Jason Fried: Your Only Competition Is Your Costs

I want to start with what you told me last night that you feel the best way to make a product or the best way to make a product for you is by you are the actual customer. You are making the products

customer. You are making the products that you want to use. Yeah. I don't know how to do it any other way. Like I this is how I've always done it. So back when I was 15 16 I started in software making stuff actually something called

FileMaker Pro which is like way back when you can make these databases for yourself. And I I made this database to

yourself. And I I made this database to keep track of my music collection because I was loaning out tapes and CDs to friends and never getting them back.

So I'm like, I need a way to keep track of this stuff cuz I keep losing these things. So I made this product which I

things. So I made this product which I eventually called audio file, but I made it for myself. It was just this this database, right? And I made a nice

database, right? And I made a nice interface cuz I liked art. I like making stuff. And so I made this thing and uh I

stuff. And so I made this thing and uh I I eventually just decided that like I'll put a little text file in this in this archive of the software that said if you like this, send me 20 bucks. And I put up on AOL. So this is like pre-

internet, right? Put up on AOL. And I

internet, right? Put up on AOL. And I

got this envelope, actually an air mail envelope, the one of those with like the red and blue check marks, like old school like envelope from and it's from Germany. And I opened it up and someone

Germany. And I opened it up and someone had printed out this this piece of paper. Uh which was the thing I included

paper. Uh which was the thing I included with the software and gave me a $20 crisp US bill, right? And that was the moment I think I all clicked for me, which is make stuff for yourself.

There's probably other people out there like you who want what you want and make it available to sell. So, you are the customer. You are the audience. It's

customer. You are the audience. It's

you, you, you. And then there'll be other people just like you. We're not

all that unique. There's plenty of people who like what we like, plenty of people who don't, and there's plenty of products for them, too. But there's

enough that like what you like. And so,

that's why I got started.

>> Yeah. You have this this interesting idea where if you're just making what you want, right? Doesn't matter. You

just have to go and collect more people that like the things that you like and kind of ignore the people that don't.

Yes. And this is all tied into like keeping your cost low. So, you know, you if you have a lot of cost, high cost, big company, you have to find a lot of people like you. But if you keep your cost low, keep your company small. At

the time, it was just me, you know, when I was doing the software thing. And I

was making like, I don't know, 20 grand a year like selling software as a solo person when I was like 16 years old or something out of that or 17. Then I went to college a little bit as well.

And it's like that's an amazing little small side business, a huge side business when you're that age, right?

Because I had no expenses. And so so it's easy. I only had to find like, you

it's easy. I only had to find like, you know, a few thousand people to to pay me that money, 20 bucks, right, to to to get that eventually. But if I had a big business and I had a lot of people, a lot of overhead, I'd have to find a lot

of people like me, and that's harder. So

the whole game for me is to make things as simple as possible, as easy for me as possible. So keep your cost low, keep

possible. So keep your cost low, keep your company as small as you possibly can and make great stuff and then you don't have to find as many people just like you. But the ones you find really

like you. But the ones you find really love what you do and that's like that's enough. Like that is enough. You can

enough. Like that is enough. You can

stop there, keep doing stuff, but you can kind of stop there conceptually and go I'm going to make stuff for me, people like me. I don't need the whole world to like what I like. I need like enough of a small world to like what I like. And we're we're golden.

like. And we're we're golden.

>> You put it in a very interesting way.

said your real competition is your costs. Is that the line that you have?

costs. Is that the line that you have?

>> Yeah. It's your only competition.

Explain that.

>> Well, like a business is very simple.

You got to make more than you spend.

That's a business basically. Like I mean you can keep borrowing money and then you can, you know, borrow more than you spend and eventually you got to make more than you spend. So if you're making more than you spend, then your

competition is your cost and that's what you're really in business against is how much it costs you to stay in business.

It's not all the other alternatives that are on the market. Of course, like they exist and they're real, but you can't do anything about them. They're going to do what they're going to do. You're going

to do what they're you're going to do.

You can't control what they're going to put out there, what they're going to price it at, all the things they're going to do. They're going to do what they're going to do. What I can't control is how much it cost me to run my business, how much I sell my product for. And as long as I make more than I

for. And as long as I make more than I spend, I get to stay in business. And

isn't that what this is all about?

Staying in business. Like, that's what it's all about. Because I like this. We

like this. I want to keep doing this. I

can't keep doing it if I don't stay in business. I can't keep doing it if I

business. I can't keep doing it if I make less than it costs me to make the things that I make. So, I'm always thinking about the only competition I really have on an annual basis is to make sure that we make more as a company

than it costs us to run the company.

That's my real competition. This is

something I talk about over and over again on my other podcast founders where it's just like it is kind of weird how every single one of history's greatest entrepreneurs. They were obsessed about

entrepreneurs. They were obsessed about watching their cost from from Sam Walton to even Steve Jobs when he first started Apple, Andrew Carnegie, Rockefeller, like this this theme reappears over and over and over again. It's one of the

reasons why, you know, my main partners ramp because they want us they want to help companies control their costs. It

was like the perfect alignment for the audience and what these these history's greatest entrepreneurs are are saying.

But we we were talking the other day where it seems very fascinating how you know you can have a software company has insane margins and still lose money.

>> Yeah.

>> And when I talk to these young founders I'm like just go study the early days of Microsoft. Yeah.

Microsoft. Yeah.

>> It's like Bill Gates the first one of the most interesting stories was that the first 30 it's probably the most successful arguably the most successful software company of all time. First

software company to get to a billion dollars in sales of just pure software in a year. But the first 30 uh employees of Microsoft were Bill Gates, his

secretary, and 28 programmers. There's

no there was no fat at all. No fat.

>> That's something you talk about a lot.

Can you talk about your the importance of keeping cost low, small teams, and then you want essentially like no fat anywhere?

>> We had 62 people at at 37 Signals, and we've gotten as high as I think 80 at some point, and then we're about 63 or 62 right now, which is a feels really good. Um, but we also built a lot of

good. Um, but we also built a lot of things when we were much smaller. We had

like 12 people way back in the day or four people way back in the way way way days when we started out. So, I've

always been comfortable with small teams. I think that small teams work better, are better. There's fewer

there's less room for miscommunication because I don't think companies really have communication problems. They miscommunication problems. Like when you have too many people and too many layers and someone misses this and someone has to repeat something that happened. Like

I want to avoid all of that. get rid of all the things that get in the way of making good stuff. And I actually think too many people get in the way often times and you actually end up making worse stuff the more people who are

involved. So we just try to keep the

involved. So we just try to keep the team small. Any team we have making

team small. Any team we have making something is usually two people. Like

two people working on a feature, one programmer, one designer. That's pretty

much it. Sometimes someone else will come in here and there, but for the most part it's two people. And it also keeps us honest. It prevents us from making

us honest. It prevents us from making things that we can't make with two people. So it just keeps everything

people. So it just keeps everything tight and simple and clear and you just keep parlaying that. Keep adding that stuff up and you end up with a very tight product with a small surface area that's you can see the whole thing. You

can hold the whole thing. You know how it all works. Your customers can see the whole thing and hold the whole thing and know how it works. And that's all people want. People don't want complicated

want. People don't want complicated stuff. They don't want software that's

stuff. They don't want software that's full of things they don't use. People

will sometimes buy things like that because they're sold things like that, but when it really comes down to it, that's not what they actually want. And

people who buy software, who buy our software, are the people who use the product. A lot of enterprise companies

product. A lot of enterprise companies sell software to a buyer who then makes other people use the product and everyone hates those products. But

people who use our products, buy our products, and it's the same person. So,

they're looking for stuff that just works really well. I've just found there's no better way to do that than to keep the company small and tight. And

and that that that goes everywhere. like

we don't have any middle management. Um

we've tried a little bit. We've had

that's why we had 83 people at one point. We hired a few more people to

point. We hired a few more people to build out a little bit of a team and then pulled back from that and go we don't that wasn't helpful.

>> What did you not like about that?

>> But there's two people on the executive team, me and David, my business partner.

That's that's it. We've had a COO for a while. They were fine. They were good

while. They were fine. They were good people. We just didn't there wasn't

people. We just didn't there wasn't enough work for them, frankly, to to do the work. So they were doing things that

the work. So they were doing things that they didn't need to really do. And then

when you do stuff you don't really need to do, you feel bad for them in a sense because they're like wasting their professional life doing things they don't really want to do that doesn't need to get done. So that doesn't feel

good. Um we've had like engineering

good. Um we've had like engineering managers and we found out again that there was like too many levels in between David who's the CTO and the people doing the work. He had to like talk to someone else who talked to

someone else and it's like a game of telephone. Things are lost in

telephone. Things are lost in translation along the way. So you just we we tried those things. We had some thoughts that maybe this would be a better thing for us to do and we turned out it it turned out not to be a better thing to do. How long does it take you

to realize a year?

>> Okay.

>> Basically COO roles were longer. They

were three years. We tried it twice. For

the most part, we give everybody about a year to prove themselves at 37 Signals.

And so we hire somebody and they have about a year until we decide if we're going to hire them again. That's how I think of the second year. It's a rehire.

It's not like a performance review where we look at numbers and it's like one simple question. I always try to like if

simple question. I always try to like if I can I always try to boil everything down to a question that answers all the other questions. So the question we ask

other questions. So the question we ask after the first year with any new employee is knowing what I know now would I hire them again? And that

answers pretty much every question.

Answers every question about performance, about attitude, culture, fit, all the stuff. If I know what I know now, would I hire them again? And

so it turned out with the management stuff, we're like it wasn't even about the people, it was more like now that we know what we know now, would we create this position again? And the answer was

no. So we eliminated those positions and

no. So we eliminated those positions and never rehired for them. So that's how we kind of got back a little bit to to a smaller size.

>> Does that work with products too or features of products?

>> It can. It's harder. You roll back people. You roll back entire products.

people. You roll back entire products.

Do you ever roll back features?

>> We have done that in some ways typically. So every five six years we

typically. So every five six years we kind of reinvented base camp which is our main product uh biggest product.

>> Do you write it from scratch?

>> We have in the past. So from from base camp 1 to base camp 2 was a total rewrite. From two to three was a total

rewrite. From two to three was a total rewrite. 3 to four was not and four to

rewrite. 3 to four was not and four to five which we're working on now is not.

But it's a chance to revisit a lot of fundamental assumptions about what the product does and how it works. And I'm

always trying to make I'm trying to buck the trend, right? human nature is is about expansion typically. Like things

tend to expand, but in the physical world, there's also like limits that push back on those expansions. Like if

this mug was burning hot, like we would know that's a bad design. If if this handle if there's no handle here and I had to hold it this way, uh maybe not a good mug. Like there's there's physics

good mug. Like there's there's physics here. Like you look at this if this

here. Like you look at this if this thing was made of of a really really fragile material or something that would like melt if it got wet, you'd be like that's a bad design. like there's some things that are telling you this is a

bad design. In software, you don't get

bad design. In software, you don't get that. Software can be anything. It's

that. Software can be anything. It's

infinitely malleable. And what ends up happening is because there's nothing pushing back, it just expands forever and gets worse. Software slides

downhill. It gets better for a while then slides downhill. So, I'm conscious of that and I'm always trying to make sure that every new version we make of something is a little bit simpler in the fundamental ways than the previous

version. It might have more features,

version. It might have more features, but the experience hopefully is simpler.

That's like the big challenge and actually the frankly like the most fun part of of of building products over the long term is can we buck the trend of having them slide downhill and instead like maintain and make them even better

over time.

>> Why is that fun?

>> It's hard. And that's fun. It's a bit of a puzzle. It's a bit of pushing back

a puzzle. It's a bit of pushing back against the forces of nature typically, which again would be to expand. It's

forcing us to come up with clever solutions to problems, more creative solutions to problems. It forces me to understand what something really is and not like what it could be or what I think other people think of it as, but

like what is this really trying to do?

And it's fun to have these insights. So

like my my favorite thing in life, frankly, is to like have an insight. And

I don't get to decide when I have them, right? No one does. if you just like

right? No one does. if you just like have one, right? Maybe it's in the shower, maybe it's whatever. You just

have an insight. And it's cool to work on a problem in software and then have an insight about how to make it simpler.

And I find that for me, for whatever reason, I bounce into those insights very frequently making software, more so than pretty much anything else I do. So,

it's fun to make something new because I get to have more insights into how to make it simpler and better. And that's

just like what for whatever reason that that's where they come from, like the shower and the software.

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We we were talking a lot about this conversation I just had with Toby Luke, I know both you and I admire him.

>> Oh yeah.

>> And what I love about Toby that you have in you as well is like when you talk to him, the next response out of his mouth is like not predictable.

>> Yeah.

>> And some of his like views are not correlated with one another which also makes it really interesting. So like for example, you've been running your company, started your company when you're 25.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh you've been running for 27 years. You

guys have been profitable every single year. Y

year. Y >> uh you have made you know you have millions of customers over the lifetime of the customer of the business you've made hundreds of millions of dollars and

yet you told me that if you ever sell the company you don't want to look at a computer again.

>> Yeah. I don't I first of all I I don't like being consistent. I'm not that interested in being consistent first of all. So your point about like saying

all. So your point about like saying something that kind of conflicts with something else you said to me it's just like it's all about context. It's not

about consistency. I don't find consistency interesting in any way, shape, or form. To me, it's all about the context, which is why like I don't like to plan. I don't have long-term plans. I like to make things up as I go.

plans. I like to make things up as I go.

So, that's all tied tied into that. Um,

but yeah, I don't particularly like business. I like running my business.

business. I like running my business.

Like, I figured out how to run my business, but the idea of me running another business, like I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. Maybe

do that. I don't want to do that. Maybe

I maybe I could create another one that's mine and I would like it, but I don't think I could actually. And I

think that we're a product of timing and and and teams and the right people at the right time and the right ideas at the right time and all that stuff.

That's what made this thing and continues this thing. But to start over again to run a business, no thank you.

And frankly, the other thing is I would never trade my business for anyone else's business. I I don't want anyone

else's business. I I don't want anyone else's business. I don't want to put

else's business. I don't want to put myself in someone else's shoes. I I I know how to do my thing. And like that's enough for me. I don't need to like stroke the ego and go, I could do this again somewhere else. I could turn

something I I don't think I could do this ever again, but I don't need to.

And that's okay. Like I this this sense of just being comfortable with what you've built and what you're working on now, being enough is for me a very

peaceful place to be. And I think that that's uh unfortunately not something that's talked enough about in our ind my industry which is tech which is grow

grow get as big as you can sell valuations do it again serial entrepreneurship like I >> it's boring to me all that's boring.

Okay. There's a million things I want to unpack there. You said a bunch of

unpack there. You said a bunch of things. The serial entrepreneurship I

things. The serial entrepreneurship I want to um hit on because you and I were talking about the conversation I had with John Mackey. Yes. where he was referencing uh some of his friends just love to like start and you're like oh I

actually have like this metaphor that I want to start talking about and it is envelopes and letters >> envelopes and letters.

>> Yeah. And then we'll go back to the fact that you don't like business and that you only like and you're not really important too don't let me forget is you have no sense of envy like I know I know

you try not to other people's businesses like I don't think that is an act.

>> No I I I would not trade my business for anyone's business. So, I don't envy

anyone's business. So, I don't envy anyone's business. In fact, it'd be a

anyone's business. In fact, it'd be a downgrade. Anyone's You could pick

downgrade. Anyone's You could pick anyone if any, if you got to decide if you got to decide. You're like, "Jason, would you trade this business?" I No.

Any business I wouldn't take. I'd take

mine over anyone else's business. So,

like I don't have >> What is the underlying thought there?

It's just like I built the company I want to work at. I built the business I I want to be in. Like, no one else has that. I have that. That's my thing. Now,

that. I have that. That's my thing. Now,

they have their thing. I have my thing.

Like, I love what I've built. It's

great. I'm very happy with it and it's a good fit for me. You know, I don't want to wear someone else's clothes. I don't

want to do someone else's stuff. I don't

want to live up to someone else's expectations. Like, we have ours, we do

expectations. Like, we have ours, we do our thing, we do our thing our way, and that's it. And if if I had to do my

that's it. And if if I had to do my thing someone else's way, it would just it'd be a game of charades. And there's

a lot of people, I think, playing entrepreneur, I don't want to play entrepreneur.

>> What does playing entrepreneur mean to you?

>> It means a lot of things to me, but but I think there's a lot of people who who This is Let's get into the envelope thing because this is kind of part of that. Okay.

that. Okay.

>> And I remember when I was getting started being an envelope guy. So the

envelope to me there's there's this two sides of business basically. There's the

envelope and there's the letter. The

envelope is the outside the shell. The

business the vehicle that holds the letter and the letter is the product or products. I'm a product guy. I love

products. I'm a product guy. I love

product. That's all I care about. The

business side just has to exist to hold the product, right? Like it just that's the vehicle in which the product travels in. But I don't care about the envelope.

in. But I don't care about the envelope.

so much. But there's lots of people, and I remember this early on when I first started my business. I was thinking about the brand and and the business and how big it could be and what how do I describe it and what do I call it?

That's all envelope work. That's like

all on the outside. And I think there's a number of people, and by the way, it's fine. All this is fine. What I'm getting

fine. All this is fine. What I'm getting at is you got to know who you are and what you want out of yourself and what you want to do. And if you're an envelope person, that's fine. If you're

a product letter person, that's fine.

But you got to know who you are. I know

I'm not an envelope person. I don't just want to build shells. that gets filled and then I sell it and build another shell. It gets filled and I sell it and

shell. It gets filled and I sell it and build another shell and gets filled and I sell it. I want to just work on the letter and the the envelope is just the thinnest little thing that needs to be there to hold the letter. I think

playing entrepreneur is like spinning up businesses all the time and making all sorts of stuff and giving it a name and giving it a logo and trying to raise money and and coming up with valuations and talking about all this stuff and

there's like nothing of substance inside that yet. Maybe there will be, but in a

that yet. Maybe there will be, but in a lot of cases there's nothing. There's

just losses and and then it's like a ma mad rush to get out at a certain valuation for other people who put money in. Like that's like turning a business

in. Like that's like turning a business into an asset, a financial instrument.

It's just not interesting to me. I want

to make things. I want to build products and and that's what I do. Again, that's

what we do. And just the idea of of a business being a financial instrument is just like it's anathema to me. I it's

just kind of it's repellent actually.

>> Why does it need You just use the word thin shell to describe the envelope. Why

do you want I want it to be a thin shell.

>> Oh, >> what does that mean?

>> Well, I would say this. Um the more mass of an object, the more energy it takes to change its direction, right? This is

just like this is getting back to basic physics. A thick sh When I think of this

physics. A thick sh When I think of this stuff and sometimes these metaphors don't perfectly line up, but in my head I think of like a thick business. It's

it's hard to change. It's heavy. It's

massive. It's it's there's too much distance between it and the customers and it and the product. There's space

like right you can imagine like if you just imagine something very thick. This

is the thing that matters and you got to go through all this and compress all this down to get to the thing that matters. Like I don't like that. I think

matters. Like I don't like that. I think

the thing that matters should be big and that the rest of it should be as thin as possible. And so that's what we've tried

possible. And so that's what we've tried to build at 37 signals. is a very thin business with a thick set of products that are good and solid and real and

generate real profits and are real businesses. And then the rest of it is

businesses. And then the rest of it is just enough to hold it all together.

That's like my vision for business. It's

not the only vision. I plenty of people way more successful than me don't see it this way. I don't care. Like this is

this way. I don't care. Like this is just how I see it and how I'm sharing it. But and and it's ma mainly just to

it. But and and it's ma mainly just to show people that like you don't have to go big. It doesn't have to be a big

go big. It doesn't have to be a big thick heavy busy company. It can be very thin and then focus on the product and get to a place where you can find out people like you. Get to this place where

enough is enough and then maintain.

Another way to think about this for me I always go back to these sort of weird metaphors is like you know there's the hockey stick right chart right that is like unappealing to me. I like more of

like a metaphor where it's more like um like a rocket into orbit. So I you got to get off the ground and you got to break free of of gravity, but then there's a point where you actually just

want to sit in orbit and sort of maintain. You want to be within a

maintain. You want to be within a certain range and fluctuate a little bit up, a little bit down, but be in this comfortable place where you're just orbiting. You're not breaking a force

orbiting. You're not breaking a force anymore. You're not pushing super hard.

anymore. You're not pushing super hard.

you're maintaining and and maintaining a level of quality, maintaining a level of enjoyment and just orbiting now. And I

think that that's a really wonderful place for businesses to be. But I

wouldn't encourage you to be trying to get to orbit year two. You got to be like on the ride up to break free of all the forces that are holding you back.

But then you should also find a place where you can settle in in orbit versus people who I think are just busy constantly trying to grow, grow, grow and get as big as they possibly can. And

I always say like why?

I'm like so what if you if you're massive and you're twice as massive?

Like so what? Why? Why? What's that all about? And they may have an answer for

about? And they may have an answer for you. I I don't I don't I don't know what

you. I I don't I don't I don't know what the answer would be other than like just growing for growth's sake.

>> But I I'm a big fan of getting somewhere and then holding.

When I think of you, I think one of your maxims that you repeat the the most is that that idea. Like I hear you say so what all the time. So much questions.

>> Explain more about that. Well, you'd

have to ask a question. That would be like, so what? I don't know. Like, why

why grow? I I mean, maybe that's not a good one, but um for example, like >> we're definitely leaving money on the table. I'm sure of it. Like, we don't

table. I'm sure of it. Like, we don't optimize our pricing. I'm not I'm not testing pricing not constantly. We're

not AB testing constantly. I'm I'm

certain there's some formula that we're not following that could lead to more growth, more revenue, more whatever, more whatever. And my answer is like,

more whatever. And my answer is like, "So what?" Like, I'm very comfortable

"So what?" Like, I'm very comfortable with where we are. We've got a great business, high margins, very predictable. Um, we make new stuff all

predictable. Um, we make new stuff all the time. We enjoy ourselves. We have a

the time. We enjoy ourselves. We have a great time. Like, I don't want to [ __ ]

great time. Like, I don't want to [ __ ] that up.

I think people [ __ ] it up all the time.

They they you get to the right size and for whatever reason, you can't be content there. And you push a little bit

content there. And you push a little bit too much, too hard, and you lost what was great about what you were doing. And

so this whole thing about there's money on the table and maybe there isn't, maybe there isn't, maybe there's a way to optimize, maybe there isn't. I just

it doesn't interest me. So it's so what to that? I don't really care. Tell me if

to that? I don't really care. Tell me if this observation that I have about you is correct.

>> Yeah. You seem to have this inherent natural revulsion against optimization.

>> Yeah. I don't like optimization.

>> Okay. Actually, okay. So here's the consistency thing. It's all about

consistency thing. It's all about context. I don't like optimization

context. I don't like optimization around numbers. Like I'm just picking we

around numbers. Like I'm just picking we can make 5 million on this. Well, it'd

be amazing if we can make 5.1 if we did XYZ. I I don't care about the XYZ to

XYZ. I I don't care about the XYZ to make 5.1. But I am interested in

make 5.1. But I am interested in optimizing a product to make it better.

That to me is a worthwhile optimization.

Like it's better for me because I use it. It's better for our customers

it. It's better for our customers because they use it. That's fun. But

like squeezing out an extra hundred grand off 5 million or something is just like not fun. It's boring. Not fun.

Boring. Like actually beyond not fun.

Boring. I don't even know what would be beyond that. But I not interested in

beyond that. But I not interested in that at all. I'd rather spend the money making the thing I make better. That is

the thing I'm here for. Not to squeeze an extra 100 grand out of something or an extra million out of something. I I

don't care. It doesn't matter. Like

there's a point where you're doing well enough where it shouldn't matter anymore. Um, now that might make me a

anymore. Um, now that might make me a bad CEO. Maybe someone else would come

bad CEO. Maybe someone else would come in my business and double the business overnight. That might be totally true

overnight. That might be totally true and I'm willing to accept that that's the case. My answer would be so what? I

the case. My answer would be so what? I

don't care.

>> I don't even think you think of yourself as a C. And there goes the so what again?

>> You asked for it.

>> No, I don't think you could help yourself. I don't think you think of

yourself. I don't think you think of yourself as CEO.

>> I I don't I don't actually even like the term, frankly. Okay. Like executive

term, frankly. Okay. Like executive

officer.

>> What of what?

Like I make products. I run the company with David. David and I run it together.

with David. David and I run it together.

Like I don't need the CEO. How do you >> chief? Chief executive officer of what?

>> chief? Chief executive officer of what?

Again, like of what? Like we make decisions. That's what we do. We make

decisions. That's what we do. We make

decisions. We make products. We hire

great people that we like. We find

people with zero drama. Like we put together a team. We set out to make things. We take really good care of

things. We take really good care of people, really good care of our customers. We make good products that we

customers. We make good products that we really like. great products hopefully,

really like. great products hopefully, right? Um, I got to leave a little bit

right? Um, I got to leave a little bit of of of room there for some humility.

Like, we can always make better products. So, I'm not going to call our

products. So, I'm not going to call our products fantastic. They are good.

products fantastic. They are good.

Great. There's always room for for making those better. But, as far as as like being a CEO and whatever that's supposed to mean, I don't know what the hell that means. Yesterday, I answered like 200 emails from my customers. Is

that like some people would say that's irresponsible for a CEO to spend their time emailing customers? Like I think it's the best thing you can do, >> but I don't think of myself as a CEO.

>> I would say whoever whoever says that's not a good use of your time.

>> Say it, dude.

>> Yeah. But like they need to listen to founders because they're all like this.

The the the best entrepreneurs and founders in in history and I think what me and you bond over is exactly that.

Like I all I care about is products. I

don't care about anything else. I think

the way you think of yourself as a designer.

>> Yeah.

>> Is that correct?

>> Yes. Uh sure.

>> Okay.

>> Presumptuous like I I think of it. Yes.

Fine.

>> You're not a presumptuous person. I

didn't mean it that way. I know you didn't.

>> Yeah, but when I talk to you, it's like you just design everything in your life.

>> I like to make things that. But you you put a lot of there's a you're a very thoughtful guy and you see the like how much thought you put into the design of everything in your life. It just happens

you've also put a lot of thought into designing products in the business again to fit exactly who you are as a person.

Yeah. As best I can. I mean I have a family and I have kids and like you don't always get the way you want them to be, right? But like you do your best and you live within a system that you're proud of and happy with and that's I think a big part of it. The best

founders I see this over and over again like they they're always you said something about like the thickness of the envelope and all this stuff that's between the person running the company and the customer. You have to make that

as small almost non-existent as possible. One of my favorite examples is

possible. One of my favorite examples is this this an example for over 100 years ago the found Jim Casey the founder of >> UPS >> he what he realized is like he had all these executives he paid attention to

incentives he realized they would over time just tell him what he wants to hear and so therefore he was only getting he was getting his ass kissed all the time not getting useful information so he's like forget this I'm not I don't want to

talk to them he would he would have he had a driver and they would drive on the streets and he just says every time you see a brown truck brown UPS truck you pull over and he would just talk directly to the He spent all his time

talking to the person that's doing >> actually doing the work for the customer. So I don't think I don't think

customer. So I don't think I don't think anybody saying Jeff Bezos I know he he own he's a partner your of yours you know it's a percentage of your company you know he railed about this forever

>> and he made every single executive you have to spend a day or a week or a month or whatever it was on customer support.

Yeah, we do the same thing. We haven't

done that for a bit, but we used to do that. We should do it again actually. We

that. We should do it again actually. We

used to have this thing called everyone on support where people would do it for for a day uh rotate through the company.

Um mostly so I would do it and so David would do it and now I do it anyway. Um

but it's very important I think um you know there there's a there's a there was a when I lived in Chicago, there was a grocery store down the street called Olivia's. There still is. Um, and I got

Olivia's. There still is. Um, and I got to know the owner. And I appreciated the fact that he got to know his customers personally because they'd walk in the store and he would say hello, right?

That's how I got to know him. I don't

unfortunately have that opportunity.

Like, we have hundreds of thousands of people who use our products. And it's it actually frustrates me that I don't know all of our customers. Like, I could walk past on the street, I could walk past 75

of our customers on a given day and I wouldn't know that. He would know cuz he would know who they are and he knew their family, the whole thing. So, I've

always tried as best I can to get as close to I can't get as close to our customers. We have too many of them in

customers. We have too many of them in that sense. But whenever you sign up for

that sense. But whenever you sign up for Base Camp, the first thing you see is a letter from me um with my email address, my signature and my email address. And I

want my customers to email me. I don't

want to hide from anybody. There's no

AI, there's no assistant, there's no levels between it all. Just write me.

And people do all the time. And we have in our books as well. We have our email address in our books. I want to get as close to pos as possible to the people who use the things that we make. Not

just to make them happy because I want to make myself happy, too. We are the first customer of our products, but to understand what they're doing with them, to understand the language they use, how they describe them, who they are. I want

to know these things because somehow it permeates me and I and I just I get to feel what it's like to be them and get to understand what it's like for them to use the lever that we've made for them

to move something. And there's no other way to do that for me than to just share my email address cuz I don't get to meet people in person like this guy who runs a grocery store. But I love businesses like that. People who I love the dry

like that. People who I love the dry cleaners been there for 40 years. I love

the local grocery store. I just love business. Those to me are so much more

business. Those to me are so much more interesting than the billion dollar whatever. I just don't

whatever. I just don't >> That's a great question. Um

I feel like I feel like they're more real. I like real things. Um, for

real. I like real things. Um, for

whatever that means, I you define it however you'd like, but a billion dollar business or a10 billion dollar business just it doesn't feel like a real thing to me. It feels like a a concept. Um,

to me. It feels like a a concept. Um,

meanwhile, the dry cleaner down the street, I can drop off my shirt, I get it cleaned, I bring it up, I pick it up from the person who owns the place. This

is her living. This is what they do.

There's something for me that I connect with something that's real uh that I feel like I can hold in my head and I can I can understand. I keep coming back to this well not keep but I have already

in this interview once this idea of the surface area and like an a business as an object. I want to be able to see the

an object. I want to be able to see the whole thing and understand the whole thing. A massive entity with tens of

thing. A massive entity with tens of thousands of people and billions of dollars and whatever. I just I don't understand it. And that's maybe my own

understand it. And that's maybe my own shortcoming or whatever. I don't really care again. Like I don't need to

care again. Like I don't need to understand that. It's not my thing. Um

understand that. It's not my thing. Um

but I just prefer smaller businesses and that's mo our customers are small business owners and I just I don't care about enterprise customers. I don't want them. I like small medium-sized

them. I like small medium-sized businesses. They're more like me. I

businesses. They're more like me. I

understand who they are. I understand

what they do. I like that kind of stuff.

So a business that can't be beyond a single person's comprehension. Like you

can understand dry cleaners very you you gave this great story. Um I don't remember if it was in one of your books or not. There was like this you have you

or not. There was like this you have you have like a love of craftsmanship uh that I get from your writing and yeah there's like a pizza place where it's

like he will only sell is it the fresh dough and he has no it's a sandwich place. Can you tell this

place. Can you tell this >> when they ran out of bread? I'm not

there. I don't know if they're in business anymore. They're in Chicago. Uh

business anymore. They're in Chicago. Uh

Vinny's I think was the name of the place on Chicago Avenue if anyone wants to look it up.

>> Sandwich place. Sub Italian joint you know whatever. go in and and the s

know whatever. go in and and the s they're open as long as they have bread >> and they just sell out and they're closed. That's it. They're done.

closed. That's it. They're done.

>> They're not making like they're not that compensation.

>> Yeah. They could I'm sure get more sacks of bread from that. It's actually comes like in a sack, you know, like the big baguettes or whatever and like they just run out. They're done. They maybe

run out. They're done. They maybe

usually it's like 2:30 or something.

There's no hours on the door. They close

when they close when they're done for the day. I just there's something to me

the day. I just there's something to me very poetic and beautiful about that.

And like again enough. It's just it comes back to this idea of there's enough in that they're done for the day.

It's enough. They sold enough. But he

does that because >> they could sell more. But then where do you stop? But this is the thing.

you stop? But this is the thing.

>> But it's the quality though, right?

Because then >> I mean you're right. It is the quality too. But they could get more quality

too. But they could get more quality bread also. But there's Okay. So where

bread also. But there's Okay. So where

do you stop?

>> Like where does this end? Well, we could stay open till 6:30. I mean 7 probably.

We could do 7:30. Someone's still at the door. We could do eight. You could you

door. We could do eight. You could you could see how this doesn't end and how a a business like that could consume everything and then you begin to not like it because there's nothing else in your life but that then you're so

attached to it like you can see how this could expand to that degree. I I just think this idea of like well you're done at 2:30 is healthy. I think the business

lasts longer because of that. I think

like if you think about like you don't probably get bored of a business like that. There's something about that

that. There's something about that versus this idea of a business that you have to maximize and fully fill all your time, all your energy, everything, all the I just I don't I I can understand

the appeal there for a while, but I also think there's something very just simply beautiful about enough. Now, I don't own that business. They might wish they had

that business. They might wish they had a lot more revenue and sold a lot more sandwiches. So, I I also want to

sandwiches. So, I I also want to recognize the fact that I'm looking at this from the outside. I'm an objective observer. I don't know the realities of

observer. I don't know the realities of that business, but I'm just observing what I think is a beautiful thing. Uh,

which is a business that's been around for a long time, familyowned, does enough business for them to support themselves and their employees, make great food for their customers. Like,

isn't that what this is about?

>> Are you proud of how long that you've been able to stay in business?

>> I'm not proud of it. Like, I'm not I didn't mean that like in a negative way.

It's like pride is not a I I I I feel fortunate.

>> Is the time important to you? Like if I could tell you, okay, you can make the same exact amount of money that you made in 27 years, but you made it in 15 and you're done.

>> You take the 27?

>> I would take the 27 >> because I like Duke, but the money is a side effect of all of this, right? So,

so >> all the money does like Patrick who who you interviewed, right?

>> Yeah.

>> I I love what he said about work. It's

like I think something like I work so I could work more or something like that, right?

>> The reward for good work is more work is to keep going.

>> Great way to phrase it. And so that's why 27 years is more interesting than 15. I like this stuff. Like

15. I like this stuff. Like

>> the beauty about this for me is that somehow we've managed to build this system, this thing, this company, these products that sustain over a long period of time that allow us to enjoy our craft

and our work over a long period of time.

And we are in control of that as much as we can be. The market can change.

Anything can happen at any time.

But I can control my cost. I can control my quality. I can control my messaging

my quality. I can control my messaging as best I can. And we can make the best thing we can over time and keep making that thing. Like that's like that's why

that thing. Like that's like that's why I want to that's what I want to do. This

is my whole point. I don't want to trade my position with anybody for anything. I

can love what other people do too. I do

like there's great products all over the place. I'm like, "Wow, that's an amazing

place. I'm like, "Wow, that's an amazing thing that someone made." Like, for example, um, one of my favorite products is the Concept 2 rower. Are you familiar with this?

>> Yes.

>> I don't know anything about the company, but I can reverse engineer that. I bet

it's a badass killer company, too.

Because that's how I look at things, by the way. I look at the products, not the

the way. I look at the products, not the companies. Look at the products and go,

companies. Look at the products and go, "Oh, that's a great product. I bet

that's a great company." Or, "This this product is is nah, I don't like this product. I bet the company's kind of I

product. I bet the company's kind of I do this for people. If you can make a great product, you're probably interesting person to talk to.

>> Yeah, I could see that reverse thing as well. I mean, again, look to the inside

well. I mean, again, look to the inside to figure out what what forms on the outside. So, Concept 2 is probably one

outside. So, Concept 2 is probably one of my favorite products of all time. The

Concept 2 rower. Their bikes are good, too, and they they make a ski machine, too. But the rower is like my favorite

too. But the rower is like my favorite machine, and I love it because it is so well built. First of all, it's under

well built. First of all, it's under 1,000 bucks, and it's been under 1,000 bucks, I think, forever. And it's been around forever. There's been different

around forever. There's been different variations of it, but they're always improving on a theme. It's roughly the same thing every iteration, but slightly better. It comes in a big box, very easy

better. It comes in a big box, very easy to assem. It's a big machine, but comes

to assem. It's a big machine, but comes it's very easy to assemble. Um the the display is black and white LCD, not even LED, LCD with like five rubberized

buttons and then I think there's two other ones. It runs on C or D batteries.

other ones. It runs on C or D batteries.

No electricity, no plugging in, no recharge. Oh [ __ ] like it's done. Uh,

recharge. Oh [ __ ] like it's done. Uh,

get some new batteries. Like, it just works. The buttons you press, there's no

works. The buttons you press, there's no touch screens. The thing is reliable. It

touch screens. The thing is reliable. It

always works. It's incredibly durable.

It does exactly what it's supposed to do with nothing else. And I look at that and I go, that is a perfect product. One

of the few perfect products I've ever seen. Like a paperclip and a Concept 2

seen. Like a paperclip and a Concept 2 rower. Like, hard to improve on both of

rower. Like, hard to improve on both of those things. Like, I have deep

those things. Like, I have deep admiration for that kind of thing. I

still wouldn't want to trade my company for theirs because I don't know anything about what they do. I know what I do, but um I can still like respect and admire all sorts of things and all sorts of companies, but I still wouldn't want

to be them. I like what we do and I like that I can do it for a long period of time. And hopefully I'll do it for as

time. And hopefully I'll do it for as long as I feel like I want to do it. And

then at some point we'll decide that we're not going to do it anymore. And I

don't know when that'll be. Um I'm

always a year-to-year guy. I'm a

day-to-day guy when it comes to planning. Like I talked about a little

planning. Like I talked about a little bit earlier, I don't I don't believe in long-term planning. I believe in being

long-term planning. I believe in being around for the long term, but I think the best way to do that is day by day, not like quarter by quarter or year by year. Just figure out today and figure

year. Just figure out today and figure out tomorrow and figure out tomorrow.

I've always been like mystified by people who think they can figure out the next three years today, but they're afraid of figuring out tomorrow tomorrow. Like I I I need to plan the

tomorrow. Like I I I need to plan the next three years. So I can do that. I

can plan like what uh 900 or thousand days in advance but like tomorrow I can't figure things out if I don't have a plan. Like you can figure things out

a plan. Like you can figure things out tomorrow if you can figure things out for the next thousand days.

>> Explain how you plan day by day.

>> There's no plan. I mean like we have a direction. So the way the way I think

direction. So the way the way I think about this and this is like again another weird metaphor perhaps but I I think of our business and maybe me even like like like I'm a squirrel.

Okay, you probably weren't expecting this. So you watch a squirrel run across

this. So you watch a squirrel run across a field. What does it do? Like it knows

a field. What does it do? Like it knows where it wants to go roughly and it runs and it scurries and it stops and it looks around and then it scurryries some more and it stops and it looks around

and it scurryies some more. It doesn't

need to get exactly where it wants to go. It knows roughly where it wants to

go. It knows roughly where it wants to go and it clearly doesn't know how exactly it's going to get there, but it knows like where it's headed and then it course corrects. That's how I do it. So,

course corrects. That's how I do it. So,

at our company, we typically think about 6 weeks in advance. Um, and that's about it. There's some occasional projects,

it. There's some occasional projects, maybe a few over the 27 years that we've done that we needed to think further ahead. Um, like we just recently left

ahead. Um, like we just recently left the cloud, left AWS, and we're running our own stuff now in data centers. That

was like a much bigger project. Okay.

But most projects, 99% of them at our company take six weeks or less, and most of them take just much less than that.

But 6 weeks is the most we're willing to think ahead. And then day-to-day like I

think ahead. And then day-to-day like I the six weeks is like where the squirrel is headed. So it's not super clearly

is headed. So it's not super clearly defined. It's generally defined. And

defined. It's generally defined. And

then we figure it out as we go. We just

figure it out as we go on a day-to-day basis. Like the teams figure it out as

basis. Like the teams figure it out as they go. Like there I kind of set or

they go. Like there I kind of set or sound David or someone sets like the target generally. Not again not like

target generally. Not again not like financial targets but like generally we're headed in this direction with this idea. Figure out how to get there on

idea. Figure out how to get there on your own. We'll check in when we need

your own. We'll check in when we need to. You ask if you want some help. Happy

to. You ask if you want some help. Happy

to come in. I'll review stuff as we go.

But it's a bunch of course correction to get us there. And uh I find that that is the most honest real way to get somewhere good because

in general you know more about things the closer they are to you. So I don't know what's going to happen five Mondays from now. But well today's not today's

from now. But well today's not today's Thursday. So let's just take Friday.

Thursday. So let's just take Friday.

Five Fridays from now or tomorrow. I

probably have a better idea of what might happen tomorrow than I do five tomorrows or five Fridays from now. So,

I'll worry about those when I get there.

Let me worry about tomorrow. Let me nail tomorrow. Let me get tomorrow right.

tomorrow. Let me get tomorrow right.

Let's do the right stuff tomorrow. Let's

make the right decisions tomorrow and then we'll make some more on Monday and make some more on Tuesday and make some more on Wednesday. Like, just make small decisions all the time and don't put yourself in a place where you're making

huge ones you're afraid of and you can sort of get wherever you want to go for 27 plus years. There's a question that I keep getting asked by different people, so it must be a popular question. And

I'm always perplexed by it. They're

like, "What is you seem to have something good going right now? What

does success look like five years from now?"

now?" >> So I'm You hate the question. I'm going

to ask you I'm going to ask what your answer is, and I'm going to tell you what my answer to that question is.

>> I don't know. That's the answer. I don't

care.

>> So what?

>> So what?

>> What is five I don't even know. Five

years from now. Like what what what's the difference? It's like it's it's an

the difference? It's like it's it's an interesting question because it's a directional question, but I don't care.

I don't have an answer.

>> My answer is boring. Just more of this.

>> Yeah, sure.

>> I mean, that's essentially what it is until >> So, here's the thing about those questions. People answer those questions

questions. People answer those questions today for who they think they're going to be then.

>> You don't know who you're going to be then. So, like it's a kind of a silly

then. So, like it's a kind of a silly thing to answer I or even to ponder. So,

yeah, I'm with you. which is like this.

I >> this is the answer basically.

>> I've read all your books. I've listened

to almost all your episodes. We've

shared a bunch of meals together. Um and

I never even knew that you just did the day thing too because that's what I was like I just feel I was like I try to make a good 24 hours and then I was like, "Oh, I like this day. So like I'll do it again tomorrow." And I had this

line that I said uh by accident. I was

like, "Well, all a great life is is just a string of great days." So like all I focus on is just let me make a great day. And I told you last night where

day. And I told you last night where it's like the way I think about very similar to what you're doing or what I'm doing is like I'm just laying bricks and like today I'm making a podcast and tomorrow I'll make another one and a few days later I'll make another one and

then I'll let the score take care of itself because I just like doing this and I do it the way I want to do it and I want to make a great product. And so

my answer to that question is just like this like I just want to be making more podcasts. I know I'm going to be reading

podcasts. I know I'm going to be reading books forever. that that's the only

books forever. that that's the only unbroken habit I've ever had in my entire life over 30 something years. I

can't stop reading. So, I'm going to be reading books. So, that's my what my

reading books. So, that's my what my other podcast is about. And I like talking to smart, interesting people that do great [ __ ] >> And I don't think I'm ever going to stop doing that. So, that's what this is.

doing that. So, that's what this is.

>> Yeah. Great answer. And if one day you decide you don't want to do this anymore, >> then you just change.

>> That's where me and you start to separate a little bit.

>> I don't know. I said if >> there might be a time I'll jump off a cliff. I'd be very disappointed. That

cliff. I'd be very disappointed. That

would be the thing you start doing.

Don't have clips. I don't know. Well,

with parachutes hopefully. But I mean, >> uh, very I'd be very disappointed in myself.

>> You might find other interests in your life. Something Jeff Bezos told me,

life. Something Jeff Bezos told me, which which I've always kept close at heart because I've I've examined the things I've come into enjoying doing. He

says, "You don't find your passions, they find you." And I've always believed that. And I didn't I didn't know that,

that. And I didn't I didn't know that, but I've always believed it, but I didn't really know that I believed it.

Like then when he said I'm like, "Yeah, I have always felt that way because like I'm into things now that I wasn't into 10 years ago that I didn't know about 10 years ago." And so I'm hopeful for you

years ago." And so I'm hopeful for you that there's other things too even though you can do this too. But like who knows? Like I think there's there's

knows? Like I think there's there's another beauty in just being empty and open to the world and how it presents itself to you. And you might find that you love this and you love something else. And there might come a time where

else. And there might come a time where you don't like this anymore. And that's

okay. It's like okay. I I can tell you don't believe me and I still don't believe me.

>> Maybe we do this till 80, right?

Hopefully.

>> But but and I hope you do too because you're damn good at it, right? But like

who knows? And it's like it's okay. It's

okay. This is why like the whole idea of a fiveyear plan. It's like it's kind of a ridiculous thing. How about just get tomorrow right? Get tomorrow right. And

tomorrow right? Get tomorrow right. And

then and by the way, if tomorrow wasn't right, this this is the thing I think this gets back to like in some ways tying it back to the thinness. And you

want to find tiny units. Find small

units. So a day is a good small unit, right? A simple decision is a good small

right? A simple decision is a good small unit. And the good thing about that is

unit. And the good thing about that is if you screw up, it's not a big deal.

Like if if tomorrow sucks cuz whatever happened and okay, it's behind you in 24 hours. It's over. Like versus big huge

hours. It's over. Like versus big huge decisions where you take eight months to think about it and pull in all these people and set up all these contingencies and you make the big decision and it goes sour, it goes

south, whatever. Maybe it works out, but

south, whatever. Maybe it works out, but maybe it doesn't. And then it's like it's it's so hard to make those calls.

It's so hard to deal with the ramifications of those things if they don't work out. Like make things small, tiny little units that you can throw them away if they it doesn't matter.

It's like what you basically want then is enough good things, enough good units in a year, right? Not like one great year, one great plan, but enough good little things and because you know

you're going to miss a few things. So

who cares? Throw them away. It doesn't

matter. small units, bricks, build that way. And I think that you just you you

way. And I think that you just you you you're become like more anti fragile basically in that way, you know, when you're just like little things and they can't throw you off too much if you get something wrong and it's small. Now,

someone could say, well, you're going to miss big opportunities and yes, maybe.

So, so what? So what? Like, if I can stay alive doing the thing I'm doing and running the business I want to run, I don't need the other big opportunities.

like stop worrying about all the other things you can maybe do and just focus on the thing that you're doing and like make that work over and over and over and over as long as you want to do it.

Brad Jacobs has started eight separate billion-doll companies. He said, "I've

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>> Do you feel you have like a narrow aperture with the world? I feel like you're you're like >> I don't.

>> Okay.

>> Well, actually, what do you mean by that? First of all,

that? First of all, >> what you just said like why are you worried about all these other opportunities out there in the world?

like you just seem to be focused on like I'm building the business the way I want. It's a perfect business for

want. It's a perfect business for myself. You're kind of uh not oblivious.

myself. You're kind of uh not oblivious.

I don't mean this obviously in a destructive way by any means. Like yeah,

you just you don't really care what other people in the your industry are doing. You you have a like a narrow

doing. You you have a like a narrow focus on Yeah. I don't know if it's narrow or wide. It just is like I'm doing what I'm doing and it doesn't matter what they're doing.

>> How often are you like breaking like paying attention to how other people are making their products? very rarely. I

don't actually want to pay attention to it.

>> Why?

>> I think what ends up happening is, and you see this in in my world, you see it everywhere. Everyone follows everybody

everywhere. Everyone follows everybody else because when you're paying so much attention to what everyone else is doing, you tend to just that's the way you think it has to be done or can be done. You're not open to like

done. You're not open to like alternatives because you don't see them anywhere. And then you get a people

anywhere. And then you get a people people then build out of fear like gosh, they're doing this, they're launching this, I have to meet them. There has to be parody between my product and theirs.

Then you end up following everybody. I

don't like that. I like to take inspiration. If I'm going to take

inspiration. If I'm going to take inspiration from anything uh productwise, it's going to be outside my it's it's the Concept 2 rower. It's

not another piece of software. I'm not

inspired by their software. I like

buildings. I like furniture. I like uh concept 2. I like watches. I like other

concept 2. I like watches. I like other things outside of my world that I can sort of admire and and understand and sort of get fired up about. And I don't know if those things come back. I don't

think they need to come back. Like,

everyone's always like, "How does that come back and help you build your business?" Like, I don't know. I don't

business?" Like, I don't know. I don't

care. Why? Why does it have to? Why does

everything have to come back to business? Like, why does everything have

business? Like, why does everything have to influence your decisions? Like, these

are all things that just happen. They

exist in your world. They they happen to you and they and they form you and you're not even aware of most of it. and

and you just become like I think if you admire a variety of different things and pay attention to different things and enjoy a walk in the woods like a few days ago I was just it's like 4:45 you know California here the light is just beautiful at the end of the day I'm just

sitting outside looking at the way the sun is raking over the hills like I'd rather look at that than it's piece of software I'm learning more from that I'm getting

more from that than I am a competitor's product I don't want to look at that I want to look at the sun I want to look at the ocean I want look go for a walk.

I want to look at nature. I want to look at great furniture. I want to be in great architecture. Like that fills me

great architecture. Like that fills me up in a way. I'm getting enough of the software world by being in it. I don't

want to soak in it. I want to soak outside of it. And then my only soaking in the software world is my own stuff.

That's enough. It's enough for me to focus on.

>> Tell me about your idea of Galapicos Island product design.

>> I just like there's something really cool about islands that like have evolved on their own. I just like I don't know. I've never been to the

don't know. I've never been to the Golopagus. My wife's been. She asked me

Golopagus. My wife's been. She asked me if I wanted to go. I didn't want to go because I I it's too far, but I should have gone probably. But um actually, I didn't want to go, frankly, be there.

Part of that was it was too far. I also

felt like like let it Can we let it be?

Although I it's got to be I mean, she loved it and I'm so glad she went and the pictures are incredible and it seems like an amazing experience. But there's

something very cool about um things that have just evolved on their own that are not influenced by other things. And I

try to think of us as the Galopagus. I

don't think of us this way really, but like conceptually there's I don't like use the word the Galopagus island of the software and I don't use that, but I do think of us as um actually an insular group focused on solving a problem our

own way without paying too much attention to what everyone else is doing. I'm like aware of it because I

doing. I'm like aware of it because I live in it, but I I'm not seeking out ideas from other companies in our field.

I I think that that's actually a slippery slope. It is because we see so

slippery slope. It is because we see so much copying in our industry. Like

someone has a successful product and then all future products for the next three years look just like theirs.

That says to me that there's a there's danger here. Don't fall into that trap.

danger here. Don't fall into that trap.

Our stuff looks different than everybody else's stuff. Our stuff works

else's stuff. Our stuff works differently than everybody else's stuff.

Nothing works like base camp fizzy. It's

all different. And some people hate the way our stuff looks and works. Fine.

Don't care. We have enough people who love what we do. Um, and it's an expanding pie of people who are into what we do and we love what we do. And

again, that's like enough for us. Even

your landing pages look different.

They're essentially a letter from you describing Yeah.

>> what the product is and why it exists.

>> Yeah. I wouldn't like I I always try to build things that I would want to see.

Like I build the company I want to work at. Um I hire the people I want to work

at. Um I hire the people I want to work with. I try to write I do all of our

with. I try to write I do all of our writing. So all of our I don't do the

writing. So all of our I don't do the design on the I work with our designer to do a lot of that. But um he's sort of the visual uh person there. Um but I do

all the writing and I I want every word to land with meaning. This is again like thin thick. I don't like thick stuff,

thin thick. I don't like thick stuff, thin. Like, how can I just get to the

thin. Like, how can I just get to the right point, but not be sterile? It's a

problem sometimes when getting to the point you need to be sterile. So, like

there should be a little bit of bounce, a little bit of rhythm in the writing.

It should feel nice. Um, you should be carried through it. It there should be some momentum in there. And I just love doing it. That's my favorite thing to

doing it. That's my favorite thing to do. Actually, the company's right. We

do. Actually, the company's right. We

just do stuff that we like. I like that style. If you look at my product demos,

style. If you look at my product demos, I always do the demo for the product, like the launch. They're long and they're unedited and I screw up a bunch and I don't care. Like this is if I was sitting with you, what I want to try to

get to with this kind of stuff is if I'm showing you something my our product literally you're like behind me or sitting next to me and we're looking at this thing together. If I screw up two minutes in, I'm not going to go let's

start over. I'm just going to keep

start over. I'm just going to keep going. And so that's how I want these to

going. And so that's how I want these to feel. I want to like connect with people

feel. I want to like connect with people in a real way. This is like a real person showing off a real product. This

is a real person writing a real thing.

My name's on it, my signatures on it, my email's on it. Like, we are who we are.

We are, we represent ourselves as we are. We are not a corporate entity

are. We are not a corporate entity hiding behind a structure. We're not a CEO or we're a CTO hiding from our customers. We don't have a board. We're

customers. We don't have a board. We're

not like, we don't have any of these things. It's just us running the show.

things. It's just us running the show.

And the show is open for anyone to see.

And, you know, we open source most of our of our work. We're very open about sharing everything we know as best we possibly can. I just feel like there's

possibly can. I just feel like there's no reason not to. Um I I just I just want to be direct and clear with people and like hopefully they like that and some people don't. Some people like, "Oh, you guys are too small. I can't

trust you." Like I'm not out to convince anybody of anything. Like that's the other thing. Like I I don't want to

other thing. Like I I don't want to convince anyone. I don't like marketing

convince anyone. I don't like marketing language. I don't like tricks.

language. I don't like tricks.

Here we are. Here's what we do. Here's

what our product does. Like that's the best we can do and that's the best I want to do. And I think it's the honest way to be and and take it or leave it.

Like some people don't like it. That's

totally fine. I get it.

>> I love the idea of doubling down on authenticity and leaving the mistakes in. I remember reading one of your

in. I remember reading one of your essays a long time ago. It was I can't remember the culture, but they would do >> rugs. Okay, I'll tell you the story. I

>> rugs. Okay, I'll tell you the story. I

was in Wisconsin um in this little town called Mineral Point, Wisconsin. Small

little town about 50 mi west of Madison.

And I was wandering through this gallery. Strange like it it was this

gallery. Strange like it it was this weird building. It looked like a like a

weird building. It looked like a like a junkyard inside. Like you peered in,

junkyard inside. Like you peered in, it's like what is going on in here?

something in and I saw some like old man on the back. Like there's going to be something cool here. So I knock on his door. I walk in. There's some rugs

door. I walk in. There's some rugs hanging, but there's also like junk everywhere. Anyway, he comes out and

everywhere. Anyway, he comes out and you're like, "Okay, this guy's a character. I love characters. I love old

character. I love characters. I love old people. There's something going on

people. There's something going on there, right?" I'm like, "Who is this

there, right?" I'm like, "Who is this guy?" So he's he's a Nav He collects Nav

guy?" So he's he's a Nav He collects Nav he's dead now, but he collects Navajo rugs. Um so anyone can't go there today

rugs. Um so anyone can't go there today is what I'm saying. But he collects Navajo rugs. And I was looking and I I

Navajo rugs. And I was looking and I I find them very beautiful. They're very

simply patterned and the colors are very vibrant and they're very interesting and there's just I don't know what it was that they spoke to me, right? Um, and I don't want to analyze why either because I I I find that that's a great way to

ruin any experience is to try to figure out why. Just does it or does it not? It

out why. Just does it or does it not? It

does. I love these things for whatever reason. So, I go in talking to the guy

reason. So, I go in talking to the guy and I noticed that they have a lot of errors on them. Like there's what I thought was an error. Like there's

geometric shapes. So, their their rugs are very geometric. they're they're

stripes, they're squares, they're triangles, they're all sorts of different shapes. Um, and a lot of them

different shapes. Um, and a lot of them like weren't quite right. You know, you can like look at a shape and go, it's not they're trying to make a perfect triangle, but it's like not quite right.

And I and I asked him about that or there's a stitch that's off, very clearly off. I'm like, they could have

clearly off. I'm like, they could have just taken that out and redone it. And

he said to me, he said, you know, and again, I don't know if this is true, but this is what he told me. Um, which is the Navajo, like they don't see those as mistakes. They're just like a moment in

mistakes. They're just like a moment in time. And he he related it this way.

time. And he he related it this way.

He's like, if you're walking on a path, if you're climbing a mountain or something and you're going on a path and you trip or you stumble or whatever,

like you don't start back. You can't

take that stumble back. It just

happened. The Navajo leave these in their rugs because they just happened.

And this is a record of what happened. I

love that. I just thought it was like so lovely and I've tried to do that with the things that I do. I mean I I don't like want to leave typos and stuff like

that's not quite the same thing but like if I make a mistake on a video or something or whatever like I whatever that's what you would do in the real world. So I'm comfortable with that.

world. So I'm comfortable with that.

I've always found that to be very um just again a very beautiful thing that that like these are not mistakes.

Mistakes are a concept we put on ourselves when we do something that wasn't what we intended.

Why does that have so much weight? Maybe

what we intended was wrong, too. I don't

know. Does are these rugs worse because there's a stitch off? No, they're not worse. They're better. And that's kind

worse. They're better. And that's kind of what I'm striving for with this stuff is not to take things so damn seriously and build a company that's afraid of itself and afraid to do anything wrong and afraid to have an opinion. You know,

all these companies, not that's a very broad statement. And all these

broad statement. And all these companies, you know, like everyone's afraid. Companies are afraid like they

afraid. Companies are afraid like they have PR people and they got to talk to lawyers before they publish anything.

Everyone's afraid of everything of of of of saying something wrong, doing something wrong, being wrong in some way that is not endearing. I think people want to do business with people and they

have to do business with companies because companies provide a lot of product. But I think they really want to

product. But I think they really want to do business with people. And maybe this is why I like the the dry cleaner. Maybe

this is why I like the grocery store.

Maybe this is why I like running my business my way. I feel like people are dealing with people. We don't have a big corporate structure. We're just 62

corporate structure. We're just 62 people currently doing the things that we're doing. We're all accessible, all

we're doing. We're all accessible, all reachable. No one's hiding from anybody.

reachable. No one's hiding from anybody.

This is what we do. And I just find that to be there's there's a again a thinness, a directness to that which just has an aesthetic value to me that I can't quite explain. Um it's like the

quality that cannot be explained. I

think it might have been Christopher Alexander or something who was an architect uh who who talked about this.

I might be totally off on this, but I think conceptually the idea was you can go see buildings in in like in in native villages and there's no architect that made any of this stuff. They didn't have

any architects. They had people making

any architects. They had people making places for them to live and work and worship. And there's a certain quality

worship. And there's a certain quality to that which is not um textbook highquality but is beyond high quality

because it's a perfect fit for what they wanted for themselves.

That's the kind of stuff I like to build.

>> It's kind of how you're designing your company.

>> Yeah. Perfect fit for us for what we want and what we need. And again getting back to the original thing like how many other people are there out there like us? Enough.

us? Enough.

That's the business model.

>> This exactly how I started um doing the podcast. I think I'm drawn to that too.

podcast. I think I'm drawn to that too.

Like the the I think in people, not companies, right?

And this is why I was drawn to podcasts to begin with because you it's impossible. Some of these p these

impossible. Some of these p these podcasters that I was fans of before I had a podcast. I've heard them speak for hundreds of hours. Like you can't hide who you are at that point. You're going

to like the good. You're going to hear the mistakes. And I use the word

the mistakes. And I use the word endearing. And that's exactly how I feel

endearing. And that's exactly how I feel for like some of the people that I admire. There like something about them

admire. There like something about them that is endearing. In fact, a friend of mine just text me this morning. Uh my

friend Lulu, she was listening to one of my old podcasts on like Napoleon's maxims on Founders like episode 337 if I remember correctly.

>> And she was like thought it was hilarious that I didn't edit out the fact that I was mispronouncing all these French names. And I'm just like I don't

French names. And I'm just like I don't know. I'm like reading from the book.

know. I'm like reading from the book.

I'm like I don't know what this is. I

don't speak French. Like so I'm just going to I'm going to do this phonetically. But it was endearing to

phonetically. But it was endearing to her that I didn't like, you know, look up how like act like I speak French or anything else. Like this is I read books

anything else. Like this is I read books and I'm just guessing at how this is pronounced.

>> You're not putting on errors. Like the

like I guess like I admire anyone who is truly themselves and that's what that was for you. You're like I could have probably faked the accent, you know, like you watch TV news and it's like the

guy like uses the Hispanic accent for like some, you know, Spanish word and you're like that's weird. like you're

trying too hard. Like just like you don't need to like if you don't speak Spanish, you don't need to fake the accent to try to speak Spanish is what I was trying to get at.

>> Um and and it's like but you see it all the time. It's like just I don't know

the time. It's like just I don't know what I don't know how to pronounce French words either. Like I'm not even going to try. I'll just say what I say and read it phonetically and like you could even say like I would even go like I don't know I don't know how to say this.

>> I do say like I don't know what this is.

You're you're going to laugh at me but this is what I what and then you move on and no one gives a damn because you're you and that's not the point of the story. The point of the story is not

story. The point of the story is not perfect French pronunciation like with seven words out of 5,000. It's like what is the story and who's telling it and why are you telling it? That's what

matters. Figuring out the stuff that actually matters is what's important about that process. And I think again running a business and making decisions about product, it's like what matters,

what doesn't matter. That's fun. Going

back to you writing these letters for the landing page.

>> Yeah. Do you do it like Bezos where they write it before the product is created or you're doing it after the fact in the middle usually? So, uh, like with Hey, I

middle usually? So, uh, like with Hey, I wrote one with for Hey, which is our email service and we before we launched before the product was even anywhere near done. I wrote the letter.

near done. I wrote the letter.

>> I need to interrupt you. I was a fan of your writing. The first time we met, I

your writing. The first time we met, I showed you the Amazon. I was like, listen, I have receipts here. I've been

reading your stuff for 13, 15 years. I

bought hay just because I wanted to give you money because I would I'd buy your books, but I I didn't have a team and base camp's project management and like I'm working by myself.

>> Yeah.

>> And so I couldn't ever give you money.

And then you built up so much goodwill by teaching me so much through your writing that I was like, "Oh, I use email. I'm going to buy that product."

email. I'm going to buy that product."

So I'm a proud subscriber of Hey, just because I was like, I got to give this I got to pay you back somehow.

>> Thank you. I do that with other products too where I'm I'm not going to use them but I just love the people behind them and you want to support them.

>> It happens so much >> and it's it's a cool it's a cool way.

>> This goes back to we we identify with people not companies.

>> Yes. And it's a cool way to purchase something like sometimes like the use is the support not the actual use of the product. But anyway during the

product. But anyway during the development of hey we we launched this this pre-launch page like months before Hey was done. And so I wrote this letter about like why email is a beautiful

thing and for the longest time people have hated email because they they despise it because the email ser email has gone off the rails and like we can bring it back on. Do you remember when you used to get an email from someone you loved or like if you're a

grandparent or like an old friend like it's a wonderful thing to get an email from someone who you care about. The

problem is is that most emails now are like spam and sales and garbage and like meetings and [ __ ] I just got to this.

Anyway, we can get into that. But but

but the point was to your to your question was like I wrote that in the middle. I didn't know what the product

middle. I didn't know what the product was going to be yet. We're going one day at a time. I didn't know why >> behind the product. How would you describe >> it was the love behind the product.

>> Love.

>> Yes. Say more about that.

>> Well, I I don't want to get like silly about it because it's not You don't really You can't really love I know, but like it's a different version of love.

>> No, no. I love like podcasts, so I know exactly what you're talking about. No, I

love them. Yes. And the way and when I make one and I listen to it before anybody else does and I'm like I'm happy with this. That is love.

with this. That is love.

>> Yes. That

>> you're not silly. It's not silly.

>> No, I don't mean Yeah, I know. I know.

But like Okay. So, there's a certain warmth and tone that comes through when you make something you're really proud of. In

that way, we got to proud about running the business for 27 years. I'm really

proud of the products we make. The

business again is like the envelope. I'm

not proud of the envelope. part of the things that sustain the business, which are the products.

And and and I just I love getting them as right as I possibly can. And there is a warmth that comes to you when you're really proud to share something that you're done with that you finished that

you want to put out there in the world.

And it could be a letter, it could be a line, it could be the right word in the right place, it could be an entire product. And it can also be a company in

product. And it can also be a company in a sense. Um but there is there is love

a sense. Um but there is there is love reserved for that for sure. So, this is a love for the decentraliz I I think I read I remember reading this. You were

talking about like if the the actual creation of email is actually a miracle.

We've just kind of [ __ ] that up.

>> Yeah.

>> It's amazing that anybody in the world had can can get in touch with anybody else. There's no like platforms like

else. There's no like platforms like everything else is a platform. You want

to write someone on WhatsApp? Well, they

have to have WhatsApp signal. They have

to have signal whatever, right? Email,

beautiful thing. Incred. It's like as beautiful as the web. The web is beautiful because anyone in the world with a web browser made by any company can use HTTP and like connect to some other some other website. Same thing is

true with with basic email. These are

wonders of the world. And how did they become so despised? I I blame Apple. I

blame Google. I blame Yahoo. I blame

Microsoft for making [ __ ] email products that they just don't care about. Now

they've started to care more about them, but they didn't care about them for a long time. And everybody knows that

long time. And everybody knows that nobody cared. And so we we care. I I

nobody cared. And so we we care. I I

live in email sometimes. I don't we don't use email inside our company. We

use base camp. But for the outside world, we use email. And I want to use tools I love. Like I want to use tools that matter to me. And if I'm going to spend most of my day in base camp, I want to make Base Camp. if I can spend

the other part of my day in hey an email I want to make an email tool that I'm proud of that I want to use that I have a certain love for and that's what that is and that letter it was a love letter

in fact it ended if I remember correctly like this is a love letter hey is our love letter to email and I I meant it >> yeah it's a great thing it's amazing thing you just used the word tool a few

times do you um identify with Toby Luke just like I'm just a tomaker I'm just a yeah I'm a tool maker >> I make too make tools >> that's how you think about Yeah, I don't I I'm in the So people like what do you

do? I'm like I I go I'm in the software

do? I'm like I I go I'm in the software business so they understand what I do, but I don't like that term. I also don't like I'm in the tech industry. I'm not

I'm not tech I'm not a tech person. Like

I don't like that. I make tools. They

just happen to be made of software.

That's all I know how to do. I don't

know how to make things out of wood, but I know how to make things out of software and code and design and conceptual ideas. And so yeah, I make

conceptual ideas. And so yeah, I make tools. We make tools. We make levers.

tools. We make tools. We make levers.

It's just a lever. It's a lever that lets you do more with it than you could without it. That's all it is. You can

without it. That's all it is. You can

move more things. You can organize more people. You can come up with better

people. You can come up with better ideas. You can see those ideas through.

ideas. You can see those ideas through.

You can make progress with the products that we make. That's what a tool is for, to make progress.

>> I'm fascinated by a lot of your time spent out of the business and a lot of the inspiration that you derive in life seem to be from physical things. You

just named a bunch.

of watches, cars, the concept, you know, maybe you're not podcasting in the future. What I know for sure is if I

the future. What I know for sure is if I ever do anything else, it's going to be physical because the same phenomenon where like >> I barely look at numbers. I know you barely look numbers, but it's just numbers on a screen and those numbers are happen to be big, but like you can't

you don't understand that. He doesn't

feel it. I remember there was a um Mark Leonard of Constellation Software did this podcast. He talked about one of his

this podcast. He talked about one of his most fulfilling jobs he ever had was not you know starting and compounding you know whatever it was 50 million to 80 billion or whatever he's done with pure

software >> it was he was building stone walls >> and even to this day he said he could go I think it was like a kid or a young man maybe was in his 20s 30s back then but

you can go to where the stone wall that he worked on 30 years ago and he's like point at he's like I did that I made that >> why do you draw so much inspiration from physical Thanks.

I'll take some guesses cuz I don't know.

Just like I don't know why I like certain flavors. I just do, right? You

certain flavors. I just do, right? You

can't really explain these things. But

if I had to guess, again, it comes back to there's something real about them.

Um, I like being able to hold things, touch things. I like texture. Something

touch things. I like texture. Something

you'll see in a lot of our software products is actually texture, which is it's not real, it's simulated, but a lot of software these days is very flat. I I

like gradients and colors and lines and some texture. I just find it to be very

some texture. I just find it to be very fulfilling and real to like rub your finger over something and feel it. I

like patina. I like age on things.

Software doesn't age. I mean, it does age. It can look old or whatever, but

age. It can look old or whatever, but like the software looks the same over time. A great building, a great a great

time. A great building, a great a great brick, to get back to bricks. Bricks are

beautiful because they look even better as they get older. um they collect age on them, they get stronger, they're just they build into other

things. I just there's something about

things. I just there's something about the physical world to me that is just um we're from it, okay? Like we are it. We

are part of it. Like there's something so fundamental about it that I try never to get too far away from it. Um I would much rather lay on the ground than like

fly in the air, you know? I just want to be closer to things that are real. Um,

now flying in the air is real, too, of course, but you know what I'm saying.

Like, I'd rather walk somewhere. I'd

rather drive. I' I'd like to be closer to the ground. I've begun to collect like rocks that I think are cool looking.

>> Oh, now you move to Malibu.

>> Are these Are these rocks crystals?

>> They're not crystals. I was going to save that in case you ask me. They're

not crystals. I'll just find something at the beach or I'll find something interesting with a cool pattern in it and I just like I just like it. I don't

know. I love nature. I love all the textures and patterns and colors. Like

for example, you know, when you're coming up as a designer in the early days when I was designing like identities like logos and stuff, you kind of would go you'd go through these like logo books or like corporate

identity books. Um I think there was an

identity books. Um I think there was an organization called um I want to call it brand but maybe I'm wrong. print

actually was this magazine that had all these pictures of business cards and stuff and every designer I know would look through other business cards for inspiration for like color patterns and

pallets and layouts and like I I'm like go outside like the best designs ever are right there. That leaf is the best it's ever been. Obviously, it's like

survived and evolved. This is a great thing. And so I like if you want to find

thing. And so I like if you want to find great colors, look at a bird. Don't look

at a book. Like, look look look look at a leaf, right? Look at the ocean. Look

look look look look go to a tide pool and just look at the colors in that tide pool. Look at the way the light

pool. Look at the way the light reflects. Like that's the real stuff.

reflects. Like that's the real stuff.

And what for I have goosebumps like for me whatever it is whenever I talk about this like it's just fundamentally real to me and I just love it. And like I

love the screen too. I love making software too, but probably because I'm in that a lot. I really like not being in that too.

>> I don't think you love the screen. You

said if you sell your business >> right now, I do.

>> If I All right, we never get that. Let's

get this.

>> Yes. You said if you sold your business, you're never going to use a computer again.

>> Well, I said I would never start another business again. What I would like to do

business again. What I would like to do is I'd like to shut my laptop. I'd like

to turn off I I Yeah. Okay.

I don't need a screen to survive my days. I'd like to close my laptop for a

days. I'd like to close my laptop for a year and just not use I'll use my phone because like I get in touch with people, right? But I don't want to like compute.

right? But I don't want to like compute.

I I don't I don't need to compute.

Let me just close it and and walk away.

I have again like this isn't one of the computers are some of the most probably the most amazing tool humans have ever made. So, like I I I don't despise them,

made. So, like I I I don't despise them, hate them, but I could take some time away from them. But I think time away from nature would bug me a whole lot more. If I couldn't go outside for a

more. If I couldn't go outside for a year, it'd bug me way more. You go

insane.

>> I Yes. Jump off the cliff.

>> I think people have gone insane. They

have for sure.

>> Right. Exactly. So, like, you know, I I want to be out. I want to be out there.

I think it's just a wonderful So, so the screen is wonderful. Software is

wonderful. Computers are incredible things. And that right now is like an

things. And that right now is like an amazing time for computers. Like one of the most amazing times since the web back in the late '9s or mid '90s really.

Um and and it's cool to live through both of these moments. Um but I'd still rather um play with some bricks and and work on a stone wall even though I don't

know how. Um like but that wouldn't pay

know how. Um like but that wouldn't pay my bills either. So I have to be practical. Like I built a great software

practical. Like I built a great software company. I like this stuff a lot. I

company. I like this stuff a lot. I

don't know how to build stone walls, but I wouldn't mind playing with them. The

bills are taken care of.

>> The bills are, but I still I don't think you have to worry about that anymore.

>> I don't And I don't do it for that reason. I know you. But but um Yeah. I

reason. I know you. But but um Yeah. I

mean, I still like I my point is had I built stone walls for 27 years, I'm not sure where I would be, you know.

>> No, the bills be very sore. The bills.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> One of the people I most hope to get on the show and I want to talk to is Christopher Nolan.

>> Have you ever like looked into his personal philosophy at all?

>> No. I just like his movies.

>> Okay. So there's something that me, you and him, I think, have in common. He,

you know, he desires to live in an analog world. I'm almost positive that's

analog world. I'm almost positive that's a direct quote. It might be me summarizing reading his biography.

>> And so if you think about the the justosition between like you make software, but you want to be on a hike outside, you know, you want to like look at the ocean, right?

>> He makes some of the most technologically advanced films that have ever been created. And yet he doesn't have a cell phone. Like you can't get in touch with him. You have to like email his assistant. He has to track him down.

his assistant. He has to track him down.

He will purposely put himself into like uh difficult positions. So like he'll drop into a new city.

>> He doesn't no he doesn't have a smartphone. So no GPS. He's got to go up

smartphone. So no GPS. He's got to go up to somebody like how do I get to the deli or whatever.

>> If he wants you to be in his movie.

>> Yeah.

>> Like oh email me the script.

>> He's not emailing you the script. Okay.

He is printing it out physically.

>> Yes.

>> Flying to you. Yeah.

>> So I'm Christopher Christopher Nolan and I want you Jason on my uh in my movie.

I'm showing up at your door. Yeah.

here's the script and you're like great I'll read it and I'm sitting here >> till you're done reading it and then when you're done >> take it back it back >> amazing >> and and I feel that exact same way where

it's like you know my your entire product is delivered you know digitally mine is too but I like to read physical books I like to be in person I will not

do a remote podcast I now I've got to the point where I won't even go on other people's podcast remote like no no like let's go meet and like hang out I want to talk on the phone. If I can't be with you in person, I don't want to text you.

I want to live in an analog world. I

just feel better >> being outside, reading physical books, not looking at a goddamn screen.

>> I'm with you. And

>> what's important about that is not actually this going to not any whatever you said doesn't matter. Actually, it's that you

doesn't matter. Actually, it's that you know who you are. That's what matters.

That you know that you like that that you've you figured out that you like that. It's good to figure out what you

that. It's good to figure out what you like eventually. Like a lot of people

like eventually. Like a lot of people don't know what they like. They like

what other people like. They like what they're supposed to like. Um they live up to other people's expectations. They

kind of run someone else's business in a sense. Not like an executive running

sense. Not like an executive running their business, but people grow businesses that they think they have to grow because that's what you do. Um they

make decisions they think other people would make. Like they don't even have a

would make. Like they don't even have a sense of who they are and what they're all about yet. And I hope all of all of them find it because it's a wonderful thing when you know what you're into.

And also that, you know, maybe that might change too, but you know, right now you're into that. The other thing is like you don't need to pick sides. Like

you can love digital and you can love physical. It doesn't it they're not

physical. It doesn't it they're not they're all the same thing. We live on this like speck of dust, you know, in space. Like it's it's all the same

space. Like it's it's all the same thing, right? Um so it it doesn't like

thing, right? Um so it it doesn't like really any of it matter like what you like and why you like it. Just that you do and that you know that you do. You

don't even need to know know why that you do but that you do and you respect and and and treat yourself to those things that you find beautiful. All of

the founders and extreme winners that I have studied have this one trait in common. They have excessively high

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>> So you told a story earlier when you're making products here like in high school and you're designing it just for you.

You're the first user. That is an indication that you're comfortable trusting your own judgment. You just

said it's really important to know who you are. At what age do you really think

you are. At what age do you really think that you finally figured out who you are?

>> I think probably more recently, frankly uh than than I I don't think I I think I knew what I liked like to do, but I

don't think I I'm not sure I still know fully who I am, but I um that's the big question, right? Like who are we and the

question, right? Like who are we and the whole thing, right? I don't I don't totally feel like I should no one should be certain about that. But I feel like I've come more to my own actually since getting married and having kids. Looking

back on who I maybe how I was, how I acted, how I was in the world. Um I'm

glad I am who I am now than who who I wouldn't want to be that person again.

>> Why didn't you say you used to have like anger?

>> I think I was Yeah, I was I was definitely like more of a punk, you know, like a young >> I don't know. I think I probably resented things for some reason. I was

sort of I had a chip on my shoulder.

Maybe that's part Maybe that was good.

Like you got to prove yourself when you're getting when you're new into something and you're young and you're breaking in and people don't think you're any good at what you do. I the

only time I'm ever competitive is is when someone slight me otherwise I I don't I I'm not competitive. So for whatever reason like

competitive. So for whatever reason like if someone's like you can't do that or you guys aren't good enough or I remember this actually early on in my career when I was a web designer before I made software I just designed

websites. Um, I submitted uh a website

websites. Um, I submitted uh a website design to an award thing and I'm trying to remember what it might have been called the high- five award or something. I can't quite remember what

something. I can't quite remember what it was and I can't remember the guy's name right now. Dave Seagull actually was his name. I do remember now.

Back in the day getting an award from Dave Seagull, I think was his name, was like a big deal in the design community.

So, I submitted a design and um he wrote me back saying like, "You suck.

Literally, you suck. Um, find another day job." And I loved that.

day job." And I loved that.

I loved that. That was like I loved that. I love when someone says you can't

that. I love when someone says you can't do something, you're not good at something. You know, maybe this come

something. You know, maybe this come comes from being like, "I'm 5'7 and I'm pretty good at basketball." And you walk on the court and people don't think you're very good, you know? Like, I love that kind of stuff, right? So, so that

just fired me up. So, as far as like finding confidence, like I think I probably had a lot of that early on where people are like, "You're just one guy. Like, how could you do this or how

guy. Like, how could you do this or how could you do that or you don't know what you're doing? You don't have a degree in

you're doing? You don't have a degree in this." Like, that kind of fired me up

this." Like, that kind of fired me up for a while. But there's a point where you want, this is like again to the point of like kind of like you want to sort of launch and then you want to find a find a place to settle where you you

kind of just I think come into your own at a certain point. And um I think I probably did that in my 40s. I'm 51 now.

So I think like in my 40s I probably came into my own actually settled into my own. Had some um psychedelic

my own. Had some um psychedelic experiences which helped as well.

>> Did you?

>> Yeah.

>> John Mackey. I don't know if it it was in the episode. I can't remember. But

this guy keeps trying to get me to do psychedelics. I think we talked about at

psychedelics. I think we talked about at the end I was like I'm not doing psychedelics. What did you do?

psychedelics. What did you do?

>> Why not?

>> I Let's turn this interview around.

>> Let's go. It's a conversation. You can

do whatever you want. Um I don't I I think me and you both um bond over like there's some positive things obviously the tech industry and the Bay Area in San Francisco have created you know

great companies and great products and stuff but there's also a lot of like >> just wacko [ __ ] and a lot of them like there's just too much drug use in my opinion. I don't do drugs and I like the

opinion. I don't do drugs and I like the way my mind is and I don't want it to change. And

change. And >> um yeah, and I just I'm very resistant to doing drugs because I've also had like >> my cousin died of a heroin overdose. My

dad went to my dad did drugs his whole life. He went to jail for selling drugs.

life. He went to jail for selling drugs.

Like >> I've never seen somebody, you know, high on cocaine make a great decision like that. So it's like, you know, we we are

that. So it's like, you know, we we are we carry all the stuff that we we experienced earlier. And I'm like, well,

experienced earlier. And I'm like, well, what's the opposite of that? The

opposite of that is not doing drugs. So,

I'll just not do drugs.

>> I'm not here to convince you to do drugs.

>> No, no, go for it.

>> I just For me, the experience was very okay. As I think I mentioned earlier, my

okay. As I think I mentioned earlier, my favorite thing in life is to have an insight. And so, psychedelics for me

insight. And so, psychedelics for me were an avalanche of insights. And that was fascinating to know that like my mind

could see things and understand things in ways I didn't know were possible. I

could see like this doesn't make any s will not make any sense but maybe people who've done this will understand like you think of an idea and like I never thought an idea was like a

three-dimensional object that I could turn around and see from the other side.

Not like a different perspective on an idea, but literally I could turn it around and see what was behind it.

Things like that like that fascinated me. Having insights about the nature of

me. Having insights about the nature of existence and all this other stuff was fascinating too. just having I remember

fascinating too. just having I remember the the I' I've done this a few times.

Um and and the experiences are always wow like wow like while I'm doing it like wow that I never thought about it that way or I've never seen it. So, for

me, like it's just it's candy. And this

sounds like maybe candy and drugs. I

don't want to mix them, but like there's a sweetness to having an insight that you never had before about something that you think you knew that

psychedelics have have shown me. Um, but I don't I've done this three times. How does it

help you know yourself better?

>> Well, that's not why I did it. Okay. I

don't think I know myself better, but I I feel more expansive now that that there's more than I thought I knew.

Like, um, here's how I kind of thought about it afterwards. Um,

you have to picture an old car radio from maybe like the 50s or something, you know, like an old pickup truck had a car radio with a needle and you could move, you know, move the dial and the needle moves, right? Get the little glass window with all the channels and

you're you're in one of the channels.

That's where you are all the time.

You're in this channel. 95.7 is is is you. And psychedelics like let me turn

you. And psychedelics like let me turn the knob a little bit and tune into something else that's always been there.

But I couldn't I couldn't hear that frequency.

Like it's amazing. Then you're like I if you look at a radio and you turn the knob, you're picking up things that are there that you can't hear until you turn the knob. That's what it was like for

the knob. That's what it was like for me. and how does it make me a better

me. and how does it make me a better whatever or know myself better? I I

think all experiences help you know yourself better. So, it's just a mirror

yourself better. So, it's just a mirror and a reflection and a and a detail and a and a and a and a crumb that creates the pile of you. I don't really know.

It's not like that was a huge breakthrough for me, but it was fascinating enough to do it a few more times and learn a few more things that were just fascinating. Um, like one thing I'll just share, it's a little bit

of an aside, but again comes back to this object thing. And maybe this is like maybe this is me seeing how my mind works that way because we talked about objects before, but I remember having this experience where I was just like

puzzling through this like three-dimensional puzzle and being stumped by it, but but enjoying the problem solving. And then I

finally like just again this is like conceptual and metaphorical and not like so literal but I I turned it around and saw it from the back and it was dead

simple.

And it what what it basically told me was um turn everything around. This is

like invert. Everything's a lot simpler from behind. Everything's real. The back

from behind. Everything's real. The back

of things are real. The front of things are fronts. The back of things are real.

are fronts. The back of things are real.

So what does that mean?

How do I apply that? Like I don't try to apply that. This is like not trying.

apply that. This is like not trying.

It's just an an insight and a revelation that like get behind something to really know what it is. Again, I don't like constantly refer to this, but it's it's something that now I have that I didn't

have before and I'm very glad I have it.

So that's like part of that. It's it's

like it's just seeing through a different lens and like I'd rather have a few more lenses available to me if I can that are like harmless. This is not heroin, cocaine, and that kind of stuff.

But again, I'm not here to sell any of these things, and I'm not a doctor and all all the disclaimers, right? Um, but

I would say it's a it was a very worthwhile experience for me.

>> Did you read Rick Rubin's book, The Creative Act?

>> Yes.

>> Do you think you're you think about things similarly to him?

>> Yeah. When I read that book, I was like, did I write this book? Not

like really, you wrote the book, but but but you know what I mean? Like

>> I just I just read it, just an episode on it. And when I hear you speak, I'm

on it. And when I hear you speak, I'm like, you he's he's just like, we live in a magic world. A lot of stuff's not you have a you have an intelligence that is not coming from your brain.

>> Uh the world is beyond your comprehension. You have to be

comprehension. You have to be comfortable with, you know, ambiguity and not knowing. And I just feel I hear that from you constantly.

>> There's like dowoism in that which is like not knowing, not trying, not doing.

Like there's just there's things the world just works somehow in some magical way that we don't fully know. Um, and

this isn't about getting metaphysical.

Actually, I actually want to kind of bring it back, but like the I do think that there's this is part of the day like make it up as you go philosophy of business, >> which is just kind of going a bit more with the flow of where things go. This

is the squirrel. Like

>> there's something very honest and real about that that works to me. And so it's it's similar to what he's talking about, which is like things just happen. Um,

you don't need to know exactly why all the time like but feel into them and understand them and pay attention to them and and um and and trust them and trust your intuition and your gut. Like

I am a fully intuition and dr and gutdriven dr gut- driven entrepreneur and I don't even I don't even love that word entrepreneur. Um

word entrepreneur. Um I make products there has to be a business around it. I run the business but I'm gut and intuition driven. I

don't look at numbers. I don't care about the numbers as long as we're profitable and I know there's enough blubber in the business as we've talked a little bit about to to make no one's gonna get that. You you have to talk

about the blubber and then I want to get back to intuition and then I get back to Rick Rubman.

>> Yeah, sure.

>> You mentioned this point like >> your business should have some blubber >> and it's very memorable. What does that mean to you?

>> Um and I had not said that before until last night. the word blubber just came

last night. the word blubber just came to me which is just like I don't want to run a very tight margin business where I can't make mistakes or

I'm afraid of them. So I I I believe in in in in cushy margins so so we can screw up and it won't matter that much. I mean it can matter obviously. Again I'm not oblivious to

obviously. Again I'm not oblivious to the reality like businesses can go out of business. They do all the time. All

of business. They do all the time. All

of them do eventually basically at some point. We take risks. we don't put

point. We take risks. we don't put ourselves at risk is kind of how I like to think about this. So, I'm willing to take plenty of risks, but I'm not going to do something that's going to bet the farm unless we like had to. And if I'm at the point where I have to, I feel

like it's over already anyway. Frankly,

I'm not interested in betting the farm.

It's just not even that fun. Um, I'd

rather just have the farm and then not have the farm.

>> So, big margin of safety is the way of safety. A lot of cash, high profit

safety. A lot of cash, high profit margins. You still pay attention to your

margins. You still pay attention to your costs.

>> Yeah, we pay attention to costs.

Like when we talk about cutting cost like we we just David wrote this great article about like getting off the cloud is going to save us something like 10 million bucks and whatever it is. Uh and

and it's like >> a lot of people like why are you putting in all this effort to save 10 million bucks? It's because it's our money man.

bucks? It's because it's our money man.

We don't have outside funding. I don't

want any outside funding. We everyone's

wanted wanted to give us money over the years. I don't want anyone's money. It's

years. I don't want anyone's money. It's

our money. We make money through our customers through revenue. So we we take very good care of that money and we're careful with it and we we watch our cost. Again, if you want to stay in

cost. Again, if you want to stay in business, you're only competitionary cost, which hopefully you want to stay in business. So, these are the things

in business. So, these are the things that that I'm paying attention to. And

so, I want to have margin. That's why we keep the company small. Um, we don't spend money on marketing. We don't we've spent money some money on marketing over the years, but like it's been a rounding

error over 27 years. Um, we don't waste money on stupid things. We just we don't blow it on things. We just like save it, keep it, and allow ourselves to make more mistakes elsewhere.

uh that we sort of enjoy trying and making and and so I I I would not want to run a grocery store. Uh I don't want to run a 2% or 1% margin business. And

what's always blown me away is how many companies in Silicon Valley who are in the software business lose gobs and gobs of money. It's it's like the most

of money. It's it's like the most unbelievable thing for an industry like Silicon Valley to lose so much money on the highest margin product in history,

software, with no costs, nothing. Like

there's nothing to software. It's bits.

There's like some data costs, but let's call it basically zero all things considered. And there's still companies

considered. And there's still companies that are blowing billions. I've never made a penny.

billions. I've never made a penny.

They're like big companies that you know of just blowing money. It just blows my mind. I just it seems so incredibly

mind. I just it seems so incredibly irresponsible to me. But that's just me coming from a small business entrepreneur mindset, I suppose. But

like I just don't get that world.

>> So the blubber, if we're going to blubber, let's go back to the blubber.

>> The blubber helps you stay in business.

Yeah, it's it's it's fat reserves. Like

you should you have those. Like it's

cool to have 6% body fat, but like it's not a good thing to live that way for a long period of time. You need to have some if you're stuck out in the wilderness for a while, you you need to burn something, right? So

>> so so you know, we've lived through, you know, dot crash, 2008 stuff, co like >> we've we've we've we have we have fat on the bone. I think it's very important to

the bone. I think it's very important to have that and not just be at the bone.

The other thing is is that because we're an LLC, at the end of the year, whatever money is left over goes to the the members, the unit holders, which are me, David, and then we have two other people

on the cap table. And then also 10% of our profits go to our employees every year. Um, and it's based on seniority,

year. Um, and it's based on seniority, uh, or actually that's the wrong it's based on longevity, not seniority. It's

kind the two aren't aren't the same thing.

however long you've been here. So every

every every month you've been you you basically acrew units up to 10 years worth of units at that point like you've maxed out your units and we distribute profits based on that. So it's not based

on which role you're in. It doesn't it's not based on the salary or your title.

If you've been here for 10 years and you're see a principal software engineer making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, your bonus your profit training bonus is the same as someone on customer support who's maybe making 90 grand or

100 grand who's been here for 10 years.

Um, so all that money goes to real people. It's real money. It's real cash.

people. It's real money. It's real cash.

No options, no RSCUs, no stock, no like any of that BS. I find almost all that to be pretty much BS unless you're like a really wellestablished public company.

Um, our bonuses are based on profits.

We've been profitable for 27 years and they're distributed every year and they're meaningful. They're I looked

they're meaningful. They're I looked this up before the the show. uh about 20 out of the 62 people last year or 2024 because we haven't closed the total

books on 25 um there were six figure bonuses and this is like year after year after year after year it's real cash that's the beauty of a simple business with a simple cap table an LLC and

sharing real profits because I I there's plenty of people in our industry plenty of our competitors which I'm not going to name that hire a lot of people and promise them a lot of stock and you watch you look at the chart and you know down and to the

Um, and I feel bad for those people because they were promised something they'll never ever get. So, getting back to real, I want to pay people with real money they can actually put as a down payment for a home, pay for the college

education for their kids, go on vacation, sock it away, whatever they want to do. This is real cash on an annual basis. And this is all part of a

annual basis. And this is all part of a good business with sound fundamentals that has high margins and high profits and uh is an LLC so we can distribute every year. We have to. In fact, you

every year. We have to. In fact, you can't leave any money in an LLC. You

can, but you got to pay taxes. Anyway, I

know. You know what? Just so like there's some pedantic person watching.

Yeah. The wrong show for that. I want to go back to Rick Rubin and you knowing yourself through this psychedelic experience

partially in your 40s. Before you had that experience, what was your inner monologue like? Let's say when you're

monologue like? Let's say when you're running your business, you're 10 years into it. You're 35 years old at the

into it. You're 35 years old at the time.

Were you do you have a negative inner monologue?

>> No, I think I was just more aggressive.

>> I don't know how I'm coming off. I'm not

I tried to be pretty. No, you're like a soulful dude.

>> Well, I don't know. Like I don't know.

Sometimes I have a scowl and people think like I I I was probably a lot more >> It's not a scowling face. The kids call it RBF.

>> RBF.

>> Resting [ __ ] face. You should see our photographer Mike. He sends me pictures

photographer Mike. He sends me pictures of me. And I'm like I'm like I'm happy.

of me. And I'm like I'm like I'm happy.

>> You're like I'm happy. Exactly.

>> There's so many times where I'm like literally we're having this conversation >> and this is how I know I'm going to do this for a long time. I'm like this is so much fun. Can I do it again tomorrow?

>> Yeah. Exactly.

>> While we're talking. So, but like my face just like >> I know. Yeah. Anyway, um I I think I was more maybe aggressive or I I don't even I I kind of don't remember myself actually. Like I'll just pull it back to

actually. Like I'll just pull it back to something else then I'll come back to this thing in my mid30s perhaps. But we

don't do like postmortems. I don't look back on things. I don't like to look back on things. Actually, Jimmy Aine sat in that exact same chair and he said, "I have no rearview mirror."

>> Yeah. No.

>> So, you're like, "What were you like at 35?" Like, "H, I don't probably more

35?" Like, "H, I don't probably more aggressive, but I don't really know."

And I'll tell you why. I I don't like to look backwards. First of all,

look backwards. First of all, >> backwards is a story you're telling yourself about what you remember about something. And it's probably not true.

something. And it's probably not true.

And it's probably perverted in a million different ways. And there's a million

different ways. And there's a million different things that have happened to you that cause you to be the way you were and all the things like I I don't know what any of them are. And the

reason I don't like the postmortems in business, and I know a lot of businesses do this, they do they launch something, they spend all this time and energy looking back on it, trying to figure out why it did what it did. And my my

general sense is you'll have no effing idea why it did what it did. You're

going to find some reasons that you're going to believe. But had you done that again, it may have turned out differently. Who knows? One little thing

differently. Who knows? One little thing could have been different. The world

could have been different. The way you said something could have been different. the time. Who knows, right?

different. the time. Who knows, right?

Like, if you want to find certainty, you're going to find it because you'll convince yourself of it. I just don't have any interest in looking back. I'd

rather learn by doing something again, making making more things. So, if you draw a line like people like, well, you should learn from your mistakes.

I I'm not sure what you can learn from them. Frankly, I think you learn from

them. Frankly, I think you learn from moving forward and doing something. You

learn by doing. You can't redo what you did. You learn by doing. So, if you

did. You learn by doing. So, if you don't like something that you did and you kind of have it in your head, just don't do that again. like that's the learning. It takes one second to know

learning. It takes one second to know that and move on and learn by doing new things. So I don't like to look back

things. So I don't like to look back now. Um

now. Um that's not like absolving myself of of things I'm not proud of that I but I don't it's like that's who I was when I did the things and that's that. So like

I'm moving forward. So I want to pull up pull up something. The reason I asked the question about the the negative inner monologue it's very common with you know a lot of people. Yeah. And um

Rick, we've been talking a lot about Rick Rubin and I love his answer to this which I it sounds like if I had if you were going to ask if I was going to ask you this question now, you would answer in a similar way. So he was asked the

question, do you have an engine of constant dissatisfaction, self-criticism that I could have done better? And his

answer was almost >> Can I guess? I don't know what it is.

>> Okay.

>> You couldn't have done any different than what you did. Is that his answer?

>> Very close. Yeah. So he goes >> and I believe that to be true like >> this is what I wanted to know how you look at this. So I was going to ask you to answer that question next. So he

goes, "No, I'm pleased with the work that we did. Excited to keep working.

It's fun." You've said this multiple times today. I don't know what else I'd

times today. I don't know what else I'd do with myself. I like making things.

It's fun. That sounds like you again. I

feel like it's my reason to be on the planet. So I just keep doing it. If it

planet. So I just keep doing it. If it

could have been better, I would have kept working on it. If it could be better, it's not done. I've done

everything I can to make it the best it can be. I can't do more than that. So

can be. I can't do more than that. So

there's nothing to be critical of. It's

almost like a diary entry. Yes.

>> Very fascinating. Everything we make is a reflection in a moment in time. Could

be a day or could be a year. 100%.

That's exactly how I see things, which is I did what I did. I did the best I could or the worst I could. Whatever it

is, it it was what I did and there it goes. Now what? like that

doesn't mean be an [ __ ] to people and like just you can be an [ __ ] like that people other people remember what you did too. So like they'll remember what you did. So you you want to just be

a good honest person anyway but like this some people might hear this that's why I'm saying this. Some people might hear this and go well that's an excuse to just do whatever the hell you want.

There's no ramifications to any of these things. There are ramifications to these

things. There are ramifications to these things but they are written in history and that is that I've always just tried to do the best I can. This is why I'm going to tie this back to to numbers.

It's like we don't have revenue targets except for like I want to be profitable.

I don't have sales targets, revenue targets, user targets. I don't have any of these things. We just do the best work we can. Like

a target shouldn't make me do better work. I should do better work because of

work. I should do better work because of the pride I take in the work that I do.

Like and and the seriousness in which I take the work that I do and the enjoyment in in the work that I do. Like

I'm going to do the best I can. That's

what I do. That's all I can do. That's

all I should be doing and I don't need something to try to tell me that I could do better had I aimed for some target.

The target is the work I'm doing now.

That's the best I can do. So fully on board. He said it more eloquently than I

board. He said it more eloquently than I did. But that's how I've always felt

did. But that's how I've always felt about this stuff. Which is why I don't like measurement. I just like the

like measurement. I just like the product. The product is the measurement,

product. The product is the measurement, not the number things that people have done in it, used it and whatever. I it

is what it is. the number, the money is ultimately like the the the byproduct of making something good. It's not the reason to do it. People are in search of

certainty all the time. And I think it's nowhere to be found. Um and so but but it makes people very uncomfortable not to know like why this happened or and by the way, I shouldn't say it's not to be

found. Like if you're making widgets on

found. Like if you're making widgets on a on a on a on a line and like all the widgets supposed to have a circle in the middle and all of a sudden the circle's off like you can trace that back to where the machine went offline and like

you can figure out some of these things.

Of course, if like they're mechanical and you can you can track it all down, but like most businesses are not mechanical in that way. They are a series of decisions, ideas, timing,

market conditions, competitor conditions, perhaps your mood on a given day, all the way it rolled out, what other news was happening in the day, the thing like

to try to pinpoint the answer and then to go, okay, now next time we know not to do or to do and to feel like you now know something that you actually don't know, but to be so certain that you do

because you figured it out. I think it's really dangerous. Is that why I've heard

really dangerous. Is that why I've heard you say a few times that you don't think you you could start you could do base camp again today?

>> Yeah. No way. No way. No way. Could I do it again?

>> The amount of friends that I have that sold a company and just thought like I'm like I'm good at company building and then their second shot is not going well or ended in failure and really made them

question who they are.

>> I think that's actually an important thing to say. It's like maybe you know you don't know why it actually succeeded.

>> I think that's true. You don't know why it didn't work and you don't know why it worked.

>> I really think that's true.

>> But it's people don't understand how devastating that is where you sold a successful company. First of all, it's

successful company. First of all, it's almost nearly impossible to build a successful company like just a tiny percentage that humans have that have ever existed have been able to accomplish this goal. This is why I started one of the shows cuz I want to

celebrate the people that have done this and say, "Hey, if you want a role model, maybe we should, you know, people that build companies and products that make other people's lives better. Those are

maybe good people to like listen to hear speak. They probably know some [ __ ] if

speak. They probably know some [ __ ] if they've been doing it for multiple decades. Turns out, you know, they have

decades. Turns out, you know, they have a lot of wisdom or they've acquired a lot of knowledge in that. But it's so devastating to have had that. And then

in in the case I always think of Trader Joe, you know, cuz again, talk about different you me and you bond over the fact that like we want to make products that are different. Yeah. I'm not

interested in making a me too product.

>> Doesn't Yeah.

>> He had a completely differentiated product. He loved it. He wrote this

product. He loved it. He wrote this autobiography. Uh, it was very

autobiography. Uh, it was very fascinating because he writes it, you know, I would say 90% of the pages are building Trader Joe's. He clearly loves it. It was very difficult. Yeah. Just

it. It was very difficult. Yeah. Just

put his whole heart and soul to it. Then

he gets scared. He winds up selling it.

I think in the 1970s if I remember correctly. It could get might have been

correctly. It could get might have been 80s. Sold it cuz he was fearful.

80s. Sold it cuz he was fearful.

>> Yeah.

>> Then lives another few decades.

>> I think three at least three maybe four decades like a long time. And the la, you know, last like 10% is like, "Yeah, I, you know, did some investing. I did

some real estate. I did consulting." But

then the last paragraph is like he he's like, "I must admit something to my own self. I wasn't true. I regret selling.

self. I wasn't true. I regret selling.

>> Thanks for listening. Joe Columbo or I don't know how to pronounce his last name. I don't know how to pronounce

name. I don't know how to pronounce anything. Joe, I'll call him Joe Colbo.

anything. Joe, I'll call him Joe Colbo.

Your accent, please. Do your

>> But then he goes, you know, uh, thanks for listening. Joe Colombo book gets

for listening. Joe Colombo book gets published. He dies the same week." Oh

published. He dies the same week." Oh

yeah.

>> Wow. That's quite a >> And I always think about that when you're like, you know, >> this guy's life, you could tell he's full of regret.

>> Yeah.

>> Full of regret.

>> Yeah. I I know people like that.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh and it tends to happen like in your 30s once you've like built this big thing and sold the first thing and you're like, I'm loaded now. I'm going

to do >> decades ahead of you.

>> Decades left. And and and and it's not arrogance. It's just like belief like,

arrogance. It's just like belief like, oh, I can do that again. And some people can't. Most people cannot. or if they

can't. Most people cannot. or if they can, they don't reach the same height.

And so they're like jumping and like it's like if you if you try to jump a hundred times, like you you can't get to those first jumps because you're tired.

And that's just what ends up happening.

And so then they might build something great, but they can't see the greatness in it because it's not as great as the thing before. And that's even more

thing before. And that's even more tragic is that they can't see something that's still an incredible achievement, but it's not the same. and other people

will see it as less than and it's just a terrible outcome. I'm afraid of it not

terrible outcome. I'm afraid of it not so much now anymore, but um David and I talk about this all the time, which is we do negative visualization and and

like practicing like what if this just like AI like what what if this just changes the whole damn landscape and like SAS is just dead in three years.

Our answer is well we had a great run like 27 years amazing and by that time maybe 30 years of what a run like we should be happy and proud of that experience not like oh damn that sucks

that we're out of this now more like we should we should be enjoying this and I hope we sure did cuz that's a rare and fortunate experience to even have that experience. Um but I wouldn't go like I

experience. Um but I wouldn't go like I wouldn't go and start another business after that. I would just do something

after that. I would just do something else. else. I don't know what it would

else. else. I don't know what it would be, but I just I wouldn't want to try to do this again because I don't think I could. I don't think I could. And I and

could. I don't think I could. And I and I think it's totally fair to admit like I don't think I'm good enough again to do what I did before. I don't have the stamina. I don't have the drive. I don't

stamina. I don't have the drive. I don't

have the thirst and the hunger to build a brand new software company from scratch again. I just don't. I would

scratch again. I just don't. I would

have the curiosity, but I know that wouldn't carry me enough. I had like probably early on I was again more aggressive, younger, pumped, you know, was early days of like we we were

pioneers like there's that kind of like energy that you have that you just don't have again. And it's fun. It's fun to

have again. And it's fun. It's fun to have again. One of the great I saw um I

have again. One of the great I saw um I think it was Bob Dylan was being interviewed on C 60 minutes and they were I think it was like morally safer or something was asking him like about songwriting and he was saying something I don't know if you've seen this quote

but it's great. He was saying talking about like he was like reciting one of his great songs. I forget the name of the song or whatever. And he's like still has an incredible memory to remember these incredible lyrics. And

he's like, "I used to be able to write music like that or write I'm paraphrasing. I used to be able to do

paraphrasing. I used to be able to do that.

There was a certain magic to that. I

don't know how I did that. I know I couldn't do it again, but I can do other things now." And when I saw that, I'm

things now." And when I saw that, I'm like, that is a mature I mean, he's in his 80s now. I hope he's mature. But

that is a mature human being to go, I could do that before. I don't really know how I did it. Somehow I did it. I

can't do it anymore, but I can do other things. And I think that's important

things. And I think that's important because like if you identify as an entrepreneur and you sell your business, like if your identity is tied up into entrepreneurship, like you have to go

start another business because you have to there's continuity there that you have to be that person again.

And then if you can't again can't achieve the heights like you just you feel like you're disappoint a disappointment. I've seen this in in

disappointment. I've seen this in in friends who who've sold businesses and it's just like it's so sad to me to see that in them when they can't just see that what they did was incredible in that moment. Like it's these are moments

that moment. Like it's these are moments that you have. These are periods of time that you have. These are experiences you have. And that's what happened in that

have. And that's what happened in that time. Actually, can I go back to

time. Actually, can I go back to psychedelics for a second?

I'm going to tell you a little story. I

don't know if it's it's good or not, but it's meaningful to me. Um, the last time I did these are mushrooms, by the way.

So, last time I did mushrooms, um, I remember going into it telling the guide I did it with, um, the I did it the first time and I had this incredible

experience to this one song. She was

playing different songs, had this one song that had this like experience where I just felt like I I learned everything like in a in an instant.

Um, another next time I did it, I'm like, "Can you play that song again at some point? I want to see if I have that

point? I want to see if I have that experience again." And so she was,

experience again." And so she was, "Maybe, we'll see, you know, whatever."

And so at some point, I was aware enough that she played the song and I had no experience. It was blank and empty. And

experience. It was blank and empty. And

after the song ended, I broke out in laughter.

And I go, "Of course, you cannot have the same experience again. You cannot

have the same experience twice. You

don't deserve the same experience twice.

It's not even possible to relive something again. That thing happened

something again. That thing happened then and this is now. They are detached.

They're separate. They can never be the same." And it was a wonderful thing. So

same." And it was a wonderful thing. So

I've now used that like with my kids like I'm like my kids are growing up.

They're 11 and seven. Like I'm never going to have the experience with my 11-year-old again as an 11-year-old.

Once he's 12, he's 12. Like I can't have that again. So, you have to really savor

that again. So, you have to really savor those things now and recognize that they are what they are now and you will never get them again. And don't be sad about that. It just it just is. And that's the

that. It just it just is. And that's the kind of stuff that like I those experiences that I that I had on those uh in in those times really like those are the things I carry with me um and

hopefully do affect the way I I move through the world now today.

>> That's beautiful. when when you were talking about selling a company and then maybe your next company in this entrepreneurs's life is not as financially successful as

big as well respected. I I I've never heard a great definition of like what like what success means and the best answer I ever heard to like what is success to you actually came from Steve

Jobs and it was beautifully simple. It's

like did I make something I'm proud of?

>> It's good.

>> Yeah. And that's the way I think about it. Like for your podcast, you need x

it. Like for your podcast, you need x amount of listeners. It's like, no, did I make something I'm proud of?

>> That's great. I think that's great. The

other way, the way I think about it is, would I want to do this again the next day? Just this whatever this was like,

day? Just this whatever this was like, would I want to do it again? If the

answer is yes, then it was successful.

Like, I wouldn't want to if if if I hurt myself, I wouldn't want to do that again. If I was wasn't proud of what I

again. If I was wasn't proud of what I said, I wouldn't want like it's a very it's the same thing like knowing what I know now, would I hire this person again? It's the same question like would

again? It's the same question like would I want to do this whatever I just did again? If so, it's successful. And I

again? If so, it's successful. And I

think that that's enough of a definition for me. It's not about money. It's not

for me. It's not about money. It's not

about It's not about any of those things. It's like, would I want to do it

things. It's like, would I want to do it again? Would I want to spend my time

again? Would I want to spend my time doing that again? Playing replay. And

and uh I know it wouldn't be the same outcome, but the experience of it would be different, but it would still be the same trajectory. I'd like to like do

same trajectory. I'd like to like do that thing again. You were speaking earlier about like humans propensity to take something simple and make it complex. Even though we crave

complex. Even though we crave simplicity, we have poor complexity, we kind of trend in the the this the trajectory of making things just more complex. I don't know why when you were

complex. I don't know why when you were speaking this came to my mind, but one of my favorite um podcast episodes ever was back in 2023, Rick Rubin interviewed Jimmy I >> talked about one of the first Rick Rubin

tells the story the first time he met Jimmy I. Jimmy's already a legend. and

Jimmy I. Jimmy's already a legend. and

he's 10 years older than Rick, so he's like was well known and Rick plays either with some other music executive and Rick plays him this song he just produced and he said some he said Jimmy said something that changed like his life or the way he thought about things.

He goes >> oh I wish I could still make something that simple >> and Rick's like and Rick's like what do you mean I'm sure you can like you're better at this than I am. You have a lot more experience than I do. You've been

doing this a lot longer. Of course you can make something simple. And the point was that you don't know what you don't know. And so he made this beautiful

know. And so he made this beautiful simple thing and then you tend to like think need to add more things to it and make it more complex where Jimmy just again like that's just the way it is when you're with him. He just he'll say one sentence he just gets right to like

the heart of the issue.

>> Yeah, it sounds like an incredible thing to have like a skill to have basically.

I Yeah, I think um that is the trend is it is it is to just to to add more things. I mean naturally and part of it

things. I mean naturally and part of it is because you feel like well people get bored of things and so they have to kind of expand the things or like there's expectations to add do more and people put a lot of pressure on themselves as business owners where they take money

from the outside world and they have to grow a certain amount because they have to return the the investment and all of a sudden they've they've unmed themselves. They've lost uh connection

themselves. They've lost uh connection with why they started this in the first place. They're no longer running their

place. They're no longer running their own business. They're running someone

own business. They're running someone else's business. They're now they just

else's business. They're now they just created a job for themselves working for someone else. Um, that's what can happen

someone else. Um, that's what can happen when you when you when you just like when you've just taken when you've taken the simple thing that you had and added a layer to it that just blows it up in a

different direction. Like in some cases

different direction. Like in some cases it makes it worse. I mean for some people it makes it better, right? But

like I think for a lot of people it makes it worse because now you're on a track which you can't get off. Like

there's only one outcome that works.

This is optionality. Let me let me get into this. My my feeling in general is

into this. My my feeling in general is that businesses like okay the most important thing to me is in business is independence which is profitability is also the same actually the same thing as long as I

make more money than I spend I can stay in business that's independence independence is also no one can tell us what to do we actually feel obligated to do things nobody would allow us to do that's like a thing David and I talk about all the time like we should do

this no one would let us do this let's do it you know that that's like the exciting stuff for us is stuff we're not supposed to be doing that to me is like just a big part of it. And I think what ends up happening is this is like so

funny because like there's no there's no dry cleaner who's raising VC money, right? There's no pizza shop who's

right? There's no pizza shop who's raising VC money. So most businesses in the world are not like this. But in my industry, like a lot of people have an idea and go raise money. And the moment

they go raise money, they've cut off almost every option. They think they've expanded their experience and their opportunities, but they've cut off almost every possible off-ramp outcome

because now they have to be in big business or they fail. That's it. That's

one option.

I mean, some people become very rich doing that, like if that's what they want to do. But most people blow right through what would have been a good business and is now not good enough for someone else. And once it's not good

someone else. And once it's not good enough for someone else, that's got to be a shitty place to be. as an

entrepreneur thinking that you just gave up this thing that was actually a good business but it's not good enough anymore. Then you can't get more money.

anymore. Then you can't get more money.

You built a business to raise more money. You built a business that needs

money. You built a business that needs more money. Now you got to lay people

more money. Now you got to lay people off. Now it just falls apart and it's

off. Now it just falls apart and it's like over because you you have no options except one. I'm a big fan of optionality. We could go IPO. I don't

optionality. We could go IPO. I don't

want to. We could raise money. I don't

want to. We could raise more money. I

don't want to. We could sell to PE. I

don't want to. Like we could quit. I

don't want to. Like these are all options that we have. We can keep going for as long as we want as as long as the business survives. It's like we can do

business survives. It's like we can do that, right? That is gold to me is

that, right? That is gold to me is optionality. And and I'd like to see

optionality. And and I'd like to see more people think that way because I think it'll benefit them and and not cut themselves off when even they think there's like this this mirage that like, oh, I got a bunch of money and like I

can do anything now. No, you can't. You

can do one thing. Build a big business.

That's not a lot of things. You feel I feel you have you're attracted to like timeless things. You have two uh tweets.

timeless things. You have two uh tweets.

One of them just went viral and it it's related to like this this you know basically craving simplicity uphoring complexity. One was about was it the

complexity. One was about was it the design of a Rolex over time and they just start was it that the brand of it was some kind of watch. Which brand was it?

>> It might have been Rolex. It might have been I mean there's a few could have been like an Omega Speed Master. They

just maintained the same design. Porsche

911 similar >> but you you were showing pictures from like I think let's just say it's Rolex.

Look at this Rolex design in 1960.

>> Oh yeah. basically perfect. Yeah. Has

everything I need, nothing I don't. Look

at the updated version, whatever. 2010.

Yeah.

>> Look at all the other stuff they added.

>> Right.

>> Why are you drawn to the first?

>> Well, I'm drawn to the first. By the

way, I don't think the new one is bad.

So, like, it's just that what attracts me is the purity of the first one because that is the purest form of the idea. And

I love ideas and insights. Someone had

an insight to design a watch that looked like that. And then from there, everyone

like that. And then from there, everyone based their designs off of that initial thing. But there was a time when that

thing. But there was a time when that was the first thing that looked like that. That gets me going. I just like,

that. That gets me going. I just like, for example, like you know, you take a a Rolex Daytona today and you look back at the first one in 1963. To me, the one in

1963, not just cuz it's older, it's better in my opinion aesthetically because it's the purest form of the concept of the idea. Everything else

from there has been layered on because they need to sell more and they need to come up with a new version, a new model and this is what happens. Like they

wouldn't couldn't still sell that first version. That's like not the way the

version. That's like not the way the world works. You have to keep making new

world works. You have to keep making new stuff right?

>> Purity is the way that's the word that comes to mind. Purity.

>> Purity and like the the pure idea like the pure form of the thing. Could you

use the word essence or no?

>> I mean essence >> is part of it. I think maybe you could.

Um what's the French word for essence? I

want to hear you say it. um uh Assants.

I don't know what the hell it is, but it's it's more about the the um the it's to me it's purity. It's like

that's the beauty is that this is the initial idea. This is the original

initial idea. This is the original concept and this is the first execution of that idea in three dimensions in in a product. actually the the the gym I used

product. actually the the the gym I used to go to had some old concept getting back to the concept two old concept two rowers and I actually really liked looking at the early ones and then looking at the changes over the years

and in that case is in that case the changes were more functional like they used better materials that lasted longer and stuff but the idea the fact that this idea of this product that's so good

today was so pure back then and still kind of the same thing like just gave me I'm I'm more attached to the brand because of that like they didn't just add stuff to add stuff They added stuff that literally did improve things. Not

just to sell new models, but to you could see the material changes.

Meanwhile, like a lot of things like watches and stuff, it's just like new dial colors and new stuff just to kind of sell more.

>> That's a great point. You know, you're adding it adding to it, but you're not making it better. So, that's the second viral tweet where you kind of laid out

this huge essay about smart electronics.

God, my parents were visiting um for a couple months, so we rented them a house down the street. So, they had some more room. That's They like the room. So, we

room. That's They like the room. So, we

rent them a house uh and uh it's a brand new construction house, so we like, "Oh, it's nice. There'll be no issues, you

it's nice. There'll be no issues, you know, no leaks and no issues." So, we get in the house and like like most new construction, it's got digital [ __ ] everywhere, right? Like the thermostats

everywhere, right? Like the thermostats aren't like thermostats that you can just like turn anymore. They're like

touchcreens. And some of those are good.

Like Nest is good. This doesn't have Nest. Like Nest is a great product.

Nest. Like Nest is a great product.

>> Um it's funny because it's a great product based on the original Honeywell design that that Drifus designed. I

forget his first name.

>> The round dial just updated that cuz it's such a good design. These are like rectangular and big and have the weather forecast on them and like >> or whatever. But actually the thermostats don't that's the alarm panel

that has it's like a huge iPad screen.

Anyway, screens and screens and everything's a touch screen.

Everything's a big black glass thing with too much stuff on it cuz you got to fill up the screen. You can't just have a tiny screen. You got to have a big screen. And if you have a big screen,

screen. And if you have a big screen, you got to put stuff on it. So, you put stuff on it. Um, a dishwasher couldn't be used the first time without an app to register it. So, like my mom wants to do

register it. So, like my mom wants to do the dishes, like they don't work. She

had to call the house manager guy. He

had to come down. He's like, "Why doesn't this work? We plugged it in and oh, there's an app. I got to get an app." Like, what? You're adding and not

app." Like, what? You're adding and not making it better >> to do the dishes. Exactly. That is your insight is exactly right. adding it, not doing not making it better. The alarm

panel is slow and laggy. The the

thermostats are um like they say a number on them and you're like, is that the current temperature or the temperature I want it to be? Like I

changed the temperature, but then there's a schedule which I can't quickly simply modify because it's like in this little menu structure with this little laggy UI and you're like who does anyone use this? Like the people who built this

use this? Like the people who built this certainly don't have this in their house. There's no way. There's no way

house. There's no way. There's no way they have this in their house, right?

This is not a product built by people who are using the product they're building. This is a product built to

building. This is a product built to specifications. Someone imagined this.

specifications. Someone imagined this.

There's this whatever. I don't know. I

don't actually know how that happens. I

I'm baffled by how it happens. The TVs,

you know, now like, you know, and I don't this is not like I'm not like a lite oldtimer thing, but like you don't turn the TV on anymore. You boot the TV up and it takes like 12 seconds to get a menu before you can before. Like again,

like there were some things that were better before.

>> Yeah. you turn the TV on and the channel that you were on would be on. Like that

was good. Like you actually It's amazing. Like you can't do that today.

amazing. Like you can't do that today.

Like that's actually not even a possible thing. Like you turn it on and you're

thing. Like you turn it on and you're back to some like menu with all the options again. It's like how do we go

options again. It's like how do we go backwards? I call this the great

backwards? I call this the great regression.

Thermostats have gotten worse. Nest

maybe is an exception. I'll give grant them that. Good product. Really good

them that. Good product. Really good

product. um

a big alarm panels, a lot of panels, a lot of thirdparty products with big glass screens, bad touchscreens often bad. In fact, car manufacturers um with

bad. In fact, car manufacturers um with the exception of Tesla because Tesla's is outstanding. But everyone else who

is outstanding. But everyone else who put a bunch of screens in their cars, they're starting to move back to dials again and buttons again because people are like, "This sucks. Software is hard and a big piece of glass. There's no

tactile feedback. I can't do it and I have to look at it. There's no muscle memory cuz I'm not sure I'm confirming what I'm doing." Like these are bad things. So that technology can get worse

things. So that technology can get worse and then it can slide back and hopefully can get better again and new lessons can be learned. But it was a revelation to

be learned. But it was a revelation to me to go into a new home with the state-of-the-art stuff and see how backwards it was. And I'm in technology.

I'm not like again I'm not a light. I'm

not afraid of this stuff. I get it. But

to see how bad it's gotten, like the light switches, like literally what when we rented the place, my my agent who who found it and whatever and did the

negotiations and stuff, he's like, "Hey, they want to like do a walk through with you." And I go, "Cool. I'll be there

you." And I go, "Cool. I'll be there tomorrow." And I thought the walkthrough

tomorrow." And I thought the walkthrough was going to be just like, "Here's the house." But it was like, "No, here's how

house." But it was like, "No, here's how you use the lights." You're like, "I have to What? What?" Like the best interface ever was like the switch. It

works on off. Beautiful. It's almost

like >> the way I see it's like that has not been discovered yet cuz had I mean it had been but that had been forgotten.

This is like an old technology from the Romans or something like how do they build concrete so well? Like we still don't know today how the Romans built concrete so well that lasted so long.

Like there's a lost art there. I feel

like the light switch is a lost art.

It's just like gone and it will be rediscovered one day and people oh my god this is so much better than this like damn technical [ __ ] you know?

There's a room and a place for all sorts of advancements, but there also are regressions. And it's unfortunate that

regressions. And it's unfortunate that that the industry I'm in is the one that tends to to sell many of these to to people.

>> It makes me think of, again, I'm going to tie this back to Rick Rubin since we've been talking about him a lot. He

has this concept of a >> just has candles in his house. I'm

guessing he just doesn't >> I don't know. I don't these guys are close to them. I ask him, but uh he has this idea of ruthless edit. And so he's like, "Okay, you made 30 songs for your album." He's like, "Pick the five that

album." He's like, "Pick the five that you absolutely can't live without."

Okay. So, now we have a five song album.

It's a perfect album. Maybe it needs some more. So, he was like, "But then we

some more. So, he was like, "But then we decide out of the 25 left >> before we add number six and seven. Did

it make it better?" Going back to you're adding to it, but you're not making it better. I think the the through line

better. I think the the through line here is >> you're you you see this like timeless design of the 1963 Daytona and you're like, there's nothing to add to it.

>> Yeah. There's nothing else that's going to make it better. So, just leave it. It

is perfect. I I know you're a big fan of Porsche. I I don't I It seems like the

Porsche. I I don't I It seems like the silhouette has It's very similar. In

fact, here in Malibu, >> do you remember going up to PCH? There

was that burnt out.

>> I do. Yes. Yes.

>> They left. You could tell >> the Palisades on the right hand side.

>> Exactly. It was a You could just >> Why is it still here? But you knew it was a 911.

>> You knew it was a 911.

>> 97. It sat there for like a year, by the way.

>> But immediately the other cars next to it burned out. I have no idea what it is.

>> Which Yeah. Which model is that exactly?

>> That was just it was like I know exactly what that is. I think about that all the time. I think product you should think

time. I think product you should think about this. Uh Jerry Jerry Seinfeld has

about this. Uh Jerry Jerry Seinfeld has this really interesting um concept where he says dosage matters >> and he's like you could go see a stand-up comedian and 45 minutes in

you're like this guy's great. Hour and

15 you go eh.

>> Yeah.

>> It's like he should have stopped at 45.

It's so hard. I guess the reason I bring this up it's so hard for us to stop to stop adding complexity. Yeah.

>> To just sit there. When I asked you about um like timeless design, go back to Rick Rubin. What I love about him and that that exchange between him and Jimmy I happened, you know, probably 40 years

ago. Rick would say is like somebody

ago. Rick would say is like somebody playing the piano, just the piano and a piano and a beautiful vocal sounded great 50 years ago, sounds great today.

That's right. It'll sound great or 50 years from now. So when you try to revive Johnny Cash's career, this great song called Hurt, which I listen to.

>> Exactly. that Trent Resner of 9 as a 21-y old man wrote it and he's talking about regret. And Rick's point was like

about regret. And Rick's point was like a 21-year-old talking about regret is one thing. A 75year-old man when he

one thing. A 75year-old man when he can't go back and fix it, it's it's a way deeper cut. But his whole point is like a great vocalist with a guitar sounded great 50 years ago.

>> It sounds great today. Let's just go back to the essence of what we're actually building. And I think, you

actually building. And I think, you know, not many people building products, you just gave the perfect example, but there's no essence there. They're not

even using their own products. No, this

actually ties into some other advice that Jeff gave us uh way back right when we first we first met him, which was that he told us to focus on the things in our business that don't change. He

goes, "There's going to be plenty of things that do change, but make sure you focus on the things that don't change."

And the examples he gave us were um said something like, "10 years from now, people are not going to wake up and go, I wish uh Amazon's customer service was worse." They're not going to wake up 10

worse." They're not going to wake up 10 years from now and go, "I wish it took longer to get a product from Amazon."

They're not going to say 10 years from now, I wish Amazon's prices were higher.

So these are the core essence elements that he clearly invested in. Things are

coming faster than ever. Selection.

Another one is like people aren't going to wake up 10 years from now and go, I wish I couldn't get this on Amazon. Like

every more selection, faster delivery, great customer service, fair prices, even competing against other people and offering the lower price even if Amazon doesn't sell it. Like these are the things in his business that he knew

would never change. and he can still explore a whole bunch of other things because they do a lot of other things but don't lose sight of those basics is something that he really instilled in us and something we've tried to focus on.

So that this idea of what is the this is the essence like what is the essence or the purity or the the core fundamental basics that really matter um and don't lose sight of those because it's very easy to lose sight of those because they

can become boring like we've done that for a while let's do something else and you can kind of lose sight of that.

>> Yeah. This is why I think people that have run companies for as long as you have are so rare. And it's why if you look at the first few guests, I bet you the a if you took of the average length of time the person has been working in their business, it's probably like 30 years.

>> It's just like I'm obsessed. You said

you like old people. People always say I'm obsessed with old people, which is funny, but I'm just not obsessed with old people.

>> I'm obsessed with people that do things for a long long period of time. This is

where me and you will actually have a disagreement where you're like, I don't work hard.

>> Do you remember talking about this last night? I was like, Jason,

night? I was like, Jason, >> Jason, and I was like, we added up. So

yeah, this is where like I would argue that you work harder than most people that have ever lived. You just have spread it across 27 years. So I

literally pulled up my phone last night.

You did and I was like >> did the math?

>> Yeah. I was like, you're like, but I only work 40 hours a week. I go, "Yeah, 40 hours a week over 27 years, whatever that number is. How many I think it's 54,000 hours or whatever the number is."

And my my question back to you is like, how many people have worked on the same thing >> for 54,000 hours?

>> Yeah.

>> I don't know.

Tiny tiny amount probably.

>> Yeah. I just I like that you spread it across time.

>> Yeah. I mean Yeah. I I suppose I mean like again it's it's it's like one day at a time. So it wasn't that wasn't intended.

>> You were laying bricks.

>> I was just laying bricks. I just keep doing it. I mean and then it just adds

doing it. I mean and then it just adds up and the past gets bigger and adds up and that's what happens. But yeah, I've always admired things that have stuck around for a long time. We used to have a podcast back in the day called The

Distance which was a podcast that we did a few years of businesses that had been around for 25 years or more. And maybe

that's not even that long all things considered, but it's quite long for most. That's incredible. And it was

most. That's incredible. And it was awesome. And most of these are

awesome. And most of these are family-owned small businesses. They just

nailed some things and got them right.

And I love businesses like that that have been around for a long time.

There's something about I'm not talking about us here, but there's something about um if it's been around that long, it's not a fluke. You can like have something that's hot for a while and it

can go it can go out. That's kind of a fluke or like a a trend or a fad or something. But to be around for a long

something. But to be around for a long time signals that there's something is repeatedly right about this thing. Right

enough to stay in business for a long time. A lot of these businesses are

time. A lot of these businesses are tight. Like you could have a a dry

tight. Like you could have a a dry cleaner that their margins thin and maybe it just is enough for them to get by, but they'd rather still be doing that than something else. And so they're in it for a long time. It's not that

it's like a great business, but it's a sustainable business. And that to me is

sustainable business. And that to me is a great business. If they can keep doing that, there you go. It's the same insight you had earlier with the leaf.

You're like, why don't you look at this leaf? It has evolved forever. Do you

leaf? It has evolved forever. Do you

know who Mark Spitzagel is?

>> No.

>> I read his book called The Dow of Capital. And this was probably like

Capital. And this was probably like seven years ago. He runs this uh this hedge fund.

>> I don't even know if he's still doing anymore but >> he has an entire chapter in that book on conifer trees >> and he draws he's like they're like the tree that is present and can survive in

the most extreme environments on Earth.

They've been evolving for whatever time extreme time period. And he was drawing all these parallels between like a great business that could survive using like the the insights he derived from studying these trees, which I think is is very fascinating.

>> I love it. I've often thought of our business as as as an oak tree. I love

oak trees. Oak trees are like trees that I love.

>> Bezos uses the analogy of Amazon as a as an acorn that grew into an oak tree.

>> I don't think about as the acorn so much. That's cool though. Especially a

much. That's cool though. Especially a

acorn. Amazon. There you go. Whatever.

Wonder if he thought about acorn as a company.

>> No, it was uh remember you remember this? you're old enough like the

this? you're old enough like the directories were in alphabetical order like remember wasn't that many websites so you could actually named it list them all >> I remember that I remember reading that

>> and he almost did like abcadabra or something like that like abcadabra or something like that and then people thought it was kadaavver and they're like >> like that's not a good association they don't sell kadabas there do they don't they don't it's amazing um the

everything store doesn't sell kadabas okay >> so like I've always thought about our business as an oak tree which is like a you know oak trees are very stable They can withstand a lot of storms. They don't grow very fast. They're actually

quite slow growing. Some are faster than others, but like in the Midwest where I came from, the like a burr oak is a very slow growing tree, but it lasts a long time, can weather a lot of storms, and I've always found that to be a very

appealing kind of tree to be versus like um a cottonwood, which grows really fast, makes a lot of noise, like you can hear cottonwoods when it's windy. They

make a lot big mess. Everyone notices

them because there's cotton all over the place. and they die in about 75 years or

place. and they die in about 75 years or something like that and they come down hard. Like it's just not as interesting

hard. Like it's just not as interesting to me. Like I don't need to be flashy. I

to me. Like I don't need to be flashy. I

don't need to leave signs all over the place that I've been here. It's going to be nice and quiet, build a great business, keep a solid foundation, add a little bit every year so it just feels

more stable and uh and weather storms. And um there's been a lot of over the years like you know in in the tech world there's a lot of um if something comes out it's like it's it's a killer. It's a

it's a it's a it's a slack killer. It's

a base camp killer. So whatever a killer like when you've been around for a long time you see that played over and over and over. There's a lot of things that are

over. There's a lot of things that are killing supposed supposed to kill something else but very few of them can withstand and and outlive the storms that come. So you can be hot for a while

that come. So you can be hot for a while but um the hardest thing is just to to stay around to stick around. So people

like how do you compete? Well we just stay around longer than everybody else.

>> Yeah. The line I have on this that reappears over and over again in these biographies is you just stay in the game long enough to get lucky. There's going

to be something that happens year 5 10 15 20 usually an innovation invented by somebody outside your company you can take advantage of uh the example of this like Coca-Cola with refrigeration they didn't invent refrigeration but it

drastically expanded their market >> Toby Toby's interview with with co in a sense like co saved Shopify in a lot of ways right >> he needed that difficult time period to then grow and to realize all the things

he was doing wrong and this is he >> and people were shopping online more and all that stuff too >> well he had that huge spike in stock price, which you talked about, and then the the it going down. But it's when he realized, oh, like I'm cosplaying.

>> I'm I'm like I'm a public company CEO and this is what I have to do. He's

like, no, there's still I love what he said in that the the conversation where he's like, >> there's not one right way to do something. There's probably a hundred

something. There's probably a hundred >> I believe that >> at least 100.

>> I think the way you did it, if you had to do it again, you do it the same way, but there are a hundred different ways to do that same thing.

>> I want to go back to what you just said, though. Like, you know, something could

though. Like, you know, something could be hot, it could be a fad. The maximum I have for this is time is the only like time is the best filter. It's the filter the only filter I trust for businesses

for ideas for books. I usually read a lot of old books but for it works for people too because like a huge influence of my thinking is like Charlie Mer and his whole thing is like you need to build a seamless web of deserved trust with high quality people.

And the only way you know if somebody's high quality is time and in him and Warren's case they knew the same people for decade after decade after decade.

I'm rereading the book Snowball. It's

like the 700page biography of Warren Buffett right now. And the amount of friends that he accumulates in his 20s, 30s, 40s that are still around when they're in their 70s and 80s is absolutely remarkable. The time is the

absolutely remarkable. The time is the the for a business time carries most of the weight is is another maximum. I got

that from Munger because he when you read Porsche Zmanac, his thing is that you should master there's only a handful of big ideas in all these different disciplines. So you know biology,

disciplines. So you know biology, physics, economics and he's like and if you just master the big ideas he says those few handful of big ideas carry most of the freight

>> and reading that and thinking about his the prior he prioritized durability in a business and I was like oh so time carries most of the weight you just have to stay you have to survive which goes

back to your blubber having you know a margin of safety blubber and small units.

>> Yeah that's a big part of it too. This

is a bit of an aside, but it's tied to it. Um, and I think it's important to

it. Um, and I think it's important to talk about is pricing. So, with Base Camp, for example, nobody can pay us more than $299 a month. Okay? It doesn't

matter how many users you have. So, you

could be a big enterprise and $299 a month is the most you can possibly our prices go way way low, but that's the most we allow you to pay us. Now, many

of our competitors will like, "Hey, you want to pay us 50 grand a month? You got

2,000 seats? We'll take it." I don't want their money because what I want is a static group of customers. Like if you think about static like an old TV, like the dots, they're all equal sized. You

should be able to pick out 10 random customers and lose I don't want to lose customers, but if you could pick out 10 random customers and lose them, I think you have a good business. If you put out a 100 random customers and lose them and be okay, you have a good business. What

you don't want are a bunch of outlier companies that you cannot afford to lose. You don't want customers that you

lose. You don't want customers that you cannot afford to lose. And so by equalizing our pricing and not letting anyone pay us more than anybody else, we create a bunch of small units which are

individual customers. And if you take

individual customers. And if you take one out, it's not like Django where the whole thing is going to fall. Like it

doesn't matter in a sense because everyone's essentially equal no matter how big you are. And then we can develop software for the customer base as a whole and not for a handful of customers that pay us a lot more than everybody

else. And that's the enterprise game is

else. And that's the enterprise game is paying is is getting as many seats as you can and landing these whales. And I

just don't find that interesting. I also

don't find it durable. Durability is

about a lot of small things and if someone wants to chip away at some of those, it doesn't matter because there's a lot more left. That's kind of what we're aiming for with durability. So,

one thing that we haven't touched on which I think is really important, we've danced around it a few times, you've mentioned a few times, is that you are all intuition. I want to hear your

all intuition. I want to hear your thoughts on intuition and I want to hear how you refine your intuition.

I mean intuition for me is just is is making decisions that you're comfortable with. I mean like and and and not look

with. I mean like and and and not look actually you do want to look around. You

want to pay attention to things as many things as you can in a sense but ultimately you have to be willing to make a human decision about something and stick by it and stick behind it. Um

I think these these things these decisions come from somewhere where you can't quite define where they're from.

Like it's not like there's one thing that tips it over. Intuition to me is like a a collection of a lot of things that you can't quite split apart that

lead you to make a decision. And um

that's how I'm driven. I I I I go by gut. I go by intuition. Whether it's a

gut. I go by intuition. Whether it's a pricing or a product decision or a feature or a new product or a name or whatever it is, we don't test things. We

don't uh do focus groups. I don't we occasionally AB test for fun, but not like because it matters. Um, and uh, and and that's it. Like I'm not looking at

numbers. I I've never seen a spreadsheet

numbers. I I've never seen a spreadsheet that's ever made me do anything. Like I

don't want to make a product decision because a spreadsheet told me to. That's

just like a thing. And there's a lot of other things that can tell me to do other things. I don't want to value this

other things. I don't want to value this because it's like a spreadsheet with like numbers on it. Like that's just a thing. and and so I'm very careful not

thing. and and so I'm very careful not to put too much weight into something that purports to be more valuable than some other feeling I have just because it has numbers on it. Um, now of course

I don't want to do stupid things. I'm

not going to like throw $50 million at a a Super Bowl ad. Like I'm not going to do that. Um, so like your intuition has

do that. Um, so like your intuition has limits too, but everything we do is based on just kind of what we want to do, what we feel. I want to feel into these decisions and go I feel good about this. No matter what happens, let's do

this. No matter what happens, let's do it anyway.

>> Yeah, that's what it is for me. How have

you refined it over time?

>> You just do things. You make decisions.

I mean, to me, like it's all about time under the curve in terms of making decisions or area under the curve, sorry, I think is the is the actual correct way to way to phrase that. Um,

so the more decisions you make, um, the more time you have, the more intuition you're refining, but you don't like actively refine it. It's not like you're you don't practice intuition, you just make decisions. And the more you make,

make decisions. And the more you make, the more you make, the more it sharpens everything up. It's like um it takes the

everything up. It's like um it takes the takes the edge off I think eventually as you make more and more and more and you're tumbling these things around essentially you end up with like a nice smooth orb and it feels really good to have that in your hand and uh and uh

it's just it feels right and that's kind of where you want to get to. So you want to have this place where when you make a decision you're like this feels like the right decision. I'm not afraid of this

right decision. I'm not afraid of this decision. I'm excited about this

decision. I'm excited about this decision. It could go wrong and I'd be

decision. It could go wrong and I'd be okay with that too. Like I just know that this is the decision I want to make right now and I'm lucky to be in this position where I can make it. No one can tell me I can't. Like that's another

part of intuition because you can have intuition that keeps hitting a ceiling and someone else says no and then you don't get to use it. So intuition has to be used I think to really be enjoyed and

uh that requires again back to independence back to uh optionality as well. Jason, one of the coolest things

well. Jason, one of the coolest things about my job is that I could have somebody like you that I've read and has shaped my thinking over a decade and a half. We become friends. you get to hang

half. We become friends. you get to hang out and then you also get to, you know, come on the show and then share all the things I love about you for everybody else. I really appreciate the time

else. I really appreciate the time today, man. This is [ __ ] awesome.

today, man. This is [ __ ] awesome.

>> It's been a blast. Thank you so much for having me on. Thanks for doing it.

>> Yeah, you bet.

>> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please

remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review. And make

sure you listen to my other podcast, Founders. For almost a decade, I've

Founders. For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear

your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through Founders.