Jake Paul Joins the Show, Lulu in the Ultradome, and More

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>> Today is Tuesday, January 6th, 2026. We

are live from the TVPN Ultra Dome, the temple of technology, >> the fortress of finance, the capital of capital, >> ramp.com, time is money. Save both

corporate cards, bill pay, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place.

We actually ran into some good folks at RAM today at breakfast. Very good omen to the start of 2026 to run into some some folks at RAMP. Uh we had a good time. Uh anyway, they were here in LA.

time. Uh anyway, they were here in LA.

They're working on a secret project that I'm sure we'll talk about at some point, but you'll hear about it.

>> They where they weren't is they're not at CES because RAMP is not a consumer electronics project >> yet. We could see them get into the AI

>> yet. We could see them get into the AI hardware. Maybe they should launch.

hardware. Maybe they should launch.

>> We shouldn't count anyone out.

>> They should launch a TV.

>> I saw that Razer launched an AI companion. You know, Razer

companion. You know, Razer >> Razer computer.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The gaming

company.

>> They have an AI companion now. They

launched at CES. You should never count anyone out.

>> Yeah, it really is like the the festival of creativity for like weird AI projects, weird tech projects. Everyone

has some side. It it has a little bit of like hacker culture to it almost, but it's also a little washed, right?

>> Is it hacker? I I I >> It's not hacker. It's more just like I don't know, bizarre spin-off. What do

you think?

>> I think it's it's I think at this point it's like fairly boomercoded.

>> It's very boomer coded, but it's also describe it as much. So, so I think I I I was uh talking to a buddy Yeah.

>> who texted me yesterday morning. He

said, "Are you at CES this week?"

>> Yeah.

>> He uh seemed desperate to to uh to hang out. And I said, "Unfortunately, I'm

out. And I said, "Unfortunately, I'm not." And I was thinking about it and

not." And I was thinking about it and it's in in some ways it feels like somewhat of a humiliation ritual for people in tech to say like, "You just had this nice holiday and now we're going to force you to go to Vegas and

smoo for 5 days.

>> Get ready to go to Vegas. ready to smoo.

>> It sounds exhausting. I I've actually never been to CES, but um they do you know what they call CES? They they they still got it in terms of the branding.

They're coming in strong.

>> What is it?

>> CES refers to itself as the most powerful tech event in the world.

>> Really bringing the superlatives.

>> It might be. It might be. I mean,

>> I think it still is.

>> It probably still is.

>> Uh >> yeah, >> there's a bunch of launches that we should talk about. I want to talk about the smart brick.

>> Okay. For sure. from Lego. But why don't we go into your your oped?

>> Yeah. So, uh I I I call it the death of the tech conference because I noticed something which we'll get into. But um

what's interesting is like CES launched so long ago, 1967.

Isn't that like I I would have said like 85 maybe 92, right? 67.

>> What were the consumer electronics at the first event? Uh, so I mean the the number of things that launched at uh CES is is actually crazy. So uh the VCR

launched at CES like the thing that you put the tape into. I know you don't watch movies and you never had a VCR. I

had a VCR.

>> I actually VCR.

>> I actually did.

>> You had a VCR?

>> Like a personal little >> Yeah. You put the tape in, you have to

>> Yeah. You put the tape in, you have to rewind it when you're done watching the movie. That launched at CES. CES started

movie. That launched at CES. CES started

in 1967. It was a sleepy affair until 1970 when Philillips unveiled its N1,500 video cassette recorder. Until that

point, VCRs cost upwards of $50,000.

Imagine dropping 50 G's on.

>> Okay. At the first one in 1967, they had transistor radios. Yeah. Early colored

transistor radios. Yeah. Early colored

televisions.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh phonographs and tape recorders.

>> Yeah. Uh I'm going to tell you more about what launched at CES. But first,

I'm going to tell you about Lambda.

Lambda is the super intelligence cloud building AI supercomputers for training and inference at scale from one GPU to hundreds of thous.

>> Can we show can we show our new our new >> we have the lambda lightning round. We

have a cloud a physical cloud. This is

not AI generated not CGI. It's here

>> here in the studio >> and uh we're very excited for Lambda lightning round. We have a lightning

lightning round. We have a lightning round today with a bunch of folks including uh Jake Paul is joining. We

have James Simmonoff. We have uh Matt from Doctronic. We have a lot of folks.

from Doctronic. We have a lot of folks.

Uh all of that is in the linear run of show which we can show you the linear lineup taking you through uh guests day.

>> Alex Epstein, Jamie Simmonoff.

>> We're going to dive into the piece that I wrote yesterday about energy with Alex. He's an expert in energy

Alex. He's an expert in energy production.

>> We are going to cap it off with Lulu today.

>> We got a we got a we got a massive lineup. Uh, so anyway, speaking of

lineup. Uh, so anyway, speaking of lineups, uh, the lineup of stuff that launched at CES, the Atari Pong console 1975, the CD player launched in 1981 at

CES, the Commodore 64 1982, the DVD at 1996, the Xbox in 2001.

>> And we really got to play this video of how the Xbox launched because it will 2001, Bill Gates gets on stage at CES.

He doesn't host his own conference, which is what I'm going to talk about with my thesis of like what why the tech conference is dying. But he launches and you know today we think we're so cool.

Oh, tech companies they have vibe reels and they have cinematic videos and they go on podcasts and they do podcast circuits when they launch things. Get on

stage with Dwayne the Rock Johnson.

That's the bar because that's exactly what Bill Gates did in 2001 when he launched the Xbox. We got to play this video.

>> Unveiling the Xbox.

>> Look at this. Uh this is the product that will be out uh later this year. Uh

and there's an amazing amount going on.

Uh working with uh partners who help build the hardware, working with the software developers, working with the retailers. The program around this thing

retailers. The program around this thing is really quite phenomenal. But the box itself uh is another thing that we put a lot of energy into. So you may have been

wondering what this great device was here. This is showmanship.

here. This is showmanship.

>> This is the Xbox. This is the Xbox.

>> Uh, for the first time, let me now unveil Xbox.

>> Do you ever have one of these?

>> Uh, with the controller in the in the plexiglass. Very cool.

plexiglass. Very cool.

>> Yeah. Dangling down there. This was

iconic. Play Call of Duty, the original Modern Warfare was on there.

>> Design here was driven by spending time with gamers and actually putting the control in their hands. Try it out.

>> The controller was huge. The first

controller was so big they had to make a smaller one because they just went like way too big for some reason. I guess

they were testing on the wrong type of people or something.

>> Were you Were they testing on you?

>> No, there's this whole meme that it was like really good for Shaq, but that was it. And Shaq loved it or something like

it. And Shaq loved it or something like that. I seem to remember this. I don't

that. I seem to remember this. I don't

know.

>> Loaded as you move from level to level.

>> What you're seeing on the front, the eject uh the onoff button and four game ports. Uh that was one of the big pieces

ports. Uh that was one of the big pieces of feedback was people didn't want to be limited to two. Yeah, the PlayStation I think just had two at the time and maybe the N64 had four.

>> Um, but this was like a big jump jump forward >> and then Dwayne comes out.

>> Yeah, 246. While they are skipping ahead, let me tell you about Labelbox delivering you the highest quality data for Frontier AI. Um, and we can go to 2 minutes and 46 seconds

>> are so state-of-the-art uh that they'll only be done uh right as we finish the manufacturing. So, we'll plug those

manufacturing. So, we'll plug those chips in. Except for that, everything in

chips in. Except for that, everything in this box is the final design.

>> Here we go. Look at this. Getting a

celebrity like that. Like, OpenAI had so many announcements this year. There was

the whole Scarlett Johansson thing. They

didn't bring out the Rock.

>> Yeah, I might want to use that sometime, Bill.

>> Well, thanks Rock. And it really >> The celebrity cameo in tech launch is completely forgotten art. We don't know how to do this anymore. fivetime WWF

champion.

>> All right, pause for a second >> because I think people would be shocked at how inexpensive it could be to work with a a a effect. I don't know about a

list, but maybe like an aging out like somebody that was iconic, actor, an athlete, etc. and just instead of spending $30,000 on some insane launch

video, >> just get a camera and hire some celebrity and have them explain your product.

>> That I that would be genius. Yeah. I

mean, you see a lot of these >> there was that there was that uh that drink company uh that that did this. Do

you remember they they had some celebrity like read every >> I do remember that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Orca. Orca.

>> Yeah. Orca. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We

remember it today. and and a lot of a lot of founders have figured out how to marshall the right resources for really cinematic footage, good editing, a bunch of things to to introduce their product,

but some of them just aren't charismatic on camera, unfortunately, and they just don't have the reps. So, if you bring in a celebrity, it can just also it's just way way more thumb stopping. Like,

you're just going to be scrolling and oh, what what is The Rock doing there promoting your product? Obviously, not

everyone has the resources of Microsoft.

I bet that was expensive and who knows how doable it is, but I bet if you get creative, there is a way to do it. Uh

anyway, CES when it launched, uh I thought this was impressive. Uh 1967, no like no precedent. There's not really a tech community. It's sort of new. 17,000

tech community. It's sort of new. 17,000

people show up. 200 companies put on exhibitions. That seems like a lot. It's

exhibitions. That seems like a lot. It's

grown not even 10x. I mean, this was this year or in 2024, they had 130,000 attendees. Like, it's grown a lot, but

attendees. Like, it's grown a lot, but it's not, you know, it started out pretty big. Um I personally love

pretty big. Um I personally love consumer technology. Uh, I've always

consumer technology. Uh, I've always been like a tech nerd and liked tinkering with gadgets and whatnot. Uh,

but I think this year should be more interesting because the Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, IoT, all that stuff was like sort of annoying. Maybe the AI stuff gets

of annoying. Maybe the AI stuff gets annoying, but I still feel like there's more opportunity for actually cool integrations with AI in uh in all sorts of different hardware things. At the

same time, I was at Best Buy over the break and I saw a TV that said it was powered by AI and I was just shuddering thinking about how bad of an experience that probably was because like what is it going to be trying to do? It's

probably not integrating like a Frontier model. It's probably some really really

model. It's probably some really really sloppy thing.

>> Samsung had had a big announcement last year >> perplexity integration. I don't know.

And again, I just think anytime you're in a situation where you could ask your TV >> Yeah.

>> for information, it's probably easier to ask your phone. So, I don't know.

usually and yeah and so I I think you need to be a little bit more first principles when you think about these integrations thing. We'll get into some

integrations thing. We'll get into some of the stuff that actually launched that sounded interesting. Um but uh I wanted

sounded interesting. Um but uh I wanted to go into the history of like how the tech conference like the the the tech conference that's not linked to a single company sort of died and a lot of it uh

goes back to uh the iPhone actually. So

uh the iPhone probably the biggest consumer electronics product in history.

Uh, it should have been launched at this consumer electronic show. Like it is the consumer electronics juggernaut. It

should have been launched >> most important consumer product of the 21st century.

>> Totally. And they got scooped by Macworld. Uh, because Jobs wanted more

Macworld. Uh, because Jobs wanted more control over how the presentation would go. So he chose to debut the iPhone at

go. So he chose to debut the iPhone at Macworld in San Francisco on January 9th, 2007. And Macworld was technically

9th, 2007. And Macworld was technically independent from Apple. So the

conference was created by IDG, this international data group. Very

interesting story there. where they had Computer World and PC World and a bunch of different conferences, publications.

That guy started a magazine, >> International Data Group.

>> Fantastic.

>> We don't know how to make names like that.

>> Yeah. He's right up there with IBM.

Seriously. And uh and and he, you know, kind of scaled this business.

Eventually, Mac World was technically independent from from Apple, but Apple was like obviously the cornerstone draw to the event. So, they give them the keynote, great floor space, and then all the other independent thirdparty Mac

developers. So if you were developing a

developers. So if you were developing a piece of software or even just like you know a phone case didn't make sense at that time but like you could imagine all sorts of different peripherals a printer you'd go there and and figure out

partnerships and and do deals. Um but uh uh launching the iPhone at Macworld which happened at the exact same time as CES. Uh it allowed Jobs to control

CES. Uh it allowed Jobs to control everything about the big reveal, the lighting, the pacing. He was famously like fanatical about this. Uh he

rehearsed for weeks and weeks and weeks.

He wanted things exactly. He wanted

certain demos to happen after and he just got way more control at Mac World than he would have gotten at CES. And

the big thing is that at CES journalists go around from booth to booth and they compare spec sheets. So with TVs we know like 4K, 8K, 3D, not 3D, uh OLED or

refresh rate or number of ports, price point. So they create these like charts

point. So they create these like charts and they keep everything in a category and he wanted to be category defining and he wanted to break the category and he also did not want to be compared to

uh to the Nokia N95. No, the Nokia N95 was actually the best. Weird name.

>> It was more more performant.

>> Yeah, it beat it on basically everything at the time.

>> He didn't want to go specto spec.

>> He didn't. He didn't. So the Nokia had 3G already. It had GPS. It allowed for

3G already. It had GPS. It allowed for copy pasting of text. It had a front-facing camera. It had a 5

front-facing camera. It had a 5 megapixel rear until we can copy and paste. We don't have that. We don't have

paste. We don't have that. We don't have that power.

>> No. The number of features that the Noki N95 was crazy. Uh it could record videos. The iPhone couldn't record

videos. The iPhone couldn't record videos. Uh it had a 5 megapixel camera

videos. Uh it had a 5 megapixel camera instead of a 2 megapixel camera. It even

had an FM radio, which I don't I don't think anyone really wants, but uh you know, it had a bunch of features that if it was just if you just created a table of iPhone versus Nokia uh N95, the Nokia

beat it on like you know, 10 different uh specs. The only thing that the iPhone

uh specs. The only thing that the iPhone really had going for it was that it had a touchcreen and uh and the Nokia didn't, but people didn't think they wanted a touchcreen at that point because most touchscreens were terrible

and the iPhone sort of had the first good touchcreen and then also it had some other unique Apple innovations like a fullfeatured Safari web browser, but it didn't even have third-party apps.

The Nokia did and so Steve Jobs was able to sort of reframe the whole iPhone discussion as like it's just its own thing. Don't comp us to Nokia. Why are

thing. Don't comp us to Nokia. Why are

we talking about Nokia? We're not going to talk about Nokia. They're not at Mac World. They're not allowed to be here.

World. They're not allowed to be here.

>> Best marketer of all time >> clearly and everyone copied him. So, uh,

very, very quickly, every tech company wanted to do the same thing. Set their

own agenda, have full control over the event from start to finish. Apple

actually pulled out of Mac World two years later, went started doing WWDC and uh and and their own uh their own self-hosted events, self-distributed events. Obviously, technology itself uh

events. Obviously, technology itself uh makes a lot of that easier. Cameras are

cheaper. You can live stream. you can go to reream uh and you can and you can get um your your your event everywhere. So

you have Google IO, Microsoft Build, Meta Connect, Samsung Unpacked. Like

when Zuck introduced the latest Meta Ray-B band displays, he didn't do it at CES. He didn't wait for CES. He was just

CES. He didn't wait for CES. He was just like, I'm going to have my own event. He

did it at his own event. He created his own news cycle and it was it was like, you know, he had full control over that.

Uh and so uh everyone's followed Jobs playbook and it's been remarkably successful. Like I don't think it's been

successful. Like I don't think it's been a miss. Um the older trade show format

a miss. Um the older trade show format still works for lots of companies and big tech companies do still have presences. So just today at CES or

presences. So just today at CES or yesterday uh Jensen was there and and Nvidia unveiled Ver Rubin uh their new uh >> which looks incredible.

>> Yeah. But also it's not a consumer electronics product. It's kind of an odd

electronics product. It's kind of an odd place to do it but it's like a fun event. But even Nvidia has their own

event. But even Nvidia has their own conferences now. So, um, and but my main

conferences now. So, um, and but my main takeway is like just like in terms of key moments in tech history, I don't expect them to happen at independent trade shows anymore. And truthfully,

they haven't happened there for decades.

We looked at the VCR and the CD player and the Xbox that's uh, you know, over 25 years old now at this point. Uh,

although the uh, the Rock alongside Bill Gates is an iconic moment, but that is of old at this point. Uh, and so still there's plenty to get from a show from CES. Uh, it's a fantastic place. like if

CES. Uh, it's a fantastic place. like if

you're in the industry, you don't go as like a fan. A lot of people who are Apple fans will watch uh will watch an Apple keynote just to know, hey, should I buy the new iPhone? Uh you don't

really go to CES with that same idea or that goal. You go because you're there

that goal. You go because you're there looking for a supplier or someone to distribute or you go because >> you're in the industry.

>> Your CEO has is >> get ready to drink by in Vegas.

>> Get ready to go.

>> Seriously. Seriously. Um anyway, uh let me tell you about Crowd Strike. your

business is AI, their business is securing it. Crowd Strike secures AI and

securing it. Crowd Strike secures AI and stops breaches.

Um and uh and and there are some fun things that did launch at CES. Uh the

first thing that I wanted to go through was the Wall Street Journal's write up of CES coverage is interesting because it's almost no consumer electronics. So

of course they highlighted Nvidia uh the faster art artificial intelligence chips, Vera Rubin, the CPU GPU combination. Uh, MercedesBenz, uh,

combination. Uh, MercedesBenz, uh, Nvidia has a partnership, uh, to make the the first autonomous car built in partnership with Mercedes-Benz set to hit US roads in the first 3 months of

this year.

>> The tire of my Mercedes-Benz uh, exploded autonomously this morning on the way to work.

>> You've been complaining about the roads in LA and making this point like you need an SUV since the beginning of the show. And

show. And >> and my and my and what's happened? Yeah,

I've >> had three tires blown out on uh on LA roads. I do think I was complaining

roads. I do think I was complaining about I don't I'm not sure if it was on air or off here, but at least in the last >> 48 hours, I was I was joking about needing an SUV

>> uh for uh the LA roads and of course this morning at 5:35 a.m. The tire did not survive a pothole.

a.m. The tire did not survive a pothole.

Uh anyways, >> ridiculous. Going forward, AMD uh the

>> ridiculous. Going forward, AMD uh the journal says AMD also unveiled its latest AI chips known as the Instinct uh which will launch later this year.

They're expected to be AMD's strongest competition to Nvidia yet. Shares fell

more than 2%. However,

>> uh Uber, >> the ride hailing company plus EV maker Lucid and Nuro have begun on-road testing for their planned robo taxi service. Uber expects to offer the

service. Uber expects to offer the service in San Francisco later this year. stock jumped five and a half

year. stock jumped five and a half percent. So CES uh at least

percent. So CES uh at least announcements are still moving. Yeah.

Moving the market.

>> There's some other cool stuff. I mean,

Dell's in here. Uh they're reviving the XPS computer line, but um the they also launched a massive 52 in monitor or something like that. 6K monitor. And I

feel like that could be pretty sick if you need >> if you're monitoring situations. Course

get like six.

>> Yeah.

>> Six of these.

>> Uh let me tell you about console.

Console builds AI agents that automate 70% of IT, HR, and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets. Um,

uh, Lego launched a smart brick and high-tech Star Wars toys.

>> This was this was the launch launch of the year contender and it's it's the first week in January. So, let's pull it up if if this a smart minifigure and you'll see

from the sound and the color when it detects it.

But it's not just looking for the minifigure. It knows who that minifigure

minifigure. It knows who that minifigure is. And actually, it knows where that

is. And actually, it knows where that minifigure is. So, as I move the

minifigure is. So, as I move the minifigure around, you'll see different lights and colors depending on where the minifigure is compared to the brick.

>> What does this allow us to do? Well, you

>> more dopamine for children. Let's go.

>> I think this is good. I I remember >> we turned every Lego brick into a mini iPad.

I I remember there were >> We're excited to addict your children to Legos.

>> Uh there was some sort of Lego programmable computer, but it was much larger. It was about this big when I was

larger. It was about this big when I was a kid. And uh

a kid. And uh >> yeah, Lego Mindstorms. >> Mindstorms. That was it. That was

amazing because you could actually learn to program a little bit. And you could do little like self-driving cars like line following. You could draw a line on

line following. You could draw a line on the ground that could have a little camera that looked at the line and follow it around. Uh, and it it just let you build.

>> Ryan says the Lego Turbo Puffer is gonna need a rebuild. Totally. Simon, we need to make this a smart Lego puffer.

>> Smart puffer for sure.

>> Um, but yeah, so LEGO's launching the most ambitious brick it's ever made. A

tiny computer that fits entirely inside a classic 2x4 Lego brick. It will make entire Lego sets come to life with humming lightsabers, roaring engines, light up blasters, and more from the

Verge. Tom coverage. Very cool. Uh,

Verge. Tom coverage. Very cool. Uh,

Boston >> and of course Boston Dynamics >> demo champions of the world.

>> Yeah, they got to give these robots some 11 Labs voices. 11 Labs build intelligent realtime conversational agents reimagine human technology

interaction is a real call to action.

Let your robots talk. Yeah, with 11 Labs.

>> It definitely needs it as a feature, but Sawyer.

>> So Boston Dynamics is starting the year strong. They seem to be upset that

strong. They seem to be upset that Figure is valued at roughly one Ford Motor Company and uh they're not happy about it. So they're uh they're

about it. So they're uh they're launching they had a new video of >> uh various Boston Dynamics the de facto >> Hyundai.

>> Yeah. Here they've been doing this for so long. Um but uh I don't know. It

so long. Um but uh I don't know. It

looks good. I don't know.

>> How tall is it? 2.3 meters. Oh, that's

how long it can reach. That's pretty

big. I feel like a lot of the humanoids have been really really small. Just kind

of like smaller. Is this Is this not CGI? I can't even tell at this point.

CGI? I can't even tell at this point.

>> This looks like >> Wow. Oh, that was a cool move.

>> Wow. Oh, that was a cool move.

>> The way that it can move.

>> That was a cool move.

>> The way that it stands up is wild, too.

There's a video of it standing up. It

looks like a spider and then it kind of >> Yeah, very uh disconcerting, but >> that one is crazy. Oh, that we we we saw this from one of the Chinese uh uh humanoid.

>> Do you think where battery?

>> Uh maybe they're one of their first use cases could be gloving at >> Oh, yeah. That's really trendy. I've

been seeing that.

>> Gloving. I saw some video of somebody gloving on an airplane or something. You

see that one? Yeah, you saw that.

>> Tyler, you need to start gloving.

>> Yeah.

>> When a founder Anytime a founder raises more than $100 million, you got to say, "Can I glove for you?

>> Can I glove for you?

What is that from? Like EDM culture or something? I don't know. That's very

something? I don't know. That's very

funny. Dark.

>> Uh what uh what else is in this?

>> Uh yeah, the Boston Dynamics robot has an operating temperature range of -4 degrees Fahrenheit, which is pretty interesting. All the way up to 104.

interesting. All the way up to 104.

>> 104.

>> 6'2 in tall.

>> 104 feels like that's >> got a great build. Honestly, 6'2 198 pounds can can work in four.

>> What's it midface ratio?

How's this upper maxillary? It's a

circle.

>> It's a circle. Okay. Well, perfect.

That's a perfect ratio, I guess.

>> Uh, yeah. So, apparently Hyundai is preparing to deploy tens of thousands of their robots into their manufacturing facility. So,

facility. So, >> 66 pounds sustained uh, you know, weight capacity. Most most people can lift more

capacity. Most most people can lift more than that. Come on. We got to get those

than that. Come on. We got to get those numbers up. But, uh, yeah, this will be

numbers up. But, uh, yeah, this will be interesting. I uh I wonder I wonder what

interesting. I uh I wonder I wonder what the future of this company's tra traded hands so many times. It's owned by uh Hyundai right now. Uh they got to spin it out. They got to go public. They got

it out. They got to go public. They got

to get this thing in the public markets again. They got to launch on the New

again. They got to launch on the New York Stock Exchange. If they want to change the world, they got to raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange.

>> Great idea.

>> Uh should we talk about Jamie Diamond?

>> Let's do it. Uh, in the New York Times today, Jamie Diamond's 770 million hall shows how bankers are on top again.

Let's give it up for the bankers.

>> This is gongworthy.

>> This is gongworthy.

>> Let's do it. First gong.

>> The Trump admin is lifting regulations and deal making is heating up for Jamie Diamond. Being JP Morgan Chase's chief

Diamond. Being JP Morgan Chase's chief executive was more lucrative in 2025 than ever. For nearly 15 years, Jamie

than ever. For nearly 15 years, Jamie Diamond, the bank chieftain, has carried around what might as well be a talisman when he sees regulators, elected officials, and journalists.

>> Talisman? What are you talking about?

>> At just uh at just the right time in meetings, he breaks out a single page printout that he calls a spaghetti chart. On it, Mr. Diamond's under

chart. On it, Mr. Diamond's under underlings have crammed in tiny type a comically complicated flowchart meant to represent the various laws and regulations to which his company, JP

Morgan Chase, is subject. that theatrics

have finally worked. The Trump admin is not just taking apart regulations, but attacking the whole regulatory agencies that date back to the 2008 2009 financial crisis and were meant to keep banks from giving in to their worst

impulses. Regulators have also made it

impulses. Regulators have also made it easier for banks to pedal in risky assets again like cryptocurrency and President Trump paused enforcement of of foreign anti-bribery rules. Uh

interesting. Uh the deregulatory bonanza alone makes it the best time in a generation to be a banker. But there's

more. Falling interest rates and a permissive set of antitrust overseers are helping reverse a lull in the lucrative business of arranging M&A as the hundred billion dollar bidding war

between Netflix and Paramount for Warner Brothers. Discovery shows uh once

Brothers. Discovery shows uh once imperiled real estate loans look steadier thanks to the rebound in in office work. Stocks are near record

office work. Stocks are near record levels. The bond market had its best

levels. The bond market had its best year since 2020 and gold and silver have soared. All of which feeds the trading

soared. All of which feeds the trading businesses that keep Wall Street's profit machine humming.

>> Let's hear the profit machine.

>> In other words, as analysts at Keith uh Brewette and Woods recently put it, there's something for everyone. Big uh

big bank stocks rose 29% in 2025, almost doubling the gain of the US uh stock stock market overall. Smaller lenders

and community banks, which tend to have a narrow narrower focus on areas such as residential mortgages and consumer checking accounts, also gained but performed consider considerably less

well. Uh so again, I mean, a big part of

well. Uh so again, I mean, a big part of this is uh banks have just been, you know, obviously lending with their hands tied behind their backs as as the PE as the private credit ch.

>> That's true. That's actually true.

>> So they're just sitting and it's sort of the same thing with like crypto. It's

like uh you know I if there's going to be a uh if you're going to have a competitor that's like un less way less regulated that is a very uh that's a huge >> and why would I work with JP Morgan

Chase when I can work with world liberty financial just reinventing >> yeah financial yeah like the whole debanking self or not debanking bankless movement and stuff like I don't know

that it's been a huge headwind uh but >> no I think I I think that the uh combination of M&A yeah and uh private credit that that they have just been um you know private credit is just much

more loosely regulated.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Uh a combination of salary bonuses, dividends, stock grants and appreciation in his a lotment of the bank shares yielded roughly 770 million uh for Jamie Diamond. uh for the chief executives of

Diamond. uh for the chief executives of City whose shares rose more than 65% in 2025 after the bank slashed tens of thousands of jobs in a year'slong

restructuring and Goldman Sachs shares >> clapping for displacement.

You're going to be No, because they we're up 60.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay.

>> Yeah, because the way that you reacted there looked a little suspicious.

>> No, obviously >> for the for the labor displacement, >> but this is not this is not AI driven, of course.

>> Yeah. So, anyways, they're they're counting some unrealized gains here, of course.

>> Um, but uh anyways, big big year for for Jamie Diamond. Um, should we pop over to

Jamie Diamond. Um, should we pop over to Tuna?

>> Yeah. What's in Uh, Tuna says you're >> But first, let me tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce

Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell in seconds online, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents,

baby.

>> That's right. Tuna says, "Your soul is out of balance because you have fallen out of touch with your consumer demographic. Pay more attention to your

demographic. Pay more attention to your personalized ads. Let them flow through

personalized ads. Let them flow through you."

you." Yeah, >> pay attention. They do really tell you something about uh where your energy >> I've been getting I mean speaking of the CES consumer products. I've been getting

personalized ads for the board the the the smart game board but we had the founder on the show and I bought one.

Uh what give me a review. What did you think?

>> Haven't played it yet.

>> No.

>> So so here's a challenge.

>> Yeah. Uh we had less help around the house. Sure. Uh over the last two weeks

house. Sure. Uh over the last two weeks >> and board is designed for I think kids like I think it's like six and up. Like

it's not it's not like a under five game. And so trying to pull that out and

game. And so trying to pull that out and play when you're just going to have you know like a one or threeyear-old just like you know messing with it. It's

pretty much impossible. But I'm excited to play it hopefully this week. You guys

should play live during the show right here.

>> We should. Yeah. the the review from the four and a halfyear-old was A+. He loved

it.

>> Where'd you play?

>> We we we stuck to the more simple games, I think. Also, they're still rolling out

I think. Also, they're still rolling out some of the games. So, it ships and you get a number of pieces in bags and uh and some of the pieces that they ship to you, the games haven't actually

finished. They haven't finished coding

finished. They haven't finished coding them, I guess. Uh and so they're not live. But uh we played this sort of like

live. But uh we played this sort of like Space Invaders game that uh you put this like sort of triangle block on the screen and then when you're in this one

zone, you're basically firing at these like asteroids that come by and you break them up and you get this score.

And uh it was it was interesting. It was

like it was intuitive enough that the four-year-old could pick it up and actually get some points, but there were enough layered mechanics that if you

collected enough of this material, you could turn on this massive laser beam that would sort of like destroy everything. So, there was like I I found

everything. So, there was like I I found myself being like, "Oh, I know that there's a that it's possible to get 4,000 points even though we're averaging like 2500 points now. if I really max

this out and we were to play this at a high level, like the skill ceiling is actually sort of high, which was fun.

So, I thought that the game design was pretty good in that one. Then there were >> I love how you don't you don't every like every game, anything like that, you're just like, I need to max it out.

I need to max it out. Like even if you don't care about it, you care about maxing out the score.

>> Yeah, I I told I told this in Met I at one point I had the highest score in Robo Recall in the world. Okay. So,

apparently, so so Mike on our team says, "My three-year-old nephew loves the weird alien dog game." So, apparently this is Apparently it is suited for three-year-olds and I need to get into it.

>> Is Is the Is the weird alien dog one where it it comes in the house and you have to wash it off. That's the one, right?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz that one's really funny.

It's more like a Tamagotchi. Like you're

supposed to check on it every day and it comes in from the house. It's all dirty.

So, you wash it off, you soap it up, scrub it, and and you have all these different tools. So, you have a little

different tools. So, you have a little watering can, and you put the watering can on the screen of the board. Um, and

when you do it, it sort of showers the pet and then it washes it off. So, that

mechanic was really fun, too.

>> For board to sell a million units, Yeah.

>> they need like a super super viral individual game.

>> Yeah. Yeah,

>> I don't I don't think it's going to it won't be enough to have like a hand, you know, eight games that are all fun. Like

they need a breakout. This is a hits business, right? So they need they need

business, right? So they need they need uh >> like a katon.

>> Yeah. Like people are getting together specifically to play this game together.

Yeah. None of the games were at that level. All of the games felt like a

level. All of the games felt like a couple minutes and you're done. And the

mechanics, you could play them again.

there's some repeatability, but none of the games were so intense that also there just aren't that many pieces. Like

there's mo most of the games have like six pieces. There's 10 pieces. Uh, and

six pieces. There's 10 pieces. Uh, and

so if you had resources, I guess all those resources could be sort of digitally uh like counted, which might be nice actually because you can play a more complex game with more resources where uh you know, have you ever played

one of those board games where there's like 17 different resources and you have all these different tokens and counters and it's like it actually gets overwhelming and annoying. I don't know.

Um, but let me tell you about Vibe.co because maybe Vibe should advertise on streaming TV because Vibe.co Co is where DDC brands these startups. Oh yeah,

board. Um,

>> uh, AI companies advertise on streaming TV, pick channels, target audiences, and measure sales just like on Meta. Um,

that should be their next place to advertise. And, uh, and you and every

advertise. And, uh, and you and every and it's a lesson to everyone to get in touch with their consumer demographic and pay more attention to the personal ads. We need to let them float.

ads. We need to let them float.

>> Uh, did you want to talk about capital in the 22nd century?

>> Yes. Let's read Philip Traml's uh, post.

He says, "A week ago, Dar Cash and him uh Phil uh posted a fun essay using Thomas Pikid's capital in the 21st century as a lens through which to explore the possible impacts of AI on

inequality, as the Financial Times kindly put it. Uh that was all it was meant to be. The discussion has definitely become more intense than I'd expected. Uh this is my first time on X

expected. Uh this is my first time on X in any serious way. Welcome to the arena, brother. Get in. Buckle up. uh in

arena, brother. Get in. Buckle up. uh in

>> welcome to the dive bar.

>> Yeah, but it's been good to see so many people engaging with the essay and the topic. I can't complain about the

topic. I can't complain about the negative responses since I expect most of the positive responses were from people who did not read it at all and just like seeing another person another reason to tax the rich. That's funny. I

hadn't thought about that. I I think there's also people that gave it positive responses just because they like dash, right? And they're like, "Oh, cool. New Dark Cash thing. I'm a fan."

cool. New Dark Cash thing. I'm a fan."

Um but there is one point some people, mainly economists, have raised that I should acknowledge briefly also. I mean,

this was a I I don't think they wrote it knowing that there was going to be this whole like Roana, Peter Teal, uh Teddy Schluffer, like the whole like wealth packs thing that was going on in

California, and they just happened to drop something that read like a critique or a commentary. It was in the zeicist at the same time, but I don't think that was intentional. I think they were

was intentional. I think they were working on this piece for like probably months. It's like a very It's like a

months. It's like a very It's like a paper. Uh and so it's not like they were

paper. Uh and so it's not like they were like, "Oh, let's react to Roana's viral post and let's hammer this out." It

might have even dropped like the day before. Um, but he says he's responding

before. Um, but he says he's responding to the economists that uh put him in the truth zone or at least tried to. Uh, he

says and before I read this, let me tell you about Vanta automate compliance and security, the leading AI trust management platform. Please Vant. So,

management platform. Please Vant. So,

uh, they say the labor share could rise if humanprovided goods or and services are gross compliments for capital provided ones quote in our utility functions. What Nord House 2021 might

functions. What Nord House 2021 might call on the demand side. And I even if we build machines physically capable of producing everything people can what Nordouse might call on the supply side

this gross complimentarity at the utility level could be maintained indefinitely. Funnily enough on the list

indefinitely. Funnily enough on the list of law on the long list of blog posts I've been hoping to write for a long time. One is titled is labor a luxury?

time. One is titled is labor a luxury?

uh is uh is about uh how this possibility is underappreciated but then makes a case for why I think on balance it probably won't happen in the long run. Naturally, I'm especially

run. Naturally, I'm especially prioritizing that post for now. Uh as

for now, my only substantive reply on the question is a lame just give me a month. Uh but whether the case is wrong

month. Uh but whether the case is wrong or right, I promise it doesn't rely on a conceptual mistake like assuming that galaxies made of capital will have to get a higher share than labor because

they'll be large and productive at producing the incomplete set of goods they are used to produce. Maybe that

blog post should have come before this one, but I figured that in writing the current blog post exploring the case against long run gross com complimentarity on the on the demand

side would be a distracting rabbit hole because one, [ __ ] implicitly assumes gross substitution across the board already. Two, Nord House and related

already. Two, Nord House and related discussion have taken the position that advanced enough machines would probably yield gross substitution across the board. So that we need fast growing

board. So that we need fast growing all-purpose robots to drive the supply side singularity or gross substitution on the demand side so that we were satisfied with large quantities of IT consumption goods instead of shifting

our demand for nonIT goods for capital to accumulate rapidly but consumption to be bottlenecked by labor the price of consumption goods would have to rise relative to that of capital goods this is totally fine of course we're we're

imagining a very different fail future in all sorts of ways and I think it is a very far future but it is one interesting to think about Um >> maybe maybe it'd be helpful to kind of summarize people haven't read it uh the

kind of key fact. So so the thesis is basically like inequality is going to get worse because of AI like that's core thesis and maybe you need to figure out a way uh to

>> uh different uh methods of taxation to redistribute the wealth that is ultimately created if if uh people cannot effectively um increase their own

capital via their labor. So key factors um they talk about privatization of returns. So like very very hard to get

returns. So like very very hard to get exposure to XAI right now if you're just a normal person.

>> Two most people have their wealth in their home right and the issue is like home equity is not a good way to uh benefit from increasing returns to

capital that come from automation.

Right? So, if you have a home, I think they said if you have a home in Ohio and you have like $300,000 locked up in that, you're not going to get like you're not going to get some massive

incremental return from that. Um maybe

maybe somebody that is, you know, pursuing AI automation or or building factories or something. um they could like buy your home at a premium, but they could also just buy acres and acres

and acres of just like land somewhere else in the US at at uh far far less. Um

>> they talk about the end of international sort of catchup, which uh is basically that poor countries historically had a lot of cheap labor. They'd bring in capital. They would turn that uh and and

capital. They would turn that uh and and uh they would work.

>> Yeah. They'd create value and retain some of that value uh even though a lot of the investment was foreign. Um and

then uh and then the um the sort of they talk about like wealth transfer as the uh a lot of um uh more developed economies are uh sort of like aging

aging out effectively. So

>> uh we'll see we'll see but certainly sparked uh debate. I thought um I thought this post from uh Tomas uh Barur

was interesting. This was sort of

was interesting. This was sort of reaction to the post um Uh Tomas says both Daresh and his critics imagine an absurd world think of the future they argue about political economy doesn't

change rapidly even as the speed of history increases in the literal sense that the speed of thought of the actors who produce history will be the thousands of time will be thousands of times faster not to mention way smarter

these are agents to whom we've seen uh who we seem like toddlers walking in slow motion it is complete insanity to expect your openi stock certificates to be worth anything in this world even if

it isn't if if it is compatible with human survival. So many can't contend

human survival. So many can't contend with the scope of what they project.

They can't hold in their mind that things are allowed to be different. So

we get bizarre arguments about nonsense.

Own a galaxy. What does this mean for a human to own a galaxy in an economy operated by minds running thousands to millions of times faster than ours?

Children. What sort of children? Copies

of your brain state. Are you even allowing yourself to think about the level of bizarness required? because uh

uh these are table stakes and even they will be economically obsolete curiosities by the time they're created.

Things will be much weirder than we can possibly comprehend. How often have

possibly comprehend. How often have property rights been reset throughout history? How quickly will history move

history? How quickly will history move in the transition period? Why shouldn't

it trample on your stock certificates if not the air you breathe? But

institutions are surprisingly robust.

Maybe they are. How long have they existed in their current form? How fast

will history be moving? Exactly. Suppose

OpenAI aligns AI, whatever that means.

Will it serve the interests of the US government, the CCP? Will they align it to a humanity weighted by wealth, to open AI stockholders, to SAMA, to the codery of engineers who may as well be

AIS who actually know uh WTF is going on, to the coding agent who implements it, tax policy, question mark. Truly the

important question. What does it mean to be a human principle in this world? How

robust are these institutions? How

secure is the human mind? Extremely

insecure given how easy humans are to scam. There's going to be a lot of

scam. There's going to be a lot of incentive to break your mind if you own checknotes a whole galaxy. Oh, you will have an a a a little AI nanny to defend

you now. Wow, isn't that nice? Please

you now. Wow, isn't that nice? Please

return to the beginning of the paragraph. Uh, a human owning galaxies.

paragraph. Uh, a human owning galaxies.

That's bad space opera. Treat the future with the respect it deserves. this

scenario is not even close to science fictional enough to happen. So anyways,

uh I guess push back here generally like hey even in the scenario that you lay out things could get so crazy that we won't have any

>> the institutions just break the way that the world currently works breaks. Um uh

the the thing with the thing with um I was thinking about with uh if you own a bunch of open AI shares in

>> uh in this sort of fast takeoff scenario is this you know to to maybe there's a world where you could pay for things with open AAI shares right but is a

super intelligence going to say oh oh yes I would like to buy some open AAI shares right or would they >> buy them all >> corners the market >> buys them all or just rebuild, you know,

effectively just re, you know, so so uh this I I think it's uh in any type of these in any type of like fast takeoff scenario, how do you actually um it's

hard to have uh I I think I think the uh I'm I I I love, you know, reading uh I I love reading this essay. I'd like to see more of them, but it's so difficult to

any scenario you can imagine. there 50.

There's an infinite number of parallel realities where none of the same ground rules apply.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I wonder the uh uh the the 22nd century thing is is it does I mean you keep you keep coming back to like this idea of fast takeoff and it feels

like even in some sort of like slow progress like if you just extrapolate like the default trend lines and nothing really changes like you still see a lot of these effects happen with tech companies becoming more pop more more

powerful and the owners of capital becoming more powerful. Um Ben Thompson had an interesting an interesting uh interpretation of this saying that um uh

he said this gets at what I found the most frustrating uh what was most frustrating about Patel and Treml's uh Traml's point of view. The core

assumption undergirling their argument was also about the human condition. It

just happened to be negative. And uh and he basically said that uh like you have to imagine a world where humans remain the same and that they are still like

bothered by wealth inequality because in the scenario there's abundance and there's enough like like you know robots can just create everything. So you have like unlimited you know everything you

could possibly want from a consumption perspective but you're still bothered by the fact that like that guy owns 10,000 galaxies and I only own 1,000 galaxies.

>> Yeah. It's not right.

>> And that Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't feel balanced. And that's and and it's odd

balanced. And that's and and it's odd because you have to think about this world where okay, you own galaxies that are hundreds of thousands of years apart and so you it takes you a million years to get there and it's like and maybe

you're still bothered by that. Like it

would be funny if we if we discovered aliens that were just extremely rich.

Like would that make us all worse off?

Like would would would Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos go to bed sadder if they found aliens like a you know a million lighty years away?

>> Like your size is not size.

>> Yeah. We're just like yeah we actually we actually sitting on an an entire planet of diamond and we're we're worth quadrillions of dollars. Everyone here

is worth quadrillions of dollars. You

guys are nowhere near us in terms of wealth. Um would that actually bother

wealth. Um would that actually bother you or would you just be like ah it's okay those aliens that are over there. I

can't even get to them. It doesn't

affect me. Like how much is it how much is wealth inequality a direct focus on like the keeping up with the Joneses like the neighbor effect the direct mimetics of like the person that you see

as your as your equal. Um but uh I don't know but he Ben Thompson kind of returns to this this idea that you you have to assume that that that something about

the human condition holds where humans are upset by wealth inequality but they don't value other humans or the work of other humans or the creativity of other

humans and they don't see any value in that. And so, uh, because he he's he's

that. And so, uh, because he he's he's making the point that, um, uh, he he he quotes Louis CK in, uh, in an October 2008 appearance of Late Night with

Conan. Uh, and he says, uh, everything

Conan. Uh, and he says, uh, everything is amazing right now, and nobody's happy. He says, "You you've almost

happy. He says, "You you've almost certainly seen this clip, but if not, it's worth watching. Um, Louis CK focuses on three incredible technological Yeah, let me let me send

it to the team." Um, and see if we can drop this. Um, so, uh, he says, uh,

drop this. Um, so, uh, he says, uh, Louis CK focuses on three incredible technological innovations and how quickly we took them for granted.

Smartphones, internet access on planes, and the act of flying itself. It's

certainly a sentiment I can relate to.

In just the last 72 hours, I have chafed at slow airplane Wi-Fi, complained about jet lag from having literally traversed the globe. He went to Taiwan and back.

the globe. He went to Taiwan and back.

uh and gotten frustrated at an iPhone bug that is sapping my battery. It is

also terrible until I remember I have access to everything, anything, everywhere uh can be anywhere, any time.

And oh yeah, I can achieve both simultaneously.

If anything, you can make the case that technological innovations by virtue of conferring their benefits on everybody has actually had the perverse effect of making everyone feel worse off. That's a

very very weird concept but I I I feel it as well. Let's watch this Louis CK clip.

>> We may be going back to that by the way.

But uh >> in a way good because when I read things like the foundations of capitalism are shattering I'm like maybe we need that.

Maybe we need some time where we're walking around with a donkey with pots clanging on the sides.

>> You think that would just bring us back to reality?

>> Yeah. Because everything is amazing right now and nobody's happy. Like in my lifetime, the changes in the world have been incredible. When I was a kid, we

been incredible. When I was a kid, we had a rotary phone. We had a phone that you had to stand next to and you had to dial it.

>> Yes.

>> You you realize how primitive you're making sparks >> in a phone. And you actually would hate people with zeros in their numbers cuz it was more like, "Oh, this guy's got

two zeros. Screw that guy. Why do I want

two zeros. Screw that guy. Why do I want to?"

to?" >> And then if if they called and you weren't home, the phone would just ring lonely by itself.

And then if you wanted money, you had to go in the bank for when it was open for like 3 hours to stand in line, write yourself a check like an idiot.

>> And then when you ran out of money, you just go, "Well, I can't do any more things now."

things now." >> I can't do any more things. That's it.

Yeah, >> that was it. And even if you had a credit card, they the guy go gh and he'd bring out this whole shunk shunk and he'd write you have to call the president to see if you had any money.

>> It's all true, kids. You had to call the president. Yeah, it was ridiculous.

president. Yeah, it was ridiculous.

>> Yes.

>> Do you feel that we now in the 21st century, we take technology for granted?

>> Well, yeah, cuz now we live in in an amazing amazing world and it's wasted on the on the crappiest generation of just spoiled idiots that don't care because this is what people are like now. They

got their phone. They're like, "Uh, it won't Give it a second. Give it's going to space.

>> Can you give it a second to get back from space?

Is the speed of light true?

>> I was on a I was on an airplane and there was internet, high-speed internet on the airplane. That's the newest thing that I know exists. And I'm sitting on the plane and they go, "Open up your laptop. You can go on the internet." And

laptop. You can go on the internet." And

it's fast and I'm watching YouTube clips. It's I'm in an airplane.

clips. It's I'm in an airplane.

>> 2008 on a TV and they apologize. The

internet's not working. The guy next to me goes, "This is bull.

like how quickly the world owes him something.

>> Yes.

>> He knew existed only 10 seconds ago.

>> Right. Right.

>> And on planes, >> flying is the worst one because people come back from flights and they tell you their story and it's like a horror story. It's they act like their flight

story. It's they act like their flight was like a cattle car in the ' 40s in Germany. That's how bad they make it

Germany. That's how bad they make it sound. They're like, "It was the worst

sound. They're like, "It was the worst day of my life."

>> First of all, we didn't board for 20 minutes.

>> And then we get on the plane and they made us sit there on the runway for 40 minutes. We had to sit there. Oh,

minutes. We had to sit there. Oh,

really? What happened next? Did you fly through the air incredibly like a bird?

Did you partake in the miracle of human flight? You non-contributing zero that

flight? You non-contributing zero that you got to fly. YOU'RE FLYING.

IT'S AMAZING.

Everybody on every plane should just constantly BE GOING, "OH MY GOD."

>> WOW.

>> Your flight.

>> He wants to bring back clapping.

Clapping on after land. Yeah.

>> All right. Pause it. Pause it. Yeah.

>> I did a uh This reminded me couple days ago.

>> Before you tell us this, let me tell you about Plaid. Plaid powers the apps you

about Plaid. Plaid powers the apps you use to spend, save, borrow, and invest, securely connecting bank accounts to move money, fight fraud, and improve lending now with AI.

>> Great stuff, John. Um,

>> couple days ago, uh, my my one and a half-year-old, uh, has not, uh, has not been sleeping super well.

>> You know, toddlers, they go through periods where they sleep well, then they stop sleeping well. And, um, with my three-year-old, uh, we hired a when he was going through a similar phase, we hired a sleep consultant. These are

people that just help your baby. It's

like a sleep coach for your baby and and and the parents or whatever.

>> And uh with my three-year-old, we hired somebody and they effectively, you know, it's effect the effective rate is like hundreds of dollars an hour, right?

Because there's some retainer and >> blah blah blah. Uh and it works really well. Like it it's a lifesaver.

well. Like it it's a lifesaver.

>> Uh but with the one and a half-year-old a few days ago, my wife just goes to an LLM and just like breaks down exactly like what's happening. That's the

answer. uh and it is effectively running calculations based on the child's age and their sleep patterns now and how to get them back on a better uh sleep

pattern and uh within 24 hours like the problem was totally solved like back to sleeping on the right schedule, napping on the right schedule like basically one-shoted it and I was just thinking

how uh you know you know >> OpenAI has gotten so much specifically Sam has gotten so much push back because uh he'll go out and say like we're going to solve you're going to have person you're going to have like a personal

tutor in your pocket and all this stuff and then people like you know hammer him because it's like well then we're doing Sora and we're doing you know adult entertainment and things like that

>> but uh it's actually like AI is actually already delivering on this sort of >> do you remember the Fallon clip that where that went viral where where Fallon asks him like are do you use Chad GBT to

parent your kid and he was like honestly like it feels weird to say it but yes and it's like that's exactly your experience was like it is it is helpful and uh yeah it is it is a weird thing

but it's it's this uh it's this when technology goes broad it becomes available to everyone um I was reflecting on on airplane travel over the break uh you know those pictures of

like back in 1965 planes used to be so nice and now you were like stuffed in the back like cattle you know these photos like we got to return to 1965 uh

planes um I ran the numbers and it and it turns out that the total amount of flights, the total amount of passenger flights like individual person gets on a plane, goes somewhere in the United

States uh in 1965 in total across everything is the same number almost exactly the same number as total first class flights in 2025. And so basically

anyone who could fly in 20 in in 1965 is now flying first class. And then you added there's 10 times as many non firstclass flights that are happening as

well. And so it's like you you basically

well. And so it's like you you basically actually kept that level of service. It

just became known as first class. But in

1965, even just getting on a plane was first class because it was really expensive. It got cheaper, but all those

expensive. It got cheaper, but all those all the rich people stayed in first class. And then and then you gave the

class. And then and then you gave the ability to fly at all to 10 times as many people and and and that just continues. And so but it's this weird

continues. And so but it's this weird thing because that doesn't feel satisfying because you see the people up in front of class and you're like, I want to be up there. Um, let me go back to Ben Thompson and close this out. But

first, let me tell you about Figma.

Figma make isn't your average VI coding tool. It lives in Figma, so outputs look

tool. It lives in Figma, so outputs look good, feel real, and stay connected to how teams build prototypes.

>> John, you always have this critique of um of the coding models and you're like, "Oh, they're not being used by everyone because the United app is so bad."

>> You always have this and then so there's this post. It's in the timeline, but

this post. It's in the timeline, but it's someone there say one of the things I love about United is how good their iOS app is.

>> Oh, no way.

>> Yeah. Cuz it it like it works well and they they're just like glazing it.

>> I I Yeah, I I talked to Rune about this as well because I brought that up when I was talking to him and he was like uh kind of stomped and then and then uh I talked to him again and he was like, "Actually, I think it's better than you think it is. I think it's actually

pretty good." Um and and so so I think

pretty good." Um and and so so I think that uh I think that you're you're right and it's a good point that like the software the quality of the software is increasing and I think I've probably

been unduly mean to the United app. It's

probably it's probably better than I'm giving it credit for. I'm probably just remembering bugs from years ago and I just have a bad taste in my mouth.

There there there's there is something that AI is not at least solving immediately which is just the business realities of where uh businesses uh have

walled gardens or adversarial business incentives. So I'll give you an example.

incentives. So I'll give you an example.

Uh Apple TV. It's a great product. I I

love the Apple TV. Plug it into your TV.

Works really well. Um are

>> you talking about the Apple TV?

>> The the physical device. Yeah.

>> On the Apple TV physical device. Yes.

we're going here is an app called Apple TV and they have set this to be the default. I didn't know this but you can

default. I didn't know this but you can actually change the button the home button on the Apple TV the Apple TV remote to go to the home screen which has all the icons. So if you want to

watch Netflix or HBO you can go there but by default it now ships with a the home button goes to the TV app which is a unifying layer over all of the

content. And so if you want to find

content. And so if you want to find sports or you want to find the latest Apple TV show or you want to find something that's on Peacock or Paramount Plus, that will be integrated in there.

And it's a great universal interface. At

least it should be a universal interface except Netflix said, "We're not participating. We want to be in our own

participating. We want to be in our own app." So you cannot find a Netflix show

app." So you cannot find a Netflix show in the TV app on the Apple TV box. And

that is something that like no amount of vibe coding, it's not a coding issue, it's a business model issue. It's

because Apple and Netflix are in competition and so they have decided not to do a deal and that results in a worse user experience but better like profits for both companies and it's the rational thing for them to do and there's no

amount of like clawed code that can solve for that. So my take now has evolved to be that >> why don't you move the goalpost?

>> I will move the goalpost.

>> Move the goalpost. I got to move the ball because the the AI uh AI coding models until they can solve fundamental

business competition issues with a with a single prompt uh it will not satisfy my AGI. I need

Netflix in my Apple TV app and then it will be AGI. Then it will be AGI because it's not it's not a coding problem. It's

a business model problem. business model

have an opportunity to move the goalpost back back where they started.

>> Business model problems are are enduring and Ben Thompson makes the case that uh that that that there are human conditions there are human elements that will be enduring uh even even in a post

software only singularity.

>> I had some uh there was a post I put in from Samuel Hammond over at FAI. He

said, "I was just asked about my current views on AI takeoff speeds, both in the sense of GDP economic effects and the time gap between AGI and ASI given I believe we'll get fully automated AI R&D

by 2029." He said, "Here's my response

by 2029." He said, "Here's my response via quick email reply." Uh, re GDP, I think we'll get a higher trend TFP level growth rate as past general purpose technologies. This will be a new higher

technologies. This will be a new higher growth regime, 5 to 10%, but not uh h uh hyperbolic exponential growth. Not with

the Elon triple digit.

>> Yeah.

>> Real output will still be bottlenecked by infrastructure, legal and regulatory regimes, supply chains, human in the loop. Uh we will still see a digi fume

loop. Uh we will still see a digi fume software singularity but this will feel more disinflationary than anything i.e.

mostly captured in consumer surplus. A

lot of knowledge work will be outright automated but a lot will still remain given human rents, social relationships, celebrity status and demand side factors. people liking other people. Uh

factors. people liking other people. Uh

science >> the big question for me this year you know uh Anthropic is is you know they have created the dropin software engineer right with cloud code it's

clearly working um but uh and it's changing that industry today you know their goal for 2026 is clearly like the drop in replacement like what is the cloud code for every other industry and

it'll be very interesting to see if we see a uh if we see progress in AI SDRs because that historically has been steak dinners wine relationships like getting to know people. Uh, and it's

been a more much more human role that hasn't been verifiable in some, you know, oh, I, you know, you checked in this code, it worked, so you're so you get paid.

>> It's not just hitting the right uh, key strokes in the right order.

>> Yeah. Any good SDR will tell you like it's not actually about the emails that you send. That's just one piece of the

you send. That's just one piece of the proposal. Anyway,

proposal. Anyway, >> so he says science and R&D will speed up dramatically, but these also will have delayed GDP effects given production cycles and the fact that a lot of fast diffusing beneficial science greatly

improves quality of life, i.e. GLP1s

without necessarily boosting GDP. I

think this interim TFP growth regime will last until the mid late 2030s before entering another even higher growth regime greater than 10% as robotics matures and reaches scale

production volumes. fully automated

production volumes. fully automated factories and robots that can themselves build the factories that build other robots will have much more tangible effects on economic output. This is also

when you start to see the bombl effects start uh forcing adoption in areas that may otherwise be resistant. uh eg we get roocop and robo nurses because the human

cops and and nurses become prohibitively expensive in comparison and uh he goes uh on to some other stuff but thought that was uh just kind of relevant on um

from from a timeline standpoint when you're trying to understand uh capital in the 22nd century.

>> Let me tell you about Gemini 3 Pro, Google's most intelligent model yet.

State-of-the-art reasoning, next level vibe coding, and deep multimodal understanding. Uh to close out what Ben

understanding. Uh to close out what Ben Thompson is talking about here, he says when he was a child growing up in a small town in W in Wisconsin, he said, "I had some sort I had some sort of

vague sense that there were rich people in the world, but my perspective uh but from my perspective, taking my first airplane flight around the age of 10 was a source of great wonder. And it even provided a sense of status. After all,

many of my friends had never flown at all. That was the comparison that

all. That was the comparison that mattered to me. Social media or more accurately user generated content feeds which are increasingly not social at all has completely changed this dynamic. All

I or anyone needs to do is open Instagram to see beautiful people on private jets or on beaches or at fancy restaurants living a life that seems dramatically better than one's dull experience in the suburbs or a cramped apartment. Never mind that this mean

apartment. Never mind that this mean that the means of achieving that insight is a level of technological wealth that would have been incomp incomprehensible to the richest person in the world 50 years ago. To put it another way, what

years ago. To put it another way, what Louis CK identified in this clip was the extent to which human happiness is a relative versus an absolute phenomenon.

What we care about is how much we have is not how much we have, but how we compare. That by extension is what

compare. That by extension is what drives the technological paradox I noted above. More capabilities more broadly

above. More capabilities more broadly distributed has tremendously enriched the world on an absolute basis. But the

end result, however, has been the dramatic expansion of our comparison set, making us feel more emiserated than ever. If we discover the trillionaire

ever. If we discover the trillionaire quadrillionaire aliens, we're all done.

We're going to be miserable. It's going

to be brutal. It's just like, oh, there's an alien out there with a with a two mile long yacht and a and a plane that holds 700.

>> Their yacht is actually an asteroid.

>> Yeah.

>> He has so much crumb hearts.

>> Yeah. And and he has piles of crumb hearts everywhere. Uh we'd be truly

hearts everywhere. Uh we'd be truly truly honored.

>> He never wears the same pair of chrome jeans twice.

>> Never. Never.

>> Uh one one more post from uh Boaz Barak.

Uh he's over at um probably mispronouncing his name. He's over at OpenAI. He wrote a post on Less Wrong on

OpenAI. He wrote a post on Less Wrong on uh on New Year's Eve.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh he said uh >> what's that?

>> It's I mean a White Pel title certainly.

>> Yeah. The the title of the essay is you will be okay. He said, "Seeing this post, which is another post uh on less wrong and its comments made me a bit concerned for young people around this community, I thought I would write I would try to write down why I believe

most folks who read and write here and are generally smart, caring, and knowledgeable will be okay. I agree that our society often is underprepared for tail risks. As a general planner, you

tail risks. As a general planner, you should be worrying about potential catastrophes even if their probability is small. However, as an individual, if

is small. However, as an individual, if there is a certain probability X of doom that is beyond your control, it is best to focus on the 1x fraction of the probability uh space that you control rather than constantly worrying about

it. A generation of Americans and

it. A generation of Americans and Russians grew up under a non-trivial probability of total nuclear war and they still went about their lives even when we do have some control over possibility of very bad outcomes. It's

it is best to follow some common sense best practices, but then put that out of your mind. I do not want to engage here

your mind. I do not want to engage here in the usual debate of P doom. But just

as it makes absolute sense for companies and societies to worry about it as long as this probability is bounded away from zero, so it makes sense for individuals to spend most of their time not worrying

about it as long as as it is bounded away from one. Even if it is your job to push this probability down, it is best not to spend all of your time worrying about it. Both for your mental health

about it. Both for your mental health and for doing it well. I want to recognize that doom or not, AI will bring a lot of change very fast. It is

quite possible that by some metrics, we will see centuries of progress compressed into decades. My own

expectation is that as we have seen so far, progress will be both continuous and jagged. Both AI capabilities and its

and jagged. Both AI capabilities and its diffusion will continue to grow, but at different rates in different domains. I

believe that because of this continuous progress, neither AGI nor ASI will be discreet points in time. Rather, just

like we call recessions after we are already in them, we will probably decide on the AGI moment retrospectively six months or a year after it had already happened. I also believe that because of

happened. I also believe that because of this jaggedness, humans and especially smart and caring ones would be needed for at least several decades if not more. Let's go. It is not a it is a

more. Let's go. It is not a it is a marathon, not a sprint. Again, this like this you have two months to escape the permanent two years. It's it's it's

really uh you know even if you believe that try not to operate on that like trying to be trying to become >> rich in in two months

>> is going to make you do things that are not super productive not super enduring >> and I think that young people just need to >> get that concept out of their head and

still you don't need to be thinking on don't try to think on a 10 20 30 year time horizon. maybe like a legacy career, right? Which is like I'm going to be a lawyer and I'm going to

get a 5% raise every year until I retire, but think on three five year time horizons and don't have this stupid

uh sense of of urgency and this sort of uh insane scarcity mindset. I just I just don't think uh you're going to do very good work. Um he continues, "People have many justifiable fears about AI

beyond literal doom. I cannot fully imagine the way AI will change the world economically, socially, politically and physically. However, I expect that like

physically. However, I expect that like the industrial revolution, even after this change, there will be no consensus if it was good or bad. Uh this is uh I

was thinking here people have been uh kind of asking like, hey, why why are we trying to automate everyone's jobs?

>> You know, people are like, I actually like I know I was complaining about my email job, but I like that I go and I write some emails and I get paid. and I

go home. Uh, do we really need to automate this? Um, uh, continuing, "Us

automate this? Um, uh, continuing, "Us human beings have an impressive dynamic range. We can live in the worst

range. We can live in the worst conditions and complain about the best conditions. It is possible we will c

conditions. It is possible we will c cure diseases and poverty, and yet people will still long for the good old days of the 2020s where young people had the thrill of fending for themselves before guaranteed income and housing

ruined it." Nothing like the thrill.

ruined it." Nothing like the thrill.

You've had that thrill in the Tenderloin back in the day.

>> Yeah, for sure.

>> On a on a YC budget. I'm just thinking if they if they really do uh cure cancer with all this AI, it's just it's so over for the gravediggers. Yep.

>> For the morticians, the coroners. Anyone

in the death economy is just going to be displaced immediately.

>> Cooked.

>> They're out of a job. They'll have to find something new to do. But I I I'm I'm optimistic that they will find a new new job. Let me tell you about

new job. Let me tell you about Apploving. Profitable advertising made

Apploving. Profitable advertising made easy with Axon.ai.

Get access to over 1 billion daily active users and grow your business today. Uh, speaking of DIUS, do you

today. Uh, speaking of DIUS, do you think OpenAI is going to buy Pinterest?

>> Where is this coming from?

>> Came from the information. They they

they made a list of uh predictions that we went through a number of predictions yesterday on the show. Um, this was just one of them, but it seemed like it hit a nerve because people did sort of report

on it like it was a rumor or like it was some leaked document. It was just a prediction. Uh, but do you think that

prediction. Uh, but do you think that that would make sense? this idea that uh you know Sora was sort of you know supposed to be a social network. It's

big.

venue in 2025.

Okay. I I just I just don't I just don't know what they're really I just don't know what they're really buying here. Um

but the CEO's name is Bill Ready. So the

nominative determinism would be that he's ready ready to do a deal. So that

kind of in takes me from you know uh one to 2%. And the founder Ben Silver

to 2%. And the founder Ben Silver Sberman is and Silver's been mooning and they have similar similar names. So

maybe Pinterest will moon. This is this is the level of announce you can only get here folks.

>> Uh let's go through uh this written house research post about uh OpenAI's business. Um but first let me tell you

business. Um but first let me tell you about Graphite uh code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software

faster. Um, so, uh, Alex Caneritz sat

faster. Um, so, uh, Alex Caneritz sat down with Sam Alman December 18th right before the break. Uh, he says he had a long substantive conversation with Sam Alman about openi strategic position,

its plan to build memory into chatbt which is already ongoing. It's

enterprise play compute AI devices and whether AGI is still a useful term.

Rittenhouse's work uh, research breaks it down. It says uh, the biggest

it down. It says uh, the biggest takeaway from this very good interview was Altman's outline uh, for how open AAI's financial model could eventually work. OpenAI Enterprise is growing

work. OpenAI Enterprise is growing faster than consumer companies do not want OpenAI to train on their prompts.

So >> apparently apparently right right when right right when we said you will be okay the stream went down.

>> No way.

Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> Um >> technology is like n actually you're not >> you're cooked. Um OpenAI enterprise growth growth is constrained by lack of compute capacity. Enterprises coming to

compute capacity. Enterprises coming to OpenAI asking for custom APIs and ability to process trillions of tokens which OpenAI can't provide yet. Rapid

growth in inference revenues from these enterprises at a stable to improving gross margin percent will eventually drive inference gross profit dollars large enough to fund OpenAI's training investments. OpenAI could curb training

investments. OpenAI could curb training investments today and reduce cash burn, but training investments should translate to more inference revenue down the line. If OpenAI is not seeing

the line. If OpenAI is not seeing overwhelming inference demand, there is flexibility in their $1.4 4 trillion of commitments. Have to think a good

commitments. Have to think a good portion of these are earmarked for training runs. Um 1.4 trillion of

training runs. Um 1.4 trillion of commitments takes place over a number of years. We kind of knew this, but uh it

years. We kind of knew this, but uh it feels like Sam's maybe uh just signaling to the market that there is more flexibility in the spending commitments than maybe people initially thought. And

that was sort of always uh always pencled in because there was a gradient from like this is a press release, this is a handshake deal, this is still being papered, this is contingent on milestones or there's some flexibility

here. But it but it kind of got all

here. But it but it kind of got all lumped together and mentally people were just putting it on uh OpenAI's balance sheet as liability when in fact there was some flexibility there all along. Um

while the 1.4 4 trillion of spending commitments is of course absurd and uh almost surely was intended to position OpenAI as too big to fail. I feel like there's much more logic to their capital planning process than I previously

thought after watching this interview.

That's great. What a comeback. I mean,

people were really uh really flustered by Sam's appearance on uh BG2. It feels

like his appearance on the big technology podcast is sort of a uh return to form, resetting of the narrative. Um and uh and he and he

narrative. Um and uh and he and he clearly like thought about how to peel back the onion of the 1.4 trillion commitment. So Ridden House closes by

commitment. So Ridden House closes by saying if you assume they raise $75 billion in one last private round, 25% haircut to the rumored uh 100 billion

and another 75 billion in an IPO. That's

so much money. Uh the model probably pencils out where they have enough capital to bridge until they reach cash flow positive. So um they can do it.

flow positive. So um they can do it.

they can get out and uh and there is enough uh um so I don't know Nathan uh wasn't a huge fan. He said he found the pod a little too spoonfed and not very info dense.

>> Interesting. Um I don't know I I'll I'll have to give it a listen. But first I will have to tell you about linear.

Linear is the system for modern software development. Linear is a purpose-built

development. Linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building products.

Um >> the product planning tool behind OpenAI.

>> Oh yeah.

>> Uh should we take it over to Jaco? Yeah,

Joo.

>> Joo, one of the greatest podcast capitalists maybe, right? Apparently, uh

I didn't even know he had this brand, Origin, uh Brazilian jiu-jitsu made gear.

>> Uh apparently somebody uh is a somebody in the government is a is a Joo supporter because they threw Maduro uh in some Origin uh looking sharp. Got him

out of the Nike tech. It's called origin built by freedom hoodie on Maduro.

>> We got to get Maduro and some TVPN merch.

>> I think we absolutely do not have to do that.

>> Yeah, >> that's ridiculous.

>> Uh but yeah, these into these photos. Uh there's a whole bunch of of I guess he was transferred and he made the cover of the Wall Street Journal. Again,

>> it was interesting.

>> Says I am. He says he's innocent. So,

you know, innocent until proven guilt. I

think Marco Rubio was talking about how they don't have to pay out the reward now because they just got them themselves. We of course uh

themselves. We of course uh >> I feel like we deserve a small slice for promoting the reward.

>> We did we did uh we did do a promoted post for uh the capture Maduro back in Q1 of last year.

>> Um but uh but yeah, I I ultimately think uh >> uh the Delta gets all the credit. Maybe

the DEA.

>> They do. ousted Venezuelan President Nicholas Maduro pleaded not guilty to drug trafficking charges during his arraignment in US federal court in New York City on Monday, defiantly telling a

judge that he was still the head of his nation despite being whisked away by US forces over the weekend. "I am

innocent," he said. "I am not guilty. I

am a decent man. I am still the president of my country," he said through a Spanish interpreter, adding that he was a prisoner of war and had been captured from his home in Kacus.

Maduro's top lieutenant, Deli Rodriguez, was sworn in as Venezuela's acting president Monday. And Deli Rodriguez is

president Monday. And Deli Rodriguez is um is picked by Maduro, so should be a Maduro ally. Um but there's been back

Maduro ally. Um but there's been back and forth on how much she'll be cooperating with the United States. Uh

security officers were out in force in Crocus running checkpoints and patrolling neighborhoods to prevent protests in Manhattan. Monday. Monday's

hearing kicked off a nearly unprecedented legal battle over a foreign leader in a US court. The arrest

of a head of state presents challenges for both prosecutors and the defense.

The two sides could spend years sparring over the legality of Maduro's arrest and charges before he goes to trial. So,

>> chat says Maduro uses perplexity because of Ronaldo, >> not because of uh >> somebody's got sponsorship. Yeah, maybe

maybe the Louiswis Hamilton >> the Louisw Hamilton helmet sponsorship.

Honestly, massive props to Perplexity.

That is a remarkable one because apparently the the drivers can sell the stickers on their helmet themselves or something like that. And so when you watch Lewis Hamilton's helmet cam, he

has a Perplexi logo right on his helmet that I guess he was able to sell directly and it didn't go through the team or something. So he gets to keep all of that money or something.

>> That's a crazy >> It seemed like an interesting interesting >> he had he had some leverage there. I

wonder the chat is going off saying good. You know the joy. Do you think

good. You know the joy. Do you think Maduro as looking in the mirror uh from the clink >> got got captured by US Delta Force.

Good.

>> Good. Wearing his origin.

>> Arrested. Arrested on drug trafficking charges. Good. More inspiration to grind

charges. Good. More inspiration to grind harder.

>> Time to lock in more. More. It's an

opportunity to learn about the US legal system. You're going to learn a lot.

system. You're going to learn a lot.

>> Anyway, bin.ai the number one AI agent for customer service. If you want AI to handle customer support, go to fin.ai.

Um, we have a surprise guest joining us, uh, Casey Newton from Platformer, dug into the whistleblower, the Reddit, uh, the AI food delivery story. We're having

him join the show. We're very excited to be joined by Casey. How are you doing, Casey?

>> Welcome.

>> Welcome to the show.

>> Hey, guys. Long time. First time. Nice

to see you.

>> Thanks so much for hopping on short notice.

>> What a moment. So great to have you.

absolute scoop of the century.

Incredible story. Uh I was riveted reading it. Uh thank you so much for the

reading it. Uh thank you so much for the hard work.

>> Going to this the scoop hall of fame.

>> Scoop hall of fame. I think I don't even know if this is a scoop. This is more investigative journalism cuz this peeling back onion. I don't know. It was

great. But uh but how did you did you see this go out on social media? Were

you on Reddit? Like how did you encounter this story first?

>> That's exactly right. Believe it or not, I first saw the screenshot on threads with somebody saying like, "Look how evil the food delivery companies are."

And, you know, I was like a few days from having to come back and write a column again, and I thought, "Hey, maybe this turns into a scoop for me." So, I was super bummed when the whole thing fell apart. But then it was actually my

fell apart. But then it was actually my boyfriend who said people might actually be more interested to know about how the whole thing fell apart. I think he was right about that.

>> So, so what was the process like to actually dig into it? What was your interpretation? Because we read the

interpretation? Because we read the Reddit post. I saw the screenshot and I

Reddit post. I saw the screenshot and I was kind of like and people were going back and forth, is it AI generated? Blah

blah blah. It didn't feel AI generated to me, but there were some red flags in there like being drunk at a library seemed weird and and he said something there was some other element in there

that was like very very odd to me. I

forget exactly what he said, but uh >> some people are like pointing out the M dashes that were in there. And you know, this is one of those where like the moment that that everyone knows it's a hoax, everybody knew it was a hoax from

the first word. You know what I mean?

Like everybody figured it out before I did, but that that's fine. The truth is I didn't figure it out right away. I did

think it seemed plausible. Like we both know that Uber and uh Door Dash have been caught doing some pretty shady things over the years. So, I thought it was at worst it was at least worth messaging the guy and seeing what he could tell me about it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Uh

>> wait, so did you message him on Reddit?

>> I did. And I sort of assumed that, you know, by that point the post had like I don't know 80,000 up votes. I thought

there's no way I'm ever going to hear back from this guy. but instead he messages me back within 9 minutes which again in retrospect was probably a tell that maybe there was something fishy going on here. But yeah, he was happy to

get on Signal. He did sort of strangely only give one or two word answers. Like

I was expecting him to, you know, be a little bit more verbose based on the post. Again, another red flag in

post. Again, another red flag in retrospect. But, you know, I've talked

retrospect. But, you know, I've talked to a lot of sources like this over the years and initially a lot of them are pretty skittish. They don't know you.

pretty skittish. They don't know you.

They don't have any reason to trust you.

You kind of have to build up that trust over time. Uh but, you know, with with

over time. Uh but, you know, with with Sohan Periq. He came on and he was just

Sohan Periq. He came on and he was just like, >> "Yeah, I worked for five companies at once." Wasn't skittish at all.

once." Wasn't skittish at all.

Immediately immediately admitted to uh doing something really bad.

>> It was a very odd moment. Yeah. the the

thing that stuck out to me in here was uh he he claims that uh that the that the speed up fee uh what is it is psychological value ad but then so he

says it does nothing to speed you up but then in the next paragraph he says that that in fact they're slowing down all the other orders which again so you are getting so you are getting a speed up so it's not logic it wasn't logically

consistent to me which was a little odd that was more of a red flag than any of like the it's an AI generated text and I want your reaction to this Because if you were a whistleblower and you and you're writing something and you're

worried that your boss is going to be able to clock your writing style, it doesn't seem crazy to me to pass your your testimony through ChatGpt and just

say, "Hey, rewrite this like it's, you know, GPT5 because then yes, it will have m dashes. Yes, it will have telltale AI generated things, but the points will stand, the facts will stand,

and then you'll be more anonymized." So,

do you think there's anything to that?

Sure. I mean, this is a lot of what the job is now of being a reporter, particularly in tech where we're working with really savvy companies, you know, like I've reported a lot about Meta.

They have former CIA agents over there who are doing uh, you know, investigations of leaks like this. So,

we have to spend a lot of our time trying to do OBSSE with our sources. So,

yeah, if the source said, "Hey, I might run this through an LLM to sort of take the stink of me off it," I would say go for it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So,

>> okay. So you message this guy, he responds, he starts sending you proof.

What kind of proof is he sharing? How

did you process that?

>> Yeah. So the first thing that you know I'm obviously I want to know his name.

He's not comfortable sharing that at first. He says, um, I could send you an

first. He says, um, I could send you an employee badge with my face and name blurred out. And, you know, in in this

blurred out. And, you know, in in this line of work, it's you kind of just want to keep them talking, right? Like see

what they'll share. It'll all sort of add up to something over time. So I

said, "Sure, let's see it." He sends over a badge. Uh I don't know if you're able to sort of show it on the screen. I

have a new funny story about it, but basically it says that, you know, it's an Uber Eats badge. Um I learned today from a reporter at NBC News that she had sent him her employee badge and he

appears to have used that as the basis for this and said, "Transformed this image into an Uber Eats badge." I've now seen her original image and he literally just must have put it in Nano Banana and

said, "Turn this into Uber Eats." Yeah,

that's super interesting because I was looking at the actual image being like, are there any telltale signs? I'm like

pretty good at clocking little things, but Nano Banana really is good at like leaving enough of the original image that you don't get any of those weird >> feel things to make it look like an iPhone photo anyways.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Totally. The the tell, by the way, I've heard from some uh former Uber folks today, and the tell that they wanted me to know is that there are not actually Uber Eats >> bad. That's the other thing I was going

>> bad. That's the other thing I was going to say. You just It's Uber. It's it's

to say. You just It's Uber. It's it's

not a separate company. Why would why would you have a separate >> is a little bit of a >> badge and and then you got and then there was some internal document that you got as well. What was up with that?

>> Yeah. So, this honestly wound up being the most interesting thing to me was that I had said, look, is there anything you could do to corroborate your story?

And he was like, well, I'm sort of uncomfortable with that, but let me see what I can do. He disappears for a full day and then comes back the following morning. This is Sunday morning. And

morning. This is Sunday morning. And

says, does this work? And it's an 18page document that presents itself as a sort of highly technical overview of how they built the system that sort of uh takes

advantage of drivers desperation.

>> Mhm. Okay. So, what's the who what's your theory on who this person is?

What's the point?

Because in some ways in some ways like I feel like Door Dash was the loser here because I feel like Door Dash has a reputation for just like being incredible ruthless operators and so

people are just like oh this is Door Dash for sure and then and then and then they had to come out and defend themselves and say we don't even use this language. There's probably like

this language. There's probably like some fourth tier like the fourth player in the ecosystem that we don't even know is like languishing at like $400 million market cap and they're like we we're

trying to be as ruthless as them man like trust us like our profit's going to be great next quarter and we're like no one thinks it's you. No one thinks.

>> Yeah. I just I just don't understand the point. Is this is this could be a short

point. Is this is this could be a short seller? Could be a disgruntled driver.

seller? Could be a disgruntled driver.

Did you get any any any interest or any ideas of what this could be? Like why

are people doing this? So I mean again like this guy like his his answers are so short that I never really got any sense of motivation. I you know I do think like this was over the holiday break. I do think that there's a chance

break. I do think that there's a chance that this is like a bore teenager you know in in a basement type of thing. But

I think you know one thing I haven't done and I would encourage people to do is like were there any poly market or couchy trades around the time of this post dropping like because it would be crazy to me if somebody was trying to

like tank the Uber or door uh Door Dash market cap and you know make a few bucks. Okay. Yeah. I mean, they could do

bucks. Okay. Yeah. I mean, they could do that in the public markets or or I guess in prediction markets or or or maybe because sometimes there's like a dedicated prediction market for this specific thing like is it real or not and then they could be trading that because they know it's fake or

something. Um what what what do you

something. Um what what what do you think the uh the actual platform should have done? I mean Door Dash was very

have done? I mean Door Dash was very they they did the founder comms, they did the corporate coms, they did a they did a number of things. Do you think they handled it well? Is there something that they should be doing with journalists when something like this

happens to like not put their finger on the scale too much but be open with you?

Like how should they respond?

>> I think they did the right thing. They

they both came forward and they just said like this is categorically false.

You know the Uber com said like this is a fake document. You know they really just sort of like went all in. They put

their credibility on the line and you know often corporate comms are a lot more measured but with this one they were just very confident in knowing that this did not come from them and so there was no reason not to just lead with

that. Yeah. Yeah. Uh where else are you

that. Yeah. Yeah. Uh where else are you seeing uh interesting like AI fake news stories pop up? I've been there's this interesting irony that I mean I don't know where you stand on like the water

issue but it feels like the electricity issue is something that people should be talking about and the water issue is maybe way less important and yet like AI has created this like somewhat fake narrative about itself that it's like a

victim of it but it's not fully AI generated but there's just a weird like paradox there where people seem to be distracted. I mean, to me, the thread

distracted. I mean, to me, the thread that ties all those together is that AI is a superpower for motivated reasoning.

Like, if there is something you want to believe, like AI can immediately generate the materials that will help you sell that case to other people. And,

you know, we're all just going to kind of have to like upgrade our cognitive hygiene and say, we now know that there are tools that can get me to sort of believe my own eyes when I shouldn't be doing that. And um, you know, it's it's

doing that. And um, you know, it's it's it's screwing with my mind. That's why I wrote this piece. Like this whole thing is screwing with my mind and I I want all of us to be having a conversation about it.

>> Yeah. There there was a very interesting thread just like two weeks earlier maybe about uh someone claimed to have delivered a Door Dash delivery, but they

just generated an image of the person's front door or something which I guess they got that image from Street View or something. And that feels like a fraud

something. And that feels like a fraud that would you make you like $10 and then you'd get deplatformed.

But uh but but it is weird that like uh I mean Rune was posting that uh hopefully Door Dash will be the first major company incentivized to build a reliable deep fake detector. Very doable

though it will become a red queen race and hopefully licensed out technology. I

never would have picked Door Dash as the company to do. I would have thought YouTube or Instagram but I don't know I don't know if you've seen anything else

going on in this uh companies. So, so

do do you think that uh this post even though it was fake ends up creating any type of change in terms of how these platforms have are operating? Because it

seems like right now that you have kind of like from my view is like actually like as these platforms have saturated and everybody uses them whether they're

you know using them to earn a living or or supplement their income or they're using them as a consumer. Everybody

seems to be like frustrated with the platforms. Is that just the enduring state of delivery products where people and and maybe it's solved through

robotics where eventually these platforms say like we heard that you hate working on our on our platform and the good news is that you don't have to anymore because we have drones and and

you know little little uh toy cars driving around. But but where do how do

driving around. But but where do how do you think the the if anything anything in the industry changes over the next kind of year?

>> It it's a good question. It's a big question. I think that anytime you feel

question. I think that anytime you feel dependent on a platform, you come to resent it. And people do feel dependent

resent it. And people do feel dependent on Uber Eats and Door Dash to bring them their dinner, particularly, you know, if you're living in Silicon Valley and ordering from them like three or four times a week. Um, you know, I think one

reason why the fake resonated was that it was so easy to believe a delivery platform would want to figure out how to pay their drivers less. We've seen them do it in other real ways in the past.

And so my hope is that if there's any change here, uh, it is that these companies now realize, look, if if you truly build an exploitative system for your drivers, there will be a backlash and people will turn against you. So

that would be my hope coming out of it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Odd odd vibes for sure. Um, yeah. uh what I'm interested

sure. Um, yeah. uh what I'm interested to know about your process using AI tools as a journalist. I feel like the hallucination

uh incidents has definitely gone down like it just in terms of like if you just need a fact or you just need to know what's the biggest company in the world like these are good knowledge retrieval tools but obviously you have a

very high bar for uh what is factually accurate in what you're printing. uh

what is your process for when you need to maybe not hunt down a specific fact in a story but you need to corroborate it with you know you're just looking up a whole bunch of extra context around how Door Dash operates is Uber Eats a

wholly owned subsidiary all of these different things like would there be a badge like how how are you using AI tools in your day day-to-day >> absolutely so I think that I probably use AI tools maybe more than the average

reporter like I feel like I understand the ways in which that I can trust them I'm happy to turn to them and say hey give me an overview about this industry that I haven't written about very much.

The reason that I'm comfortable is that I'm using bots that site their sources and you know as a longtime journalist I know which sources I can trust. So uh

I'm happy to do that. The other thing that I do is I'll sort of go out and you know get my own facts for the columns that I'm writing but then I'll feed them into chat GPT I find is really good at this and just say hey fact check this

for me. It does a really great job of

for me. It does a really great job of catching my mistakes all the time. That

was not true a year ago by the way. So

that's one of the places where I felt the most AI progress in is in using these things as fact checkers. Don't let

them write the column, but absolutely let them try to catch your mistakes because in my experience they will.

>> Yeah. Do you agree with this idea that for what you do, uh the writing, the instantiation is not the hard part.

>> Um well, how do you mean that? Because

there's a lot of like days where I'm on deadline where the writing absolutely is.

>> Oh, really? Okay. Because so so what I've heard is that is that it's the you know it's the it's the ideas inside it's the facts it's the scoop it's the it's the information that you spend you know

seven hours and then when it's time to go type it up and file uh yeah you kind of know the phrasing you know how to write and and sure you might dictate a little bit but like you're not just

going to catch and say write a column.

>> No I'm not and like honestly like even if I wanted to do that I still think that they're not great at it. Although I

will say the most recent version of Claude when I gave it this test was like good at mimicking my individual style in a way that sort of freaked me out a bit.

But I just think that like at least my readers like they want to know what I'm thinking and if I delegate that job to a chatbot they're probably just not going to want to pay me.

>> Yeah. I also think people are uh surpris readers are surprisingly open to like the rough edges. like they they actually don't necessarily need everything to be

in the super consistent style guide that you would get from enforcing an LLM on top of everything you published. Uh and

if you use parenthesis one time and then quotes another time or brackets another like it just doesn't really matter. It

actually gives more flavor and texture to the writing and so people are open to that. I don't know.

that. I don't know.

>> Yeah. I think like readers tend to be really forgiving when you tell them what you're doing and like if they hate something listen to them. Like there was a time when I was illustrating my columns with AI generated images because I thought it was like cool to have the

superpower to do that. So many readers were like, "Please stop doing this. We

hate this slop." And I was like, "All right, like we're in this together. I'm

going to stop doing this."

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. Uh yeah,

there's been there's been all sorts of like Yeah. It really depends on like the

like Yeah. It really depends on like the community that you're building, what how how uh like respected uh that >> Do you think you'll ever come back to X?

M >> guys, it's a it's now just like a cam generator and notification app. Like

what are we doing here? Do you remember how bad people got at Cambridge Analytica? Like what? Literally, what

Analytica? Like what? Literally, what

are we doing here?

>> Mute mute all that and then hang out for the Andre Carpathy post. You know,

there's some good stuff. You know,

>> there's some diamonds post are great.

>> Yeah, you you got to you got to really hone it in on the AI researchers who are still hanging out there. That

>> we Yeah, you have to accept that. You

have to accept that you're getting engagement farmed. I think Nikita shared

engagement farmed. I think Nikita shared earlier that that like that all the the highest engagement days of ex history have all been in the last week. Part of

that is like the the Maduro >> story, but uh >> yeah, >> still.

>> Anyway, thank you so much for hopping on.

>> Great to finally have you on and uh anytime anytime you have a story, give us a >> where can people find you? Uh give us the landscape of the of the Casey Newton Empire.

>> It's very simple. Oh, you can just go to platform.news. You can find this story

platform.news. You can find this story and I also co-host the Hardfor podcast.

And why don't you head over to youtube.com/hardfor. Check that out too.

youtube.com/hardfor. Check that out too.

>> There we go. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Have a great rest of you guys.

>> Cheers.

>> We'll talk to you soon.

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extremely scalable. That's right. Our

next guest is Alexine. He's live here in person in the TBP and Ultra Dump. Alex,

welcome.

>> There he is.

>> So, it's good to see you again. You

brought us books. Thank you.

>> Yeah, just in case.

>> Good to see you. Welcome to the show.

>> Welcome to the show. You don't have to have these happy dads. That's for later.

>> We have a happy dad investor coming on the show. Uh but uh for those who don't

the show. Uh but uh for those who don't know you, please introduce yourself. How

how are you describing yourself these days? Obviously, you're an author. The

days? Obviously, you're an author. The

book is Fossil Future. You can get it wherever books are sold, I'm sure. Yeah,

traditionally I do energy expert and philosopher because I actually think philosophy is the reason people disagree about energy.

>> Okay.

>> And then these days it's really independent policy advisor since most of the stuff I do is is behind the scenes with government trying to get them to adopt energy freedom policies.

>> Interesting. Uh do do you do you feel like the book touches on the philosophical debate around energy?

>> Yeah, it touches would be would be an >> would be an understatement. Yeah, I I mean I I think of my life really or the last 19 years in energy have been basically two things. One is trying and

and the one the book addresses is trying to shift the conversation from an antihuman conversation >> to a prohuman conversation about energy and and actually I think did we meet at Hereticon? Is that where we might have

Hereticon? Is that where we might have met at Hereticon or one of Peter's other things? But uh I I gave an example in my

things? But uh I I gave an example in my talk there that I think is the easiest way to see that we have an anti-human way of thinking about energy, which is I'll ask people, hey, which of the following words would you use to

describe our current relationship to climate? So, are we in a climate crisis?

climate? So, are we in a climate crisis?

Are we in a do we have a climate problem? Do we have a climate nonpro? Or

problem? Do we have a climate nonpro? Or

do we have a climate renaissance? M

>> and you know that audience is going to be more might even consider renaissance but most people won't right most people will say crisis >> or problem and then the extreme is nonpro

>> but then I I share the data which you can actually look at the rate of deaths from climate disasters such as storms and floods extreme temperatures etc and it's very clear-cut and we have this

just incredibly dramatic 98% decline in those deaths >> which would imply Renaissance, >> which would imply Renaissance >> and that's over like a hundred years.

>> That's over the last hundred years.

Yeah. And if you go back further, it's it's even it's even more. And then if you look at the data in terms of >> Yeah. There was something even even with

>> Yeah. There was something even even with the California wildfires a year ago, I think there was something like 30 deaths, which was the most deaths in a

in a in a fire in recorded history in California to from from what I remember.

>> Yeah. And I mean wildfires is actually I was going to mention the economic piece of it. Like even economically, if you

of it. Like even economically, if you adjust for GDP growth, the damages are flat.

>> Uh so you would say it has to be a renaissance, right? I mean, we're we're

renaissance, right? I mean, we're we're much less threatened from climate than ever.

>> And if you think about that in fossil fuels and you think for a minute or two, you think, well, that actually might have to do positively with fossil fuels because fossil fuels power the irrigation systems that alleviate drought. Drought is actually the number

drought. Drought is actually the number one climate killer historically. Yeah,

>> they obviously give us heating and air conditioning to deal with extreme temperatures with with and even uh abnormal temperatures and cold is by far the bigger killer than heat. And we have all kinds of sturdy infrastructure and

storm warning systems. So it's this really interesting phenomenon where what actually happened is, as I put it, fossil fuels didn't take a safe climate and make it dangerous. They took a dangerous climate and made it safe. But

the interesting question in terms of philosophically is why is it that so many people say we're in a climate crisis even though from a climate livability perspective or a prohuman perspective we're in a climate

renaissance and and I'm telegraphing it a bit which is that they're they're not looking at it from a pro-human moral perspective. They're looking at it from

perspective. They're looking at it from an anti-human moral perspective. But but

specifically the perspective that our goal should be to reduce or eliminate our impact which is the idea of of being green.

>> Yeah. Is there a factor here of just uh like like media awareness like the the fact that you know in in times of old you wouldn't if there was a fire like

the Palisades fire you wouldn't see that everywhere for weeks on end but now there's much more visibility so I hear about an earthquake over there or a storm over there and so it feels like

there's more happening >> that's a mechanism that people can use but of course they could use the opposite mechanism I mean they could say and this would happen all the Look at this. Look at this minor climate

problem that 100 years ago would have been a total disaster. Like compare this to the Galveastston storm 100 years ago.

So my conclusion is the people leading the charge who think it's a climate crisis, like there are a lot of people who are just ignorant of these facts.

But the people who know these facts, who know that we're at a we're in a renaissance from a climate livability perspective, they're evaluating the state of the climate not by how good it is for humans, but by how little impact

we've had. So their goal is an earth

we've had. So their goal is an earth with minimal human impact and by that standard we are in a climate crisis because we have had some >> impact. So my view is if our overall

>> impact. So my view is if our overall impact is positive for humans that's a good thing. Their view is if there's

good thing. Their view is if there's more impact that's a bad thing and this is this illustrates that this is overwhelmingly a philosophical disagreement. So whether you view today

disagreement. So whether you view today if once you know the facts about climate livability whether you view it as a climate renaissance or climate crisis that's not based on science nobody nobody has disputed these facts I mean

New York Times tried everyone tried nobody has successfully vivik really popularized this when he ran for for president because he he learned this in fossil future and no everyone tried to refute him and nobody could do it so

it's it's only that you have a different what I call in philosophy or what we call in philosophy standard of evaluation you're looking at the same facts but you have a different measuring stick. And my my basic contention is if

stick. And my my basic contention is if you look at fossil fuels in a balanced way from what I call a human flourishing perspective, the benefits are obviously far far greater than the negatives,

including climate wise. But but that's that's why like I have the moral case for fossil fuels and fossil future, which is about why global human flourishing requires more fossil fuels.

>> But it's the number one thing I'm doing is I'm just changing the yard stick by which we're measuring it. And I'm using that very consistent. I think AI is taking the wind out of the climate

crisis sales in the sense that climate crisis was uh a powerful story for the media industrial complex because

>> let's say you know have a slow news news day or week that TV can just show a big chart on the screen of a bunch of counties and they're all red and it looks looks really bad just because the

the the way the graphic design is done.

Uh and now we have this like uh uh worldwide uh sort of systemic fear of this impending I I feel like >> oh so you just people are talking about

AI not climate we're just using way more energy gas turbines but then there's also the media story of just giving this sort of like media the media industrial

complex loves a sense of impending doom >> like Eleaser Udicowski is more popular than like Al Gore as of yesterday or as last year. Yeah, that content is getting

last year. Yeah, that content is getting much.

>> AI Doom is just a is just a bigger meteor >> right now. It's much more the energy side.

>> The energy side, but the Doom side really concerns me. And AI is actually the only issue I'm considering getting into >> in terms of mastering it and mastering how to communicate it just because I feel like there's

>> nobody has really mastered it from the prohuman pro technology side >> and it's hard to >> No, no. I I said this yesterday. I mean,

the tech industry right now suffers because nobody can nobody can speak in into a a a let's say like the Super Bowl demographic. If the tech founder went

demographic. If the tech founder went and talked at the Super Bowl during the halftime show and they were like, "We're going to automate all the jobs."

Everyone would be like, >> "Boo, I'll hit the boo button. You can't do but but like boo like this guy sucks.

Get him out of here."

and and so so it's been very difficult and and people talk about UBI and the sort of post scarcity element if you can just bring a bunch of robots online. Uh

but nobody especially at the labs I feel like has I I don't even think um this idea of like a personal tutor or personal expert in your pocket is really I don't think people appreciate it that

much even though the labs talk about it.

So finding the pro-human narrative I think is super important. It's something

that's like critical to the industry because I think we're in the second the beginnings of like the second real tech lash. You had the sort of like social

lash. You had the sort of like social media tech lash era. Now we're in the AI tech lash era. And it's only going to get worse if we just keep promising the world, hey, we're going to automate your

job away. you're motivating me to this

job away. you're motivating me to this is the tension in my life right now because >> you know I've been working energy for a long time and we've gotten to this point where the opportunity like a lot of the debate has shifted and I've had some

role in that but also the politics have shifted where I and others have never had more opportunity to actually change the policy for the better but then AI >> you're kind of getting shiny shiny

object >> well I'm not deterred yet but it's but also I like I need to innovate in AI actually for what I'm trying to energy and there's >> anyway so so it's it's tempting but I

would just say if anyone here is watching who thinks that you might be able to be this I would much prefer to help you and teach you what I've learned in energy and apply to AI then do it myself would be more of a matter of like

I got plenty to do in energy but but there needs to be somebody doing this so Alexstein.com just send me uh >> can you can you set the table for me on

like the state of American the American energy industry because uh I grew up at at a time when the big oil companies were the biggest companies in the world.

Exon Mobile was the largest company in the world and then now we live in the era of big tech and I'm wondering if uh the big oil companies are still well-run like they don't feel founder. They don't

feel like they're in founder mode. I

don't know the names of people who are running large energy companies. I can't

Elon Musk where I can >> kids at elite universities are not like you know juniors being like I'm working in oil and >> I'm older than you guys and I I I

remember cuz I I was at um one of the top math science high schools in the country than I was at Duke and I just remember thinking later because I myself had no interest in fossil fuels at the time and a little bit of an aversion uh

I'm like looking back none of those brilliant people wanted to do this like it wasn't aspirational So interesting.

>> But is it is it is it an industry where the product has such insane product market fit that you can you don't need the most elite uh executives operator.

>> You get some but so here's the thing is I don't think oil and gas has attracted overall the best of the best. There are

definitely some brilliant people.

>> Uh the bad news is that electricity is much much worse.

>> Okay, explain that. So well so the thing about oil and gas is in a lot of this the two variables are going to be what's the degree of freedom in the culture in the in the political system for achievement because that's going to

determine largely the economic upside and then there's the issue of the culture. So with the culture obviously

culture. So with the culture obviously there's been huge hostility toward oil and gas and of course coal as well >> and that that deters a lot of people early from even wanting to go in. The

positive of oil and gas is that it's um within the energy industry, it's by far freer than many many other parts of the energy industry. If you look at say

energy industry. If you look at say particularly in Texas, you look at where the Perian basin dominates, you can get a permit to drill in the Perian in a few days. Now, if it's the Texas Peran, if

days. Now, if it's the Texas Peran, if it's the New Mexico Perian on federal lands, much different story. You know,

that that stack of paper is probably 10 times uh higher. But there's a lot of a lot of oil and gas doesn't involve federal permitting which I hope we talk about trying to fix that at the moment.

So what that means that you can act a lot more quickly on good ideas which attracts good people. Now, if we shift to the electricity sector, >> I had I real quick I had a last year I

was at a at kind of a VC founder dinner and uh one of the one of the founders there had >> some some company I think in advertising, but he had a piece of land in California that he was just he had

been drilling for oil. He just had like a small like kind of lifestyle business.

That's crazy.

>> But he ultimately uh there was some new regulation that was getting passed and I think that basically put him out of business. Weird.

business. Weird.

>> Yeah. I mean the Cal I admire all these people in California to some extent Colorado and it's it's hard. I I I actually refuse to invest in energy just because I advise politicians and it creates conflicts of interest, but I

just say as a as a hypothetical investor in >> a postconlict era.

>> No, I mean I'm I'm very extreme about conflict avoidance.

>> I I appreciate that.

>> But but it's it's Yeah, California is really hard. I mean you can you can of

really hard. I mean you can you can of course imagine high risk high reward things, but it's just you look at the governor. You would think we import so

governor. You would think we import so much oil, wouldn't we want to produce some? And

some? And >> yes, and there's I mean there's a bit of a shift there just as there is in New York and and uh and Massachusetts.

They're a little bit more open.

>> But it's it's bad. But if we take if we take the power sector, I mean, first of all, we're talking about something that that is institutionalized as a monopoly >> in the first place. And then not to go into too much detail about the power

sector, but there's we started quote unquote deregulation, which is just a new and in many ways worse form of regulation. We start that a couple

regulation. We start that a couple decades ago. And broadly speaking, there

decades ago. And broadly speaking, there are two really big types of electricity systems. One is a traditional utility model where the utility does everything.

So they have the generation, what's called the transmission, so the longer distance travel, and then the distribution, which is the more local stuff. So in that you can imagine that

stuff. So in that you can imagine that doesn't tend to attract the best people because like a lot of monopoly type things, like a lot of the military stuff, it's a cost plus model. So and

you get paid for spending more money.

you get paid for incurring more.

>> But then as bad as the market is a mess in part because they allowed once intermittent solar and wind came on they allowed that to be treated as a reliable power source when it's not in fact a

reliable power source. Now it has utility but it's primarily a fuels saving device. So people think like oh

saving device. So people think like oh you hate solar you hate it's not about that. It's just what does it

that. It's just what does it functionally do. What it functionally

functionally do. What it functionally does uh in the vast majority of cases is it saves you fuel on a reliable power source because most of what we need in electricity is we need ondemand

electricity and with a solar panel or wind turbine you can't get on demand electricity it's both the existence and the amount is weather dependent so if there are situations such as say China

with coal where they have you know a lot of coal power and they need enough coal power they need that much capacity to meet their peak demand but if you have a bunch of solar And particularly if they overbuilt a bunch of solar that they

were trying to sell to the rest of the world and it it didn't work as well as they thought. You can you can have

they thought. You can you can have basically colar, right? Coal plus solar where every time the sun shines. Yeah.

To what extent the sun shines, you're saving fuel and depending on your fuel cost that can be efficient. Now it tends to be efficient at lower levels versus uh versus higher levels. But so the

electricity markets got screwed up for many reasons, but that was the biggest one where if you allow solar and wind to compete as reliable sources, it screws up everything. And in particular, it

up everything. And in particular, it screws up the economics of the reliable sources. Yeah.

sources. Yeah.

>> Because if they're not, if it's a monopoly and one person owns everything, you can decide, hey, I'm going to pay this much for solar for fuel savings and you can make it work when it works. But

if you have a quote market where all the generators are competing independently and you allow solar to be its own independent generator whenever it's available, that natural gas plant doesn't benefit from the fuel savings.

It loses operating revenue. And so this is what we did to all the reliable power plants on the grid. Is we subsidize the hell out of solar and wind, spammed the grid with this fuel saving infrastructure, but on the power

markets, it doesn't benefit them. So

it's screwed up. So this this gets technical but you can imagine that a lot of the people who have succeeded in this field are there there can be a scam element. You have some smart traders but

element. You have some smart traders but their efforts are not going to a productive thing. So it's both

productive thing. So it's both >> talent level issues with the utilities but then you even have some smart people in the markets but their intelligence isn't being welldirected because it

actually can screw up the grid. And then

the culture has push pushed so many people into the green space where the relative opportunity was much less than in fossil fuels and in nuclear if you had a proper market. So that's that's

it's really bad situation.

>> Nuclear uh get us up to speed on how you're thinking about nuclear these days. It feels like there's incredible

days. It feels like there's incredible energy both the government just announced a $2.7 billion grant yesterday and uh it feels like there's nuclear startups for the first time in my

lifetime getting funding. learned

yesterday that we get enriched uranium from Russia >> or we did not used to.

>> Yeah, there are other people who can do it too. So I

it too. So I >> I know you know you you wrote that really interesting essay yesterday on um energy production and I think in in your space that there's many forms of energy production but the main thing is going

to be electricity production and specifically it's dis what's called dispatchable or reliable electricity production. So on demand, we could talk

production. So on demand, we could talk about how AI fits into that, but in general, I think there are four things that have screwed that up. And one is the near criminalization of nuclear power.

>> The issue with that is >> that's a hard one to unwind quickly. So

if you if you look at there's a lot there's this attempt at a nuclear renaissance and and I'm working as hard as anyone to try to make that happen but we don't yet we're not yet having any kind of rapid build of new nuclear

infrastructure you know since the establishment of the nuclear regulatory commission in 1975 >> we only started building any reactors from we only started conceiving and completing reactors in 2023 which are

the Vogal plants in South right in South Carolina and they were >> when did they actually you're saying they didn't >> there nothing that went from conception to completion from 1975.

>> So they got completed in 2023 >> 2023 but with you know 10x cost >> overruns. So we have now there there was

>> overruns. So we have now there there was already some progress before this administration. We had what's called the

administration. We had what's called the advance act which was a significant improvement tried to redirect the NRC.

They're definitely much better people at the NRC now. So they're headed in in a much much better direction. Congress

both Republicans and Democrats are aligned. But we're just talking about

aligned. But we're just talking about something that >> we've lost arguably 50 years of potential progress because we had we had something in the late60s where nuclear

was by many estimates the cheapest form of electricity and the safest in terms of reliable electricity. It was already true with that technology and we somehow >> the safest cleanest.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Obviously.

>> Yeah. I mean the talking point that I hear about the NRC is that we haven't approved any new nuclear reactor designs but we also haven't just been copy pasting the ones that work. So it's like twofold problems and >> and this the nuclear industry is

fascinating in terms of communication because their their usual thing is just we have to change everyone's opinion about perception about nuclear and then we can do stuff and >> which I think that the public is more

pro-uclear than they think even historically right now it is. I think

what we have to we have to do what you're looking at which is say wait a second >> we could already produce these large nuclear plants and get this incredible result. Why don't we fix that problem

result. Why don't we fix that problem first? Because we actually know how to

first? Because we actually know how to do these things. They're all these exciting companies doing new things.

>> But but part of the reason is these communications people have an aversion toward traditional nuclear because they it has these negative associations. But

you have to you have to kill those associations. You have to kill the idea

associations. You have to kill the idea that this was uniquely dangerous. No, it

was uniquely safe. Like Chernobyl uh has nothing to do with what we would ever do in the United States. That was like a half weapon, half reactor. And even that damage doesn't compare to the damage done by a lot of other things in the Soviet Union. I mean, as one economist

Soviet Union. I mean, as one economist put it, Soviet toasters probably did more damage >> than I don't know that's a stat, but that's >> No, no, no. I

>> nuclear it's like what we need to do is we need to fix the political stuff as quickly as possible >> and we're getting some funding there, but we have to recognize that it's the

overall problem is just a political restriction problem. Yeah. So that is a

restriction problem. Yeah. So that is a very exciting thing to do but it is the least near-term sure >> of the four things. So the other things are I mentioned the electricity markets are screwed up. Okay that's part of a

broader pref set of preferences for solar and wind >> or for intermittent energy let's just say and the other piece of that which I was involved in and has largely been fixed but not totally is the subsidization of intermittent energy. So

that was in the big beautiful bill. That

was a lot of what I spent 2025 on is killing as many of trying to help people who wanted to kill those kill as many as possible. So, we've got the nuclear

possible. So, we've got the nuclear criminalization. We've got the

criminalization. We've got the preferences for intermittent energy. The

biggest thing by far is we have the prohibitions on reliable solar, reliable fossil fuel energy. And that's you'll hear about things like the endangerment finding. There was the Biden clean power

finding. There was the Biden clean power plan 2.0 that basically made it illegal for existing coal plants to function for any new natural gas plants to be built past a certain date. So, and then we have the general permitting problem

which is anti-development permitting. So

you just imagine we had all of these factors restricting the supply of electricity and then we had the previous administration and others artificially increasing demand through electrification, right? Forced

electrification, right? Forced electrification. So trying to shut off

electrification. So trying to shut off natural gas and homes trying to force us to use EVs, which I'm totally in favor of people using freely, but we pay over $50,000 per EV. Like taxpayers pay over

7,500.

>> No, no, no, no. That's just one small part of it. We could go into all the different subsidies cuz there's a lot of fuel economy trading where you basically get >> It's wild. It's wild, too, because you

get the subsidy and then the consumer buys a vehicle for $60,000 and it's worth half that in like 12 months.

>> Yeah. But it's it's also the way the fuel economy things work at the federal level and the California level. A lot of what they do is they set the fuel economy standards impossibly high for regular vehicles and then they give EVs

this ridiculously low high fuel economy score and so everyone Tesla on down just trade makes huge amounts of money trading their emissions credits.

>> Oh, got it. And that's per vehicle that >> Yeah. And this, by the way, this is

>> Yeah. And this, by the way, this is something the current administration has been doing a good job at the exe in terms of the administration executive actions trying to undo a lot of these things, >> but you want as many undone

congressionally. So again, we have these

congressionally. So again, we have these these factors of artificially restricting supply, artificially increasing demand, and then of course the one you guys are focused on is the organic increase in demand

>> via AI. So the what I'm trying to fix is just stop restricting supply. How do you how do you predict that? Uh this feels like you know rising energy costs have always been a political issue. They're

going to be like at the forefront I think of a lot of debates going forward.

Politicians I imagine are going to try to score points by you know beating back data center development just because they know their constituents are going

to cheer it on. uh how are you advising all these different players at the at the center of these debates on on how to

how knowing that energy uh uh usage is going to go up dramatically uh with with data centers one way or another what what is your how do how do we kind of thread the needle

>> so there's there's what to advocate policy-wise and what to advocate messaging wise so let's start with messaging wise so one thing is to pin the recent and and baked in rises on the

proper culprits. So there's an attempt

proper culprits. So there's an attempt to to um pin it on reducing subsidies.

So it's in particular, I try not to be political about this, but there's this idea if Republicans reduce subsidies, therefore that's why your electricity bills go up. The timing doesn't even work on these things. The logic is

actually the opposite. The subsidies uh by depriving one of the things they've done is they've deprived the reliable power plants of capital. They've had

less reliable power. And so what happens is you have shortfalls in supply relative demand and that puts the market prices up in particular what's called capacity markets which you see particularly in regions like PJM,

Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland and that whole region like those prices go up. So there's just this all this false

up. So there's just this all this false narrative. So what people need to

narrative. So what people need to recognize is the reason prices are going up is because of prohibitions on reliable power and preferences for unreliable power and then artificial

force electrification. like they need to

force electrification. like they need to understand that the data centers one thing people need to understand is new demand does not incre inherently increase electricity prices in fact usually what it does is it decreases

electricity prices because you have the same amount you have relatively the same amount of capital spending spread out over more different entities so you'll have different you know um uh Bergam uh

interior secretary former governor like he and Chris Wright secretary of energy have been pointing out hey North Dakota is looking really good price-wise and they've had massive increases in data because they've been investing more in energy.

>> Well, no, no, no. Because the data centers there's on any grid you have the peak usage and then you have the regular usage and you very rarely hit peak. So,

when you have more demand, you're actually spreading out the cost among more. So, the the one of the questions

more. So, the the one of the questions with AI that's interesting is what's the flexibility of the demand profile going to be? Because the more flexible it is,

to be? Because the more flexible it is, the less you need to increase the peak, which is which is good to increase the peak, but that's the most expensive thing to do. The more you can use off peak, the more you're actually lowering prices.

>> Yeah. And this is already happening a little bit where sometimes if you prompt an image generator, it will in your in your in the middle of the day, it'll go across the world and it'll use it where it's dark there in the middle of the

night because there's maybe more energy or something or like away from peak load. What do you think about uh my my

load. What do you think about uh my my question of uh you know energy production growth in America 2026? Uh

are we going to see you know a break in the curve? Are we already seeing a break

the curve? Are we already seeing a break in the curve? Is this even the right question to be asking about just energy progress in America over the next few years?

>> I mean it's a good it's a good measure of progress particularly industrial progress to look at energy production in general >> in a country and the fact that we've had flat electricity usage. Yeah. Yeah. And

if you look at ours versus China's, I think we're at about 1/5if their industrial electricity >> uh usage. So those are really bad signs.

So it's a sign that you're being less productive than you can and often that you're offshoring things because you have such a restrictive anti-development >> environment. With the electricity thing,

>> environment. With the electricity thing, it's >> it's one of these things where I'm trying to create the future. So I try not like I'm trying to make but you're rooting for 5% growth this year.

>> Well, yeah. I'm rooting for the enablement of the capacity and the nice thing is you have a lot of smart people in the administration who are really interested in this problem. So that's

that's a good thing at the margins because then you can you can make things happen more quickly.

>> You have private industry is very focused on this because of AI whereas they haven't been before. So you're

getting a lot of ingenuity and and it's going to be really interesting to see >> there's going to be a lot of things at the margins and we'll see how they add up. I mean, one thing is we use we're

up. I mean, one thing is we use we're using very small oil plants, natural gas plants. Uh, you know, they're talking

plants. Uh, you know, they're talking about using the backup generators in Walmart on the ground. Like, there's

going to be these interesting questions and it's we have a new class of smart people who are now being added who whose now focus is on generating more dispatchable power. I love that. There's

dispatchable power. I love that. There's

lots of things you can do. I mean,

there's interesting things you can do with with batteries. Like you can, this I'm in agreement on Elon with like you can you can build batteries and you can charge them off peak. People think you need solar and wind to go with

batteries, but actually the easiest way to deal with batteries and the way most batteries get charged today is you have a reliable source of energy and you charge it off peak, right? You can run your nuclear power plant at night and charge batteries and then for a few

hours you'll have those batteries to meet peak demand. You can also what's called up rate natural gas plants. So a

lot of the natural gas plants in the country were built a generation or two ago and they might get uh 30% less capacity than a new natural gas plant, but you can without without dealing with

the fundamental supply chain issues in many cases. You can actually add

many cases. You can actually add capacity to hundreds and hundreds of existing gas plants. So we've got there's a lot of industrial potential.

There's a friendly administration. What

we have fundamentally though is ultimately the administration doesn't properly make any law. It enforces the law. administers the law. And so what we

law. administers the law. And so what we need as much as possible is to do things congressionally. So subsidies were one

congressionally. So subsidies were one piece of it. The thing right now that I'm very focused on is permitting reform.

>> And that is cuz it's impossible to get permits for things or it's so difficult and I don't know how much time we have, but there's a lot there's a lot that needs to be fixed and it's it's actually hanging by a thread right now.

We have a lot of time because you're our new energy correspondent, but we we can't let you leave without talking about uh the actions in Venezuela, how that's

>> impacting kind of global energy markets.

Uh you know, everybody on X has their own theory of why we did it and all that stuff, but uh let's talk about realities of like how this can impact um uh just

different geopolitical dynamics. All

right, let me just say one thing to the audience because one reason I was excited about coming here is you've got, you know, a group of people that's very engaged, I think, interested in these issues, but that I don't always get to

to speak to. And I just posted this on X, but I want people to know like if you find this exciting, we're hiring, and I just put out, you know, for one of my groups, Energy Freedom Fund, which is the only principled pro- freedom

lobbying group in the world basically.

Uh we are Yeah. $50,000 referral bonus if you can find anybody. Whoa.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And we have an assessment.

There's an assessment that will tell us >> whether you can do it or not. So, it's

two hours. So, if if people are up for it, >> it's worth doing. If you do a decent job at all, we'll at least give you good feedback. But, yeah, that's that's my

feedback. But, yeah, that's that's my limiter right now >> in fixing these problems is we have enough money, >> fortunately. But we have a talent

>> fortunately. But we have a talent deficit. So, this is one reason I wanted

deficit. So, this is one reason I wanted to come on today. So, let's talk about Venezuela. I mean, Venezuela, I try to

Venezuela. I mean, Venezuela, I try to be a master of energy and not pretend to be a master of other things. So,

obviously, many aspects of the Venezuela situation are beyond energy. I think

there's two really interesting things about this that are important. So, one

is that this is not making a difference, a big difference to global oil markets in the near near future. So, we're

talking about something where Venezuela is kind of like Venezuelan oil in some ways is like nuclear power, whereas it used to be good and it should have gotten better, but you know, you're talking about going >> potential.

>> Yeah. Well, it's, you know, was once I think its peak was three and a half million barrels a day. So, right now we're at about 102 million barrels a day. Uh, and by the barrels barrel is 42

day. Uh, and by the barrels barrel is 42 gallons. So, it's about, you know, 500

gallons. So, it's about, you know, 500 million gallons or so of oil, uh, you know, produced a day. And 1% of that right now, a little less than 1% is coming from Venezuela. And both because

of how dilapidated so much of the industry is, how much incompetence there is, and also because physically the crude they use in terms of heavy crude is more difficult to process than other things.

>> It's it's not like this is just you're going to go from one to three anytime soon. So there's a lot of invest, you

soon. So there's a lot of invest, you know, it's this is not any kind of slam dunk. By the way, Canada has in some

dunk. By the way, Canada has in some ways better oil. It's a lot freer country. I think we're totally

country. I think we're totally underutilizing Canada as a trading partner. So, it's an interesting I I

partner. So, it's an interesting I I think economically near-term it's not super interesting. It's not as exciting

super interesting. It's not as exciting as people think. It's probably most exciting for oil field services. If you

invest a bunch of money and send a bunch of people down there, yeah, that benefits Hallebertton and Schlumbumberge and that kind of thing. Also benefits

potentially GF coast refineries who are very good at this kind of crude. Then

they don't need to get it from Canada.

So then it comparatively hurts Canadian people. So there's that whole thing. The

people. So there's that whole thing. The

thing I find most interesting though is that for the first time that I can ever remember, a pet issue of mine is now in the public or this pet is in the public,

which is that all of these oil countries stole our oil.

>> Like this is a I'm I'm really I don't always agree with exactly how the administration is saying it, but it's very important. And read the the book

very important. And read the the book The Prize is is really good in this regard by Daniel Jurgen. Yeah. Yeah. He

he's he does he's not as judgmental as I am about this. He probably doesn't have as negative a judgment, but you just look in country after country, what happened was they had some, you know,

random mild dictator type person or king or, you know, wasn't the most evil person in the world, but they made a very clear deal with the west. So you

take Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia couldn't even find water >> before we came there, you know, before the west and particularly the US uh came there and standard oil, right? And they

couldn't find water. That was their that was their big problem at the time. And

then we of course make it possible. We

get what's called these concessions. So

we're getting a kind of right. And what

happens is just they keep pulling back on these things. And because of cultural and political forces at the time, nobody stands up to them. So they they keep stealing more and more and then they just totally nationalize it. They

declare it their national heritage.

They've totally broken the agreement and then they use this to fund some of the worst dictatorial behavior in the world.

So I think it's very very important that people are now saying explicitly, hey, we had rights to that oil >> and it's been stolen and there's >> this has been me'd to no end over the

last few days, which is, you know, the I when when when people >> see Trump say that's our oil or something to that effect. People

normally dunk on it because they're like, well, how could that possibly be the case? It's we don't own this is not

the case? It's we don't own this is not the 51st state. It's not our land. But

you're pushing back and saying, "No, we actually did originally have >> Yeah. I mean, it's not we. It's it's

>> Yeah. I mean, it's not we. It's it's

specific companies, right? So, we need to be clear on it's it's not nec it's not the government's thing." But it is it is an interesting it's a real case of reparations because the seizures happened not too long ago. I mean,

you're talking about a lot of them culminated in the 70s and then happen.

You're talking about the 40s maybe through the 70s and 80s and then they even once they nationalize it, they screw over companies in different kinds of ways. So, I think this is a really

of ways. So, I think this is a really good thing, but it needs to be talked about in a very precise way. One thing

that that Trump will do that I think is wrong is like he he'll have sort of a feeling of like I want all these other countries resources. So, like I'm so

countries resources. So, like I'm so excited about Greenland and even making Canada the 51st state and then talking about Ukraine in certain ways. And I

think there's you're on really firm ground when somebody actually broke contracts with your companies. there

there's a difference between like oh I'm really excited like having the mentality >> and it would be nice to have access to that versus there was a time when there was a

>> a contract in place >> and and access we can access them in a very real way by trading with them. So

with Canada we have enormous opportunity that I think we're squandering right now. I think we should be there's a lot

now. I think we should be there's a lot I mean Ukraine is a whole other issue but I think we should be supporting Ukraine a lot more. Um, so yeah, but but it is a really interesting narrative shift. That is a good thing.

shift. That is a good thing.

>> Well, thank you for getting us up to speed. We have to jump to our next

speed. We have to jump to our next guest. We'd love to have you back on the

guest. We'd love to have you back on the show. This is fantastic.

show. This is fantastic.

>> Thank you so much. The book is Fossil Future. The author is Alex Epstein

Future. The author is Alex Epstein for stopping by. Uh before we bring in our next guest, let me tell you about public.com investing for those who take it seriously. They got stocks, options,

it seriously. They got stocks, options, bonds, crypto, sec uh treasuries, and more. all with great customer service.

more. all with great customer service.

Uh, our next guest is the founder of Ring at Amazon. Jamie Simonoff is at CES. We're going to have him break down

CES. We're going to have him break down how CES is going. Jamie, sorry for keeping you waiting. Thanks so much for taking the time to jump on the show.

It's great to meet you. How are you doing?

>> I'm doing great.

>> I would love to hear how is CES I imagine you've been going a long time.

I've actually never been. It feels like a playground for me. I'd love to go sometime, but uh how is it this year?

How does it compare to other years? Uh

what are you introducing there?

>> Uh it's so it's it's pretty overall CES pretty fun. Uh I think this is like my

pretty fun. Uh I think this is like my 15th or 17th year or something like that. So it's been a long time.

that. So it's been a long time.

>> Yeah.

>> Um I started I I >> start I started you know building the booth myself and driving it here in a in a in a U-Haul truck.

>> Um and you know gradu I've graduated now to a booth that you know built by professionals.

>> Wait how did you build the first booth?

Is this like plywood or are you >> scraps in a cave?

>> Scraps in a cave.

>> I actually took I actually took the Shark Tank set, you know, that was on Shark Tank. Yeah.

Shark Tank. Yeah.

>> And I took the Shark Tank set and we like put it in a U-Haul truck, brought it to CES. It turns out that you can't use power tools >> as a nonUN person at CES.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> And so like we we were like violently like threatened. I couldn't I couldn't

like threatened. I couldn't I couldn't afford union labor. So I'm like, "Guys, you're going to have to like pull me out of here in handcuffs. Like I have to get this booth done." That's crazy.

>> So, yeah, we would literally build build the booth and it got bigger and bigger and now we Yeah, we've graduated.

>> Okay. Tell me the story of Shark Tank and I want to know if you could play it back uh with everything you know now, do you think you could have convinced the sharks to invest?

>> Uh, with everything I know now, sure. I

would have told them I'm going to build the world's largest security company and sell it for a billion dollars. Do you

want to invest?

>> But you could have told him that. You

think they would have gone for that? I I

I I should have just told them like, you know, don't worry, I'll I'll let you invest in a 7 million valuation. It's

going to sell for a billion. You're

totally fine.

>> Yeah. One of the greatest misses.

>> But is like to be fair to them at the time, like I didn't know what that was going to do. You know, it was it was uh we were doorbot. We were figuring it out like a lot of, you know, like a lot of startups and things we didn't

necessarily pivot, but we pivoted inside of our own sort of mission many times to get to where we are today.

>> Yeah. And and and how how do you describe uh the scope of the company? I

mean, you you teased it. You said it's the world's largest home security company, but what's the shape of that?

What's the footprint? What does your organization look like? Take me through sort of a day in the life.

>> Yeah. So, I mean, you know, because I'm at an Amazon, there's some things we reported. So, we're over 100 million

reported. So, we're over 100 million cameras out there. Profitable business.

>> Hit that gong. Hit that app loving gong, John.

>> There we go.

>> There we go. It's a camera shaking hit as >> congratulations. Uh I I I mean did you

>> congratulations. Uh I I I mean did you ever think you'd be at that scale or what was the initial uh introduction?

>> No, I I I remember when I launched this thing, Nest I think when Nest sold to Google, it was reported I don't know if it's true, but they were doing like 30,000

like units either a month or a quarter.

>> Sure. And I remember thinking to myself, man, like if I ever got to 30 thou, like, you know, it's like if I ever got that big, you know, holy, and and you know, we're now I mean, it's like, you

know, literally 100 million plus cameras out there. Um, global I and the it's,

out there. Um, global I and the it's, you know, for me, I we the mission to make neighborhoods safer. the impact

we've had there has been substantial and that's I I truly am proud of like I I really try to focus on those things and then the output let it happen let people reward us for purchasing a camera because they think it's going to make

their home or neighborhood safer.

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, it makes a ton of sense.

Can you take me through uh sort of how you are thinking about the product suite, the uh the the feature sets like how you're positioning the the overall portfolio and then some of the

announcements today.

>> Yeah. So I mean from a macro side >> I I look at AI as IIA. So we're the intelligent assistant. And so our job is

intelligent assistant. And so our job is now we're you know when I launched Ring a motion alert was like mind-blowing.

Like dude you got a motion alert from your front door to your phone. Like

that's crazy.

>> Now you hear too they hear them too often. And so our job is to use AI

often. And so our job is to use AI >> to basically curate for you as an individual unique to your home what you want to see when you should be interacting with it and really take down

the number of alerts and increase the um the efficacy of them. So that's that's like from a from a macro that's what we're doing.

>> How are you how are you thinking about the trade-off of like cloud-based artificial intelligence? Obviously

artificial intelligence? Obviously processing a ton of video constantly that feels like something that needs to be done on a server. At the same time, there's privacy. So, people might want

there's privacy. So, people might want it done on device, but that creates power constraints and all sorts of things. Have you I mean, also, I feel

things. Have you I mean, also, I feel like being at Amazon's great because I feel like most people trust Amazon to be secure because AWS and all this stuff, but uh how have you have you tussled with like where the AI lives and the

benefits and costs and tradeoffs there.

>> So, for us, it's it's layers. You try to uh determine it's a human or motion event at the camera level. So you're not just flooding to your point like you're not flooding the AI or the servers the cloud with the stuff because it's very

expensive. I mean it's using a lot of

expensive. I mean it's using a lot of power using a lot of processing. So it's

like trying to have like these different layers but you know where we like to end is the cloud. We like to have the cloud as the place that's doing the final processing. AI is moving so fast that in

processing. AI is moving so fast that in our area I think anything you put at the edge is going to age like fish on a hot day. And so we're trying to be very

day. And so we're trying to be very careful not to put too much intelligence at the edge because that intelligence it it decays so quickly that by the time

you actually ship that product, it's maybe no longer intelligent. And I I want my team to be able to write on and you know build code and put out features that are literally the best in in the world at that moment. And the cloud

really is the only place to do it right now for that final sort of piece. Where

where are you uh most excited for various models to improve? Like do we need capability advancement or do you feel like there's a capability overhang

where there's enough product that that it's yeah more about implementation?

>> It's such a good question because there's there's so many like places where we're putting models and different models and custom models and the like there's so much coming out. But I would

say where you're going with it. I think

we are starting to now I think that the AI is ahead of what we can sort of like you know chew and sort of digest our food with. I think it's actually getting

food with. I think it's actually getting farther along than we can put the features around it, the UI around it and and have customers understand it. So, I

do think it's actually starting to get almost faster than we are um in that and it's up to us like now to try to figure out like how to get because again no one our our customers don't buy technology,

they buy something that makes their home feel safer, makes their home better, like gives them more attachment to their home. They're not buying the best AI.

home. They're not buying the best AI.

They're buying the best service for their home. And so, it's our job to sort

their home. And so, it's our job to sort of not sell them technology, but sell them obviously technology in the background, but sell them the features and the services. So, but I do think I have not been able to find lately and

it's it's amazing how quickly this is happening. Every idea I have, it's like

happening. Every idea I have, it's like the AI is ahead of the idea.

>> Whereas before the team would be like, well, it's not really there yet. You

can't do that. Like, you don't understand. And now it seems like it's

understand. And now it seems like it's it's really just going so much faster than even I can sort of think.

>> Is that is that re-engaging you as a leader? I mean, it's been uh over a

leader? I mean, it's been uh over a decade. I feel like there's a lot of

decade. I feel like there's a lot of times when you know postacquisition you're at a large company. It can be exhausting. Maybe you want to go fish

exhausting. Maybe you want to go fish all day or something. I don't know if you fish, but um uh the uh but but the AI moment, it feels like it's been re-engaging a lot of business leaders.

Have you had that effect over the last year?

>> Oh, I totally like I there's so much we can do. We can build it so fast. Get it

can do. We can build it so fast. Get it

out. I mean, we launched today. I I was I live in Pacific Palisades, so I live in the fire zone.

>> Yeah. And um you know it's like yeah as you know like it was a crazy thing.

Yeah. So I was able to go from like living there seeing what happened there.

>> Yeah.

>> You know and then building a feature that we launched today which I think will hopefully be a a a way to assist uh in future fires which we did with Watchd Duty where now you'll get an alert as a

Ring customer if you're in a fire zone.

We had over 10,000 cameras in the Palisades area.

>> Yeah. And so now you now you would get an alert that says like would you like to join in to watch duty and give them sort of data and now we'll have an accurate up totheminute map from AI looking for embers looking for smoke and

and seeing where the fire is jumping.

And so now we can give real-time information to to everyone. Um and

hopefully >> Yeah. I want to talk I want to talk a

>> Yeah. I want to talk I want to talk a little bit Yeah. kind of a little bit about kind of some more sci-fi stuff.

I'm curious to kind of get your opinion on. So John and I John's in Pasadena.

on. So John and I John's in Pasadena.

I'm in Malibu. So this time last year, uh John like I I didn't have uh electricity, cell service, anything like that. John was like house that

that. John was like house that previously burned down.

>> Yeah. That my my house burned down in 2018 was fully rebuilt and I and 6 months after I bought it, I was like, "Oh, it's there's a reason it burned down." No, but the the it burned down

down." No, but the the it burned down because like an ember had floated from a far away fire and embers floated to like six houses in my neighborhood and all them just burned down. And luckily the

majority of the homes were fine. And I

was just thinking like there's got to be better um uh as we you know head into the kind of robotics era there has to be better. You know detection is one thing

better. You know detection is one thing but then actual response feels like an inevitable next step over time when if it's literally a single ember that can you know be the reason that a

multi-million dollar property burns to the ground. we should be able to detect

the ground. we should be able to detect that quickly and put it out without having, you know, a bunch of uh heroes in a truck drive, you know, 10 miles and come put it out with water, right? So,

how are you thinking about kind of like actual response and and is that even something that Ring would do or do you think there's other startups that should >> uh leverage your guys' detection?

>> So, um um this is where I'm like we were we worked with watch duty. So our our firewatch which is our system that we go into where AI is now watching your camera. You've put it in this mode and

camera. You've put it in this mode and said like yes I want to share this that then pipes right into watch duty. Watch

duty is what's happening. The command

center has watch duty up. Residents have

watchd duty on their app. So that is the centralized place where the map is forming on the fire. And I my hope is that and being in the fire myself I saw

that like a a a bush is smoldering next to a house and I could go put it out with my feet. You know, people are like, "How'd you put out the fire?" And I'm like, "I I literally would stamp on it until it was out, put some dirt on it."

Like, now if that had kept going and you know, I don't know like the exact incident, but like yes, that's what happens. Like that keeps going, then it

happens. Like that keeps going, then it burns a house down. Then that house starts up fire and puts out more embers.

And so if we can if if you could see that on a camera and and say, "Oh, wow."

Like there's this thing has jumped over to this area that's a quarter mile away and there's smoldering next to this house, you can put it out so much easier and deploy those resources. So I think that's why what's what's great about this one is we're bringing the

information in and then it's going to watch duty which is already being used by all of the people that are deploying the resources today.

>> Yeah. Uh are you excited about robots and drones as as responders to various home you know home security wildfires.

Uh you have Boston Dynamics.

>> Sorry. Amazon has a drone that flies around your house but is that a ring project or is that >> I was I built I built that.

>> You built that? No way. Tell us about that. How that

that. How that >> Yeah. And then and then specifically, so

>> Yeah. And then and then specifically, so Boston Dynamic has been showing off their new humanoids. I've been wanting somebody to build a a humanoid home security product forever. I'd love to

have a just a menacing. I I mean, deterren it's having, you know, various criminals knowing that most homes now have, you know, video.

>> I mean, just those signs that you put in the in the in the ground like that helps a little bit. But yeah,

I'd love to know more about drones and robotics. So there's different like

robotics. So there's different like different layers to drones. I mean so you have companies like Axon out there that are doing police drones and like literally are you know going miles. So

from a fire or you know responding to something there's that layer and then I think there's going to be layers down all the way to where we were which is like I'd say the complete other side which is inside the home. So having like a small drone inside the home that can

fly around see what's going on for security. Um I'm very bullish on the

security. Um I'm very bullish on the whole robotic space. it like in general I think AI has also you know what took what was so hard for us years ago when we were building this thing is now I

don't want to say it's easy but wow is it different like like there's a real tailwind behind us and so uh hopefully I mean you guys are you guys are in LA maybe I'll bring something by the studio in a few months.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love that.

>> Yeah. But but more specifically, is the idea of a humanoid pacing around your property is is that is is is that a reasonable deterrent? Is there

reasonable deterrent? Is there >> Have you built one? Is your

>> So So here the reason the reason I say it is cuz like when people are like, "Oh, you have a robot that's going to do uh your laundry." It's like, well, I

have a wonderful woman who does my laundry and I like employing this person and if you give me an $80,000 a year

robot or $80,000 robot that's going to depreciate and it's going to do a worse job, I'm like, I'm happy with the human at least for a, >> you know, the next few years, right?

Whereas hiring somebody to stand in your backyard >> all night long, >> all night long, >> that's a brutal job.

>> That's likeundred 50k a year. I don't know for somebody that's actually >> like worth worth.

>> And it's also it's a it's there's all these studies of security guards that they like their their effectiveness goes down like it literally like like algorith it's like it just falls off.

>> Um and you think about it's like just because you get so bored, right? Like

you're sitting doing the same thing every day, nothing's happening. So it's

like the effectiveness of a security guard is actually like a human security guard is very tough to be because you're not it's not normal that you're actually doing something on the security side. Uh

so I do think robotics I think at the higher end places enterprise maybe there will be you know humanoid uh security. I

we always look at it from high volume low cost like I'm I'm always on like the high volume lowcost residential side is where we start and so you know what can we build to bring robotics in into the

home and the neighborhood. um that's

affordable at high high volumes. I don't

think I don't think that's going to be a humanoid for a long time. That said,

>> if a humanoid costs $500 or something at some point and you could do it, of course, like it's great.

>> I was saying to John, the teleoperation potential here, which is like, hey, ring dissect something. I have somebody

dissect something. I have somebody somebody could be anywhere in the world.

suddenly they can pop into this embodied form factor and actually be a physical deterrent because I mean so many people in I mean LA like I talk to anybody that

live I mean the Palisades had like prior to the fire an insane break-in epidemic.

I have friends who would have multiple breakins in their home per year.

>> Super uh like elite operators that would come in, use metal detectors, figure out where your safes were, pull them out, throw them out in a truck. be like 5 minutes everything's gone. So there

needs like video is not enough for true deterrence like there's going to have to be physical >> and we have stuff like virtual security guard that is you can set it in like you

know for my house when I go to sleep I set virtual security guard on if someone comes on the property they're notified goes to a human so like there's response so I think that's I I I do think you're correct though in how you're looking at

it which is like it's not just technology like the idea that like just technology is going to solve everything is not correct I think we can use our IIA like our intelligent assistant to bring people into the scene when they

need to be on a limited basis. And when

you do that, I think I think that's how like for example what you're talking about the palisades like how you would reduce that crime or even try to zero out that crime.

>> Um which I I do believe we can do over the next few years with deploying the AI as well as merging it with other human responses.

>> Uh how is the enterprise side or the B2B side of the business evolved? Uh what's

the shape of it? when what trade-offs have you made to uh focus on particular niches or verticals? I'm interested to hear because obviously this technology applies everywhere.

>> Yeah. And so we really started focusing residential.

>> Uh that pulled us into small medium business. You know, we're in, you know,

business. You know, we're in, you know, over half a million small medium businesses use us. Uh we don't even know exactly all of them.

>> Let's go.

>> Um >> yeah, of course. They treat it like homes. They buy it as like a proumer

homes. They buy it as like a proumer effectively.

>> Exactly. So, we don't like exactly how many, but but we think it's, you know, it's definitely north of of call it half a million. Um, and you know, just like

a million. Um, and you know, just like it's like how the iPhone sort of slowly got into or not even that slowly, but got into the enterprise. Oh, yeah. Like

the iPhone like, you know, Apple didn't have a bunch of sales people go out and sell enterprise iPhone.

>> Yeah.

>> It's, you know, this the CEO brought the iPhone in that they had and said, I don't want this other >> not using it. I just

>> That's exactly right. And so I I think we've kind of gone slowly up the stack.

Today we actually launched a whole line of new cameras that are multi4K lens like really higherend. We call it the elite line.

>> And I I do think that will sort of get us just kind of similar to the iPhone getting into enterprise. I think it'll pull us in. Um and we'll see. We'll kind

of see how that goes. We also now have an app store that people can build custom applications >> because historically again pre AAI a camera did security like that was all it

could do in in sort of reasonable you know costefficient way. Now if you think about like a like a coffee shop if you have Ring cameras all over your coffee shop why isn't it telling you that a table was dirty and someone wanted to

sit why isn't it telling you about the line? Why isn't it telling you about

line? Why isn't it telling you about which team is the fastest? Why is it like like we're seeing it like it's all there and so being able to allow the long tail to be built by entrepreneurs um just like any marketplace or any app

store. I do think we're going to unlock

store. I do think we're going to unlock a lot of value for enterprise and small medium business that way. So I'm really excited. We actually just launched that

excited. We actually just launched that today too. We launched a bunch of stuff

today too. We launched a bunch of stuff today. So

today. So >> yeah. Yeah. I can imagine that being

>> yeah. Yeah. I can imagine that being really good. Have have you been uh

really good. Have have you been uh focused more on job sites than like large enterprise like software campuses?

that type of that type of security that feels like a maybe a separate problem, but I could imagine you getting there at some point.

>> Yeah. I mean, we like job sites have been great. We have a lot of solar

been great. We have a lot of solar powered cameras, so people use them.

They put them on like you'll see them on a pole like you'll see like one of we have cameras with lights. Yeah.

>> So, that's also good on job sites. Like

someone walks onto the job site at night, light goes on, cameras there. Um

we have a talk down so you can say like you're being recorded. So, like there's a lot like we have the virtual security guard. Sure.

guard. Sure.

>> Um we launched today one of the trailers. So, if you see those trailers

trailers. So, if you see those trailers that are out in the parking lots >> Yeah. um you know

>> Yeah. um you know >> usually solar panel on top and a bunch of cameras that that type of thing. I've

seen those.

>> Yeah. So we launched one that's more of I'd say like a product lower cost in that market. Again, high volume, low

that market. Again, high volume, low cost.

>> Um so we're going to >> I wouldn't be surprised over the next couple years we sort of really have a big dent in the enterprise, but we're not going to do it through the front door. We're not going to sort of

door. We're not going to sort of >> not responding to RFPs. We're not going to have an enterprise sales force. We're

going to just, you know, come in like the iPhone. Like let let it come in. I

the iPhone. Like let let it come in. I

feel like I feel like you could spin that up in a heartbeat at Amazon, but uh but it makes sense for the overall strategy. Uh one one last question u and

strategy. Uh one one last question u and we'll let you get back to CES. Um how do you think about uh camera sensor technology in security cameras and door

cameras? I was looking specifically uh

cameras? I was looking specifically uh at like a wildlife like a squirrel cam for my son who's four and a half and I was but I'm also like a camera nerd. We

use like, you know, Sony FX3s and full-frame uh cinema lenses here. And I

was like, I sort of want like a 4K, not just 4K, but like full-frame cinema lens hardened just to find my squirrels. And

it's like a ridiculous thing. I don't

know that that's a real real product, but how do you think about the the the learning curve and just the diffusion of just better camera sensors, better lenses into these commodity consumer

products over time?

>> Yeah. Yeah. So there's definitely a diminishing return. You know, you can go

diminishing return. You know, you can go to like a 20k or you know like K sensor and it's it's like not going to for a norm again >> very special applications. Yes. But for

like a normal home, it's not going to give you any more value. I do think 4K is a giant leap.

>> Um we now have a whole 4K line. With our

elite line, we have like now like multi multi 4K lenses that are are are um lensed down to the pixels. So it's

really pixel like what you really want to look at is pixel density like that.

It's actually not 4K 2K. It's like what is the pixel density? Yeah.

>> Um that the camera delivers. And then

that's also like the AI can only process what it sees. Like so the the camera can only be as smart as what it sees. I do

think the current line of 4K cameras we have right now for most residential use cases >> are as good as you're going to want at the price point. And then we'll just kind of let just like everything in

technology as AK sensors come down as bandwidth goes up we'll kind of keep adding that. But I do think we're right

adding that. But I do think we're right now kind of right at the edge of that curve of price. Um, you know, price to sort of quality, what you need.

>> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Jordy,

anything else?

>> No, this is super fun.

>> Thank you so much for coming on the show. This is a lot of fun.

show. This is a lot of fun.

>> Appreciate you making the time. Great to

meet you. Uh, happy customer.

>> Overnight success.

>> Thank you for uh >> Yeah, exactly. Overnight success.

Exactly.

>> It's amazing. It's amazing. Uh, well,

enjoy the rest of CES. Have a great rest.

>> Come back on soon >> and we'll talk to you soon.

>> Cheers.

>> Goodbye. Uh, quickly let me tell you about Reream one live stream 30 plus destinations. If you want to multiream,

destinations. If you want to multiream, go to reream.com.

>> We have an exciting set of next guests.

We have Jeff Lou and J.

>> Let's bring them in.

>> Joining TVP.

>> How are you guys doing? Welcome to the show.

>> Good. How are you? Thanks for having us.

>> We're good. Congratulations. Uh, can you set the table for us on the most recent raise? How did it come together? What's

raise? How did it come together? What's

the goal of the fund raise? How how are you describing the the strategy of the fund these days?

>> I mean, I'm happy to kick it off. I

mean, anti-fund um >> we think that boomer VCs are boring and just like there are new AI companies

>> and the next generation of American entrepreneurs like taking over just the like just like the business ecosystem.

>> I think that the same opportunity exists for VC. What was the original anti

for VC. What was the original anti anti-fund? Like how'd you come up with

anti-fund? Like how'd you come up with that name? Why? What are you anti?

that name? Why? What are you anti?

>> The boomers.

>> Yeah, a lot a lot of a lot of time we're both founders and we know how hard it is dealing with VTs and move slow and updates and not providing any value and they just become a nuisance. And I think

we were very founder first.

>> Um, and wanted to bring a value ad. I

think what we can bring is like distribution, marketing, all of these things, expertise on social media, advertising. We worked with uh obviously

advertising. We worked with uh obviously invested into OpenAI, but then work with the Sora team to help launch the product, >> brought in the content. So, that's just like one really good example.

>> But that's what we wanted to do is just be anti the establishment essentially and and bring something new to the table that wasn't just money. We believe money

is a commodity and that uh things beyond that are way more valuable in helping grow the companies >> and I think the double click on that

>> I think as founders and as VCs you have to be anti-establishment I mean we are disrupting existing large players if you don't want to take over existing large markets then you should not be in this

business >> so that should be what you expect as a founder but you should expect that from your investors if your investor is not as hungry as Maybe you choose other investors.

>> Uh what what can you say on fund strategy ownership targets? My my

assumption is that you you guys are multi-stage so you're kind of flexible.

I I imagine there's preede rounds that you'd be excited about leading but at the same time you don't mind participating in in a later stage round where it's a breakout company and you can you know add fuel to the fire.

>> Yeah. I think the way we think about it is that we've taken barbell but we call it extreme barbell. We want to be the first check and technical founders. Um,

and that's people just dropping out and where their first phone call will put 100 250k just put them in the business.

Um, or we identify and and built, you know, really great relationship with like Sam Alman and Mark Shin of Open AI and we want to support what we think

will be generational defining companies.

>> Yeah. And I think everything in the middle is very hard >> and I think we know where we're strong and where we're potentially, you know, weaker.

>> Yeah. Tell me more about this Sora partnership or or or that project like how did that come together? What was the reaction? Uh I feel like

reaction? Uh I feel like >> Yeah. Did you hesitate at all about

>> Yeah. Did you hesitate at all about giving your name and likeness? I mean,

you and Sam Alman, you guys kind of jumped first and I think it went it went surprisingly fine, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Uh >> yeah. But yeah, what was the reaction?

>> yeah. But yeah, what was the reaction?

>> Yeah. So the um they wanted to build a social media platform and we met at the inauguration with Sam Alman. We were

like talking about how there needs to be a new social media platform, what does that look like, etc. And so we just started having idea brainstorms and it eventually turned into what what Sora is and then just helping them on the

functionality. you know, me and my

functionality. you know, me and my brother's expertise of however many years we've been making content, all the little dials, triggers, change this button, change that button, make this

easier, boom, boom, boom. Th this is what fans are looking for. Super

detailed stuff. Um, but then once it finally came to to launch, um, yeah, it was it I gave my name, image, and

likeness, and I knew it was going to get crazy. I I wasn't uh hesitant. Um and it

crazy. I I wasn't uh hesitant. Um and it just caught like fire and obviously we saw the the results and what happened and um it was a pretty phenomenal

experience in marketing and like showcasing what the internet loves these days.

>> Yeah. One of our portfolio companies, archive.com, tracked a billion impressions in six days of Jake >> Sora. So many sense. What advice are you

>> Sora. So many sense. What advice are you giving to uh folks who want to become creators in 2026? It feels like a completely different era from the Vine

days. At the same time, there's some

days. At the same time, there's some lessons that never change. But how are you seeing it?

>> Yeah, I would say authenticity is everything. I think showing your whole

everything. I think showing your whole entire life is the key if you're a new and up and cominging creator. Like the

struggles, what you're going through.

Tell tell your audience about financially what you're doing or what you're having to do. Um talk to them about your ups, your downs. Share with

them your your life story. And then you just have to be posting and posting. And

I think a lot of people aren't good at editing like simple stuff, captions, music, video, timing, how long is the video? Um so it is very difficult and

video? Um so it is very difficult and you're competing with every single platform. As a content creator, you're

platform. As a content creator, you're competing as a content creator. I'm

technically competing against Netflix.

Why are they going to >> watch, you know, some Jake Paul Instagram videos versus going on onto Netflix? And so, you have to realize

Netflix? And so, you have to realize that you're actually playing one of the hardest games. And people think it's

hardest games. And people think it's easy, but it's actually a very very um technical thing and you have to have a certain skill set to be able to do it.

And you have to be entertaining. You

have to be providing something that's a niche that no one has ever seen before.

We we have the Paul brothers. We have

the speeds. We have Mr. Beast doing his videos. We have Whistling Diesel blowing

videos. We have Whistling Diesel blowing up trucks and cars. So you What are you doing that?

>> Yeah. John has talked about this. You

You used to be able to get a million views by just having a Ferrari. Now you

blow it up.

>> The game's changed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it

went from it went from uh have the car or rent the car to uh give the car away where you take the tax deduction to now you must destroy it.

>> How do you uh so so 2025 there was a lot of founders doing like ragebait marketing.

>> Uh this style of like using rage bait in content was popularized on YouTube and various social media platforms. I would say Jake, you've done this very very

effectively at times of being under knowing I'm going to put out this video.

It's going to make a lot of people mad, but a lot of people are going to enjoy it too and they're going to become fans and I'm okay to alienate some people. Do

you h how how have you kind of like evolved like that even like what is your framework? What is the right amount of

framework? What is the right amount of rage to to generate in an audience and and and because you really need to thread the needle?

>> Yeah. So the way I look at entertainment is invoking emotion. You want to invoke fear sadness happiness joy.

>> That's good. I like good.

>> Not just fear, sadness. But yeah, you need all of them. You need all of them.

>> That's what I'm committed to. And I

don't care who likes it or not. That's

what I'm doing. I posted a video where like I was acting like I was depressed like traveling around the world in like my jet and on vacation. I was like, "What is life?" I was like, "What is

life even about?" And I was trolling and like my friends text me like, "Yo, bro, are you okay?" I'm like, "Yeah, bro."

But the video got like 30 million views cuz everyone was like, "Oh, this is like I'm kind of sad, too." Yeah. What is

life even about? And just different random things like that. So just be committed as an entertainer to invoking emotion and you can't care about the result of what anyone thinks because at the end of the day people will come back because they feel something. That's the

key.

>> For sure. Someone asked me to ask you uh all time alltime record for bench press.

>> I've done 315 >> u like three times.

>> There we go.

>> There we go.

What uh what do you find yourself when you're talking with founders uh bringing up stories from like the fight game and and different cuz I cuz I met like

>> building a company kind of can feel at times like getting waking up opening your email getting punched in the face maybe an investor is rejecting you a customer went with a competitor etc etc you're pretty used to getting punched in

the face and and chewing glass at this point and I imagine some of those learnings uh carry over.

>> Yeah. 100%. You know, I say after boxing, everything is easy because you're actually physically having to fight every day and taking the licks and

punches and you have to bob and weave.

Sometimes after the first round, you go back to the corner. Boxing is a great analogy for life in your companies. You

have to go back to the corner, talk to your coaches, reset, come out for the for the next round, and you can be losing a fight and still win in the end.

Um, not me against Anthony Joshua. My

jaw is broken. But um,

>> I'm sorry.

>> But you're still yapping.

>> You're still here. People were

wondering, hey, can he talk on the show?

And you know, here it's proof.

>> Yeah, I have a little bit of a lisp right now because of it, but um, we're just pushing through. This is store Jake actually.

>> This is the AI version of me. I tapped

in.

>> Yeah. Uh, can you talk maybe both of you could uh talk to me a little bit about focus? You're both involved in a ton of

focus? You're both involved in a ton of stuff, you know, boxing, content, investing, building companies. Uh, at

the same time, yeah, W. At the same time, I think of you as uh very insightful early on on the importance of daily work, daily repetition. The it's

everyday, bro, is a meme, but I actually think it's deeply insightful and and the key to many successes. And I credit a lot of the growth that we've had here with becoming a daily show instead of

just this show that is every once in a while. Um, and I'm wondering how you

while. Um, and I'm wondering how you deal with focus and and when when is the time to go all in and do something every single day.

>> Yeah, you have to figure out that org chart for yourself in terms of what do you know feeds the rest of the ecosystem

the most. Um, and for me that's boxing,

the most. Um, and for me that's boxing, but I look to Elon Musk as an example, right? How he's buil built some of the

right? How he's buil built some of the biggest companies in the world and he's managing all of these teams and he's devoted and, you know, sleeps on the couch in the offices. You have to be

that level of committed and it's a nonstop working hustling you know, whatever it is that you you have to do. But I I think the importance

of having a great team around you allows you to be able to do um a lot of things.

So I have Jeff um that boxing fuels the rest of the ecosystem, the content, the businesses, the attention, the all of these things, the networking, the

connections. So um then Jeff can put his

connections. So um then Jeff can put his priority as antifund, etc. And it all turns into this great flywheel. Uh, but

it's definitely just staying committed and working harder than, you know, anyone else that's doing it or just as hard and just really checking the temperature if you're actually doing

that.

>> Have you guys uh have you guys done any recent deals?

>> Um, some the most recent things that were excited. I was going to say

were excited. I was going to say >> you're getting happy dad. They just

happen to crack open a happy.

>> Yes, we are.

>> Yes, we're happy in ambassadors and happy dad. Uh, obviously the milk boys

happy dad. Uh, obviously the milk boys are are homies and bros are are great.

So, great operating team. Plus, I think that influencer le CPG play I think is >> yeah, >> challenging, but like the very very best operator, the best celebrities we like to partner with. So, another example of

that is Khloe Kardashian's Cloud Popcorn and obviously our own business is W >> um >> Yeah. What's your guys' framework for or

>> Yeah. What's your guys' framework for or for for investing in celebrity brands?

Because people have the sense that oh, se they they they see celebrity brands that work and they just assume that all celebrities they don't see the Travis Scott with his canned cocktail brand

that that uh looked like it had a lot of potential but didn't go anywhere. And

there's a bunch of other examples like that. I'm curious like what you guys

that. I'm curious like what you guys think the formula is. Is is is a creator limited to >> you know one brand over a 10-year period? Do you do you see multibrand

period? Do you do you see multibrand strategy emerging? What do you think?

strategy emerging? What do you think?

>> Yeah, I think it's I mean similar I would say similar assessment as a normal investment right 90% of startups fail.

So I think we just like look at that statistical norm and just expect and even for a celebrity letter or not to just have that statistical pattern. Um

but then I think after that it looks at but what you do have is that you have a unfair distribution advantage and you need to make sure that the market in which that distribution uh focuses actually makes sense

>> right like I think happy Dad is a great example where Milk Boys to me is like the fat broer of internet I don't know they're like 30 now so they

um >> but but to me it that that is a very good founder market product fit.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. And and I think if it's celebrity or not, you just look at that thing as an asset just like there's a technical advantage. Why are OpenAI researchers

advantage. Why are OpenAI researchers just like raising a ton of money out the gate? Because like there is an

gate? Because like there is an assumption that they have some technical ability to have to find product market fit. So it's the same thing with with a

fit. So it's the same thing with with a celebrity. It's just like very

celebrity. It's just like very distributionoriented.

Um and I think it's maybe a little bit less quantitative. It's it's maybe more

less quantitative. It's it's maybe more taste driven. I think that's where I

taste driven. I think that's where I think Jake I I value and I think Logan as well where they have seen over you know 10 15 years of being famous how many people that have come and gone as

famous people.

>> I think it's super rare to be top of field and relevant across multiple platforms for such a long time. So I

think >> those are patterns we we we pull out.

>> What about the launch of W? I thought it was interesting because you didn't do what I thought you would do, which is direct to consumer purely just sell just to the audience. You came out of the

gate with a big retail partnership. And

I think maybe some influencers or just celebrity type people, they forget that the CEOs of big retail establishments might be in their audience too. They

might be able to get that introduction to Walmart sooner or sooner. And I was wondering how deliberate that strategy was. As you reflect on that strategy,

was. As you reflect on that strategy, would you recommend it to someone else in that position?

>> Yeah, well, 100%. I think playing across the the board uh also is key, but we wanted to go retail first and we saw the success of that with my brother's brand

with Prime and the accessibility of, you know, all of our fans walking through the these stores on a daily basis. I

would say a lot of my fan base is a Walmart shopper, etc. So, um, yeah, being able to have those contact points

digitally, but also in person and people seeing the things in stores and, um, yeah, being able to have retail, DTOC, all of that, I think is is super

important. But we decided to go with the

important. But we decided to go with the retail first strategy and it's worked out great.

>> Part of I think the way that you guys have maintained uh, such relevancy is just reinventing yourself. Obviously,

you reinventing going from a YouTuber to a fighter. Do you think about uh

a fighter. Do you think about uh fighters have notoriously short careers?

I mean, I'm sure you'll you'll be able to come out of the woodwork when you're 60 and do the Tyson thing, you know, lock up another 100 million pay-per-view, but I imagine at some point maybe maybe in your 40s, you'll

reinvent yourself again. Do you think about are are you thinking 5 10 years out around how you want to reinvent yourself again or are you just tunnel vision on boxing at the moment and and

nothing else matters?

>> No. Yeah, definitely no. Um I I naturally will lead myself into politics without a doubt. Like it's

>> it's within me. I'm passionate about it.

I I follow it very closely behind the scenes and I try to speak up as much as I can to help my audience better understand it and um to state my opinion on things. Uh but I don't know what that

on things. Uh but I don't know what that exactly looks like.

>> Are you thinking like AISAR or president? What what

president? What what >> controller of a local city?

>> I just want to help the the world and I know it's needed um especially in the generations moving forward and um that's you know something that Charlie Kirk was doing. I don't know if it's something

doing. I don't know if it's something that looks like that, but it is needed and um it's very important. And I think since the beginning of my whole entire career, I knew I wanted to help kids and

help the world. And that's what I've done with my charity and boxing bullies and renovating gyms and all of these things, but I know I can do it at an even greater level. And so, working on

some things in that area in the future will definitely be exciting.

>> Well, chat's saying Vance Paul 2028. So,

Let's go.

>> Well, thank you.

>> Awesome. Well, great great to have you both on. I'm sure you'll be back on soon

both on. I'm sure you'll be back on soon and uh yeah, congrats on the new fund uh and the recent fight and >> portfolio. They got everything in there.

>> portfolio. They got everything in there.

>> Yeah, you guys pretty much uh got them all. So, uh it's been uh very cool to

all. So, uh it's been uh very cool to watch.

>> Fantastic.

>> Thank you guys. We'll talk to you soon.

>> Talk soon.

>> Goodbye.

>> Let me tell you about MongoDB. Choose a

database built for flexibility and scale with best-in-class embedding models and rerankers. MongoDB has what you need to

rerankers. MongoDB has what you need to build what's next. Our next guest is Matt from Doctronic. He's the co-founder and CEO.

>> Here we go.

>> And we're going to welcome him to the stream.

>> What's happening, Matt? How are you?

>> Can you hear me? Not yet.

>> I don't know something happened with the AirPods.

>> There we go. There we go. AirPods.

AirPods are rough. They create this split-second delay. Now it feels like

split-second delay. Now it feels like >> Oh, I didn't know that.

>> We're face to face now. Uh, how you doing? Great to meet.

doing? Great to meet.

>> Yeah, great to meet you, too. Thanks for

having me on.

>> Uh, first time on the show. Would love a quick introduction on yourself and the company.

>> Yeah. Yeah, sure. So, I'm Matt. Um, I've

been building startups for a long time.

25 years at this point. Built a big >> success.

>> Yeah. Right. Big built a big e-commerce unicorn called Moto Opera Andy a long time ago. Y

time ago. Y >> a lot of startups computerized from Carnegie Melon. Um, doctronic is the

Carnegie Melon. Um, doctronic is the number one AI doctor, right? So got 20 million patients or or 20 million consults so far, 2 million patients.

>> Um, wow.

>> And we're an AI doctor where anybody can come for free, talk to AI, etc. And we have a tele health practice behind it too. So you can talk to AI, it's going

too. So you can talk to AI, it's going to diagnose you at the end of that. You

can take all that information, full diagnosis, full treatment plan, etc. Uh, and talk to our doctors. So it's a a pretty straightforward simple process.

Um our doctors are are available 247 licensed in all 50 states.

>> Uh when when did you when did you start the company and and what is uh what's been the primary kind of distribution method? Is this something that people

method? Is this something that people just they end up they have a pressing need. They want medical advice,

need. They want medical advice, guidance, they're going to find you. Uh

or are you selling through you know how are you actually getting 20 million people using the product?

>> Yeah. So we're direct to consumer. We

launched in September of 23, so been around for a while. Actually, when we launched, there was this open question, uh, you know, did anyone want to talk to an AI about their health? It was kind of an unknown. It was, you know, early

an unknown. It was, you know, early early in the the GPT4 days. Um,

>> yeah, >> and it turns out it's a resounding yes, right? People really want to talk about

right? People really want to talk about their health. The other question was,

their health. The other question was, could you make an AI accurate enough to practice medicine, right? Um, and it turns out you can. Uh, you can't just use the foundational models. You have to do a lot of a lot of uh work with them.

Um, and so we're direct to consumer. We

get a huge amount of our traffic from just organic search. Um, you know, we get 100 150,000 people hitting the site a week. Um, and then of course we're

a week. Um, and then of course we're doing social networking, paid stuff, etc. >> How much more do people when when when people have a doctor in their pocket, do

they are they going are they effectively talking to a doctor or an agent that's acting as a doctor? Is it is it 50 times more? Is it a hundred times more than

more? Is it a hundred times more than they usually would? Because I mean I think everybody's experience like you know researching it was you know doing a search adding Reddit to the end. Now

people might try a foundation model and it's obviously giving a disclaimer. Well

we're a foundation model. We can't

actually give you know medical advice.

>> Do you have to put a disclaimer like that or or still or >> how does it actually work?

>> Yeah it's super interesting. So so first off let's let's talk about like how often people use it. So, I think the the stat is the average American sees their primary care doctor three times a year, which is, you know, kind of crazy. And

of course, there just aren't enough primary care doctor >> for the guys out there. They're like

three times a three times in my life.

>> Yeah. Right. I haven't seen mine in years.

My wife is a doctor, which makes it a little bit easier. But yeah, you know, um but but my wife doesn't want to help me anyway, right? That's that's not something you ask your wife. But but

yeah, so uh people are using the system multiple times a month, right? So, we're

close to weekly active users for a lot a lot of people. Interesting. So, the

question as to like what what would happen if you had a real doctor in your pocket is I think you talk to them about everything. You talk to them about how

everything. You talk to them about how you wake up in the morning, your back is sore, you know, you have herniated discs. Is it worse than a couple days

discs. Is it worse than a couple days ago? You don't know, but you talk,

ago? You don't know, but you talk, right? And it slowly gathers all this

right? And it slowly gathers all this information about you, right? Um, so so it's certainly changing the way people are are interacting. uh as far as

disclaimers go and such, we are so our AI for most situations outside of the state of Utah right now doesn't practice medicine. So it's going to talk to you

medicine. So it's going to talk to you and it's going to always say look >> in Utah in Utah you guys it does practice medicine.

>> Wait, what?

>> Yeah, that's the cool part. That's what

we announced today. I'll tell you about that in a second.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So just so outside of Utah >> Yeah.

>> You know, let's say you're on a diagnostic pathway and you go through the diagnostic agents, etc. Right. The

AI is going to kind of come to this consensus and they're all going to say, "Look, it's probably one of these four things, right? And here are four

things, right? And here are four treatment plans for each of those and here's a note that you can take to your doctor and we're not practicing medicine. You can also take this to our

medicine. You can also take this to our doctors. This is all just for you to

doctors. This is all just for you to take to your doctors. It's a tool to help you communicate with your doctors and it's more accurate than chatbt and Gemini and all those because we're feeding it all sorts of you know this

massive corpus of medical documents that our doctors have written for the LMS and we've got lots of agents. We can get into details some other time, right?

>> Um but it doesn't practice medicine >> at all. It's going to just do you think that uh this aspect of Gen AI is still kind of underrated by the world? I had a

kind of a weird uh cool moment this week where uh my my one-year-old wasn't sleeping that well. My wife was about to hire a sleep consultant that we had

hired for our first kid. She started

talking with an LLM and it basically within 24 hours had like got the one-year-old on a sleep schedule that was working again. And that was such a cool moment because I was like, we were happy. Historically, it was so worth it

happy. Historically, it was so worth it to hire a sleep consultant because if your kids's not sleeping great and they can and you get them sleeping great, it's like life-changing.

>> Um, but now but most families are not going to spend $1,000 to have some expert come and coach them on sleep schedules and things like that. So, it

feels like underrated at a society level. People just see the slop in their

level. People just see the slop in their different social feeds and they're like, "This is dumb. Why are we building data centers?"

centers?" Um, and yet >> I think you're right. I think it's totally underrated. I read the other day

totally underrated. I read the other day that 20% of Chachi PT traffic is health related and for for things like that helping you sleep train your child.

>> Yeah.

>> Awesome. Like use Chat GPT. It's great,

right? But when you actually want to start getting into medicine like like real actual medicine, Chhat GPT can't do that. It can't. I mean, even if it

that. It can't. I mean, even if it could, right? It probably shouldn't,

could, right? It probably shouldn't, right? But it's not going to help you

right? But it's not going to help you understand a prescription and what the dosage should be and what the schedule should be. If you have high cholesterol,

should be. If you have high cholesterol, it's going to say you probably need to take a statin and then you need to get some exercise, which is great and true, right? And that's just helping you with

right? And that's just helping you with your health. That's not practicing

your health. That's not practicing medicine right?

>> Yeah.

>> Um and which, you know, again, outside of the state of Utah, we're not doing that either, >> but we we have a partnership with the state of Utah now uh with um with the

Utah AI Learning Lab.

>> And so that launched a couple weeks ago, but we just announced it. So, our AI is allowed to legally renew prescriptions for residents of the state of Utah with no oversight from doctors.

>> Wow.

>> I see uh uh Tusk Ventures on the cap table and I think the goat >> I mean Fe Lee amazing. Um but uh I Fe Lee signals like you know what you're

doing technically. Uh Tusk Ventures

doing technically. Uh Tusk Ventures signals like this is going to be a city by city, statebystate like battle. At

least if for those who don't know, Bradley Tusk uh worked with Uber and and did a lot of the on the ground athlete hall of fame.

>> Exactly. Regulatory athlete. And so I'm wondering like do you think that there needs to be regulatory change on a state-by-state basis? Is there a federal

state-by-state basis? Is there a federal preeemption discussion in the mix? Like

where does all this go? Um and and what what are there any like keys to the success for you uh on the regulatory side?

>> That's an awesome question. So

historically, not even historically, currently, states regulate the practice of medicine, right? If you want to practice medicine in a state, you get licensed by that state's medical board.

>> Yeah.

>> We believe that what we're doing is practicing medicine. Obviously, the

practicing medicine. Obviously, the state of Utah agrees. Yeah.

>> Uh and so we have been >> kind of mitigated from the laws in this AI sandbox with Utah that prevent non-licensed doctors from practicing medicine.

>> We think this applies to other states, too. And other states have regulatory

too. And other states have regulatory sandboxes for AI, and we're talking with them as well. Uh, it's just that Utah is super innovation friendly and forward thinking. They're the first. They're the

thinking. They're the first. They're the

best. They're really good at this.

The state's right.

>> Okay.

>> What What do What do doctors think about Doctrronic? Are they happy that they're

Doctrronic? Are they happy that they're patients? Because the patients coming

patients? Because the patients coming in, they're informed that the Doctrronic already kind of summarized the symptoms and the conversations, gets them up to speed quickly, helps them process more,

see more patients themselves. We we see like a 10x efficiency in our doctors in treating patients because the AI has done all of the work gathering things.

My co-founder who is a doctor, I'm not, but he is. He says it's like having the best chief resident in the world seeing every single patient for you. It just it just does all that work, but then it says, look, it's it's one of these four

things. You you figure it out, but it's

things. You you figure it out, but it's almost always the first one, right? The

AI is just that good.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I I've had a couple funny experiences lately. I went to the

experiences lately. I went to the pharmacy, picked up some uh medicine. My

wife asked me to ask the pharmacist how to use it. And I watched the pharmacist, you know, just use an LLM to get the answer. I was like, "Wait a minute. I I

answer. I was like, "Wait a minute. I I

have a more expensive plan. I should

just be doing this myself." So, the demand is is >> Wait, you're not even using premium plus?

>> Yeah. Wait, wait, you didn't even run the deep research report on this one.

Um, but do you think that there's is there going to be some sort of stop gap where there's some sort of hybrid where you have a human in the loop to accelerate progress? Do you already have

accelerate progress? Do you already have that? What what role do you see as like

that? What what role do you see as like uh building out the the the hybrid uh portion of the business in certain states that are maybe less uh aggressive about moving quickly on this?

>> Yeah, there's certainly a place to use those efficiencies you get from AI in the states that are are not able to move that quickly. Yeah. Um, our hope is that

that quickly. Yeah. Um, our hope is that that hybrid approach won't last for long because we will prove that this is effective and works really well. It

saves the taxpayer money. It makes

people healthier. It reduces costs, right? The healthare system is

right? The healthare system is enormously complex and far too expensive. There aren't enough primary

expensive. There aren't enough primary care doctors. No primary care doctor

care doctors. No primary care doctor wants to renew prescriptions. Nobody

went to med school saying, "Gosh, I hope I can renew prescriptions." So, I I I sure hope that we'll be able to move faster, but there are definitely hybrid approaches. We're already doing that

approaches. We're already doing that with a bunch of our our our video visits in in other states that don't allow for this.

>> Sure. Sure.

>> Uh you have a background building in e-commerce, so a little bit of a tangent, but I was curious what you expect to see at the intersection of of LLMs and commerce. This year

specifically, it feels like last year people started discovering and doing a lot of product research using LLM. It

feels like this year will be the year of like >> right >> what's that?

>> Like I said, "I sure hope we're shopping in chat GPT." Yeah.

>> Or or or Gemini, right? I should be able to buy something from there.

>> I shouldn't have to go to Amazon. I

should just be able to click buy.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Love to see that.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Something as simple as that.

Amazon's like, "Actually, we like our search ad revenue business quite a lot.

>> They'll figure it out. I'm sure they'll have their own LLMs or something like that." Um what what do you think about

that." Um what what do you think about uh like the actual feedback loop on the I feel like there's like the value of medicine is not just treating the

patient but then filtering those results back into future research efforts to update on what's working not both on the individual patient level and also on the

societal level. Um how do you think

societal level. Um how do you think about improving the system over time? Um

it's a little bit different than just just coding in my opinion. But uh how are you thinking about uh you know successive interactions with with the with the patient?

>> Yeah. I mean you know AIs can learn more and remember more about patients anyway.

And the funny thing is you know we measure NPS with the AI and with our human doctors >> and we have great human doctors right like we we we pay a lot. We hire the best.

>> Yeah.

>> Everybody still likes the AI a little bit more. Mhm.

bit more. Mhm.

>> Uh that said, >> I don't think that AI is going to replace that deep human interaction.

>> Yeah, of course.

>> Right. Like like there's there's this easy 80% of these wrote interactions that you have with a doctor where you're just like, "Look, my kid's sick. I need

an antibiotic." Yep.

>> Let's just figure out which one is most appropriate. Let's get the AI to handle

appropriate. Let's get the AI to handle that.

>> Uh I I don't you know, specialists diagnosing chronic conditions.

>> Yeah. Yeah, people are always going to be >> at the same time with that if if the kid's sick, they need antibiotics. I I

feel like you should still maybe bring them into a clinic, get some some data that can't be accessed on the phone. And

so, doesn't that lead you to some sort of uh like B2B scenario or somewhere where you're acting more as a a co-pilot than uh you know, a BTOC company? Do you

think you'll get there or is that something that's like adjacent?

>> I I think that's adjacent to where we are right now. I I guess I guess the way I think of it is um we are pretty well positioned to handle anything that can happen during tellahalth visits right

now.

>> That's kind of our goal, right? There

there's already this a bit of a line drawn that said these are these are things that can happen with tellahalth.

>> Uh and so I mean you're right there are certainly cases where you just need to see someone. We we had one the other

see someone. We we had one the other day. I mean they happen all the time but

day. I mean they happen all the time but we talked about one today. Someone had

an appendicitis, right?

>> The AI said, "Look, you you need to go to an ER. You have an appendicitis and it's about to rupture." And the person still chose to see our doctor. And it

was great because the doctor said, "I totally agree with the AI, but this is pretty emergent. Like, you probably

pretty emergent. Like, you probably should go to the ER and they did." And

they were taken care of and and it happens. Yeah.

happens. Yeah.

>> Um, so we're not going to try to uh to do those things that we can't do via a tele visit anyway.

>> Yeah, that makes sense. Uh, well,

congratulations on all the progress.

Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

>> Yeah, very cool.

>> And I hope you have a great >> Are you the Are you the uh first AI licensed to practice law or >> or sorry, not law, medicine, medicine.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> That is that is wild. That uh

>> uh I feel like Yeah, I I imagine in 5 years we'll look back on today as a as a very big moment. So, congrats to you and the whole team. It's great to meet you.

>> Congratulations.

>> Thanks so much.

>> We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye.

>> Appreciate it.

>> Let me tell you about Gusto. The unified

platform for payroll, benefits, and HR built to evolve with modern small and medium-sized businesses.

>> Gusto, >> let's send Lulu.

>> We'll bring them in in a couple minutes.

In the meantime, I'm going to tell you about Cognition, the software. Uh the uh they're makers of Devon, the AI software engineer. Uh crush your backlog with

engineer. Uh crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team.

>> We have uh some breaking news.

>> What's the breaking news? from two hours ago from XAI. They've raised a $20 billion series E >> 20 billion.

>> XAI completed its upside series E funding round exceeding the 15 billion targeted round size and raised 20 billion. Uh investors include Valor

billion. Uh investors include Valor Equity Partners, Stepstone Group, Fidelity Management, >> Antonio Gracio, Investment Authority, MGX, and Baron

Capital Group. What is Baron Capital

Capital Group. What is Baron Capital Group? Is that is that Baron Trump? No.

Group? Is that is that Baron Trump? No.

>> Since 1982. Okay.

Not Baron Trump. Strategic investors in the round include Nvidia and Cisco.

Let's give it up for Cisco. Investments

getting in the mix.

>> We're still working out the kinks with this gong. We're figuring out that that

this gong. We're figuring out that that was that was a clean hit. That was a clean hit. Uh but we're figuring out the

clean hit. Uh but we're figuring out the new kind of method how to strike it effectively. Uh but that was a great

effectively. Uh but that was a great hit. Uh 20 uh XAI says 2025 was a year

hit. Uh 20 uh XAI says 2025 was a year of breakthrough momentum where the XAI team advanced a multitude of key initiatives including data centers, Grock 4, Grock voice, user metrics, and

Grock imagine. I'm very excited to see

Grock imagine. I'm very excited to see what Grock um pulls off uh Grock and the XAI team pull off this year. They are

highly highly motivated, highly capitalized, crushing it on the infrastructure side and a lot more to come. Well, before we bring in our

come. Well, before we bring in our guests, let me tell you about Phantom Cash. Fund your wallet without exchanges

Cash. Fund your wallet without exchanges or middlemen and spend with the Phantom Card. You can see Bitcoin is back up

Card. You can see Bitcoin is back up $93,000.

>> There we go.

>> Uh, and let me also tell you about Railway. Railway simplifies software

Railway. Railway simplifies software development. Web apps, servers, and

development. Web apps, servers, and databases run in one place with scaling, monitoring, and security built in. And

with that, we are ready to bring in our guest. Um Elon is saying that we've

guest. Um Elon is saying that we've entered the singularity. So he is fully AGI pill, fully singularity pill, >> Lulu singular, >> GDP grow%

at at with GDP growing 100% a year. 20

billion for XAI in series E seems like a steal.

>> How about 200 billion?

>> How about 200 billion? I I'm dying to see the the user metrics. Eventually

people will pull out um we'll pull out Why are we doing bubble talk?

Welcome to the stream. We have Lulu.

>> Welcome. Uh we have David Senra back in the studio for this seventh time. Good

to see you. Welcome to the show. Uh

>> guys, >> how long are you in LA, Lulu?

>> Um it's a matter of hours.

>> Matter of hours.

>> It's like 28 hours.

>> 28 hours.

>> Would neither of you like a happy dad?

>> What is it? Is it weird?

>> Oh, it's a fruit punch. Glutenfree

punch.

>> It's a fruit punch with 5% alcohol.

>> I'd like to see it for the ingredient.

It's the latest anti-und John Shahi.

>> I think I'm the wrong demo for happy dad. I don't think it's funny.

dad. I don't think it's funny.

>> It is. I think it's a mind.

>> Jeff described boy unc fat boy brand.

>> It's a hilarious way to describe.

>> I am the right demo.

>> We're all We're all I turned I turned 30 over the holiday.

>> I was going to ask. Yeah, I could tell.

>> Yeah. Yeah, you can tell.

>> No, it's just the lack of looks maxing.

Um, Lulu, take us through the most recent post, Burning Up the Internet, 3 million views. Uh, give us the pitch.

million views. Uh, give us the pitch.

>> Okay. Um, the pitch is that every year has a big theme. All right, let's get Thank you.

>> There you go.

>> All right. Every year has a big theme for where narrative alpha is going to go >> and you decide it as >> and then I share what it is and then hopefully we do the thing. Um, so in 2024 it was going direct. That was where

the alpha was coming from because everybody was going through three different layers of intermediaries. Then

last year it became just grab attention for some people at all cost. So that's

when you saw the cinematic launch videos. That's when you saw the kind of

videos. That's when you saw the kind of clueification. No,

clueification. No, >> it's too many too many stop going direct. I said I saidul

direct. I said I saidul stop going direct. Some of you are not good on mike. Some of you just just >> some people should go direct some of the time. Well, well, I I also said I said,

time. Well, well, I I also said I said, uh, if everyone has a cinematic launch video, no one does. Like, it just it got to the point where it's like, I'll just read I'll just go to your website and I'll see what you do. I don't need to

see the the the 50 >> and they're all kind of the same. So,

companies were spending six figures on these cinematic launch videos. No, they

are. They're like 150k.

>> Um, and they're all the same. So,

anyway, >> how much did you guys spend on yours?

>> Two grand.

>> Two grand.

>> These are included a helicopter rental.

Yeah, >> of tour handling the fantastic iconic. Yeah.

Value per dollar off the charts. So this

year the narrative alpha is going to come from doing real things that are enduring that are hard that are going to stick around and then just to keep doing that for a really long period of time.

So, I liken it to going to the gym. Um,

instead of like fasting for 72 hours and not drinking water and then showing up for the bodybuilding competition one time, just go to the gym three times a week and do somewhat normal stuff, but do that for infinity weeks and then

you'll be a fit person.

>> Which founder is doing the best version of that right now or the best job at that right now?

>> There. Okay, there's a bunch. Um, Toby

Luca. Um,

>> it's hard to pick a favorite.

>> It's hard to pick a favorite. Toby, look

at I'm I'm biased being on the board of Shopify, but I I think if I were to look objectively, Toby is somebody who doesn't try to do the flashy thing. He's

actually kind of averse and nauseous for trying to do the flashy thing.

>> He's showing much more of his personality, too, on his Twitter feed lately.

>> Yeah. Well, he also can't not. You know,

some of these people, Brian Armstrong is another example. My favorite Toby story

another example. My favorite Toby story is he did an obscure Starcraft podcast where he just is a Starcraft fan and so he just went on and talked about Starcraft strategy and that was a cool

like going direct moment years ago. This

happened like seven years ago, but it just felt like, okay, he's a lot of comm's people would probably tell him like, "No, stay on message. Like, you

should be talking about Shopify." But

he's like, "Look, there's probably people in that audience. Also, I'm just having fun talking about Starcraft with some people that are interested in Starcraft." And so, he did that. And it

Starcraft." And so, he did that. And it

made for me, it made him a much realer CEO. It just kind of painted a broader

CEO. It just kind of painted a broader picture of who he is.

>> And the Starcraft stuff directly translates into how he runs Shopify. He

runs Shopify like a Zerg sword. That's

like his corporate strategy.

>> And >> you know what's funny? What?

>> I had breakfast with Kareem from RAMP.

Do you guys know about RAM?

>> Yeah, we're >> uh yesterday and we talked about Toby and his using like his love of video games for how he actually runs Shopify.

We had this conversation yesterday morning.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> I think more and more people are feeling that with agents now where it's like it feels like you're puppeteering.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Can I say a few more things about this by the way?

>> Okay. So, so the overarching theme is to do real things that are going to be enduring and lasting.

>> Couple of the sub things under that.

What what makes things enduring and lasting? One is beauty is back.

lasting? One is beauty is back.

>> Being beautiful is allowed again. We've

had a decade look maxing for companies.

Pretty privilege for companies.

>> Like the same way that people get better treatment and they're literally seen as um Tyler's smirking cuz he's like this is my era.

The same way that people are seen as more competent, more intelligent, more trustworthy if they simply look and present better, the same is true for companies and products. So it's like put a an inordinate amount almost an

extravagant amount of effort into that.

>> Another one is >> it's so much harder too because it's not just enough to have a pretty website like every anime you you have to somehow

demonstrate that it wasn't oneshotted by >> some vibe coding app, right? which they

can you can make a make me a website that looks like linear >> like that's really easy now and that was like the gold standard >> fields demos of Figma make he he he like vibe coded like 10 different websites

and they all had like the most obscure because he has a lot of artistic references he can pull from it was things that I would have never come come up with but all of them looked like not linear clowns like they looked like very

unique and uh I don't know beauty and original thinking combination >> the instantiation of it was not what made it special it was the actual So we there was basically a decade when we just had to pretend that every single

thing in person was equally beautiful.

>> Sure.

>> And it was not allowed to say that something was less beautiful than another thing. And now it's allowed

another thing. And now it's allowed again. Apparently this the Victoria's

again. Apparently this the Victoria's Secret runway show >> Oh yeah.

>> with the angels in the wings is back.

Just >> it's allowed. It's allowed to be pretty again. Um another one is um things that

again. Um another one is um things that are not perfect.

the just be yourself, but like CEOs just being themselves in a way that is maybe not optimal. Like

not optimal. Like >> Palmer Lucky can go on any show in the world at any time. He did a recorded Zoom with me. Toby did that Starcraft thing a while back. Brian Armstrong went

on a podcast with like I don't know 500 listeners or something a little while ago just because he liked the guy's content.

>> Palmer Lucky is literally the best podcast guest in the world. I can't tell you the details of this. I just spent eight straight I spent a longer time with this. Eight straight hours trying

with this. Eight straight hours trying to stump the guy. I was with him for eight straight hours. I had to call in other podcasters that just happened to be there.

>> We couldn't we was like I don't I have nothing else to talk about, man. I I

just can't. And he was unlimited with like his knowledge on every single subject.

>> Storytelling is off the charts. I've

never met anybody with a mind like that.

>> Okay. So So here's the thing, though. So

people see Palmer. He's an archetype that founders want to emulate now. He's

the ultimate Joe Rogan CEO. And I think that founders shouldn't feel this pressure that they need to be like that is a certain archetype. And it's

possible that uh you can say like, "Oh, you should every founder should just have a growth mindset. Maybe you're not great on a three-hour podcast. You

should just become great." But I think people need to pick other archetypes. I

feel like Toby is another archetype.

Like he's not just trying to put up >> 50 hours on podcasts, right? It's more

like strategic and and different using different.

>> He's about to do my new show. So,

>> see how it goes.

>> So, he'll be making 420 minutes of sustained intense eye contact.

>> I love this concept of calling in other podcasters for backup with your watch.

Uh so like doing sustained a sustained effort uh you know accomplishing something great uh that sounds amazing but in the short term like you do have

to acquire some attention from investors, employees, customers. Um what

what do you think of uh I love Jaco Willink's uh Instagram where he goes to the gym every single day and he takes a picture of his watch in the morning just to prove that he wakes up. And it's this

interesting thing because it's not as labor intensive as like going on a podcast, doing a whole tour. It's not

really self argrandizing, but it just like reminds you of him every single day. And I'm wondering if there's a uh I

day. And I'm wondering if there's a uh I don't know. I

don't know. I >> You never forget about Joo.

>> I never forget about but but I wonder if there's like a a business equivalent of that that might emerge. Maybe maybe we can't just come up with it right now, but I wonder if someone will come up with something like that where you're like, "Oh, this person is is in the

zeitgeist constantly with something that's actually very high leverage as opposed to doing spending $150,000 on Steon."

Steon." >> True. Steinman does that.

>> True. Steinman does that.

>> Good morning. We are going to win.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Augustus does this. So,

anytime it rains anywhere in continental America, >> he has a comment on the quality and quantity of the rain.

>> Sure. Sure. And if it's not raining, he's like, "Why is it not raining? It

was raining in China. Why is it not raining over here?" Just like he's he's just made himself the the weather guy.

So any day that has weather is a chance for Augustus to remind you that he has a company.

>> Yeah. Yeah. What were you going to say about Draco, dude? You're a fan.

>> I also just spent time with him.

>> And >> how many hours >> you've been on a podcast tour? You talk

to everybody.

>> So uh there is funny. We were we >> Is that the first time you met him?

>> Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> And >> what was that like? I mean, you're like, can you give some context on your relationship with Jaco?

>> I can't tell you what was going on. I

can just give you the context.

>> I'm talking basically. Yes. I can't tell you what.

basically. Yes. I can't tell you what.

>> I can't tell you anything about it. All

I know is we were we just happened to be in an undisclosed location. We the only ones up at 4:30 in the morning. I go

>> strip club. Strip club.

>> And so, no, no, I would never would never. Bro,

never. Bro, >> everyone just lives. I think he was in the deep in the Pacific.

>> Undisclosed location. So anyways, I'm in this like hut and there's nothing but the um um like windows like a circular room surrounded by windows all all dark

and I see this slow huge silhouette. I'm

like what the [ __ ] is that? Oh, what the freak is that? And then I see his I know his face and I just see his giant head and I have a big head so I'm not making fun of him. I see his giant head and I was like and I open the door I go Jaco

come in here and I was like you don't know who I am. And I basically told the story, I go, "Just just sit with me for at least a minute." Cuz as he was coming in there, he's been my alarm clock every for like 5 years. And he's like, "Get up, get to the gym." Like, literally,

that's my alarm clock and has been forever. So yeah, I w up having like, of

forever. So yeah, I w up having like, of course, we talked for podcast about podcasting for like an hour. And I

explained to him like, the reason I started a solo history show reading books of, you know, autobiographies is because I found your podcast in 2015 that was doing that for people that

served in combat. And these stories were crazy. and the book review was like an

crazy. and the book review was like an hour and I was like, I'm learning so much and then I'm also reading all these books. I was like, I should just do that

books. I was like, I should just do that for business.

>> Yeah, I should go back and listen to some of the old Jaco episodes.

>> We had a long talk cuz he just hit episode 500 and I was like, dude, >> I don't I you're a very clear communicator.

>> I listen to your episode 500 where you're talking about this is what my podcast is going to be. I was like, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. And I was like, I don't. And he

about. And I was like, I don't. And he

goes, that's cuz I don't know what I want to do yet. I go just talking to another person like you've been doing is like not really differentiated. Go back

to the book reviews. Read Patton. read

Napoleon, read Frederick the Great, all that other stuff. Man,

>> he's really good.

>> Do you learn new things from meeting someone in person? So, you you study them from afar to like the maximum extent possible, but then when you interact in person, is there like new stuff that comes?

>> Yeah, 100%. Like it's it's just it man like I'm in I'm in trouble. Like I'm in real big trouble with this new show because I am completely addicted to it.

It's all I want to do. I called Rob Moore. We're going to have dinner with

Moore. We're going to have dinner with him. We're all having dinner tonight. I

him. We're all having dinner tonight. I

guess everybody else knows. But uh uh so >> doxing so >> undisclosed location >> and he's just been lining people up. I

was like I want some [ __ ] smart driven other maniac in front of me every single day. Like I want to do this every

single day. Like I want to do this every single day. I can do it every single

single day. I can do it every single day. Lulu's been insane with connecting

day. Lulu's been insane with connecting me with all these people. She she sent me or we were together with Gabby in New York at the cognition event and you had the funniest thing. You're like David

you have groupies but your groupies are >> 90-year-old business. middle age, not 90 middle-aged billionaire men.

>> And so she's been incredible about connecting with those people and then I'll get on the phone with them and like immediately you just click and we can talk forever.

>> Um so yeah, of course you you just learned so much and then I'm high as a kite. I don't do any drugs.

kite. I don't do any drugs.

>> Uh Justin was texting me about this masseuse.

>> I guess I shouldn't say this. You got to finish that sentence really fast. Lulu

text me like remember like a couple weeks ago like you we need to travel everywhere together. You need a a

everywhere together. You need a a >> he needs a crisis coms person on staff with it's like hockey teams travel with a dentist.

>> Yeah.

>> He needs a crisis coms person next to him to tell the waitress like oh no what he meant was oh sorry man. So to answer your question yeah you just learn so much more. And then um like even with

much more. And then um like even with somebody like James Dyson right >> I read his first autobiograph autobiography five times. I've read his second one at least two times. I've read

highlights from both those books dozens of times. I read his encyclopedia on the

of times. I read his encyclopedia on the history uh greatest inventions over and over again. I thought I knew everything

over again. I thought I knew everything about the guy and like then I got to spend three hours with him in New York and it was just like I was learning more about what motivates him, how he was.

And the cool thing is how great all these people have been. Unbelievably

witty, kind, generous, just like great people. Everybody's I think I ended that

people. Everybody's I think I ended that episode with everybody says, "Hey, don't meet your heroes." I was like, "Fuck those people. They're wrong." Like I'm

those people. They're wrong." Like I'm at my >> Has James Dyson seen the Dyson Airblade meme? Have you seen this? No, I haven't.

meme? Have you seen this? No, I haven't.

>> So, there's this meme that goes viral every Christmas. So, you're familiar

every Christmas. So, you're familiar with the Dyson Air Wrap?

>> It's the hottest gift for men to give their wives, probably something like that. But, uh, it's usually used by

that. But, uh, it's usually used by women with long hair. And Dyson also makes the Dyson Air Blade, which you which is when you're at the when you're at the airport bathroom, you put your

hands in and it and it it's uh it dries your hands very aggressively. And so,

yeah. And so the and so the joke is always someone takes a picture of the Dyson Air Blade and says, "I got this for my wife and she's upset with me.

What happened?" And it's just a very funny thing because, you know, imagine giving somebody blade.

>> Okay. One of the best comms case studies comes from Dyson. This is when the predecessor to the air wrap, which was the the blow dryer was coming out, like the haird dryer. And I actually flew to

China and met with the guy who was responsible for spreading the gospel of the Dyson hairdryer in Asia at a time when everybody still thought of them as just like air filters and vacuums and stuff.

>> So what they did was, >> okay, normally what you would do is you have an ad campaign and then you put it in the stores and then you you advertise that they're in the stores and you try to get people to buy them. What they did

was they went in completely stealth mode under the cover of night and put them into the most expensive salons and then didn't say anything. They told me about this.

>> So then, okay, I'll tell you the >> No, tell me. I'll go.

>> So they put them into the We should learn to speak in unison.

>> They put them into the most expensive salons and then after every cut, at least for women's hair, what men do. For

every cut, you get a blowd dry. You I

once tried to not get the blowd dry and they tried to make me like pay extra like you must get a blowd dry. So you

got to kind of blowd dry.

>> So they just start doing your hair with it and then it blowdries it much faster and better, I guess. And then the women ask, "What is this thing?" And it looks really different, too. It looks super futuristic. What is this thing? Where

futuristic. What is this thing? Where

can I get one? I'm sorry. You can't get one. It's only for salons. You know, you

one. It's only for salons. You know, you have to be a special. So now you've got the richest women in China with the right hair for it who like really care about their hair, obsessed with this thing that they hope that they can get,

>> but they can't get the story >> is uh crazy.

>> Does that come from Dyson or people he hires? I don't know who he came from,

hires? I don't know who he came from, but the interesting story is um I was >> But but is he a a distribution genius in addition to being an inventor or is he someone who's very good at hiring market?

>> He describes himself as an engineer.

There's a lot in the way Dyson thinks that's very similar to Kareem where like >> I asked him about this on on the episode too where it's like he has a very Dyson has a very simple organizing principle.

It's just like he picks up a product and he's just like why can't this be better?

>> And so he goes then I make it better and then I put it back down >> and then I pick it back up. I go, "Why can't this be better?" And I find another way to make it better. And he

goes, "I just never interrupted the compounding." So, I've been doing it for

compounding." So, I've been doing it for 45 years. And so, he's the I just read

45 years. And so, he's the I just read about his family office. He's

reorganizing his family officer now.

He's the richest person in Britain.

>> Um, and from what I understand, the numbers are reported are vastly under.

>> Does he have an heir to the Dyson uh empire? Like, do we know who this next

empire? Like, do we know who this next CEO is going to be? Is it like a Warren Buffett situation? Greg Ael was going to

Buffett situation? Greg Ael was going to come in.

>> His son works in the business. I highly

suspect they're going to go the route of um of what the Waltons did where like transition to professional management.

They that's nothing they told me but that's just like my uh read on on the situation.

>> Um what was the question about Dyson before?

>> Oh just is he a marketing genius or >> an engineer? No. So yeah his whole thing was just like um I just have to make it better. The largest the crazy thing

better. The largest the crazy thing about the beauty categories which what she's talking about is like how do you actually infiltrate infiltrate and like spread that and it's exactly what Lulu just said. And then what they told me

just said. And then what they told me is, you know, the the the biggest revenue category is still obviously the vacuum cleaners. Like everybody has

vacuum cleaners. Like everybody has them. They're $500, like the high

them. They're $500, like the high margin. But their beauty category is

margin. But their beauty category is only 10 years old and it's also already the second biggest source of revenue. I

highly suspect they think it's going to be bigger than the um vacuum cleaners, but it gives you insight into to Dyson because Dyson is obsessed with vertical integration.

>> And so >> he starts with beauty supplies and then what else do you need? Well, what else you now? He has like styling creams and

you now? He has like styling creams and stuff like that, but it's not He's like, "I'm not just going to make a styling cream just to make a styling cream." He

go So, he also has >> That's not vertical integration. That's

horizontal.

>> No, no. Check this out. I'm about to get there. So, uh, next year they want me to

there. So, uh, next year they want me to go to their UK. We're going to do another episode with him. I'm going I'm going to tour his UK headquarters and the farming cuz he's essentially like applying some of the highest tech farming. So, all So, this is the way he

farming. So, all So, this is the way he thinks though. If I'm going to do

thinks though. If I'm going to do styling cream, every single ingredient from the styling cream and all these other things have to come from my farm.

Interesting.

>> Yeah, >> he's like Zuckerberg with the macadamia nuts.

>> Wait, macadamia nuts? I thought he was only doing beef.

>> No, he's got to make the nuts feed the >> No, he plants the macadamia trees to get the macadamia.

>> You don't. You just use storebought macadamia nuts.

>> I I get chicken fingers from >> I talked to a guy that listens to I talked to a guy listen to founders that like corner the um the world market on macadamia nuts.

>> Uh he's like a young kid. He's What's

the the the brand that's advertised on Rick Rubin's podcast and all the other ones?

>> Okay. Well, it's it's one like 28-y old kid in like South Africa.

>> Wow.

>> Can I tell you about a beauty thing?

>> So, um anytime something becomes a beauty thing, the margins get better and the cost goes up. So, like Stanley Cups, remember how a year and a half ago Stanley tumblers became viral?

>> They did this massive influencer campaign, but they didn't go to like water influencers. So the way that

water influencers. So the way that Stanley Cups were positioned before was a bluecollar working man would take a Stan Stanley Cup to work alongside his like pale >> Yeah. I always saw it as a camping

>> Yeah. I always saw it as a camping brand.

>> It was and then they went to beauty influencers and grouped it as a wellness product along their wellness and beauty things. So you might pay $105 for like a

things. So you might pay $105 for like a water bottle to drink water out of, but you would pay nearly infinite dollars for wellness and hydration. So they went

to like beauty and wellness influencers who would do like yoga stuff and then um after their workout they would do like dewy skin care and then they would have

like their Stanley thing um there the whole time so you could charge like 5x more >> when you when >> that's very interesting >> when you talked about the >> that looks delicious.

>> I love these things. I'm drinking way too much by the way. Uh so when you talk about like the com the comm's predictions for 2026 and you talked about there's going to be emphasis on beauty like what is that actually like what's an example of that?

>> An example is the basics like the website looks good the product looks good but then the experience is beautiful the experience feels calm and serene there are some things where it just feels chaotic and stressful. So

like a beautiful experience, beautiful physical spaces. So physical spaces in

physical spaces. So physical spaces in general, I think are going to be a big deal because these are, >> you know, solid, tangible, >> anti- AI, >> I don't think it's anti- AI, but we

still exist here in Meatspace IRL in the world of Adams. And so like making beautiful spaces, um, >> it's a little rough. It's a little rough. We It's a celebration of of

rough. We It's a celebration of of podcasting.

>> It's masculine beauty. Feel like I'm in like a spaceship.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> On that note, so with spaces, how do you coach founders on the value of community events? Because

events? Because >> I've gone back and forth on this sometimes when like a small company is like, "Yeah, we're hosting a dinner with like a bunch of founders." I'm like, "Should you really host a dinner or

should you like >> any founder go to dinner?"

>> So that's that's your that's your take.

No, no. Um uh no but but how do you like how do you how do you understand the value of like community building in IRL community building?

>> So you have to define >> if you're going to create if you're going to create beautiful spaces obviously you want people to whether they're your team or customers etc. >> So um one of the other things themes I

think are useful to one of the other themes that I think is useful to think about for this year is qualitative over quantitative. So last year was very

quantitative. So last year was very quantitative. is just like get as many

quantitative. is just like get as many clicks, get as much engagement as possible. This year I hope that we all

possible. This year I hope that we all think more about well who is it and what is it? And so um who is in the

is it? And so um who is in the community? People will say our community

community? People will say our community and what they mean is anybody with a credit card and actually it should feel like well there are some people who don't belong in this community because if it's exclusive then there's more value to be like you don't want to go to

a club that whatever secret club you went to with Jaco people don't want to go into a club that anybody can walk into like right you don't want to go into a club that has no bouncers crossfit

>> it's a crossfit for podcasters >> that's great um do you think we are actually in a post ragebait era because we Okay,

>> he's mad. He's mad at you right now because we saw we saw a lot of Rage B.

>> I think every podcast is the same.

>> And then and then uh >> they are and then and then Jordy wrote Rage Bases for Losers and it felt like it did it did sort of update the valley and VCs to where a VC would kind of say

like this is maybe not the deal I should be doing. They're going to think twice

be doing. They're going to think twice about it. It's a little bit less like

about it. It's a little bit less like handcuffs off.

Well, we had Jake Paul. We had Jake Paul on earlier. Works and it's human. He's

on earlier. Works and it's human. He's

going to make effectively make a billion dollars from rage baiting, >> right? Like he's rage baited his way to

>> right? Like he's rage baited his way to 100 million boxing. Yeah. 100. He every

time he fights now, he makesund million.

>> How is that rage bait?

>> I mean, the entire process is he's it's it's the way he shows up. He's like he wants to be like the most punchy.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.

>> He wants to be the guy that people want to see.

>> Being the heel the heel.

>> Yeah, he's the heel.

>> Sure. Okay,

>> but that so that's like a durable strategy.

>> But there's something but there's something underlying that. So underlying

that is the heel persona and then the actual punch to the actual face happens.

He's actually in the ring. There are

people who are who at least have created things that are just pure rage bait. And

then when you sweep away the rage bait, there's nothing else. He's just rage bait all the way all the way.

>> You said something interesting that me, John, and Jory talk about off camera all the time that people are chasing numbers, but it's more important than the numbers. It's like who is in that

the numbers. It's like who is in that number? What does that number represent?

number? What does that number represent?

So if you like they're not trying to be like Mr. Beast. They're not trying to get the most views. They said I don't know if I'll just say this publicly.

They were like we want the top 200,000 people in tech and finance and business paying attention to us every single day.

>> Like the best of the best. And if we hit that they'll get everything they want out of life as opposed to having 20 million you know people sitting in Idaho or no offense to your new um your new hire.

>> Nothing wrong with Idaho. We love

>> sitting sitting on a couch eating chips or some [ __ ] like it's just like that's not I'm not interested in entertaining that person or educating the person. But

like this is something that it's it's fascinating you brought that like you you you're bringing it to like the what's happening in 2026 where it's like I feel like if you talk to podcasters

especially like in business it's like something we've been doing for a long period of time where it's just like you're not just going after views you're going after high quality people and giving them useful information so they can actually like utilize it in their

daily life. Like you would not trade one

daily life. Like you would not trade one Michael Dell listener for any number of non Michael Dell listeners >> for 500,000 millions wouldn't take it.

>> Uh how are you thinking about uh does AI have a narrative problem? Does it have a reality problem? Are we entering the new

reality problem? Are we entering the new tech tech lash updated tech lash probably >> we talk to Jetty about this all the time.

>> Yeah. I I I just think like you can't, you know, we have venture capitalists come on the show and they'll say like, "I don't care about margins because we're displacing labor." And I'm like,

"You got to rephrase that for me. You

got to replace you got you got to reposition that because you're pissing off everyone. On one hand, you're like

off everyone. On one hand, you're like you're you're saying like we're burning money.

>> Yeah. Even the investors are unhappy."

In this case, David Center was like, "Make some money. Make some money."

you're you're excited about like you have a uh people are um uh yeah people are basically like they're like no this is amazing because it's going to create

job loss and it's like you got to figure out a different uh >> and and and I don't even know you know again you can debate on whether or not that's actually going to be true right

like you hundreds of years ago if you told people like you're not going to have to work in the field you're going to have to you're going to go get your matcha go to a Pilates 's class and then you're going to send three emails and then you're going to go home and that's going to be you're going to earn a

living like that. They feel like >> day in the life >> day in the life sounds >> like a good Tik Tok >> office cafeteria >> but yeah the comm's issue in AI >> and just tech broadly there's so much we

just talked to a guy who now has made an AI that is licensed to uh practice medicine in Utah right should be a huge white pill right it's going to be like the cheapest

>> possible way to get access to >> what should be quality quality care >> and also just convenient even if you have the money you have to go to the doctor book it it's a whole thing like lowering access it's like amazing but

there's a lot of tech leaders who aren't making that case effectively what do you think >> you know that David Foster Wallace anecdote that he said with the two young fish are swimming and they come across an older fish and the older fish says

morning boys how's how's the water today and they said what's water >> AI feels like water to fish now it's like everywhere all the time and so when

I see companies try to use having AI as a selling point it's like bragging that you cloud storage or like you know right like yes and and and I think

>> software now in the cloud >> with connected solutions um it it feels uh not only just tired and worn out what is it that Dave Chappelle said about

Afghanistan it's bombed out and depleted you know there's just no more value to come from using the list of AI um buzzwords people are fatigued so just skip to what is the thing that it

actually does and then prove to me that it actually does do that and then you're good. And then as for the broader

good. And then as for the broader messaging, >> yeah, it feels like tech is right now is a heel, right? It's like, yeah, we're going to automate a bunch of work. And

uh tech has historically played the role of we're connecting the world. We're

changing the world >> or we're just giving you something that delights you and >> and right now the tech industry is like unintentionally operating as the heel.

So it's like if you if you want to be a heel like Jake Paul and you want people to kind of want want want to see you get punched. That's one thing. But I don't

punched. That's one thing. But I don't think the tech industry actually wants the entire world to hate it.

>> No.

>> Well, there's a tension between what you want to say to attract talent >> and then what you want to say to not be hated and maybe get customers. And these

people live in different worlds. So the

the the customers and please don't hate me category of people are not in this tech bubble whereas the engineers and um technical people you want to attract very much are. And so sometimes

companies feel like I I get this question a lot like how do we talk to both audiences at the same time? And

sometimes what they'll do is they'll say, "Okay, well talent matters most of all. We're just going to talk about how

all. We're just going to talk about how um awesome and technical this is and how much money we're all going to make and how many jobs it'll replace." And then that lives forever and now they have to

go encounter normal people and their >> reputations and and the the old interviews are going to get pulled up, right? Like how often do the lab leaders

right? Like how often do the lab leaders have a comment that they made about like at some like at a less wrong like adjacent convention like seven years ago

comes up today and it's like wait you're trying to sell me AI. You told you were telling people seven years ago that it was going to kill everyone. How do I square these things?

>> Yeah. The famous quote Sam Alman something to the effect of AI might kill everyone but in the meantime create a lot of profitable businesses. It's like

you're clearly trying to talk to two different audiences in that same sentence. One is like I'm taking AI doom

sentence. One is like I'm taking AI doom seriously, which is good in but in one community gets that and likes that. And

then another is like, hey, there's economic opportunity here for businesses and startups. And he's kind of put his

and startups. And he's kind of put his YC hat on for that one. And it's like two different messages in one sentence.

>> So, no go.

>> What people miss is that there is overlap in the ven diagram.

>> So, it's it's not just over here and over here like there is actually some overlap even if it's just a sliver. So

for example, the concept of what makes my own life better and it's made my life better so much that I want this for other people too. That appeals to talent that appeals to normal people or

something that is like okay in in this world where a lot of things are ephemeral or fake or are not making our lives better. I want to make something

lives better. I want to make something that is high quality and enduring that I'm proud to one day tell my grandkids about. That's a great message for

about. That's a great message for talent. They don't want to build the

talent. They don't want to build the next little toy that goes away in 6 months after raising a bunch of venture money. They want to build the thing that

money. They want to build the thing that is like an enduring >> um an an enduring artifact of human ingenuity >> and and that's the thing that people also want to experience.

>> Yeah.

>> I think Bezos has the best line of this.

He's like we're trying to build something that we can tell we can be proud to tell our grandkids about. Mhm.

>> Like if you look at what you're doing like through that lens, it's like would it be your grandson's on your lap, you know, 20 30 years from now, like would I be proud like grandfather did granddad did this [ __ ] >> What you we're on the phone. You

mentioned about like anti being anti-ephoral as like something else that you think is going to happen in 2026.

Like can you say more about that?

>> I don't know that it'll happen, but it's what I hope will happen and it's what I would encourage founders to try to make happen, which is so much is happening all the time. So I I looked up the

literal technical definition of white noise and it's basically just maximum intensity at every frequency altogether so that it's mushed into this nothingness and that feels like the

information environment that we're in.

And the only way to break through the white noise is is you don't actually compete on being loud and impeting on like temporary intensity is not it. But

one normal volume or quieter note that is sustained for a long period of time actually does cut through. The other

thing that's cut that cuts through is super personalized and super local things where someone could only be talking to you. Like if you're at a cocktail party, you have you heard of the cocktail party effect. If you're at a cocktail party,

>> I wouldn't be at a cocktail party.

you're at a secret podcaster CrossFit retreat in the ocean um before the Venezuela raid and um there's just noise and you can't hear anything. But if

somebody says David Sandra by David Sandra featured >> then you would hear that because this this is like the secret frequency for you.

>> Yeah. People love hearing it on him.

>> Yeah. But but people also love hearing the thing that they are feeling and can't express articulated in words that they wish they could have thought of.

>> This is a this is going to be a a random um thought that kind of um affirms what you just said. I just spent a crazy amount of time reading Bruce Springsteen's autobiography and it's kind of crazy because it's 600 pages and

he wrote the entire thing by hand. It

took him seven years. He wrote it like out longhand multiple times. But he said something that I feel the the reasons one of the reasons people listen to founders is very similar to why he says people go to his concerts. He's like

people aren't coming to my concerts to learn something new.

>> They're coming to uh to remember something that they know is that they already know is true. To be reminded to be reminded of what they already know is true.

>> I think it's very powerful.

>> There are not that many new truths in the world.

>> Yeah. Play the hits.

>> Play the hits. There's a few eternal truths that resonate to all humans from the dawn of civilization.

>> I need to put like faces on these ideas though. So like who else is doing comms

though. So like who else is doing comms the way that you would recommend? Like

who do you just think is doing the founders are doing the best at at this?

Are they just literally your [ __ ] all your clients just like go to >> Well, part of it part of it part of it is you're you're selective about the clients you work with. So you can you have the luxury of being like well I

only want to work with people that I think can be great because I am going to be limited in my ability to provide a great service by how great

>> like somebody like uh Augustus like >> fresh out of college you can tell from a first conversation with him that he has a potential to be a Joe Rogan CEO right

like that just something within him right um and you can identify that pretty quickly at least I personally can clock that in like a 15minute

interview if somebody's going to actually if somebody's like well suited to be the kind of going direct CEO that kind of thing but there's different again there's different archetypes that that work for different >> Augustus is amazing he does his own

stuff like he's had these huge high-profile interviews he just sets it up um I have a couple uh Augustus stories that I think are so emblematic of how he does these things one is the

first time we ever met was after this founder after like a founders fund um event and everybody had this huge sushi dinner and then the next morning which was 8 hours from the time the dinner had

concluded he text me he's like want to lift on um but the second thing is there was this incoming potential hit piece about

how >> it was about how the Gundo >> was too maledominated. you know, there was some reporter that was still stuck in 2019, wanted to write an article

about like there's not enough female representation in the Gundo. And he

texted to me and he's like, "Got to go consult with the boys." So he goes and consults with the boys. And he's like, "All right, uh, we're we're ready to deal with this. What should we do?" And

I said, "Well, I think you should just talk to her." And he said, "Has anybody ever tried just being hot and charming?"

I actually think, "No, it hasn't really been tried. You should go try it."

been tried. You should go try it."

>> Do you want to know the advice I gave Augustus? Uh,

Augustus? Uh, >> didn't that work with Skrey, too? Martin

Skrey, didn't he like ris up that like journalist?

>> Oh, god damn it.

>> Ended her marriage and then she wrote a book about it. She left her husband.

>> That's great. Um,

>> alpha widow.

>> I guess guess the advice I gave him.

>> You need to spend more time with these older entrepreneurs. I swear to God. Cuz

older entrepreneurs. I swear to God. Cuz

he's like, "Me and my boys are killing it." I go, "Listen, listen, man. Like, I

it." I go, "Listen, listen, man. Like, I

like you. You're a nice kid. There's a

hundred [ __ ] companies there. Five

are going to be here five years from now." Like they're all dead. They don't

now." Like they're all dead. They don't

even know it. Like you're just you don't know what you don't know because you're so goddamn young. I go spend time with older entrepreneurs. I just promise.

older entrepreneurs. I just promise.

Like still hang out with the young guys.

Still do whatever you're doing. It's

like just talk to somebody that actually survived was successful and survived for half a century.

>> This is good. You're going to bait the Gundo into having a 100% success rate.

We're not going to let this podcaster come over from Miami and say that only five of us are going to be standing here.

>> That is how they operate.

>> Yeah, this is good. This is I can see what you're doing.

>> No, it's all startups. It's not just that has nothing to do with they're they're wherever they happen to be geographically concentrated. It's just

geographically concentrated. It's just most of them are all dead and that's the point. It's just like you're you're

point. It's just like you're you're paying attention. This goes building

paying attention. This goes building things.

>> Exactly. I'm anti-ephoral. I am succeed today, tomorrow, 5 years from now, 10 years from now, 40 years from now.

>> Like that's I think the important thing.

>> I'm scared. You told me that I I I introduce a lot of people to you. I'm

scared to introduce someone to him who hasn't been in business for like 10 years and made billions of dollars because he's not like call me when you're a billionaire.

>> No, that's not true.

kind of um no I I I've been doing a bad job of just hanging out with all the older entrepreneurs because this is what I happen to be interested in and no because you just learn dude I told this story uh recently it's like

>> I spent um I'm part of the thing about differentiation which is why I love Dyson and I think we talk me and we talk about this all the time podcasters don't think about differentiation so I'm like okay yeah I'm going to grab some interesting podcast guests that I know are really good but I also want to

convince people that don't do podcasts at all to come on and I've spent a >> a lot of time doing this and It takes a long time.

>> He's got it. He's getting it. You saw

that.

>> I didn't curse >> almost, but he pulled it out at the last second.

>> And so I talked to one guy. He's 71

years old. He worked in his company for 50 years. He just sold it for $50

50 years. He just sold it for $50 billion. And I spent an hour with him in

billion. And I spent an hour with him in New York. And the information he

New York. And the information he transferred to me in an hour. It's just

like it's it's crazy how much information that could happen. So I

would I have to do a better job of like taking that information. I mean, I guess the p No, I don't have to do a better job with this. I do this on the podcast.

Just listen to the podcast. like take

the generation the information from the old guys and push it to the young ones.

You just got to listen. I want to go back to this though because I'm still not getting what I want.

>> Well, I I loved your pirate writers piece that came out I think yesterday or the day before is it literally just comes down to this last paragraph like the people who are really going to stand out are the people who are willing to be candid and truthful.

>> Yes. So, um

>> Oh, agree with Jake Paul. That was his number one advice for creators in 2026.

It's very similar.

>> You, me, Jake Paul.

>> Yeah. Everyone's

>> Well, I feel like when people are like the idea of au authenticity is important, people have just heard that so much it means nothing anymore. It's

just like, yeah, it's important, but then they don't actually go and practice it.

>> Can I tell you a secret?

>> Why don't you think they practice it?

>> I think people are scared and they're getting gas lit.

>> They don't love themselves.

>> What? Why'd you have to take it to another level like that?

>> That's all the stuff that's important.

It's like I'm looking a lot of people from the outside. A lot

of people are so terrified of what other people think about them, they have low self-esteem. I I have this argument on

self-esteem. I I have this argument on with uh most people think entrepreneurs are like too arrogant and I say the opposite. I was like we have so we could

opposite. I was like we have so we could have so many more entrepreneurs. We

don't have an epidemic of overconfidence.

>> We have an epidemic of humbleness.

>> We have no we have an epidemic America's too number one.

>> We have an epidemic of people that don't believe in themselves enough >> which is why they let themselves get gaslit.

>> Very true. Yeah.

>> So the secret Okay. So, so, um, I'll give you a little bit of a roundabout answer because you asked who does this really well.

>> Eric and Kareem.

>> Yeah.

>> Were great.

>> What company before I met them?

>> What companies?

>> Time and money. Time is money. Save

both. They were great before I met them.

>> No. Oh, god damn it.

>> We're on it. We're live. This is why they were great before I ever met them.

>> Yeah.

>> And if I had never met them, they would just continue to be great. And when we talk and brainstorm, a lot of these, it's not like they want to do nothing or they want to do something that sucks and

I'm like, "No, you should do something that's good and they take that advice."

They have the fire, the ideas. There's a

million things that they want to do. And

sometimes it's helpful to have somebody bounce that with you and say like, "Even if this is not normal, do it anyway."

>> Right? A lot of times, um, >> you got a little like Rick Rubin in you.

Has anybody ever told you that?

>> Is it the beard? The hair? Oh, it's not I'm I'm I'm stuck in this edit from hell for like 15 hours. That damn episode's only going to be like 40 minutes long, but I I kind of messed it up.

>> Um and so I'm like I've been inside of his brain for a while.

>> Um and then I also listen relisted to the old episodes I did on him. I really

admire like do you remember when I text you I was like dude or I didn't say dude. I was like I want you to do the

dude. I was like I want you to do the new show. Do you remember what you how

new show. Do you remember what you how you responded?

>> You said you're crazy.

>> And I because I was like no I'm serious.

No. I was like I'm serious. And then you hit me.

>> Oh, I said I said, "David, are you out of your mind?"

>> Yes.

>> Yes.

>> And then you hit me with a meme. Do you

remember the meme you sent?

>> Have you ever anything fast yesterday?

>> It's like, "Oh my god."

>> Oh, is the big bird at the table? I sent

him the big bird at the table.

>> And so it's like Lulu's Big Bird and you have like Daniel E or Brad Jacobs on the on the other ones. I'm very fascinated and kind of obsessed with people that have singular careers. And that's what I told you. I was like, you are you're

told you. I was like, you are you're literally like people don't I don't even know how to say your last name. I have

no idea how to pronounce it because I I don't even hear it. I don't even ever hear it. It's just Lulu. You have a very

hear it. It's just Lulu. You have a very single. I've only seen it in writing.

single. I've only seen it in writing.

>> But the stuff here that's coming out of your mouth is very strange to me because it sounds like I'm hearing Rick Rubin, which like he there's a you should read his book, The Creative.

>> I have. It's great.

>> Oh yeah. There's a lot of like you got a lot of Rick Rubin, >> but sometimes you just give people permission to do the thing that they would have liked. Sounds like Rick Rubin that the world is telling them is not normal and they shouldn't do it.

>> Yes. and his whole thing is about listening without judgment and just like you you you go into this idea where like the world is way more complex and you you you we tell stories about the world but we don't actually understand what's

going on right and so his whole point was just like stop overanalyzing stop overthinking like try it and then see what happens and see how it feels and he basically goes off a lot of intuition and he thinks like the essentially I'm

not going to speak for him but I highly suspect that he thinks the truest human wisdom is actually in like from the subconscious >> not from like the rational like part of our brain or the even the storytelling part of our brain.

>> Yeah. Which suppresses the >> But again, he he does a great job too because like obviously he he went direct, he has his own podcast, but when he goes on other people's podcast, it's not like, oh, who's this? He's the same person everywhere he goes, which goes

back to your importance of consistency.

John, don't even try to end the show.

>> We got to hop on with Munich.

>> Sorry, >> Munich.

>> I can feel the body language as soon as you do this.

>> Thank you so much for coming on.

>> That's the podcaster.

>> It's been a fantastic show today. We

almost made it to the fifth hour.

>> We almost did.

>> How long has it been? How long?

>> We do. We do have to jump on with you in just a few minutes.

>> And we'd love to have you back on the show many times this year.

>> It's going to be a great year.

>> It's going to be a fantastic.

>> Thank you both for coming on so early.

David just had he just had to get one more podcast in for the day. He just

couldn't. He's got a true addict.

>> Thank you everyone for listen today. We

will be back at 11 a.m. Pacific

tomorrow. Thank you for tuning in.

Cheers.

>> Goodbye. The four of us need her.