Jeffrey Sachs: U.S. and Israel underestimated Iran

Jeffrey, we have just heard from the Supreme Leader of Iran, Ayatollah Mushtaba Kaman. His statement was uh the

Mushtaba Kaman. His statement was uh the first since he was elected by the Assembly of Experts. It was read on Iranian television. He called for unity

Iranian television. He called for unity among Iranians and he said the martyrs will be avenged and he also called on

all US bases in the Persian Gulf to be closed immediately or they will continue to be attacked. He said the straits of Hormuz, that vital sea route will remain closed. Seems like he's taking a very

closed. Seems like he's taking a very hard line, not in the mood for any kind of compromise or negotiation. Given

that, where do you see this heading?

>> Well, what kind of negotiation? Iran

tried to negotiate twice. Both times it was bombed by Israel and the United States. Iran is under a absolutely

States. Iran is under a absolutely brutal attack. It's under carpet

brutal attack. It's under carpet bombing.

The US and Israel are destroying infrastructure. They murdered this man's

infrastructure. They murdered this man's father and the leaders of the Iranian government. They are killing thousands

government. They are killing thousands of people. So exactly what is to be

of people. So exactly what is to be negotiated? This is a a a brutal war of

negotiated? This is a a a brutal war of aggression by Israel and the United States and Iran is responding. And it's

not surprising that they are responding.

They're under threat of conquest.

Basically, that was what Trump said that he would pick the new leader that Israel and the United States would run Iran.

Well, the Iranian people have a different view. Clearly, they're showing

different view. Clearly, they're showing up by the millions to say that they don't want to be run by the United States and Israel.

>> Right. And President Trump is also claiming that the United States has won this war. That's what he says. Yet we

this war. That's what he says. Yet we

see the missile attacks continue uh by Iran, by Israel, by the United States. I

mean, do you envision any scenario in which the United States can declare victory when we don't even know what its objective is?

>> Well, yes, I see a scenario where they can declare victory. Trump does. So, he

says things for the immediate moment or for show or because he believes them.

We're never absolutely sure which it is.

But is there a way to real victory by the United States? No. This is a disaster for the United States. It is a disaster for the whole world. The US and

Israel have thrown the entire world into turmoil.

Perhaps into World War II. This was a brazen violent uh illthoughtout

to say the least uh move by these two countries and now we're all suffering the consequences of this.

>> You say we could be in World War II.

There are already more than a dozen countries involved in this conflict. Uh

most of them uh in the Persian Gulf. Do

you see it expand to other parts of the world as well?

>> Well, the United States is at war in many places. It is at war in the Western

many places. It is at war in the Western Hemisphere. It invaded Venezuela. It's

Hemisphere. It invaded Venezuela. It's

talking openly about invading Cuba, which it's currently blockading. Uh it

Trump just met with Latin American leaders and talked about other military operations in the Western Hemisphere.

Trump has threatened to invade Greenland. The United States is still

Greenland. The United States is still heavily engaged in war with Russia in Ukraine. We have war spreading through

Ukraine. We have war spreading through the Middle East. Israel is invading more countries. We have the war of Pakistan

countries. We have the war of Pakistan and uh Afghanistan uh taking place.

We don't know. But it could be that when we look back even in weeks or months, we say, "Yes, World War III has started."

The United States is so reckless, so irresponsible, and led by such a delusional uh president right now that um I'm sorry to say that anything is

possible.

>> There are more than 1,500 Iranians who have been killed in this conflict so far. But we're also facing another

far. But we're also facing another crisis that is an energy crisis. The

world is facing an energy crisis right now. Oil prices are spiking. Energy

now. Oil prices are spiking. Energy

experts say the full impact of this is yet to come. And we've just heard from the International Energy Agency, which says that this is the worst energy supply disruption in history. How will

this affect and impact the global economy?

>> The way it's going, uh, this year will be an economic catastrophe if this continues, and it looks like it will

continue. Uh we know that there are

continue. Uh we know that there are massive disruptions of oil supply.

That's the point that the international energy agency just made. We know that uh only selective tankers are passing through the straight of four moves,

those that Iran is allowing to pass through for China and reportedly for India. But we know that there is a

India. But we know that there is a dramatic decline in availability of both natural gas and oil. And history has

shown especially in the 1970s when there were two such oil supply disruptions that the consequences for the world

economy are extremely severe, sharp, and relatively rapid in arriving. So, I

think we're in for a very, very significant uh global crisis brought to you by Israel and the United States.

One strategy the Iranians are using, and some call it an asymmetric strategy, is to hit US Persian Gulf allies, many of which host United States uh bases. Of

course, uh Iran is hurting their economies by targeting uh their oil supplies and oil infrastructure. It's

also targeting vital energy industries.

What do you make of this strategy by Iran and its effectiveness?

Well, Iran has been hit repeatedly by the United States in Israel, actually for decades. We can go back to 1953 when

for decades. We can go back to 1953 when the United States deposed a democratically elected prime minister and brought in a police state for

several decades. We can go to the war

several decades. We can go to the war that the United States supported against Iran by Iraq in the 1980s. We can go to

a a long list of assassinations by Mossad and the CIA in recent years. What

Iran is saying is we are under attack.

This is existential. and the uh countries in the Gulf by hosting the enemy of our country that is trying to

destroy us uh are part of this war against us. Now Iran has said and the

against us. Now Iran has said and the new supreme leader has said that this is not a war against the neighbors. It is a war against the United States which is

trying to destroy Iran. And just listen to any of the words of Trump or Netanyahu. It's uh not hidden. It's very

Netanyahu. It's uh not hidden. It's very

very brazen. Who will run Iran? Trump or

the Iranians? This is what's at stake.

So from the Iranian position, this is existential. If the world stood up and

existential. If the world stood up and told Mr. Trump, "Go home. You're not

going to pick the supreme leader." And

said to Netanyahu, "Live within your borders. Stop making so many wars in the

borders. Stop making so many wars in the region. it would help us to get past

region. it would help us to get past this very very dire crisis.

>> To what extent did both uh the prime minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu as well as President Trump underestimate uh the Iranian military? Not just its

battlefield effectiveness, but also the strategies that it is using. It is

taking on two countries, both nuclear armed countries in this uh conflict. uh

vastly superior military forces.

>> The United States during my entire lifetime, which is getting on, has underestimated its adversaries from

Vietnam uh onward. The United States repeatedly has declared victory in days or weeks only to find that the wars

extended years or decades with the United States crawling back home afterwards having failed in all of its stated objectives and having squandered

trillions of dollars and cost hundreds of thousands of lives. So this is very common. Yes, they completely misjudged

common. Yes, they completely misjudged Iran totally. They said so that this

Iran totally. They said so that this would be one decapitation strike that people would come out on the streets against the regime. Trump would pick the

new leader. This is the fantasy world of

new leader. This is the fantasy world of American leaders, especially Trump who's has the most delusional perspective of all. But we've had many presidents that

all. But we've had many presidents that are quite delusional in this regard.

They are so drunk with military power that they completely misjudge the rest of the world.

As I mentioned, more than500 Iranians have been killed in the conflict so far.

That also includes 168 school children who were killed in perhaps the most egregious of those attacks when their school was attacked in the south of the country. Preliminary

investigations indicate show that the United States was responsible for killing those children. It was one of its missiles that landed on that school.

We look at South Lebanon where the Israelis have been bombing uh the Lebanese there. Uh 200 children have

Lebanese there. Uh 200 children have been killed there. And I was wondering to what extent or how great is the risk the likelihood that we could see Israel

do to Thran and Iran what it has done in Gaza?

>> Yes. Israel has committed a genocide in Gaza. Uh because its doctrine is kill

Gaza. Uh because its doctrine is kill its adversaries. Uh kill them in mass

adversaries. Uh kill them in mass numbers, kill the civilians, kill the women, kill the children. This is the

Israeli doctrine of war. They don't

discriminate between civilians and and military targets. They leveled Gaza.

military targets. They leveled Gaza.

They destroyed all its infrastructure.

They destroyed all the schools, the clinics, the mosques, the hospitals, the housing, the water, the sanitation. And

we don't know the full uh death toll, but it almost surely is in the hundreds of thousands. If you take not only the

of thousands. If you take not only the bodies that have been collected, which come to around 80,000, and those under the rubble, but people who have died of

exposure, of lack of safe water, of nutrition, lack of access to health care, and so forth, this is a brutal regime. I'm sorry to say it, it's

regime. I'm sorry to say it, it's terrible. It is a rogue, brutal regime.

terrible. It is a rogue, brutal regime.

It's doing the same in Lebanon now. And

it's doing the same with its carpet bombing of Tehran in Iran. And the world needs to stand up and stop accepting

this as something even remotely normal or acceptable. Israel needs to go home

or acceptable. Israel needs to go home and live within its own borders and get its head together again because it's

acting in a completely completely insane way. It needs to stop this. This is mass

way. It needs to stop this. This is mass murder with US complicity. So this is something that absolutely needs to stop.

Jeffrey, you know, as you point out, the world needs to stand up and stop this.

But when we look at the number of children, for instance, that have been killed and the fact that it's not receiving wide attention in the media. I

mean, is there also a danger that the killing, the murder of children in this way, mass murder as you point out, is being normalized?

It has been normalized because at least in my country in the United States and in much of Europe and thanks to CGTN for

telling the news as it really is, our so-called legacy media or mainstream media, do not report the truth. And we

are subject to so much propaganda all the time, so much normalization.

It's beyond imagining for me. I attended

a UN Security Council meeting a week ago, the day more than a week ago, the the day that the bombing started. And

what did all the Western countries do?

They attacked Iran for being bombed. You

know, this is propaganda. This is

so-called narrative control. So yes,

mass murder has been normalized. Uh

you're told, "Oh, if you say that Israel committed a genocide, oh that's anti-semitic." It's not only not

anti-semitic." It's not only not anti-semitic, it has nothing to do with anti-semitism.

It is the grim reality that needs to be understood so that it doesn't continue to happen.

President Trump uh is not discounting the option of a land invasion. And of

course this recalls the Iraq invasion.

But if we look at Iran, Iran is much bigger. It's a mountainous country. It

bigger. It's a mountainous country. It

will not be an easy country for anyone who invades on the ground. Um I mean this could result in massive US casualties, couldn't it?

>> I don't believe it. I think Trump is full of it in general and I don't believe this can happen. You know, when when the Iraq war happened, the American

people were lied to relentlessly. We

know it wasn't an error of judgment or doubt. It was direct lies, propaganda

doubt. It was direct lies, propaganda that there were weapons of mass destruction that needed to be taken out.

It was the excuse for war. At that time, the American people supported the war.

Now, the American people are completely against what Donald Trump is doing, and that opposition will rise over time as

their gas prices go up and as their incomes go down and as their jobs disappear and so on. So, for Trump even

to think about putting troops on the ground, the political explosion that would happen in the United States would be absolutely enormous. So he's just

facing the fact that every miscalculation has come to pass because he's delusional, because he has no strategy, because the whole group of them has no

strategy. But I do not believe that

strategy. But I do not believe that there will be boots on the ground because, as you say, it would be a disaster and it would start in the stark

opposition of the American people. When

we look at the US history of military assaults invasions assassinations just in the past 25 years, it's left a trail of mass death and destruction. How

would you describe the damage and destruction the US has left in the wake of what's been referred to as the the Americans forever wars?

Well, 30 years ago, Benjamin Netanyahu when he became prime minister of Israel uh with his American adviserss

uh launched a a project called Clean Break. Uh the idea of clean break

Break. Uh the idea of clean break everyone should understand is to prevent permanently a state of Palestine alongside a state of Israel. So it's

based on a criminality because it is international law uh that there needs to be a state of Palestine alongside the state of Israel. But the purpose of

clean break was to say any government in the Middle East or North Africa or the Horn of Africa that supports the Palestinian cause and supports

resistance, we're going to overthrow.

And that is why there are so many wars because greater Israel delusion of

Netanyahu uh and the American complicity has led to wars in Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Palestine,

Lebanon, uh Syria, Iraq, Yemen, and now Iran.

That's part of the doctrine. And it's

crazy. Instead of just having a Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel, according to international law, we have wars across

the Middle East that have claimed hundreds of thousands, millions most likely, of lives and have gone on for 30 years now.

>> Professor Jeffrey Saxs, thank you for joining us.

Thank you.