ISO 19011:2026 and the Shift from Conducting Audits to Designing Them

Few years ago, remote working was a novelty. Something that sparked

novelty. Something that sparked curiosity, debate, and possibly a bit of resistance, and now it's just one of those things that we do. In the ISO

world, this translates to remote audits.

But the biggest shift with those is not that we're conducting them. [music] It's

that we're designing audits with this in mind. from the very first planning

mind. from the very first planning conversation right through [music] to the final audit report. ISO 19,11206

is catching up with what is already happening in practice. [music] And today we're going to explore what that shift means for auditors and their systems everywhere. [music]

everywhere. [music] Welcome to Lead the Standard.

You're [music] listening to Lead the Standard, the podcast where we talk about ISO, systems audits, and leadership in realworld terms, cutting through all that complexity without the

little bits of nuance here and there.

I'm Kelly Taylor, and I am joined by Jackie Stapleton, who, like me, has been elbow deep in the new ISO 19,1 draft,

preparing for its rapidly approaching release. Hi Jackie. Appreciate you

release. Hi Jackie. Appreciate you

putting that down for a moment.

>> Hello. I was just laughing at elbow deep that we have.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Not just ankle deep. Right

up to the elbows with it.

Um but today we're not going to tackle that whole standard. We're going to put it aside for a little bit. Uh, and we're going to focus on that one key change that we found. And we're going to talk

about remote auditing, but not in the way that we usually do because this episode isn't about how to run the remote audit. It's about the thinking

remote audit. It's about the thinking behind how audits are changing and how it's now embedded throughout the 2026 revision. So, you've been working on the

revision. So, you've been working on the course updates for the standard. Um,

I've been working on the course updates the standard, but you in particular notice something that's a little bit easy to miss. I think for some people that remote auditing isn't just a

delivery method anymore. It's actually a design decision um that shows up at every stage of that audit life cycle.

So, did you want to give us a bit of the backstory on how that shift first started to stand out for you?

>> Yeah, I don't know how I have these epiphies, Kelly. Um,

epiphies, Kelly. Um, normally at 2:00 a.m. in the morning when I should be sleeping. Um, but you know actually I think as when I was

writing this article cuz I always refer back to classroom training and you know there used to be this slide and I think we sort of still have remote auditing in

our virtual lead auditor training as well which reminds me we should update that um [laughter] based based on based on you know what

we're going to discuss today because I was thinking that when I do talk about remote

auditing sort of in the past, it was always about doing it like conducting the audit. Like

it's almost like we skipped the before and the after.

>> Yeah.

>> It was like, oh, this is how we do it.

What are ways in which you can conduct a remote audit? And that was that's the

remote audit? And that was that's the discussion that we have. And I thought, well, that's not actually all there is anymore.

>> So, in in the 19,11 standard, it will be 2026. I know it's still in draft, but it

2026. I know it's still in draft, but it will be 2026, we're told. Um,

remote auditing starts from, as you said, Kelly, it's it's the full design.

So yeah, it starts from the audit program all the way through to the audit report and how we communicate that um

the technology that we that we need. So

you know it's not just it's sort of like you know you get your five star rating on your white goods or four three four five star and like that's always based

on the operation of it.

>> Yeah. But if you want to look at like the environmental, the sustainability side of it, you've actually got to look at the full life cycle.

So, you know, the raw materials, the manufacturing, disposal and so on. And I

feel that this has been similar with remote auditing in the past.

>> So, yeah. So, it's all it's embedded in the process from the beginning.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think it's so much more realistic. I think we just it's,

more realistic. I think we just it's, as I said before, it's catching up. The

standard's catching up.

>> Well, and that's that's a good point because, you know, for some of you listening or watching out there, you're probably going, "Well, I'm already doing this. Fantastic. Top of the class."

this. Fantastic. Top of the class."

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. That's that's amazing.

>> [laughter] >> But yeah, it wasn't always like that in the standard. So now it's just, you

the standard. So now it's just, you know, this remote auditing possibility

or opportunities is now embedded in all of those sections. So I'm I really just sort of broke down each of those

sections. So I suppose the life cycle

sections. So I suppose the life cycle >> of the audit and and yeah we'll just be sharing how I see it um embedded within

each of those steps and you know it might just be uh reassuring to you that you're already doing it or there might be oh crap I've really got to you know

go backwards and start planning it more rather than just turning up or just saying you know the day before I'll do this remotely.

>> Yeah. Feel like having a pajama day.

Let's just log in now.

>> Yes, that's right. [laughter]

>> Let's be a little bit more intentional with our planning.

>> Yes. Yes. And I was thinking which order I was going to do this in. I'm going to do something a little bit different. Uh

>> oh.

[laughter] I haven't I haven't This is the first Kelly's hearing about it. Um, in the the article that this podcast is based on,

I'm just going to bring up the graphic, you'll see I've sort of got chevrons and it's sort of it's it's in order because it's design, right?

>> Um, and this is where we decide whether it's remote, hybrid, or on site. And

then all of the like the technical competencies that we need >> but and also remember I said we

traditionally just look it might no it it's traditionally all we think about is conduct okay conduct of the audit not our conduct. So like conduct of the

our conduct. So like conduct of the audit. So, I thought I'd start there

audit. So, I thought I'd start there because we all know what a remote audit looks like and how to conduct one. So,

you know, um your interviews might be structured differently as well. So, um

if you're conducting your audit and you know, as I said, I might not be telling you anything different. You've got to organize your Zoom or your Teams links.

Um so so on on that day you've got to manage what your timetable comes into it. I'm going to work backwards after

it. I'm going to work backwards after this. Um so because you're relying on

this. Um so because you're relying on those digital tools and also you might need to review documentation.

So [clears throat] then you need to request access to their documentation.

However that is. They might give you access to log in to their system. They

might be a little bit old school and email it to you. I still have a client that does that. Um, you might have to screen share as well to to um like when

you're conducting an interview remotely.

So, this is the big part where that use of technology comes into play. So, you

know, you as as an auditor these days, you really do need to understand the basics of different platforms. And honestly,

they're all the same. Like, I know I've had auditors come to me and say, "Oh, well, what if I don't know that the platform they use?" I said, like, "Honestly, have you used this one? It's

just the same." So, you know, it's it's got the same intent and you can't really break anything. I if I haven't broken

break anything. I if I haven't broken anything, you know, you're safe.

[laughter] So, so you know, it is it is a a skill.

I was going to say a new skill that we should have as auditors because we need to adapt to the different systems that our clients use and understand how how

they work together. So we do need that um competence in ICT um is a is a term the uh certification body I contract for

users. So information communication and

users. So information communication and technology. Okay. So

technology. Okay. So

the conduct of the audit we're all quite familiar with this is sort of you know where you know the work is done. This is

the this is the juicy stuff, right? But

if we get to this point, the conduct of the audit and we haven't had any planning prior,

what does that look like? It looks like a mess because you don't know what the link is. Your orderes don't know what

link is. Your orderes don't know what the link is. the your your contact at the at the organization doesn't know what the links are. They don't even what

how how are we actually doing it? Are

they turning up on site? Are they are they, you know, giving me a phone call?

What does this look like? And what

happens if we can't connect? How are we going to share our documents?

>> Yeah. So if you haven't started from the beginning and you just sort of, you know, the day of or the day before you decide, oh no, yeah, this is

this is much easy. I'm just going to do it remotely. As Kelly said, it's a

it remotely. As Kelly said, it's a pajama day. Um, that's not how it

pajama day. Um, that's not how it happens anymore. Okay. So this is why

happens anymore. Okay. So this is why I'm choosing to work backwards.

Okay. So we've con, you know, you've got the the conduct of the audit. Of course,

if we go one step back, we've got the opening meeting, right? So this is traditionally what we refer to as the on-site activities. Okay? Where we're

on-site activities. Okay? Where we're

actually talking to people's and that starts with the opening meeting. All

right? So obviously when you have your opening meeting, this should be where you're actually communicating.

Okay. Yeah. And they should know by this by this time and I'll work continue to work backwards. But this is where you

work backwards. But this is where you actually confirm the approach. Okay.

What what um actually it will happen if you lose connection. So you have sort of what do you call that? Not backup plans.

Contingency plan.

>> Contingency plan. Yep. So that's your contingency plan. And believe me, it has

contingency plan. And believe me, it has happened to me >> to me in last week.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I' I've had a multiple day audit conducted remotely and then get to the closing meeting and

there was no way I could connect. Um, so

my backup plan was I knew who to phone and I had Zoom installed on my phone. So

I had to I had to do it that way. But at

least we knew what had to happen because in the opening meeting we'd had this discussion. Okay. And so the opening

discussion. Okay. And so the opening meeting is a good way to clarify what the tools are that you're using.

Um, and also obviously if the opening meeting is remote, well, this is where it starts. Okay, you're already remote

it starts. Okay, you're already remote and then that goes further backwards into the audit planning.

Okay, so we don't get to the opening meeting without a plan. We don't just make it up on the spot.

It goes back to our audit plan and timetable, right? And um traditionally obviously

right? And um traditionally obviously you still have your same standard audit plan that you would have for on-site

activities but you'd have something in there about the element of of remote auditing. Okay. Um and possibly if it's

auditing. Okay. Um and possibly if it's a separate site you'd have the site name but you need to be clear which part is

being conducted remotely. All right. Um,

so that's your order plan. The timetable

you it would be the same, wouldn't it, Kelly? You'd be clear with that.

Kelly? You'd be clear with that.

>> I was thinking that and then I realized, well, typically we always say that your timetable is flexible because things happen. But I think in the remote sense,

happen. But I think in the remote sense, there's probably a little I I feel it might need to be a little bit more rigid because you're not walking around the site and you might be dealing with

people who are offsite. So we both need to be on Zoom at that same time or teams whatever it is. So it it might be that your timetable is a little bit more

rigid than usual. You would still have to allow for the flexibility but it might it might be a little bit more rigid than than usual.

Yeah, I tend I tend to agree because um an audit I did I think it was last week was a week before I was actually um being reviewed by so

there's a peer review I don't know every two or three years um and the the person conducting the peer review on my how I

conducted the audit on site joined us remotely Um, and when I was first told this several weeks before, I thought, okay, I'm not quite sure how this is going to

work because really the only time I'm sitting still is when I'm doing the opening meeting and having an audit interview with one

of the directors and the closing meeting in a in between, I'm walking around the entire site and

talking to the majority of people. Um,

so that's the core part of the audit.

So, so it was just the opening meeting, the audit interview with one of the directors. So, that was sort of like the

directors. So, that was sort of like the highlevel stuff and then she joined in the closing meeting. So, we had to, and this is the other thing is we had to

continually communicate with her particularly. Yeah. Cuz we're

on site. So I experienced it from the the aspect of an audit essentially. I

was being audited. So yeah, it the the communication had to so they were trying to log in because it had to be the the

client's login while I was texting them saying, "Oh, this is what we're doing.

You know, we're having trouble." Oh,

this is good. We were having trouble with technology. So I was messaging um

with technology. So I was messaging um her to say this is yeah this is what we're doing we will be there shortly etc etc. >> Sorry I don't anyone I don't know if you

can see my facial expressions or not.

There's a lot of things that I'm finding would be really challenging for for you as the auditor and and quite distracting for the audit because firstly they're missing out on

the juicy stuff, those general conversations where you learn all of the things, but you're so distracted by trying to keep your observer or your

peer reviewer updated that you're like that to me feels feels really inaccurate because I know that if you're doing a remote audit of a site, you're probably walking around or having someone walk

around with the camera and say, "Show me to the left. Show me to the right. Okay,

you don't want me to show me that way.

Show me that way." All of those things.

So, yeah, I I find that really interesting that that's how they chose to do that because there are the pros and the cons, which which we've kind of just talked about there in that in your

plannings. There are going to be some

plannings. There are going to be some things that are extremely difficult to do um remotely. Not impossible,

but very difficult. You have to have a lot of trust and familiarity.

>> Challenging.

>> Yeah. And I suppose that's a good point like the peer review is just observation

of my personal behaviors I guess. um and

yeah how I conduct uh certain aspects of the audit. So once we had connection, I

the audit. So once we had connection, I just went about my business as normal and you know, she could just observe as

as needed. But um yeah, I can like you

as needed. But um yeah, I can like you know, obviously they have to get and this is this is true with what we're discussing with just an audit.

Essentially a peer review is an audit. I

was getting audited. Exactly. Um, so you know, it's it's the same it's the same process, but I think what stands out to

me was the communication um while I was on site and they were remote had to be maintained more than if they were

actually with you because they can actually see what's going on. Yeah. So,

yeah, it it was it was interesting. Um,

but it st interestingly enough that wasn't included in the audit plan because it was something that came up afterwards. So it was sort of between

afterwards. So it was sort of between the audit plan and the opening meeting.

I'd already done the audit plan. Um, so

so yeah, it wasn't part of the programming either.

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So that's a good segue to the programming cuz this is right to the beginning now. I've moved backwards. So

beginning now. I've moved backwards. So

I started off with conduct of the audit which is where we all are traditionally it's like and if we talk about a remote audit we go straight

to oh well how do you access things? We

do it remotely. They send us stuff um you know as I said I've walked I've walked around workshops um while while looking through you know their the the

client's mobile phone. So we instantly go to sort of like the the operations part of it. Then we move backwards to the opening meeting which is where we

communicate how we're going to do it and what happens if we lose connection. But how

do we know that at the opening meeting?

We should have already had that in our audit plan and timetable. But how did it end up in our audit plan and timetable?

It was planned and designed in the audit program.

>> Okay. So that goes right back to that first design of the audit program. So

this is where things have changed in ISO 19,1 in the 2026 revision. Okay. So

remote auditing isn't just about doing it remotely. It's about getting right

it remotely. It's about getting right back to the program stage. And this is where you consider

whether remote auditing is part of that audit or it could be I was going to say part of it would be hybrid but it could

be fully remote as well or if there's a risk there well then no you'll go on site. So you know as as

always you consider uh the inclusion of remote if you can still achieve the objectives of the audit. So you go back to the

program that whole stage of what audits are we conducting and when. Of course,

it's based on risk, um, complexity, maturity of the system. And I think that's where I was heading with a comment you made on the peer review. Um,

because I've been an auditor there for 15 years.

Um, no complaints as far as I'm aware.

[laughter] >> Not your face.

Um there is a certain level of yeah understanding in how I operate.

>> Yeah.

>> And I also do other um work for the certification body like help conduct I conduct workshops and everything. So

they do have an idea of how I work. So

the the level of risk was was lowered for the peer reviewer to go look I'll do it remotely because obviously they'd have

to consider risk also. Yes. Colleen

>> did I was going to say did the I know that the client knew you and and the CB knew you but was the peer reviewer familiar with you or was this their first time? So I think you've covered

first time? So I think you've covered >> No. Yeah. No, she's Yeah.

>> No. Yeah. No, she's Yeah.

>> Lower risk. So if it was a new guy off the street, he would it would not make sense.

>> Correct. Correct. And the one that I had previously, the previous peer review, they did come on site and I'd never met that person ever.

So obviously, yeah, if they never met me and didn't have that prior understanding and knowledge, um, you know, I could have completely flipped that day,

though. [laughter]

though. [laughter] >> Whoops. I've accidentally disconnected.

>> Whoops. I've accidentally disconnected.

Sorry, my [laughter] forgot my charger.

>> Yeah, gone off the rails. Funny. Funny.

I forgot half my charger.

>> Oh, that's not funny. That's not

surprising.

>> I took an ass joke. Which part did you forget?

>> Yeah, >> the kettle. The kettle bit.

>> The kettle bit.

>> You know, the kettle bit. It wasn't with it.

>> Yes. That's probably the problem is that you thought you were taking the kettle, >> but that's I say that because that's how they helped me. They got it from the kettle and [laughter] >> anyway,

>> it would have had that sitting on the side. Jackie is going to forget part or

side. Jackie is going to forget part or all of her charger.

>> I either forget stuff there or I leave it there. So, but they take great care

it there. So, but they take great care of it. So

of it. So that's what reminded me when I got to that system maturity and you sort of mentioned it too that that you know

previous knowledge and it it lowers the risk essentially.

>> Okay. The nature of activities being audited you have to consider. So um and that goes into play with my peer review as well. Like obviously, you know, there

as well. Like obviously, you know, there was a workshop with high-risk activities that I was walking around in, but I need to consider that when I'm planning my

audit. I certainly would not conduct a

audit. I certainly would not conduct a complete remote audit for these clients because of the nature of activities they're doing. However, I do uh

they're doing. However, I do uh regularly do a hybrid. Um so, it's much easier particularly um for reertifications.

I do a hybrid. Yes. Kelly, why are you laughing?

>> I'm laughing because I was just going to ask use an example you've got of there's a story that you've told numerous times about um I think it's pool liners that the gentleman's really enthusiastic.

Yeah, you know which story. But as I was thinking about that, I was thinking about how like that's absolutely something that you would need to do on

site. And I had this this image. I love

site. And I had this this image. I love

you mom. But you know when you talk to your parents on like WhatsApp like you do FaceTime your parents and like you have to say I'm looking at the ceiling

that's your ear. I'm not look like he's got this image.

>> I'm looking up your nose.

I just had this image of somebody holding the phone who's fantastic at their job in that in that kind of environment and you're asking them to show you something and then suddenly instead of showing you the control

panel, you are looking at an oil patch on the floor or something. I just had this vision of my, you know, my mom walking around with the phone. I can

give it to my 2-year-old niece and perfectly centered, which is terrifying.

But yeah, you've got to make sure that the person at the other end of that device on your remote audits also has that ICT competency.

That's that's actually yeah a good a good point because you know mainly obviously 19,11 well mainly it only

talks about our competence as as the auditors but yeah in your I guess I'm guessing when you start communicating it

in your audit plan and timetable um that's when obviously you know you'd have any other discussions like remember

in our audit plan template that we use for our training. We've got those other considerations.

Possibly there would be something you'd add there, wouldn't you?

>> Yeah, we I I think >> now that I think of it, >> I think it's something that Absolutely.

We talk about social and religious requirements and I feel like this is absolutely something that needs to be in there. I can't tell you how many times

there. I can't tell you how many times as as an online training organization, we have to coach students through how to

log into Zoom or how to open a Word document or share a screen and and this is an online training environment. So,

they're selecting it because of that.

Um, it's really hard. Like certainly you can put it in your plan, but you really need to be mindful that people feel like

they know a lot more in that ICT space than they do or they are the way around.

So that's something that Yeah, you need to prepare for that. You need to have kind of a >> a backup plan for those unknowns.

Yeah, it's actually a really good point that you raise because obviously >> it happens sometimes [laughter] um

you know at as our students it it is really important that you do you can demonstrate this technology competence

because if you're then going out in the big wide world and you're conducting audits either fully remotely completely

or hybrid, you do need to be able to troubleshoot and figure these things out yourself. So have some basic level. Um,

yourself. So have some basic level. Um,

and this is where it starts like so I try to when I originally wrote this article I tried to sort of embed that

yes remote auditing is part of the full life cycle now but embedded within that full life cycle

is that um competence that technology competence and that's it's more in the um image that's in the article which I'm

sure. Here, Kelly. Here is showing now.

sure. Here, Kelly. Here is showing now.

[laughter] >> That's one for Angus, not for me.

>> I know. I just need to get your attention. Here's here's the graphic.

attention. Here's here's the graphic.

Yeah. [laughter]

>> And and you'll you'll see you'll see um obviously if you're listening you won't have a clue what we're talking about [laughter] but but the graphic will show that the

full life cycle but embedded underneath it I think I've got technology digital competence oh and your professional

judgment as well. Okay. And that starts right here at the beginning with audit programming because when they the audit

program manager puts the full audit program together they need to ensure like even at that level technology capability and auditor

comp um competence because at that point they're already assigning the auditors.

Okay. So they have to consider who's available with the required competency.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm just having a look um around. So there there have been some

around. So there there have been some slight tweaks in within that standard and competence is one of those words that I'm looking for at the moment. So

the definition of that has not changed.

But I do know that there are some adaptations particularly around the program around who is involved and their

competence within that. Um so yeah it's not just about the the um like the

general program itself. does still well it still refers to ICT but I'm just seeing if there is anything specific to the remote side and it

doesn't it doesn't really >> thought there was under competence >> I'm searching that word there's look there's managing the team's confidence

um the selection of the team again that relates to ICT selecting of the team around their yeah

competence the pro the program itself there are some words in there a little bit more about the risks and opportunities and internal external factors

>> um and again within there >> that that still does reference ICT um >> a little bit more about establishment

there was definitely some things in um around the extent of the audit program so availability of information around communication

technologies to support the activities in particular the use of remote audit methods. So there are a couple of

methods. So there are a couple of references in there around the competence of those remote technologies.

Um but yeah >> yeah so normally say for me as a certification auditor um it's a requirement as part of our

onboarding and then continuing um competence uh that that the CB has to ensure we have but obviously you know

you might not be a certification auditor and that's managed by the CB if you're conducting internal audits and you might might manage a team of internal

auditors. You need to ensure that um

auditors. You need to ensure that um that competency is achieved um and maintained as well.

>> Yeah, I found the clause I was looking for and it's not necessarily specific to competence. It's within 5.4.4 for around

competence. It's within 5.4.4 for around the resourcing for the program and there is an additional note that they've added onto the end of an existing term and it

does specify technical resources required to set up a remote audit using technologies that support um remote collaboration. So in you need to have

collaboration. So in you need to have the availability and understanding relating to those technological resources. So it is covered in there in

resources. So it is covered in there in that and again the annex explains that even further. So

even further. So >> yeah I was thinking possibly the annex will be the clue. Um

>> okay >> definitely it's something in addition to Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, okay, I've worked backwards from conduct of the audit, opening meeting, audit planning, right back to

the audit program where we spent a lot more time because this is where it all starts. if it's not part of that audit

starts. if it's not part of that audit program and then when you initiate the audit as part of the audit plan that's where things could sort of fall through

the gap right from the opening meeting and the conduct of the audit. Okay. So

let's pretend we've conducted the audit.

We're going forwards now. And of course the next thing is the closing meeting.

So the closing meeting as usual brings together the outcomes of the audit. of

course we present the findings um based on the evidence that we reviewed remotely and which is you know the different audit um approach or

methodologies. So

methodologies. So just like an on-site closing meeting really the only difference to it to me

is that well we're not sitting in the same room. You still need clear

same room. You still need clear communication.

You still need to know how to how to use the technology. So well-managed

the technology. So well-managed technology. Um and you need to be clear

technology. Um and you need to be clear about the conclusion so that the order understands um

what you're presenting and what evidence is based on. So there is really regardless of how the audit is being

conducted, the closing meeting is still that same process.

Okay. Possibly

I I guess this is this is with anything when yeah when you're conducting something remotely, you're not in the same room. You've got to make them feel

same room. You've got to make them feel comfortable still. Um, you might have

comfortable still. Um, you might have multiple people on the closing meeting as well. So, um, I like to engage

as well. So, um, I like to engage different people. Um, I know Kelly and

different people. Um, I know Kelly and I, particularly when we do our virtual training, we want cameras on so we can

see people's um, faces and, you know, we we pick up body language. I actually met someone last week for a coffee that said like they um when he was an employee

they had that rule as well for their teams meetings and he didn't like it. He

didn't he didn't necessarily think it was it was um necessary for him to always have his camera on. But you know

I explained to him as people trying to to facilitate >> Yeah. We really need to see Yeah. their

>> Yeah. We really need to see Yeah. their

their body language um and whether they're paying attention, which is something Kelly and I have had issues with in the past.

>> Yeah.

>> Um so messages to each other and having little giggles in the background.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Because you know you you as an auditor and I Does this go together?

You want to be engaging.

>> Yes. Well, that's what we try to try to emphasize.

>> That's right.

>> Yeah. That's right. So, you do still need to read the room. So, I think that's what I'm getting at.

>> Yeah.

>> So, um you still need to read the room and engage as many people as as possible. I actually find it more

possible. I actually find it more difficult sometimes if I'm on site doing an audit, there's some because of the way work is these days, there's some people that aren't actually in the

office for the closing meeting or the opening meeting because they that's their day to work from home. and they're

on the conference phone in the middle of the table.

>> I find that difficult >> because >> it's interesting.

>> Yeah. They're not visual.

>> Yeah. So, even um like even us doing this right now um I know that sometimes we you can have laggy internet or whatever and we always say to people

turn your camera off and that will improve the connection and there's something about that that switches someone else switching their camera off switches off something in my brain and I

find it really hard to communicate when I can't see that person. So, um yeah, am I giving them that information? Are they

still there? Am I talking to myself? Are

they understanding what I'm saying? So,

um I had a student last week. She was

fantastic. Um we were doing her opening meeting and her interview and um I said to her um like how do you like I do everyone. How do you feel that that

everyone. How do you feel that that went? And she she was very upfront said

went? And she she was very upfront said I really struggle with this because I can't see your body language. um from

like shoulders down. So

>> yeah, because she couldn't see if I was sitting here. So at the moment I'm

sitting here. So at the moment I'm actually quite conscious of showing you my hands cuz that's both you and I talk with our hands. But often that can be in this um environment can be done under

the table. She couldn't tell if I was

the table. She couldn't tell if I was fiddling, if I was tapping, if I was nervous, if I was anxious just by this part. So she didn't know quite how to

part. So she didn't know quite how to communicate with me. So this is she said she's feels that she might find this difficult for the closing meeting if

she's presenting less than favorable outcomes and how people might perceive that. So it is something to be really

that. So it is something to be really conscious of in that remote environment and just making sure yeah that you can still see everybody um as as you would

in a meeting room. Sometimes, as I said, sometimes it's great if you're on the computer and you can see everyone, but I Yeah, I think what you just described, Dan, having the good old teleconference

phone in the middle of the table >> really is >> it's just completely completely gone.

Yeah, >> yeah, that's interesting because to me, a lot of the body language is your facials >> and your hands. Like I don't know if my

feet my legs are going to tell any more of a story [laughter] unless you're one of those people that does that. But yeah, um you know, look,

does that. But yeah, um you know, look, I did that but no one can see it.

[laughter] >> For the last 45 minutes noticed, so um anyone questioning what we're talking about, it's leg tapping, bouncing, bouncy legs.

>> But um that's a that's a separate topic what you said. she said um about presenting less than favorable um

findings. It's it's not about the less

findings. It's it's not about the less than favorable findings. All findings

are positive. Um I think actually I've got >> Yeah, it it's it's up. It's got nothing.

Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent because it's something I wrote a a blog.

No, not a blog. I will write um a social post about recently. Um because someone asked the question about why like why would I want someone back if they've

raised non-conformances get better.

>> It's not Yeah. It's nothing to do with the non-conformances. It's how you

the non-conformances. It's how you actually present them. You're not you are not the quality police. So that's a

whole other topic, but I had to give my two cents worth just in case. Um, so

to finish this off, of course, the final bit in an audit as part of that full life cycle is is the audit report.

>> What was that?

>> It's the Yeah, you >> Oh, the final. Okay. Okay. Um, I'll take

it. The audit report. Okay. So obviously

it. The audit report. Okay. So obviously

when you've completed the audit, you'll go and finish the audit report just like you would if you were on site. There's

actually nothing different. But why I've included it, it's it's about how you've communicated the different methods

you've used in the audit report. So the

audit report should reflect the methods and obviously the outcomes and the basis for how you came to those conclusions

and it should be very clear which parts of the audit were conducted remotely if if all of it um or if it's hybrid which

parts of it. So you need to be transparent in your audit report about what audit methods and and you know what

the balance was. Um was it 100% um remote or was it just partial? So um

that includes possibly identifying the digital evidence that you reviewed as well. So there's really nothing

well. So there's really nothing different about the audit report except what's included. So it's sort of like

what's included. So it's sort of like topping and tailing. It starts at the audit program where we have the plan and it ends at the audit report where we

confirm what should be in the audit program and plan what we how we executed this.

>> Yeah.

>> Does that make sense?

>> It it does. And I'm glad that you emphasized communicating that that methodology within the report because I feel like the audit report has always

been a remote activity. I don't know too many people who were sitting in the office at the end of the audit saying I'm coming back tomorrow to sit in your office and write this report. So that's

always been a remote activity. So I I do like that the emphasis here was on communicating that those digital elements or those specific remote

activities within the report because yeah we've always been doing remote audit report.

>> So >> that's right that's right but there as as I said yeah the only difference is >> the content what's in the what's in the report and it is just all about

communicating what actually happened.

Yeah. And nothing different.

>> Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right.

You just you don't hide the fact that you did all of it or some of it um uh remotely.

>> Okay.

>> I think that's it. I

>> think so.

>> We've bounced everywhere.

>> So, [snorts] I know. But, you know, it was fun.

>> It made sense. [laughter]

>> So, I suppose Yeah. I'll just summarize what what we've talked about. So, I hope that Kelly and I were able to get across

that while everything is seen together, that life cycle of audits, it it reflects how auditing actually now

operates in practice. And I think Kelly, you mentioned that way at the beginning.

So, you know, you might already be doing this, but the standards are catching up.

Okay. So, this is the key part of all of these additions of remote auditing. It

references ISO 17,012 as well. I believe that's it, which is

as well. I believe that's it, which is sort of embedded within Kelly's double-checking my memory. Um and 17,12,

let's hope it's right, um is really just about remote auditing. So they've got well I guess it's a normative reference

as such. Um that aligns with 19,11.

as such. Um that aligns with 19,11.

Um so is that right, Kelly?

>> Yep. 17,2 conformity assessment guidelines for the use of remote auditing methods in auditing management systems.

>> Yes. Yes. And that's why we chose to

>> Yes. Yes. And that's why we chose to also embed the requirements of 17,012 within our 19,11

um full training um because yet they really work together. So that remote auditing as we we demonstrated even

though I went middle back forwards is embedded across the audit program our planning so our audit plan and timetable

the um conduct of the audit so delivery of the audit um closing meeting don't forget and finally the reporting

but of course embedded through all of those life cycle activities is I want to emphasize this. It should be supported

emphasize this. It should be supported by technology, digital competence and of course as always as auditors our professional

judgment and that allows auditors to design and deliver these effective audits. um because really

audits. um because really this is coming about because business environments are changing.

So, so it's not only the standard isn't only catching up to how we do the audits, it's catching up how businesses

operate these days as well. So, I just had that light bulb at the end. I'm

sorry it took so long to get to that light light bulb. B, as always, before I hand it back to Kelly, um, I'll just close with anyone can follow the

standard. Why don't you be the one to

standard. Why don't you be the one to lead the standard?

Jackie, that is a wrap for another episode of lead the standard. So, today

we have looked at what happens when remote auditing stops being that little bolt-on on the end and becomes part of that design. Um, my takeaway this week

that design. Um, my takeaway this week wasn't really anything new. I think we really kind of emphasized that failing to plan is planning to fail. And

communication really is an important part of the remote auditing.

No differently than a on-site audit, but maybe taking that to the next level. And

one thing that we did note that isn't in the standard that we've found yet, but I'm going to go hunting is around that order competence. that is one of those

order competence. that is one of those risks that we need to be taking into consideration um a little bit more. So

don't default to remote cuz it's easy and pajama day looks like a fun day. You

really still have to consider those risks and and that's one that I don't think we'd all really considered before.

So um if you have liked today's conversation and when we've got you thinking I probably need to get across the new ISO 1911 changes, you are in

luck. Um, don't let that p impending

luck. Um, don't let that p impending release stop you from enrolling in a lead auditor qualification today. Um, we

actually have our ISO 19,11 2018 to 2026 bridging course for lead auditors open for registrations of interest. Now, it

is going to be a short and practical um changes versus non-changes uh course designed to get you up to speed rather quickly. Um, it means you can get

quickly. Um, it means you can get qualified now in the current standard and upgrade to the latest revision when it's released. So, you'll be right

it's released. So, you'll be right across both revisions and you don't have to hold up where you're at now. So,

there'll be notes link in the show notes um for that course. And as Jackie said, once we do have um that standard release, the new release will also

include 19 sorry 17,12 not to be confused with 17,021 which is also referenced. That's a bit of a oops

also referenced. That's a bit of a oops moment. Um, so, [laughter]

moment. Um, so, [laughter] um, if you have liked what we've talked about today, as I said, hit the follow, um, turn on your notifications, leave any comments, share the show. Um,

[music] yeah, we'd love to hear your thoughts as well. But until next time, do take care, stay curious, and keep leading the standard. Bye for [music] now.