Jim Walmsley on the UTMB Playbook, the "Black Shorts" Idea, and the Future of Trail Running

All right, Jim Wamsley, great to have you back on the Single Track podcast.

How are you doing today?

>> Doing good. Yeah, looking forward to connecting and catching up.

>> Did you get a chance to watch Havalina this past weekend? And if so, what were your thoughts?

What were your takeaways?

What stuck with you?

>> Uh, I followed it um a little bit.

Uh, checked in. It's kind of a weird time watching it in Europe. I think I was sleeping most of it. So, uh, but yeah, Fast Times, I guess, is the first takeaway.

Uh and then Will Murray with kind of a second big big hit of a run, but uh the top three guys kind of smashing the time and it's not just one guy, not just two guy, like three.

I think it's kind of indicative of uh more aggressive racing and potentially like a really nice day, but then also I saw lots of ice kitty pools. Um, so I think the way uh Jimmy and Aravipa kind of run their race and run Havalina and how they do it and how they kind of run it as like let's get people uh Western States qualifiers is like probably the biggest pull for that race for people to do it a lot of times. And he truly has like a big massive team behind the scenes to pull in an enormous amount of ice that like is not normal. Uh so even sunny warm October uh lots of people are running fairly fast uh in warmer temperatures because the amount of ice doesn't exist in any other part of the world uh pretty much.

>> When you look at Will's time 1210 does that seem at this point like a respectable time for that course?

Like if you were to ever go and do that race would prior to this year would that have been like the type of time you were going >> break down to pace I guess.

to have >> low sevens. I think I have to go I have to pull it up on Straa, but I think I think low sevens.

>> See, little 7.2 to do 12 hours.

Uh I got it. I got it right here.

One second.

717 >> seven and what's the gap on that is the other thing you kind of got to start to look at.

>> It's pretty flat but it's not perfectly flat as everybody kind of there will tell you.

>> Gap is 701.

>> Yeah. So then if you compare the gap to world record 100 mile pace like 635 then there's still 20 seconds per mile to kind of buffer with uh to go faster.

So you're looking at sub seven minute pace potentially if you put up something comparable to what Alexander Sorson has done in flat track 100 mile stuff.

Like if you truly want to rip it and you're you're truly hitting uh consistent paces.

But I mean they're not doing washing machine style there anymore, are they?

Like they in the past they used to do washing machine style and I think it's all a circular direction so you do every single loop um the same.

and like on the exact same trails. I've also ran uh basically like a 248 250 50k um before the trials and kind of that was the beginning of the overtraining where I didn't really come back I would say before the trials but uh it happened on the Peton trail is the majority of that loop.

I think what they run for Havalina um the extra section is maybe a little hillier than uh the rest of the section.

But I mean hills uh it's kind of hard to call them hills at 7 minute pace.

But uh yeah, it's not flat.

You can say that.

>> I didn't realize you were overtrained going into the marathon trials a few years back.

I would call it cuz like uh when things got hard in the the marathon, I would say I got popped off the like front group a little bit and it was super windy and that's a hilly marathon.

Um and I I just know reflecting back on it, I didn't have like the fight to latch back on and I was dangling off the back for another three miles and I'm like I need to close the gap.

like my my life quote unquote relies on closing this gap and um I just didn't have the same fight I have uh normally like I should have been able to get back on and they get pulled for uh more and more distance but um yeah I mean the trials like essentially I'm flirting with marathoners outside of my league and uh yeah I got pulled as as good as I could and whatever then you're kind of on your own and uh you just need to wrap up the day at that point once you're popped off the back of the front of the pack at the trials cuz technically like uh yeah the fight's not the same to be in the group and then not be in the group and you're just off the back like technically the point of the race is to compete for top three spots and I mean if you're in the group there's some small hope but I mean as you see I guess in this case maybe 15 to 20 guys like pull away you're like well I wasn't even close so uh there's not uh as much fight.

This reminds me, let me ask you this question.

So, actually, first, who who has the harder transition? You going to trail?

You a highc caliber trail athlete going to the marathon or a highc caliber marathoner coming into trail? And why?

>> Depends on mentality and perspective a little bit, but I would say for the most part, the transition from marathoner to trail should go better than trailer to marathon, I think.

um and especially a highlevel marathon like something really interesting.

I don't know if you caught the story of this guy Jimmy Wellen, Australian cyclist, just ran the Valencia half marathon.

Did you see that at all?

>> I did.

>> Yeah. So, former pro cyclist for three or six years or so in the I think just below the world tour. So, um what do they call it? But nonetheless, it's still professional cycling. He was for like Q 36.5 and he just ran 61 30 uh for half. It's really respectable high high level half marathon. Um and he was just behind uh I think Alex Yei uh from the UK who just ran like 101 12 something in the half same race.

Um but he's the gold medalist in the Olympic triathlon.

And then Jimmy Wellen's a former um pro cyclist that transitioned to go to triathlon, but he's chosen to do I think Olympic distance triathlon would be my guess. But um yeah, so that that's like a really unusual change.

I would consider that going trail to running um sort of thing, but still 6100 is not competing with 5630 at the front with uh Jacob um Kip Limo.

like yeah, it's still hard to kind of say you're truly competing at the front.

Um 61 to 62 has kind of become the standard.

I think I'm surprised the US trials has actually kept the qualifying time just at 63. I think it should be 62 0.

>> But um yeah, I I I don't know. I I would say marathoners have the engines.

They have a lot of skills that are useful, but then kind of they would follow a lot of like what I would say my trajectory of coming in the race and just all these deadends, traps, and ways that as a big engine you can get yourself into trouble in trail running because the race just isn't like short enough to manhandle it that way. Like uh you you just can't power your way through it because you're fit enough to run 100 miles.

like okay on a track or something maybe it's becoming that way because you have this efficiency but throw in some really steep hills even they're going to punch you into just walking up it and how do you deal with walking and now you're walking for uh say it's a two-mile hill at 15% and it's mile 80 in a race like that's pretty interesting for someone to be able to handle it and okay do you have experience with like getting broken down to a walk that late in a race and if you do like can you regain it like your stride again after mile 80?

Um like a lot of that foresight I didn't have when I was coming in when I like I remember Lake Sonoma 50 mile um first time I ran it was 2015 and I remember like mile 42 mile 43 I was hitting hills and I was walking I'm like I suck so bad like I'm broken I can't run it anymore.

This is crazy. But then um with experience and like I went back in 2016, I think 2015 eventually like I I I think I even passed someone ahead of me and I saw other runners. Not going to throw people under the bus per se, but other like professional highle guys that are famous in 2015 I was not famous on the scene at this point, but like guys that had made it contracts and um I they they were walking and going backwards or or walking and they they managed to hold on a place behind me, a place in front of me sort of thing. And there's a little bit of a perspective of like, oh, I'm not unique in the fact that I'm blowing like my muscles are blown up and that I'm having this issue. the the reality is is like pretty much everybody's kind of going through it and how you handle it and take it in stride and then like once that hill is over you regroup and just get back on with it. Um, that was a really good takeaway in the fact that like when I ran I that same 2015, no I guess 2016 would have been my first run at Bandera and just starting to like the brokenness of ultra running like you get broken down.

part of that being normal and that um everyone from the front of the race to the back of the race goes through it or I I always like telling one of my original stories of uh my third JFK cuz I say it's my the third time I like really tried to race it and run it and run a fast time. So, um I ran JFK in 2014, 15 16 and yeah, I don't think I'll ever I don't have plans to go back. I I won't say never, but >> you can't say never.

>> Yeah, exactly. But uh yeah, it was a discovery race for me that I kept going back to.

But the the third time in 200 Yeah, I think it was 16. Uh I tried to put like oomph behind it. But mile 38, I So I I also first started I think in the original Tracer shoe, just lightweight foam shoe.

Ran the whole Appalachian Trail on that. ran the marathon sections in mile 38. I'm I'm bonking and my calves are completely cramping up.

And I remember sitting down drinking a whole 20 oz bottle of Coca-Cola, changing my shoes into the Challenger twos and just going, I I'm so broken. I just need to get this race over with and finish and find the finish line. Don't let anyone catch me.

Um, and I ended up switching my shoes.

My calves loosened up a bit again.

Uh, I end up finishing okay.

I got back some pace. I think I finished like I was running maybe 5:45 pace then I stopped for over 3 minutes and then I continued and I managed to continue at 6:30 pace.

Um but there's this awkward like 3 minute gap of no one really knew about it.

They just took the average time of all of it, but they didn't realize how fast I was running, then just utter explosion stop and then continued.

And then so I ended up holding on for 521, which was 13 minutes faster than Max King's time of 534.

And so everybody was like, whoa, this is crazy.

And that year with Ultra Running Magazine, it won it won um performance of the year. But then for me, I'm like laughing behind it of like nobody knows the story behind it of like I was completely broken and the reality that people think that that's like the performance of the the year and oo and awe, but in reality I knew I was broken during it and just like yeah, the reality of ultra running is it gets ugly for everybody.

I guess I want to come back in just a second to the marathon versus trail debate because I think I have a good hypothetical for you.

But you mentioned the 2015 Lake Sonoma and actually I had a few questions about your 2015 season that are kind of random, but you won JFK that year.

I think that was your second JFK win, but in the leadup to that it was kind of bonkers.

You did this GOI 50k race >> and then this this the 100k world champs in in the Netherlands. Like how did you piece together those three races >> in a in like a two and a half month?

Like how'd you get to Gobi?

>> So I don't even know when Gobi was.

Uh >> it was it was mid-occtober >> and then I think And you got third win.

You got third.

>> Yeah. I got smoked by two random Kenyan guys, marathoner guys that showed up and they were passing a water bottle back and forth and I just discovered a running vest and I'm like oh they're not drinking or eating anything. I I'm going to catch them eventually.

Like they're going to get tired and then they just kept jogging away and I'm just like ah I'm actually the one breaking. Um but it was a bunch of sand. It was super random.

I think I left flags. So 2015 is kind of the crazy year in my life because I got officially like kicked out of the Air Force at that time.

Moved back in with my parents for a few months.

Found a apartment of Footsom uh Zebra Hilleski to sub lease I think I butchered his last name. Sorry, Footsom.

But uh I subleasased his room while he was still in college for like summer.

And so it was an apartment with a bunch of NA kids essentially. And I I started working at a bike shop in Flagstaff and but essentially I started to live in a place consistently and kind of start my life consistently again in like May in 2015 or maybe I hadn't started working till July because I think before the job started I was able to go out to western states and see western states for the first time, see Hard Rock for the first time as just kind of a dirt bag to someone with nothing to do just like bills are going to start coming in so eventually I need to go back and start working.

And uh yeah, so like it was just a huge transition year.

But one of the ideas with getting into ultra running was that I wanted to take up the opportunity to get like paid for travel. Like so I never thought in 2015 that you could get paid enough for trail running to not work essenti like not work a different job.

I for sure I thought trail running like you're working a part-time job and you get to do this on the side and it's just going to float bills while you get to do what you love and just a hobby.

And then like now fast forward to our sport now it's just insane there.

There's so much more growth and opportunity at this point and it's I think we're truly in the prof like professionalization of the sport and how that changes different edges of the sport. But uh I think the sport's multiaceted and can balance more than just one aspect. But so 2015 essentially I think because of my JFK I got invited to the world 100k road championships in the Netherlands.

I think I got hurt. So that was my first race back but I like >> 20th place.

>> Yeah. So, but you know, I went through 50k in 303 and the world record at that time was closer to maybe 618, something like that. And I went through in 303 and I guess like people were freaking out of like who is this?

This is not right. And like I guess my parents actually went out there and um they were like other teams were coming over to look at my bottles and like what's in his bottles? Like he's got to be like this is insane cuz I think I looked great.

But the other thing too is I I traveled to like this is my first time racing abroad ever.

Like no nothing. Don't have a training plan or anything.

I didn't I had some injuries so I didn't know how I was the shape was coming in.

But I started running.

I'm like ah well this feels good.

So let's let's just try to keep it sustainable.

But I remember going to the Netherlands and going like I didn't bring any nutrition.

I'll just buy some at the store.

It'll be fine. Like they they should have goo. They should have what at the time? Power bar.

like uh anything that I would recognize as American kid.

And I go in, I'm just like I don't know what I'm I don't know anything here.

I don't have any plan.

2015, I don't think I'd made a nutrition plan for a race. So, yeah, I think I kind of sipped on some like shaken up Coke that the coaches said would be good.

And I remember most bottles absolutely just popped and exploded in my face with Coca-Cola. And I was covered in sugary Coca-Cola most of that race.

Uh and then mile 75 I remember lying down on the ground just going like I've never hurt more in my life.

Uh 70 70k 75k or 70k 75k and I lie down and then Camille Herren passed me in that race and then uh and then I think I got up and I passed her back and maybe beat her by a few minutes. Uh, so she was out on that trip and yeah, it was like kind of a just a wild time of trying to learn races.

And then Gobi Desert, I think I left Flagstaff and came back to Flagstaff within 5 days. And then they also like because they they they paid for my flight and paid for accommodations.

But my memory of this is like I was not in a tube of some sort for maybe 10 hours and the rest of it I was just traveling because I they flew me through Detroit. So, it ended up being like maybe a like a super long flight to China. Then a bullet train for like I think two different trains of five hours to get out to the middle of the Gobi Desert and then like maybe arrived in the night, slept, woke up, did a race like Ford put on the race and I didn't even know Ford existed in China at the time. like I just my my whole concept of the world. I hadn't traveled much at all and like just didn't know what I didn't know at in at the time and didn't think about things as much and was just kind of open-minded to discovering new opportunities.

But I guess as I've gotten more opportunities now I'm more selective of like, oh, I've been here before. This sounds like a terrible trap and like really cool opportunity, but it's just not the way I want to do it. And uh yeah, being trapped on a plane and a train and then just shipped straight back is just not my favorite uh thought of a way of doing a vacation.

Not not what I thought I would do if I got the opportunity to go to China.

As a fan, it's my opinion is you should at least make room for one equivalent of the Mosquite Canyon 50K every year.

There should be one cool little off thebeaten path race that you hop into.

>> Yeah. Uh yeah, Mosquet Canyon was fun.

And I think that was a little bit of a revengeance tour from 2016 cuz I remember I was I was absolutely like hammering Mosquite Canyon and there's a a T junction and I I still to this day swear the arrows said turn right for for the 50k but it's like you go through this junction two times and I just read it maybe that like nonetheless I I turned completely like opposite 180 direction and ran down and I had read about Ford Canyon in the race, which has this big like granite white slick rock area that's very distinguishable.

But I mean, it's a solid like 3 and 1 half, four miles in the wrong direction.

And then I just booked it the other way.

I still won that race somehow, but um not like for the effort I put into that, I I really didn't feel like I had anything to show for it in 2016. And then I think also I had a Sundto Ambit 3 at the time and it totally crashed my data so I didn't get to upload it. Um and I was really bummed like I I don't have any clients anything from that. Um yeah it was a little green one that Yeah, I wore that most of 2016 but yeah it crashed and I I don't even have the data from the first one cuz I I swear I absolutely clobbered some of that stuff and it just counted for just what felt like nothing.

Um, so then this year I I wanted to use it as a training run to uh get like kind of just a bib on before doing Keianti.

And then uh then all of a sudden like uh I think the day before I found out maybe Eric Lauma's racing. I'm like man well it's not going to be a walk through.

It'll be So then I get like kind of prepared to race and then I'm like trying to stay back with Eric and I think we ran our first 10 miles together and then I'm like ah I feel good.

I think I think I'm just going to go and like it it'll be fine. I'm not going to push too hard and then kind of squeezed it a bit. Um but uh might have ended up putting a little bit of um uh too much oomph into it uh looking at the gap by the finish line. Um cuz we ran a third of the race together but ended up over 20 minutes apart I think by the end of it.

So So coming back quick to the marathoner versus ultrunner debate.

I'm going to give you a hypothetical because I kind of want to see how you react to this when someone in the media discusses it.

Let's just say that we learn tomorrow that Joe Cleer is going to spend all of 2026 building towards OC.

He's going to hop in like the Desert Rats 50K and he's going to try to grab a podium spot there, auto into OC.

Does someone like you who has spent their last 10 years dedicated to the sport?

Is there a chip on your shoulder you get if like someone in the media like me gives someone like Joe call it too much >> probably happen with uh Dez Lindon soon.

I mean, she seems on the brink of getting into Ultra, but at the same time, like Joe and Dez are in very different phases of their careers and and I thought Dez was supposed to run Havalina.

But >> yeah, but the the question I think for you is is it is it disrespectful to give them too much credit as they are rookies just because of their talent in a different discipline?

I mean, I think it would be American focus and you and people that are more in tuned with American track because Europeans wouldn't be interested in Joe Cleer at all coming to OC. I would say like I would say he's won national championships, but he wouldn't be on like the French radar outside of some track.

Like it's not like he's well known within Diamond League or something like he's getting a Diamond League start bib.

Um, so it's not a big name whether like say Je Jacob Kipmo came to OC, I mean he would deserve or Elliott Kipogi comes like they deserve every little bit of credit and it's one of those things whether it's Joe or Elliott Kipogi coming like that attention still goes into rising the whole sport and so I think as a sport we need to be receptive of it and not like confrontational or offended by it.

Um, >> I think it's fine. I think uh OC is still I it's it's a nice entry list like entry spot.

I think if I'm coming be like if I was coming from bigger shoes than what I did if I was in Joe like Joe's accomplished so much more than I ever did in track college professionally times everything.

But um I I accomplished or I I didn't even come close to what he's done in his running career in equivalent to Vince.

And I still came in with the ambition that like I want to win UTMB like OCC CCC.

Why am I stopping there?

Like but then the thing is if Joe goes straight into UTMB, how do you think that's going to play out?

>> That's a question to you.

>> Yep. Honestly, not well. I think there's too many variable. It's a different story.

There's too many variables.

>> It it's it's going to get like it's not going to come. Hey, here's actually another example which has Joe Joe's opening up in New York this week.

Um I think for the marathon.

>> That's why I bring it up. He's top of mind for me.

>> So, uh Duncan uh Pere, let me check his last name.

Dun. Do you know Duncan from Hoka?

>> No.

>> Okay. He's a French guy, but he's ran 209 for the marathon. Uh he's gone to Hoka camp I think actually the the year I won 2023. Uh he was at Hoka camp prepping and he's a 209 guy. He got in he raced in to UTMB and uh he's like I yeah I'm going to I'm going to race UTMB.

I'm just like really and then he just wants to rush rush race.

>> Was he the first 10k? Yes. Okay.

I remember that >> he was winning the first 10k but I think by 20 miles he wasn't in the front anymore.

It was just like ah Duncan's done.

Like what happened to Duncan?

And h I I hope he gives it another try.

I think he's really like curious about it.

But also like there's a struggle with slowing down enough to make it to the finish.

Like it it's a true struggle with fast people in ultra running.

Like you you can't run six minute pace on the course for UTMB.

And then like what happens when when you're alone by yourself for 6 hours in the middle of the night for the first time ever and you've never used a headlight or your headlight goes off like and you forgot to bring a proper spare one because you tried to run your your headlight too strong like uh there's there's certain like little variables that can easily break it.

But you you know like another example because with Will Murray having success and him coming out of like seemingly nowhere sort of thing this year.

I mean he's he's on everybody's radar I think after uh pulling off second place at Black Canyon earlier this year.

But um so so I think like everybody's pretty happy to see him pop up again this year.

But um I was like well how's he pulling this off?

Like he seems like he has his stuff dialed.

Like he's not he's not coming in blind. So that's one really interesting thing too is if someone like Joe comes in with the proper resources and the proper people and mentors and a lot of times like say I I I would look at like um at least when I was coming over to UTMB in the 2017 I was racing France Diane and Killian and Zavier.

Yeah. So, we'll we'll leave it with that. Even though the the race was really big and um had even more winners than that during the race, but I I look at the like kind of mentors around me and people around me and people helping to prepare me for it and I I would say I didn't have a team of any sort like that to be prepared.

It was mostly me going out testing my own stuff and and trying it. And I I would say as an as Americans, we don't have like the structure and framework to set Americans up to transition successfully to European racing. And a lot of it will end up like you'll do it on your own.

You don't have the budget starting out as an athlete. you don't have maybe things are changing with with brands supporting athletes more than 10 years ago, but 10 years ago like there there wasn't the same support and things are more on a dime and on a budget and yeah, it's it's it's a lot harder to take public transportation all the way to Sears and now um and then show up and you have to do all the like say the the team meals together and then you're American so you have your own specific diet.

because all Americans have a specific diet. I'm a vegetarian.

I don't eat meat. That makes me a weirdo in a lot of parts of Europe.

Like it makes eating harder in in different places and having a bit more support and budget makes those or or brands putting things behind makes you not have to worry about the logistics and being taken care of as much and all of a sudden like you can worry a lot more about performing.

But for Americans to come race at OC, race at UTMB for the first time, um yeah, I would say at the moment there it's kind of just good luck. Uh you kind of got to get thrown into the the deep end of the pool a few times.

Um I I would say in Europe and like part of me just going like, well screw getting my ass kicked like this and the the fight's not fair and yeah. So, I I'm going to come over here and I I'll learn how to survive over here on my own.

And essentially like, oh, guess who's on this side of the pond now?

And like, yeah, I kind of like looking at it that way of of making myself comfortable and and figuring things out. And then just uh yeah, I mean, I love it over here, too.

I love like I I love how hard the the nuances are as well. Like, I I I I enjoy it.

But um yeah, there's a lot of whatifs.

If Joe came into the sport and tried to attack it, I would say it's difficult.

And then for him to come into OC would be a very mature approach to trying out the UTMBB series because it would play to some of his strengths.

But you also have to run the descents a lot faster.

So what happens when Christian uh Majino or is chasing you down on the final descent?

like, yeah, you got a big problem if you can't run downhill uh much faster.

So, you're talking about all the infrastructure you need right now.

Are you saying that if we went back five or six years in time when you had that awesome tent city build out in the middle of the San Juans, was that the wrong strategic like setting aside the training was basing there and creating that lifestyle?

Was that the wrong decision for winning UTMB?

I I think it's I I mean I still went to the San Juans last year. I I don't I I love the Sanans enough to make that mistake, I guess. Um I I love the the time around Hard Rock and the people out there doing it that um to me it's worth it more than the race and I like that experience.

And so there's that.

But um do I think it's the best professional move to set up a tent and live at 3,000 mters 10,000 ft, freeze your ass off in the morning and uh like run most of the day and then eat some crappy meal at camp and uh if I have to cook it myself, maybe if I'm lucky, just cook me a nice meal.

But uh like no, I'm not recovering.

And then most years I'm trying to throw that in between recovering from trying to race at Western States and then rebound for UTMB.

Like I I think the way Katie Shai did it is perhaps the best strategy of she raced Western States and then like the next day she was on a plane back to France and not at 3,000 m um camping.

Like I if I were to try Western States UTMBB double again, like yeah, like I'm tired of wasting my time at UTMB showing up hoping that my energy will be good enough to beat the best guys in the world at a 100 mile mountain race during the night.

Like uh it's proven or it's shown to me three out of three times like I struggle with my energy given like western states, San Juan's at 3,000 m.

uh UTMB. It's It's not been a good recipe for me. But I'm I'm like ignorant, hard-headed enough, and stupid enough to still go, well, if I did Western States, and then I just went straight to France and I only lived at 1,000 mters and I started out slowly and I just started adjusting back, similar to trying to copy what Katie did successfully like I'm hopeful that maybe that could work.

But um then that means skipping the San Juans.

And then what does that mean?

because if I'm in the US then then like I definitely like would love to go out to the San Juan. So yeah, it's hard and I mean it's just life like you got to make choices and I'm we we are lucky enough to live in a time in the sport where maybe those sacrifices aren't needed fully quite yet and I'm still fairly successful at racing.

um still getting away with doing a lot more of what I love and I don't have to be pent up like a track athlete or a cyclist and professional professional.

I mean when but then again like you look at Ruth Croft and Tom Evans the way they train for UTMB like it it they're training like professionals and you go like well does it take that to to win UTMB now?

At least I would say I I would argue that um not necessarily because essentially um learning to be outside and and deal with the elements and stuff also has a lot of pros in in our sport and in in a lot of ways you can embrace uh that side of it kind of long days out in the mountains.

>> Let's talk about worlds for a second.

I have a lot of questions here.

I think the first one is just if you think about who was there and who wasn't, who was missing at Worlds this year that you would have loved to have competed against and why.

>> I mean, it would have been like a home courses it would get for Killian.

So, that'd be nice. Uh, yeah, if Joe Per wanted to try that one, that one would be that would be the hard like one of the it would be the hardest race for like a a track guy to go blind into.

Like, that wouldn't go well.

Who else wasn't there? I mean, Franis wasn't there.

Um, Killian Davier, like these are guys that um >> Is Franis still relevant at that type of distance?

Is that at that like relatively like a sub 10hour race?

>> It's eight hours. Um, but it gets to be technical and steep. Uh, like none of it's like smooth running. Um, he's good at running flowy technical.

Um, it would have been more interesting.

I I mean, so one of the cons of like a world championship is I guess two things.

One, it competes with the other distances and it uh because there's other guys on the US team that were on the short course that would have been nice to race at that that race CCC. Um things like that.

I mean, not having UTMB one month earlier, like a couple extra weeks, and not having people that ran CCC a bit more tired, like um having Franchesco a little more healthy. I think he he had a tweak in his hamstring or glute um and wasn't able to kind of prepare on the descents as much as he would have liked.

So he he felt he had a problem with the descending.

Yeah. But at the same time, I think Louison and Benjamin like on that technical and long of terrain are about as good as it gets. So um yeah, I I think things um it it was interesting.

Yeah, you get to line up and do it once.

So, it is what it is. Uh I guess who do you think uh was missing and Yeah.

So, I guess real quick about the world championships is it goes three deep for each country and it's one of the negatives of something like a world championships as opposed to a diamond league or a UTMB or a Western States is limited in a lot of ways, but um something where say eight Kenyons because they're the fastest marathoners can all line up at the Berlin Marathon.

You're not going to get that at the Olympics.

>> I think to answer some of your I mean I had some curiosities even on the women's side.

I could again you would need to fact check me but has Courtney Dewalter ever participated on an American team at any of these World Championships.

>> Yeah, she's done the 24-hour before.

>> The 24-hour. Okay. But in the trail context, I would have loved to have seen her >> on that team. I have to imagine opportunity was there.

>> Yeah.

I Yeah, I don't know. Um, I would have loved uh Ben Demon. I I like that one seemed like a no-brainer of like uh him knowing the terrain super good, but that had to do with uh he had twins um born uh right around the same time and basically UTMB worked out timing wise with uh due date and worlds did not.

So uh life life uh took priority there.

So understandable. Tom made the the choice to do UTMB not worlds. I I took the choice to to do worlds, not UTMB.

So, um yeah, top two guys at UTMB are quite good.

>> This is something we've talked about a ton on the podcast.

We've also referenced this when it comes to like which races are the right qualifier, stuff like that, but how do you feel about um like resumes versus competing your way into this race?

>> Um building how our sports is at this time.

Um I'm fine with resumes. I mean at this point like just this year Katie and I both applied through resume and then myself in 2019 the last time I did the team I applied on resume and I I won the what's it now the short course race.

So I I'm okay with it. Uh I think yeah so I I'm okay with it. I I think uh the the qualifying races don't typically hold enough weight in them um to necessarily warrant like attracting the best US runners. Like most the best US runners will make more money, make more fame, make more uh future endorsements by doing other choices than the qualifying races.

And that's truly where it gets undermined is just that there's a bigger professional uh schedule to do than um Gorgef Falls uh this year um or say yeah even the guys racing the short race stuff.

Would you rather take like the top American uh Taylor Stack from Golden Trail results or would you rather make him race uh out in East Coast uh what is it?

New Hampshire.

um to >> to uh to qualify for the team or would you rather send him over to get more race experience >> racing technical stuff in Europe where most I mean Lon Mountain I think like looks like a real deal race course um actually like it looks quite technical and chunky but you're not racing too many I think Remy Laroo comes down and races it cuz he's not too far away but um not not too much international competition.

Um, yeah, there's still just something about kind of getting your teeth sharp with international competition that I think especially at the World Championships, if it's ran in uh Insbrook, when it's ran in the Pyrenees, um I guess the next one's in Cape Town, it's going to be really awkward for everybody because it's really travel for pretty almost everyone.

Maybe that will actually attract more um federations from Africa, which could be really cool. or get other federations from Africa to send uh short course long course teams because notably like uh Africa didn't like Kenya, Uganda are the two that kind of show up.

Ethiopia doesn't send anyone.

Um Aritria doesn't send anyone. You could kind of list all sorts of uh really strong running powerhouse countries that don't send teams uh in short course, long course.

Uh but it goes to that's because um short course and vertical or sorry classic and vertical fall under world athletics historically and those federations will only fund athletes to go to world athletics world championships and therefore they don't fund those athletes to do the other courses.

So they they don't do them at all.

Um, we don't even know really how much if there is a subculture of like longer distance or longer trail stuff in Uganda, Kenya yet. Um, I know I've seen Jacob Kip Lima run the Ugandan Trail National Championships.

I don't know if you ever caught those results a couple years ago, but he he ended up winning.

I think they it was only like a 45minute race for everyone except Jacob, and he won in like 41 minutes. So he was four minutes faster than everyone.

And then the way that they started this year watching the Ugandan team was pretty like funny.

From their junior team up to their senior men and women, there was like about a mile start and finish of the race on roads and they would get like a 30 second gap and then all of a sudden like they would kind of hold it through trails and then they get another 30 seconds on the road section.

So they were just absolutely hammering road sections.

>> Okay. You're kind of selling me on the resume.

Are you are you would you set would you go as far to say get rid of qualifiers and just go all based on resume for team selection?

>> Yeah, why not? So do that and then all of a sudden I mean so like the the long trial stuff you also get six resume spots as opposed to four.

That's a bit more generous.

So why why not make two open? I mean this year Adam and uh um from Alaska I'm blanking on his name took second.

Trac. Yeah, sorry.

Sorry, Trac. Uh they they raced in. Um yeah, we we got two really good runners based off of uh the qualifying. Um, but the rest of the team was off of resume and I think uh so then pick.

So we had Zach, me, Caleb, and who am I missing?

Tyler Green. Yeah, I don't know.

I It's interesting.

Part of me during the race was even wondering if like the the French team had kind of made the right call in making their runners not race UTMB weekend when I'm with two French guys and I saw Vonant at the beginning of the race too. So I knew he wasn't too far back. So like are they bringing in more freshness that's going to be a huge advantage. So, not that you have to skip a race blah blah blah sort of thing, but if you're on the team, how much do you need to sacrifice to focus on that?

And that becomes a bit interesting because how much is the World Trail Championships like how much weight does it hold within our sport at the moment and how much weight will it hold at the next championships and beyond?

Like, it's hard to say. I would say Insbrook and the Pyrenees have been the most interesting to me in that uh the like being European based seems like it's all the Europeans really buy into racing it and it becomes a lot more competitive.

>> Um >> Cape Town's pretty far and I know Europeans don't like traveling.

All right, I texted Caleb before this and I said, "Hey, I'm I'm talking with Jim today.

What should I bring up with him?

" And he said two things.

the Black Shorts series, whatever that means.

And six key prong. Six key prom.

What is six key prong?

>> Yeah, six key prong. Uh I was supposed to send him home with that. Now I have two games of it. I I Yeah, actually if you give me his uh address. Uh but um so well, Sysi Sysone's the easy one.

So that's just a card game. Um in the US you can buy this game. It's called Take Five and it's a lot of fun. Uh we Yeah, I think I learned it with France and his family and then uh play it with Simone and Laura.

Um so most of us in a rush know how to play the game and it's pretty fun.

It's kind of a if if you can play with like six people, it starts to get quite dynamic and fun. But um I try really hard at this game. I lose really badly many times. Sometimes I do okay.

Um but uh yeah just a card game um with numbers and and yeah so >> and it's the equivalent here is take five.

The equivalent here is take five in the US.

>> Yeah. Yeah. You can find it in the US as take five.

So cis keep means six who takes.

So a different way of saying the six person takes five cards is uh take five cards.

>> Gotcha. Okay. I'll check it out.

>> Um I I think it's actually originally a German game.

Uh, and then black short series is kind of so I think Caleb was writing his article um about kind of the landscape of trail running a bit uh which I've been meaning to um read uh because yeah, I don't know but everything's kind of died down since the World Championships for me and I've just kind of gotten put it on the back burner and haven't gone back.

But uh it's relevant to this question, relevant to the answer of the black short series. But essentially like well what could be the right solution to our landscape of um say a grand slam, say a series. Uh so a lot of when so Caleb came out to a rush uh for 10 days or something um maybe at least a week uh maybe up to two weeks. um came out to arrest.

We got a bunch of nice training in together.

Um as I was kind of recovering from OC and he was uh wanting to just have a place to train but um not go to the Pyrenees too early. So uh that was super awesome and really cool uh to have Caleb come out to a rush cuz we don't get too too many Americans coming out.

Um so uh always special.

But uh yeah, got to take him out on a lot of ridges and um yeah, he just wanted to see peaks and peaks and bridges.

So yeah, we hit a lot of the ones from what what we can hit from the house without probably doing 30 plus miles. Uh but if you did 30 plus miles, he would have gotten to see a lot a lot more. Um but I don't think he got too much uh sunny weather.

Um but uh so Black Shorts series kind of became um perhaps what you could call the ideal race circuit series to attract the best races and the best professionals.

And essentially um your shorts kind of start the especially the color of your shorts start designating um whether like everyone mandatory has to wear black shorts and then um the brand and the coloring in the top like you essentially can have teams you can have uh brands you can have uh you can have brands that aren't within running sponsored teams. So, how can you attract banks, uh, businesses, financial firms, companies with money that have enough money to throw out a bunch for marketing?

Like, let's stop um dipping into just running's bucket, but like, let's look into the orange top, black shorts, Home Depot team. Let's say Home Depot might have a bunch of money to put into marketing, but they don't know where to put it. Or say there's a Toyota team.

car manufacturers have tons and tons of uh marketing money and they they need a place to spend it or the Red Bull team or blah blah blah.

Just making these out, not trying to make any points about what brands should or shouldn't be in the sport, but essentially sometimes some of these companies are are much much bigger than um just a say a shoe running brand.

And I guess that would be the point.

Or you you're able to get a bigger team budget or say you have a a couple and you you can put together whether it's a cycling jersey or an F1 package of of brands to put together to run a team and how you get them to to do a league.

And essentially um the league then would guarantee X amount of dollars to do their series. Um, so you have to have a retainer amount that's going to be enough of a salary that's lucrative and attractive enough to keep you in the league on its own. And say there's three races per year and you have to compete in two of them. So you always have everybody racing headto-head at least once.

Whereas like say Golden Trail, you have a lot of people right now not racing headto-head all the time.

And if they're not racing headtohead, the the race kind of becomes a dud and it's not so interesting.

And then it went into kind of the race series of like what would be the most classic races that should be part of the schedule. And uh I think that even evolved into potentially a two-year schedule and actually each year alternates um which races are on the schedule.

Um, so like say one year it has Western States as a 100 mile option and then the next year it has UTMBB as the option and say um yeah, I I think we all agreed like we're all shorter distance guys uh that um thought Transvulcania would be a good one to throw on there. And when I told that to Francois, he said uh well if Trans Volulcania is on there then uh tour should be on there. Um, so tour 330 and then it's like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa but like I'm not but then for France like his opinion and what his opinion of ultra is like um yeah it's kind of and maybe to say like how say 200 mileers are blowing up in the US and how longer races are blowing up in the US because if I see uh what was the most recent 200 mileer?

Yeah, you're in the 200 mileer crew of of all these things. Okay.

So why wouldn't tour be like this big massive?

So everybody thinks they're so badass for finishing Cookonia or finishing Moab or blah blah blah. But then dude, you everybody knows tour is the most badass 200 mileer you can possibly do.

And if you haven't done tour, you haven't really survived like the 200 mileer.

Like all the influencer guys need to know like tour is the You actually do it.

And that actually qualifies you to go do tour deier which you can't even enter unless you finish tour.

Like so then it goes to like tours.

Like it's funny because this existed before all of this and like then you get into guys of like probably most these guys doing uh Coca-Cola or Moab or Tahoe or whatever Arizona Monster.

And then so they they've never heard of Franco Kohi uh the Italian guy that's on tour four times who's just an absolute legend in Italy.

Or if you go run the tour course, they they just ask you like they'll just tell you the last time they saw Frankie running by because he's just doing laps out there and they're like, "Well, that's cute.

You're just going to get your ass kicked by Frankie." And then if you tell them like you've you've won UTMB or you've ran UTMB, they go, "Oh, well that's cute, but this is different, so we we'll see how you do here.

Uh, but thanks for coming out." Um, yeah.

So, I I I don't know. Nonetheless, France got Whoa, whoa, whoa. So maybe Trans Volcania at 48 miles doesn't make the list, but um there's a lot like say it's Madira Island, Trans Grand Canary that are kind of in that 70s something mile range.

Um but I don't know. I think the World Championships being in the I mean it ended up being 8 and 1/2 hour race which was faster than what I thought but I mean it was a 50 mile race that took 8 and 1/2 hours whereas you take away Lake Soma with 10,000 ft which most uh Americans can can like concept uh 50 mi 10,000 ft like ah it's it's pretty hard for the US or like pretty up and down at least you could say uh especially because I don't think there's any climb over 2,000 ft consecutively there but Um that that took me less than 6 hours I think at at that. So this one's like 2 hours 40 minutes longer probably maybe more being like technically probably had a better performance at world. So like it's pretty crazy that the same distance can take that much more time.

Just listening to you talk about this.

I like as a fan, as a spectator media, I love the idea of this of every single possible trail discipline being packed into the season and maybe even increasing the number of times you guys race, especially if it starts at like a 10K or a VK and then you that you finish the season, you book end it with tour in midse.

>> Yeah. Do we really want to see like the ultra guys going head-to-head in a VK when in reality like Remy Bonet would beat us all by four minutes?

Like >> it's it's uh or make us race a 10k on the track like it's not necessarily may no it's not the spirit. So I think we should pick things that are representative of ultra trail.

Not trail just ultra trail. I think it comes down to how much you believe in talent translation.

I think we I think a lot of people think that if if you're fast, you can move your way up, but I do think it can it can go the other way, too.

And I think you've proved it with, you know, the the versatility with OC and worlds and you probably kind of funny because like in our world, we look at OC is the the little kid short race of the UTMB series like, oh well, that's the small one, so you can try that.

>> It's over a 5h hour race.

Like that's the funniest part about like say like Golden Trail runners coming up to OC.

All of a sudden you go from running an hour and a half to maximum two and a half hours.

>> You throw them in a 5 hour race and it's just whoa whoa whoa whoa. Like this is hard.

Uh, and not to mention like on the first climb, uh, you you take the the best climbers in Golden Trail and you throw them in like well they're they're they're literally in uh OC as well, but like they're running the same pace as uphill too um to start. So it's not necessarily like people at least in shorter trail are faster.

But if if you go you bring in let's say bringing up Joe Clucker but uh OAC or Naz Elite you talk to marathoners track people then they would just assume they would come in and well if if the short trail guys the golden trail runners are running that uphill if I focused on it I would obviously run further.

But they're totally underappreciating that people come into trail running from so many other aspects and like in ultra especially so many other attributes come through that are like super cool that someone like Will Murray can come in and shine in our sport because it's endurancebased.

You don't need this like proper leg speed training of doing these artificially 200 m repeats on a perfect like perfect perfect track that you you're just not going to get sustained on a trail.

Like you you need to deal with actually getting roughed up with actually having bad footing, like never being able to push off how you want to push off with rolling your ankle early in a race for managing fueling.

But that just comes into like more and more we're figuring out that uh well not we but more people are figuring out that if you make a fuel plan it goes a really long way and actually performing to your capability but nonetheless there are more variables and you can mess up and it's hard to replicate uh good results one after another uh in the sport.

>> What are your three like off the top of your head right now what were when you were brainstorming with Caleb what were your three races for this series?

Yeah, cuz it it also kind of goes to what has the current stadiums that would also be attractive.

So that plays a context cuz ideally I think we all agreed we'd love to pick races for the aesthetics of just the course, just the environment of the people and and like what it goes through.

But I think the reality is like without a doubt like you can't avoid kind of UTMB in western states with how big of a pod like a a stage that they provide and and the reality like even me doing OC this year um it kind of being a fun surprise to pull off winning it.

UTMB has such a bigger stage and like the biggest takeaway at OC this year was just man I I wish I was on the bigger stage at UTMB trying to do that again like that that prize is worth so much that it's it's worth failing and not making it to the top of the podium at UTMB to to have a chance at it.

Um UTMB like compared to western states is a lot bigger globally than western states.

Um I don't think you comprehend how much bigger until you see the differences and see how many people and stuff like Yeah.

So, but at the same time like the other idea of it is trying to balance out like racing globally. So I think finding a big race in China would be super important.

I think the race that actually just happened the other weekend, let me look it up. I think it was it was it's near Shanghai. Um but it seems like most of the Chinese athletes go race there.

>> Ninghai is it?

>> Yeah. Ningghai. Yeah.

>> Ninghai. Okay.

>> Yeah. So talking with uh I think Dua Xi uh who's a Hoka runner um that finished I think fourth or fifth in at UTMB this year.

He had a huge breakthrough at UTMB and that was super super cool to see because he's been trying to have a crack at it for a few years and is starting to make waves.

But um he he's had tons of success on the Asian race circuit with 100 mileers, but as he's come over to Europe, like several of the Chinese runners, they they're it seems like they're a bit underperforming just um similarly to sometimes uh say myself as an ignorant American coming over and feeling like I underperformed.

It felt like they were walking away feeling like they didn't get what they came for.

And I think uh more Chinese runners are coming over earlier. They're coming over with more food, more like figuring out where to buy rice, where to get other people to come in with food that they can eat because like they're going like days and weeks with like upset stomachs eating food in like the the western world or like sort of thing whether they go to western states or UTMB.

So, um it's not a fair playing, uh field for them to come to Europe and race or I mean, yeah, think about um some of the African marathoners like the the way they're able to make stuff happen um across the globe or potentially you could argue uh some of the troubles Kip Chigi's had coming to race the world major marathons in the US compared to his success in Berlin, which is a similar time zone and stuff.

There's just a lot more travel involved.

Um, so I I think uh alternate western states UTMBB years.

I think uh I I like trans the idea of trans volcania.

The spirit of the the race in the island seemed to be great potentially diagonal deu I think is the hardest hunter mileer in the world.

I think we all agreed like we'd love like Mount Fuji to be on there, but it just doesn't seem to have the consistency of being able to pull off like like since it's in a lot of the original races of the Ultra Trail World series that broke off and now some of them are part of the World Trail Marathons and some of them are are part of the UTMB series. If you go back and look at those original races, a lot of those are actually pretty awesome and they had a lot correct at that time.

Okay, this is a hypothetical and the the the options here span across sports.

So, keep that in mind. You can win one of these events that you haven't won yet.

Sears and all, Grand Raid, Zagama, Pya, any single >> pya winter.

>> Yes.

any and then the last one, any single stage of the tour to France.

What are you picking and why?

>> Well, I think skiing would be the hardest for me. Pyena would be the hardest.

Uh just I didn't grow up skiing.

It's never never never going to happen.

Uh like I I'm further away from winning Pyena than I am the stage of the tour to France legitimately.

Uh >> the technical side of it is insane if you haven't like I I grew up not seeing snow till I was in till I was about 16.

So like just not not happening.

Um yeah a stage tour the tour to France is pretty cool and then to be able to still have a trail career.

>> Yeah. I don't know. Um, as far as running stuff, Sagama Sier now or diagonal de Fu. I mean, my career-wise, I'm going after diagonal deu before going back for Yeah, I I'm not so interested in racing uh the the shorter trail marathon stuff as much as I am with true ultra trail running.

Um, I I'm interested in the ultra side of the sport.

uh and kind of have a bias towards that.

Yeah. So, I I guess quick answer is uh I'll take a tour to France stage.

>> Yeah, sure.

>> We've been I think it'd be cool. Um which stage?

>> Uh I guess um winning an ins stage.

It doesn't get bigger than winning on OP.

>> Uh Opus finish and uh GC day.

>> Yeah.

So, we've been we've been talking a lot about how the sport could change or just like exciting new developments and you know, I'm thinking now about the PT and I've always been curious to what extent are you involved in the PT? What do you think it does well? Where does it where do you see room for improvement?

Like how how influential can it be in >> bringing all this stuff into reality?

>> Yeah. Um, so I'm not really involved.

I'm I'm a I'm a member. Um, I think I I I pay the dues.

I think there's dues every year.

I don't know who they invite, per se.

Um, but I think I just got like included on emails from the beginning because of my like ITRA index. So, that that was that.

But I would say they actually represent the the the runners the best with negotiating and talking to UTMB.

Um and then specifically that goes through Julian Shyier who's now the lead role as as far as accepting um information, requests complaints uh anything coming from athletes or yeah pretty much athletes uh will will get funneled through him these days.

That's his job with UTMB is to um kind of streamline that and and bring that towards uh the bigger company of UTMB to to make things better on the athlete side of things.

Yeah, I I don't know tons and tons.

It seems like a good initiative and I'm kind of supportive of a representation from the the runners from a total, but I would say I I don't um don't have a lot of involvement in many other facets of the sport besides racing. Um earlier we were talking about just like places you've based out of to train and race and this I don't know how I didn't know about this earlier, but I didn't realize you were like curious about Vermont.

How did you almost Landon, Vermont as your as your US stateside training base.

>> Wait, where did you hear that from?

>> Well, I heard it from Dan Curts.

>> Okay. Yeah. So, you have an absolute bias right there. Uh, no, I don't think so.

>> Wasn't what wasn't Bos Ian Boswell was talking about it too? I think like there was a couple sources here.

>> So, I think uh at first like just firstly I would say no. It's never been necessarily like uh followed much with like pursuing um an actual training base.

It is an interesting area like it probably New Hampshire actually from like geographical standpoint in the White Mountains becomes a bit interesting actually and then ironically enough that's where like several ultra runners have kind of been birthed but um uh yeah the White Mountains have like a base to summit quite high they have really rugged weather um they have really technical trails old trails um bit more of that humidity but then The travel from the east coast to Europe is so much easier um than it is from the west coast.

The west coast is like quite a bit harder to go two three more time zones over to Europe whereas uh the west coast will typically be 6h hour differences.

Um then uh yeah we we ended up there um mainly because of uh the Wsley videos getting to know Anzel Dicki becoming friends with him and then us moving back to the US uh last yeah last year when we were moving back at the end of November.

We we had stayed here for in France for 3 4 months, but we were on our way back to Flagstaff and essentially um the idea of stopping by to see Anzel in Vermont came up and then um I think Anzel's like, "Oh, well that's when Ian Ian's I I know Ian Boswell through Wahoo. um and then following him through his own cycling career and being also a fan of of his him as an athlete. But um he puts on a peach peach ham fondo pi like fondo uh which is just a fun you do the route and it's not for race or speed but you just do like say I think it's about a 60 50 or 60 mi route and uh it's in leaf peeping season of the northeast and uh so bas basically the timing worked out to stop in stay there for a week or 10 days um met up with Eric Luma out there and stuff so it it was We really enjoyed our time.

Hadn't really spent tons of time out in that part of the East Coast and um it was very interesting learning experience about everything.

Uh Dian Kurtz took us on some of his local trails.

I think don't know exactly what they were, but we probably got to look at Lon Mountain somewhere.

Um yeah, there's some like ruggedness like moisture on the roots and rocks.

Uh a lot of similarities to maybe racing um in Europe.

Um, and then kind of looking at map stuff, uh, with the long trail and, uh, and the White Mountains, it it looks like an interesting option, um, of why maybe Americans Yeah. Yeah.

Why it wouldn't be um a potential trail training hub for more Americans.

I don't know. Uh, probably because you you would always have to travel everywhere.

So, you want to race in the West, then you always have to travel. Um, if you want to race in Europe, you always have to travel.

So, um it becomes kind of a middle ground. Uh but we we ended up doing it just based off of uh taking a vacation. I wouldn't say we were considering it as a a homebased place.

>> Yeah. I think I think Dan was probably trying to mislead me so I could bring it up on the pod and and uh bring some attention to to the Northeast >> King.

We really liked it. Yeah.

>> The I mean, funny I just pulled up Strava.

The last activity that you have ever uploaded to Strava publicly is the Peach and Fonda.

>> Yeah. on uh yes.

>> Okay. So, I guess Francois has kind of been in your ear with Tour, but I also know that there is some antagonism between like the influencer side of the sport, which has currently taken over 200s, and like the actual pros.

How much closer are you to believing in the legitimacy of races like Coca-Cola as a as a place to do competitive battle to really like have a good like good athletes are there, good times are being run, all that kind of stuff.

>> Pretty far, I guess, is the short answer.

I I don't think the competitive battles >> I'm a super fan. I'm a super fan, but you could insult him. Go ahead. Go.

>> Yeah. No, I I don't think the competitive battle there is Is there intriguing stories and this and that?

Sure. Yeah. Like people are going through a lot and everybody's going through a lot and that and it looks really tough.

Uh I I think it's a different um evolution of the sport that will take on different characteristics and um at what point like as a sport do we we so I think supporting 200 mileers and longer races um 200 miles is just also just a ridiculous American measurement but um just let the races be what they are let's have some long ones try to make it like someone never ever ever finish this under 50 hours or something sure or like I don't know things should be maybe based on how much time they think it should take but um yeah like you're you're skipping sleep you're swelling up as you're doing it.

Um, yeah.

I don't know.

Uh, I don't know. Try to get caught in like some I I guess Coca-Con people got caught in some good weather this year with rain, but um he also could have gotten lucky and skipped a lot of it.

Um I don't know.

Yeah, we'll we'll see. Like like does does someone that wins Kodona, do they have to prove themsel in a 100 mileer to prove that they're a good ultra runner?

Not necessarily because essentially some of the uh many of the attributes that are like enduring in a 200 mileer is just still not getting shown in a 100 mileer and especially how 100 mileers have evolved into a proper race like they're they're getting out competed in the 100 mileer and essentially like well grand old debate are would the 100 mileer runners be the better 200 mileer runners?

There's going to be yes and no.

Um, >> some of them are going to have really great opportunities to continue being towards the best of the 200 mileer and then there'll be plenty of 100 mileer people that wouldn't make the the transition.

And it kind of goes to passion and as a whole sport like um where where do we want to put our priorities as far as like I think we need to kind of start defining the overall defend event uh sport of which events are kind of the top of our pyramid priority and how we weigh the competitive aspect until things choose to be or like things develop to be as competitive without a doubt.

I mean, without a doubt, right now, I'd say it's not as competitive.

Um, but then like say perhaps there's a better argument that short trail is as competitive or more competitive as long ultra.

But as a sport, I think we should try to give priority to the longer ultra in this aspect because in my opinion, I don't want a marathoner to come over and have overnight success in our sport.

I think if it's a good race, a good course, um, sort of things like there should be enough that someone needs to commit to be a ultra trail specialist to win the event. Um, more so than just avoiding racing other people that are doing similar things by just choosing a longer race in this case.

Um, yeah, here is a major hypothetical.

Next year, Hoka adds Coca-Cola as a tier one race tier bonus structure.

They put a $100,000 bonus win on it and you get the rollover.

So, there's a huge incentive to go do it.

What time are you targeting on the course, assuming it's on your schedule?

>> And the current course record is 58 low.

>> Yeah. Uh, yeah, it's still only eight f eight hours faster than tour with how many thousand feets of up and down?

Um, I don't know. I I would say I haven't seriously considered enough to give it an actual time thing. Do I think I'm better than 58 hours? Not necessarily.

I think if I raced Coca-Cola, I think there's enough time for me to transition to May. But, uh, for the most part, it's a tight timeline.

And yeah, you got to find like at the end of the day hundred $500,000 when you're broken and feel like Like trust me, it it's not going to like it just I don't care anymore.

Um money is not going to motivate you to do things and to do things well that you're not already intrinsically motivated to do.

So um yeah, I think I'll just stick to my schedule.

Um, I I feel like I've like branched out in my career too early many many times and like gotten whack-a-ole and uh always learn things the hard way.

Um, but I I'm not sure I guess I want like to see my career out to trying to chase 200 mileers too just because it's another place I haven't tried to win yet.

like maybe I just don't go there and I don't have to chase this neverending thing to try to prove anything.

I'm just happy with competing where I'm at and I can compete as long as I can at these races and then that will be that and eventually I won't be winning and the world will keep going on.

Is there a different This is kind of philosophical.

Is there a difference between and and this is in a race context is do you see a difference between getting the best out of yourself and getting the best out of the competition?

>> Yeah.

Um I think they are not like necessarily tied together.

They can be exclusive events.

Um sometimes it takes getting the best out of someone else to get the best out of yourself. But um not necessarily like I think you can find time trial experiences uh like yeah I I say um during my 100 mile or sorry excuse me 100k uh effort um yeah I've dug as deep as I've ever dug in myself and I'm super happy with like I I know my memories of that event uh in 2021 will be of like I I dug so hard to try to get a certain time that I'm I'm very satis satisfied with the 100k I did run.

And then there's like the other page like say you want to go into 200 miles, you want to chase Sierra now, you want to chase blah blah blah. And then I go like, well, guess what? I've never done a race like I've never ran a road race in a in a PEA foam shoe. Like I haven't ran a half marathon. I haven't ran a marathon.

I haven't ran a ultra in a pea foam shoe or um sort of thing.

So, like that opens up a whole another can of worms. And what do you want to ch and it just kind of goes to there's too many things to chase. And um yeah, I think I first saw the quote from Ellie Kipogi, but essentially like don't chase two rabbits at once cuz essentially you won't catch either one.

Sometimes it's best just to focus and stay a little bit in your lane as much as a rogue uh trail runner can do.

Have you ever I guess as a follow-up to that, have you ever won Western States or UTMB without needing your absolute best on those given days?

Uh, yeah.

What Western States? What year?

>> Um, I would say 2021.

I kind of walked away going like I didn't need to do Western States ever again.

and that yeah, I ended up winning by an hour and a half.

Uh, and yeah, there there was uh more room for air and like basically I got to Forest Hill at the fastest time ever and um there was a big gap but I thought people were still close but um I was able to kind of just really manage it and it was just there was I just had too much control and didn't feel like I was riding the line enough to make it as exciting as uh as intriguing as I would have liked it to be. but then take it back in 2024 like was a a great experience and I love racing it in with Rod and my take away from that I guess as a followup to that do you think that there is for pe for people at your level of the sport who are competing for wins and podiums do you do you do you feel strongly that for the entire field there is a like a quote unquote correct way to race where it's like you're up for example you're up front trading blows the whole time or there's like the whole the fading thing going on.

>> It kind of goes into the context of even like um that race and and then also 3 years later doing the race again and getting so much like such great experience out of Western States in 2024 where I'm like, "Oh yeah, I want to come back in 2025 and and I was really motivated on that and things can change like that.

" But a lot of it has to do with so much context of where you're at with training, where you're at with your fitness, where you're at with reality, with what your goals can be, what your goals are, how you do it, whether you get caught up in the race, whether you make mistakes, whether your crew shows up for an aid station or not, um whether your drop bag makes it there.

Like so many factors can change that aren't really relevant to performance and results or anything. Like someone way back can get way more out of them.

I mean, everybody kind of knows that.

like someone in the middle or at the end of the race can definitely potentially get the most out of themselves out of the entire field in a race, but nobody knows about it.

And I think yeah, a lot of people that do ultra like realize I got so much out of myself, but only I and my family and friends kind of know about it.

It's not this famous story of someone winning a race, but uh it it takes a lot of context, I guess, to to see how much like you get out of yourself.

>> Okay.

You you hope that that ends in a result and a performance, but it's not necessarily tied to that at all actually in the in the debate or in the in the category debate around talent versus hard work.

Do you see yourself as someone who is coming to the table with talent or as someone who's coming to the table with hard work? Like which bucket do you see yourself more in?

>> Uh hard work.

>> Really?

Yeah.

>> And even though even though you're undisputed, at least on the American side, the the best in the sport.

>> Yeah. And the fact that kind of that's the mindset I like had just ingrained in me with track and cross country through high school and college.

And yeah, I've been around a lot of talented runners.

Um, and I don't necessarily think speed and talent are what necessarily persevere in ultra.

Um, yeah. So, I think I also am still learning and appreciating the the skills that come through in ultra and how much like that makes me truly love the difference of the sport that many people where I came from in the track world just don't understand and there isn't a grasp like speed and time just translates to whatever distance you want it to be. And um I I think where maybe I get some of my most confidence of that I have like a talent and skill with it is um sometimes kind of looking at how dominant Bruce Pores was and to be able to get one of his records and what I would call like I would call my CarbonX shoe uh equivalent or even maybe not equivalent maybe it's a little better than his shoe that he was running in in the 80s.

But like I wouldn't call the Carbon X1's like a very good representation of what Hoka is capable of doing.

And the technology at the time and just being a carbon shoe, I I I thought it was a bit stiff and uh quite hard on my muscles and stuff to run that far on road. But uh kind of how dominant he was bit like he was and to be able to compete with someone's history that way is interesting.

But then like now with technology, I don't know what any times mean if you measure by time.

And that goes more and more and more to trying to create some sort of black short series that prioritizes winning, pri prioritizes racing, prioritizes the story behind the addition of the race more than anything.

and absolutely throwing out your Coadona race course record because it will never be run on that course ever again because it's 200 and something miles with all sorts of permits that are not going to be strung and it's just stop comparing the times or like what's really cool too is actually the more you dig into potentially Tom Evans run at UTMB probably the more like it's close or better than my run at UTMB and And you could get into super fine details of like actually how close it is, but at the end of the day, like I think it should be appreciated that Tom Evans is the current UTMB champion.

Uh that Bans Buyard has won UTMB, that I won UTMB 2023. And like we can be proud of being a UTMB champion alone.

Like you don't need to say like they have the course record that it's the best ever.

Like Caleb Olsen is the Western States champion and like we should be appreciating him for being the current M1 of the US and like that's our guy of he won the biggest ultra in the US.

Uh and and it's his year to to kind of be the US is M1. I think that's pretty cool.

So I'm I'm going to make a statement and and let me know if I'm I'm on track if you agree or disagree.

We have we have a preoccupation in the sport with times over racing and we should that should be reversed.

We should we like especially the media.

the media should be focusing more on just actual racing, that analysis, that appreciation.

>> And that even brings together even more of the story of like the captivating parts of say a backyard ultra, of a 200 mileer ultra because okay, relative speaking, maybe 200 miles they're moving a bit slower, say 50 mi, they're moving a bit faster, but it doesn't really matter.

Like if it comes down to like ultimately we we want to see people try their hardest and to get the most out of themselves and watching people do that through sport and the common sport of ultra trail like this is what we want to push forward and um if that's coming out then it should be represented at the table of ultra trail running and um there shouldn't be a shun associated with it as long as uh we feel like it's a captivating race that people are getting the most out of themselves.

There's still a spot for it. I I think there's no limit on so far.

There's no like definition of what an ultra is.

So, um yeah, it should all be really interesting if someone wants to put that effort towards going for the 6day world record.

Like that could be the potentially most captivating event we watch in our lifetimes in the sport.

if the right person puts in the right effort and and like you break down what they just did, it would be insane.

Like, yeah, to see that in real time would would be nuts. But how many of us have watched a followed a 6 day race?

Like, um it's one of the oldest events of the Ultra Sport and probably not many of us have tracked it too too much um or been really captivated by it, but why not?

we're seeing like the long format stuff like we love following. We we love dot following and it's an addictive like way to follow a race of not watching every verbatim minute and second like some people want to do that but at the same time like just following a dot and when's the next update and oh I have time to go do this before they get there and then and then what are they still doing okay like it's it's really uh a fun way to spectate.

Okay, couple training questions for you.

Broadly speaking, how would you assess the professionalism of training in our sport versus other endurance sports like cycling, triathlon marathon?

Okay, so marathon's too short.

Triathlon, Olympic triathlon's too short.

Iron Man's interesting because it's 7 to 10 hours.

Um, so you're getting ultra time there.

Cycling in the world tour level, I think, is the pretty much the most cutting edge potentially.

Track is cutting like cutting edge as far as well also pushing the boundaries.

But um at the same time they they set a lot of training uh principles but then like as Americans we probably under appreciate underutilize Nordic skiing, swimming, um like these other sports that are super endurancebased like ultra needs to identify as an endurance-based thing of like potentially here I'll get off topic on something else a little bit because uh it came up in free trial of me saying it shouldn't be an Olympic sport and then >> week later you see Golden Trail pushing Golden Trail stuff being an Olympic sport blah blah blah but like um to me an hour two hours even trail racing just doesn't differentiate enough when you get to be five plus hours it starts to be a different sport and that you're truly like flirting more in like different zones of training that aren't just purely threshold based or hourbased.

it gets to be more relatable to endurance swimming, endurance cycling, ski like ski stuff. Uh so you got to be a lot more there's more strength involved.

But then still when you're doing five to 15 hours, it's still like uptempo fast, you can feel for it. But then say as you get to 20 to 30 hours, I would say you start struggling more with like this idea of 24 hours and going through a night and like it gets really really interesting.

Like should 24 hours be our ideal goal?

Maybe because 24 hours like is one of the most historic kind of measures of time that we have going thousands of years back of just when the sun gets right back to this spot tomorrow.

Like the race stopped, who went the furthest? Like that's kind of interesting.

Like don't make a course with a Yeah. Yeah. Don't make a course with a watch. Just make a course with like who goes the furthest. Uh that's a different format that I don't know of is like at least a famous race that does that.

Um but we need to differentiate our sport as like different qualities need to come through and that like it shouldn't just be uh speed based things cuz then I think you will get the same athletes and blah blah blah but we know in ultra that different athletes actually do end up winning if you keep going a little further.

It's pretty interesting.

And then I also always like how like say the beginning of a race sometimes I go oh well we'll see how everybody finishes because we've already broken up at mile 10 and this is the order of guys it's in and we'll see how it does. So like you you break the pool table and like where does everything go and more times than not um some like say top five will finish in top five and no one changes and is what it is. that part of me has grown to really appreciate just a well if you don't run the next 80 90 miles then it's not an ultra. So, like if you don't want to run the next 80 miles, then you better tap out now because like this is our sport and like like the people that are going to go the next 80 miles are ultra runners and the people that want to call it quits after 10 20 miles and say this is the fastest people like that's it. Then um that's not the same sport and you got to be good at the 100 mile distance of it. Um I I always kind of smile at that point of a race.

Uh if if like you look at who's up there and like oh these are fast strong guys but then we're like well we'll see who's ultra runners and who's not by the end of it.

That's always pretty interesting.

>> A as you because obviously you're self coached.

As you try to get better as an athlete, evolve as an athlete, is there not enough innovation happening in trail for you to pull inspiration there?

Are you pulling a lot of your ideas, your big ideas, your new ideas from the cycling world?

Try >> I don't see innovative ideas coming from trail.

Um, I mean it's hardly coming it technically not coming from track probably cuz that's coming from like a like a lot of stuff catching so much attention is Yakopingo Britzen putting out so much recently and becoming so successful and and dominant on the track that that's like caught so much attention and I would say that's kind of the beginning of double threshold becoming absolutely like overwhelmingly popular amongst track runners.

But um all the Norwegian method is based in Nordic skiing to begin with.

Um culturally like that's what they're behind and that's a much much bigger endurance sport.

You'll see more similarities with cycling.

I think cycling is pretty cutting edge but it's pretty secretive within teams which also kind of I think in the past has created some of the tox like toxic environment to to have the cheating issues I think.

Um yeah. So, um, but yeah, I don't see trail I guess at the end of the day, I don't see trail running too too innovative.

Uh, perhaps you could say the what what was um Steve Johnson, the coach of Tom and Ruth coming out >> coming out with like the muscular I don't know.

I've never done that.

>> You going to use a weighted vest anytime soon?

>> I've never used a weighted vest.

Sometimes I'll have an extra bottle in my pack because I'm going a little further.

Um, but uh yeah, I'd rather do another cold and uh repeat hills with a weighted vest for no significant purpose other than training. Um I think it's better to make a better route. Uh I I think that that's one thing I love about Arresh in France is um the routes that I can do for training are just super aesthetic.

It's always a loop. Yeah.

Like in Flagstaff, I'm repeating climbs like most of the US. Like you you have a good climb you have and you repeat repeat repeat you. Yeah. Yeah.

It's training. You can get fit. You can do everything you need to do to prepare properly.

But at the end of the day, sometimes just massaging the head to have a nice route and look back on it on a map is pretty cool and uh rewarding in a different way that adds layers to enjoying the process and enjoying the sport and just enjoying doing what you're doing.

Uh yeah, I I like doing it as a route and um not necessarily uh just repeating climbs with a weighted vest.

maybe two more ski lift.

>> Especially as you age into your career, how do you feel about pushing year round relative high volume versus having a true offseason where you're crossraining or engaged in a totally different sport?

Um, I I'm definitely leaning more into the offseason part of it and just the fact that like it's made it a lot harder to peak when I want to peak if I'm just pushing the the schedule all the time.

I'm in a debate with Francois whether uh it's possible or uh smart to open my season in March, but for me I'm like, well, if I don't open in March, then when am I going to open and I don't know if I want to wait that long and uh because there's quite a bit of snow in a rush usually or hopefully.

Um so if it's good winter, then uh it'll be a later start to the year.

But um I don't know, part of me is wanting to grind a little bit through uh January, February to to get a race in.

But right now, I'm totally off.

Like so after Worlds I decided to get a PRP injection, which totally reset everything, which it's still October.

Like time's taking by slow. Uh in um I'm starting to jog a little bit again, but um actually mostly I'm just walking uh to and from French class here in Nice.

Then uh I still got to wait longer to kind of get after any sort of proper training.

Uh it's not Yeah, I I'm I'm off off season and not But yeah, many many many people uh can beat me in all sorts of races at the moment.

>> Wait, say say more about these French classes.

What's going on there?

>> So currently um Jessa and I are in Nice, France.

Uh there's nicer weather here in November usually even though today was rainy and cloudy and not so nice but uh still 60s whereas Arash Bour has uh snow and gloomy and uh no races on the calendar really except for St. D Leon.

Have you ever heard of that race?

>> Yeah, of course. Of course.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Didn't win it.

Um >> I know >> he's got to go back.

Um >> that's a brutal race.

>> Yeah. I think Tom Cardan won last year.

He was on a rip of 50 mileers at the end of last year.

>> Amazing.

>> Uh but um yeah, kind of this horrible night race that just is notoriously always ran in sleek snow. Uh 50 mile flat fast race that's uh also Europeans just uh your your your stereotypical strong Europeans are just like no way I'm doing that. So you get kind of different um type of European ultra guys that do that race and um probably would transition really well to US uh ultra stuff that tends to be a bit more uh what what we would call like flatter running um sort of stuff.

Uh but so um nothing to train for. That was the point uh at this point more or less in Europe.

So in Europe things really shut down um because there like essentially the whole continent's a lot further north than I think what a lot of us realize and it's just winter um hits most places and it's not as fun to train.

So um less race opportunities uh locally.

Um so most people try to change sports whether it's two roads and you're kind of stuck in a city or you're in the mountains and you switch to skis.

Most the famous ultra trail guys would probably switch to skis, but there's actually other guys like definitely hammering more like road stuff or jumping into crosscountry season.

Uh Kitty Shides jumped into a cross country season before of like that's that's where you can find some fun something different to do and kind of consider that a change of sports for the winter.

But so I'm not doing anything at the moment in October. It's probably as far as I away from a race in fitness I can be at the moment and trying to come back in a smart slow healthy way uh to be as healthy as possible next year and try to prevent my knee from flaring up from races because I would say this year I've had some successful races but I wouldn't I'm not really happy with how my knees reacting from the races like Keianti I wasn't able to roll Keianti into racing western states it kind of unraveled and I had to reset April May and that was really disappointing not to kind of do the schedule that I had on paper at the beginning of the year.

So October is more just a preventative try to come back healthier. But at the same time like I'm trying to do things and just like sometimes I think a lot of people get this but you you back way off on training and you just still have achy stuff and it's actually not till you get up to a certain amount of volume where like things start to calm down and find more balance.

Um, so hopefully it's theoretical to come back more healthy.

Uh, we'll see what pops up and what I can actually get rid of. Uh, but the idea is looking after the knee for that not to flare up uh the way it's flared up the last year or so. Um, cuz it's just been kind of a continuous little bit of a nagging injury that requires a bit of a reset when it does unravel completely.

Um, but I've been able to train really well on it within training context and it's kind of those long ultra race days that uh it's broken it down a little more than I wanted cuz I actually wanted to roll the world championships into one more race this year.

Um, ideally uh at diagonal deu but uh more or less after five six days it was not confident enough to be able to um say like let's just go forward without creating more problems. So, um, breaks got pushed and and then I think Jess brought up, uh, going to Lelay Templier and then all of a sudden it was like, well, could I switch to Lelay Templier?

But for me personally, I felt like Lelay actually would be more risky than diagonal de Fu just because it was more of a full open stride, which tends to aggravate it more than kind of a grindier run hike race that diagonal deu would be.

Um but more or less it turned down to also like travel and whatnot wasn't going to work um to fit in that.

Uh so concurrently while doing reset um I'm trying to learn French and get better at French and uh taking Alian Fon here and it's just more eye opening of how much further I have to go to actually get to a level of French that I'd be happier with and more fluent.

Well, you must have as good a sense as ever after 10 to 12 years in the sport of even coming off an injury, the the approach that's going to get you to the start line like as fresh and ready to compete, you know, like it's not just a matter of like feeling this pressure to I I think you'd think that, but I mean it kind of even goes to just like maybe people think I have this and that figured out, but um more times than not like most of the time I'm probably just as much scattered as anyone else would be at it.

And it's just trying to pull it all together by the time you got to step up on stage and do a race and uh everybody thinks it was all great and man, he just knows how to do it. But at the same time, you're like, "Whoa, somehow we pulled off another one." Um, sometimes it feels like that. I guess it's like when you're when you're actually behind the scenes, you're like, "Wow, this is a mess.

" But then when you see what the end product of what was produced, you're like, "Whoa, that was so good." But then people behind it are like, "Ah, I don't know.

it doesn't feel clean and it could have been better here, here, and here.

And I'd say it's a feeling more like that rather than uh feeling confident about knowing exactly what I'm doing and how to do it perfectly. And I foresee making plenty more mistakes in the future still.

Here, here's the last question, I promise.

Do you do you get the sense that like is it is it any harder for you in 2025 to win a race than it was in 21?

like do you actually feel in in the in the depth of the field do you feel the sense that this sport is getting more competitive that it's harder to win or has it kind of felt the same since you've been in the sport since 2015 16 >> I think it takes a better version of myself um no I think just the differences like I think undoubtedly the events the the sport's gotten more competitive and more depth uh depth for sure but fortunately for for me like kind of my confidence and what I expect and how to execute has grown similarly.

So I've been able to kind of stay on in front or on top of the wave a bit. Um so it seems like maybe I'm ahead, but really I'm just getting dragged along with everyone else at the same time. I I think that's a good way to look at it rather than um me being ahead.

I I think I'm riding the same wave everybody's on and I've been lucky enough to balance uh a little bit longer.

>> Jim, thanks so much for the time.

Thanks for going nearly two hours with us.

We really appreciate it.

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