James Sexton | Blocks Podcast w/ Neal Brennan

My guest today is uh are do you need are you getting divorced dog? You a high netw worth individual you is it over for

you and the fella or the lady and you need a guy who's I'm assuming is a really good lawyer and uh litigator we'll call him and also has an online

presence. It's growing every day. Before

presence. It's growing every day. Before

we begin remember to like, subscribe, hit the notification bell, all those things. It really helps the channel and

things. It really helps the channel and check us out at sextonow.com. This it's

James J. Sex and Jim, I'll call you Jim.

>> Yeah, Jim's good. Yeah.

>> Is that That's pretty >> That was an excellent promotion. I mean,

that was >> I mean, if I just can, you know, bring you on as a sponsor now to just deliver something with that eloquence, we're gonna >> I what? He's You'll learn about him

today, but I I became aware of you through different interviews, different You have a book, which I haven't read.

Um, but I feel like I've watched enough videos that like do I really >> kind of have because people ask me questions that's basically like, "So, what are four things?" and I'm like, "Well, I wrote a whole book about it."

>> Yeah. How has the online presence helped or hurt the practice?

>> It hasn't really touched it. It it it it, [sighs] you know, I I was already a full-time divorce lawyer for 23 years before I ever did any kind of media

work. And so, um, and I already had a

work. And so, um, and I already had a full roster of clients. It wasn't like a situation where I didn't have clients.

It really was just something I did to use like a different muscle in my brain and and and to to to because I enjoyed it and I found it kind of more invigorating like doing the same things over and over >> in court. I still love the job. I still

love being a divorce lawyer and a trial lawyer, but I just, you know, I it was a different experience. The the biggest

different experience. The the biggest change it's had is that now people recognize me and people my peers make fun of me left and right. They're like,

"Oh, it's the celebrity." you know, cuz divorce lawyers in, you know, there's a lot of lawyers in New York City. There's

only a small subsection that are matrimonial lawyers and there's even smaller subsection that are the ones who who represent like the wealthy celebrities, things like that. So, I was already in that small subsection

>> and so they think it's quite hilarious because most of them you'd pass them on street, you never know who they were and yet their clients are billionaires and they're very well known, you know. So,

among the matrimonial circle. So now I get recognized like on the I live in Manhattan so I get recognized on the subway when I walk to anytime I stand still anywhere in New York City people are like you're the divorce lawyer you

know so it changed that but other than that it hasn't really changed anything I >> do you judge do you judge yourself for liking it?

>> No. Um because I I think I'm at an interesting level of if you want to call it fame. I'm at an interesting level of

it fame. I'm at an interesting level of fame.

>> I call it NBA referee level. That's the

level I'm at. We're probably similar like people like I know you in my case it's like I know you for a lot of black guys.

>> Right. Right.

>> So there's the there's the why the metaphor works but for me but it is that thing of like >> yeah and I don't know what to make of you. I like I like you. I mean in my

you. I like I like you. I mean in my case it's like stand >> well for me what you know my public facing persona is and like my conversations like this that's authentically me. So like they I'm not

authentically me. So like they I'm not playing a character in any way. I'm not

doing an act. It's like it's me. So I I feel like the people that meet me, they actually like know something of me. So

if they like me, >> they like me. Yeah.

>> And and I could never say that doesn't feel great. I mean, I I actually

feel great. I mean, I I actually understand my celebrity clients a bit better >> because >> I've often wondered like why some of them are so, you know, egotistical or why they're so

>> they're so shocked when I tell them things that they don't want to hear but they need to hear. And and you know, your lawyer is often giving you bad news, you know, not because something went wrong, but because well, no, this is the rules. Like, you have to give

this. This is what the law says.

this. This is what the law says.

>> And they kind of are shocked that someone's disagreeing with them. You

know, I I have a theory why every musician's third album sucks >> because the first album's just raw talent with no production values. The

second album is like amazing raw talent with some production behind it. And the

third album is what starts to happen when no one around you is telling you, "Yeah, that's a bad idea." Yeah. Like,

so that's why it's like, you know what I think I'm going to do? I'm throw some banjo in. And like,

banjo in. And like, >> I literally am doing a joke right now that this is Trump's second album.

>> Yeah.

>> I have a different metaphor, but it's like surrounded by an entourage. It's

his second season, second album, second.

It's a sequel. It's just not as good.

Bad ideas. No one

>> no one's checking him. And no one and and we really need like we need people who see your blind spots and who like care enough about you to go >> dude just shut up and play the >> but you see how >> it happens

>> 100%.

>> And you see I you work with your son right?

>> I do. Yeah.

>> I mean so right there like there's a everyone becomes an employee and but then you don't want to work with strangers. It's just you see

strangers. It's just you see >> none of it's easy. What's nice about having my son around though, I will say, is that he is always as unimpressed with me as anyone is with their parent.

>> Yeah.

>> And so that actually keeps me very grounded because he's very humble >> and very like will say to me like, "Yeah, yeah, that's so cheesy." Or, "Oh, that's so cringe." And I I like that. I

appreciate that because I like people honest. But but I will tell you the

honest. But but I will tell you the positive part of it is, you know, anyone who says that there isn't something incredibly gratifying about strangers

walking up to you and saying, "I love your stuff." Yeah. And I love like how

your stuff." Yeah. And I love like how dude you get those that little dopamine hit five, six times a day.

>> Where it started to scare me is when I walked from my apartment to my office, which is only a couple of blocks, and no one stopped me. And I went,

>> "Oh, wait. Why didn't anybody like what did I, you know, like do you guys not see?" And then I was like, "Maybe if I

see?" And then I was like, "Maybe if I stand still for a minute." So, and I found myself going, "Oh, wow. No, don't

start. Don't start." It's the difference between like I had a drink last night and a like I need a drink tonight. And I

started to go, "Okay, this is if you start letting this be something you need, it's going to change." It's

>> But it's you I will I can cut this because it might be nauseating. Uh but

you once you you notice you do know I mean human beings we're social animals so we're constantly attuned to what is that person recognizing uh what sort of

treatment am I going to get and it's very hard not to fall into it. I mean I this could comfort you but there are >> uh and I talked to a buddy of mine about this. There are low fame days.

this. There are low fame days.

>> Yeah.

>> Like I'm just not very famous today.

>> Yeah. And then there's other days where you are and I don't know what the difference is or what the I think it might be life forcebased >> like how much

>> life force are you giving off chi whatever you want to call it but I could be dead wrong. I spend so much of my sort of inner life trying to you know

and and you know for example even my experience with psychedelics has always been like in this pursuit of kind of ego death recognizing like where I stand in

connection to the universe and >> and it's very um the concept of fame is very much about like you know connecting to self and then the presented self and

then the other people's reaction to it.

So, in that sense, I don't always know if it's pulling me in the direction I want to go. I feel like sometimes it's pulling me. Yeah. Yeah. And I see it.

pulling me. Yeah. Yeah. And I see it.

>> But it's easier. It feels good and it's easier. And it's easier when everyone's

easier. And it's easier when everyone's you you got everyone's kissing my ass right now. Okay. How

right now. Okay. How

>> How hard you going to fight it? If

everyone tells you you're in great shape, how often you going to go to the gym?

>> Well, and I represent, you know, I represent the wealthy and famous.

>> Can you charge more just out of curiosity?

>> No. I mean, you you could, but I, you know, I charge the same for everybody because it's like that's what we all do.

>> Well, no, no. Now that you're now that you're >> Every year my rates went up anyway and and every year my roster got a little more exclusive. Like I I I I I only take

more exclusive. Like I I I I I only take a certain number of cases because I like to have a firm that's designed that clients can get me anytime.

>> But I I really do find that like when you're >> in the hierarchy of like what you should aspire to, I have wealthy famous

clients. I have famous notwealthy

clients. I have famous notwealthy clients.

>> I have um not wealthy, not famous clients. And I have very wealthy,

clients. And I have very wealthy, totally unknown, unfamous clients. That

should be the aspiration.

>> Very wealthy.

>> Very wealthy and unknown because you have all of the perks and access that come with fame >> with none of the invasion of your privacy. Like some of my clients who are

privacy. Like some of my clients who are worth $8 billion,10 billion, >> they would walk past you on the street.

You have no idea who they are. You would

just would, you know, >> there's a little signals though if they have a one of those quilted hunting jackets. That's a good thing.

jackets. That's a good thing.

>> That's a big thing. Or the Patagonia vest is a big People wear the vest, but that's like usually I'm a a hedge fund guy who wants to look like a hedge fund guy who's not all caught up in it.

>> Yeah. No,

>> but like these are dudes just walking around in like khakis and you know >> people will always want access to money and they will occasionally want access to fame.

>> Yeah.

>> So I I've had the famous say it's the mass that eats into the wearer.

>> So you can't >> Yeah.

>> You know once you've got it in there you kind of can't take it off you know.

>> All right let's go back to Are you grew up How'd you grow up?

>> I grew up just outside of New York City.

I grew up in Rockland County as a small suburb. I grew up uh my dad was a P PTSD

suburb. I grew up uh my dad was a P PTSD Vietnam veteran alcoholic who you know I moved out when I was 17.

>> What a combo.

>> It's a good combo. Yeah, it's a common combo actually back then. Yeah.

>> Um yeah, because those guys came back and they were like, "All right, buck up.

You know, get out there. You'll be all right." You know, you like every single

right." You know, you like every single person he knew was dead. So he

>> And he probably saw them die. Wasn't

like, "Oh, did you hear?" He saw it happen.

>> Yeah. And he never discussed it. He

never processed it in any capacity. So

he just sort of pushed it all down and then alcohol kind of kept it down and um yeah I moved out when I was 17. I was

unambitious. I wasn't

>> Were you what was the relationship?

>> You know he was a fun drunk.

>> Okay.

>> So he wasn't like mean at all but he had he was a cuddy sark in the coffee mug in the morning kind of drunk.

>> Thick hands.

>> Yeah. With the beat up looking hands too like like my hands look very soft compared to his.

>> But he was uh yeah we we we we kind of avoided each other as much as possible.

My mom was trying to sort of manage having this alcoholic dad, you know, husband who was similar to her alcoholic father. You know, she did what a lot of

father. You know, she did what a lot of people do. What a coincidence.

people do. What a coincidence.

>> Yeah, it definitely wasn't chance. And

um yeah, I I was really unsuccessful at adolescence and I like I wasn't good at sports. I was smart, but I wasn't a

at sports. I was smart, but I wasn't a good student.

>> I I was just kind of dorky. I had big glasses. I looked like a serial killer.

glasses. I looked like a serial killer.

And I went to Catholic school. Y

>> and um I just was not good at anything.

>> And so I got used to being alone. I got

used to, you know, we grew up without money. So, you know, when you're a kid,

money. So, you know, when you're a kid, like having a lot is very fun of anything.

>> Yeah.

>> But every store we left, I I couldn't have anything because I didn't have any money. So the library was my favorite

money. So the library was my favorite place because you could leave with stuff. Like I would leave tons of books.

stuff. Like I would leave tons of books.

And my parents actually had one one thing that I really credit them for.

Their attitude is if you can read it, you can read it. So any book in the library, you can read. So like I was probably the only 12-year-old who was like jerking off to Danielle Steel

rather than Playboy magazine because I I I didn't have access to getting like Playboy magazine, but I could get a Danielle Steel novel out of the library and read it.

>> And of course, it had some sex scenes in it. When you're 12, you know, a strong

it. When you're 12, you know, a strong breeze is going to be enough to make you excited. And also like I never found any

excited. And also like I never found any of that around like his member.

>> But if it's all you got, if it's all you got, you're like, you know, it's like the Ritz cracker. Like if that's all you've had, you're like, that's delicious, you know? So I would, you know, >> and it probably taught me something

about like, oh, the nature of like, you know, because those books were so popular at the time, like taught me something about the nature of female desire maybe. And um it was it was it

desire maybe. And um it was it was it taught me also to love to read. I mean,

literally, you know, so I uh that was helpful. But then I got to college and

helpful. But then I got to college and um I I kind of came into my own. I got

tall. I grew my hair >> and the fact that I was >> Where you go to college?

>> I went to Ramapo College of New Jersey.

It was like a dirt cheap school that I could go to and and uh you know I had no money so it was like I'd go wherever I could and I was a waiter at night and I think that was actually the most being a

waiter was the best experience ever for doing what I do because a anytime anyone complains about the job I always say like I've done worse things for less money because until you've slung like

prime rib for a $2 tip while people just verbally abuse you don't realize how good you have it you know and any night that I go home and it's not 2 a.m. and I

smell like prime rib. Like I'm I'm good, you know? And and so I'm in the air

you know? And and so I'm in the air conditioning in the summer. I'm in the warmth in the winter. I went to college.

>> What do you think was going to happen to your life?

>> I really had no idea. I really didn't think it would be anything.

>> No. Even vague any sense of like I'm not destined, but like may I kind of feel like you just >> I was utterly directionless. Yeah.

>> Darkness. Nothing.

>> Yeah. I just went I I don't think I'm good at anything necessarily.

I I got involved in the debate team my sophomore year of high school because there was a girl on the team who I wanted to be near.

>> Yep.

>> And so I thought, well, maybe I'd be good at this. And I actually ended up really good at it. Like it was the only thing I'd ever been good at was debate.

>> Did it feel good to be good at something?

>> Yeah, it felt amazing. It felt amazing.

It's it's still and still my my ability to sort of like verbally spar and my ability to like think fast on my feet and improvise >> and extemporaneously speak and like

think about things in a strategic way.

>> It's probably my greatest blessing and gift and probably my greatest curse in my personal life, but I it is definitely something that um you know it it set me apart really early on anticipating the argument and getting around.

>> Did it work with a girl?

>> It did.

>> Didn't I? It's actually the girl I lost my virginity to.

>> Nice.

>> Perfect plan.

>> Yeah. You know, I wish I could have said it was like a It was so methodically done, but it really was. Yeah. Like I

said, I got to get next.

>> Things never It's like your 9/11. You're

bin Laden.

>> Yeah. It really was.

>> It really really [ __ ] you. I mean,

what are the odds that it all happens that way?

>> It just all She was my first kiss. She

was my first everything because before that I couldn't get a girl to even talk to me. So,

to me. So, >> and you now have a skill that you could build a lifetime around.

>> Yeah. It took me a while to figure that out though. I'm talking about [ __ ]

out though. I'm talking about [ __ ] you're you really made you built a life.

>> I built a life theoretically the desire to get laid gave me my it really is.

Yeah. But I generally believe that's true about men. Like most of the things we do we do together.

>> 100% true.

>> Okay. So you get you're good at debate then you go to college. You keep

debating.

>> To college? No. I didn't debate anymore but I I realized okay like that's my skill set. My skill set is I'm I'm slow

skill set. My skill set is I'm I'm slow of study but sure of speech. So, I'm

just going to try to use that and leverage that. So, I thought I'd become

leverage that. So, I thought I'd become a therapist. And uh then I realized

a therapist. And uh then I realized therapists have to listen more than they talk.

>> And so, I didn't think that was the best use of my skills.

>> Not for me. Go ahead.

>> But I got out of I got out of school, still kind of no direction. I got a degree in psychology >> and um I worked in a community mental health center with with you know, chronic uh chronic schizophrenic

patients.

>> And um >> what was your demeanor at this point?

You pretty happy. Did you feel the >> dad's an alcoholic Vietnam vet, this is a problem, this is stunting me? Any any

of that?

>> Whoever discovered water, it wasn't a fish, right? So, like I was just in that

fish, right? So, like I was just in that and I just was okay, this is just how life is. I remember sometime after

life is. I remember sometime after college stumbling on the book uh adult Alanon, adult Adult Children of Alcoholics.

>> And I remember reading it like I didn't even buy it. I was just standing in the store reading it and I remember going like have they been reading my diary?

Like because it was all about control issues and all the things that come from growing up in alcoholic household >> that now looking back like our are >> something of a superpower, you know, like the sensitivity of like, okay,

wait, let me tell by dad's eyes or by his voice how much drinks he's had. And

that connection and empathy and you know sensitivity turned out to be like something that makes me excellent at my profession because in a courtroom I'm watching the judge. I'm watching opposing counsel.

judge. I'm watching opposing counsel.

I'm watching my client. I'm trying to manipulate everyone's emotional state based on those cues as best I can because fundamentally that's my job is to manipulate people's emotional state.

I want the judge.

>> And do you do you what's the hierarchy?

Judge, opposing counsel, your cl What's the >> I mean it's an ecosystem. So it's like they're all I mean the client pays the bill. You always want them to feel good,

bill. You always want them to feel good, but sometimes what they're more what they really want, even if they don't realize it, is the outcome.

>> Yeah.

>> So the judge determines the outcome. But

you know what I do is full contact storytelling. It's like like if you're

storytelling. It's like like if you're trying to tell a story and someone else is trying to tell the opposite story at the same time and I'm trying to take apart their story while they try to take apart my story. And so it's it's very

kind of like, you know, threedimensional chess in that sense. So, everyone in that room is really, even the court reporter, like even the person who's the synenographer taking it down. Like,

>> they're listening to everything that's being said, they're going to go back in chambers with the judge and I know they're going to have a conversation about like, "Oh my god, sex is so annoying." Or, "Oh, I like Jim. He's so

annoying." Or, "Oh, I like Jim. He's so

nice." Or, "Well, he made some good points." So, it's like everyone in there

points." So, it's like everyone in there could hurt you >> and everyone in there theoretically, >> everyone in there is an alcoholic.

>> Everyone everyone everyone there is my father. So, [laughter] I feel like I'm

father. So, [laughter] I feel like I'm in a therapy session. It's usually

Wednesday mornings I do that. But yeah,

it it it definitely um you know, I I I took a couple of turns that after college that I thought made sense and didn't. I mean, my life in retrospect,

didn't. I mean, my life in retrospect, like I'm very successful in my career, but I always tried to tell my sons when they were sort of directionless and in their early 20s that like, oh yeah, like it mine makes sense looking backwards,

but like the only life path is the one behind you. Like there's the one in

behind you. Like there's the one in front of you. Like it was just a series of near misses that did not make any sense at the time. But like I I went to medical school for two weeks and dropped out. Yeah. I dropped out in two weeks.

out. Yeah. I dropped out in two weeks.

>> You got into med school?

>> I got into med school. I always took tests really well. I could because I'm very disciplined. So

very disciplined. So >> like when I took the LSAT, the law school admission test, I knew I had to get a scholarship because I couldn't afford to go to law school. So I took every single LSAT that had ever been

released over and over under timed conditions until I could get all of the questions right.

>> So I just for like two months pretty much but it was like a monastic discipline.

>> And then I got to the point where I was like and I scored in the 99.9th percentile I got into form law school and got a full scholarship. So I went to law school for free. So I like I it was always that I just had a work ethic that

was unlike anybody's work ethic.

>> Always from the beginning.

>> Yeah. Like once I knew what I wanted, I always had a work ethic. I always had a really disciplined way of approaching things. And

things. And >> how did you did you instill that in your kids?

>> Is it instillable?

>> I don't think it's instillable. Yeah. I

mean like >> I always say it's a talent. I had this conversation with my dad because he got sober nine years ago in his 80s >> and um all of a sudden I had this totally different person, you know, I

had this whole different guy, >> which was funny because my reaction to it initially was excitement and like, oh, that's cool. First skepticism, then excitement and then like this really

seething anger >> because I, you know, he all of a sudden had an emotional vocabulary because he spent all this time in the rooms >> and all of a sudden he would be like, you know, I'm so proud of you. like,

"Oh, you know, call me this weekend. We

can chat." And I'm like, >> "Dude, where was this guy? Like, where

was this guy when I was eight? Where was

this guy when I was 30 and getting divorced? Like, now you want to go out

divorced? Like, now you want to go out back and have a catch? Like, I don't >> I learned how to not need this."

>> Yeah.

>> Like, I'm not doing this with you, man.

Like, I'm glad you have free time. I

don't like I'm, you know, >> but then I also figured out in my own work that like, yeah, you know, actually, you do like it's nice. It's

very healing to have a relationship with him, you know, and to realize that I you do still feel a deep connection to a parent, you know, >> it's it's elemental. I have a question

which is can you that thing of of not giving too much credence to I'm in this environment and I'm it's making me this and psychological

cascade. it. I've been talking to my

cascade. it. I've been talking to my lady a lot about my girl uh about um not accepting necessarily what has to

happen. Like I don't have to be

happen. Like I don't have to be traumatized by a thing everyone's that was traumatiz. It's like people want you to

traumatiz. It's like people want you to be traumatized now. And as somebody who doesn't mind fighting is what I've always liked about you. like, "Oh, this guy before I knew, you're just like,

you're valuable and you're you're personable and you want to f Is there something to be said?" It's beyond resilience. It's just not even accepting

resilience. It's just not even accepting what is supposed to be.

>> Yeah.

See, I I feel like I feel like it's very shortsighted to think you can understand the takeaway while it's occurring anyway because, you know, when my father got into his recovery, I >> he did the thing that a lot of people do

when they get sober, which is he had oceans of regret and he wanted to sort of make amends with people and and you know, so he was very like apologetic in a lot of his conversation with me about like, oh, yeah, I was really not there

and I really could have been a better dad. And I was like, "Dad, I like I love

dad. And I was like, "Dad, I like I love my life. I love it. Like I love my

my life. I love it. Like I love my profession. I love my my personal life.

profession. I love my my personal life.

I love who I am in a very real way.

I'm only who I am because of the conditions in which I existed. And a lot of those were born of the classic, you know, adult child of alcoholic stuff.

And I was like, so like if you wanted to create another me, I would have had to have like been an absent alcoholic father with no emotional vocabulary to my children.

Instead, I was soft as Wonderbread. Like

I gave them the total I I treated dandruff with decapitation. I went the other way.

>> And I really tried to be like very present. And even when I disagreed with

present. And even when I disagreed with them, I was like, "Well, I understand what you're saying, but I feel this way."

way." >> And they're soft as Wonderbread. Like

they're they're lovely. They're great

boys. like but but they're not you know they're not they don't have my like insane tenacity my control issues and again their life may be richer for it or poorer for it I don't know you know but

>> like I I tried to say to my father and I think it as it relates to what you're saying that while this stuff is happening while the traumatic thing or the thing that you the external forces

are saying should be traumatic to you like I've had clients who their divorce breaks them >> and I've had clients who their divorce breaks them temporarily and then creates room for this other growth and this next

chapter that it's like a transformative amazing experience.

>> Post-traumatic growth. It's the thing nobody talks about.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And like that that idea of like, all right, the barns burned down and now I can see the moon. Like that

there's so many possibilities that open up. But but there has to be

up. But but there has to be disorientation for you to reorient. Mhm.

>> And so I like I I try to say to my clients like when they're saying like, "Well, I'm so anxious or I'm so stressed or this is so hard without discrediting what they're feeling, I try to say to them like, you know, can let's just slightly change your vocabulary because

as a lawyer, I'm always thinking about words like what if you said like, I'm really disoriented right now because my life is reorienting and my my way of relating to the world and who I am and

who I am in relation to other people, like my husband's now going to be my ex-husband or my co-parent, you know, that requires There's disorientation so you can reorient. So why not just ride

that disorientation and call it what it is, which is it's a call to this new opportunity to change.

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Genuinely I have two. You know I have two. I've talked about them in the past.

two. I've talked about them in the past.

Promo code Neil see out there. Maybe put

throw a picture of me on there. Are they

like an old old one where I'm like gaunt very pale? God bless. Are you a mourner

very pale? God bless. Are you a mourner or a sulker or a self-pier? I think I would be an attendant mourner. Like I I

try to be someone who's very in touch with the parts of me that are moved by sadness or beauty. I mean that's why >> like in a number of my interviews like I I get tearyeyed.

>> You're going to try to make me cry again, Stephen. This feels unfair.

again, Stephen. This feels unfair.

>> I'm not really afraid of that. I'm very

comfortable with that because I I know that that s I used to think in my brain there were these two waring forces. My like analytical,

forces. My like analytical, argumentative, tactical side and then this like very soft, very emotional, very empathetic,

like kind of like Pink in Pink Floyd the Wall, like that little like very vulnerable thing.

>> [screaming] >> And I used to see that as like, okay, my life and my brain is a war between those two forces. And and I I would constantly

two forces. And and I I would constantly be like, no, no, you have to be heart and you have to be this. And and then the part of you going, like, yeah, but you become too much of a machine. You

have to be softer. And I think only in my late 40s did I go, "Oh, no. Those are

like two aspects of self that I just have to learn to let them dance with each other." And like sometimes one is

each other." And like sometimes one is leading and sometimes the other one's leading. And like I've just come to

leading. And like I've just come to embrace in my own therapy, my own work.

Like just realizing that yeah, I'm I'm I'm all of those things and that there's it's not even a polarity between them like because they're not necessarily opposite. They're complimentary forces

opposite. They're complimentary forces if you let them coexist peacefully. And

that's been I think my challenge even personally and professionally because professionally part of my job is to be a tactician. you know, come up with

tactician. you know, come up with strategy, execute, eviscerate someone on cross-examination, build up my client on direct examination, like be combative in a respectful way under a certain rules

of engagement. And then the other part

of engagement. And then the other part of my job is to be like very sensitive and very empathetic and try to like have my client feel understood and help them tell their story because, you know, people have a need to tell their story.

People have a need to be heard and that's part of my job is to put myself in in their head and help their story be heard. Even if some of their behavior,

heard. Even if some of their behavior, like any of us, is awful. Like I

represent victims of domestic violence and I represent perpetrators of domestic violence. I represent people married to

violence. I represent people married to someone with a terrible substance abuse problem and I represent people who've had a terrible substance abuse problem.

And you spend enough time with all of those varieties and you start to realize like there's no good and bad people.

There's just, you know, good and bad.

The line of good and bad runs right through the human heart, you know, and you just start to figure out, okay, hurt people hurt people.

>> And and nobody's born like I hate the Jews or I hate this. Like people are born very warm and loving. Well, I mean, listen, I may do, but I I I I really find myself looking at the people I

represent, and when you get to know them well enough, it doesn't excuse some of it, but it explains >> How do you ignore that if somebody is a is a drug user or let's say the the

well, probably a man is a spousal abuser.

>> Yeah.

>> And a drug user, right? 80% time

probably man. What do you do as their lawyer? Just make it irrelevant. No, I I

lawyer? Just make it irrelevant. No, I I think um you know the saying among lawyers is you explain what you can't deny and you deny what you can't

explain. You know, but I I think

explain. You know, but I I think I tend to favor explanation. I tend to I'm a fan of what what at my firm I I've forced the lawyers who work for me to refer to as the eight mile strategy,

which is we just use the end of eight mile.

>> I am a [ __ ] >> Yeah. Like I am a [ __ ] I do live in a

>> Yeah. Like I am a [ __ ] I do live in a trailer with my mom.

>> I am like I am a [ __ ] mom. You know,

like it's the same. And and I always say, "Now tell these people something they don't know about me."

>> Here, tell these people something they don't know about me.

>> But my version of it is, "Now tell these people something I don't know about my client."

client." >> Yeah.

>> Like, because I'm watching opposing council cross out entire pages of their cross- examination, what they thought was going to be their Perry Mason moment.

>> And you shot [clears throat] and you killed RogerWigley, did you not?

>> Yes. Yes. I killed him with Mr. Kane's gun.

>> And isn't it a fact, sir? Here's a text message. Isn't it true? I'm I show you

message. Isn't it true? I'm I show you this text message. Do you recognize that yet? Did you send that to your

yet? Did you send that to your co-parent? Yeah. Can you read it for the

co-parent? Yeah. Can you read it for the court? I'd rather not. I'd rather you

court? I'd rather not. I'd rather you did. Could you read it for the court?

did. Could you read it for the court?

>> Okay. Did you coach them to say I'd rather not?

>> No.

>> Okay.

>> I don't often in this hypothetical.

Yeah. I don't often have to. I actually

>> tell them I'm going to have I'm going to have you read it.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I tell them I'm going to bring it up and they say, "Really? Yeah. I'm going to trust me."

"Really? Yeah. I'm going to trust me."

And I explain the eight mile concept to them. Generationally, some of my clients

them. Generationally, some of my clients get there.

>> He was right.

>> Right. And then I try to do a few verses of the Slim Shady album. I try to walk them through and I ask them to ignore some of the albums. And then I just go forward. I do a little D12 just so they

forward. I do a little D12 just so they can take the turn. Not Purple Hills [music] >> because I feel like that's the edited version. It loses, you know, some

version. It loses, you know, some context, >> but we're probably going off on a tangent there. I I really do try to to

tangent there. I I really do try to to to get the authentic self on the stand.

And I'll have them read it, you know, oh, you you know, uh, stop texting me, you stupid [ __ ] [ __ ] And I'm like, "Do you think that was a helpful email to send to your co-parent? Do you think it did anything to improve your

relationship with the defendant?" No.

Why in God's name would you send that text message? You know, she sent me 50

text message? You know, she sent me 50 text messages before this and I never take the bait and I'm human and I took the bait. If you had the opportunity to

the bait. If you had the opportunity to do it over again, would you do it different? You know, I'd love to say to

different? You know, I'd love to say to you yes, but the truth is like I'm human. I probably would have like I'm I

human. I probably would have like I'm I got pushed so far I flipped out. While

this is coming on, I I can just see opposing council crossing things out and it humanizes the client because anytime someone tells you the story of their life and their >> backfire sometimes, >> it hasn't yet.

>> I I believe it hasn't yet.

>> I believe that >> because I I think a little humble goes a long way. And I think when you

long way. And I think when you >> when you tell the story of your life and you're the hero of the story, you lose credibility. Whereas if you say, you

credibility. Whereas if you say, you know, here's what I do well. Like if you said to me, tell me about you as a father. You know, if you judge me by my

father. You know, if you judge me by my best moment as a parent, you're giving me way too much credit. If you judge me by my worst moment as a parent, you're not giving me enough credit. So I'm kind

of the average of these things. And so I I really try like even in my own life, if somebody said like, "Tell me about you as a parent." Because I have to have this conversation with clients all the time when they're preparing for a custody case. And I'll say, "Tell me the

custody case. And I'll say, "Tell me the things that you're good at." And they'll say, "Oh, you know, I love my kids."

Okay, everybody loves their kids. That's

not special. Tell me, what do you do?

Well, like love is a verb. What's the

verb? How do you love your kids? How do

you show your love?

>> And then I'll say, "Okay, and where do you fall short?" And that's when they'll say like, "Well, I'm impatient and I'm, you know, I sometimes" And that's when you can bring that out on the witness

stand, that's not only very persuasive.

>> Yeah. I think it's actually helpful to a person like just even the process of preparing for a trial because it it forces you to look at yourself in a way that many people don't do unless they spend a lot of time. By the way,

>> you mentioned the block special before we started rolling and three mics are that >> three the middle mic and three mics is like hey yeah I [ __ ] m mooched off

Dave and I'm [ __ ] depressed and did it I'm like here's what and even blocks it's like I'm not I should be whatever something's wrong with me and I it's a

good I can't say it was a strategy really but I think it's almost a good and Rogan Schultz made fun of me about it on on Rogan show one time.

>> No, Brandon needs to get off that vegan diet.

>> Yeah, maybe that's it. What if it's just chicken is all he needs? Like what if it's a ribeye >> down in Costa Rica licking toads and he [laughter] really for real?

>> Dude, I if I had that dude over my house and cooked him some elk steak, I'll change his [ __ ] life. [laughter]

>> He takes one bite and he's like, I am worthy.

>> Which I'm like, good. They understand

that. Like, what's the worst thing you can say about me? And I also think it's effective in a relationship. Me and Lucy been doing a thing recently of like what are we afraid to say?

>> Right. Well,

>> and and it's kind of based on you talking about if you can't do a prenup with somebody, you should not marry that person. If you can't discuss

person. If you can't discuss >> money, >> what then? You can't discuss anything.

>> Yeah. Well, I I have a friend who's a therapist and and they said to me the the like single most important question that you should be asking in therapy is

what is it I'm afraid to feel? And and

the best definition I've ever heard of addiction is anything you do to get away from what you would have been feeling if you'd done nothing at all.

>> If you tell on yourself in therapy, you're wasting your life.

>> Yeah. But it's just it's I think that same that that relationship context I think you know that's what it's meant to be. Like I I'm fascinated by the answer

be. Like I I'm fascinated by the answer >> or what are you not supposed to feel in a relationship?

>> Both because I I I think the conversation worth having even for you and Lucy for example is like when when do you feel loved by me? Like the most loved because the answer is not going to

be oh when we took that amazing vacation or you took me to this great place. It's

going to be some dumb weird little thing that you might not even notice you do.

>> Yeah. like like when we're walking down the street and you kind of move me to the side so you're the one closer to the road like because that's so much. that

says so much and and it's not you can't something you can tell your friends about like oh you know what's great about him he does that but like it's some weird thing and then if you can have that conversation which I think is a wonderful conversation and actually

like an invitation to like have a very like lovely discussion with a person because even if right now like we just said like okay I'm going to tell you three things I like about you and you're going to tell me three things you like

who doesn't enjoy that conversation like it's lovely to hear and you're often surprised by what it was a person liked The correlary to that which is a little harder but I think equally valuable is

like when are some times I didn't you didn't feel loved by me like what's something I do that I don't know that I'm doing maybe where you don't feel seen or you don't feel connected to me

or that makes you feel disconnected from me >> and that's like hard to hear you know it's hard to hear but it's often I think incredibly instructive what what's

amazing about my job as a lawyer is like I have to understand the other side's case against my client as well, if not better, than I understand my case.

>> Mhm.

>> Because I have to shore up defenses. I

have to figure out ways to be proactive and get around and do the eight mile.

>> Play offense and defense. That's what I call it with direct where it's like I have to have a schedule, but also if that falls apart, >> right? And so, yeah, because like no

>> right? And so, yeah, because like no plan survives first contact with the enemy. So, you have to just have a

enemy. So, you have to just have a better map and you also have to get to instincts and move around. And some, you know, I've been doing it so long now that >> I sometimes don't even know how I know.

Like I don't even know how I like like my partner Colin will say to me like, "Oh, you know, like how did you like ask that question knowing that they might do that?" And I'm like, "I don't know how I

that?" And I'm like, "I don't know how I knew that. I just felt like maybe, you

knew that. I just felt like maybe, you know, and so >> alcoholic fathers probably the answer."

>> Yeah. It could be that sensitivity and that control stuff. But I I have to tell you like there's such value in in my opinion in being, you know, radically

vulnerable with your partner if you're going to make the choice to be in an intimate relationship. Like I I don't

intimate relationship. Like I I don't think I think in our society, we've created this demand that like it's a presumption you're supposed to get married, you know, like you're just supposed to like if you said, "Guess what? We're getting married."

what? We're getting married."

>> I'm supposed to say, "Oh my gosh, congratulations."

congratulations." It's considered indelicate if I go, "Oh, really? Why?"

really? Why?"

>> Yeah.

>> Like what? Why? Like what is the problem?

>> Me for saying why and then two years later I got divorced and it's like you were right.

>> Yeah. But what but what is the solution to which marriage is a problem for you?

Like because it it certainly isn't that you were like this is so good. Like we

got to get the government involved.

>> Have to.

>> Like that's insane. That's I've been to the DMV. Like I've never walked around

the DMV. Like I've never walked around the DMV and be like these people should be in charge of everything.

>> Hold on. No one defends the DMV.

pretty [ __ ] good >> better now.

>> But it's pretty I mean again how would you give every single person a license to drive? What would be your system?

to drive? What would be your system?

>> It's not it's not the system, it's the manner in I I'm a believer in like if you give them a uniform they think they're Hitler.

>> So like I feel like there are people at the DMV I'm sure wonderful people who do their job montage of him wearing this outfit.

>> Welcome back to Better Call Sexton. Hey

gang, welcome back to Better Call Sexton. Hey gang, thanks for joining us.

Sexton. Hey gang, thanks for joining us.

Welcome back folks.

And then there's some that like, oh, you failed to fill out box 23. Go to the back of the line.

>> Yeah, I I know.

>> You're like, >> "Yeah, >> are you really we're doing this?" Like

the court system has a ton of those.

Like anytime you have people in government work, it's often not like the best and brightest in the world. It's

people that were like, "Yeah, I want like a nineto-ive job. I want a certain amount of paid vacation. I want good health insurance." Like that was their

health insurance." Like that was their priorities. It wasn't like, "I I want to

priorities. It wasn't like, "I I want to help people meet their transportation needs."

needs." What has been the you may have spoken about this before, but the everyone that comes to you, every every case you've you've

litigated, what do they all have in common? Is there like is there a thing

common? Is there like is there a thing of like if only they'd x y or z or is it you most people shouldn't be together?

What's your what's your sort of 35,000 ft view on this? Yeah,

>> cuz it is I I find >> starting with the prenup video, which Lucy and I watched I don't know, a year and a half ago, and just like, oh, I

sent it to her and kind of it's kind of risky sending somebody a video about like this divorce, a very sexy divorce

lawyer. I'm risking it all. Um, I'm

lawyer. I'm risking it all. Um, I'm

putting my I'm putting putting my my my sexiness on the line. Um, but what is what do they what could if you time machine what how could they have prevented?

Obviously, it's overly prescriptive.

>> No, I I I think there's a couple of potentially good answers. The first one that comes to mind is I think everything stems from two problems. We don't know what we want and

we don't know how to articulate what we want. And if you're going to connect to

want. And if you're going to connect to another person in this very intense way that a that a romantic relationship of that level is anything but a casual

romantic relationship level is you you have to have a good sense of what it is you want. I al I also think what what

you want. I al I also think what what what really jumps to mind is and this is I think the reason why the divorce rate is is starting to go up again and I

think we have rocky water ahead is that we've increased the amount of the performative self in the world because now we all have these devices and we're all broadcasting to an audience that we don't really know the size of you know

no matter who we are >> and I think that is created in people because if you think about it like when you look at your phone, you're watching

other people's curated greatest hits while you're living your gag reel.

>> Mh.

>> And you're never really looking at your phone in peak moments of joy. It's

usually like, I'm on the train, I'm on the toilet, I'm bored. So, you're kind of at a low state. You're watching

people's curated best selves, and you start to compare your life to theirs.

>> And of course, you're going to be dissatisfied. I think the biggest

dissatisfied. I think the biggest dissatisfaction in relationships is you're you're comparing your romantic

partner to the idealized romantic partner in your head. So my perfect partner in my head would know exactly what to say and when to say it. They'd

know exactly what I need and would give it to me before I had to ask. Like

that's not real. That's your

imagination. Like, so it's totally unfair to get upset at your partner when they fail to be the imagined ideal that you have in your head of of who they

should be. And I think that stems

should be. And I think that stems primarily I I think from the way that we relate to ourselves, which is we're wildly critical of ourselves at times where we should probably be give

ourselves a little grace and then we're wildly egotistical at times where we probably should be a little bit humble, you know? But like if I if I had someone

you know? But like if I if I had someone in my life who spoke to me the way I speak to myself in my head, I would have like beat the [ __ ] out of them a long

time ago. And and I would even venture

time ago. And and I would even venture to say that, you know, if if you had someone in your life who spoke to your

girlfriend the way you speak to yourself in your head, >> you would kick the [ __ ] out of that person >> because you would be like, "Whoa, whoa, buddy. You don't you don't know what her

buddy. You don't you don't know what her life, what she's been through. You have

no right to judge her. Like, she's okay.

She's not perfect. No one's perfect."

>> But we we relate to ourselves in this, I think, very distorted way. Divorce is a very interesting moment in some >> but you were doing divorce litigation before the smartphone.

>> Oh yeah.

>> What's the difference?

>> It's um the the abundance of terrible information is increased.

>> It really is incredible.

>> The number of people that now have a Greek chorus of people agreeing with whatever righteously indignant insanity they've bought into.

>> Yeah.

>> So you can find whole communities of people that say the system is rigged against men. the system is rigged

against men. the system is rigged against women. Uh the family court

against women. Uh the family court system is corrupt. Like you can find a giant community of disgruntled people.

>> And what I will tell you is like working in divorce is an interesting space because we have this bizarre perception as a culture that there's this like two choices. You can either like go to a

choices. You can either like go to a mediator, hold hands, sing kumbaya, hug each other at the end, and be like, "Hey, we'll always have Paris and go your merry ways." Or knock down dragout litigation where you kill each other.

And and there's actually a whole bunch in between that where it's just a negotiation between council or there's like a judge gets involved but just to break deadlocks or stalemates.

>> But the only people that really talk about their divorce are are the people that had these brutal, ugly, terrible divorces because a it was transformative

of them. It's horribly traumatic and b

of them. It's horribly traumatic and b it's like super interesting. Like if you know if you said to me like, "Oh, Jim, tell me about one of your cases." And I was like, "Oh, there was this couple and like they met in college and they slowly

grew apart and the ven diagram of their shared interest kind of got smaller." So

they figured out a way, right? You're

just already like, "Dude, I'm checked out. Like this is not good." Whereas if

out. Like this is not good." Whereas if I was like, "And then he like took the chainsaw, cut the car in half, he's like, "Bitch, figure out which half you want." Like that that story you're like,

want." Like that that story you're like, "Is that true?" That is a true story, by the way. And and so it that's the story

the way. And and so it that's the story people want to hear. So that's what you talk about. That's what people talk

talk about. That's what people talk about. So then people get this

about. So then people get this perception that that's how divorce is and how it's supposed to be. So they

fear it in the sense that it's like well I can't go through that even though that's not what the majority of divorces look like and the people who talk about it online and elsewhere and want to like

have this be a core idea of personality.

>> Stop it. How meaning the question remains how >> what do they all have in common? What

would you tell the people at the beginning at the beginning of the relationship?

>> Yeah. They stop paying attention. You

you when you you must constantly pay attention and you're not talking about returning texts or or attentiveness you're talking about >> well I I I think actually returning texts would be a part of it I think I

think we stop seeing that which is around us all the time >> I think we become kind of blind to it and I think when you're first dating you're trying to close the deal like like you're trying you're interested and

you're interesting and both of those are intoxicating in their own way like it's really exciting to meet someone and be like, "Oh my god, I want to know. Like,

I want to know everything about you.

Like, I want What do you look like in a hat? I want to see I bet you're so cute

hat? I want to see I bet you're so cute in a hat. I want to see you in a hat.

Like, I've never like I want to see you in a Halloween costume. I want to see like I want to see every little thing.

What's your favorite food?" Oh, you know, like I want to know everything.

>> And they feel the same way about you.

And suddenly you feel incredibly interesting. You're like, "What do I

interesting. You're like, "What do I have?"

have?" >> But who you are is like suddenly, >> oh, like, yeah, I see myself through that person's eyes, through their desire. Like if someone tells you, "God,

desire. Like if someone tells you, "God, you're like the most handsome." You you feel handsome, you know? And so we go through that phase and that's how we connect

and then we kind of gradually are like, "All right, I've told this woman she's beautiful 4,000 times. I got to do this every day now. Like I don't, you know, but the truth is like what does it

take?" Like what does it take to just

take?" Like what does it take to just say or leave a note like, "Hey, you know, it was really fun hanging out on the couch with you last night. I'm glad

I'm with the prettiest girl in the world. Like, that's it. What does that

world. Like, that's it. What does that take? Like a less than a minute to write

take? Like a less than a minute to write that note. How do you think it feels to

that note. How do you think it feels to receive that note? Like, it has to feel good, you know? Like, it has to feel good. Like, I I've jokingly said to my

good. Like, I I've jokingly said to my male friends that like sending your girlfriend or wife a text that's like, "Hey, I'm in Starbucks and this song came out. It made me think of you." Or,

came out. It made me think of you." Or,

"Oh, I just was, you know, I'm stopping for lunch and I just wanted to say hi and tell you I was thinking of you." Is

the equivalent of her sending you nudes.

Mhm.

>> Like it's the equivalent to agree. Yeah.

>> And and and it it it takes nothing. Like

it's a low percentage low cost.

>> What I do is I'll send a video of the song playing and I'll just have the tip of my dick and the >> That's But that's nice because you're bringing a lot of elements in. You know

what I mean? Two birds. And that's fun.

Yeah. And that's fun. And then it also says, "Look at how romantic I am. How

might you reward that?"

>> Hello.

>> You know, how might you meet that >> with some of the same?

>> Yeah. Just I'm just putting that. She

goes home. Why did you send me a picture of your dick? I'm like, "Oh my I didn't even know it was in there.

>> You missed the point.

>> Oh, did you even listen to the all I am to you?"

to you?" >> Yeah. It's all you can think about.

>> Yeah. It's all you can think about.

Fine. If that's all I am to you, here it is. You know, and that kind of a

is. You know, and that kind of a >> What if it's not in that guy's personality? Do you just say like you

personality? Do you just say like you don't have a personality? Figure it out.

Meaning, I'm not a guy. I'm not that thoughtful. I'm not that cuz I think

thoughtful. I'm not that cuz I think women will will uh get upset when guys send too many memes and it's kind of like that's a bit of a love

>> language. So what do you how is that why

>> language. So what do you how is that why are you not accepting me for for who I am? I or is it I do need to adjust your

am? I or is it I do need to adjust your love language? I think if you're going

love language? I think if you're going to be in a relationship with another person, you have to understand and study them like Margaret me studying the Yanamomo

tribe. Like I think you have to like be

tribe. Like I think you have to like be an anthropologist about it. Like okay,

and I I especially say and although it's maybe not a popular opinion to have, like I think men and women are different >> and I think >> I still at the age of 52 have a lot to

learn about women. I still learn tons.

Like I have an office full of women who work around me and I listen to their conversations sometimes. You know, it's

conversations sometimes. You know, it's a small office and I I'm fascinated by the [ __ ] comes out of their mouth because I'm like this is a whole different level of interaction. It's a

whole different way of relating to things. And I I think you you you have

things. And I I think you you you have to learn that. Like if somebody says like, "Oh, well that's not, you know, how I'm normally wired." You're not normally wired to be in a relationship.

You have to learn how to be in a relationship. And I think we break in

relationship. And I think we break in relationship, we heal in relationship.

Like I think you I can't learn everything I need to know about myself from myself. Like I need people around

from myself. Like I need people around me. And I think that's a a big piece of

me. And I think that's a a big piece of being in a relationship is like, okay, this doesn't come naturally to me. But

like what what comes I mean, you know, I think good standup, like you watch a good standup and it just looks like they're just popping it off the top of their head. Meanwhile, they've worked

their head. Meanwhile, they've worked that so many times and they've had to just absolutely [ __ ] the bed so many times and you know, all you see is the effortless part and you go, "Well, I wouldn't be good at that." And it's

like, well, no, you you don't you're maybe not born good at it, but you could cultivate it if you have some of the wrong ingredients. If you're enough

wrong ingredients. If you're enough connected to this person to be like, "Hey, out of eight billion options, you eight billion choices, you you're the one I'm picking." I think you owe it to

yourself and to them to try to understand better. And again, I think

understand better. And again, I think there's ways you can do it that if you don't instinctually know it, great. When

do you feel loved by me? What are some things that made you fall in love? Like

when you watch a couple when you say to them, "Hey, how'd you guys meet?"

>> Everybody softens. Everybody softens

because their brain brings them back to that place where it was like, "Oh, yeah, she was this." And and it's like, "Well, she was a mystery and you were a mystery." And it was like, you know, all

mystery." And it was like, you know, all of a sudden like you're there again for a minute. And I think that why do you

a minute. And I think that why do you need to have someone else impose that?

Can't you do that in your own relationship? Can't you like find ways

relationship? Can't you like find ways to cultivate that? See, I think people want like giant answers to this. Like

everybody loves, you know, the Buzzfeed approach to things like what are five things that are a sign of marriage? Show

tell me three things about what ends marriages and they don't want to hear the answer, which is no single raindrops responsible for the flood. like but but like you know the the the branch that

has a bunch of snow on it like one snowflake was the one that broke that branch but it was all the snowflakes. So

I think it's the same thing like we we fall in love really fast. It's really

like pherommones and hormones and all this stuff >> and then we we we we fall out of love the way we go bankrupt like real slow and then all at once. Mhm.

>> And I think that's the hard part is like how do I do the preventative maintenance of just keeping the connection rather than like it's so much easier to just maintain a healthy weight than to gain a

bunch of weight and then try to lose it and gain a bunch of weight and try to lose it. Same thing like once you're

lose it. Same thing like once you're completely out of love like you're disconnected.

>> I'm not saying it's impossible but it's hard to find your way back.

>> But if if you have an abundance of affection for each other and you're like, "Oh, we want to keep this. This is

good." Like because I'm not as interested in the divorce rate as I am the marriage satisfaction rate. Like

because even though the divorce rate is 56%. I know there's another 10 20% that

56%. I know there's another 10 20% that are [ __ ] miserable. But staying

together for the kids or because they don't want to give away half. Okay. Now

we have a technology fails 76% of the time.

>> That's reckless.

>> Yeah.

>> Like legally like the definition of reckless in the law is a substantial and unjustifiable risk of serious harm.

That's recklessness. Negligence is a failure to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk of harm. So marriage

is reckless. It's not even negligent.

It's reckless because you're disregarding a substantial 76% risk of harm. And yet we we want it. We keep

harm. And yet we we want it. We keep

doing it. 86% of people who get divorced are remarried within five years. So

those are people that like bet up at the table, lost their hand, and then we're like, "Let's keep playing."

>> So I think it's because there's something in us that knows this is something we're called to. So if if it's that important, why wouldn't you do preventive maintenance? Like if you have

preventive maintenance? Like if you have a car, you know, a lot of people now like they just have a car and they have it for like three, four years and they don't take care of it and they don't give a [ __ ] because they're just going to get another one in a couple years. My

iPhone, like I I'm just going to get another one in a couple of years, so whatever.

>> But if I was like, "Well, by the way, this is your only phone. That's the only phone you're ever allowed to have." You

would take good care of that phone. You

would bring it in and say, "Is there anything I can do to get this cleaned or like make sure it's maintained nicely?"

I mean, there's maniacs that don't have covers on their phone that in case they drop it.

>> That's weird. Yeah, that's weird.

>> Um >> or or they have a like junaqua that we don't have. They have like a you know,

don't have. They have like a you know, they're living their life in a fearless manner.

>> Stupid.

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fresh. Has your awareness around all this stuff made you to call it a technology? Just the idea of calling it

technology? Just the idea of calling it a technology like huh? It's not

romantic. It's not has it made you transactional in a in a in a negative way? Is it has it made you sort of I

way? Is it has it made you sort of I guess the word cynical comes to mind?

But can you be realistic about it? See the

carnage, live in the carnage. You live

in the carnage of of failed relationships >> and still be what keeps you optimistic?

Cuz you use the word you're we're called to it. And I'm not sure that we are.

to it. And I'm not sure that we are.

If if you look at the history of marriage, it's a bit like I don't know if romance started like 120 years ago.

>> Yeah, it was usually preservation of land and things like that. But no, I I >> I am I think very much at heart a romantic.

>> But I think there's a difference between >> being deeply touched by the value and power of love, the transformative power of love and how good love feels

and believing in fairy tales. Like I I like to consider myself realistic and pragmatic because what I do for a living has forced me to confront in very

hands-on ways the way that love can go wrong. The way that intimacy can be

wrong. The way that intimacy can be weaponized, all of the horror that can come and carnage from when you allow your soft, vulnerable parts to be

exposed to another person >> and then they weaponize it against you in some fashion. So, I've seen all those things and I still believe the greatest thing in life is love. I

think to feel loved and to and to love another person.

>> I'm I'm not going to make that distinction necessarily. Like I I love

distinction necessarily. Like I I love like the way you love your dog, you know, and the way you love your romantic partner are different, but they're both

a very like, you know, your your dog like there's this you no one's ever I don't know any dog owner who has a dog that's like 10 years old and like looks

at the dog and it's like I got to get a puppy. Like dog is old. Like it's

puppy. Like dog is old. Like it's

doesn't it can't do like play ball like it used to. It's not but like I know a lot of guys that look at their wives and are like h she's not as hot as she was or she's like not as what you know and and vice versa women towards their men

but I don't know anybody who feels that way about their dog. So there's

something very selfless about that kind of love. It's very honest. It's very

of love. It's very honest. It's very

authentic because the relationship is very pure and very simple.

>> One of the upsides of dog is they're going to die.

>> Well I think well I think I actually think one of the upsides of that is that they make us realize that their love is not permanently gifted. It's loaned. And

I think that if we figured that out about our romantic partners, we'd be in a better position. See, I I I think I was a hospice volunteer for many years.

And I have never felt more alive or grateful than when I walk out of a hospice visit because when you spend an hour or two with someone who is dealing

with like progressive multifocal lucinsphylopathy and going to die within a month, >> you walk out of that. you know,

whatever's going on in your life that you're like, "Oh, I owe this credit card bill and I dude, I don't have that."

>> Yeah.

>> Like, I'm [ __ ] alive. Like, right

now, you know, like I'm alive. Like, you

you feel like a like a samurai. Like,

it's just this like the sound of the rain sounds beautiful. And I Every single relationship you have will end.

Everyone. Yeah.

>> In death, in a breakup, like whatever it might be. What dogs show us is a very

might be. What dogs show us is a very profound, pure, simple kind of love that's very reciprocal and they have an incredibly abbreviated lifespan. So that

forces us to confront that we have a very limited time to love this thing and be loved by it. But also that it's love will change us and stay with us in an eternal way. It becomes part of our

eternal way. It becomes part of our constitution, right? Like there's no no

constitution, right? Like there's no no one who's ever their dog died and they're like, you know, oh yeah, that one I got a new one. It's all good. Like

so I think if we could approach our relationships with our partners with that same humility of like hey this isn't permanently gifted this is loaned and every day we wake up and decide

we're still doing this thing out of the eight billion other options in the world. I think that would be a cure for

world. I think that would be a cure for a lot of the problems that we have. I I

Ticknad Han, the the Buddhist monk, uh he passed away just a couple years ago, but he has this like exercise that he encourages people to do that I think some people find very morbid. I think

for some reason you'll connect with it because we have some of the same pathologies.

>> The [ __ ] is that supposed to mean?

>> Well, it's it's meant as a compliment because we have the same pathologies. I

think when you what he says is when you hug someone, you should think about the fact that they're there and you're hugging them. And then you should close

hugging them. And then you should close your eyes and you should imagine that they've died >> and you're hugging their dead body for the last time before it's taken away.

And then you should think about the fact that they're alive and you're hugging them. I think if you did that, if you

them. I think if you did that, if you really did that every time you hugged your partner, every time you hugged your brother, your sister, your you would relate to them differently and you would

relate to the way you engage them differently. And I I think

differently. And I I think >> much of the world is designed to detract our attention from the fact we're going to die. Because if if we really thought

to die. Because if if we really thought about that every day, we wouldn't buy all the [ __ ] they're trying to sell us, >> and we would engage with each other in

much more authentic, I think, ways. So,

I think the the the thing that hospice and divorce work, both of which very much appealed to me, have in common is they're both about endings.

>> They're both about the fact that everything is ending all the time. Like

your life is ending all the time. Your

relationship is ending all the time.

It's all ending all the time. And

sometimes that end is is a beginning of the next thing. And sometimes that end is just pain. Like it's just loss with that that's insurmountable and can't be replaced. And you have to figure out how

replaced. And you have to figure out how to grieve. And I think I think that's

to grieve. And I think I think that's what inspires, but that has not to answer the original question.

There's a line in a Joseph Broaddsky poem that that is my favorite line in my favorite poem. The poem's called A Song.

favorite poem. The poem's called A Song.

And he wrote it when his wife died. And

um the refrain of the poem is I wish you were here, dear. I wish you were here. I

wish we sat on the porch and you sat near. It's like a very sweet poem, but

near. It's like a very sweet poem, but one of the lines is I wish you were here. I wish you were here. I wish I

here. I wish you were here. I wish I knew no astronomy when the stars appear.

And I I feel that way. I used to feel that way about my work. Like I think early on in my career, spending so much time in the wreckage of people's

relationships made me think, "Oh, I I wish I didn't know how love ends because I could embrace it more. Like I wouldn't find it scary. I would just embrace it

more." And then I think I kind of moved

more." And then I think I kind of moved through that and realized like oh no like having the awareness of the fact that like you you can understand that a

star like the math of what a star is it doesn't make it less beautiful. It makes

it less mysterious >> but I don't think something has to be mysterious to be beautiful. I think that you can actually be blunt and honest about your feelings and your partner's

feelings and still be very like that can be very beautiful. In fact, I think it can be more beautiful.

>> Yeah. So you can know how the sausage is made and still >> and still want to eat the sausage. It's

still delicious. Yeah.

>> Really shove it down your throat.

>> Yeah, exactly. That Well, that's another good relationship tip.

>> Thank you. Thank you for all of it.

>> Um have Okay. The

>> do so you think it's it's uh we are called to it >> be despite knowing the history the the property you know exchanges and the >> Yeah.

>> and the dowies and all that stuff.

>> Some of it is cultural pressure. Yeah.

which I agree and and and you know tradition is is really two different things like tradition is in one sense like the wisdom of the people who came before us and their life experience

>> and tradition is also peer pressure exerted by dead people.

>> Yeah.

>> So >> it's they it's like OCD right of like no we do this is the way we do it.

>> So marriage is both of those things. I

think marriage is in some ways just like well you do that why because that's what you do because that's what grandpa did and that's what great grandpa did and that's what you do you know >> but I I don't I don't think that just

because something is now a unexplained and potentially hard to explain idea and seems like a bad idea on paper and statistically it seems like a bad

that it means it's definitely a bad idea like I I I I don't I think that we are called to this kind of connection with people. I I genuinely believe and again

people. I I genuinely believe and again I'm not terribly mystical but I don't think it's a you know it's a stretch to say that like we are created out of the

connection of male and female >> like we're that's not a controversial thing to say that like we as an organism we exist because someone put a penis in

a vagina like that's how that works. So

I I feel like that may be some invitation to like okay so how is this all this other stuff supposed to lead to that occurring, right? Like because

there's models of society where it wouldn't have to be that two people find each other interesting and get to know each other and then they decide, hey, can we rub our body parts against each

other? That might feel fun. like there's

other? That might feel fun. like there's

a a a way of of of structuring a society that doesn't involve that. You could

like go to particular clinics and people would just sort of you know create babies in there.

>> But I I think we we are call the architecture of our anatomy you know calls to this kind of connection. So

what do we do with that? Like I I think that it to me is an indication and also it's a feeling like my my I know that some of the peak experiences of my life

have been in the experience of romantic love. I just don't buy the idea that

love. I just don't buy the idea that we're supposed to look at relationships like success or failure. Like I I was married. I got divorced.

married. I got divorced.

>> I consider that marriage a success. It

produced two wonderful children. What if

it hadn't >> if we hadn't had children? What if it I I still think it was a success because I've had a lot of relationships that did not produce children. All of them but one >> that I know about. And I

>> if you what I'm saying it >> would it have been worth it just for the for the >> Yes.

>> connection.

>> Yeah, I think so. Like I mean I do too.

It's not popular to say and you'll get in trouble with a girlfriend to say it.

>> But like if you think of every relationship you've probably ever had >> if you don't focus on the end, which is unfortunately what we most often remember is how our past relationships

ended. So we remember this awful part of

ended. So we remember this awful part of it. Like if if you think back like

it. Like if if you think back like there's some moment or moments in every single one of them that you were like, "Oh, that was so good." Yeah. you know,

like I, you know, Steve Bartlett at the end of uh one of my interviews with him said, um, when when in your life did you feel the most loved?

And I actually like sat back for a second and I went, God, the slideshow in my head right now is like the nicest thing in the world. Like I'm reliving

all of these moments like and some of them are so silly, >> you know, like the time I was with a girl and we somehow like inadvertently walked all the way from Washington

Square Park to like, you know, the Time Warner Center like and we just looked up and we're like, "Oh my god, where are we?" You know, and we're like, "Dude, we

we?" You know, and we're like, "Dude, we just walked the whole length of >> we were just so lost in like talking to each other and like holding each other's hand like and that >> I think about that and I just go like

that was so lovely." Like that was such a that was one of those experiences in my life that was like just incredible, you know, and if you think about all of your past relationships and you can not

think just about the ending because the problem is like like you know when when my my mom passed away about nine years ago after a really terrible battle with cancer and the last two years of her life were awful. And I remember one of

my greatest fears when she was imminently dying and she had wasted away to nothing. She was like a skeleton. I

to nothing. She was like a skeleton. I

remember thinking, "This is how I will remember her." Like, "This is the last

remember her." Like, "This is the last memory I'm going to have of her, and this is always how I'll remember her."

And for a little while, it it was it was the freshest memory.

>> Yeah.

>> But now, nine years later, like, I can tell you I I rarely think about that.

Like, I remember her smiling and with hair and all that. Like, I remember her in very different and wonderful ways.

Memory can be very kind. I think when you end a relationship like it's very hard to not remember how it ended because that's the most approximate thing. But I think if you if you're

thing. But I think if you if you're honest like there were moments in there where you know in your heart like oh yeah like that's why this was worth it like this connection this moment and

that that's the thing that causes me my visceral exper people say to me all the time as a divorce lawyer like do you believe in love? I'm like that's that's like saying do you believe in gravity?

Like gravity exists whether I believe in it or not. Like I of course I believe in >> well it's do you believe in love? My

question is like what should we then do about it >> about love? I don't think love and marriage have anything to do with each other. I think that I think

other. I think that I think >> I have a line that I I said to Lucy one time. I said our relationship is getting

time. I said our relationship is getting in the way of our connection.

>> Yeah.

>> And >> Yeah.

>> It's cuz we just build up all this infrastructure of just nonsense of [ __ ] nonsense >> and habit.

>> Yeah. Like I don't know. Oh, I thought you liked that.

>> But that's hard when you cuz you know I I this is how I say people unintentionally ruin their own sex life because with good intentions they ruin their own sex life because think about

like we you start dating someone >> and you like just throw like everything you've got >> in the bedroom at them. Like you're like everything that ever worked with anyone else like everything you've seen that

looked okay she looks like you just [ __ ] throw it all and then pretty quickly you figure out okay she likes this, she doesn't like that. Okay, he

likes this, he doesn't like that. And

then what do you do?

>> Do that.

>> Play the [ __ ] hits, man. Yeah, play

the hits. Like I didn't go see Springsteen to hear like acoustic ghost of Tom Joe. Like play Born to Run.

You're not a real fine fine, you know?

Like, but I I I mean, listen, play that.

You give me like the part where I can go get a drink or something, use the bathroom, but like you you you you're not going to say like, "Oh, I forgot to do Thunder Road." Like, no, I came here to hear Thunder Road. So, I I think it's

the same thing. like you throw all the stuff then you refine it >> and then you kind of get almost like efficient where you're you know why not right like we all have a limited amount of bandwidth and time like it's let's

let's do the best things and the okay now what did I just do we've created a routine >> and now it's a habit we're caught in that habit this is the way we do it and now if you like call audible and do some

random different thing in the middle you'd actually notice like she would notice you would notice right away you'd be like whoa what was that like you don't usually do that and if you have the kind of relationship where you can talk about it, okay,

>> but many people don't.

>> So then they just don't do something different and now they're like, "Yeah, my sex life is really boring." And it's like, "Right, but it became boring."

Born of a really great desire of the two of you to really enjoy each other. So is

there a fix for that? I think there is.

I think the fix is you have to >> swing.

>> You have to stop swinging. The answer is swinging. It's a lifestyle.

swinging. It's a lifestyle.

>> It's a lifestyle.

thing of keys was that was Oh, that's so weird.

>> It's me, you, and this dude over here.

>> Um, >> do you have a Fiat? Cuz that's what I grabbed. That's a

grabbed. That's a >> You're facial hair.

>> Um, well, I Mike, as you say that, I'm kind of jumping around, but are people's expectations for their partner too high? I think I think I may

have heard you talk about the but I feel like now it's the everything marriage.

It's like you have to I don't I even the emotional part and I've been doing a bunch of jokes about it. It's

like when did you think men develop this skill >> to emotionally satisfy? Like when my dad didn't, my grandfather didn't, no one did it and now I'm supposed to do all

the physical [ __ ] and and the emotional [ __ ] Well, all first of all, the the Greek chorus now that's around us all the time of telling us like how we should be settling for nothing but the best and how the other side in the war

of men and women, >> all the girls are telling the girls how great they are and how much men suck and all the men are saying how much women are awful gold diggers and how great men are.

>> So, that's not helping.

>> But I also think, you know, like look, you're you're a a writer, a director, a performer, >> a host, you're a bunch of Yeah. It's

really just a quadruple threat and really I stand in awe >> and it's it's a quintuple threat and I'll punch you in the face >> and you do I didn't even know. So you

but you do all those things now to do all of those things and to do all of them at the absolute highest level like if I said to you okay rank your skills at those things like you'd say well here

you know my my writing is here my standup is here my whatever like but it wouldn't all be this is my all my best I'm the best at all of it. I I think it's the same thing in relationship like

this is your travel partner, your roommate if you live together, your uh financial partner if you have intermingled finances, your co-parent if you have kids, your dog or cat co-parent

if you have pets together. Like it's a hell of a diverse skill set that we're expecting of people. And we live in a world that's very quick to tell you if

they're not top tier at every single one of those things, they're not your soulmate. They're not your soulmate.

soulmate. They're not your soulmate.

>> Yeah.

>> And there's eight billion people in the world and your soulmate is still walking around out there because if they if they were the one, >> they would check all of those boxes. And

see, I I think that's how we [ __ ] a lot of things up in the world. Like

Starbucks used to make coffee, >> good coffee, and then someone said, you know, some people like tea. Let's have

tea. And then it's like, you know, you might want to eat a little something, so let's have cookies. You know that and jump ahead five years and they're like we have >> [ __ ] homeless people everywhere in there.

>> That is true actually. Yeah, it's

actually what that has to do with your >> shelter. Very little, but it's a very

>> shelter. Very little, but it's a very common New York gripe. I think it's the reason why we all avoid Starbucks now.

Starbucks restroom has become a a real venture into like like you're really in Fort Apache at that point.

>> But yeah, no, I I I think that we we try to do too many things. We try to be too many things. We try to master too many

many things. We try to master too many things in relationship instead of What's the skill set to what I said earlier of our relationship is getting in the way of our connection.

>> The the conversation that I was afraid to have that we've had and it's been I think transformative is me going like I'm not that uh attuned emotionally. I'm

not I'm not the the analogy I have is I have a couple versions of it like >> you may need a nurse more of a doctor.

I'm more of a doctor. I think most men kind of fall into that. I have a meaner version which I'll cover from the podcast which is you need a nurse [ __ ] I built the hospital.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Too mean. Can't can't use it.

>> Well, it's a different skill set though, >> right? But it's I the the thing that I

>> right? But it's I the the thing that I am good at and just saying it saying like I'm never going to be good at this. We can keep having this argument

>> or you can just go I'm going to need to get this somewhere else, right? Well, I

don't want to spend my life trying to get better at a thing that I'm never going to be very good at.

>> Right. And I think that that because of the nature of male and female coupling or or or romantic coupling in general, you you both have lots of options.

>> So, if you say to me, look, the most important you especially because it's just like you're out there just crushing it, you know, you're a Coxman at that level >> at that level, you know, but yeah. Yeah.

I thought because I signed the NDIA I wasn't allowed to talk about it. But

yeah, I I feel like you have to look at your relationship and say, "Okay, look, I'm not going to be exactly what you need at everything. So like what are the

priorities?" Like because the

priorities?" Like because the priorities, >> this is a I I this is the conversation to have. I I really believe it. Like,

to have. I I really believe it. Like,

hey, here's what I'm good at. Here's

what I think I'm good at.

>> Is that going to be enough for you? and

and and with the caveat that she may think it's going to be enough for her and then she turns out a couple months later it's like I thought it would be enough. It's not.

enough. It's not.

>> Well, and here's the [ __ ] I need to work on and I'm willing to work on >> and then here's the stuff that it's probably not going anywhere.

>> Yeah.

>> It's probably not changing. Like it's

constitutional. It's definitional in >> Yeah.

>> Like so I think there are some things that I could say, look, I'm not good at this, >> but but I I'd like to be. like if you need me to be, I'll learn how to be.

>> And then there's some I I gotta be honest. I

>> But I think that's part of the value of love. I think part of the value of of

love. I think part of the value of of love in general, I think connection with other people is it is an opportunity to get better at being a human being.

>> But what if you don't value the stuff?

It's like I need you to I need you to get good at crochet.

>> Yeah. Well, that's but that doesn't have value to you. That fits in that other category. But like I'm impatient. Like

category. But like I'm impatient. Like

I'm impatient. Like it's part of function that I build in six-inute increments. But like part of it is like

increments. But like part of it is like even in relationship I've always been impatient >> for what?

>> I don't enjoy small talk with someone who's not a good storyteller.

>> And so if I come home after a day of talking I live for it.

>> Yeah. So I I but I'm very All right.

Skip to the end. Like we got to land this [ __ ] plane. Like I can't like what >> Neil Brennan suffers fools gladly. This

guy [ __ ] loves fools sit there.

You're just like >> I always have fools. Like do you have more to that story? Cuz if you could just your way around like open mics and just watching people

>> I love an open mic.

>> Yeah, that's fun. That's fun. So we're

in that sense we would be a bad couple, >> you know. But I but that I guess it's the thing of admitting I'm never I think the trap that I fell into was anything I

wasn't good at I assumed I was just it was a horrible deficiency >> and I needed to work on it and I went to therapy every time I I've gone to therapy so much

>> with the with the kind of inner mandate of like make me like relationship more.

Yeah. Like I why don't I like this more?

this girl's ex on paper and I why don't I like it? And then I realized like I don't know Neil, you're running out of time.

>> Just find one that you like and the stuff you don't like just say I'm not good at this. Is it okay with you if it and I and I think >> well I think that's a very you know Bo

Burnham's advice done in music was like if you want love like find a guy and love him you know or if you want love find a girl and love her like that's what that's how you figure out love is

like by being in it.

>> I I think you know something I learned on um so I I go uh you know I go to a a intensive uh psilocybin retreat. Yeah,

we talked about this before. I'm excited

about it. I'm excited because I remember here to talk about >> it. Yeah, there's this uh it's called

>> it. Yeah, there's this uh it's called MOM Meditations. They're in Jamaica.

MOM Meditations. They're in Jamaica.

It's legal in Jamaica. And it's a it's a it's not like a I actually went to it thinking >> this is going to be awesome. Like it

taught me a lesson about not reading, not even a party. I just thought I want to do a bunch of psilocybin on the beach. It's going to be gorgeous and

beach. It's going to be gorgeous and have nice meals. I did. I should have read the website where it was like this is a therapeutic, you know, so it was like hours of group therapy and then

psilocybin sessions and then more group therapy and integration and then but one of the and I I've I do this every year and I I've benefited tremendously from

it. But one of the things that like the

it. But one of the things that like the lead facilitator was saying to me one day after group because in in in group therapy settings there's this temptation to like talk about all the [ __ ] you need to work on, all the things about yourself you want to change. And of

course, people are motivated sometimes to come to a therapeutic retreat because they want to change something about themselves.

And and uh Justin Townsen, who's the the the guy who's like the CEO and and lead facilitator, said to me, you know, what if you weren't a problem to be fixed?

>> Like what if that's not who you are?

Like what if you just stopped looking at yourself as a problem that needed to be fixed? And that may sound very simple,

fixed? And that may sound very simple, but I had never really considered that possibility that like I'm not something that I have to look at as as okay,

here's all the ways I have to change myself so that I'm better at these things that I may not find value in or I may not constitutionally,

you know, have in me. Like that may not be my thing, right? Like some people are good at certain things. Like I'm I'm not artistic. I imagine if I practiced and

artistic. I imagine if I practiced and tried, I could get better than how abysmally bad at it I am. But I will never be like what some people are just naturally good at. I mean, I'm sure you

there's standups that it's like they're just born for this. Like they're their proclivity to you're a perfect example.

Exactly. And and like it's >> I need more fingers.

>> It's you and a few. Yeah. I we get all Let's all point at Neil. So that's

great. Okay. Do you feel better now?

>> Are you people watching? Are you

pointing everyone should be pointing at your phone right now?

>> You just let me know when you're done.

You got to land this plane. You got to skip to the end. No, but I I I genuinely find value in what you've said, which is don't I think

looking at parts of going into therapy and saying, "Okay, the people around me or my intimate partner say I do this the wrong way, so I must be doing that the

wrong way." It's like no I I I my

wrong way." It's like no I I I my challenge has been and we're close to the same age that I've only really started to I think more deeply attend to is like oh yeah like become who you are.

>> Yeah.

>> That's the hardest thing to become. But

it's also the thing you're called to be you know so I I try to approach that like how do I become an authentic expression of myself? And I can't think

of a more noble goal in a marriage or in a like long-term committed romantic relationship than to say that your goal is that that lasts a lifetime, that

connection, the depth of it, and the joy you find in it together, more joy than suffering. And that at the end of it

suffering. And that at the end of it that they would say about you, that person helped me be the best version of myself.

Like that's the greatest compliment to say you helped me figure out who I authentically am and you helped me be the best version of myself and and

hopefully they did this for you as well.

>> I would I would dispute the word best.

>> Okay. The most authentic version of yourself.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> That's what I mean by best I think is like the most authentic version of >> best feels perform. And I

>> Yeah. No. I I mean like the most Yeah.

The most like real and authentic. the

part like we all know >> we feel it >> when we're like in it like when we're like oh yeah this is me like I'm at the best expression of myself it's very often you know you said it earlier like

oh like so how did it feel to be good at debate >> you know like when we are doing something we're good at or excellent at like I feel so a lot I always say work

is my favorite narcotic >> because whatever is going on in my life >> I am phenomenal at this job so I just have to go in like I I'm much better in

a courtroom than in my living room.

>> In my living room, I kind of don't know what to do with myself.

>> But in a courtroom, I know exactly what the rules are. I know exactly what the mission is. I know exactly what to do,

mission is. I know exactly what to do, how to do it. The rules of evidence I've I've just memorized, you know, and the rules in your living room are like much

more fluid and illdefined. And like I I don't they're nuanced. And I don't >> you do what I do, which is accuse somebody of something if you want to make it more like a courtroom.

>> That could be fun. Yeah. Like just do some cross-examination stuff.

>> All never stop cross-examining.

>> Never.

>> That's been my exhausting actually. I I

used to joke with my sons cuz like when they were teenagers, they would like try to engage me in an argument about something. Like I'd be like, "You got to

something. Like I'd be like, "You got to be in by 10." They were like, "What about 11?" I'm like, "I'm I can't argue

about 11?" I'm like, "I'm I can't argue unless you've paid, son." Like that's not that wouldn't be fair. Like it like it would be like if you said in your relationship like I can't be funny unless you've paid. Like it's rude.

People have paid me a lot of money to be funny.

>> And if you're not willing to pay, >> I can't just do it for free. That's

rude.

>> I'm uh there's never the postcoidal.

>> Mhm.

>> That 15 to 20 minute window.

>> Yeah.

>> Me and we'll call him Dave Chappelle used to talk about uh you're never funnier than that period.

>> Yeah.

>> And he calls them uh he calls them [ __ ] skits.

Yeah. So,

>> why do you think that is?

>> I think it's the glow. I think it's the thing of being great at something. She

she she had an orgasm, maybe a couple.

You had one. You felt connected. It was

It lasted at the right amount of time culturally.

>> I think it's also like >> there's a looseness. You feel

>> you're you're both naked. You're both

you both enjoyed each other's nakedness.

There's a level of acceptance within it.

I think it was Alan Watts who said that that the moment of orgasm is the closest that most people will ever come to like the Buddhist conception of enlightenment.

>> I think >> because it's the moment where you are thinking about absolutely nothing but what's happening in that exact moment.

>> Absolutely. And I think it's probably why although I've never done heroin, >> I I'm I am advised that that that first time that chasing the dragon concept

>> is rooted in it. It's like that same sensation of okay, I I am now feeling something so amazing >> that there is nothing else. The whole

world falls away and there's nothing else. And I think when I describe doing

else. And I think when I describe doing my work or when we describe like that, you know, that that posts sex feeling, >> it really is that you had this experience of like a deep

>> enlightenment in a moment like you've fully immersed yourself.

>> You shared a thing. You shared a really transcendent thing.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a and and again I think there's something very mysterious about all of this stuff like love, sex, like what even sex like it's ridiculous. Like sex is ridiculous. Like

ridiculous. Like sex is ridiculous. Like

if you look at it or think about it, like not in the performative artistic way that people do in pornography. Like

we're just it's friction. It's like

goofy, but yet it's like the most important thing. It's the best thing.

important thing. It's the best thing.

It's like fantastic, >> but it's so I mean it's absurd, you know? Like it's absurd and hilarious. I

know? Like it's absurd and hilarious. I

mean that this silly thing I mean don't I don't you know this is like you can cut this if you want to but like I I've always felt like you know because like like any man you know you jerk off and

there's don't you ever just I feel so silly the moment I come >> like you just are like >> you're like what God's name >> it's werewolf you're like a werewolf >> it really is you're like a werew yes and

I think I've heard you make that yes >> you're like what yeah I have a better version of like a new one >> but it is it's like the feeling of what happened What are my clothes? What? Who

am I?

>> What did I do? Like, what am I subscribed to? Oh, no.

subscribed to? Oh, no.

>> Why am I in this Starbucks?

>> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Who am I?

>> I have an acronym that I thought of and I think it's a good guide for relationships. And then we're going to wrap it up here. If you want to be in a good relationship, and it's an

unfortunate acronym, but and I'll give it to you at the end. You can guess it.

Find out what you're like within on your own, right?

Accept it what you're like and present it to someone with an offer of love.

>> Okay.

>> The acronym, FAP.

>> FAP. Yeah. So, more fapping. More

fapping.

>> Find out.

Accept it. Present it.

>> Present it. Well, you actually just So, fapping is the solution to when you said to me, "What is the key thing?" I said, "You don't know what you want and you don't

know how to share it with another person." And the answer is fapping.

person." And the answer is fapping.

>> It's It's called branding, guys. We're

both masters of it.

>> Boom.

>> He wears the same outfit every video.

>> Every video.

>> That's why he's a Nazi.

>> Yeah.

>> Um the medals are underneath.

>> James Ston, what's the book called? As

if that matters.

>> How to stay in love. How to stay in love. Great.

love. Great.

>> Practical wisdom from an unlikely source is the subject.

>> Um and but he and it's just just you'll get you'll start getting his content if you like this uh and if you subscribe >> even better.

>> The diversity of people that follow my stuff and like it bugs me out. Like last

week 50 Cent and John Mayer >> both like >> reached out.

>> That's a weird That's a weird combo of people to like repost videos of a divorce lawyer, you know? It's almost

like you're more than a divorce lawyer.

>> I don't know. It's all the >> That's my [ __ ] That's I own the copyright. I trust me. My lawyers are

copyright. I trust me. My lawyers are already way ahead. They're running to the >> st with those guys in suits or >> um Jim James J. Sexton Exquire guys.

Don't know what the why we're still doing Equire, but we >> we are in that [ __ ] >> Um I really liked it. I liked our talk.

I hope you >> too. I did too. I enjoyed it. Yeah.

>> too. I did too. I enjoyed it. Yeah.

Great to be friends. Absolutely. Bye.

All you have to do is open up your hand.