but i'll certainly put that in next week's session because it's a good reminder isn't it around

um what the court experience is like um for court users absolutely yeah yeah so no question did you get it thanks yeah we've just got a question that what

would you do if a victim had a panic attack or something of that nature during a hearing break and has to go back um what would you like us to do susie yeah look i would get in touch with the

solicitor quick smart to let them know what is going on so as part of the referral what we will be providing you is um with the contact details for the

solicitor who's instructing for that um criminal matter on the day so if there is anything at all that you are concerned about in relation to that victim let the

solicitor know that this is happening for them and then they will be able to inform the prosecutor who will in turn inform the judge um also what i didn't touch on um which is really important and it's in

the document but afterwards if you have any concerns at all about that victim and feel that you need to provide um

some kind of handover uh by all means provide that handover to the social worker who's got carriage of that matter if you feel as though you need to speak with someone

urgently because you are really concerned about the well-being of that person call the v was um

a main administration line and melissa will who's our admin will be able to get you in touch with someone who can respond straight away perfect and we've got another question

around if technology fails and i think we're all um familiar with that there's also numbers in our um referral documentation isn't there around who to

contact if the technology fails on the day and again usually yeah and again usually the solicitor is your main point of call

um but for anything in relation to well-being and not just afterwards if during um whilst court is in session if you do

have concerns about that victim um yes let the solicitor know but if you need to speak to uh this social worker again call the admin line and we're also here for you as well if

you um you know feel like you need to have a chat with us and have a bit of a debrief um because that self-care is so important for yourselves as well and you are going to be sitting there

bearing witness to quite often what is some very very distressing content um and we certainly don't want you to carry that on your own and i know you have your own processes and mechanisms

within court network that deal with that but um don't forget us we're here for you as well and um so please do reach out thank you susie

it was um yet again a very fabulous session and we're so grateful for your time it's a last call for questions because i know how busy susie is um and

we don't in terms of this we've got a question here with the same sort of process be used if we're supporting a perpetrator but your service is not about that your

services around victims and witnesses yes so we are um yes yeah we are there for um victims so is this

about supporting a perpetrator and being concerned about the well-being of the perpetrator is that what the question relates to i'm not sure

if um shritsy where are you i'll see if she'll if she'll talk hi are you kidding me yes i can thank you hello um yeah i was just um just if it yeah if it's

regarding just the victims and the witnesses that's a different story i just wanted to know if we were supporting a perpetrator would the same sort of process be used

in supporting them that we went through today today is re only about the the supporting victims and witnesses and the very specific work that we do with the

office of the public prosecution um so we we will touch on supporting all court users through our different service models and this is just one of our services

which is a unique service because um it's a very limited and contained service that we do so we have a model around providing support information and referral

but in this particular support it really is about in that moment support and you know a small amount of information but what these court users have is um

considerable input from social workers and a team of people who prepare them for giving evidence and being present in court for these

indictable matters so it's a unique service so hopefully that takes some of the burden off yourselves as well um because after that court hearing you

can just hand them back to us yeah and we've got some resources that we'll share with everyone that we developed with susie and her team last year when we set up the virtual service but i think

with the expand expansion of the space that you have now susie we might have some of these people who are providing remote support b was really wouldn't we

yes yeah absolutely so if anyone does have capacity to be coming in come on in yeah those remote rooms on the ground

floor in very very high demand yeah i think we have had one networker there every day for the past three weeks susie yeah yeah yeah so it's been great

yeah i'm not that does not surprise me um one and look there are you know for some people it works really well for some victims to be able to

i think you know moving forward i think it's really important to maintain this hybrid model of giving victims the option to either appear remotely or to physically attend so you know for

some victims they might live far away or it might be that they just feel really anxious about coming in and potentially bumping into the perpetrator in court or

you know they just might not want to kind of have to navigate around public transport finding a parking spot all of those things so they're really happy to just you know put the laptop in their kitchen open it up

and appear and give their evidence um but for others that can be really dangerous and really psychologically unsafe because you might be asking a victim

to um give evidence within the space where the offending happened um or you know that someone's home is really their safe space so last year in particular we had to

adjourn off a lot of matters during hard lockdown because it just was not safe um to have that victim giving evidence from home because they were effectively bringing the perpetrator into their safe

space and into their lounge room and that was something that we just couldn't do so um yeah moving forward i think this hybrid model is really important and hopefully

um we'll be able to satisfy you know those needs of um and people have very very different needs in those circumstances so great thank you so much for your time susie

thank you sorry again for the mix-up that's absolutely fine um you take care and thanks so much you too we'll talk soon thank you bye bye now

see you everyone all the best thanks susie i'm going to end this session now and we're going to have a break and we're going to come back into the other link

okay which is in slack and um because i need to stop this recording so i'll see everyone soon