Is AI about to Tear Society Apart? We Asked Andrew Yang

I think the main gift I have is that I don't socialize well [laughter] and I'm sure there are a lot of folks in Silicon Valley who are like I'm smarter than these people. I think I can do a

better job but then they don't actually run for president.

>> What is your updated take right now on the impending effect of AI?

>> When I was running for president I would talk about bluecollar examples and I would talk about truck drivers. I should

have gone immediately to management consultants, [music] law school grads, coders. I mean, if I've been running

coders. I mean, if I've been running around being like, "Hey, coders, you're effed." Back in 2018, it would have

effed." Back in 2018, it would have seemed very far out.

>> If you lose 15 million jobs in the course of 3 years, that's revolution.

That is very bad.

>> You're seeing, by the way, political violence. You're seeing flare-ups.

violence. You're seeing flare-ups.

You're seeing [music] deaths of despair.

Anyone who thinks that that's off the table isn't paying any attention.

Welcome to the Miners One podcast where we interview the most interesting people in the world about the winding paths that they have taken to tackle the journeys that they have chosen to go on.

Very excited today to welcome two people actually, one of my partners, Mark on his first appearance on the Miners One podcast uh and someone that you know I've kind of uh seen from afar and

admired from afar, Andrew Andrew Yang.

He's done a lot of different things in his life, but Mark, you've known Andrew for a long time. Tell us a little bit about him. Yeah. So, I've been lucky

about him. Yeah. So, I've been lucky enough to know Andrew now for more than 25 years. Um, really excited to co-host

25 years. Um, really excited to co-host him today. He's the only person I know

him today. He's the only person I know who's actually been a successful entrepreneur, presidential candidate, author of five now six books, provocator, math guy, dad, husband,

regular guy, uh, and, uh, lucky to say here, old friend. really excited to talk to you today about a number of things, but maybe the first is given the extraordinary career path and the

choices you've made. One of the things we talk about a lot at South Park Commons is agency and how the best entrepreneurs in the world, the people who really bend the arc of history are people who just do things. They don't

ask permission. They just go and get things done. And your career speaks to

things done. And your career speaks to that in spades. From the Venture for America work uh to most extraordinarily the run for president. I still remember the day you showed up at Garden Health

to tell me you were running and I I was very confused at first running for president of what um and and then you actually made an incredible go of it.

I'd love to talk about where this agency comes from like what was it in your childhood. What is it that drives you

childhood. What is it that drives you that has allowed you to continue to do things that are really extraordinary from starting your own political party to now building and running your own

business? you know, I was the the son of

business? you know, I was the the son of immigrants and felt out of place u when I was a kid, but then also like a sense

of struggle that I wanted to overcome.

And so I I think there was like a chip on my shoulder for a lot of my life. And

my mom said to me when I was a kid, it's like, look, if you don't succeed, it's just because you didn't try hard enough.

Like your ability level is higher than anyone around you. So if you fail, you didn't exert yourself. And I took that to heart. I was like, "All right, I

to heart. I was like, "All right, I guess if someone else can do it, I should be able to do it." And Mark was an early influence on me where I saw him running a company called Small World. And then thought like, "Holy

World. And then thought like, "Holy [ __ ] this guy that's not that much older than me. He's like running his own company. Like I need to try and figure

company. Like I need to try and figure out how the hell you end up running your own company. That guy figured it out. So

own company. That guy figured it out. So

let me try and figure it out." Of

course, uh it ended up not being that easy. You know, I I did uh start a

easy. You know, I I did uh start a company that failed. You know, it's not that hard to start a company. It's just

much harder to start one that goes anywhere. And so, I I had a number of

anywhere. And so, I I had a number of stumbles and falls that my Asian parents were very happy to remind me of [laughter] that throughout my 20s. But some of the

experiences I had when I was a kid that really hurt me were like getting turned down by girls. And like I felt like if you uh you know like can withstand rejection from Noel Ver boys or whoever

the heck the girl is, then getting rejected by a company or an investor or a voter [laughter] is like small potatoes. I was very

sensitive as a kid and so I think it kind of thickened my skin for later.

>> That's fascinating. I hope Noel knows how important she's been in shaping the future of American politics. Uh I I am curious though because one one thing people do sometimes after failures is a

flight to safety, right? You could have taken a big job at a safe company and instead you kept doing things that were entrepreneurial.

>> Yeah. So I I started out as uh an associate at a big law firm called Davis Poken Wardwwell that some of you know because it's very fancy. Left after 5 months. So that was my flight from

months. So that was my flight from safety and then start a company that flops, another company runs out of money, another company sort of doesn't

achieve its goals. And there was a point in there, I will say this to your audience who are going to, you know, then like I probably would have fled to safety if if safety had been there.

[laughter] I'm like um so I mean I became a nightclub promoter. I became a test prep

nightclub promoter. I became a test prep tutor. I did a bunch of side hustles

tutor. I did a bunch of side hustles because I thought, well, [ __ ] I need to be able to rely upon myself and assume that my company is going to like, you

know, be shaky. Um, because in some cases, the company, I mean, the company I started ran out of money. So, that's

on me. But then the next company I joined uh was, you know, run by other people and ran out of money. So, at a certain point, you're like, "Oh, I guess I should just expect things to run out

of money." And those experiences too

of money." And those experiences too toughen me up because it's like, you know, you have a couple of companies fail. Um, I used to joke that no one

fail. Um, I used to joke that no one knows you have a net worth of negative $100,000 unless you're stupid enough to tell them. Um, but if you just met me,

tell them. Um, but if you just met me, you might think I was like a smart guy who had, you know, something going for him and not realize I was a total failure. I guess I really did get

failure. I guess I really did get toughened up through a set of failures u throughout my 20s. Let me ask a question here which I've often um thought about which is you know I think there's a

classic study that shows that people's perceptions around how well markets perform in general are a function of essentially how well did the stock market do when they first entered the

workforce like was the stock market booming or kind of like was it like kind of going up or going down when they were in their early 20s and that kind of forms your perception of like are markets do the markets generally go up

or do they generally go down right are you default optimistic or pessimistic.

So, one of the things I often think about is that I had the good fortune early on in my career to meet someone who is who I still deeply admire today.

This is Mark Zuckerberg. Zuck is like in some ways a personification of you can just do things, right? And I learned from him that like age is not kind of a barrier. Like all it is is like a kind

barrier. Like all it is is like a kind of high agency and will and you can just like there's no problem that you can't tackle if you put your mind to it. So,

and you obviously were lucky enough to meet Mark Jacobstein kind of early in your career to kind of like show you that same path. Does that resonate? Like

do you think that this is a function really of this is like a lot of like people's pensions for risk is really kind of path dependent on really like the the formative years early in their

career, right? which means that you know

career, right? which means that you know we really like you know something like SPC obviously can play a big part because you know and a lot of the other kind of you know institutions in the same uh in the same ilk. I do think

those early exposures shape your perception of uh the way things go. When

I was starting out it was 99 2000 and so it's like the waning days of the uh first tech bubble. Uh and then my company died when the bubble burst. Uh,

I remember NASDAQ went from 5,000 to 2,000 and companies I'd literally attended launch parties for a few months earlier were shutting down all around

me. And so seeing that you realize like

me. And so seeing that you realize like oh wow it really all can go away and uh bubbles definitely exist and burst and you know I saw people ride the hype

train up and then um ride it down and a lot of my friends who are entrepreneurs were struggling for the next couple of years and my wife joke sometimes that uh she thinks I'm always waiting for the

shoe to drop somewhat negatively. Uh I

don't know if you guys read my book from the presidential war on normal people but it's fairly dark. It's fairly

dystopian. It's like, hey, AI is going to come. It's going to eat the jobs,

to come. It's going to eat the jobs, like blah blah blah. And I remember when I was doing research for the book, I was like, am I just very pessimistic? And

I'm an entrepreneur, so I'm very optimistic by action, but am I pessimistic by outlook? Uh, but then I looked at the facts and I was like, no, no, I'm actually pretty confident that

this stuff, uh, you know, is going to head in this direction. I I want to ask more about that because I there's an extraordinarily extraordinary dichotomy here between you wrote a book you know the the war on normal people and I think

you were one of the first people to talk about AI is going to change workforce dynamics in really profound ways and I think your your quote from just a day or two ago was about 40 million jobs that we're going to lose and I don't think

you're wrong I think hopefully there's a sort of Javon's paradox and lots of other uh productivity increases will help absorb a lot of that but there's going to be a lot of pain and you were one of the very first people to talk about about it in a very blunt and real

way and it led to conversations about UBI and a bunch of other things we can talk about. You're also the same person

talk about. You're also the same person who wrote smart people should build things which is a deeply optimistic book about the fact that the smartest people

should be making stuff and maybe not working for Davis Pulk and maybe you know think about not going to Mackenzie instead like make stuff and you have the the pessimistic piece and the optimistic

piece and how they all sort of fit together for you and what you do with that tension. Uh so again I I consider

that tension. Uh so again I I consider myself optimistic by action. Like I wake up every day saying okay uh Noble Mobile is going to save Americans billions of dollars and get us off of our phones. Uh

you know stop the brain rot, touch grass, look up. So it's all very positive. Um that said I also listened

positive. Um that said I also listened to data and numbers. And what happened to me um was I ran Venture for America

which had very very positive goals and realized that for every startup that creates 50 or 100 jobs there is going to

be an innovation that decimates 10 times as many jobs. And so it's like well like if I'm going to be clearheaded about this I'm pouring water into a bathtub bathtub that has giant holes ripped in

the bottom. So like does it make sense

the bottom. So like does it make sense to keep pouring water? Now, if someone comes to me and says, "Hey, my jam is pouring water." I'm like, "Fan,

pouring water." I'm like, "Fan, fuckingastic." Like, you know, do that.

fuckingastic." Like, you know, do that.

Love it. Uh, you know, you employ those 50 100 people, you're going to change their lives and careers. I mean, I've done that and it's some of the stuff I'm the proudest of. But having traveled the

country even at that point, you see that there first high school graduates outnumber college graduates in this country 2 to1. Uh, and a lot of the

innovations I hoped that would employ lots of people just aren't going to employ a lot of what I called normal people because like the normal person in America is not a college graduate even

today. I mean, you know, even after this

today. I mean, you know, even after this number of years like the I think the proportion of college graduates in this country might be 38%. And so I started

to enlarge my perspective, Mark. I think

like I'm really today very positive about my life, my family's life. I'm

positive about your your lives, the two of you, because I have a feeling they're pretty good. [laughter]

pretty good. [laughter] But then uh you know, I took a look around uh by the numbers and was like, "Yo, this is going to be go really really poorly for like the two million

call center workers, the 2.8 million truck drivers, the three million clerks or like whatever the categories were."

And so that's when I started to uh think about running for president because I thought that was the only thing that could make a difference at the right scale.

>> I will give you a bunch of credit. You

saw that [ __ ] a lot like a lot earlier than most people like and you know I live me and Mark and we live in a world where a lot of people like to make predictions but I think you saw that way

earlier than most and it's obviously accelerated even in the last like 2 or 3 years. So that's props on that. That's

years. So that's props on that. That's

that is you know a lot of people think yeah that's props >> and I I actually it's it's related to a question that I had in general you you've seen trends before people so you were talking about job displacement and what it was going to mean before anybody

else and UBI before anybody else and then it was actually Sam who came along soon thereafter and uh and I think I think probably largely inspired by you.

You're also like the first Democrat to talk about, you know, the problems of cancel culture and folks being overly woke and problems with two-party systems and the need for things like rank choice

voting. You've always been, I think, out

voting. You've always been, I think, out ahead and a provocator. I mean, now, you know, talking about the addiction to mobile phones and the fact that we all need to be spending more time IRL, which

I think is absolutely true and incredibly important. So, talk to me

incredibly important. So, talk to me about like the systems that help you to do this. I mean, you're obviously very

do this. I mean, you're obviously very sharp. There's lots of smart people who

sharp. There's lots of smart people who don't see the future so well. So, I I'm curious about like is there a thing that helps you to do that? Is there is there a reason you think that that's been sort of part of your DNA?

>> I think the main gift I have uh is that um I don't socialize well. Um and and by by that what I mean is like if you stick

me with a bunch of people that all um went to fancy schools and like because you know you know Mark I know where you went I don't know but I assume it was pretty fancy.

>> Not as not as fancy as Mark you know I went to Carnegie >> fancyish [laughter] fancy.

>> Yeah. It's like I I am around these people and I just think to myself like you know that these people are a slice of a slice of a slice very often. Um and

like I don't think it defines reality.

[laughter] That's the main thing.

>> Uh and so then when I try and figure out what defines reality, I just look for numbers like okay like this is the closest thing I can find to it and then I try and follow those. I took a test a

little while ago trying to identify my political alignment by personality and I came up completely neutral [laughter]

like you know I'm just pretty much >> you can feel that I think in very in very good ways in that case. Andrew you

strike me as one of the people who maybe I've met who has the highest score on agency cuz most people have all these you know provocative ideas but they don't act upon it. they just kind of like have theories but you actually have

the remarkable tendency to go and actually do something about it and you've done this multiple times that's very rare even in Silicon Valley which I think is probably the best crucible for

high agency in the world in my opinion uh but you having done so in multiple domains um that's that's very rare yeah >> oh thank you I mean I certainly see

Silicon Valley as the crucible and when I spend time there I get invigorated I feel like, oh yeah, like these are people who are doing things. I just

think I've picked different domains that a smart person would avoid, like the plague, uh, like politics. [laughter]

>> It's a tough lifestyle. I still give, you know, your wife a lot of credit for sort of letting you go do that. I I

gotta say, >> yeah. Uh, I mean, I visited Iowa 25

>> yeah. Uh, I mean, I visited Iowa 25 times uh, and Italy zero times in my life. [laughter] So that

life. [laughter] So that some distinct travel itineraries but I felt by the way you'll appreciate this

Adia um from that comment um if if someone starts a business uh and you ask them how much time are you going to put into this um they'll be like I have no idea but it's probably at least a

minimum of five years because you know companies take a while and so when I decided to run for president I said I just need to do everything perfectly in

my power for realistically was only like you know two years and three months you know I declared in February 2018 and also not being um you know like diluted

like I thought it was probably going to end before the um end of the nomination process. So I was like, okay, I just

process. So I was like, okay, I just need to be awesome and nearly superhuman for two years, which if you were to say to an entrepreneur, can you do that?

They'd be like, I can do two years. I

can do two years of just about anything, you know? Whereas um starting a company

you know? Whereas um starting a company uh like I am doing now with Noble Mobile, it's like if you said, "Hey, I'm going to do this for two years." You're

a [ __ ] terrible entrepreneur because you're like, "What the [ __ ] you going to get done in two years?" [laughter]

So in in a way I tried to frame it as like running for president was actually easier than some other undertakings >> and and more highly leveraged. I mean,

this is one of these things, you know, you live in Silicon Valley for long enough and we we like to think we're sort of the center of the universe and the companies that we build are going to change the most impactful thing you can do in human society. And I'm I don't

want to underestimate the importance of technological advancement. But President

technological advancement. But President of the United States runs a pretty has a pretty big budget and a pretty big finger on the lever as we know for good or for bad. And so I I do think it's

it's interesting. Sometimes you get

it's interesting. Sometimes you get people from DC out here and they're like, you know, people in Silicon Valley are kind of full of themselves. Um, I

think it's it's a useful perspective and reminder every once in a while.

>> Well, this is a frustration I'm going to express to you guys. Um, I I just want to share this with you, too. So, I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I had no intention of running for

president as late as uh 2017 because Venture for America operated in 12 cities and none of them were in Iowa or New Hampshire. I could easily have been like, "Hey, we're going to roll out

in Iowa City and Manchester, New Hampshire." And I never did because I

Hampshire." And I never did because I had no uh intention of, you know, running for for that office. One of the things that moved me was watching the Republican presidential primary debates

in 2016 and thinking, "These people are [ __ ] terrible." like uh you know you watch them and some of them I'm sure like maybe some of you know and worked with Carly Fiorina as an example but

like I watched a bunch of these others and I was like these guys man like I'm like I mean I didn't I even then at that point I did not think like oh I'm going to do this myself but I thought like I'm

I'm at least as smart as these guys and I'm pretty sure I have you know like better um ideas and better intentions and I'm sure there are a lot of folks in Silicon Valley to that point Mark who

are like you know, hey, I'm smarter than these people. Like, I think I can do a

these people. Like, I think I can do a better job. But then they don't actually

better job. But then they don't actually run, >> you know, unless their name is Tom Styer or like a couple of people that that have gone down this path. And so that step, look, I don't think everyone

should run for president, though. I do

think more people should run for president. You know, I think that would

president. You know, I think that would be like better, [laughter] interesting, more dynamic. There's like

that sense that that so many folks I know from some of these elite circles look and say like I could do better but then they their life is too good you know and then they stop there.

>> It' be interesting. I I haven't thought about this as to whether or not it is that their life is too good or that even for the ent folks who are entrepreneurs like I'm going to change the world and make a business and it's super hard to do think like running for president

that's crazy. I mean like who am I to

that's crazy. I mean like who am I to run for president? I I still I mean I do remember the day you we we met at Garden Health and you were like I'm running for president and I literally thought to myself, president of what because it is

such a like the idea is you do it from the establishment. You you weren't

the establishment. You you weren't already a congressman or a senator or like it's it's it's just a very odd idea and it shouldn't be like we're a democracy like our our original framers

like they were farmers.

>> Two rules. It's just natural born citizen and 35 years of age. There's not

like and you have to be an office holder and you have to do like no Very importantly, you can only have done it for a total of eight years. [laughter]

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> There's a third rule.

>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true too.

>> Whenever anybody who is in the arena is being criticized by, you know, kind of like the peanut gallery, I'm just like, man, if you if you haven't been in the arena, then you have no right to kind of like comment on like, you know, what can or should be done. If you've never been

an entrepreneur, it's so difficult to criticize people who are going through the journey. Like how do you know kind

the journey. Like how do you know kind of like the vicissitudes and the ups and downs of the roller coasters? I mean you know this like this is probably your third or fourth company it is super [ __ ] hard to start a company right

and if you have never started one you don't actually realize just the magnitude of difficulty of dealing with your own emotions on a day-to-day basis that you just never have to face if you kind of are frankly like your paycheck

is kind of guaranteed on a day-to-day basis where if an entrepreneur you kind of have to generate that payroll like you know every two weeks. Um, so to coming back to your point, I'm like, it's great that Tommy Styer is maybe

running for, you know, I don't know, it sounds like he might be running for governor of California.

>> He's running for governor.

>> And, you know, Tom spoke at SPC a few years ago. And I'm like, listen, I don't

years ago. And I'm like, listen, I don't know how far you're going to get, but it's a lot of respect for the fact that you're out there doing something, right?

Like, you're actually doing something.

And I wish more people did it. Frankly,

like I'm looking at myself. I'm like,

why? I can't run for president because I'm not a, you know, I'm a naturalized citizen, but why can't I think about being a senator or congressman or something, right? And the fact that I

something, right? And the fact that I don't makes me think about >> we're not ready to give you updates.

>> Well, you know, sorry Mark, you know what we have done is that two people in the San Francisco Board of Supervisors are actually from SBC. So we are helping uh kind of like you know I would say the

political uh change. Uh but Andrew you were going to say something.

>> Oh yeah. So um I gave a TED talk last year. It was the number seven TED talk

year. It was the number seven TED talk of 2024. One of the things I want to put

of 2024. One of the things I want to put out there is that the highest uh level of value that can be produced the highest leverage now is not even running for office oneself. It's trying to fix

the system and the incentives. And there

are ways that you can contribute to that without running for US senator or whatnot. Um, so I just want to put that

whatnot. Um, so I just want to put that out there. Um, because here's the trap,

out there. Um, because here's the trap, and this is something, you know, um, like I've heard any number of times where people think, okay, I should vote, I should give money, and then I should run for office, and that that should be

like the hierarchy. But then people are turned off because they're like, wait a minute. Um, if I run for office, uh,

minute. Um, if I run for office, uh, some people are going to hate me and yell at me. Uh, it's going to be a lifestyle downgrade. I'm not sure if I'm

lifestyle downgrade. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do as much good as I want to anyway. And by the way, like rational. totally rational. I uh even

rational. totally rational. I uh even had in my list of life goals when I was first dating Evelyn, elevate a national political figure. It was not be one. It

political figure. It was not be one. It

was like find one, find another schmuck and then like help them. And so that that's totally again like smart. It's

like rational stuff. And then a lot of excellent people are turned off by politics of today and you know reasonable. Um so so there are things

reasonable. Um so so there are things you can do though like the highest level thing you can do right now is to try and cure the system. Um and the way to cure the system is not to play on one team or

another but to create a new team and fix the incentives. And if that's totally

the incentives. And if that's totally mystifying to anyone listening to this, please just do look up Andrew Yang TED talk and then I go through it in like 10 like 11 minutes uh and say like this is

why things are so [ __ ] and here's a real life concrete way we could fix it and you know there are some awesome people that are are working toward that.

So there there are things you can do that don't involve running for office.

>> And these are structural things like rank choice voting and getting rid of gerrymandering and all the things that would having a third party or fourth party or fifth party etc. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like non nonpartisan

>> Yeah. Yeah. Like non nonpartisan primaries is the single biggest step.

The the problem is that everyone's held captive by the 11% that are voting in the base of each party and then they just run scared of them and then they you know rubber stamp everything from from that corner. Uh and then the rest

of us are like what the hell's going on?

So uh it it's any techie in particular who digs into these incentive structures would be like oh I would expect really weird polarizing bad policy results from

this system and so the only logical thing to do is try and fix the system.

It's very much a Silicon Valley approach. The problem is that people are

approach. The problem is that people are tribal and like get dragged into this or that. I will say like I think a lot of

that. I will say like I think a lot of people ended up siding with Trump in a way that my opinion just saying probably not shocking to people was misplaced

because I think Trump's you know like uh uh an accelerant to the disintegration of various institutions and I think it's you know it's not great but I think it's

a result of the fact that they didn't like what was going on in the previous administration and that you have this like two-sided system where you're like oh if I don't like these guys then I guess I like these guys. Uh, and then the pendulum keeps swing swinging. I

think most Silicon Valley people are actually somewhere in this in between zone naturally where you want >> like maybe abundance Democrats is kind of their their >> Yeah. You want good policy. You want

>> Yeah. You want good policy. You want

results. You want, you know, your kids to be able to walk down the street without like stepping over a homeless person or like human um PCs or any of that jazz. You're pro data. Uh, you

that jazz. You're pro data. Uh, you

know, you'd like to to see good results and people make those decisions. You're

not super ideological. By the way, this is an appeal I make to Asian Americans, too. I'm just like, guys, like, you

too. I'm just like, guys, like, you know, we're like the pragmatic results crew. We're not like the, you know,

crew. We're not like the, you know, tribal warfare crew. [laughter]

So, um, you know, Star Trek instead of Mad Max is like the shortand. Um,

[laughter] uh, but but but like that crew in my opinion should be looking at this political system and be like, okay, like this is what needs to change. But this

makes me think that like your hat should say systems not math. I mean math is shorthand for it. But like and and I get it that it's sort of data driven but actually even more important than the

math and the ability to extrapolate etc. I feel like is the thinking from first principles and I go back to like how is it that Andrew Yang has done all of these extraordinary things. I feel like there's a lot of good first principal

thinking like I need I'm going to build venture for America because we need more good jobs in places like Detroit. So,

here's the thing I can do that will impact that. Or I'm going to reform the

impact that. Or I'm going to reform the American political system because that's actually even more impactful than me being an individual politician. You

could probably go run for Congress. You

could find a district right now. You

have enough name recognition and they love you over at CNN, etc. You could you could find a place to go run for Congress, etc., but you can probably do more have more impact as a systems

thinker. And I think that's probably if

thinker. And I think that's probably if I think about like your superpower that that it's it's that plus the ability to actually um hang out with the regular guys, which uh I think is a very rare

thing for people who've actually chosen to run for office. There are definitely people who wanted me to run for this office or that office and I wasn't as drawn to it in part because of what you're describing. Mark, I'm going to be

you're describing. Mark, I'm going to be a good entrepreneur and CEO right now and pitch why what I'm doing now is more beneficial. [laughter]

beneficial. [laughter] >> Do it. We haven't we haven't had a chance to get to Noble Mobile, but I'm I'm very curious and and uh I love the idea of the tech entrepreneur trying to get people off of their phones. So so so

so talk to us about Noble Mobile.

>> Right. So I've determined that Americans are sad. And I've determined that

are sad. And I've determined that Americans are sad for two big reasons.

There are other reasons, but these are two big ones. Number one, they're not able to save enough money each month.

And number two, they're spending too much time on what Hassan Minhaj calls our rectangles of sadness. uh where uh I joke it's like look it's it's not often

that your neighbor runs up to you and screams in your face but you do get that feeling from your phone kind of regularly that like you you saw someone scream at someone maybe they screamed at you even and you're like oh like there's

like conflict and like negative emotions and then so you start thinking that's going on out there in the real world meanwhile in the real world especially where you guys live like you know the weather is fine and like people are just

walking around like walking their dogs and your neighbor is like another fine human. And so I thought, okay, how can I

human. And so I thought, okay, how can I make progress on these two problems? And

I was inspired by Mark Cuban's cost plus drugs where he buying generic drugs in bulk and then selling them back to the American people at a modest markup. Just

to run this for you guys and you know like successful Silicon Valley folks will get this, but then you don't care.

And you'll see what I mean in just a second. Because you're on the West

second. Because you're on the West Coast, I'm guessing you're both AT&T guys. Just a guess.

guys. Just a guess.

>> Verizon for me. But yeah. Yes, I I was Verizon too.

>> I think to switch to Mobile any day now, >> for 26 years. Oh, yeah. Please. After

this, you're going to want to even more.

Um, so Verizon charged me $140 a month for one line for uh like a decade or so.

So, I was overpaying even more than normal. The average American is spending

normal. The average American is spending 83 a month on their wireless. You guys

are probably spending a bit more than that. You're probably spending a bit

that. You're probably spending a bit like somewhere between >> 105.

Guess 100 bucks or more. Now, the last time you guys went to brought the families to Europe or whatnot, um you got these text messages 10 bucks a day.

>> Yeah. So, if you went away for 10 days, you owed them a hundred bucks. There are

two of you, maybe it was $200. And then

you got home and you still had your native $100 bill. Um so maybe you spent 300, even 400 that month. And you were like, "Well, that's weird. [laughter]

How the heck did my cell phone bill >> cost that much?" Meanwhile, in Europe, instead of spending an average $83 a month, they're spending an average of

$35 a month. Um, and the cost to put you on that foreign carrier cell tower is only about two bucks a day, and they're charging you 10 bucks a day for no

discernable reason. Uh, Verizon paid its

discernable reason. Uh, Verizon paid its shareholders in in dividends 11 billion last year. Uh, AT&T was 7 billion. uh

last year. Uh, AT&T was 7 billion. uh

the delta of $48 per head per month between the US and Europe comes to a hundred billion a year as like a hidden data tax. So when you start digging into

data tax. So when you start digging into okay if I'm going to try and get money back into America's hands at scale like this is actually a very uh direct way to

do it. And so we licensed the data from

do it. And so we licensed the data from T-Mobile and then uh you pay um $50 for unlimited, but

we'll pay you back $20 that month based upon any uh data you use less than 20 gigs that month. So we'll pay you to use your phone less. You doom scroll more, you get paid less at the end of the

month. Uh, and the average Noble user is

month. Uh, and the average Noble user is using 17% less screen time in month two because it turns out we respond to measurements and money and uh, their cell phones bills getting cut in half.

Um, and if you do the math on, you know, again, saving that 50 bucks a month times 12 is 600 times 30 is uh, $18,000, put an interest rate on that, compound

it, save the average American um, tens of thousands of dollars, which would be like a down payment on their retirement, and get us all off our screens and looking at each other, touching grass, etc., etc. Um, so what do you think,

Mark? How would I pitch Noble?

Mark? How would I pitch Noble?

>> Hey, f first of all, as as you know, your old senior mentor as an entrepreneur, I'm going to give you like probably an A minus or could be even an A on that. That's pretty that's a damn

good pitch. As Jake McDalia used to say

good pitch. As Jake McDalia used to say to me that the best lie is the truth.

Like that the most important thing is it's actually all true uh and really powerful. Um, and I I think the I think

powerful. Um, and I I think the I think just as important as the money in people's pockets is anything we can do structurally to get people off of the dopamine machine in your pocket or this

the the rectangle of sadness, which I have not heard before. Um, I I I don't think there's anything in our evolutionary history that prepared us for having all the information all the time and all those dopamine hits, many

of them negative. It's not just about doom scrolling. It's even happy

doom scrolling. It's even happy scrolling is not good for us compared to getting out there and, you know, playing some pickle ball.

>> Wow.

>> I'll take an A minus for my old mentor.

I'll take it. I'll take it. It's cool.

It's cool.

>> You know, it's funny because this morning I was just This is related. I

just woke up thinking, why is it that a lot of content on the internet has a comment box? We're not allowed to go and

comment box? We're not allowed to go and comment on everything we see to the whole world like in real life. It

literally doesn't make sense. Like why

would I go to a YouTube video, an Instagram, like why is there a comment box? It doesn't make sense. Like why

box? It doesn't make sense. Like why

should like some rando be allowed to comment?

>> Especially when the first rule of the internet is never read the comments.

>> Correct. [clears throat] Exactly. So I'm

like why does this exist? And I was just kind of thinking more from cuz who is getting value from it? Because nobody

likes to read those comments. They're

all garbage. Like maybe the people writing the comments feel happy about it. I don't know. Sorry Andrew. Like as

it. I don't know. Sorry Andrew. Like as

somebody who worked on social products for many years, I was just kind of going back to like why did why did we put this in the first place? Maybe in the beginning it was because friends like to write comments and that was cool. But

all of that happens now in your DMs. Anyways, I can take a piece of content and send it to my friends. That's way

better because at least then we can banter about it in our kind of like group chats. But so much of the design

group chats. But so much of the design of the internet is is just weird in like bad ways that don't make us happy right now. I you know so I strongly agree with

now. I you know so I strongly agree with the premise.

>> Well fantastic guys. Um so would love you you guys to join Noble Mobile. Uh

it's good fun growing every day. Um you

see the vision see the mission. I agree

with you Aditia. There are a lot of thing first of all I mean as a political type I definitely should not read the comments [laughter] but but any but I will say that most

every celebrity I know and political figure sometimes does that there's like this constant temptation be like let me see what they're saying and then most of the time you regret it most time like I

should [laughter] >> so uh Andrew uh let me ask you a question so obviously you know you talked about AI displacing jobs and you obviously talked talk about UBI. We've

made a bunch of well not progress but we now have a bunch more a better understanding of what AI actually looks like and we've kind of run some I guess small scalish experiments with UBI. So

maybe like give us like what is your updated take right now on kind of like the impending effect of AI and also how should we be thinking about UBI as a way

to alleviate it in the short or the long run? When I was running for president, I

run? When I was running for president, I tended to hit um bluecollar examples more often. Uh you know, I I would talk

more often. Uh you know, I I would talk about stores closing. I would talk about truck drivers. I would talk about call

truck drivers. I would talk about call center workers, which is sort of, you know, on the border of blue collar, white collar. Uh it turns out that I

white collar. Uh it turns out that I should have gone immediately to white collar, recent college grads, management consultants, law school grads, etc., etc. Like it turns out that that stuff

front-end coders Yeah. Yeah. Coders. I

mean, if I've been running around being like, "Hey, coders, you're effed." Back

in 2018, it would have seemed very far out because at that time, coders were the most in demand. So, my my thinking um in terms of the sequencing has

changed a little bit, but directionally still feel pretty confident that we're heading towards a job killing tsunami uh

for the average American. I mean if you look at the labor force uh the number one category of worker is clerical and administrative which I dare say [laughter] like most people are going to

look at that and say oh like you know we can do a number on a lot of those jobs.

By the way for the curious number two is retail number three is food service and food prep. Number four is trucking and

food prep. Number four is trucking and transportation and number five is uh manufacturing still believe it or not.

So feeling good slashbad about my um predictions on those levels. Uh the the UBI thing was always an oversimplification.

Uh here's what I'm going to present that that will I was sworn never to do this on the campaign trail because my campaign manager said, "Look, it's hard enough to get people on board with the magical Asian man from the future wants

to give everyone money, but when you start talking about a multivaried economy, everyone's head explodes. So

never do it again." I think what we have to do is you have to build an arts and creativity economy, health and wellness economy, and a caring and nurturing um

an education economy and then reward different activities along these dimensions. Uh, and maybe you can't buy

dimensions. Uh, and maybe you can't buy a Porsche on the wellness bucks, but you can live a fine life if all you're doing is like, you know, doing physical therapy on grandma and then like leading

fitness classes and being personal trainer like, you know, like like you can live lives that you're happy about.

Uh, but that was always too complicated an idea for um the political domain. Uh

I I do think that's the only chance we have though because the argument I make is look you got to acknowledge that America sorry humans are going to lose to machines if your measurement is

capital efficiency like if you take that as a given then what the heck do people do and then you think okay um let's try and do more of the things that people want to do and that we need more of that

we can agree on in some way and so you you would need a combination of government and philanthropy to help build those those systems. Uh it

wouldn't be that complicated. I mean,

one of the things that I say to folks is, look, each of uses half a dozen different currencies every day. Um we

don't really think about I'm not even talking about Bitcoin and and crypto and the rest of it. I'm talking about uh your reward points on AMX, uh your uh

frequent flyer miles, your Delhi punch card, your uh you know Yelp status or whatever the hell it is. [laughter]

Like we have like all these categories like what we do need to do is actually make some of them robust enough to give people structure, purpose, fulfillment, community. Um, so I think giving people

community. Um, so I think giving people money is a thing and I'm for it and I, you know, very proud to have mainstreamed universal basic income, but I've always thought that was a

foundation and you still need to build a house. I hope and assume that uh, hey

house. I hope and assume that uh, hey Yang, where's my thousand bucks? Uh,

touches at least on some of this in addition to being a a funny good read which everybody should go by in February drops. Is that right?

drops. Is that right?

>> Yep. Um, February 3rd. Uh the alternate title was hey am I racist or are you Andrew Yang? Uh which I've also been

Andrew Yang? Uh which I've also been asked. Uh [laughter]

asked. Uh [laughter] and uh it's like inside accounts of the last number of years. Say you know if you go just so you know by the way you know when I told a ditch you we were

going to get you for a podcast I think he was hoping that I meant Andrew Ang.

Um but you know [laughter] [gasps] >> Oh no that's that's a good one. Um I

think probably my worst so my biggest fear with AI is that if the job like listen if you lose 15 million jobs in the course of 3 years that's revolution like that is very bad like very bad

things happen to political stability and kind of the continuity of a country if you lose that many jobs without having a credible plan to giving people I would say pathways to both kind of economic pathways but also pathways towards

dignity and status right like most people get a lot of like value from being able to do something of value for themselves, their family, their community. And if you take that away, I

community. And if you take that away, I think it's very hard for people to feel a sense of like worth like you know what to do. So, uh I worry about that a lot.

to do. So, uh I worry about that a lot.

So, I do think that hopefully if anything, if it's a fast takeoff, then I worry a lot. I think if it's a slow takeoff, maybe we have more time to think about this stuff. But we're

heading for a very weird decade ahead.

Yeah, >> totally agree. Very, very concerned. Uh

I I think you're seeing, by the way, the beginnings of this revolution you speak of. Uh you're seeing political violence,

of. Uh you're seeing political violence, you're seeing flare-ups, you're seeing deaths of despair, uh you're seeing assassinations and assassination attempts. So like the uh you know,

attempts. So like the uh you know, anyone who who thinks that that's off the table um isn't paying any attention.

I know I'm such an uplifting guy, right?

It's like, hey, I thought this [laughter] coming back to it like the the optimistic guy. Um, no, but I I really think that through this podcast series, I get the chance, you know, we get the chance to meet a lot of like

really interesting people, but it is rare to find somebody who has such a direct line between, hey, I see things in the world and instead of like commenting on it on X or kind of like complaining about it, I'm actually going

to go and do something about it. So,

this is inspirational. Uh, you know, I try to highlight to my children people who would be interesting for them to think about. I will actually bring up

think about. I will actually bring up your example in one of our family dinners this week and just talk about like cuz a lot of our recurring theme right now for my children like I think that in the age of AI the biggest thing

that we can hopefully impart to our children is a sense of agency which is listen these machines work for you you have the ability to do more things dream up more things so I will talk to them about kind of your career arc and um you

know kind of like what you have done because I think agency is the currency that will be the most important one in in a AI future. So Mark, I don't know if you have any final thoughts or comments.

>> Thank you. Uh thank you. Amazing

discussion, amazing career. We're very

excited for I want to read the book. Uh

going to check out Noble Mobile and really honored to have you on the podcast today.

>> Well, well, thanks guys. I'm actually

coming back to the Bay Area in February for a book event at Manny's that if you go to andrewyang.comvents,

you can see the there. It's uh free as far as I know. Um, I also do write a weekly newsletter at andrewyang.com that I make free because I have many broke

fans. Um, so [laughter] anyone has an

fans. Um, so [laughter] anyone has an interest out there. Um, every week, you know, my

out there. Um, every week, you know, my my final word on this was that uh I I hope people realize like I've taken at least as many L's as W's. Um, I was

asked to be a commencement speaker at Colombia um and I won a student vote and I said, "Thank you guys. is the first vote I've ever won. [laughter]

Um but but so much of it is that uh you know like if you take big enough swings, you get some hits, you get some misses, you get the privilege of continuing to

get at bats. Uh and my attitude is like look, I've been gifted with a bat. Like

I'm going to do what I can with it uh until someone takes me off the field.

[laughter] So, uh, hopefully some people here can relate to aspects of that. Um, hopefully

we'll spend some time together in February and, uh, you know, to do that.

Absolutely. Awesome. Thank you so much for the time and, uh, all right, we'll see you soon. Thank you again, Andrew.

Of >> course. Thanks, guys.

>> course. Thanks, guys.