Jacob Collier Full Masterclass — Sydney, June 2025

[Applause] Heat up here.

Oh [Applause] >> yeah.

>> Yeah.

[Music] >> Baby >> baby.

Ooh.

[Applause] Ooh. A

Ooh. A >> E >> O E.

Heat.

Heat.

[Music] Come here.

[Music]

[Music]

Hey, Heat. Heat.

Hey, Heat. Heat.

[Music]

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat.

[Music] [Music] [Music]

[Music] Heat.

[Music]

Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat.

[Music]

[Music] [Music]

[Music]

[Music]

[Music] [Music] I sing the dead all night.

[Applause] [Music] Take these broken wings.

Learn to fly.

[Music] All your life [Music] you only waiting

[Music] for this moment to arrive.

[Music] Black birds singing in the day tonight.

Take these suck eyes of leacy all your life.

You only waiting for this moment to be free.

[Music] Black fly [Music] into the light.

Heat.

[Music] Heat.

[Music] [Music]

Oh.

[Music]

Oh. Oh,

Oh. Oh,

[Music]

[Music] Black bird fly.

Like [Music] fly into the light

into the light of the dark.

[Music] Oh, [Music] no.

[Music] [Music] Heat.

[Music] [Applause] [Music] Thank you so much everybody. How you

feeling?

>> Are you feeling quite well?

>> Are you feeling excellent?

>> I I am too. And I think it's because I'm in Sydney, which is one of the most outstanding places in the world to make music. Of course, it goes without

music. Of course, it goes without saying. Um, and it's quite early in the

saying. Um, and it's quite early in the morning for me to be quite honest with you. But I'm so thrilled to be here. You

you. But I'm so thrilled to be here. You

sound absolutely amazing. I often feel when I come to Australia and I I hear audiences that it's like driving a Mercedes or something, you know? It's

like something in the water here. But

this is a whole another level. And I

love all the different sections that we get to play with today. It's just an insane privilege. So, thank you for

insane privilege. So, thank you for having me. Um, my name is Jacob.

having me. Um, my name is Jacob.

Uh, and I come from a small town not far from here called London. I'm going to I'm going to sit here. I'm going to try and make sure I look at everyone, but I think I'll look at these guys for a bit, then I'll come and look at you. Is that

all right? I'm sorry. Okay.

So, yeah, my name is Jacob. That's the

first thing. And I come from London.

It's the second thing. Um, how many of you in this room would call yourself a musician?

Very good. Oh, sorry. I forgot about as well. Me, too. Um, isn't music an

well. Me, too. Um, isn't music an amazing thing?

>> Isn't it really something? What we just experienced, there were no words for. I

didn't tell you what to do. Just did it.

And um, sometimes I ask myself, you know, how is this possible? What is this language at our disposal? What what what is what is it about music that speaks to everybody in the whole world without people needing to necessarily learn how

it works or or the sort of secret science behind it? And the more I thought about this, the more I've realized something, which is that the reason music works is because it's made out of life. All the things that make

life possible are the are the things that power music. Right? If you zoom in with your magnifying glass, you find mathematics, you find physics,

you find history, geography, you find the human body and athleticism and language and spelling and syntax and leadership and empathy and all these

things, friendship, relationship. Uh and

and it all begins with listening first.

And so it's it's no surprise that that it it's such powerful thing. It's like a mirror, you know, when we listen to music or when we make music, which is really quite similar um things to do.

We're engaging with this kind of really sacred thing that no one really understands. But um one of the things

understands. But um one of the things that we might do today, if you're up for it, is just talk a bit about about what happens inside um music because there's so much power in it. And if if I were to

put it in an absolute nutshell, I would say it's all about tension and release. That's the whole thing.

release. That's the whole thing.

Something goes up, something comes down.

Something goes left, something goes right. It's like the the the order of

right. It's like the the the order of the world. When we look around the world

the world. When we look around the world and we we understand things, that's the nature of it. That's the thing that's at play. For example, everybody understands

play. For example, everybody understands the notion of high and low, right? Or

big and small, or wide and narrow, or thick or thin, or rough or smooth. And

um the these are the things that we're working with with music. It's it's kind of extraordinarily simple, but the degrees to which you can scale these like really simple building blocks is

kind of like mind befuddling. Um, so

that's what I spent a lot of my time thinking about. And when I was just a we

thinking about. And when I was just a we lad, I I grew up very small.

And the older I got, the bigger I got.

And and and the bigger my curiosity got.

And I think that any skill at anything begins with a deep curiosity. That's

where it all starts. being so

desperately interested in something that you can't avoid but to explore it properly and deeply and and from both sides of the brain, right? The part

which some people call the left part which likes to put things in orderly lines and systems and things like that.

And then the other side which just wants to wiggle around, you know, and music speaks to both of those so beautifully.

And so I I felt as a child just so like magnanimously interested. I was just

magnanimously interested. I was just like how can I wiggle these molecules in the air and then you you feel something or I feel something as a listener. How

does that even happen? What's going on here? And the truth is we don't really

here? And the truth is we don't really know. So that's the end of the master

know. So that's the end of the master class.

Yeah, we don't really know. But but

there are there are some things that I've I've come to understand um from the from the perspective of of writing music, of listening to music, of playing music, improvising music, and and I think fundamentally also from groups of

people. They've taught me so many things

people. They've taught me so many things about the nature of music and and which parts of it are inherent. And I feel really lucky to get to explore this for a living. It feels like a very worthy

a living. It feels like a very worthy thing to do, especially right now. So,

um, so yeah. Um, I one thing I'll say before we jump into the the deep waters is, um, if anyone has a question, literally anytime, just just raise your hand and I'll I'll do my best to, uh,

answer it because I think it's so important since you're all here early in the morning, um, that I I provide what you want me to provide, not just what I I seek to enforce. So, honestly, and

that goes for you as well. you're just

please contribute whatever you'd like to. Um, but maybe I'll just I'll lay out

to. Um, but maybe I'll just I'll lay out a a sort of semblance that I perceive and then and honestly just like bulldoze me with your with your challenges or your questions at any time. I grew up

with a with with a with a very special room in my life uh as some of you might know. And this is this was a room really

know. And this is this was a room really very small room probably about the size of from the well the end of the piano to like where I'm standing right now squared. It's like really not a big

squared. It's like really not a big portal, but when you're a child, you know, your imagination is it's as important as the real world, if not more important than the real world. You spend

so much time in there. And so this little space became, have you have you read Where the Wild Things Are? You know

about this book? Max goes into his little room and the walls disappear and it just it purs outwards into this infinite forest and he can kind of make the world whatever he wants. And so I love that book as a kid. That's how it

felt for me. I went to this little room and the world became infinite.

And in inside this this space, I I sought to kind of collide particles looking for these these funny amorphous chemical reactions that we get when we listen to music, which are very

mysterious and and very clear. One of

the nicest definitions of creativity that I've ever heard is is that it it's what happens when two things collide together. Makes so much sense. Like if

together. Makes so much sense. Like if

you rewind to the beginning of us as a species and we were hitting two bits of flint together or two bits of wood together to make a spark. Those sparks

were like a little illumination devices and they they made so much possible. So

so for me like that was the the most kind of crude rudimentary sense of creativity is like you know within music there are so many ways you can do this.

Um I've done it with like not just notes and things but genres and sounds and words and all sorts of things. They're

like ways of making alchemy, ways of making connection. And so, um, I would I

making connection. And so, um, I would I would live my life as a child, go out to school and run around and things. And

then I bring the materials, I'd like collect little sticks and twigs of things I really liked and I'd take these materials back to my room and then I'd just like collide them and see what happened, which is really fun. Um,

because we're all constantly like magnetizing things that we like. It's

it's the the most foundational question I think any of us can ever ask, especially if we make things, is what do you like? because it all comes down to

you like? because it all comes down to that. And there's something really like

that. And there's something really like beautiful about liking something which is it takes no effort. You just like it.

It's for me. Thank you. You know, like if I put a spoonful of sugar in your mouth or spoonful of salt, you'd be like, you know, it's like it instantaneous. I think the same can be

instantaneous. I think the same can be true with with language and with music and with people and things, you just think you're for me, you know, and so as a child, I I think I I had a sense of this intuitively. Um but there was a

this intuitively. Um but there was a funny justosition I experienced between this kind of infinite inner world of the room and then the outer world of school and things like that. I've always felt that people are born to wiggle. So one

of my foundational theories that that's that's why we're here to you know then comes this big world um filled with people who actually would much rather that wiggly people were straight lines

because straight line people are just easier to control, easier to predict, um easier to just witness and hold together. And so a lot of the process

together. And so a lot of the process for me at school was about like don't be wiggly, you know, but I wanted to wiggle man.

How many of you are wigglers? Be be

honest. Okay, excellent. About 43 44%.

Um, so you know, I I' I'd say that music, one of the reasons why we need music so much right now and why we've always needed it and it will forever be necessary is because I think music is

one of the most safe ways or spaces for people to wiggle on mass. And what

happens when we wiggle? I I I don't know why I'm using this word so much, but I am. Um, is it's like we get we get

am. Um, is it's like we get we get looser. We get softer. We don't take

looser. We get softer. We don't take ourselves too seriously. And it's so easy, especially as a grown-up, to take yourself seriously. And a lot of things

yourself seriously. And a lot of things confirm that you must very serious. Life

is we're here. You're alive. It's very

serious. But with with music, sometimes the best things are actually the worst.

It's just one of these funny little in inverse languages, right? Um, and you know, for example, since when were you moved by competence? Has that ever happened to you?

I I can't think of a single time I've heard someone say, "Man, that his competence has brought me to tears." It

doesn't happen like that. Things that

bring you to tears are are are imperfections. They're human things. So,

imperfections. They're human things. So,

one of our primary jobs is to always leave room for a little bit of humanity within the kind of rigidity of the things that we learn and things that we study. Now, that's not to say we

study. Now, that's not to say we shouldn't be discerning. And it's also not to say that we shouldn't thoroughly understand the systems within our control and really get a command of the language. I would reinforce this idea

language. I would reinforce this idea that the thing that is going to move people is that combination between kind of fluency and command of language and actually like complete chaos and

imperfection and and just a raw sense of I'm just alive and I have no idea what I'm doing. Um, and so the way that I

I'm doing. Um, and so the way that I have always found myself making music when I'm at my best contains both of those states. Um, sometimes people ask

those states. Um, sometimes people ask me, Jacob, um, when you get into a creative rut, you know, what do you do about that? And, and one of the things I

about that? And, and one of the things I often say is, you know, try and make the worst song in the world and see what happens. Um, it's

absolutely amazing the kinds of results that that you get because what happens is it's like a a liberation from the confines that you're used to and it doesn't get worse necessarily. It might

get scruffier or more abstract, but but actually it's it's a really useful gateway towards being really clear and being really clarified about the language that you're doing. You need to leave that room for that humanity to

shine through. And another thing I'd say

shine through. And another thing I'd say is that, you know, in this day and age, our freedom, well, this has kind of always been true, but I think our freedom is is in our unpredictability.

And and I say this in a world of algorithms and large language models and AI is the whole premise is if if you do the thing I expect you to do then you're within my control. And the truth is you

you can you can be you know disobedient or unpredictable in really subtle ways.

It's about like timing or it's about sound or it's about placement or in huge massive ways like you know what I mean just like put a put a dubstep drop in your folk song or

something. you do whatever you want. But

something. you do whatever you want. But

you know the reality with music and especially right now in turn 25 as a writer, as a singer, as a instrumentalist, as a what, you can do whatever you want.

Literally, there's no limits. The only

limit is what you can imagine. And what

I'm seeing right now um as a human is is an increased reality of that. The better

your question, the more thorough your question, the more complete your answer will be. And questions have always been

will be. And questions have always been more interesting than answers. And in

some ways that the job of an artist is to pose really good questions, not to give really good answers. But I think we're in a time where we we need to ask bigger questions, more high resolution questions, and more challenging

questions. And there are so many ways to

questions. And there are so many ways to ask these questions. We can ask them outright, but we can also we can imply them with our language. We can we can bury them within our decisions and our choices and and in our freedom, in our

wiggledom, you could say. And I think people need it so much in so many different ways. So yeah, that's I I

different ways. So yeah, that's I I guess that's a premise that we can take forth into this into this day. But maybe

I'll speak a bit about music specifically.

Uh what I've what I've come to realize and what I've come to understand. Um I

can have a sip of water and say hi to you. How's it going? That organ by the

you. How's it going? That organ by the way is on. So if you if you turn around and play a note, it will go back. Can

can someone do that?

Yeah. Come on,

[Music] my man. Okay. Music. How does it work?

my man. Okay. Music. How does it work?

Well, it's basically this.

[Music] That's the thing. That's the whole thing. Now, that can be refined. Okay.

thing. Now, that can be refined. Okay.

But the idea is you start in a place say that was where see say we're in the key of E flat major. Can you sing E flat major?

Thank you.

So okay superb. So that's our home for now. You all know inherently the feeling

now. You all know inherently the feeling of being in E flat major. It's like okay I'm home. I'm here. This is my key. So I

I'm home. I'm here. This is my key. So I

I know the the the the the instant localities from E flat major. One would

be a flat major. Can you sing a flat major?

Now sing E flat major again slowly. A flat,

slowly. A flat, E flat, B flat.

Now sing B minor.

That's B minor. Okay, that that was unfair of me. That was that was extremely ambitious.

But the reason it's ambitious is because you know this sound is really far away from this sound. It's kind of like about as far as you can get but completely different. So as a harmonist, as a a

different. So as a harmonist, as a a writer, as a composer and the things, this is the language within my control.

And I've got to say as a child, the thing I most delighted in above all elements of music was predictably enough harmony. Just absolutely obsessed. Any

harmony. Just absolutely obsessed. Any

harmony fiends here?

Yeah. Anyone dislike harmony?

Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. Please

leave. Um, so the whole thing when I talk about this, it's it's about like that that's a very very crude way of saying tension

release, you know, but the whole art form of improvising [Music] is controlled tension and release. And

that's the thing. And you can do it with one note, you can do it with two notes, three notes, you can do it with 12 notes, 88 notes, and more than 88 notes.

Now, just a bit of context, I suppose.

Um, I think the reason why this a major chord feels feels correct to us, feels natural to us, is because there's something called the harmonic series.

Now, who knows about the harmonic series? Anybody here know about this?

series? Anybody here know about this?

Oh, that's like everyone. That's crazy.

Um, so I don't need to go into too much detail, but as you know, you have one in your mouth and it goes, you know, you know about this.

>> Yeah.

Now, I'm not the best throat singer, but but I have a mouth and what you hear in my mouth.

got all these little overtones. The

first five overtones in the world are the are these.

So that is in every note inherently major chord. It's part of nature. So of

major chord. It's part of nature. So of

course when we when we sing in cathedrals or big spaces or whatever and we go a we're actually hearing that's what we're hearing. It's like oh

okay feels natural. Um minor chords don't exist in nature. Crazy isn't it?

It's just that's not real. But they they exist when you flip a major chord upside down. That that's a minor chord. Have

down. That that's a minor chord. Have

you ever realized that? So this is E flat major. And I flip this chord like

flat major. And I flip this chord like this.

That's the same relationships. Major

third, perfect fifth. So this is the first time we encounter a minor chord in nature really is as a as an as a as a an inversion of a major chord, a flip, a

mirror image. So the way I think about

mirror image. So the way I think about major and minor is actually more like a spectrum than than there's a scale. You

know, when when I was growing up, I think I I heard a lot of people talk about major. It's just like that's

about major. It's just like that's major. It's locked into the major scale.

major. It's locked into the major scale.

And like the more major scale you play, the more major it is. It's like not really. Um this is major to me.

really. Um this is major to me.

That's very very major. It's like the majorest it's possible to be. And then

this is minor.

Yeah.

fifths and fourths. Fifths are major and fourths are fifths upside down as you know and they're minor. Think about it. This

is C minor. There's the minor third.

I've just gone up in fourths. This is C major. There's the major third. And

major. There's the major third. And

amazing things can happen when you embrace fifths and fourths as a harmonic basis of language. So, for example, if I play C minor for long enough, I get to the major third. That's the

major third. C minor,

right? And if I play C major for long enough, I get to the minor third. Right? So

everything wraps around. There's a

beautiful visual for this called the circle of fifths that some of you might be familiar with. But the idea is that uh bristling hatred the the idea is that basically once if

you go in one direction, you always end up where you started, which is the beautiful cyclical nature of harmony.

And so I think the idea that fifths create this levity, this upwards, this brightness, and then fourths are like the upside down fifths, and they create the darkness and the tension is a really profound idea for us musicians because

it changes the way that we color in chords. How many of you would call

chords. How many of you would call yourself a jazz musician?

Sweet. Yeah. So jazz musicians often think quite modily about music, about improvisation. So you think about oh

improvisation. So you think about oh it's the idea of like Dorian you know um or Lydian right or what whatever you want to do. So I I I when I learned the

modes I I recognized a thing. It it was my opinion. It wasn't really a thing.

my opinion. It wasn't really a thing.

It's my opinion which is that Lydian is limited and it's worth breaking like most things. And so Lydian goes like

most things. And so Lydian goes like this.

Am I right?

Yeah.

So, so then I came up with this idea.

Super Lydian. What if I go ah that's cool, right? Beautiful bright

sound. But I thought why stop there? You

can go forever. So you can do super hyper ultra mega meta Lydian. So I I came up with this sound [Music]

right.

That's it. Wild. So, so then when I think about cause, I think about I'm playing a song. Someone give me a song.

>> Let it be.

[Music] If I want to make my chords [Music] brighter, then I can pull these notes

from the circle of fifths or from the upper structures or the lower structures of like nature, the harmonic series and and I can color in the song in that way.

Uh, how can we do this? So it's like when I find myself in times of trouble,

Mother Mary comes to me speaking words of wisdom. Let it be.

[Music] And the world darkness, she is standing right

in front of me.

speak your words of wisdom.

Let it be.

So, what I'm doing is Thank you.

What I'm It's very It's very kind of you. Um,

what I'm doing is I'm I'm I'm pulling and pushing and controlling the the direction of travel of these notes and and recognizing that that my pallet is not limited to scales alone. It's

limited to to the spectrum of music.

It's like a you can be anywhere on the spectrum. It's so broad. You know, we

spectrum. It's so broad. You know, we were talking about those localities with E flat major earlier on. The idea of you have a chord four, which is F.

And you could say it's called chord four, but really it's just it's a feeling that we know about. You know

about this feeling. Everyone knows this feeling 41. Oh, gorgeous. And everyone

feeling 41. Oh, gorgeous. And everyone

knows the feeling of 51, right? Especially in classical

right? Especially in classical musicians.

It's it's a feeling we understand. And

we all understand the feeling of four minor. Oh, beautiful. Devastating in

minor. Oh, beautiful. Devastating in

fact.

And so there's this thing in classical music that you probably know about which is called a cadence. You have what's called a perfect cadence and a plagal cadence. And a perfect cadence is 51

cadence. And a perfect cadence is 51 and a plagal cadence is 41.

And so in a lot of songwriters like James Taylor and Journey Mitchell, also a lot of gospel music, you hear a lot of 41.

And in classical music, you have a lot of 51, but you also have what's called a 251, which goes and you have what's called a

36251, which goes in jazz, right? Um,

but you have the same thing the on the other side of the circle of fits as well. So you could have like

well. So you could have like Right. That's a plagal version of a

Right. That's a plagal version of a 36251, but it's the other direction. And

I love it so much. It's such a different vibe.

So you you're you're arriving at C, but you start on A flat. Ah, it's so great.

Beautiful. Keith Jarrett does this a lot. One of my favorite piano players in

lot. One of my favorite piano players in the world. And the idea is that you can

the world. And the idea is that you can yeah you can control not just the notes in your chords which is the first aspect but also the way in which you arrive in a key. So if I go uh well let's go to D

a key. So if I go uh well let's go to D flat on board see when I find myself in timeouble mother Mary comes to me

to me I could go comes to me speak it or I could go comes to me speak it or I could go comes to me

speaking to me speak it isn't that colorful option just a minor chord four. And so don't

don't sleep on plagal cadences, man. And

not just plagal, but minor plagal. I'm

serious because to link it back to the original thing, it's it's about gravity.

It's about gravity towards a key center and on on on either side. Um and there's there's this principle that I really got like excited about when I first heard it, which is called negative harmony.

And um I was about 19 years old and one of my favorite teachers, a man named Barack Schmall, he he was like, "Hey man, have you heard about negative harmony yet?" And I was like, "What do

harmony yet?" And I was like, "What do you mean negative harmony?" And

basically what he was describing was was the thing I'm I'm talking about, which is the idea that you can flip any point of departure and arrival about the axis of the circular fifths and convert anything perfect into plagal. You can

like plagalize, which is different from plagiarize um your your harmony. And so, for example, if you do this in the key of C, um, you you you technically rotate.

There's a number of different axes and ways you can rotate chords. And this is a very theoretical exercise. This is not something I think about when I'm on stage or writing music, but it's a really really fun place to discover

chords. You flip around the axis of

chords. You flip around the axis of these two notes. And so a chord like G7, if you flip all those notes, then D

becomes F, F becomes D, G becomes C, and B becomes a flat, which gives you this chord, right? Literally the plagalized minor

right? Literally the plagalized minor version. Everything that's perfect

version. Everything that's perfect becomes plagal, and everything that's major becomes minor. It's the harmonic series flipped on its head. And and

that's the thing. Uh, Mother Mary comes to me or Mother Mary comes to me.

And I think, why does it work? Because

actually the gravity is the same with both chords because of the way it's rotated. The the the uh the B that wants

rotated. The the the uh the B that wants to rise is the A flat that wants to sink. Isn't that so neat? Isn't that the

sink. Isn't that so neat? Isn't that the neatest thing ever? And so some of you might be thinking this is so boring.

What do I have to talk about this? And

the reality is we don't have to talk about this. But the more ways you have

about this. But the more ways you have of expanding your pallet as a storyteller, as a painter, as a composer, improviser, musician in all these different ways, the the more command you have when you go out there

and wiggle, right? You have at your disposal the emotional mechanisms, the the understanding of a language to say, "I know how to make you feel like that."

Whoa, it's crazy. I know how to make you feel like this.

I know how to make you feel like that or [Music] that. One of my favorite chords ever.

that. One of my favorite chords ever.

What's the feeling of this chord? Well,

it's it's arrived partly, right? Kind

of. It's kind of home.

We're getting there. We can see home in the distance, but we're not fully there.

We're not here.

Right. We're just perching for a moment and I might we might move away but we're not I love it because it feels like my life, you know. I know this feeling. I

understand the feeling. I've lived this, you know.

And then you can collage it with other things that you know about like I know about this feeling too.

What's this feeling? Well, this is a foundational part of it. There's tension

and there's real beauty because of the fifths. Fifth is so clear and powerful

fifths. Fifth is so clear and powerful always.

And then inters like this. You go. It's

like a little twist. Twist of the knife, right?

And then perching again, right? Twisting

it.

Perching it.

I know how that feels, too. That's

that's that's those are weird days, you know, but as a as a harmonist, as a as a performer, harmony is one of the in my mind one of the main ways we have to

command the experience of the of the audience. Um, and I think it's one of

audience. Um, and I think it's one of the reasons why I I so loved arranging music as a child. I take a song that everyone knows like like Let It Be or others and I say, "Okay, I can take this

song into into a different place. I can

I can transform the feeling of this melody which you all know is the melody that's clear but the harmony I get to command and I get to say okay we're going to we're going to go here now we're going to go here or whatever and

when I was about 18 19 years old I started to pursue this irresponsibly to the point where I I removed the idea that there were even 12 notes there's a fun exercise for this that some of you might know it's a microonal exercise and

it goes like thisa [Music]

Da

[Music]

no, etc. I used to love this game so much. It's so fun because here's my idea

much. It's so fun because here's my idea for a good time. Um cuz here's here's the reality. There's no foundational

the reality. There's no foundational reason why it needs to be 12 notes. You

could divide an octave, which is foundational because of the harmonic series, into any number you want. I've

tried. Um, and 12 makes a lot of sense for certain reasons because fifths and fourths sound really good, which as we learned earlier is super important. But

the reality is when you get into really complex harmony, you can slice between notes. you can get into the notes

notes. you can get into the notes between the notes and and and in these factions hide all sorts of amazing like emotional devices that like really confounding. Um, one of my favorite

confounding. Um, one of my favorite things I I ever did with an audience is just a slight diversion and speaking of gliding notes. Um, was the last time I

gliding notes. Um, was the last time I played a show here in Sydney, um, I said to the audience, we we'll do it again now because it's super fun. So, I said to the audience, "Sing a D major chord."

Yeah.

Then I said, "Now sing the note that's furthest away from the note that you just sang."

just sang." >> Yeah.

Why does that sound good? That's not

It's not part of the plan. And then I said, "I'm going to stand here and I'm going to walk here. By the time I get to here, you have to be on the on your original on on your D major note, but you have to start on your chaotic note.

You have to glide really slowly and really thoroughly." Okay, ready? So

really thoroughly." Okay, ready? So

chaotic note [Music] [Music]

sing major again.

>> Sing it loudly.

>> Okay. Remember that note. Sing it again.

>> Okay. Now sing the other note.

[Music] Yeah.

Great. I love that so much. Um, and it was a complete experiment, but I loved it so much that I recorded actually that audience at the Enore Theater. Does

anybody have that show?

>> Yeah. Very cool. And I I recorded that and I and it opens Jesse Volume 4, which is this album I I recently made. Um and

yeah, I I think there's something intuitive about cross cross terrain is is what I what I tend to call this.

Notes that go between the other notes. I

sometimes you can modulate to those keys even and that I call that cross terrain modulation. I've done that a couple of

modulation. I've done that a couple of times where you you modulate from a key that does indeed exist in the textbooks to keys that just simply don't. Um, and

you can do it in really interesting ways. And we won't go super deep into

ways. And we won't go super deep into this because I'll literally be here for ever. But the idea is you can harness

ever. But the idea is you can harness some of the harmonic series intervals which don't exist on the piano and you can swing from those. You can pivot from

those into other keys. So for example, if I sing a C and I go, [Music] you may notice the sound of tune and that's because the the the seventh

harmonic in my mouth is 31 cents flat and a cent is there are 100 cents in every semmit tone, right? It goes

etc. Um, and so that's that's so sharp. If you're

talking about just intonation, talking about justly tuned sevens. So the

question I posed was, what happens if you if you play that harmonic series chord and then you take that you take that note and you swing into that key. Whoa, crazy. And your ear

that key. Whoa, crazy. And your ear doesn't even notice. you were just like, "Of course." But it's it's wild. So fun.

"Of course." But it's it's wild. So fun.

Um I had an arrangement of a of a song called In the Bleak Midwinter once where I did this and um yeah, I think the third verse is in is an E. What can I

give him as I am if etc. And then the final verse is in

G half sharp. And and I got there by swinging using harmonic ratios is it sounds nerdy than it is. It's just like it feels very normal. Of course you

would do that. Um please explore this.

Like I'm I'm genuinely serious. In a

micro tonal revolution that we're seeing ourselves in, I would I would highly recommend this. But all to the end of to

recommend this. But all to the end of to sort of sum up this point, all to the end of of a feeling that you can create.

You get to be an illustrator of feeling.

You get to control that tension. You get

to control that release. And And even if I go, [Music] you felt the tension.

>> That's the kind of control that I love to have. Um, not just in terms of tuning

to have. Um, not just in terms of tuning or harmony, but in terms of everything.

Obviously, we could talk forever about the whole of music, but harmony does feel like a particularly sound and interesting one to to to talk about because I I do think it's inherent. Um,

and I think that the way that some of the audience choir kind of experiments of mine have worked is because because it's inherent and I think it's inherent because of the harmonic series and because all of us who have ever heard

music and and understood music as a listener, which is the first place we learn anything, we we understand those relationships and those those those uh those methods of navigation quite

intuitively. So, it bypasses our defense

intuitively. So, it bypasses our defense mechanisms and we just feel. So don't

underestimate your power to to make these little choices that that provide tension or provide spice or flavor or whatever it is in the things that you're making. And I think that if I hadn't

making. And I think that if I hadn't gone to the absolute edge of my obedience as a harmonist as a child or like the the the reasonable cause, like

I really tried to break everything.

Perfect timing.

Um, but I did and and and the results were often really strange, but but definitely explore that. Definitely

explore that that that feeling um of of of going between of of digging into the thing. Now, some of you might think,

thing. Now, some of you might think, well, Jacob, I'm not really a harmonist.

I'm I'm more of a fraist or I'm I'm just a mere violist or whatever. Um, and and not the violist of Mia by any means.

Who's a violist?

No one. Thank you for being here. That

is fantastic. Um, yeah. So, some people who play instruments that have one melody, monophonic instruments, often are a little bit allergic to the idea of thinking about chords because it's not

necessarily as much as I would like part of the training when you learn to be musician is it's not just what note are you playing or how you playing it or is it forte or piano or whatever. It's

what's the context that you're in. You

know, if I say sing a G and you're this G, that's a very different G from being this G or this G or that G. You know, so

many G's to beat. Geez Louise. So um

yeah, as a as a melodist, I think it's your responsibility in some ways to understand harmony and where you sit because the control you have changes the whole narrative of the thing. Um I think this is especially true for singers

because when you sing a note, you really are a note that you you become that note in a very particular way. And obviously

every instrument is an extension of the voice. Um but one of the things I

voice. Um but one of the things I learned most from doing ac capella arrangements. I've always been obsessed

arrangements. I've always been obsessed with the human voice, but one of the things I really learned was was how much control you have as one voice over the overarching pallet of the thing. And I

I've done vocal arrangements that are kind of very just very layered, very dense and layered, you know, like 80 80 voices, 80 of my own voice on top of itself. And what you learn from doing

itself. And what you learn from doing things like that, as much as I have, is how much difference it makes if if if you go, for example, say I'm recording

Say I'm recording that as a as a vocalist. If I go

vocalist. If I go like 80 times, it will just sound like, you know, but if I go, you know, again and again, it really is

cool. It layers up in such a beautiful

cool. It layers up in such a beautiful way and it layers well because of the imperfections again because of the the parts that aren't the same. Um, unison

is not sexy sometimes. You can quote me on that. Um, especially when you're when

on that. Um, especially when you're when you're overdubbing your own your own voice because the more kind of wiggly imperfections of the of the parts, the more it feels like D'Angelo, you know, when he was recording Voodoo and

everything was on tape and he did all those overdubs on the route. Who's a

D'Angelo fan here? Yeah. Sick. Yeah.

Um, yeah. D'Angelo was one of the first people I ever heard to to really layer his own voice on top of itself in in in wiggly random like soulful ways. Bobby

McFaren was another. But um yeah, the difference between going and is huge in that context because when you layer that up, it's like completely changes the color of your painting, you

know or or you know, a lot of the time when I record a voice in an arrangement, I'll go this is the mic I'm recording. I'll

go like that.

And and the reason is because I don't want to hear the note appear. I just

want to feel the note being there. I go,

you know, um or sometimes I do or whatever it is.

You can scatter things around, but the the the reality is the control you have as a singer, but really as to say all instrumentalists is is so so so immense.

And a lot of the choices you make are notable. You can't write them out on

notable. You can't write them out on sheet paper and say, "Here you go, sing this." Because how how am I really going

this." Because how how am I really going to notate the difference between and you know, I could say like sing breathly, but then people go, you know, so it's like such precise things, but I

learned so much from recording alone in in that in that little room of mine um about the power of the these nuances and these choices. And obviously, I could go

these choices. And obviously, I could go on and on and on and on, but but it matters. It matters to have that kind of command and control question.

>> Sorry, whilst we're on this topic, I've been really eager to ask um when you're arranging vocal harmonies, how much of it do you allow like a river and just follow like a melody and then stack

melodies that you enjoy and how much of it Oh, sorry. I just

>> It's all good.

>> Sorry. I just had the audacity to start.

>> Totally fine. Don't worry.

>> I've just been so eager to ask you this question that as soon as we landed on this topic, I was like, "This is my chance."

chance." >> Brilliant.

>> Um, yeah.

>> Yeah. When you're stacking vocal harmonies and arranging crazy stuff like Bridge Over Troubled Water, like are you coming up with a melody or a harmony line that feels intuitive and nice and

then you're like, "Oo, I could do this on top. I can do this on top." And how

on top. I can do this on top." And how much of it are you like marking like a landmark of I want to arrive here on this chord? How much of it is like as

this chord? How much of it is like as approached by feeling and how much of it is chords? I don't know if you get that

is chords? I don't know if you get that question a lot.

>> Absolutely. Yeah. No, it's a really good question and actually I haven't really been asked that so that's lovely to get to answer it. Um, audacity forgiven. I

had the audacity to I had the audacity to eat a banana while you were asking that question. Um, it it's a

that question. Um, it it's a combination. Honestly, I've learned this

combination. Honestly, I've learned this over the years. I at first with vocal arranging, I I did used to sort of ordain everything. I used to plan

ordain everything. I used to plan everything out. I even wrote the

everything out. I even wrote the arrangements out when I was like 17 18.

I write them in Selius, you know. Um, and and now uh nowadays I

you know. Um, and and now uh nowadays I I have more of a hybrid approach. Um, I

think if there are foundational arrival points, I tend to anchor those in like bases, but I don't necessarily plan how I'm going to get to the place. So, the

first thing I do is I'll I'll like a very vague sketch like, okay, kind of want to start here. I kind of want to end here. Maybe we call to go here,

end here. Maybe we call to go here, here, here, here. Okay, cool. Level one,

done. Level two is to go in one level deeper on that like resolution. It's

almost like an 8-bit computer becomes 16, 32, 64. It's like you go piece by piece. And once I've gone through maybe

piece. And once I've gone through maybe a couple of layers of that, so like basic arrival points is kind of kind of well, I could maybe do this. Um, then I I start recording and I know now enough

about that process and I've done it enough times to know that as I'm recording, I'm going to have better ideas than I did in the planning process, you know? So I'll sing and I'll say, "Oh, actually no, there's there's there's a note that's missing, you

know." So in bridge, for example, um,

know." So in bridge, for example, um, yeah.

Say bye. I knew you wanted to open out from one note.

Come to shine.

That was an arrival point I put in. All

the dreams are all see how they shine.

And I didn't know how I was going to get back to a flat major from there.

That I was singing. And I thought I'll just move this part up a little bit and then I'll know. So it happens like that a little

know. So it happens like that a little bit. Um and you know sometimes for

bit. Um and you know sometimes for example oh if you need a friend >> right that even even that chord I might I might think okay I'll kind of do this

chord but then as I go through I realize that I could sing that notes missing on Maybe this singer, you know, and I usually usually, if I'm

honest, I go like one or two steps over the line of density and then I'll be like, I don't actually need this and this and this, but I always go to the fullest extent of the thing I imagine just to check in case it's better or not.

>> Yeah.

>> Like are you singing multiple notes like a phrase and then like layering phrases or do you feel like you're like layering one note at a time?

Sorry, >> it's totally fine. Um, yeah. No, I'm so sorry.

>> I I I heard the question. It's fine. Um,

>> so yeah, it's it's it's a process, I think, of little little sections that add up to big ones. Um,

>> I tend to record a version of the melody to to tide me over. And then as I go through each section, I'll I'll I'll color bits in. Um, I'll usually start with the lower voices because then I

have the sort of like counterpoint thing strong. And as Bark knows, new still

strong. And as Bark knows, new still knows, um, this is if this motion is strong, you're kind of okay. So, it's

like I'll I'll have the melody there and then I'll do a little bit of bass. It

honestly depends. Sometimes I'll be like, "Okay, I'll do this whole section and I'll layer it up." And sometimes it's like I just want this one chord to sound really good or whatever. It's

really scruffy. Like the I have no real organization about my process. There's

no color coding. There's no labeling.

It's just like, you know, it's really really chaotic. Um, but what happens is

really chaotic. Um, but what happens is this kind of painting emerges that you you you get to refine all sorts of things and and you know sometimes you record it and you like I think the notes are there but it just doesn't feel good

yet. And that's when I go in and and

yet. And that's when I go in and and replace my which I sang in as a experiment with and I layer that up and it becomes like threedimensional. Um, so there are lots

threedimensional. Um, so there are lots of different methods of the process that matter and one of them is sound and tonality of breath and all things and that's separate from from the notation part, but I'll usually have a melody and if there's if there's sketching

beforehand, I'll I'll just use the like logic electric piano, classic electric piano is what it's called. Um, and I'll just like sketch sketch the things in ish and then and then fill them out one

by one. But it's it's it's quite a pre

by one. But it's it's it's quite a pre quite a non non-ordained process overall. Um, the first arrangement I

overall. Um, the first arrangement I ever did that where there was no plan for whatever was an arrangement was a song called You and I, which is a Stevie Wonder song. And that was just like I

Wonder song. And that was just like I just sang a note with no plan. Sang no

plan. I just went got to the end of the arrangement and I just thought, okay, it's done. And and that taught me a lot

it's done. And and that taught me a lot actually. I haven't really done that

actually. I haven't really done that since so much, but that was just like what if I don't plan anything like what what's going to happen? And I Yeah.

Yeah. And it ended up being quite an education for me. One more question then we'll move on. Yeah.

>> I don't know if I have the audacity, but >> it would appear that you do.

>> Yeah. Um I was wondering about you briefly mentioned it but artificial intelligence >> sorry >> yes

>> sorry thank you uh you briefly mentioned it but artificial intelligence are you so I'm a bit fearful as a songwriter about it in the creative process do you think it's detrimental or does it have

uses that you know of or >> it's such an important question um I guess I'll start by saying my personal intuition with anything tech and this has been since I was really small has

been embrace it and mess around with it and try and break it and then it will show you itself. So like I got a little Casio keyboard when I was five with 100 rhythms, 200 sounds and I would go through,

you know, all that stuff. I loved it and and I didn't take it that seriously. I

didn't think it was a real drum kit, but I knew that I could learn some stuff from it. So I would wiggle around and

from it. So I would wiggle around and try and do my best and stuff. Um, and as I grew up and I got older, kind of more and more you could say like high resolution tools have existed and and

you know logic for example and and I built instruments like the harmonizer which is one such thing as this. AI is

kind of a different family of beings.

It's a huge brain um which is an order of magic besides these other things. But

I think I have a similar instinct which is like big brain what what's it going to do? So I spent quite a lot of time

to do? So I spent quite a lot of time trying to trying to bully it into being interesting because by nature AI must be mediocre because it's trained into oblivion to obey every command and

obviously no creative source is ever fully obedient as I kind of said before.

So to me it reinforces the necessity for for human perspective and human toolkit and human enunciation of request and the human is the is the questioner um in in

in the equation rather than the answerer. Um, I don't think I'm not

answerer. Um, I don't think I'm not worried as a as a songwriter um about my job being taken away, but I do think we need to be responsible with it. Um, I

think we need to try and be a part of its progression rather than sitting outside of it. Maybe that's one thing I'd say. Um, I think the fear is

I'd say. Um, I think the fear is completely logical and makes a lot of sense and it is absolutely insane. Like

every day there's a new thing that's just serious what you know. But but the the funny question that it poses artists is well well if if if spec if spectacular becomes ordinary if anyone

can render something spectacular wow beautiful then what like what's after spectacular like there's more than that it's more it's like it's like the thing with competence it's like AI is so

competent it's like nauseiating so so so what else what else is there to do there's so much else to say um and and human beings are the only ones I think who are going to see value in that in those kinds of imperfections and

audiences feel them immed immediately.

It's like there's no no resistance. Of

course, you're a human. I relate to you.

I trust you. The idea of trusting. Um

can we generate these songs and ideas using AI with the help of AI? Um I think in part there there are ways to wake our minds up to interesting things that we wouldn't have imagined. Um if our

questions are good and also I think AI is fatally uninteresting in a lot of creative ways. Um and so what at least

creative ways. Um and so what at least for now. So, you know, I I would say,

for now. So, you know, I I would say, yeah, don't don't lose hope because AI is way too proficient and infinite to be relevant or interesting to people.

People have limits and that's why there that's why we'll need them forever because if if we're talking about relating to people, then people people need limited people. We need people with

edges and like weird waggly imperfections to to believe in. And and

I don't I just don't think music's about competence. I think it's about other

competence. I think it's about other things. I'm I'm pretty open-minded about

things. I'm I'm pretty open-minded about it all. I'm I I don't see a reason not

it all. I'm I I don't see a reason not to be interested. Um and kind of as I said before, I think any real perspective or skill within a particular area comes from curiosity. So our job,

our our mandate is to be curious. We

must be interested. We must wiggle around and see. We must ask challenging questions to the people who are making the AI if we can and and to the AI itself. And we'll take we'll harvest the

itself. And we'll take we'll harvest the stuff that is wiggly enough for us to relate to and then we will persevere with those things and we will always need each other.

>> Great.

>> Yeah. Cool. No problemmo. I need to go pee. Speak amongst yourselves. I'll be

pee. Speak amongst yourselves. I'll be

back in 1 minute.

Thank you.

Ah, that was a good pee.

Um, we don't have a huge amount of time remaining and I'm actually inclined to answer some more questions. If people

have questions, I'd love to hear them.

I'm definitely going to take one from the back. Yes.

the back. Yes.

>> Yes, you.

Wait, wait, hold that thought. Hold that

thought.

>> Can you hear me?

>> Yes, I can hear you fine.

>> I find that as a songwriter, I struggle with having too many ideas, and I think that you can definitely probably relate to that. How do you, I guess, not use

to that. How do you, I guess, not use all of your ideas in one piece? And how

do you know when a piece is finished?

>> I've never experienced that.

>> It's funny. I I said once, okay, I'm going to face these guys. I'm sorry

guys. Um I said once in an interview I I uh oh I suffer from um creative infinity syndrome. And now if you go on Google

syndrome. And now if you go on Google and you type my name it will be like what condition? It's a recommended

what condition? It's a recommended question. What condition? What condition

question. What condition? What condition

does J Collier suffer from? And it says creative syn. So I've I've been doing a

creative syn. So I've I've been doing a few interviews in the last few days here in Sydney to promote the shows at the end of the year and people literally ask me so talk to me about about your uh your your your your suffering you know.

Tell tell me about this. Well, tell me about this condition and how did it come about? Is it contagious? You know,

about? Is it contagious? You know,

things like this. Um, and uh, but the reality is it's a term I coined for this feeling I really experienced strongly as a child, which was of looking into the horizon of a creative idea and seeing no limits, which actually is not

necessarily a good feeling because it's like nothing's holding you together. You

think, oh, I could just fall in any direction, you know. So I think over the years I've sought out successful or effective containers for myself and I know I'm a human so I'm going to

continuously generate ideas against whatever is presented to me with the language that I have but my main job is is not to focus on the ideas it's to focus on the containers you know so

Jesse as a four album conglomerate was one of those containers to me and it was it was a way of sorting ideas into sonic categories it was like okay if it's if it's big orchestral colossal it's volume one wide if it's if it's acoustic and

and miniature, it's volume two. If it's

more electronic and strange, it's volume three. And volume four became about the

three. And volume four became about the human voice. But these were ways of me

human voice. But these were ways of me holding my ideas together. Um it can be a hard thing. Like I really I really do deeply honestly relate to to what you're saying. Um, and I think your job is to

saying. Um, and I think your job is to learn what like in what creative environments do you feel the most filled and you feel the most held together?

Because for me, the way I think about it is this. There's so much energy flowing

is this. There's so much energy flowing all the time. And my energy is so kind of apparent that I can literally just like do this all the time. So my job is to sort of hold it. If I can just like

make a container for it like this, then all the answers are in there. And so

that's the best thing I could do for myself is learn ways of holding my energy together, which is a really different that's not a musical question.

It's it's about life. It's about being a person. And it's about

person. And it's about your edges. And it's about your your

your edges. And it's about your your energy. It's just it's just a different

energy. It's just it's just a different vibe. So my personal solutions come more

vibe. So my personal solutions come more from that area of interest, I think, than like a musical one. Um musically

speaking, I've tried many different ways. Sometimes I'll say, you know,

ways. Sometimes I'll say, you know, Jacob, please behave. Follow the line.

This is the line. Stay in the thing. And

sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. And I've also said, okay, just

doesn't. And I've also said, okay, just fine, just be infinite. Do whatever you want. And sometimes that works,

want. And sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. Um, I think you, you know, when something is finished because not not if it's good or pristine or polished, but if it's the best, if it

feels the most itself, it's possible for it to feel. That to me is a good metric for for something being a finished or complete idea. It's not, oh, is it

complete idea. It's not, oh, is it sparkling clean or is it overengineered or you to to into oblivion. It's does it still contain the essence of itself and is that essence able to shine? So I know

myself well enough now to know that when I first have an idea it will goang and then if I can hold my energy together like a pool then other ideas will come in and collide and make sparks and then I make a bigger container and then make

sparks and at some point I I stop making containers and I utilize what's already there. So um you know you take something

there. So um you know you take something that exists here and you apply it here and you take this and apply it here like that and it's like you you finish your painting. But a really important skill I

painting. But a really important skill I had to learn was how was how to finish a thing. Um, and one of the reasons why I

thing. Um, and one of the reasons why I did Jesse was because I I needed to learn that. So I thought, well, if I if

learn that. So I thought, well, if I if I make four albums, then I'm going to have to finish a lot of music. So So

that then I'll have to figure it out.

And I kind of I kind of did. Um, but

it's hard. But yeah, you have to know here if if the thing you're making is the thing that it wants to be, you know, and and and again, it's not about if other people like it or if it if it

ticks a bunch of boxes. It's just if it's the right thing, right? I wrote a song once called The Sun is in Your Eyes. It's a little guitar song and I

Eyes. It's a little guitar song and I recorded it on my phone just for safekeeping. And um I thought when I got

safekeeping. And um I thought when I got home, I'll I'll record it and make it good and finish it up, whatever. And

went home and tried to record it and it just sucked so so bad. And I so I released the voice memo and that taught me a a load of things and and one of those is that sometimes the raw unfettered version of your idea is in

fact the most complete and other times you start with an idea and you scale it and grow it and orchestrate it and there's a choir and whatever and then that's the final version of your thing but only you will really know when your thing is done. That makes sense.

>> Yeah.

>> Cool. Very good. Very good. Very good.

I'm going to take one from the balcony.

I'm going to go with you in the pink jumper right there. Now hold that thought.

Thank you. Um, yeah, so I wanted to ask, you talked a bit about bringing things together and making alchemy and colliding things and creativity. Um, and

I'm really taken by that idea, but I find also there's a lot of alchemy that I also really like and want to recreate.

And so how do you especially because I'm a jazz student, how do you how have you gone about studying people who have made this amazing alchemy that you want to take from and replicate

>> but then also bring your own creativity and alchemy and music into that?

>> Yeah, great question. Um, well I think first of all when it comes to studying a person and this could be instrumentalist or a writer or arranger or producer, it's important to study them on different levels. So you can't just

different levels. So you can't just study them from this perspective. So for

example, if I transcribe somebody solo, which I used to do when I was a child, I'd learn a Jarrett or a solo or a cannonball solo, whatever it was, and it was so much fun. Finnish newborn junior,

whatever it happened to be. And it would be an amazing exercise to zoom into the notes and get comfortable with the nuance and climb inside.

And it's easy to lose perspective in that way because you kind of end up doing this. And I know this as a

doing this. And I know this as a creator, too. But one of the reasons why

creator, too. But one of the reasons why it's hard to finish ideas actually is because I sometimes can only look at them from this perspective and I need to put it on when I'm over here like feeding Jethro or like doing something

different or in the car or whatever. Um

so I think to study someone you can study from here. Oh, how does it feel?

If I if I close my eyes, if I squint, what's the ish what's the broad the kind of the the ish the wiggly idea? And then

you zoom in and think, oh, what are the individual notes? But I find myself kind

individual notes? But I find myself kind of magnifying glassing in the sense of I'll zoom in and then I'll zoom out.

I'll zoom in and zoom out. And that to me is is a complete form of study when you're studying how the how the emotional center is moving and feeling and also how the language center is

moving and feeling and both things. Um I

I find my own creativity inevitable. Um

I don't find it something I need to necessarily design, but I do think I need to make room for it and and I need to observe it. So, for example, if I'm trying to learn a solo from some

somebody, then I will inevitably just want to do my own thing. I want to break the thing, whatever. And so, I rather than say, "You're not allowed to do that, Jacob." I'll I'll watch myself do

that, Jacob." I'll I'll watch myself do it and and lean in and explore what I'm doing and then bring myself back, bring the intention back to the thing. And and

there's always a mixture of of of the two sides. Um, someone once told me, you

two sides. Um, someone once told me, you know, if you really want to if you really want to build a language with with improvising in jazz, you should compose your own solos and not not to play live, but as an exercise, you know,

take a stand or whatever it is, and write your dream solo. What you'll learn as a as a composer because improvisation is like composition in in in real time.

You know, composition is stop time improvisation. Um, you learn what you

improvisation. Um, you learn what you like. And when you know what you like,

like. And when you know what you like, you actually get to build a language out out of out of your own DNA, not just out of the DNA of people you love. But I

find that if there's a mixture of those approaches, you know, some some input from people you love and respect, including people that you don't like very much or don't really understand, people from different walks of life, and

also you always lend to your own language, let it flourish and flower and weeds can grow, whatever, and then you harvest the things you like and build them into your language. I think you need both sides of that. And there were

some people I I I knew when I was when I was younger who were in the jazz world who would learn everything they played from other people and and you could you could tell, you know, because it was just like, okay, that comes from this

person, that comes this person. But but

there's an essence to a person uh yeah, when it comes to language that where you you know, if something is is really belonging to a person and often the way of revealing a language is to go to the most extreme aspects of that language

and really lean into that. Um, so do a whole solo on one note or do you know do a solo in two parts or um only play really quietly you know all these ways of subverting yourself and I think the

more you subvert when I think talk about alchemy a lot of it is like about creating the conditions for a more creative idea to come through and a lot of that is about subverting the expectation of what you expect. So, if I can only play loudly from the first note

of my solo and I cannot play any quiet notes or I start loud and I have to get progressively quieter throughout my solo, I'm definitely going to play things I've never played before. So, I

think I I will always enjoy designing uh containers for myself to to be unpredictable. This goes back to the

unpredictable. This goes back to the question actually about AI almost. It's

like we're free from these systems if we can be unpredictable including our own large language models that exist in our brains. That's that's how we become

brains. That's that's how we become interesting is by overstepping the line.

And sometimes sometimes you need to overstep a line for it to be revealed.

You know, you don't know a line is there until you've crossed it. So cross all the lines and as you do it, build build a language of the the parts of that that you enjoy and that feel like useful tools and then build from there. Thank

you very much. Yeah, no problems. We're going to take one from the very top and I don't know how to Oh, there's a microphone. Okay, great. I'll take Yeah,

microphone. Okay, great. I'll take Yeah, you sir. There. Yes. Closest to. Yes.

you sir. There. Yes. Closest to. Yes.

Great. Thanks. Uh, hi. Um,

>> good day.

>> I'm a harpist and composer and I'm obsessively fascinated with harmony. Um,

and so I was wondering I often think about this idea of like a harmonic world and these figures that have introduced harmonic worlds and championed them like Bach or Shernburgg or you know arguably

etc. Um, and so and you've mentioned like your work that goes beyond 12 tuning. I'm wondering, do you think that

tuning. I'm wondering, do you think that there are still harmonic worlds that we haven't heard or experienced yet? And

can they or will they be integrated into the musical cannon at some point?

>> Yeah, great question. Um, yes.

Yes, the answer is yes, absolutely without shadow of a doubt. I think we will do what we've always done, which is to build on what's come before and take it into new frontiers. And you might be some of the people to do it. Um because

I think there's there are unlimited ways to combine things. I think there's a myth about being original and the myth is that to be original you have to do something that's that's never been done before. You have to come up with new

before. You have to come up with new stuff. I don't think that to be original

stuff. I don't think that to be original you need to be new. I think you need to combine old things in new ways. And that

goes for harmony very much. I don't need to make new notes up. I can just recombine the notes that are already there. And there are infinite notes of

there. And there are infinite notes of course. So lucky me and you. But yeah,

course. So lucky me and you. But yeah,

the reality is you don't have to reinvent the whole wheel to be meaningful or or to be original, be new.

You just need to say, "Okay, I'm going to script my eyes. This is how I see it." And then throw the ball into the

it." And then throw the ball into the into the room and then the ball will be carried on and it will keep going going going until the next person captures it.

You know, we're all collaborators in that way. We're all building the world

that way. We're all building the world together. Um so that's that's the short

together. Um so that's that's the short answer that I'd say.

>> Thank you. Very good. One more question.

Uh one more question. I'll get one from the middle. Um you sir in the blue. Yes,

the middle. Um you sir in the blue. Yes,

that's you. That's you.

>> No worries. Okay. Wait, wait, wait for the mic. Wait for the mic.

the mic. Wait for the mic.

>> Thanks so much for doing this. I

appreciate it. Um, I can see how important your mother has been in your life. Yeah.

life. Yeah.

>> And I was just um I was just wondering what is like the the greatest lesson that she ever taught you and something that really sticks with you like you know whether that's every day when you're writing music or just like a

philosophy that she's taught you.

>> Brilliant. Oh, thanks for asking this question. Um, I have a very cool mother,

question. Um, I have a very cool mother, Susie Collier. Shout out.

Susie Collier. Shout out.

>> And, um, she is an incredible musician.

She's an amazing violin player, incredible conductor. Um, but I would

incredible conductor. Um, but I would say none of the important lessons I learned from her were musical lessons.

They were about people, energy, and permission. So, I used to sit in like a

permission. So, I used to sit in like a chair like you're sitting in and watch my mom stand here when I was two or three and she would be like this and she'd be going and the musicians would go, you know, and I thought it's like it's literally like casting a spell.

Like, how are you doing this? What's

going on? Um, and you know, like when you're a child, a lot of the lessons you learn are kind of through osmosis more than through study. It's like you learn them through play, not through study.

But I I played with the principles around her. Students would come into the

around her. Students would come into the househ, you know, and then they'd leave like this. How did you do that? And I used to

this. How did you do that? And I used to sit on her lap and watch her teach too.

The thing I learned, I think I would say the ultimate nugget I would say is as a teacher, as a performer, as a parent, you are only as powerful as you make

other people feel. That's that's it. So,

if you can give people the feeling that they matter and that they're a part of the thing you're building, then they'll remember that feeling forever. There's a

beautiful Myer Angelou quote that says, you know, people won't remember what you say. They won't remember what you do,

say. They won't remember what you do, but they'll remember how you make them feel. And she's a a prime example of

feel. And she's a a prime example of that. She she gives you a feeling.

that. She she gives you a feeling.

Actually, you give you the feeling. It

was always there, but she creates the conditions where that feeling is revealed. And that's a really cool thing

revealed. And that's a really cool thing to be able to do. And so, you know, I never thought I'd be a conductor when I was small. I didn't think I'm going to

was small. I didn't think I'm going to grow up and conduct orchestras. But I

accidentally became one from the stage when I started to realize how much power there was in people singing together.

And a lot of the principles I draw on are those foundational lessons. I call

them lessons, but they were they were looser than that. But they were lessons around around permission. If I give you permission to go and I'm not afraid of that. I'm I'm not afraid of your

that. I'm I'm not afraid of your freedom. It's like a different

freedom. It's like a different leadership model, I think, than we're used to. um you know the the idea of g

used to. um you know the the idea of g giving you the the autonomy and the the authority to go and take it wherever you want to go but but I'm able to hold you

in a place together that feels important and and again in music it's it's it's one way in which it can express itself really well but there are so many other ways besides um and obviously as a kid I

was brought up by her so she was able to create those conditions in in other areas of my life besides music which is so amazing and and now now we now we do gigs together and will come and conduct the orchestra and it's amazing cuz I get

to like be within that organism that I witnessed as a child. Um, and we've we've we've spoken about it since more like what how did you do that? Like what

was going on? And she said, "Well, this is how I think about it and and all of that." But yeah, we're all introverts in

that." But yeah, we're all introverts in my family, me included. But I think my mother was very comfortable with people and I'm also quite comfortable with people and I think I've learned how to scale my inner world into the outside

world comfortably. not like or something

world comfortably. not like or something but like comfortably because of the way that I saw her be in the world if that makes sense. Yeah. Very good. Very good

makes sense. Yeah. Very good. Very good

indeed. Um should we do a quick song to finish? Um before the song I will say I

finish? Um before the song I will say I know we need to go because there's like exams in this room is two two minutes.

Literally two. Um there is on campus a little amphitheater area. Do you know what I'm talking

area. Do you know what I'm talking about? It's it's got little

about? It's it's got little >> It's actually Botanic Garden. Raw

Botanic Gardens. Um there there's there's an area where a few I think a couple hundred people can hang out. Um

if you're not busy uh and you want to meet me at the botanical gardens at half past 12, um we could do a bit more singing, a bit more circle singing in there. I just know we need to be kicked

there. I just know we need to be kicked out of this room um very soon. So yeah,

you're welcome to join um for a brief shindig. Um but but also just thank you

shindig. Um but but also just thank you so much for for coming and for singing so beautifully, for asking such intelligent and lovely questions. It's

so nice to see you and to meet you. Um

I'll see you in December and maybe on the the gardens, but uh to everyone here and here, thank you so much for having me everyone. Thanks very much.

me everyone. Thanks very much.

[Music] When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to me,

speaking words of wisdom. Let it be.

And in this world of darkness, she is standing right in front of me,

speaking words of wisdom. Let it be.

Sing it. Let it be.

Let it be.

Let it be.

Let it be.

Sweet words.

Let it be.

All the brokenhearted people living the world agree will be one side. Let it be.

Though we may be parted, there is still a chance that they will see

spirit words of wisdom. Let it be.

Let it be. Let it be.

Let it be. Let it be.

Sing words.

Let it be.

Let it let me.

There will be an answer.

Let it be.

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

[Music] Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat.

[Music] Heat up here.

Heat Heat up here.

[Applause] Heat up here.

Heat.

[Applause]

Heat.

[Applause]

Ain't now where we go.

Bes on the wing train [Music] down in the hollow [Music] playing here a new

laughing and a jumping h skip and a hing in the misty morning

[Music] but Brown angle.

You and me, my brown angle.

Whatever happens to Tuesday and so slow going down the old mine with a transistor rail.

Standing in the sunlight, laughing, hiding around the rainbow's wall, skipping and hopping all along the waterfall.

A browneyed girl.

You and me, my brown eye girl.

Do you remember where we used to sing?

[Music] La.

[Music]

So hard to find my way now that I'm all on my own.

I saw you just the other day. And

my how you go my memory back there, Lord.

Sometimes I'm overcome just thinking about it. Making love in the green green

about it. Making love in the green green go all along the stadium with you.

A brown girl.

You and me are brown girl.

Do you remember when?

I know you remember when.

Do you remember why?

Oh, remember when remember we used to sing la.

[Music] >> Sing it louder. La

sh.

[Music] [Music] [Applause] Oh sh [Applause]

[Applause] go.

Oh wble la.

[Music] la.

[Music] [Music] sh

[Music] go.

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

Light it up.

[Music] Woo!

Woo!

This is the perfect shape to try a thing which is called circle singing. I don't

know how many of you know about circle singing. It's really good fun. It can go

singing. It's really good fun. It can go for hours and we don't have hours but we have minutes. The way circle singing

have minutes. The way circle singing works is you you have a certain number of groups. I'm going to say four. So

of groups. I'm going to say four. So

we'll say here's a group. Everybody in

this group here. We're trying to be in this group.

>> Yay. Okay. Then this group here, everyone here. Raise your hand if you're

everyone here. Raise your hand if you're in the group. Outstanding. And then this group sit here. All of you. Hi. And then

this group is everyone here.

>> Yes. And all of you at the back as well.

You're in the group. Okay. So, circle

singing is like a really um it's an ancient tradition, ancient song tradition. And the way it works is that

tradition. And the way it works is that a leader, in this case, me for a brief time will stand here and I'll give you things to sing and you loop them. It's

like you're like a looping machine. And

then I'll nominate someone. I'll pick

someone out of the audience and then you take my place and then you can edit you can edit whatever I'm doing and change it into what you want to do. And then

you can nominate somebody else in turn and it goes from there. Um and then at some point I might just jump back and like finish it. Okay. Does that sound like a like a good time?

>> Cool. Don't be nervous. It's like

literally chill. It's it's totally fine.

Sorry. Uh let's go. Uh let's go. Zuma

up.

Up.

[Music] Yeah.

Okay, who wants to have a go?

>> Anyone?

[Applause] [Music] Cha cha cha cha cha cha cha cha cha wow.

[Music] [Applause] All right.

[Music] [Applause] >> butter.

[Applause] Where are [Music] we? Where are de?

we? Where are de?

[Music] The way are the way.

The way are the way.

the way the way the way

[Applause] [Music] [Applause] La

[Music] [Applause]

[Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause]

Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat.

[Music]

[Applause] [Music] Light

[Music] I [Music] Dal [Music] hey

[Applause] you might [Applause] Down down down down down down

Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat.

[Applause] Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat.

[Music] [Applause] La Power.

Power.

Power.

[Applause] Don't die.

[Applause]

Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat.

[Applause]

Down [Laughter] down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down come Heat. Heat.

come Heat. Heat.

Heat.

[Applause] [Applause] Heat. Woo!

Heat. Woo!

Heat!

[Applause]