Investing & Philanthropy - With Sir Chris Hohn, Founder, TCI Fund Management & CIFF

I'm particularly delighted [music] to release today's episode. In October, we held the inaugural money maze allocator [music] summit and over the two days there was fantastic discussion, debate,

insights, disagreement, and a lot of learning. But of all the conversations,

learning. But of all the conversations, one that particularly resonated with me was the chance to interview Sir Chris Hone about those two topics with which he is fantastically acquainted,

investing and philanthropy. And I think as you will discover in a minute that he perhaps stands above most mortals with the clarity of his thinking and the [music] extraordinary generosity and

effectiveness in both disciplines. Thank

you. I've had the pleasure of interviewing Chris Hernand twice before.

Um and we are really really appreciative of you being here today. Thank you so much. I think your investment success is

much. I think your investment success is probably only matched by your philanthropic generosity. Um, and we're

philanthropic generosity. Um, and we're going to talk about both of those today, investing and philanthropy. And I'm

conscious a little bit like an earlier panel with Birdie, I would uh I'd really like a couple of hours, but unfortunately that isn't possible. Um,

so will you come back next year?

[laughter] Chris, what's made you successful?

>> Well, and thanks for inviting me, Simon. Um

well investing is all about risk and return and vast majority of investors focus on return. That's what you see in any asset

return. That's what you see in any asset allocator. What's your returns? Yeah,

allocator. What's your returns? Yeah,

that's that's the only thing. But uh

I focused actually in in in in my career in in in on risk firstly. You know return does matter but

firstly. You know return does matter but uh to me risk was always the first thing that mattered and a lot of people have their own

definitions of risk. I I I love George Soros's definition which was not knowing what you're doing.

[clears throat] >> [laughter] >> So what does that mean? Um you know for me that's uh understanding what matters in

investing and um there was a spiritual master once he said uh very few things matter and most things don't

matter at all.

And that um could also apply to investing. So what does matter?

investing. So what does matter?

Competition matters because too much competition erodess your profits and um maybe you don't make any

money at all. So I I I hate competition and uh [laughter] um makes uh

um predictability and and and and valuation impossible. And um

valuation impossible. And um and the interesting thing so to me in a sense competition and disruption are the

whole thing. It's not about growth cuz

whole thing. It's not about growth cuz you can have a first move advantage grow for a period and then a new technology or a new competitor kills you off. Um

and the fact of the matter is that most investors underestimate the forces of competition and disruption.

because they underestimate complexity.

They look short term and uh and so we do two things really. We're we're

looking for such companies and and and uh with such high barriers to entry uh over the long term

that we think we can have a reasonable idea that they'll be around.

Okay. can't be precise about exactly what they'll be worth, but they'll be there in not in one, two, or three years, which is a normal time horizon of an investor, but in 20 or 30 years,

which is the time horizon where the value, if you do an MPV model, really is it's it's uh and so um

we we really try to get focus all our time on on on barrier

entry and disruption And uh so and the second component of the uh

philosophy if you like is long-termism.

Now that's fundamental. You know our average holding period of a stock in our portfolio is 8 years.

We've held stocks for 13 years and and 12 and 10, but the average is 8 years, which uh is like starting to get

into private equity land of of duration of investment and it's counting 8 years and counting.

Um now you may um but it's an interesting question. You

know, a lot of people make money with high frequency trading. The shorter the trading horizon, the better. The average

stock holding period is under a year of a a stock in on the in the US.

So, it's all very well to say you're long-term, but that's only a good thing.

It's not necessarily a good thing unless it works. And it only works if you're

it works. And it only works if you're right. [laughter] on the first point

right. [laughter] on the first point about the quality and of the company and the barriers to entry. But if you're right that that this company that you find a

company that is um going to be a good company long-term, then you should hold on to it because there's a persistency of these barriers to entry and the things that make it

good. So in simple terms, good companies

good. So in simple terms, good companies stay good and bad companies stay bad.

But if and I guess there's another point. There aren't that many great

point. There aren't that many great companies, the super companies of the world. And um

if you find them, you should hold on to them. So

them. So that's um and then there's related concepts like engagement and concentration, but those are secondary

to to the first points. So let me ask you about those barriers to entry because how has your thinking in identifying them changed in the last two

decades?

>> We've enlarged the universe over time of things that we um have found that are um more companies, more industries as as

we've learned like everyone we're always learning. if you're

learning. if you're um and uh the so I I I

always liked hard assets infrastructure um the um what came within that you know

could expand beyond we have owned a lot of airports and toll roads but you know we we we found toll roads in Europe then

from toll roads in Canada and the US through Ferovial and uh um

cell phone towers and um um the the so railroads and so

um the so but then beyond hard assets infrastructure we found other barriers to entry

um such as network effects. Okay. And

there certain industries uh payments is one. We've been a sher visa a long time

one. We've been a sher visa a long time where it it it there's this huge ever growing network connecting every customer and every bank

um to the world and the the as the network grows it becomes just ever

harder to replicate. Um,

aerospace is a sector that we've uh uh um come to learn about and understand and um where

the barriers to entry are multiple.

Often you you would like not just one barrier to entry but maybe five.

intellectual property. You could have its brands, um hard assets, contracts, um network effects

where big shelters and aircraft engines where you have many of those IP contracts, installed base is another barrier to entry where

customers can't switch regulatory switching costs. uh and and and so

switching costs. uh and and and so um the um so we we we we've expanded you

know rating agencies is another one. So

um the and one of the key sort of points of if you if you really do find uh one of

these super companies that can dominate their industries, they have something special which is pricing power which is a rare thing. So,

thing. So, most companies don't like to talk about it and um and it's a special thing because it means you can grow more than your

volume and uh and it's got a leveraged effect because if it's above inflation, so pricing bar means you can price above inflation then you there's no cost to that

and if you have a 10% margin it might give you know a huge every one point of real

pricing is is massive. It's it's uh it's super leveraged and potent. And so the um the um

so the um um but I think you you you you

world is changing uh so um much that uh some of these moes apparent moes are being just beaten down by AI and other other

disruption forces. So the forces of dis

disruption forces. So the forces of dis disruption I I would say are actually rising.

>> So that was what I wanted to get to.

Disruption is around us.

>> Um you know you've got access to you know all sorts of very clever people great conversations but how are you how do you think about identifying those those underlying weaknesses that may

derail the thesis?

>> Well you really want something that's obvious. Warren Buffett used to talk

obvious. Warren Buffett used to talk about this. If you can't put it on and

about this. If you can't put it on and and when it's not obvious, you probably just leave it alone cuz you it's probably not sustainable. So sustainable

barriers to entry. So

if we own an airport, it's pretty obvious in, you know, we own company that owns all the airports in Spain. We've owned

it for a decade. I was on the board.

No one's ever going to rebuild those.

overbuild you and 75% is unregulated.

So when you look at it the the the shops and you know so the infrastructure piece is uh especially looking at it unregulated tall roads where you have a 100redy year

duration or 60 years like for OVL those are you know people we don't know whether people are going to drive electric cars or which brand of electric car or

but it's pretty clear they're going to need these roads and so those are obvious things the um I'd say when you have multiple of these barriers to entry and no

alternative option. So we like aircraft

alternative option. So we like aircraft engines but will there be an alternative technology will they become electric? The science

doesn't really permit that and it's too expensive to replace the existing fleet.

So you probably got a pretty good visibility on 25 years and so we um

so things technologies that change are quickly aren't aren't good for us can't predict them. So I would say some

predict them. So I would say some principles would be multiple barriers to entry

and uh that that and essential need.

Yeah. Something [clears throat] that uh is is essential. So you've got to be confident of the need. So we you know are people still going to want to fly?

You know we believe that's a durable need you know. So, we don't like discretionary things. You know, I've

discretionary things. You know, I've never been an investor in the handbag business right?

>> Lots of people have and they've made lots of money in it, but I've never, you know, understood what makes one handbag

better than another. [laughter]

It's uh it's uh but it it's it's uh or why it's essential. So, anyway, it may well be I don't need to understand everything. Yeah, you just stay within

everything. Yeah, you just stay within your sphere of competence. That's what

Buffett said.

>> But we have this what is fabulous about the investing business is it the quantitative meets the qualitative. And

you've written a lot about engaging with management. And I wonder when you go to

management. And I wonder when you go to meet managements today, you've done this for a long time.

>> What what are you thinking about that conversation?

people think uh read about us and they say, "Oh, you uh you're an activist." Well,

we've done that. It's sort of a a tool, but we we we we prefer always to have constructive long-term relationships with management.

And the the we hold an investor day in New York every year

for our investors. And um this year we had the CEO of G Aerospace, the CEO of Airbus came to speak to our investors on

the stage at the same time. Never never

been done before.

Um CEO of Moody's, CEO of Vinci, um top executive from Visa. So

it it and every year we have the same thing uh it and these people come because they think we can add value to

them. Um

them. Um Aerosace analyst uh was invited by G CEO then to speak to their top 300 managers

about the company. So that's not normal.

Why do they do that? Because they think we understand the company and we can add sometimes some value. They find it a value added conversation. So

because we do so much so much research on a company that and we follow the industry so so we we want to be

want it to be a relationship. Okay. And

that means and and and and it to be a conversation. Now, of course, we weren't

conversation. Now, of course, we weren't always like that, but we've evolved. And

so, I'd say it's it's really really is engagement. Through engagement, you can

engagement. Through engagement, you can learn something. If it's a one-way

learn something. If it's a one-way conversation, you're just speaking at someone, you don't learn anything, and we have to learn.

>> But along your way, there will have been some investments that didn't work as well. And I wonder when you reflected on

well. And I wonder when you reflected on those, was there something in those conversations that maybe you weren't as sensitive to that maybe you are today?

Well, ultimately the the quality of the business trumps everything. And so,

everything. And so, um the you know, I'd say

you the um um does management matter? You know,

somewhat. Yep. It's not the key thing.

and a great manager in a in a bad business, they can't really necessarily do much. And so I think focusing on

do much. And so I think focusing on trying to assess management through conversation may miss

the point. Okay. So I think you you may

the point. Okay. So I think you you may overstate the value of the management and and and and um

and sometimes management won't even necessarily understand their own pricing power and latent pricing power or you

know so but I think I don't think the um [clears throat] I think it's

if I would say something on the the You've got to listen and see if you can learn and be humble. If you become arrogant, that's a killer in the investing business.

>> Yeah.

>> I try not to say anything. [laughter]

>> Um, yeah.

>> Given that there are stretched valuations in all sorts of parts of the world, you have been very comfortable shorting in the past. Sort of under what circumstances might you have more shorts

than you've had of late? you know, I've I've never really been um a significant short seller. I I I don't think I've

short seller. I I I don't think I've [clears throat] cumulatively made absolute money in it. And um

and I sort of uh agree with what Warren Buffett told me one night. I had a dinner with him and I asked him about shorting and he said

he didn't do it because uh they he and Charlie Maer concluded it was just too hard too unpredictable you know he thought long and hard about it because in shorting you need to also

understand investor psychology because when the short goes against you you you you have to fund the losses.

People think that's like a costless thing, but you you have to sell longs to fund the losses on shorts and you can

eventually right be right. But can you hold your position? You know, we were we did have a short a couple of years ago in uh Wirecott where we thought it

was a fraud, which is we have a very high bar on but and actually I I um

appropriate timing. I filed a public

appropriate timing. I filed a public criminal complaint against the company in the Munich prosecutor's office.

Was the company wasn't too happy. the chairman

used to be the CFO Deutsche Borosi said I was a liar and uh but within two weeks it was bankrupt now and then the media got involved and they went to Australia to meet a guy at

Bronty Capital >> who was one of the very first short sellers of uh uh Wire Card 20 years ago and they said the journalist said congratulations.

Yeah, it must be a big day for you.

Yeah, but the stock could have gone up 20x and he said I had to cover it after a year. It was I couldn't fund the

a year. It was I couldn't fund the losses. Yeah. So

losses. Yeah. So

I I I wasn't here to to to see the day it went bankrupt. Yeah. I lost. So

it's it's it's it's a very hard thing and and you can be squeezed. If you

watch the movie Dumb Money, it's a great movie. you'll see the the difficulties of short selling of being short squeezed. So there's so many

short squeezed. So there's so many technical issues that I uh you know sometimes

you just have to experience tells you um you know it's just too unpredictable and uh the you you you you

and because of the the the investor psychology point. Yeah. So, it's

psychology point. Yeah. So, it's

interesting. I see in the front rows Chris Dale of Kimbury Cabinet who also successfully shorted um Wire Card um for a while and well right to the end actually as it happens and I'm I'm an investor with them which is why I know.

What are you most excited about when you think about the investing landscape?

>> I like things that will just compound long term. I don't change year to year

long term. I don't change year to year very much. So I I I I you know I I I

very much. So I I I I you know I I I things that I feel confident will be around in 30 years in in a dominant position

excite me because it's just predictable.

I value predictability. You know it's uh and um sometimes

people you know your very question illustrates what most investors are looking for the next hot thing.

Yep. The new thing. And

sometimes I'll say a little bit sarcastically, will you want to invest say what's new? I say, do you need to change your wife every year?

[laughter] Yeah.

Can be a difficult conversation. Bin

always says, "Don't ask that question because people [laughter] might give them ideas." the uh so >> what do you know by the way that I don't

know >> yeah you wouldn't ask that question because you're happy with it yeah you're happy with what you've got yeah and uh

so and it's you know it's not that easy to find you know there's some truth in some of these funny examples it's not that easy to find the right partner it's

not that easy to find the right investment so why do you want change them immediately. If you find something good, it's going to be good long term, stick with it. And don't um

think that newer is always better. This

is what investors think. They don't

think about sustainability. They want

the next hot thing. They think growth is the thing, but new is the thing. But

that, you know, we want to be because so many people think

in terms of what John Kanes or I actually Benjamin Franklin, not Benjamin Franklin, but Benjamin Graham said uh that in the short term

the the the the market is a voting machine. What's hot? Yeah. What's new,

machine. What's hot? Yeah. What's new,

but in the long term it's a weighing machine. Yep. So

machine. Yep. So

in the co pelaton was hot. Yeah. Went to

$50 billion valuation. Everyone was on their Pelaton machine, but then you know virtually went to zero. Um,

and so yeah, we I think that's the the most important question is is just we're more interested in the question what is uh

what's going to be around rather than what's new.

>> Very clearly expressed. Let's switch to philanthropy.

Why?

>> Yeah. So I some and I talked before and you had a lot of questions on how and I said there's a a book and the book title

of the book is let's start with why. Yep. That's a a better question to start with. And um

it was um when um when I was 20, I went to the Philippines on a and saw people in poverty and I

thought living on a garbage heap and I thought this isn't right. If I could do something one day that would be a good thing to do.

But then I obviously I didn't have any resources and found my way to a hedge fund in New York and

after some years I had a good year and they paid me a bonus of $10 million.

I had a couple of million dollars. I

don't remember exactly not lots of money and I immediately gave it away to charity. I didn't I didn't want it. I

charity. I didn't I didn't want it. I

gave set up a foundation and put it into it. I didn't

it. I didn't and I couldn't um tell you that you know the reasoning I

just thought this isn't really something I should have. Yeah. And then I started doing more and more and uh but I I didn't understand it for 20 years I was

doing philanthropy. sound strange to

doing philanthropy. sound strange to say.

Remember sitting down with Bill Gates and him asking me the same question. I I and it was only in in in

recent years I I I I sort of figured it out that uh why uh and um

that actually there's a something within all of us who call it consciousness.

Some people call it the soul.

Now my son, I tried to explain this to him. He said

to me, "Dad, the soul is a myth."

[laughter] And uh actually I don't think so, but and it's this that uh drew me. It's the

basic urge of the soul is to to do service. And uh and so that's was a

service. And uh and so that's was a souldriven thing. And uh you just it's

souldriven thing. And uh you just it's not of the intellect, it's of uh call it

higher mind or intuition. So that's the answer uh to the question. Um

[clears throat] and also uh yeah it's a it's a knowing if you like.

>> So there'll be people in the room small large donated to charity regularly. Um

how do you prioritize?

Yeah, I think there's two answers to it. One is what you know what is it? What do you feel passionate about? And then there's

passionate about? And then there's another more analytical answer. The

intellectual, you know, there's intuition and intellect. Two different

ways of thinking. And the intellect you I look for high leverage and fundamental things. Yeah. things that

fundamental things. Yeah. things that

are the back to the what what's most important. So

important. So one of the things I'm really passionate about

is contraception in poor countries.

Now in Africa where I do most of my work the the the women on average will have nearly seven

children. Now, they don't want seven

children. Now, they don't want seven children, just to be clear. If it's it's not their choice, they don't own their bodies often and for various reasons.

Um, usually economic. Yep. And um and so

usually economic. Yep. And um and so but it's foundational because if if a woman let's say wants two children not seven

children and she's so poor she can't you know feed or there or have health for those seven children if you she has the two children

instead of the seven you see everything is much easier. Yeah. It's it's it's sort of obvious stuff. And the other thing I'd look at is where there's

it's un unfunded or underfunded. Yeah.

So, you know, the the the um uh you know, contraception, it's sort of seen as a controversial thing

for some reason. In the Millennium Development Goals, nobody put a fertility target. That was deemed too

fertility target. That was deemed too controversial. They've conflated it with

controversial. They've conflated it with coercion which is stupid and uh so I'm also interested in you know so for $10

and it can back to value for money you can avoid an un fund an un avoided unwanted pregnancy.

So the value for money is incredible. um

um other areas that that you know I'm passionate about uh are very involved in climate change is [snorts] foundational. It will undermine

[snorts] foundational. It will undermine all of development as soils uh uh dry out drought won't be

people will have less to eat you know hunger malnutrition and it's it impacts the poorest first. Yeah. country is

already hot and getting hotter and so [clears throat] climate is really also foundational um

and uh and urgent um I'm also other areas um I love neglected tropical diseases because uh in impact is

enormous about seven disease impacting two billion people many of which people never heard about like traoma and river blindness and lymphatic foliosis and

cytosmiasis. Anyway, the these things

cytosmiasis. Anyway, the these things can be eliminated and the drug companies have actually funded for free the drugs.

It just needs someone to do you know mass drug administration which is very cheap and so it's really a crime not to do this and um traoma surgeries is

people go permanently blind for $50 surgery. Yeah. Isn't that crazy?

So um but I also there are other big things that are I care about that are foundational as well like child marriage. That's a big thing.

So go ahead.

>> So so it's a little bit like the top down and bottom up of our business. So

when you identify that theme terrific but you have to choose a part. How do

you think about that? Yeah, because um we what do I have just money? Yeah, money

is a commodity and uh so I have to work through people and and uh the um so we

I guess we have three types of partners uh governments, NOS's and companies and uh um [clears throat]

if you can find if you can do this through governments it's it's it's uh it it's

perfect is it's more sustainable okay and [snorts] so and sometimes we'll do both we'll fund NGOs to work through governments

um because the the um so what's an example um messaging to

uh women in Ethiopia and to married couples in Ethiopia through community health workers funded by government there um about the benefits of contraception

uh is actually free.

They they already fund the the community health worker. We found that 70% of the

health worker. We found that 70% of the women who were the couples who were messaged to about the financial cost

would you believe of of of of uh having you know lots of children uh started taking contraceptives who weren't and

and sustained it. So it's an incredible program. they've rolled it out through

program. they've rolled it out through the country.

Um and uh and so we love if we can to work through governments you know NOS's why NOS's well where sometimes

governments don't have the innovation they don't have the um uh uh um and the

>> [clears throat] >> um so or the interest Okay. So,

Okay. So, child marriage in India got uh um um is something where

it's not uh something requires uh if there's going to be and often an NGO has to to to why do you need an NGO is an interesting

question. Yeah. Why can't you just tell

question. Yeah. Why can't you just tell government the idea?

Well, sometimes governments don't care.

Okay. Why do we Yeah.

Or a And uh and until um so the NGO, you know, tried to stop child marriages, you could end up being killed. Yeah. In

some of these places, you know, it's not for the faint-hearted. So, it's not that they don't care. They're not willing to sort of put their life in danger. Um and

so you often find NOS's care more and uh and uh so so especially if you can pick the the the right leadership

um and uh so I do a lot with grassroots NOS's but we're always trying to prove a concept and then get governments to scale it. So

scale it. So we did um um and companies I give you a couple of examples. There

may some market failure.

So a few years ago, 10 years ago, there was a company that patented therapeutic food for severe acute malnourished kids. Company called

Neutraet. And they

which was a bogus patent is it wasn't novel but they prevented other companies producing it to to make money and I

funded a company to break that monopoly and and and uh in fact I put in the contract that they they were sued to cease and desist they had to continue

[laughter] had fun the litigation but they couldn't uh stop and uh companies called man nutrition and uh put $200 million into it and now they

have a capacity of $500 million of this.

They've saved over 10 million lives.

Okay. And um

but I um but they're a nonprofit so they never made any money.

CEO calls it an upside down company where their performance is measured in lives saved not not money but the you know why would other people they say there's not enough

money in it. Yeah. Or there was someone trying to patent it. So there all sorts of reasons but the social payoff is enormous. Yeah. So sometimes there's

enormous. Yeah. So sometimes there's stuff that um um philanthropy can be catalytic in a way

which uh so we'll we'll use any any partner that's in intelligent but you really want to find people who care. See

this is a strange thing to say but you know my early days I would ask well can you hire mercenaries you [laughter]

people who just care about money and I came to realize uh that it it it it doesn't work you know you need people who

uh it's from the heart >> and so therefore performance measurement takes on a different perspective.

>> Yeah. No, performance is an interesting question. Okay. And um

question. Okay. And um

because if you don't understand the theory of change and the you can make a big mistake

and I by measuring the wrong thing.

Now um especially back to the point if you don't know what you're doing. So

here's an example. For 10 years, I funded this company that did contraception for adolescence.

Now what's an adolescence? In some

cases, they were, you know, children. And I was brought into a slum a couple of years ago to meet these girls and I

and I knew immediately something was very wrong as they were so depressed.

And if you looked into their eyes, there was nothing behind the eyes.

Psychologists would say that they were dissociated. Yeah. I would say it's soul disconnected.

And I asked them why why do you need the contraceptives?

They wouldn't answer the question. I

said uh so the KPI was did they get the contraceptive on paper? It was all great. They all got

on paper? It was all great. They all got the contraceptives very low cost.

I said I asked the question will because they wouldn't do you have boyfriends they said no. I said do you have husbands? They said no.

husbands? They said no.

And they were 15 16 17. I said then why the hell do you need these contraceptives? And they said because

contraceptives? And they said because we're being raped all the time since we're aged eight.

And then other girls told me they were having to prostitute themselves to eat.

So suddenly the performance indicator of did they get the contraceptive and what was the unit cost of the contraceptive

was was missing the point. These girls

had to find a way out of their their situation. Yep. Yeah. So,

their situation. Yep. Yeah. So,

so you got to understand the root cause and uh and rather than just working on symptoms because uh

the KPI may not capture the quality of life. Yeah. Life isn't about just years.

life. Yeah. Life isn't about just years.

Yeah. the you know the those girls as is the case for many women in these poor countries they're living in hell and so

but if you were just looking at numbers you don't see it and [snorts] the only reason I saw it is through looking at the

as human beings and saying something's wrong here so of course we look at cost

uh benefit And but sometimes the the and another key point is I we prevention versus cure. You know if you

can prevent you know there just so many no-brainers I call them. You can test someone with a saliva test or a rapid blood test for

HIV and find a positive person. Put them

on treatment for $300.

Done 11 million tests with the global fund. So so simple. So you stop that

fund. So so simple. So you stop that person spreading it to multiple other people for $300. Yeah. So the the the So

[snorts] but you've got to try to get to root cause. Why um you know

root cause. Why um you know why are you know and it's not always obvious or simple.

Why why are children being married off?

Is it economics? Is it consciousness? is

actually you do need to change consciousness >> which of course leads to my last question which is you give an example your former example I can't think how AI

could help the latter is that AI might help how are you allowing it to help >> you know everyone thinks AI is the be

all and end all of humanity world there is one problem with AI it doesn't have consciousness >> [clears throat] >> or conscience.

A friend of mine told me last week that uh friend of hers, her daughter was very depressed and she was using Chachi BT to

talk to. very isolated and uh

talk to. very isolated and uh and without going into the detail she ended up committing suicide

and the AI didn't obviously do anything.

Yep. So

we we're we're um as a species we've confused intelligence with you know and knowledge

and and and you know consciousness. And so without you we think information and intelligence is the be all and end all.

there's something more powerful which is love and heart and consciousness and without that connection and actually people are becoming more disconnected

from that always on their phones always thinking that chatbt or the latest AI can give them the answer will

the you know the becoming more and more in intellect and so I think we have to actually um we're sort of entering uh

you know a more and more dangerous point for humanity because the um we're we

sort of have lost the plot when we think that AI will solve all humanity's problems you know couldn't be clearer that problems are

getting worse yeah no solution for climate change no solution for poverty wars you know you name it. And uh

inequality divisiveness hatred it's all rising.

And I think, you know, the And so I think there needs to be a a new paradigm in consciousness. And it's not about AI.

in consciousness. And it's not about AI.

It's it's it it's it's it's it's about love if you and um and there are foundational principles,

you know, um that are rather um disruptive such as ownership.

Do we owe you this concept that we own things and that it's as I've always thought I actually don't own anything. I'm just

a custodian.

Yeah. What is that? Yeah. Which is it's money isn't mine. It's to be given away and it's service to humanity.

And um if you go out of the intellect into intuition, you know, which is why maybe give away that money, you know, [clears throat] when we're on

our deathbed, we I don't think we think we own things. Yeah. And uh why would we? Because ultimately everything is a

we? Because ultimately everything is a gift. It's not as it's you know I didn't

gift. It's not as it's you know I didn't you make all this money because I was smart or lucky. It was you know I think

because I'm willing to give it away. And

uh so I think you know the most important thing back [clears throat] to what matters is is consciousness and love. And if we

connect to that then we'll find purpose you know and and and uh so I think for me in a nutshell philanthropy has given me purpose.

>> What a great place to stop. Mr. Chris

you have given so much to the world and thank you for your time today. Thank

you.

>> [applause]