Joe Rogan Experience #2065 - David Grusch

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all

day what's up how are you man hey good good thanks for coming here appreciate it yeah yeah no it's it's a pleasure you've been on a whirlwind sort of

tour um I guess we should start from the beginning yeah so first of all lay out to people what your job was with the military and how this all started for

you yeah yeah so I was a Intel officer in the Air Force for 14 years seven active seven Reserve uh then I kind of had like a parallel tract in the

civilian Intel world when I became a reservist um uh and ultimately I got brought back in in Civil Service in a government way at the national GE

spatial intelligence agency couple years ago um at a senior level uh so I was a major in the Air Force and a gs15 at NGA which is like a full bird colonel

equivalent civilian employee uh you know I'm very humbled that I was able to kind of get that kind of job but uh my career mostly I didn't even really think about

this topic UFOs were not on my radar I wasn't really a Believer I was agnostic about it uh most of my career I did a lot of uh you know behind the door

special access program uh technical type activities I was kind of a space intelligence expert a cyber Intel expert and like I said this was not on my radar

at all you know like I would joke with my buddies because I used to handle um the presidential Daily Brief for the national reconnaissance office director in my my military capacity as a

reservist and I was well clear to hundreds and hundreds of compartment at programs and you know the joke was like when are we going to get the readon for

the crazy [ __ ] and that never happened uh and I do remember the the day that I really can remember that I was like huh

what's with this UFO stuff I was uh briefing a senior person uh at the CIA into a couple hundred special access programs uh so I was at the headquarters at the agency

and you know after the indoctrination I was giving to the senior person this person um who worked with Lou alzando uh previously was like yeah have Dave have you ever heard of this

guy Lou alzando he's running some UFO program at the Pentagon um we all think he's crazy and I'm like I I don't know who this guy Lou Alando is and I don't

know of any kind of UFO program so that sounds nuts to me but lo and behold and that was like early 2017 and lo and beholds in December 2017

that New York Times article came up with the uh that named the a tip program and the assap program so Advan Aerospace space weapon systems application program and the Vance AOS space threat

identification program being the other acronym and I was like holy [ __ ] wait that's that guy Lou alzando that I heard about ah you know what I think I have heard of ASAP when I was a lieutenant I

used to read these reports from the defense Intelligence Agency on black holes and stuff and I was like oh that's like stupid why is the diaa um looking into black holes time

warps it just didn't make any sense to me back in like' 0809 when I was a lieutenant and all of a sudden I'm like well maybe there's something to this UFO thing I'm not saying I was like a

Believer either way on the subject but this is this was a topic of concern apparently for the Pentagon and in 2018 I started doing kind of my what I

call my open source literature review like let me spin myself up on this topic watching Chris melon Louis Lando Leslie Keane all these people talk about the

subject and then you know just trying to understand so what is this with UFOs has this been going on for a while the answer is yes like Foo Fighters sightings of weird stuff and Antiquity

Etc which you know we can get into later but uh and so early 2019 comes along and my boss at the national reconnaissance office in kind of my Air Force Major

capacity forwarded me an email from the what became a uh stood up in like I guess it was 2018 which was the unidentified well was aerial now an

anomalous phom task force UAP task force so the UAP task force director sent my boss an email saying hey we're looking for a rep to the task force and as like any good officer I was like well I'll

put it on my performance report hey I was on a task force and you know that would look good and I had being well cleared and also a bachelor's degree in physics uh Masters in intelligence

analysis I'm like you know what I'll figure out what the [ __ ] is it's either going to be weather [ __ ] maybe it's an aviser program maybe it's like uh a US program people are misidentifying on

rare occasions so [ __ ] it I'll I'll go see where the data takes me and you know early 2019 or so I joined the UAP task

force um and then I started you know interviewing Pilots um uh flag officers you know General officer equivalent type Navy

folks and you know they were seeing some really crazy [ __ ] and like a you know event that I talked about previously publicly in a YouTube video on uh the yes Theory Channel you

know I there was this one 30-year senior Navy officer that you know he was going to work sober no predisposition for Fantasy all that kind of stuff because I interviewed the individual for a couple

hours and he saw this you know crazy triangle hover over his car going to work at a certain Naval facility and it like blew his mind he

was serious um the paint on his car turned milky white after the incident so that's to me that sounds like ionizing radiation so

like ultraviolet just like how your your headlights get all foggy over time if you park your car out in the sun same phenomenon just happened you know within

24-hour period and I'm like whoa if this is true and the the oral testimony and you know crazy radar data that I saw when I was on the task force you know

stuff making turns that didn't make any sense well holy [ __ ] what is this stuff then this um anomaly with his paint is this documented is it photographs or yes

I saw photographs it was documented yeah and uh what is there a conventional explanation I mean based on what he

described something to rapidly ionize his paint like that within a a day I don't I can't think of anything off the top of my head in terms of some conventional Aeros based technology and

and this was a certain facility in the continental US this was not overseas so it's not like our adversaries flying some spooky thing um in US airspace so

this thing hovered over his car for how long couple minutes while he was traveling at about 60 M an hour so it was pacing how far away from his

vehicle it's probably a couple hundred feet in altitude it was less than a th000 feet which is also bad because from an airspace perspective Pilots would know this anything under a th000

feet no unless you get special clearance and you only do that over controlled airspace like a military test ranges right people fly low and that kind of thing so is is he on what kind of a

highway is he on a conventional civilian Highway civilian high so anyone could have been on it yes it just happened to be this guy mhm um did he have any other

experiences with this thing no they was this was like a once in a lifetime thing um he kept it to himself for a couple

years but then he umce was his name uh I don't what he's that individual's still on call him Bob but did anybody say to him hey Bob what the [ __ ] happened to your car you know

that's a good question I don't remember if uh people asked him about his car so he took pride in his car so it actually was probably more upsetting to him personally what kind of car was it it was like a Toyota or something so okay

yeah so all of a sudden it's Toyota [ __ ] okay and um so did he have to report this is this something that he did not report it to my knowledge to

anybody it wasn't until he reported it to us about five years later that it uh happened so are th these kind of experiences

something that a lot of these Pilots are embarrassed about discussing or have apprehension about discussing because they could be ridiculed MH yeah a lot of people that are on flight status they don't want to be sent to the psych right

you know there's a whole Aerospace physiology kind of empire in the military uh that you know if you're an operator or you know a guy missile missile key Turner you're on what's they

call personal reliability program if you're taking like you know Tylenol you got to report it if you have a fever you got to report it because you're you know in control nuclear weapons when you're

on duty so right yeah and so this idea of uh being predisposed to Fantasy that's also something that they uh sort of talk to these people about or

try to get a gauge of yeah yeah these are people that are very sober minded I mean this individual was early in the morning going to work not under the influence of anything and uh that person

had a you know similar clearan as mine you know tssci so you know we've gone through Ts that top secret you know s Department of information clearance and you know just like myself I've been

through multiple polygraphs in my career so did this individuals so um does he have any idea or any uh theories about why this thing was following him no

that's what freaked him out the most because it he didn't have any experience in his life like this it like totally blew his mind when he looked out his moon roof and then looked out the side

of his uh car door and saw this 300 foot triangle uh it was like pre-dawn sky but it was darker than the preon sky and it

had this like plasma edges like it was like purplish glowing edges and these three lights that had like these omnidirectional like almost like pool lights you know how there's you can't

really tell where the light source is and it was totally trippy and that and that's just one example of many anecdotal with some evidence you know pilot stories uh and that's what made me

dig deeper and I started you know cultivating my network like has the government studied this before this wasn't just assap and a tip and blue book and all this [ __ ] in the past right

there's this seems serious so like certainly the government has looked at this and you know I went to search for that program and that's what I ended up whistleblowing on right so when you what

was how did you initially discover this program and like what was your first encounter with the information a very

senior individual in the Intel Community came to me when uh I guess I was asking a lot of questions because I'm a very inquisitive guy and it was like hey we I

need to introduce you to somebody uh you know he listed that certain person's academic credentials which were Beyond reproach you know PhD level education

clearance resume was insane I'm like well okay sure I'll I'll talk to this person and and I ended up meeting that person in a you know uh a top secret

facility and you know he started the discussing like hey there was a program I was on it and you know we were

reverse engineering crash material that we've recovered over the decades you know and he's like I'm not joking you know and you know you know we're telling you because you you have you guys have

to report to the deputy secretary of defense in Congress on this matter right and we were we were actively briefing like uh secretary esper deputy secretary

norquist you know um other cabinet level folks right and like there's a there you know there must there's an oversight issue because you're the UAP task force

you should be read into this stuff because like why spend the taxpayers you know dollars looking at stuff that we already have data on right so that's and

that spooked to me and that was like fall of 2019 and you know I don't take a guy's word for it I'm like you know what myself and my trusted colleagues that

had a lot of lot of special accesses like me you know we cultivated our Network and we ultimately interviewed about 40 people or so all the way up to

multistar generals directors of agencies mid-level guys that literally touched it worked inside of it all the the stuff they

brought Intel reports for me to look at you know documents and and a lot of that I could cross verify with other oral sources

that my high level colleagues or I talk to and um you know it checked out especially when I had enough information

on and I know who specifically to ask like hey well I want red into this like I'm on the UAP task force and we went to those I'll call them Gatekeepers for the

lack of a better term and they basically said [ __ ] you to me and my colleagues H so why were these other people willing to discuss this with

you well they determined I didn't need to know I was already cleared at such a high level handling presidential material and

everything it's like Dave needs to know and they felt that coming to us it was a form of a protected disclosure they felt that they weren't really violating

anything because you know we were the I'll call it the investigatory body uh for the Department of Defense and the intelligence community and and con

Congress at the time and they you know you are allowed to you know disclose to a government official in an official capacity and I you know did that and of course I protected those people and and

do know I took those people a lot of them and and they brought them to the intelligence Community Inspector General when I filed my complaint because I don't want people to you know hear it from a secondhand Source you know people

call here say whatever though I have some firsthand knowledge I eventually talk about Someday I'm trying to get it cleared but through through security processes um uh so they could hear it

and hear the details like you know who what when where why where the [ __ ] is who's in control of it what are the cover programs etc etc etc so uh and

that's what deemed my my complaint credible and Urgent in July 2022 uh which is a so the my complaint yes was about reprisal too I filed that

separately eventually to the the Department of Defense Inspector General that's an ongoing investigation but my it was my congressional oversight uh UAP crash retrieval

allegations that was deemed uh credible and Urgent it was sent to the Director of National Intelligence and then it was sent to the Congressional intelligence committees around that time July of 2022

and I eventually went to Congress in December of 2022 and it's a crazy story why I took so long it's [ __ ] nuts um but I provided total about 11 and a half

to 12 hours of uh you know classified testimony to the Congressional staffers and their lawyers for both the house and the Senate and I

I went you know full open kimono I mean I told them as much as I could within my time slot if you will so so this is obviously very compartmentalized where there's only a

few people that know about this information and they're not allowed to discuss it with other people when did this all start I mean is this out of

Roswell is it predate that like when when did they first realize that there are things that cannot be explained or can't be explained through conventional means yeah I mean the program goes back

ways the precise beginning of it can't talk about but I did because security stuff but I did talk about uh publicly the 1933

retrieval and I did that uh tactically and I ran that through the security approval office because I wanted to show that this is much older and it's

International it's not like a us thing I mean this stuff is landing or crashing around the world and unexpected countries have had this happen and that's why I picked that because I

thought that was a interesting case and then of course the you know Pope pus the 12 and the Vatican were involved back channeling it through the OSS which became the CIA later to FDR and that's

how the US knew something weird happened in Italy during well right before World War II but so this is 33 was the first like

documented uh that is the earliest one I can talk about yeah there something that predates that might you could infer that you could infer that yeah so this 331

you said was in Italy yeah magenta so it's a I'm bad at geography I think that's like Lombardi region it's like Northern Northwest Italy and what's the

story behind it so um basically it it it looked like it crashed right it the original shape most likely was like a lenticular disc like craft you know with

like a two dinner plates what does lenticular mean so like two dinner plates you know smooshed together right the hump and there's like a you know like a bubble on topic classic like like

that like that okay but it looks like when it hits the edges broke off so it became this like Bell or Acorn shaped thing um and there was

nothing in it it was like just an artifact you know was no biological remnants if you will um so it's so funny because the Italians were so confused

they actually called up the Germans and they were like is this one yunda like what the hell just crashed in Northern Italy musolini um and this is all publicly available information because

some Italian researchers um found all these original documents that some people were sitting on for years in Italy uh you know they put a gag gag order on the Press Etc and

yeah melini asked the Germans to come down and of course the Germans came down and they were like uh that is not ours

but let's look at it together so that's kind of uh perhaps a tertiary reason the kind of access powers got together I'm not saying that's like the reason but I think the Italians and the Germans were

so intrigued with what they found from like an artifact perspective there was at least some scientific and Military uh collaboration during the war the details

of which uh I'm not I'm not sure of but I know people that know that specific event that are currently still Intel officers within this program uh in

detail but yeah so was there witnesses to the crash or some sort of an understanding that something had crash landed and then they discovered it yeah I I forget the precise

Discovery uh I don't know if it was like uh local police officers or local farmers found in the field something like that I I don't want to speak I'm I assume some of the Italian researchers

might have some fact witnesses that can orally say oh yeah my my great-grandfather found it or something like that but I don't remember what was the scale of this vehicle uh it was

probably like like 20 ft by 10 ft something like that not super huge but kind of big do they think that this was a drone do they think that this was

occupied there was nothing in it so if it if it was uh piloted if you will by some sentience I mean your guess is as

good as mine so H so what happened to that vehicle so we knew where it was being stored at a a particular location um

after the crash and then the military came in and we we grabbed it towards the end of the war you know 1944 1945 because like I said pop Pi the 12th already kind

of let uh FDR know why did the Pope get involved because it's Italy well interesting ly enough there's like a whole history of human intelligence

prior to World War II and uh old money the Vatican the Italian mob um kind of the old country boys did a lot of informal intelligence collection uh for

the US and and there's probably some books you can read on it but it's really interesting you know human intelligence collection wasn't really formalized until the offic office of strategic

Services the OSS which became the CIA in 1947 um you had um you know Paul melon and all these other affluent guys of all

these old money families that basically created the CIA so that's probably the reason why so this thing that was

recovered this was the first documented one that the United States had access to I can't get into if it was a first or not but okay it was an early one very early yeah so it's almost hundred years

ago yes and so they take this thing and then they bring it where yeah I can't I can't get into those can't get into okay so they bring

it somewhere in the United States and uh was the attempt to try to back engineer this thing was the attempt to try to understand what it was yeah I mean first of it obviously it's understanding the

situation right what do we have our hands on and and like I've said in some other videos and stuff you know that we took the Manhattan Project secrecy and overlaid it on this issue because that

secrecy worked well for atomic bomb developments and whatnot and and certainly this whole program in a nutshell if I were to like summarize the

90 plus years of History it is a reverse engineering program to Garner some kind of insight uh and of course not a lot of the things that we've learned from it

are like directly you know ripped off the technology we found but it has inspired other innovations that made its way into other us classified programs over the

year for National Defense reasons you know and it's a myriad of different things so the the UFO folklore is that this is where fiber optics were discovered first yeah I'm not going to

break the seal on anything we've discovered or anything like that and yeah it's place I can't go how limited are you in what you can discuss and what you can't discuss and why why do they

let you discuss any of this yeah so anything sensitive that I want say as it relates to like US Government activity whether it be intelligence stuff military Stuff Etc I have to submit it

through what they call doser Dod office of pre-publication and Security review that is something anybody who's been an Intel officer anybody with like a clearance has to submit that kind of

stuff now obviously if you're writing a book about gardening you don't have to but if you're going to talk about anything military and intelligence related you have to submit so it's kind

of a catch 22 for this office right their own only looking at it from a security perspective they're not vouching for it or anything like that and that's like any author right they

could write a a book about Navy Seals and they're not vouching for the story they're vouching that you didn't say any nasty code words you didn't burn a

specific ongoing classified program and for them I mean I'm not in their udal Loop but certainly it's a catch 22 for them where if they want to redact and they propose a redaction they're like

hey Dave you can't say these sentences you can rewrite it and resubmit you know we can't necessarily tell you uh what agency said to redact it but you're not allowed to say

this uh they would be basically self-certifying there's a there there so in my opinion probably the policy is like if it has to deal with the subject we're not saying anything we're not

proposing any redactions as as long as he's not burning a conventional program uh we kind of have to allow him to exercise his first amendment rights

and I so I think it's like a catch 22 for that office is kind of the long or the short of the long answer so so this is essentially one of the very early

ones 1933 M how many crash retrieval incidents have there been it is double digit uh the specific numbers

I do know however I can't discuss that I know it sounds like oh I'm being koi or whatever but you know this show any other interviews I do right you know foreign intelligence services are

watching and it's like I'm not here to help Russia and China calibrate their intelligence collection like oh Dave said it's this number we missed a couple

[ __ ] let's put it out for the KGB svr and Gru are now going to hit the streets to try to figure out which ones they miss so I'm I'm here to protect National Security and I'm just trying to put all

the general topics out there for public conversation the our government accountable really so because I'm I'm here as a fact witness because we have a

you know a constitutional oversight issue because this program has not been you know reported to Congress in

the appropriate way you know and I can get into a senator I talked to that has died recently so I can you know explain

to you why I'm so sure besides what I read which we can get into the what Intel Port reports I read I did get some stuff cleared um so during my

investigation I'm like you know what I need to talk to somebody at the highest levels right so and this will give you an idea of the kind of people we talk to and this is the only one I'm going to

talk about using their name because they died two years ago so in Spring 2021 I actually flew with a couple colleagues of mine to Las Vegas and I met with

Senator Harry Reid about N9 months before he died and of course he's a private citizen now and I wanted to brief him on the topic and I wanted to get his

kind of thought leadership on it because you know he was a gang of eight member right you know which is the top most cleared senators and Congressman he was the majority leader for God's sakes of

the Senate and I knew you know he helped sponsor the assap program that I mentioned and where they looked at Skinwalker Ranch and some other things and I wanted to understand like what

does Harry Reid actually know like why did he you know give $21 million to DIA and Bigalow Aerospace for this so I'm sitting there in Harry Reid's living

room you know right next to him with some other witnesses that were there with me and he straight up says he's like yeah I knew we had UFO material I

was denied access for decades I tried to get access and then he explains some of his efforts during AET app uh and I was like holy [ __ ] did the former Majority

Leader just say did he just confirm this to me as well you know I was already talking to these amazing highlevel people but I have Harry Reid literally

saying yes we have material and you know he knew it was non-human did Harry Reid have personal experience with this I don't know if he's had any personal stuff in his personal life I mean did he

see it did he witness in terms of seeing the m material himself he said he was denied access for years or decades was

his term and he actually told me on behalf of me he was going so he had like a weekly call with President Joe Biden at the time and he straight up said to

me he was gonna talk to President Biden about this issue literally and then uh what he was telling me about

assap um I was like holy [ __ ] I have like 20 other people that told me this dude so the real history what [ __ ] assap was because I think there's a lot

of people out there that think they were looking at ghosts Skinwalker Ranch yes they went to the ranch as a secondary and tertiary objective but the

real uh reason so like there's a document that came out a couple years ago through Foya from the defense intelligence agency there was this special Access program request that

Harry Reid you might have seen this I think like George nap and Company have reported on this that he sent to the deputy secretary defense William Lynn and it was asking for one of the most

serious saps you can ask for what they call a bigoted waved special Access program so waved means it's limited Congressional reporting um that is a

class of special access programs and bigoted means it's like by name and it's like it was like you could read the foa document it was like you know Harry Reid

James in Hoff uh Lando Etc I'm like why are you asking for the most serious sap to be created for a program that ostensibly is looking at Skinwalker

Ranch and stuff and it doesn't make any sense so what really happened there and uh you know Harry me Harry Reid God bless his soul made this

disclosure um a couple weeks after we met uh in the New Yorker and you can look this up I think it was like a May 200 21 New Yorker story where he says I knew for decades and he made this

disclosure not me so I'm going to say the name of the contractor Harry Reed said this uh you know we knew that lockie Martin had this material for decades I tried to get access and I was

denied and specifically with the locki Martin stuff he was talking about during the assap program and for the people who are on this program I submitted this [ __ ] to doser got this cleared so don't

freak out but I'm telling the truth here um so lockie Martin wanted to divest itself from this material at a specific facility that's known to me

that I provided to the Inspector General um like street address all that [ __ ] right and the idea was if they made a catcher mitt a security catchers mitt

for this [ __ ] at you know most serious sa possible the contractor and the other government customer which was the Central Intelligence Agency um for that

specific locked material and it was [ __ ] that they recovered from like the 50s and stuff and it was like bits and pieces of of of of like Hall structure [ __ ] like that

and um uh so they were going to Tech transfer it and the 21 or 22 million was actually for Bigalow Aerospace to build

out you know facilities in Las Vegas and material analysis equipment and I've SE I have I saw the staff meeting slides I saw the paperwork like there's a paperwork Trail I've seen on this [ __ ]

and I talked to the people involved in this program and you know even Jim laty who ran the program who retired Dia officer PhD in engineering even made

this disclosure in his book skinwalkers at the Pentagon uh page 152 to 153 and he also made a disclosure a couple weeks

ago I think it was on weaponized podcast with Jeremy Corbell and George knp where he's like yeah we had a whole craft and we broke into the hall and we gained

access and he ran that through the same you know security process as I did and so Jim latsky who ran this program is also going on the record that he is aware uh

personally aware of intact vehicles and everything but uh so they gained access what does that mean by what method did they gain access the way he wrote it in

his book I can only infer it sounded Force forcible so through some kind of you know means I don't know if it was like CO2 laser or something I don't actually know how they gained access but

imagine it was uh not permissive access they like broke into the damn thing so this thing is essentially uh sealed and it's some sort of uh what was

the shape of this thing uh he thei didn't disclose the shape on this particular vehicle as far as I the dimensions I don't believe he did in his book uh but I think it's like chapter 11

in his new book or something I glanced at it but he did make that disclosure on video as well and I do encourage both the arrow office which is

the dod's UAP task force successor and Congress to ask Dr James latsky to come in for classified testimony because the disclosure in his one book that he wrote

with colum kellerer George knap and in the second book well the guy saying he has close personal knowledge he needs to go to Congress so I you know I don't

know James latsky but do encourage him to be a fact witness uh but going back to that transfer with locki long story short can't get in all the Nuance

details but basically the CIA uh said [ __ ] you to DIA and locked and it was totally killed so Harry

Reid's request to get the material transferred to the assap program was totally killed because of bureaucracy and kind of fom stuff so they use that

money and then they you know you know they wrote those defense intelligence reference documents the dirds as a lot of people who's familiar with it listening will know about and then they

did look at Skinwalker Ranch because they thought that studying kind of the more woow woo phenomenon aspects of this and I've never been to the ranch

so I've never experienced the ranch for myself but you know obviously I think we both know a bunch of people that have been to the ranch and have seen some trippy stuff or at least alleged that um they thought that they would be able

to gain currency with the with the program you know in in this case CIA to unlock the key for the locked Martin stuff uh which actually I'll tell you

right now it's like so weird to say that but I I ran that [ __ ] through security um you to me it's like an out of body experience to talk about that kind of uh detailed sensitivity uh stuff like that

but but basically they studied the ranch to gain favor to be like hey look at all this stuff for figuring out this paranormal stuff that's somehow connected to the phenomenon on the ranch but ultimately they never gained favor

with the government customer and then the program kind of died a slow death because of a lot of politics in the Pentagon so that's kind of the long but

short of it with the assap program that you know I wanted to make sure the public knew it's not what you think it was there was some other stuff behind the scenes that you know I wanted to

speak truth to power on so this particular vehicle that they had recovered from the 1950s what what was the source of it where did they find it

uh those details uh I did not get cleared so yeah so they have in possession this thing they gain access to this thing and what

do they report once they've gained access to it oh those details I I do not know that's a that's probably a question for Dr latsky um I presume he knows those

details I don't know so this thing is housed somewhere it is yes currently it may still be in the same

location that I know about yes and how many people have access to this and how did they prevent this information from being released I mean you know it goes

back to the compartmentation and kind of the ecosystem of secrecy in this community right you know only a limited amount of people you know at least at the time you know on locked Martin's

side and and locked Martin was complaining basically like look like the secrecy is ridiculous we can't even bring the right Engineers like imagine

you're like a hot engineer hot engineer no hot shot engineer you might be hot too I don't know but that you know you're fresh out of grad school maybe you're like the best PhD electrical

engineer you want to do cool [ __ ] you want to publish an i e you want to like you know climb the ladder corporately you know and that kind of thing

a Loy Martin executive comes to you yeah dude uh you're gonna I can reach into something really crazy but you're never going to publish papers on it you're never going to be able to tell people

what you worked on and it's probably not the most career enhancing but if you want to work on something cool but I can't tell you because it's unacknowledged until you sign this piece of paper non-disclosure

agreement um uh uh you know sorry but here's the Raw Deal and you know a lot of people are like [ __ ] you no and and it's not

like locked Martin could broadcast this to universities like come work for us you'll work on crazy [ __ ] and but that is very akin to a lot of other black

programs in the government that are on ackn knowledge in nature you don't know what you're signing them for until you get bred in and I've you know I've been brief to a lot of that kind of conventional stuff in my career so what

that's one of the the problems that Bob Lazar and I'd love to get your take on Bob Lazar one of one of the things that he talked about was that science can't really operate in a vacuum when you

separate the metallurgists from the propulsions experts from the biological experts like and they're not allowed to communicate with each other and they're not allowed to bring in other experts to have different well that was the

frustration that um I had some friends that I've known my entire career like almost 14 years right I literally know them personally um I had a relationship with them but they ended up you know

spilling the beans where you know look we're we're on the program I'm an engineer for X Y and Z we can't even cross talk across like the cubicles for

God's sakes like I can't I'm looking at Material X doing some um x-ray defraction testing on it which is like shooting a stream of electrons and seeing how how it bends and looking at

the atomic Arrangements I can't even like cross talk that with another aspect of the program this is like ridiculous and and that's kind of their frustration um yeah I knew you're

probably going to ask me about B Bazar I know I fig I figured as much um why did they do that though if everybody was already sworn to secrecy everybody already has ndas it seems the most

effective way of reverse engineering or at least gaining an understanding of how these things are structured well that's exactly how Manhattan was right people working on the fuses for the bomb didn't necessarily know it was going to a

nuclear weapon and so and I've seen this kind of compartmentation is up secrecy in other programs and it is debilitating for progress and honestly as a fidu

former fiduciary of the taxpayer dollars it's not the best modus operandus to do it that way and very few people kind of had that

top down could look across the silos and see what was going on it just became very dysfunctional and they were afraid of people being too cross briefed into the different silos for counter

Espionage Counter Intelligence that you know they were got to remember a bulk of this program was done during the Cold War and you know we were afraid of

Russian spies Soviet moles and so we made it Ultra locked down but to the detriment of National Security and that was one of the crazy things that got me that I wanted to whistleblow on because

I'm like this is so stupid like we should be making more progress on this were there any breaches that you're aware of we foreign agents were able to gain access to materials or an

understanding of what we know so I'll tell you about some Intel documents I read that kind of obliquely answers that question so uh there were

sens of human derve foreign intelligence that I read um so I had access to kind of the atip assap uh classified archives and I was like thumbing through everything and there's some other people

were bringing me documents to evaluate and I'll never forget I had um what it say stolen by the US in

assessment from a certain foreign adversary discussing the US reverse engineering program and I was like and that was actually another like what the

[ __ ] and and so I had an adversary also confirm this program literally because of exfiltrated intelligence and so they certainly had a

limited knowledge at least fact of that the US had a program like this a particular adversary and actually I was like well I want more like it I know who wrote this literally or who got

it right uh on behalf of the United States government so I went to that certain agency through the approved and official way and this is kind of part of the myus reprisals against me uh the

agency was like oh yes we have what you're looking for Dave um you're going to need to sign a one-time reading to something you know come visit us to you

know go to the Vault and read it right you know hard copy M uh but yes we have what you're looking for and ultimately uh from what I was told by friends in higher places my request kind

of went up the flag pole at that agency and all of a sudden the agency ghosted my boss and I for like two months and then when I really press them

hard to gain access because I'm like I have a need to know I need to evaluate this intelligence for [ __ ] Congress and they debriefed me

uh from all my accesses over in that other sister agency and made up some bogus excuse like I shouldn't have been briefed to anything in the first place literally and basically gave me an

administrative M middle finger like person non gra don't ever [ __ ] ask us about that [ __ ] again I and I I I'm sure the person who made the oops that told

me they had what I was looking for probably got admonished and slapped on the wrist cuz I never heard from that person again even though was somebody I actually used to work on occasion with

so uh that was also another way I knew um I was uh you know there was a lot of smoke and fire because I you know had stuff like that happen to me

so this but knowing that our adversaries were aware of this reverse engineering

program are we aware of their reverse engineering programs yeah how which uh countries uh you could you could probably guess and you wouldn't be uh it

won't be too shocking okay but I won't acknowledge what the US may know right so are we aware of numbers in terms of

like at least a rough estimate of how many are available to these other yeah how many uh I can't that's like super there's more than one yeah you could

read into that you could read into that and has anyone made any progress yeah I can't get into if we've made progress if they've made progress

because that's like straight up some national security stuff but like I want the just to be clear I want the US populace to learn a lot of this and this

is why you know another reason why I went public is like I need to call everybody out I'm not here to admonish the entire government mind you but there is an element of the US government and

its clear defense contractor base that you know we have a three branch of government oversight issue like going back to Harry Reid Harry Reid didn't even get access I [ __ ] talked to him

myself to confirm that and he said he was going to go talk to Biden um because I think there needs to be a disclosure plan this goes back to what's currently

in legislation right now that's super [ __ ] important um because 90 some 90 some odd percent of this should should

be open for public discovery public um analysis and Academia this should be like at very least true nuclear programs

such as Nuclear Physics you study in a university nuclear weapons classified because that makes people in the pink misted that's really sensitive we don't

need everybody to know how to do that so I think the stuff that is like legit weapons related stuff that's like straight up national superiority stuff

sure reasonably classifi that but but this these programs we need a change and that's why you saw the Schumer Amendment right and I think you might have read

that on air or something in a previous episode I remember correctly you know Chuck Schumer and I knew about the amendment a couple months before I went public and that's kind of another reason why I did what I did I'm like [ __ ] I'm

like the only guy that kind of has the opportunity to do this I know what's in the shoot so to speak that Chuck Schumer and his staff had with the Schumer M

which is 67 pages of literal we want to disclose and I'm like I have to spike the football by going public because you know I can read the tea leaves on the hill and I think that they were hesitant

to do anything uh without being able to point to something publicly and I'm like I'll be that [ __ ] guy and just send it

um and and then of course a month after I went public I guess I pushed Chuck Schumer over the ledge and I do know he talked to the White House about the

amendment too because not like Chuck Schumer is going to propose groundbreaking legislation like that without talking to the National Security adviser or president like I imagine he

did so and you know so you have the 67 page amendments right it's called the UAP disclosure Act of 2023 known as the Schumer Amendment

co-sponsors were young Gill brand Rubio uh rounds yeah and Young and you know kudos for those Senators for stepping up to the plate because they know this is real I know what

meetings that they've had with certain other individuals that are you know even more credible than myself and so this this act which is like super important

is currently in conference as we speak in Capitol Hill so the amendment is wrapped in something called the fiscal year 2024 National Defense authorization act

so that is the act that funds the mil military basically every year right so it's an amendment within this bill and uh the ACT is really long but

the main meat of it is about halfway through the act it talks about a presidential panel or agency which is nine person and a controlled UAP

disclosure plan that's six years in length conceivably from 2024 to 20130 and this panel and you can read this this is public law anybody can read this

they want a scientist a ists you know you know sociologists Etc it's kind of like who you would want to help craft the plan for the president and this

whole bill was actually built off the JFK records act which I know like they're like well they never released all the records well we put some teeth in the bill some eminent domains some other stuff to you know kind of force

the issue now granted the chief executive the president has the final say the panel can't compel the executive to do it but like I hope the president

does and I support that but so the Senate already passed it they're chill with this this is like we're we're good to go and and but there's push back in

the house right now that is you know pardon my language [ __ ] ridiculous so they're saying for one it's duplicating the dod Arrow's office activities

they're doing good things they're looking at UAP reports trying to figure out what's balloons and air trash and what's weird stuff and of course they are doing an historical review to try to

understand the US's history on this too but the problem is with that agency it it's within the dodn I not above so you have an issue reaching into

Department of energy other you know cabinet level agencies so you need a presidential level panel that can declassify stuff reach into other

agencies and tell you know certain secretaries we're coming in we want your stuff under presidential Authority so what's happening in the house from what I'm told from people on

the hill that are working the issue right now you have the the chair of the house Intel committee Mike Turner who's blocking this uh from Ohio Dayton Ohio

area right Pat weird and right Pat meaning right Patterson Air Force yeah and uh Mike Rogers which I'm kind of surprised uh from Alabama who's the chair of the

house armed services committee so I have a problem with Mike and Mike right now so Mike Turner now remember I went to his Committee in December last year he

wasn't there but his staff and lawyers were and of course he goes on Fox Business after the hearing doesn't use my names like this whistleblower he has

no idea what he's talking about I'm like really tell me Mike have you ever been an Intel officer or served in the military oh wait you've been the a mayor the mayor of Dayton Ohio you were voted

most corrupt person in Congress a couple uh years ago and uh pull up his pack donors who are his biggest donors locked Ron

Boeing okay so uh and first of all if you thought that you needed more information or wanted to talk to me personally why didn't you call me back when I reported to your committee so uh

and furthermore besides blocking the bill I'm sure you're familiar with like representative Tim bersett of Alabama and he's been very outspoken on the issue we may not agree with everything

Tim says about conventional stuff that's you know here no there but you know he's been a champion on the oversight committee and he was you know one of the members that I testified in public under

oath regarding this so like uh and Mike Turner is looking to fund according to staffers I've talked to last two weeks an opposition candidate for Tim's

re-election in 2024 so why is Mike Turner going out of his way to destroy the career of a courageous Tennessee representative on the oversight

committee and why are you blocking a bill and it's not going to cost much couple million a year Max you know for the panel which is like vaporware in US Government speak right um uh if there's

nothing to see here why are Mike Rogers and Mike Turner in the house blocking this bill that is in my opinion the most important legislation for in transpar

parency in American history if there's nothing to see here if I'm [ __ ] crazy multistar generals I talk to are crazy the Intel docs that I read are incorrect they're [ __ ] forgeries or passage

material or something like that good friends of mine that worked on the program are bullshitting me in some consorted uh operation against me and my colleagues that it would be totally

crazy to even conduct that because I took precautions then why don't we just pass this and see what happens and why what do you think the answer to

that is special interests want to keep the genie in the bottle even though the toothpaste is coming out of the tube and I think it's like a death rattle in this industrial complex that doesn't want

change and I'm not here to be some total adversary I I think there needs to be a Truth and Reconciliation process on this issue I'm not here to throw people in

jail I'm not here for big contractors involved to lose money I think this is would be a Boon and I think the leadership in these companies need to think about this where if we're more

open with this you can hire people you can push the subject into undergraduate graduates and post-doctoral programs of uh you know research to study this in an

unclassified just like nuclear physics and this answers a fundamental question uh you know for Humanity are we alone or you know what happens when we

die well I don't know about that but are we alone well the answer is we're not alone and I know that with 100% certainty which as an Intel officer you never say 100%

but all things pointed towards uh based on the people I talked to like Harry Reid and I use him as an example but I talk to the highest of the

high people you could possibly talk to if you catch my drift so MH unless all them are lying and they're covering up something else which I don't even know what it would be at this point because the

phenomenon is real it's been going on for thousands of years people been seeing strange things and not everybody's Mass hallucinating so that's kind of my long diet tribe about what's

happening what do they think these things are the people that you talk to so they specifically the people on the program that handled the material that

were in executive level briefings with Intel Community leaders and other folks over the years last years or so they did use the term extraterrestrial ET or

whatever okay that isn't a possible origin but the Schumer Amendment if you read it it specifically uses non-human intelligence NH hii very deliberately

because we want to catch everything because what if some of this stuff is not ET and they're going to use as an escape Clause like well this stuff that we don't even know if it's extraterrestrial so this doesn't apply

so that's why we wanted to be as broad as possible possible I mean besides ET I mean a lot of it would be my

own uh personal opinion I think we have a couple conceivable buckets and I'm using the work of jacqu

valet other people that have thought deeply on the issue on how the phenomenon has changed since an Antiquity it showed it showed itself in a different way like a good example is

like witches sitting on your chest phenomenon with you know paralysis and medieval and Enlightenment area you know era became this alien abduction

phenomenon uh in the modern area era excuse me and is it is it the the recipient and their analytical overlay cognitively seeing the phenomenon based

on a Moder interpretation you know inside out or is the phenomenon this is like jacqu Val's book passport to mag Magnolia Magnolia I can never pronounce

it right 19 1969 where he talks about the phenomenon seems to like masquerade itself as different stuff over the years but you know we've seen roughly the same

stuff if you look at the Foo Fighters of World War II uh there are Declassified Air Force OSI reports from the 50s people can Google that talk about flying

butane tanks with the same measurements approximately what we saw in the 2004 Tic Tac incident but they called it flying propane or you know butane tanks

in the 50s so uh from a morphology or in the Air Force Intel we call it vrei visual reconnaissance like they basically look the same and we can back

asouth that you know decades if not hundreds of years in the past you know wheels of Ezekiel right they're seeing these like disc type objects right and

unless Ezekiel is uh tripping or this is an allegory or fable in the in the Bible you know let's say the event happens just like the in the viic text you have

the battles the blue people and the uh battles in the sky that sound like nuclear and directed energy weapons like what's going on there I mean maybe that's a Graham Hancock or Randall

Carlson type thing they could they know more than I so there is a real phenomenon that uh origin undetermined but it it's trippy and sometimes it

presents itself in like a non-corporeal form too you know orbs balls of uh you know they don't appear as like

some kind of bipedal hominid like some people have espoused so I think that might be call it interdimensional call it Shadow biome crypto terrest I mean

there's a lot of different theories what are the primary the the primary theories are from another planet or From Another Dimension I think those are the primary I mean there's

certainly Origins that we probably can't conceptualize as humans but because we're just our meat is stuck in 3D and we don't understand and our IQs are only so high so there might be some Origins

that we don't understand in terms of like interdimensional travel yeah I mean obviously you know if you talk to mainstream physicists they say like Crossing Dimensions physically is kind

of a Trope of sci-fi and you know I that's why I used an example and I know some physicists don't like me talking about this Theory but it is a theory you know

like so the holographic principle which was originally conceived to explain how information is encoded on an event horizon of a black hole which is a

distance away from the singularity of a black hole where if you cross it you're [ __ ] because you're going to get rip the shreds or you're not coming back and uh that principle talks about how

information basically from higher dimensional space can be encoded in lower dimensional space and the easiest example is like us casting a

shadow on a sidewalk right three-dimensional object 2D shadow on a sidewalk if you lived in two-dimensional space flat land you'd be tripped out

what the [ __ ] am I seeing but they just don't know that it's really just a person in higher dimensional space so is some of the I mean obviously we have physical material that's in three-dimensional space that we've

recovered but at least maybe some of the phenomenon is really operating in higher spatial dimension ions but is either being projected or quasi projected into

our 3D plus time space which is really trippy to think about but we literally do it on a day-to-day basis like casting Shadows so and that might be some of what we're seeing too but I mean I

presume we know more the people I talked to did not uhouse they had full knowledge either like I said the the normal cism was to say ET or

extraterrestrial could you dumb down this concept of interdimensional like yeah what I know in physics they have theorized that there are multiple

Dimensions other than those that we can currently detect yeah and a lot of that is based off of like L this is my bachelor's degree talking I know there's going to be like some physicists who has

a PHD is like oh da if you [ __ ] that up but right but basically you know from high energy particle collisions and based on the the flection Angles and all the stuff what happens when the

particles collide you know uh you know confirm certain theoretical Frameworks about extras spatial dimensions and you know I can't

speak uh with any real Authority on you know precisely how that works but a lot of um whether it be String Theory or quantum mechanics are based off of

higher spatial dimensions and um you know so that is a mainstream physics uh theoretical framework that's not like

wacky or Looney or anything like that so but that's basically uh a possibility but like I said like we don't really have a good theory if you if you work if

you lived in like 5D space for example it's almost like um remember the ending of the movie Interstellar right where where he's pushing the books he's like in a tesseract you know which is like a

four to 5D structure but he's trying to interact with 3D space and of course he like leaves that space to come back to his daughter many years later at the end of ending of the movie great movie

but um so uh that's a way to conceptualize it in something you may have watched in film it's kind of like the ending of inter Interstellar oh yeah yeah there you go

yeah which is based on what like what theory so the physicist Kip Thorne was the very famous guy he was a big black hole and Wormhole guy I think it's

Caltech or somewhere in California Kip Thorne actually did all the physics equations and everything for Christopher Nolan to make sure that they were conceptualizing and

visualizing uh black holes and wormholes and all that stuff correctly in the movie where you saw like the the halo around the Black Hole uh when they were coming in with the ship and everything that's actually based off of real

physics models that uh Kip Thorne did the calculations for which is pretty cool actually that Christopher Nolan took it to that level you know so this idea that these beings or whatever you

want to call them exist in some other dimension do we have I mean I don't know what you can say about this do we have an

understanding do we have any sort of communication with these beings that give us some sort of an understanding or a map of this yeah the interaction stuff

uh it's a sensitive area um there were multiple very senior people that were concerned about talking about that kind of stuff with me uh I mean that is

certainly as nuts as it sounds that was a real subject of conversation even it sounds like something out of like Star Trek first Contact but it doesn't if you have vehicles yeah so it's it's like

once you realize the phenomenon's real then you realize we've recovered artifacts and you know biologics or you know dead Pilots if you will even though

it's you know kind of creepy to even think about that in your worldview you don't think they were ever you know alive sometimes too right and I

you know I'll leave it at that only because that you know that is something you know the the president in his cabinet needed to disclose this in a controlled manner going back to that

Amendment you know I'm not here to uh you know push the subject in an improper way and that sounds like why don't you just do it Dave like there's a

lot of secondary and tertiary ramifications so economically theologically um our relationship geopolitically with

our allies and adversaries this is not uh rip off the Band-Aid and it's simple there there's there's a lot of complex stuff behind the scenes that need to happen and that's why I'm I'm laying out

all the general stuff that needs to be talked about during the disclosure process but I should not be the one disclosing and it would be highly inappropriate because I care about the

health of the United States and its people and National Security for me to do so so I know there's people that are like oh why doesn't Dave say X Y and Z it's like this is serious this is not

like haha let me tell you a good story I'm a serious guy I ruined my [ __ ] career doing this I was going to make lieutenant colonel in the Air Force in this winter I was on track to be you

know a flag officer equivalent civilian uh in my career uh I spent 18 years in uniform uh if you count the cadet time right uh my whole adult life was serving

as an Intel officer but I wanted to see and I'm 36 right older Millennial I wanted to see change so I'm throwing the flag out and I'm here to hold the

government accountable to do the right thing in a manner that is mature and thorough because I don't begin to say that I know everything all the different

ramifications of saying certain things publicly I don't know all the answers to that and that's why I have to be careful cuz I don't even know I'll call it you know collateral damage effects to use

kind of a military term what may happen of certain things in detail that are revealed that I might not know the ramifications thereof because there's something that I'm not privy to so this

is like a serious this is not like a fun situation this is like a Humanity changing hopefully in a good way but this is like you

know uh quite serious and I you know risked my personal and professional life and I personal life because things have happened to

me uh to be public like this and and you know I swore an oath but you know myself and my generation you know want to see it change can you discuss the things that have happened to you personally

yeah so uh a lot of the stuff I have to be purposely vague because there's an open Inspector General reprisal investigation on my behalf and I'm not here to compromise the investigation by

tipping off my antibodies that may be watching right now but you know when I really started looking into this I mean they came after

me so hard to try to revoke my clearance um ruined my career kicked me

out of my agency and they accused me of everything you could possibly think of with like no evidence uh for

example at first they they wanted to say oh Dave uh you have mental health stuff you didn't report to us we're concerned cuz we we think you might have have an ongoing mental health issue I'm like

what are you talking about I reported that I had PTSD from Afghanistan in my military service several years ago and I sought help for that like I I'm not ashamed of that you

know I'm high functioning autistic and and I didn't know that until my early 30s and and how I processed trauma I didn't really uh understand until many

years later and you know I sought help for that and they were trying to say that like I had some Secret mental health problem that I haven't been

reporting to so I had to go through this whole process three agencies at the same time investigated me for that which I don't even know if that's like legal

they tried to say that I like mishandled classifi all this other stuff it was insane apparently I was under criminal investigation for a couple months and I didn't even know that and nor did they

interview me but they made a uh finding with no evidence they tried to use against me that I had to spend money to basically litigate and maintain my employment my clearance which I did for

the record I maintained my clearance I resigned with full accesses you know I'm just debriefed now but I maintained my top secret

eligibility and I left with my own accord and and so and of course uh they ruined one of my boss's careers in another agency they walked him out of

the building and revoked his clearance and terminated him as a show of force after they were going after me and um I feel sorry for that certain individual and they came after

co-workers of mine I can't get into who what when where and why to protect their identities and their own process but so that's what happened to me professionally and

then what happened to me personally was very disturbing um so I have to be very vague about this because ongoing investigation

but I think you'll understand what I'm saying is uh they showed my wife and I they can touch me at any time two

times and it was very disturbing it was in conjunction with some other people getting a message like that that are to say publicly wellknown some that aren't publicly wellknown

and of course I immediately reported that to you know Counter Intelligence federal law enforcement local to me because it you know wasn't Criminal but it was like a [ __ ] you to me like

and this was right before I filed my whistleblower complaint now I don't know who did this you know and entity who did X Y and Z to my wife and I identity

unknown but it [ __ ] happens and I you know provided that documentation to a couple special agents and I just knew that it was getting

serious and you know as first of all I'm the kind of person I'm I'm from Pittsburgh you know like steel toown I don't take [ __ ] from

people and I decided [ __ ] it I'm going to file an inspector general complaint to protect myself I don't I'm in fear for my safety you know my wife's an Air Force veteran too and you know very

strong individual but you know as a man you don't want to put your family at risk and you know did certain other measures which I won't talk about to

protect myself uh you know physically and I could not believe that that was happening to me no kidding and I

knew I needed to do something internally and then when I saw the writing on the wall uh earlier this year and of course I knew about the Schumer Amendment like I mentioned earlier and I knew I'm like you know I I got to do this for my own

protection because me leaving the federal service because I resigned my Air Force commission I totally threw that career away um to do what I thought

was the right and patriotic thing to whistleblow on this you know and I you know swore my oath 18 years ago and that sounds hokey but I believe you know

Integrity first service for self and Excellence all we do that's the Air Force motto and I'm like I this is not going to help me personally like love

talking to you um I like spreading this message because it's the right and ethical thing to do but this is a nightmare for me I don't want to be public I've served the country in clandestine and covert operations for 14

years I've done technical intelligence for some of the most high-profile takedowns in US history I shouldn't even be here but I am because I want to see

change I saw something unethical and unmoral I want to make sure I hold that element of the government accountable and it was the right [ __ ] thing to do and and I get kind of

emotional about that because you know my career's been service and sacrifice and you know I had two friends of mine die and I've talked about this

publicly before and I you know I'm segueing a little bit but the the suffering of the American intelligence officer is something that for their service of their country and we're not

talking about this subject obviously people don't realize the kind of trauma uh Intel professionals go through so first of all I had a friend six months after I got back from Afghanistan

his name is Captain Dave lion there's a park in Peterson space for bace named after him I remember see us cough and come off the

plane stuff so um you know I saw him die that that [ __ ] me up for a number of years and that's what you know gave me a lot of my my problems that I ended up dealing with but then I had um I

remarried uh and then my best man uh Captain Ben heiney Air Force intelligence officer Air Force Special Operations Command I've known him for years he's my closest friend you know

best man at my wedding and then 28 Days Later uh unfortunately he suffered from depression and it was you know as his best friend he didn't even confide in me

you know I remember chitchatting him to chatting with him on the phone one day about 28 days after he was my best man and I he didn't tell me anything was wrong with him and a few hours later he

walked in his backyard and shot himself and you know I gave his eulogy um at his at his um at his funeral and that really uh you

know really affected me in in and with what Ben experienced uh which I can't get into all the stuff he did obviously but imagine uh being the guy that decides

that that person is bad fire the haire that person is now pink Mist they're dead you just played god let's

go back to you know the wife and kids at the end of your shift and a lot of that I you know I did the same kind of thing I did a lot of stuff overseas involved interrogation

and you know Ops that where you had to decide if a Target is bad enough where you're going to affect their life forever and their family's life forever and uh and that's the silent suffering

of Intel professionals especially during the global war and Terror which was you know 21 years or so and um you know the the trauma and the mental health problems that

people get from being an Intel professional in operational environment people think like special oper ators Pilots Etc you know army marines Ground

Pounders and they certainly have their own trauma but it's this weird Insidious am I in a video game is this real trauma that intelligence professionals and I just wanted to

highlight that during this show because that was just a near and dear to myself uh so people are aware of the service of military intelligence and civilian

intelligence professionals that have to make really tough decision for the country that um affect people's lives on the receiving end you know so was there a concern while you're going

through all this that if you didn't come out with this that we would be stuck in the same sort of loop for a long long period of time and no one would ever have access to this

stuff that they would continue yep yeah and that you nailed it on the head is you know I think my generation once it changed the under 40 generation their parents went to war their old Brothers

went to war we're fighting two dangerous proxy wars right now which is extremely um stupid I know the better way of saying it be quite Frank and you I give

you my own assessment on that if you want but I like we're in this loop we're not progressing in a healthy way uh as a civilization you know it's becoming more

divisive whether you're on the left or the right you know people aren't even looking up all they care about is Tik Tok you know we're creating potentially dangerous artificial intelligence you

know I even saw that in my government service and I think humanity is kind of stuck right now and we need to change and this subject is like one of the

only unifying ontologically shocking but I would think generally unifying topics where where if announced by you know the

Us and other you know major powers that have knowledge in a in a controlled manner that this could change Humanity for the better make us look inside ourselves become

less divisive and Care maybe a little less about superficial things so uh so that's kind of my philosophical

motivation uh to do what I did and uh and you're confronted with one of the biggest mysteries in in human history yeah which is are we alone and it seems

like at least some people have the answer to that 100% I mean the people I talked to certainly did and they had close personal knowledge and the Intel

reports I read you know literally indicated that as well like I talked about earlier uh and it just so it's like this cast system I call it dudes with seci

clearances do not have an embargo on reality so it's a cast system of you know people in government and outside of government in the industrial complex

that run this stuff under little oversight and you know I remember some of the people who denied access they were like you know you know I don't know what you're talking about but if I did why would you have a need to know and

I'm like well why did you have a need to know you're just some multistar general right you're a human being you're a human being you're not better

than me I mean who determines need to know on a humanistic question um it's like basic fact of life why do you why are we classifying fact

of life uh at this day and age in 23 it's insane and the answer to that would be National Security yeah it's obtuse

National Security right so like why we classify stuff it's called executive order 13526 right section 1.4 sections E and F are why we

classify science stuff why we classify nuclear stuff it's like a oneliner it's very vague and and you saying this is these basic facts should be classif ifed

are you saying that this fits in this bill and you know and and you notice the Schumer Amendment if anybody reads it awkwardly calls out the atomic energy

act in 1954 right and they're basically treating this as nuclear secrets because it gives off you know nuclear radiation because

if you look at the ultra vague definition of special nuclear material which is section 51 the atomic energy act in 1954 it says anything that gives

off a sizable amount of atomic energy literally that's what it says well what's sizable and what legal gymnastics are you saying this stuff which is

obviously not a well who knows maybe it is nuclear weapon and you're saying this is a US nuclear secret you're trans classifying it into a nuclear secret

which I understand maybe at first why they did that and not admonishing the hard decisions that presidents and other folks did many years ago when this was

more of an enigma and we wanted to like lock it down figure it out and then see what we're going to do but there's never been a disclosure plan I always ask that like to these super senior people I've

talked to was there a plan any kind of plan at all and they're like no never we tried the muddy to Waters back in there you know tried to put it out there and

test the populace but um you know there was never any cachent plan I mean people think the government is like this fine oiled machine they have plans for everything well I guess

sort of but like it's not I mean look at the war on terrorism we left uh Afghanistan no General officer Mattis Petraeus uh mistal I call them the

failed generals people loud them but really themselves and the Obama Administration Bush Administration ex you know Trump whatever um nobody had a

cogent plan for success and we were fighting people who are much less of an adversary than like our one of our peers or de peers and we couldn't even win that war like what the [ __ ] are we doing

but these protracted endless Wars let's be real it's good for the industrial complex right so and and I'm not like admonishing the whole industrial complex for the record you

know we need National lethality we need weapons to kill bad guys because there's evil people in the world but you got to control you know some of it though well that's a

part of the problem with people that have secrets it's like once you have secrets and part of your identity is the holder of those secrets and part of the

culture of these these industries is that they they are the ones that have the access to that yeah and I saw that in conventional

really black programs I was a part of in my career it was almost like um you got that secret Society Vibe where it's like if you're a career government

servant uh your salary is not that great but knowledge is your currency and what makes you special what rice bow do you control and I remember getting read into some stuff that like it was like the

president and very limited number of people getting read into and I was one of them because I was operating a certain thing for a certain op and oh you're part of the club you know like

only 30 people are cleared or whatever and I'm like the f I don't get off on this [ __ ] it's so weird but like these like lifers and I I hate to you know talk so matter of

fact about it but like it just it's kind of disgusting to me because it's like this like uh it's weird it's just like a weird like nostic cultish thing and you know I Liv that Community for 14 years

of my career and people really do enjoy having information that other people don't have access to I was like I got a secret and like that's why I whistleblow okay so I know this it's real I know

they we're not alone we have stuff no [ __ ] am I going to sit on my ass for 30 40 years I'm an old man I look back like ah I had that secret I knew about it but

I didn't do anything I didn't CH so I couldn't just keep that secret because I thought it was just perverse and wrong that the people don't even at least get

to know the basics it's insane so when it comes to these I'm going to bring it back to these these actual entities yeah do we know or we do have an

understanding of how many of them we're talking about and the variety of them well yeah there is a variety and we have a certain number of of different things

um but the like total numbers of like what's interacting with us on Earth I mean nobody knows that and I mean but there's an understanding of some that they do believe are interacting with us and there's a variety in terms of

there's there's variables yeah I I talked to people who are familiar with uh the biological analysis and everything so we have some idea not a complete picture because it's like you

know you know you're looking at it it's like well I don't even understand the physio physiology at all it's like what the heck it's like way different right so um we have at least description of

this physiology yeah no I was in I was in the room when

uh I got be careful I don't want to uh I was in Washington DC with a very uh number of senior people that work for members of Congress put it that

way um when I was still in government and I brought the people who worked on that stuff to the hill I mean this is why the members were so confident to put

out the Schumer Amendment and stuff and and I was like please explain and um they went into all those details and stuff and I remember you know some some

of the professional staff members were like whoa like like they were like in g-lock right because I mean it like a total World bubble um got burst right there for a

lot of people and so we we have some idea it's not a complete picture I mean it's just like but you're not even bringing in the right the right people like I think about my friend and

colleague uh Dr Gary Nolan which I started the um Soul Foundation nonprofit with I mean he's like you know Nobel level biologist

virologist like he's the guy that you would want on it but he's not on it so I think we can make a lot of progress in our understanding once again if if this

is more broadly studied um in an open environment you aware of the Nix and Jackie gleon story vaguely uh I I stayed

away from euphology because I had these contemporary people that were inside I could check all their credentials where they worked Etc um but I I'm Vaguely Familiar where

what was it like Nixon brought Jackie gleon to some facility and showed him some stuff or something like that yeah supposedly that's the story and it's very it's very hard to determine the origin of the story or whether or not

it's real it came from there's a story about one article that was supposedly published was it Vanity Fair something like that and uh you can't find the

story but Jackie gleon by all accounts was obsessed with UFOs and uh even built a home in Upstate New York that looked

like a flying saucer oh really yeah this this is the house he had this house constructed supposedly after he had this uh meeting with uh Nixon so Nixon

supposedly they were drinking Jackie gleon and ni Nixon are tying one on and Nixon's like you want to see some [ __ ] and uh they fly uh to

wherever this base is and he shows them these Frozen biological entities and this retrieved vehicle and then Jackie

gleon becomes a fanatic obviously that's crazy yeah I I mean not crazy but but uh that's interesting that a president would do that to like an uncleared celebrity friend of his like oh let me

just show you the most sensitive [ __ ] our country has just I don't know it's kind of crazy to me people are obsessed with celebrity you know there's even world leaders you know

kings and queens of you know they've always been obsessed with famous people and Jackie gleon at the time was incredibly famous and also beloved right

yeah so this is my pal and uh I'm drunk you want to see some [ __ ] you know I get it I want to hang out with Nixon if that's how he was like mans is

probably wild I bet he was like that in a lot of ways you know I mean Hunters Thompson famously recalled his uh yeah there's the two of them meeting together uh famously called uh sitting in the

backseat of a limo with Nixon talking about football and he was like God if I didn't think he was a piece of [ __ ] I actually kind of like them oh that's funny we're just talking football yeah

you know um look nobody in that job nobody as a president is going to be loved by everyone and I'm sure Nixon has positive qualities and you know if Jackie gleon liked him I'm a giant

Jackie gleon fan he's probably probably fun to hang out with yeah and if you're drunk and you know you're the president and also so we're talking about the

1970s right so this is a different world you know like even if you tell anybody who the [ __ ] going to believe you you don't have you can't get on Tik Tok like what are you gonna do how you gonna get this information out well exactly and

that's kind of how you know my personal opinion you know how the program was protected right make make it crazy right so if anybody leaks anything um or you

know has unauthorized disclosure yeah people are going to think you're [ __ ] nuts of course yeah yeah um but there

are actual reports that we have biological remains yes oh yes yes how

many it's up there uh as well just like with the they vary there's different kinds do we have an understanding you don't have to answer where of where they

came from nobody I talked to exposed any specific origin to me we may know that but I'm not aware of anything so I don't

know are there reports of some kind of interaction with these things where they're giving information or discussing

the the problems of humanity and possible solutions or explaining why they're here interactions was a sensitive subject that

my uh interview subjects did not want to get into uh I suppose that there's probably detailed documentation of those interactions that goes into a lot of the

stuff you're asking I truly don't even know the answer to a lot of that so but is there discussions amongst these people that there have been these sort

of there was water cooler talk with some people I talked to on the program I love water cooler talk yeah they're like hey bro guess what I overheard in some weird meeting you know right and but that is

the problem with that is it's like secondary information anet unless it like cool well you're coming to the Inspector General or I'm going to at least give them your name uh because

that's what you told me and then obviously I did that so those people who physically were there were on the program did the thing I brought to the

Inspector General um is are there discussions of interactions with live beings uh there was some water cooler talk about that kind of thing but but

you know I I don't even want to get into it because it's like uh there were some details provided to me but it's like it's secondary and I I don't know if that's like the telephone game and I

don't know if it was hyperbolized in any way um you know in the break room so to speak so I just I'm so anal about making sure what I say is accurate I don't you

know I don't know so yeah do we have an understand I mean if if there have been these discussions do we have understanding of when they first took

place yeah some specific events were mentioned to me and I provided that information in a classified setting yeah and how far back did they go pretty far back it's pretty weird

yeah so well one of the stories from Roswell that's fascinating to me is that Eisenhower had the wreckage flown to rright Patterson Air Force Base in two

separate jets in case one of them crashed there has been some public testimony um so General debose there were some

oldtimers that at least uh you know did some videos in like the 90s like I'm I'm briger General Exxon here's what I heard

whatever I mean that's out there in the the open source so yeah yeah and there was always that discussion of Hangar 18 right you ever heard Hanger 18 there's a lot of hangers but that's the

what for whatever reason I think it was maybe a movie was there a movie well you know you know what's funny speaking of uh Senators being denied there's a video in the late 80s of Senator Barry

Goldwater of Goldwater nickol act famed right he was a two star general in the Air Force Reserve and uh like literally this video is like on YouTube it's like hard to find though but um uh Jesse

Michaels on American Alchemy put together I think a short video yesterday and there's like a section in there where he actually has that Goldwater interview but General Goldwater is like

yeah one day I called Curtis lame who's a very famous Air Force General and was like General I heard that there's this room that you you know have UFO material and uh Barry Goldwater exposes in this

interview like yeah and lame got matter matter than hell at me and told me never to [ __ ] ask ask about that again I might have added the f word in there

just for um for fun for fun but uh yeah it's bad was in the military too long um my wife tells me to be careful with my language all the time around my

nephew but but even Barry Goldwater knew that we had UFO material he asked General lame when he was in the Air Force and general lame basically told

him to [ __ ] off and that is a literal interview you can Google so a lot of this like people um disclosing fact of has really

been out in the vernacular for a long time but nobody really cared cuz well everybody was just kind of like desensitized from the whole subject and thought it was wacky and I'm not the

first former government official to confirm that you have Goldwater and all all these other Harry Reid who made the same disclosure to the New Yorker a

month after I talked to him in personel yeah melon has said stuff uh Lou alzando said uh you know he believes we have material on I think it was Tucker

Carlson a couple years ago um so there's certainly been other officials now I'm just trying to spike the football and take it all the way to the end zone here

and and luckily we have a congress that's mostly motivated minus Mike Rogers and Mike Turner you're on you're getting cool in your stockings I'm gonna

make sure your office gets cool and um uh you know they they want change too and they realize it's time for a change and uh presumably you know Chuck

Schumer's talked to you know Jake Sullivan and president uh Biden and you know who's in the white house right now is John podesta he is the uh green energies are

or something like that in the white house but you know John podesta uh um shout out to John podesta in the white house he has an ax to grind on this issue too because remember he

tweeted at the end of Obama's second term you know my biggest failure was not to have Obama release the UFO file and made the same kind of statement with Clinton so

certainly if Mr pesta is listening and the White House you know I'm here to help I you know I hope that you're championing this within the Executive Office of the President and um you know

the other speaking of people like Goldwater who who've made some weird non Seer kind of admissions there's a John stasel interview of Mike Pompeo

the former CIA director about two years ago or so you can find it online where Pompeo talks about the JFK file and like dismisses it or something about like there's no

Boogeyman here but then he he quickly says oh I've seen the UFO file to and we have bigger problems but for at least

the way it was edited John stel didn't even follow up uh at least the way the Final Cut was I'm like dude if I was John stel i' been like what does that mean what do you mean Mike Pompeo you've

seen the UFO file and we have bigger problems and UFO file the way I interpret that is a uh long

existing file or briefing document or something that he had access to so I think I think the former CIA director Mike Pompeo should probably clarify what he said two years ago next uh if anybody

interviews him next ask Mike that question what did he mean yeah yeah we have bigger problems well we certainly have bigger problems in terms of our current existence specifically with what

you were talking about earli the proxy wars and collapse of society as we know it which it seems yeah I mean the I mean I feel for the Ukrainian and the Israeli people you

know I'm not taking any particular side uh but certainly people forget us Aid in these wars what's the like most expensive thing if you studied phases of conflict

it's the Reconstruction cost after the conflict so are we in it for like triple digit billions like the war and Terror um I mean certainly the

Israeli conflict is a great distraction because you know like Russia is very tight with Iran right and personal opinion you know this just my own personal opinion but I you know I'm sure

they commiserated and was like can you start a two-front war because we would like to win in Ukraine and uh this will distract the us because Israel is a

longtime you know Middle East Ally so it's brilliant it's brilliant public opinion I mean the the The Virtue signalers on social media have essentially completely forgotten about

Ukraine you it's it's all about Israel and Palestine yeah you don't even see it and um and I understand you know what the National Security Council determination was that they've discussed publicly where there's kind of like

trying to drain the Russia's you know military capability and annexation of Ukrainian territory because they don't want Russia spheres

sphere of influence to further enter that caucus region and stuff but yeah it's funny like you said it's like you don't even talk about Ukraine it's all about Israel now and the which is a

horrible conflict on both sides like it's just it's unfortunate so without a doubt yeah um it's that was a very interesting statement though that we

have bigger problems so even if we do this seems to be like a a this is such a human question because it's one of the biggest mysteries

obviously you know there's the fmy Paradox where are they right if you you look out and if you look out into the cosmos you've ever gone a clear night and you look out and you realize those are all stars and those stars are all

surrounded by planets and there's literally hundreds of billions of them the Drake equation you can calculate what probable sentient life and I've been an amateur astronomer since I've

been a kid and I've never uh crazy enough I've never seen anything remarkable I've seen some stuff that could have been ball lightning and

some satellite passes that weren't registered uh on line um when you can you could actually check to see if there's going to be like an aridium flare or something like that and that maybe that was a satellite pass maybe

not but I've never seen in my personal life never seen anything weird uh and it's funny you mentioned the fmy Paradox and it's like well where are they and

okay well you know if you're sentient life you're certainly going to have sophisticated cover concealment and deception techniques it goes back to like what jacqu Val's work is where you

know the phenomenon presenting itself in different ways but also I live in the mountains of Colorado right so there is a mountain lion Den about 10 miles from

my house uh in Colorado literally um you know I am there are lower predatory sentients I'm higher PR predatory sentience and I'm using this as a device

or an analogy for nhi and us well I don't on a day-to-day basis I don't care what a mountain line is doing

I may hike in that area area to explore but dayto day I'm afraid of it and I don't care and think about what humans might be unfortunately to some of

these higher sentients where this monkey has a nuke holy [ __ ] keep them in the cage we don't want to go anywhere near them and so people think that there

would be some kind of open contact with some higher sentient it is either visiting Earth or From Another Dimension or whatever the origin is but they probably don't

care they're probably neutral at best and maybe actually fearful of us in some sense or were the progyny of you know personal opinion progyny of some

experiment in the it's almost like living in the Matrix but it's not like an actual simulation it's like we want the simulation to go we don't want to intercede because we want to see what

you know Homo sapiens sapien 2.0 is going to do after the great flood or something like that right yeah yeah that's one of the more fascinating uh ideas is that we're some sort of a

product of genetic engineering I honestly would not be surprised I don't know that to be true but we're so different than everything else is here so different so beyond

different I mean there's not another primate that is even reasonably close I mean if you you there's um speculation

amongst primatologists and there's a not even speculation they believe that chimpanzees in particular have entered into the Stone Age so that they're at the beginning of the Stone Age they're

using tools you know and there's obviously some learn Behavior like there's some footage of orangutans using Spears to hunt fish with oh interesting yeah have you ever seen that no I'm not

it's cool as [ __ ] there's a Rutan that's hanging on a branch over a river or a body of water and he's stabbing at fish

with a spear huh which is incredible I mean they're using tools I mean we know they use tools to extract um um you know termites and the like look at that I

mean oh that's crazy how crazy is that I mean he's clearly hunting MH I mean he's going fishing in Borneo I mean that that

is you know at the very least a distant cousin of us some you know intelligent primate that is figur out a way to use

tools how long would it take an orangutan to become a human being how many millions of years are we talking about of evolution but it seems to be that process has started interesting but why are we so [ __ ] different than

everything else yeah like are we a product of darwinian evolution or what is it punctuated equilibrium is obviously another theory and I'm not a anthropologist by any means you know watched some Netflix episodes but yeah

me too lot of YouTube but yeah we we seem to be oddly advanced advanced and we seem to just possess other skills I

mean it goes back to like the Stargate program right you know with the Declassified by Clinton and sensibly canceled I guess in 96 you know where you had people trained

in remote viewing and and like there was feedback loops to confirm what they saw was real and um you either satellite imagery or human sources where they sketched out a room of where there's hostages and the they got a hostage out

and they're like and this is a real story actually and they're and they're like did you have a source in that room how do you know where all the corridors were and everything I was like no actually uh Pat price uh remote viewed

you and he like what the [ __ ] so there's something going on there and and that's like uh Gary Nolan you know has studied a lot of this stuff very famously he's

pointed out the cod8 panum in the brain right it's this horseshoe shaped thing in the middle of your brain that if uh he's done MRIs and CAT scans and I'm hope I'm not butchering his work Gary

might you know slap me later but uh it lights up people who have those kind of skills they have like an overactive CTI panum in the brain and

it's like okay well is it a transceiver of some sort I'm guessing that's the case is it an emerging property of human beings as we have all exactly and we're seeing just a few human beings that have

this stuff and then if if it is a transceiver where's the information is it in a higher spatial Dimension or how are they extracting how are they able to basically

be um uh non-locality right they're able to like project themselves somehow their Consciousness to a and this is a Declassified example from Stargate a

Russian missile base sketch the crane and the where the silos are what the status is you know satellite comes over takes a picture and it's exactly the way they sketched it

how' they do that like it's certainly real real because there is a feedback loop now there's a lot of charlatans in the psychic space and all that but like at least that government program and

I've talked to you know HOV and people who actually ran that program at SRI for the CIA then Dia in the Army and that seems to men who's uh staring at Goats

right the George Clooney movies the famous movie based on the Stargate program seems to be legit as far as we can measure from a feedback perspective

what was the explanation for the discontinuation of that program oh gosh I'm not a scholar on that that something

Russell tar or halav or one of those guys could explain if it was just like got caught up in the bureaucracy or or what I don't

remember yeah yeah so the idea of that being an emergent property of uh of human beings as we evolve is always been fascinating to me because there's

there's certainly something that goes on with human communication other than um we make sounds that represent objects and physical things and that the other

person interprets those sounds and understands it there's communication between human beings that's oh acoustic communication like the symbol rate if you will is really slow like if you were

able to consciously communicate you know AKA You Know The Hokey term like telepathy right um and it's funny because that's

uh what a lot of people spouse that have had you know alleged contacts right a lot of the people that Dr John Mack at Harvard studied over the years where they felt like they were getting hit

with like a QR code it was like instant knowledge or they heard like somebody speaking to them nonverbally in some way that they couldn't even conceptualize

through you know acoustic communication uh or talk if you will and it's the same thing like um book Proof of Heaven by Dr eban Alexander MD I remember reading when I was in Afghanistan and I was like

this is a crazy experience this medical doctor has necrotizing fat fasciitis of the brain is a near-death experience and he gets this like crazy like the feelings of love other stuff it's a

really interesting book it's like a scientific take on a doctor's own near-death experience but when he came back and somehow the fasciitis didn't

eat away his brain and he was cognitively normal he tried to write down what information or facts of the

universe he learned during his nde and uh he couldn't even put it in English it was like crazy he didn't know how to translate it into our language it was just there was no like adjectives if you

were adverbs Etc that could describe the knowledge that he knew like natively when he had that near-death experience it's a really fascinating book um and he talks about the disease he had and his

uh physiological condition at the time really interesting what was he able to discern learn from that like what was what was the overall message yeah it was like this like the you know there's the

message of Love which that's positive but it was like this interconnectedness everybody is kind of connected in a way that

um they don't really realize I mean you think about this is get really trippy uh lot of thoughts with people who are smarter than me I like to talk to them

about this kind of stuff where if you're say a m you know a higher dimensional sentience right the Act of Creation so Act of Creation for 3D beings is having a baby right it's producing another

three-dimensional object well if you're in five-dimensional space or even I guess four-dimensional physical space what if Act of Creation is creating other conscious realities in other

universes and the Act of Creation is creating the universe where you me Jamie whatever we might be

connected to the same um I'll call it Universal Consciousness or a higher dimensional sentient life force or life

form I know that sounds like really out there but when you think about it um there's a lot of other theologies out there that basically espouse that I have a very good friend of mine who's um PhD

level kind of higher up in the Mormon church and basically the Mormon theology is kind of like that the Mormons say you were once with God or like God but then you were sent down to like a lower plane of existence and

that's literally what I'm talking about right now but just in a secular sense so maybe uh yeah we're all created beings from and this you know this doesn't like

hurt Christian theology whatever it's actually kind of enforcing the fact there's a Creator and we're literally created in the image of a Creator literally and that's kind of what life

really is it's like think about it's like a weird 3D plus time temporal sensory EXP exp erience for a higher dimensional sentience you're here to

experience time in this weird linear fashion and to experience yourself divorc from yourself to gain knowledge and to report back is

maybe what life is and that's just kind of my own personal theology uh as a summation of just uh during Co I was really bored and that's

what I was looking at well I I extrapolate that to the the creation of AI and I think if you think about human beings as something that creates things

um I think ultimately we create a new life well exactly what if higher sentience is creating some kind of artificial intelligence you know call it like a commander data from Star Trek NextGen right MH not even really it's

made in the image of the Creator in some sense but it's not even and that's what might get sent into these like uh long endurance you know missions and of

course you know people are like well why would they you know come here so far uh to crash Etc or are they crashing on purpose do you know that for a fact or

are they crashing by accident and what if they're like um like Von noyman replicating probes right you can Google that but you know what if they're just throwaway which vanum and pro probes are

just like throwaway spacecraft like yeah they're just we send it out we don't really care what the mission success is or they're seeding us or as Jack valet

says it's like you know here's the key can you unlock the cage kind of thing right yeah so and it seems that it would be a long I mean if you think about

biological evolution so long lengthy process and if ultimately that led us to the creation of a technology that's far superior in terms of its capabilities of

understanding and thinking that seems to be what's happening and that's one of the reasons why so many people are concerned about the term artificial intelligence is a very strange term

because it's not artificial it's intelligence it's silicon based that a carbon based right yeah it's just it doesn't have Blood and Tissue and cells but it has something that's Superior it

also has something that's much more scalable right we're we have a very obvious biological limitation in terms of evolution you know if you look at

Evolution we turn back to the arang tans that are fishing they're obviously learning new things and those new properties from those these things we assume will be encoded in their genetics

and in past to their children do you have children no I have three dogs we went the fluffy I'm a fluffy dad the problem is dogs don't learn from well

they do but one of the most bizarre things about children is that they have properties that are clearly

uh it's hard to say right um because my children obviously have the example of my wife and myself and they obviously

see a lot of how we live our life and you know uh discipline and hard work and creativity and all those things but there's also they seem to have gifts

that are they seem to be clearly genetic yeah and uh artistic gifts that just seem extraordinary that are unusual that I had when I was younger that I was an

illustrator I have a a young daughter that's just extraordinarily good at art really you used to illustrate yeah yeah that's what I wanted to do I wanted to be a comic book illustrator oh

interesting interesting yeah um but then I have this other daughter that's super gifted athletically like she can learn things really quickly it's extraordinary

it's and it's weird and and also this drive that she has I had a drive from poverty and from you know a lot of like stuff that was wrong with my childhood

that seemed to be I had this need to prove myself she doesn't have any of those problems but she also has this insane drive that it's weird it's a

weird discipline it's extraordinary that seems to be very different than most kids and I I just think that's an emerging genetic I think there's

something encoded in whatever you are as a human that as you replicate and as you have children they have that they have

some of that yeah you know and I think that is this process this biological evolutionary process with humans but it's there's so much chaos there's so

much I mean you could breed with a dumb person you can find a a hot dumb person and have a baby with them now your kids [ __ ] and then we see that like this obviously some people are just born with

brains that just don't work that well it's just like I'm sure you've met some dull-minded people and you try to talk to them about things and there's no one there right so okay good luck and good

luck with whatever children you have and whatever what what what are they going to have well gen yeah we're genetically encoding artificial intelligence now kind of I think that's where you were going yeah what I'm going with like

these biological limitations that we have it's it's very clear that we're essentially dealing with a Model T as opposed to a Tesla which is just

insanely Superior to these ancient Vehicles yeah we we create technology I've always said this if you looked at the human race if you were some sort of an outside Observer and you stumbled

upon this this thing that occupies this planet this this apex predator of this planet he would say what is this thing doing well it's making technology all the other things that it does it does

all these other things it do all but what do these things generally Mo motivate what do they move towards they move towards the advancement of

technology and Innovation that is a constant aspect of human beings if you trace us back to the earliest civilizations to what we have today things constantly prove unless something

goes horribly wrong unless there's some sort of a natural disaster or some sort of a you know genocide if something doesn't happen to these creatures what

do they do they consistently make better things well that if you extrapolate if you follow that to its natural progression well what is that going to get to well once they've invented

computers and once they've invented devices and once they've invented things that enhance their personal understanding of the world around them which we already have now with phones we already have with the internet we already have with our ability to

communicate with each other we the the newest latest uh Android phones that are coming out will translate natively on your phone in real time in conversation

so you could be speaking Portuguese to me I would hear it in English on a phone call which is [ __ ] wild it's crazy that's like Universal translator Star Trek literally yes literally literally

well that that is a real thing now without having to use Google Translate it's native to the latest Android operating system you you could Auto if you just

sit down and said well where's that going well it's going to something way more sophisticated and way more capable than we are biologically with our

limitations the LI our monkey bodies we are the ancestors or the the the the the people that emerged from that distant cousin that orangutan that's using a

stick to hunt fish we're we're going this direction what would be the most logical way we would completely accelerate that we create something that does what we do but does it way better

yeah it's almost like to permanently Harbor our Consciousness eventually right right and that kind of makes sense it does make sense and there's a sort of understanding of that that leads to this

fear of our demise that everyone you know elon's openly discussed this this Sam Alman and I were talking about it

what open AI is doing what chat GPT 4 versus chat GPT 5 which is going to be insanely Superior well what is chat GPT 15 going to do you know is that going to

be the president of the world you know like what are we going to bypass government and just say you know it's it's obviously like this Administration is incredibly corrupt and flawed and

influenced by the military-industrial complex it's not good for the world it's not good for the environment we need something that is far superior that doesn't have all these motivations what would that be that would be artificial

intelligent creator that we or or creation rather that we use to govern life yeah I mean that sounds nuts but I think that's probably a better solution

than humans with all of our [ __ ] flaws and issues and greed and envy and all the things that we have that would be a better version of it but what are

we saying then are we saying that we're we're programming like empathy into it though you know like probably not probably not which is terrifying

but we will become Obsolete and or we will merge and if we merge it will completely change what we are MH and I think that's very likely what's going to

take place I think the initial stages will be some sort of a merging with technology and then from that merging it will essentially will realize well why are we even [ __ ] around like this

this new thing is so Superior and it doesn't have all the pitfalls it doesn't have all the problems it's not shortsighted it's not going to drain the ocean of fish so that we we can make

sushi it's going to do something it's going to be far more far more aware of all of the different effects of each

individual act and how we affect everything around us and what is net positive and what is net negative and how to avoid all these things I I I

really firmly believe that we are this biological cat pillar that is making a cocoon to create the electronic butterfly and we don't even know what we're doing while we're doing it we're

just doing it and I think materialism is also baked into that one of the main problems with human beings in terms of like the Ridiculousness of our actions we're so materialistic and people are constantly wanting to get the newest

latest greatest thing what's the motivation behind that other than social status well the motivation is that that's what that's what fuels Innovation if you do like if we all just stopped

right now it's hey you know what iPhone 15 is pretty [ __ ] dope we don't need to make new iPhones let's just keep fixing those and just like exist the way we are right now and let's clean up the

air let's clean up the ocean let's clean up the sea and clean up the rivers and clean up the the forest like let's just fix the Earth and then no we don't do that no I want iPhone 16 you know when when is the iPhone going to be able to

communicate completely just with satellites we don't have to worry about cell phone sign it's almost like a drug addiction right they did studies where people receiving in text messages is the dope Rush too so it's like it's almost like an

artificial drug addiction you're fueling because you want the more responsive Tech more integrating with your make easier so you can get your fix quicker

and more efficiently or something like that I don't know right and why well I mean why would [ __ ] staring at a stupid cell phone give you a dopamine Rush well it does it does yeah I'm not a

biologist you get addicted to your goddamn phones and then why would it be that we would innovate and create things like uh Instagram and Tik Tok that are

insanely addictive to the point where you look down and you've spent three hours staring at nothing nonsense like what what why is that well that it

ensures continual use of this device until it lures you into this ultimate integration well it's right well they there's people at well meta I guess now or Facebook you know where they actually have a whole team of scientists on how

to make their apps more addictive right so demons yeah [ __ ] demons yeah I don't I don't use social media I have never tweeted in my life really that's amazing

I mean I have like a I used Facebook back in the day when it first it first came out when I was going to college um but I yeah I don't don't have Instagram

I've never tweeted in my life I I don't intend to because you don't want to get sucked into that mind virus which is like uh people responding you and you have to feel like you have to respond

back I don't even I don't even touch it I'm very aware of those traps so I don't I don't do that I don't I used to but many years ago I stopped interacting with people cuz I just realized like

overall it's negative yeah like there's positive aspects to it it's great for people that like you and that are fans it's great to that you're you're an actual human that you interact occasionally I comment on a post like that's really awesome congratulations

that kind of stuff but then I get the [ __ ] out of there and I don't read any responses and I found that that's the very best way to mitigate all the negative aspects of social media but

then you're also dealing with algorithms you're dealing with things that recognize what makes you more likely to engage and so those things are constantly showing you the things that you engage and uh you know it's not

necessarily even positive it's just it's just whatever you engage with that's what's coming your way whether it could be cool stuff like maybe you're just like really into muscle cars and it shows you a lot of muscle cars or it

could be like murder like I see a lot of murder on Instagram it's [ __ ] crazy yeah I'm a car guy so like my feed is like oh do you ever think about this mod for your Ford Bronco oh those lights

look nice I'm going to wire that [ __ ] up next week you know so I get those too yeah it's bad yeah I have a problem with that I have a a car problem yeah my wife doesn't allow me to have the good stuff

anymore so I have to you know keep it under a certain price well that's good that's good I I'm more actually interested in old stuff than I am in new stuff you like a like rat rod stuff

right well I like muscle cars like very specifically 1960s muscle cars those are my favorite because what they are to me is it's a toy that you could drive yeah

it's like a ride that gives me immense pleasure to just drive around and it's really fun I don't even have to go fast it's just going around in a 1970 chevel

just driving it it just it it's hard to describe for someone who has never experienced it but it's just uh it just so engaging and it's like you're on this

drug yeah he like it's like everything you feel all of it and you're engaging all of these senses yeah it's very tactile very mechanical I yeah I

totally understand that I mean the only kind of old cars I like are like the black Lincoln Lincoln Continental suicide doors from The Matrix I remember seeing that when I was like teen when the Matrix came out I'm like that car is

badass it's like totally I want like to have whatever Morpheus drove you know they art they're essentially art it's it's it's it's functional art like you could it's a piece of art that you could

actually drive around and yeah and it gives you this very bizarre sensation but the point is that like that's not most people most people want the newest

latest greatest thing and this there's a motivation to get the newest latest greatest thing that I think if you just follow that up to its logical conclusion

it's going to create life it's going to create I mean how many films have been made about this you know exmachina and all all these different films that that's right that's what we're going to do we're

going to I mean there's no way we're not going to do that it's it's if if I had a bet on one thing if the human race doesn't get wiped out by a meteor or a

nuclear war we're gonna [ __ ] do that we're going to make a life form 100% And it's going to be almost instantaneously able to figure out all the flaws in its

own personal programming and make a much better version of itself if it if it's sensient if it has the ability to make decisions well I think we're close I mean I think I saw some stuff there's like a open AI Fiasco going on right now

and there's rumor that they might have cracked artificial general intelligence right AGI and that's oh Jesus that's frightening I mean there's like was it um Sam ultman I think we were talking about I think there's like a the board

of open AI there's some Shuffle I was just yeah they just removed him brought him right back well they removed him but then apparently the shareholders like what the [ __ ] are you doing and there

was so much outrage that they're trying to bring him back like instantly so but but Elon had a very good point like what was the motivation behind that and when you think about the implications for

Humanity as a whole cuz this is such an emerging technology that's so overwhelmingly powerful what happened like what's going on like I think this is one of those things where like we

need to know like what was the motivation behind your decision and if it was that he was holding back information about the actual creation of artificial general intelligence that

it's already it's already happened and that he's like hesitant because he's a little Cy in how he talks about stuff when I was talking to him about you

could tell it's like a little bit like he kind of knows yeah that he is at the Forefront of this technology

that worst case scenario replaces us yeah and you know going back to is a program with any kind of empathy Etc depending on if it handles critical I

guess the thing I saw in the government cuz I did a lot of cyber stuff in my career as as AI gets more advanced you

you know you create say offensive cyber tools that literally have a mind of their own and if say theoretically you release that on some Target and you

might not be able to touch that Target again say it's a one time whoop you put it in there well how do you control it it's almost like Skynet in The Terminator I hate to use that analogy

but like that was my fear when I was working at certain agencies working on offensive cyber tools I'm like oh my God this is not good and then of course with

cyber right it's the attribution actor attribution is the biggest thing um how do you know it was you know hypothetically Russia that used the Cyber weapon to attack you it could have

been another actor masquerading as that fore power using tactics techniques procedures uh IP proxy operations to hide where it was coming from so it's

like you have uh non-kinetic fires that can potentially create mutually assured destruction because you could take out critical infrastructure

blow blow up the power grid Etc no radiation but potentially no attribution or con you know confuse the attribution in such that you don't even know who to

go to war with it's like really scary to me so it is scary yeah that's just my own it's already happening with social media I mean think about how many troll Farms there are on social media that are

just stirring up discontent I mean and it's an active program that we know that Russia uses that is trying to undermine democracy and try to keep people fighting with each other and it's been

very effective and if you look at social media it's just [ __ ] chaos it's just people yelling each other particularly Twitter or X you know that's and Facebook it's like a lot of what's going

on one of the studies showed that out of the top 20 Christian sites that are on Facebook 19 of them are run by Russian

Trump Farms so if we know that that on a like relatively rudimentary scale scale if you look at the uh impact of social media versus the impact of artificial

intelligence they're already doing that they're already hiding who's responsible and what's the what's the goal and how to manipulate Consciousness and how to manipulate uh influence and how people

think about things and what what the public opinion on things are it's already very effective um you would imagine that a creation of

artificial intelligence would radically accelerate that oh 100% then I remember the Deep fake stuff was a real problem for my old Community because we're like holy [ __ ] you could really fake some

stuff and you got to develop algorithms to make sure you can analyze oh hey that that is fake because you've seen some of the deep fakes where it's like Obama or Arnold Schwarzenegger yes the Tom Cruz

guy holy [ __ ] that is crazy like you're going to be able to bring actors from the dead back at this point you're going to have like Carrie Grant uh you know doing a musical or whatever you know

whatever you know Bruce Willis who has uh some sort of a degenerate degenerative neurological condition sold his likeness for the ability to make

commercials and all sorts of other things like he's essentially saying he's fading unfortunately and now he will

give this thing which is this property which is Bruce Willis famous and they will be able to create versions of him starring in films oh and certainly if you train an AI model just

like chat GPT you could actually get almost like what they would normally say what their knowledge 100% And it's almost like a having a permanent historian too you could like you know if

you want to talk to Clint Eastwood about his films in the 60s after Clint Eastwood you know passes you know may he live forever but like that would be it'd be crazy it be really interesting but I mean he might actually be able to give

you advice he might be your personal adviser I know that' be cool I mean that's probably one of the things that's going to come out of this but when we think about empathy we we also think

about just human beings and the way we communicate and interact with each other empathy is very important and also compassion and forgiveness all these things are very important qualities

because we recognize that we're very flawed but when you create something that is not flawed yeah then the need for empathy the need for all these

things that we attach to human emotions and human reward systems they will they'll no longer be a significant issue because you're going to be dealing with something that operates on a higher

plane it might be the answer to all that ails us which is so terrifying for us because we recognize that what we derive the joy that we derive from Love from

companionship from Friendship from Community it's like a key component to life on Earth for us but it's also because we recognize that without that

we are the Mongols without that we're Nazi Germany without that you know we're Hamas we're whatever the [ __ ] we are that's that we recognize as being like

evil or dangerous or horrible about humans the when we think about the worst case scenario for human beings we always think about things like the Holocaust we

think about what is the worst the worst acts that human beings are capable of with our current programming and our biological flaws like what are the worst things we could do terrible awful things

well if we don't have those problems if we no longer have Envy we no longer have greed we no longer have evil if we don't have any of those properties they don't

they don't exist anymore we just have this new form of Consciousness that's far superior that's an interesting parallel because you have you know

you're no longer maybe Apex sentience if you have artificial intelligence you know governing certain things right and I think that's also kind of this uh

psychological issue with this UAP issue where we might not be the apex predator we have we may be that mountain lion and uh and we're going to have to be

comfortable knowing that we're going to be vulnerable there's people far superior that may have malevolent intentions maybe not I don't know and uh

almost be humbled the fact that like sorry we're not the smartest of God's creation and and that might be really hard for a lot of people to process and I think that's probably

certainly I would imagine one of the deliberations they must have done years ago like oh we can't disclose because you know people are not going to feel

comfortable in that world view 100% And they're not and then I wonder if these things that we're experiencing are the natural progression of what happens when

you do Seed Life on planet or you do accelerate biological life you do have some sort of a genetic intervention where you take this thing that has

emerging intelligence and you accelerate it and that that thing will in turn with all of its desire for Innovation and creativity and also all of its desire to

control resources and and have power and have influence that it will eventually lead to the creation of what we're

seeing that these things are the next stage of this process and that maybe we're dealing with one form of that next stage but there's another stage that's a

million years more advanced than that that's far superior that doesn't even have a biological limitation in terms of physical space that it exists completely

in some other undetectable realm that is not no longer no longer thinks about biological limitations of life and death and and communication it exists

completely in some other that's what these are and always wonder when there's aash or when there's a body or when there's this that like and

people saying well what if they're so Advanced why are they crashing well hold on what what are which which version are we looking at we're we're not saying there's one thing that's visiting us if

there's one thing that's visiting us and we know where this one thing is we could say oh well that thing it deals with a completely different solar system that's not as vulnerable it doesn't have asteroid clouds it doesn't have all these different things where it's like

it doesn't have a a planet that has super volcanoes maybe life evolved in a more stable environment and it allowed it to get to a far greater technological

level but not the ultimate yeah we might be testing the extent of their adaptability and like I said are they crashing by accident right Mission

failure or on purpose right so and then of course with the far distances and everything I mean if they're traveling here through some kind of space FaceTime

metric engineering construct you know um uh the distances are not as vast as you think right they could be going through some kind of you know traversible Wormhole or something like that where it's like a walk down the street for them it's not you know a thousand Lighty

years well just think about communication just are communication used to be you had to get in front of someone and you had to talk to them so you had to know their language you had to either non-verbal or verbal

communication you had to figure out a way to say things to them that's no longer the case obviously with this new Android operating system it translates but also the fact that you could have a

[ __ ] FaceTime call with someone in Japan right now and you instantaneously can communicate back and forth which is insane that's a vast distance but for us

it's like stupid it's like yeah easy vast distance and instantaneous yeah I mean uh I was just in Scotland and I was FaceTiming my daughter back home yeah

[ __ ] crazy you're 9 hours by plane and you're having instantaneous communication which is wild [ __ ] but that's just that's

[ __ ] that that that's like pong you know that's uh that's a morse code that's like it's very primitive in terms of what if you physically can be in

these places instantaneous yeah and why why would we assume that that's not eventually going to be on the menu yeah it's just like the conventional propulsion stuff for not using an Elon

Musk Starship to get here it's like they doing something else you talked to someone from the 1800s and you said you're going to go to Nevada Jesus Christ you know how far that is on a wagon you know that's months man but no

you fly to Vegas it's two hours it's [ __ ] easy you know like we know that now so why would we assume that there's a limitation to that advancement I don't

think there is yeah and of course A friend of mine Eric Weinstein certainly spouses we don't even have the right theoretical Frameworks right now you know he get he he has own geometric

Unity Theory and he's way smarter than I he's too smart but uh he's confusing yeah he starts talking to you like it's so funny if he calls me I'm like you got to call me in the morning after my 24

ounce Monster Energy drink or or I can't even keep up man it's like uh yeah he's he's on another level he has some his he's got some unique theories himself about where all this stuff is coming

from and uh it's it's all very very very interesting and intriguing but also makes sense all of it makes sense including being visited you know I had this conversation with Neil degrass

Tyson he's like why would they be interested in us I'm like what the [ __ ] are you talking about we're super interested yeah Neil I mean obviously he's a fine science Communicator kind of the success of successor of kind of

the uh Carl s kind of I think Carl was a little bit more openminded yeah I like Carl better by I'm more of a fan wish he was still alive I love to smoke weed with that guy he was really into weed oh

really yeah really really into I remember my my aunt gave me Cosmos by Carl Sean when I was in Middle School and it was that book was from the 80s but that book tripped me out and I was

like I want to study science and I read it was Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking and I read those two books when I was like an eth grade and I was like this is trippy I want to study astronomy

this is insane but I ultimately used kind of my technical background to be a spook you know for the government but uh I still observe I have a big telescope and I live like super dark skies in

Colorado and it's still that Boyhood fascination of the cosmos now uh ironically I found out about something else that kind of confirms that the cosmos is uh not lifeless and you know

God paints with a broad brush as like the Vatican has exposed a couple years ago when they said this is okay with their theology I have a theory that the universe itself is God I think that's like what I was

talking about with the you know multi-dimensional Creator creating universes yeah I think we have a very limited idea of when we say God when God created the heavens and like right right

but what is what what are we saying I think it's the universe itself I think it's one thing and that this one thing

it seeks to create these things that continually push the envelopes and may be Gods themselves eventually I think if you extrapolate from our ability versus

the ability of an amoeba and you continue to move that along what does that do well it's going to be able to create universes there's already been like theoretical papers that have been

written about the creation of other things like black holes other things like a universe other like what what is involved in the creation of a universe

what is involved in the Big Bang can that be replicated well not now but if AI becomes sensient and AI eventually

makes far greater versions of itself if it keeps doing that like what what what are the limits of its potential create creates The Matrix L create yeah literally literally creates a simulated

environment that's indect IND discernible you you can't tell the difference between that and regular life well maybe because there is no difference maybe that is what I mean that's the theory of simulation theater

yeah simulation Theory yeah familiar and that that is a possibility cuz uh the universe seems like a little too perfect it's a little strange very created to me

so just like we're in the goldilock zone perfect temperature like it's how about the Big Bang itself like what what happened

something smaller than the head of a pin for for no known reason becomes everything yeah okay and what's the universe expanding into it's like a

quantum foam or whatever the heck the latest theory is that's like Beyond me and then it perhaps just retracts back down to that infinitely small thing and then expands again and that this is an

endless cycle and that we're just so limited because of our biological limitations or our our life and death is such a a small little tiny blip it's so

minuscule in terms of just the overall known life of the universe and then you have the James Webb Telescope that's you know there's people that question the

actual length of time that occurred between the Big Bang now that maybe it might be far longer and there's people like Brian keing that say that's not that's not correct it's just a a lack of

understanding of what we understand currently about the creation of galaxies and these things yeah because I mean obviously the length of the the age of the universe keeps on getting older and older and a lot of that's because of the the Doppler fit Doppler shift right the

red shift as the galaxies are accelerating away um you know we can calculate what the what what their origin Point probably was and how long it took for

them to speed up like that right and only based on our current understanding yes which is obviously at least fairly Limited in terms of what's its potential is well yeah like we still don't quite

understand the origin of the Moon the Moon is at the right location that causes solar and lunar eclipses it's like the right apparent uh size to block out the sun it's like super weird same

thing with like Mars we're not sure like what happened there where Mars you know had some probable life on it either a protoplanet hit or there was some kind

of impact that vaporized stuff and like who knows yeah who knows and this is just this little tiny neighborhood that we're looking at it's like we are in our

backyard looking for evidence of like life in Africa you know I mean like you're not going to figure it out here there's so there's just we're just looking at such

a small scale in terms of what we could potentially discover or potentially observe yeah yeah I I often wonder you know when we're seeing especially with

the idea of uaps UFO crafts if we're we're seeing a version of what we will become or something like us becomes if given enough time well that that is I

mean there's like a Dr Mike Masters at Montana State he literally postulates you know he says Time Travelers uh we could debate time travel but like he thinks it might be like a advanced form

of homo sapien is what we're seeing coming back yeah like a breakaway civilization we coming back to see an older version of our that was left on Earth or something like well the way we would visit like North Sentinel Island

and and visit those people that are trapped on that island that are uncontacted yeah yeah exactly and then a lot of uh you know there's also like cargo cult religions and stuff you know

the South Pacific in World War II they they worshiped the P-51 and stuff like they thought those were UFOs but really they were just us you know so and I think we were probably alien to them I

mean comes I mean just look at how Cortez looked uh to the the people that you know had no idea that people could ride horses like what the [ __ ] is going on this guys are riding horses yeah like

these are Gods these white guys coming in what the insane they come on a ship in the ocean and they ride horses yeah yeah exactly um yeah it's all based on

our limited understanding and for someone whether it's the federal government or whether it's military contractors for someone to have key

elements that could give us a better understanding of this whole picture it's it's really inexcusable to

not relay that to all of humanity so this is too much information to be secret it's too important if it is real

it's too important for someone to have access to just because they have power and money and influence yeah it seems insane I mean that's the whole primer

for what I did I mean it's I I you know I think I'm a pretty [ __ ] ethical person I just could not live with myself if I didn't try to like make a difference even though it was very uncomfortable personal privacy and then

you know professional and personal health was at risk you know so it's just it also seems like the public understanding and appreciation of these things particularly after the 2017

article in New York Times has changed there's been a shift whereas before if you would talk about UFOs or the idea of extra life you are automatically lumped into this group of people that believes

in Bigfoot you know it's like you're in you're in the lock Nest monster you're kind of a loon who likes Fringe things cuz probably got problems in your own life you're not addressing and so you're distracted it's like a a gambler or

something like that you're just like distracting yourself with this craziness in order to ignore the the reality of existence itself which is so complicated and difficult to manage and then I think

that if we had a better understanding of the the overall scale of the potential of life in the universe based on what we

know like physical evidence undeniable physical evidence that shows us that we're not alone that would be a massive

change in just the overall shift of Consciousness on Earth if we could understand that these territorial disputes that we have which are almost

always over resources or over land or over religion and ideologies if we could understand that these are nonsense in the vast scope of the universe itself

and this is the uh the what is that effect that the people that get into the space station have and astronauts overview effect overview effect yes William Shatner had that when

he went up in the uh blue origin yeah thing I'm sure I'm sure everybody has it I mean I'm sure it's just like you go like oh my God like what are we doing like this is one and that's how I felt I mean like after I found all this stuff I

could have continued my career you know made lieutenant colonel here this winter made Senior executive service in a year or two did National Security stuff but I'm like sitting in my office and I'm

like there's better things for me to care about than Russian troop movements like we're not alone right this is insane like I I have to like blow the

whistle on this this is insane cuz certainly the people we talk to are not lying and the documents side meticulously went through they were not forgeries they were not deception

material so it's just like I have to do something I'm sure you've seen those uh Freedom of Information Act disclosure uh papers from the CIA from God it was like

the 1950s where they're detailing all the various forms of life and that that we know are currently that currently exist and you remember that Jamie we

pulled up that document do you think you can find it Jamie will find it but this like 1950 something where they were discussing these things interesting yeah I'm not sure which ones you're talking about I'd have to see them so it's

pretty weird stuff because like if they knew about this in the 1950s like how do they know well there was like CIA docks about Consciousness and like weird remote viewing stuff I mean besides the

Stargate program uh that were released in the foyer reading room on cia's website too that are pretty trippy where like wow CIA is looking into some really interesting stuff I mean they're

hardcore Intel agency what's going on there but it makes sense that they would kind of have to find out if that's [ __ ] or not like you can't ignore that if you're really doing your job if your job is intelligence like

okay like let's look at this or it's an aspect of the phenomenon because it's like a reach out from the crash retrieval program like hey I need you to look into some weird stuff because it might be the key unlock for something

that we got in a warehouse you know so whoa yeah yeah so as it stands right now what what's the future for this stuff

what's the future for these disclosures and and what what are the bottlenecks well I mean certainly from the governmental process you know as long as the house doesn't kill this Schumer

Amendment and I'm you know that's why I'm discussing it here with you because if they they don't pass it it's going to be the greatest setback to humankind in US history

literally that so the presidential panel gets impanel about 90 days or so after the passage of the bill so by by Christmas as long as it doesn't get

killed we be in the National Defense authorization act panel will be formed um say February March then they have a

300 day process to develop a initial plan for the president and I don't know if uh Chuck Schumer and his staff are being kind of uh crafty or whatever but

the 300 days if you actually do it out it's like the election so so I don't know if they want to make it an election issue which certainly if this act doesn't pass I think it needs to be an election issue because the senior

executive needs to rule on this if Congress can't get their [ __ ] together to be quite honest and we have a a plan out to 2030 where this stuff starts getting rolled out Knock on Wood Perfect

Storm things could get delayed but then in parallel and that's kind of why I helped found the soul foundation with Gary Nolan and Dr Peter skafish who's an

anthropologist uh as well is we wanted to figure out the stem Outreach we wanted to figure out the public policy National policy to advise the US and its

allies on this issue you know and we're happy like I said I'm not here to slap the government in its entirety and admonish everybody like I think there needs to be a Truth and Reconciliation

process but I think our foundation we want to be like okay well bring us in as a think tank if you know based on my experience and experience of my colleagues like you have an issue with X

well let's figure out how to roll this out and how to you know incentivize the National Science Foundation to look in this make this like you know it's dual use right you

might um uh develop uh a unique uh scientific uh process that actually works well with nanobiology or something like that but also has dual use with

UAP so there's parallel tracks I mean there's public Discovery there's like the Galileo project with Avy lobe right that they're trying to uh on their own collect techno signatures uh which is I

applaud that I mean obviously the government knows a lot about that but we don't want to obviously rely on the US government to do all the work for us and also to be honest so I think having a

parallel track and you know Galileo project Soul Foundation Ryan Graves has his own uh Foundation as well for pilots and people who have seen unique things

to provide that data to people so I think you got to have those dual tracks and you know hopefully we can create a tsunami event where the US government its allies and maybe our

adversaries uh but really if the US government doesn't get their uh house in order here I mean you could have a uncontrolled disclosure events such that

either maybe the non-human intelligence is like yeah let's do it or what if one of our adversaries decides to disclose and they become the Messiah figure on

this and we lose sovereignty or national Supremacy in in that regard from an open and honest Civil Society perspective so I but I think the governments were getting close I think

um as longly closer than we've ever been before just the fact that they brought you in to have these conversations yeah no I'm I'm still

advising the US government on this and and and I'm trying to carefully message this put all the broad things on the table and I'm not trying to be koi I'm not trying to be Conceal anything but

it's like there real National Security and collateral damage uh with just releasing this willy-nilly and I'm just trying to get the government to get a plan together here and and just be open

and honest with the people of the world really so and there's still the bottleneck with these military contractors that allegedly have access to these things yeah and like to to

those guys and I know some of them um and the individuals that hold the keys like this is a boon like this is don't look at it like um you're going to

lose money you this is a recruiting opportunity yes you're going to have to let other people in the cookie jar that's how a fair and free Society works and they should be able to compete for work and because that was one of the

main I talked to some individuals that were in an informal session for a previous administration on should we disclose or not for a c former president and um really insightful what they told

me and and one of the biggest impasses to disclosure wasn't the ontological shock from a socieconomic or theological perspective it was well there's some white color crime we violated the

federal acquisition regulations we Soul sourced this work to some big companies for decades contractors are going to litigate this to the Supreme Court saying they lost billions of projected

income because they didn't get the bid on the work and it's going to be this like liability disaster for the US government and and the problem with that is is like I understand that but like

that's why you need to have a Truth and Reconciliation process it's almost like a The Truth and Reconciliation Commission and postapartheid South Africa where people who committed like murder came in

and was like this is what happened here you go and you know they don't get convicted of those crimes and I'm not say I mean people who've committed murder as it relates to the subject okay we should probably hold them accountable

but for some of this stuff there needs to be a process where we kind of mitigate some of those uh unfortunate legal issues but that was one of the

main issues a certain group for a reasonably recent Administration came up with and advised that President hey look there's going to be a lot of supreme court stuff let's

not be that be that guy so it's like the like that's the barrier that's the reason come on well so ridiculous it makes sense though that they would think that way because I do believe that

lawsuits would emerge from something like that oh certainly and it it's and also it's like uh the government admitting that we can't protect its citizenry you know uh you know these non

human intelligence you know want to do something to you sorry we don't have any countermeasures to that you know it's like this you know there's a social contract between the citizens and the government we can protect you Etc and

like in this case it's like it's an enigma but I think this is almost like uh you remember like after 911 I was in high school and 911 happened and you know people were afraid of dirty bombs terrorists we didn't we didn't know what

was going to happen next we lived in fear but like you know we banded together in the presence of fear and hension and unknowing what the world was going to be and we made made it through

it now I mean that's a course analogy to this but I uh people just have to think in that mindset like it's going to be a little scary it's not going to be like Kumbaya let's let's uh move the [ __ ] to the

masoni and check it out it's going to be there's some you know awkward and uh things we're going to have to address sociologically I guess are you

optimistic about how all this lays out I am I mean it's kind of like when I was testifying in the public hearing oddly bipartisan in a good way I had AOC

and Matt Gates like agreeing on something and they were like smiling at each other like okay crazy this is crazy you know I'm like look at there's AOC there's Matt Gates there's Timber shett I mean there's like people uh Garcia

like people that wouldn't see eye to eye on most subject it's such a human issue because they they want to know the truth too and I don't think the the leaders in Congress want to be told that they're second class citizens I mean a lot of

presid presidents weren't brief to everything some presidents knew a lot more than others and I have a pretty good beat on that and it's like wait the chief executive that also forms foreign

policy you don't tell them about a ostensibly a foreign element so how do they as chief of state how do they form foreign policy when you don't fully brief them on a foreign element it's

like classifying the existence of Russia right right so you're actually you know non-constitutional by not allowing our commander-in-chief all

information sometimes you know and I don't know what Harry Reid talked to Joe Biden I mean it was certainly the substance that I I mentioned here uh and

I I hope that Joe Biden has been briefed on the program so to speak uh at least I'm I'm giving him an oral unclassified briefing right now I guess if he hasn't been in you know I'm happy to you know

talk to Jake Sullivan or ail Haynes and ail Haynes if she's not briefed like she's supposed to be briefed all intelligence in the country it's 50 US

code section 3024 you the director now National Intelligence has allowed everything from all federal agencies that's Intel related Well ma'am if you don't know what I'm talking about we

have a problem because you're not being briefed by CIA director and some other agencies so well listen David I really appreciate

what you've done um I think you've done a great service to humanity just by taking a stand and and communicating

these ideas and and letting people know how much of this is real and you know you've opened up a world of discourse that probably would not have existed if

you hadn't done that thanks yeah I mean this was not easy I'm sure so I appreciate it thank you very much for being here and uh good luck in the future thank you thank you all right bye

everybody [Music] [Applause] [Music]