joma tech on quitting his 2M youtube channel, going back to corporate & getting married

your role model in life,

Rick Rubin.

And and they would give me like a lot of

money for it.

Wow.

You know, I I guess I'll just say it's

it was like to make it

or something like that. So, I got

depressed and then um yeah, things were

hard. So, I got recently married to a an

amazing an amazing woman.

This is my first um in-person podcast, I

think.

Oh ever?

I think so. Oh,

like I've done interviews where I

interviewed other people, but I don't

think I've ever been on someone else's

podcast.

Oh, that's amazing. Well, is it scarier

to do it in person?

I think so. Well, to be honest, like the

the two podcasts that I did, like they

weren't Oh, man. I guess they weren't

that fun,

you know? And it's not because I wasn't

in person. I think I just didn't didn't

really vibe the people. But, uh,

anyways.

Well, I hope it's more fun today. I feel

like it'll be a little more chill.

course. Course

we'll see.

Do you want peaches?

I had peaches. I kind of wanted to get

Yeah. Jo went to the farmers market last

week and then he bought peaches.

Yeah. Yeah. It's It's really good. So So

this farmers market I go to, it's like I

go to every every week Saturday.

Yeah.

But I I just recently discovered like

how good the peaches are, but they're

really expensive.

Wait, how expensive are they?

So So there was this one time I bought

three.

It's $10. I don't know if that's

expensive or not. Yeah.

What? Farmers market.

But they're pretty big though. They're

like this big. Is it like organic? Not

It should be. I hope so. But But it's

really tasty.

You brought me one. That's

No, we should eat it for intermission.

Oh, true. Okay.

Yeah, cuz we'll be doing a game later.

Sounds good. Sounds good.

Yeah. Exciting. Okay. Welcome back,

Sergio Shotties, to another episode of

Soju with Sarah. Today's a special

episode. Hello,

JA.

My name is Joma.

Joma Techch.

Oh, yeah. Wait, do you do you go by or

do you get recognized more as Joma

Techch or just JMA?

Oh, they usually say Joma Techch.

Oh really?

Yeah. Yeah. So, even though my name is

Joma, I guess for them is they want to

make sure. So, it's like, "Are you JMA

Tech?"

You know, rather than something else, I

guess. But it's kind of like um for

example, if I met you, I wouldn't be

like, "Hey, Sarah." I'll be like, "Oh,

Sarah Pan."

You know, cuz the full thing.

I was surprised when I first met you.

And you said that you go by JMA in real

life, too. Oh yeah,

cuz I assumed JMO was your stage name,

but

it actually is like a nickname that you

use.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that nickname

actually um I got it when I was in like

internship like during internship at

LinkedIn cuz my Unix name was JMA,

right? Cuz the first two letters of my

first name, Jonathan,

it was Joe and then Ma and that's it.

Yeah. So then people just started

calling me Joma and then it just stuck,

you know.

But I've only ever known you as JMA. And

Joe and I met four years ago, something

like that. Yeah.

Like when I first moved back from the

pandemic to New York City. And Were you

away for the pandemic? Were you

No, I was uh I I moved during the

pandemic, like at the end of it, like

right before I got my vaccine. I

remember.

Oh perfect.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I met you then and

then I've known you through like many

phases of both of our lives. So, it's

really cool to see that you're thriving

right now.

That's crazy.

But for anyone who doesn't know JMA or

needs a quick refresher, I wrote

I got an intro.

I wrote a really nice intro cuz I was

like, I have so much to say. You're

really great. Like you inspired me in a

lot of ways, so I really wanted to gas

you up for this one.

Oh my god, I'm nervous.

This is my first like very formal like

intro to someone.

You don't you don't need to be I'm just

chill. I'm a chill guy.

Droma is a multi-talented director,

creator, engineer, film artist.

I don't know. I'm embarrassed.

Um he's one of the funniest people I

know. And I say that not just cuz I'm a

friend, but I think it's actually true.

Some may know him as his iconic

characters in the JMA universe. Eric

Wang, Jojo Ma.

Yes. Yes.

Doan.

Yes. I played him once. Yeah.

Or even JMA in New York City.

I'm Wait, I'm surprised you you went

pretty deep like like Doan was literally

just one video. Did you catch or

something?

No. I'm glad you said that. I just went

to your most popular video. I clicked in

and I found the characters names. Quan,

but that's like one of my least popular

videos. Wow, I'm so surprised.

Oh, maybe I just clicked into random

ones. Maybe I'm like a secret super fan

and I'm like revealing myself right now.

No, no, no. I I tried to pick some

unique ones.

Yeah, I I mean you missed like Jacqu

Laqua. You missed

Oh, sorry. Add that in right now.

I'm kidding.

Yeah, you have a lot of characters in

your JA universe. Is it accurate to call

it a JA universe?

Uh, I call it JMA cinematic universe

just because um I want it to be like

Marvel. Oh,

but you know, it's I think it's kind of

cringe now. It's been it's been a while.

It's like 4 years now. But I I guess

it's kind of like I wanted to link the

videos that were kind of related because

the characters are recurring like Crypto

Poppy. Oh, that's another one you

missed.

Oh, yeah. Sorry. There's a lot. You have

a lot of characters.

Yeah. So, so it's just like I want them

to make sure that oh, it's related and

that there's a character there. But

yeah,

right. Joba has created many characters

in his journey as a YouTuber. And I have

way more to say actually. His YouTube

channel is filled with some of the

funniest, most well-produced and

entertaining tech comedy short films

online. He recently took a two almost

three-ear hiatus from YouTube, and

everyone's been asking what he's been up

to, where he's been, and today we're

going to talk a little bit about his

recent surprise comeback to YouTube, his

newfound life, going back to the

corporate hustle, some major life

updates that possibly include a wife,

and I can cut that out. five

and the intricate brain of Joma. So,

thank you for coming on.

My wife doesn't watch. It's like, "Why'd

you make that noise

when

when she talked to my wife?" Huh? How

come you're so nervous every time you're

talking about your wife and you're so

you're so like um energetic when you

talk about something else?

I can't tell if you are excited to talk

about her or you're just like scared to

mention that.

I don't know. I guess it's like a

mixture. It's like um it's like I do

want to protect her privacy as much as

possible. Uh I don't want her to touch

anything related to social media. I

think that would probably be true for

like my in in the future my my my you

know future family and stuff like that.

Yeah.

But you know I I do love her a lot so I

like talking about her.

You know but I also don't want to reveal

too many details cuz then you know like

they might like search or like you know

do some stuff you know. But

I will scrap out all the questions I had

then.

You know, I think it's fine. Yeah.

No, I respect that cuz um you met her

offline. Like she's not a creator. She's

not in that space. So, I'm sure like

privacy in your relationship is really

important. So, I really respect that and

I won't ask too much, but

I know how the internet is. They're

mean.

Yeah. People get kind of mean about

stuff. But no, I I think it's really

nice to know that

you're thriving. Like I mentioned that

earlier, but it seems like you have a

lot more going in your life that I feel

like two years ago weren't there. So

yeah, I'm excited to talk about it.

Cool. Cool. Yeah.

So I had a question is what do you

actually lead with nowadays? Because

you've been away from YouTube for 2

years and you're making your comeback

right now, but you also picked up a job

and also you're just invested in a lot

more like AI stuff, which we'll talk

about later. So what do you call

yourself?

Oh, I see. Like what do I lead with?

Uh I don't know. I don't put labels in

people, you know, but let me think.

Okay. Well, well, I I guess first of

all, uh I mean, this video would

probably come out after my comeback,

right? So, I'm not working on that

anymore. But, um yeah, what do I lead

with? I don't know. I mean, I generally

when I meet new people, if they don't

know who I am, I think I just say like,

"Yeah, I'm I work in tech." Right. I I

just work in tech. I think even back

then when I was a YouTuber, I probably

wouldn't say it.

Right.

Right. Unless I'm trying to flex,

right? Like for example, like uh there

was this one time I was in I was in

Singapore and and uh we had like a fancy

dinner, but then I really wanted to like

I was taking videos and we're making

jokes and my brother was there and then

my brother said like, "Oh man, you guys

are you guys are going to go like viral

because of me making videos?" But they

didn't get what that meant like like

what do you mean like why would I go

viral,

right?

So then I wanted to flex. I was like,

"Oh, you kind of famous. I'm kind of

famous." But um yeah, so so sometimes I

would I would I would flex it, but then

I get very embarrassed like right after.

So I I I try not to do it. But yeah, no,

I I don't like telling people that I'm a

YouTuber cuz then it brings in like a

lot of other questions. I kind of just

want to have like a genuine connection

first.

Mhm.

And then and then you flex it later if

you want to. It's kind

play the card when you need to.

Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like It's kind

of like playing guitar, right? Like I

could kind of play guitar, but I won't I

won't tell anyone unless randomly

there's a random guitar,

you know, in the room and stuff like

that. But yeah, so I just say I work in

tech 9 to5. That's just who I am. Yeah.

Out of all the creators that I know and

have met over the years, I actually

think you are surprisingly more of the

normal type.

So creators are weirdos?

No, no, no. But some but like I I do

think that you

you're very real. Like I don't feel like

you put up a front necessarily and I

feel like you don't really let the

fame in a way get to your head because

you you had a pretty like

explosive growth on YouTube.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I find that really cool.

Well, I think I think that's true for

you too and and some of the creators we

hang out with as well. I mean that's why

I hang out with you guys, right? Like

for example, what what what do you lead

with nowadays? It's hard cuz after I

quit my job, I I can't say that I'm like

a software engineer anymore. But I like

to say more that I'm trying to figure it

out and I'm also an artist. I I like

calling myself an artist more because

I would like to call myself that

actually.

You are kind of an artist like a video

form.

I guess I'm kind of shy like like am I

really, you know, like am I allowed to

to use that term yet?

Right. cuz I feel like the term it

usually comes with like oh you know

you've you do it full-time, right?

That's one and also two

it comes with the connotation that

you're poor,

but like I'm definitely not struggling.

So I don't want to be like they'll be

like, "Oh, you're an artist. Let me let

me get that meal for you." Like like I

don't want I don't want that to happen,

you know? So I'm just I'm just kidding.

Like I'm I'm sure people don't think

that, but I mean it's just all in my

head. I've never thought that about

I'm an artist. Oh, I'm sorry.

Although I do think there's more of a

struggling artist. Like if you look at

the word struggling artist, it is

literally ingrained in that word. So I

kind of get that.

Like I kind of fantasize of saying like,

oh, I am like that artist. Like

romanticizing like, oh, I'm kind of

struggling or like I get so I get so

much anxiety and trying to think about

like art and stuff like that. But it's

like no, you know, I have a 9 toive job.

I'm like paid well. you know, I I'm not

in the same level as them, for example.

I didn't make the same sacrifices,

right? So, so I can't I don't I can't

call myself an artist.

Yeah.

I think what's interesting, though, is

you were full-time as a YouTuber for

Yeah.

Um, was it two years? Close to two

years?

Like one and a half, maybe?

One and a half. And during that time,

did you feel more like an artist or did

you still shy away from

I think I still shy away because it's

like I'm so commercial.

I'm a YouTuber. I make sponsor videos,

you I try to think about like I don't

know business ideas to monetize and

stuff. So I'm like that's not a real

artist. And a lot of the times I would

kind of like force myself to make

videos. I was like an artist wouldn't do

that. An artist do it out of like

passion. They do it out of like oh this

is something I want to see in the world

and no one else is going to make it. But

at that point not necessarily. I don't

think that was me. So you know I

wouldn't call myself an artist back then

either. I kind of understand the the

inner conflict that you're describing

because I feel like when you do things

online publicly, it almost diminishes

the creative

like the craft of it,

right? It's hard to say that I'm an

artist if I'm also doing social media

because a lot of people would see me as

like a content creator or an influencer

or other terms. Yeah.

But I wanted to talk a little bit about

your time as a YouTuber and also your

comeback video because I think you're

one of the best YouTubers that I know.

Thank you.

I'm like really gassing him up.

But I think like you are very good at

making high production videos and that's

something that I feel like is getting

lost more with social media and Tik Tok

and everything. Like putting in that

effort to make good videos is feels

harder and I feel like not as many

people do it. So, I wanted to talk about

your comeback video first because that's

something that you recently put out.

Hopefully, this episode will go up the

week that he puts this out. But, do you

want to tell us a little bit about the

story behind

Yeah.

that piece?

Um, I I I do want to make a comment

about like uh high production and stuff.

I think in general like I don't think

that's I don't think you need to make

high production videos. Uh because like

I see a lot of Tik Tok videos that I

really resonate with and stuff. I think

in the end it's like if it's genuine

like what you think like people can feel

it. So it's like it's just a different

medium. You like yes not a lot of people

do the same thing as me in terms of like

high production videos but like I've

made videos that are like 1 minute 2

minutes and also like not high

production and I think they're some of

the best videos. So uh anyways so the

story uh of of this new video is related

to the cinematic universe or whatever.

So, it's the story of Eric Wang. Um, to

be honest, like the inception of the

idea was just the song Pretty Girls Walk

Like This. Like, it's literally I

listened to that song and I said, "Oh my

god, wouldn't it be funny if that's my

comeback,

right?" You know, iconic.

Yeah. That's the first time you'll see

me in in 2 3 years. So then that's when

I went like oh well it could be about

Eric Wang and it could kind of parallel

a little bit my life I guess but um

where it's like the rise and fall of

someone. So it in the end the story is

about Eric Wang which is a startup

founder. He makes a successful window

blind company called uh Blinder. And

then for this video, I wanted to show

how he can get immense success, but then

also like fall pretty quickly and then

get depressed and stuff and and and then

he kind of accepts that like, oh, maybe

that's not the life I want to live and

I'm okay with that. But then the end is

like, you know, it kind of shows that he

didn't learn anything. But but yeah, so

but but the point is I wanted to show

that arc. Yeah. And it's the first video

that I've ever made that actually had a

story line like from beginning to end,

like a plot. So, it's like I wanted to

flex that muscle. I wanted to like learn

how to write an actual plot. So,

hopefully I succeeded. I don't know.

Yeah. No, JMA showed me and James the

video right before we started filming.

And this is still in like the rough cut,

mostly done phase. Um, but it was really

good and I you guys should all go watch

it. But I was also surprised cuz it was

30 minutes, so it's very long. And I

think with what you've done in the past

that I've seen as a viewer is like

sometimes small skits, sometimes

short films but not so

yeah very short like maximum 7 minutes

maybe back then.

I couldn't even get the midroll ads.

I don't know if you know about that

cuz it's like 10 minutes right

or it's 8 minutes now but I I worked on

that. I changed it to 10 to eight when I

was at Google.

Oh really? Wow. That was my job.

Wow. Sneaky sneaky.

Yeah. JMA also worked as a Google

engineer, but this was before I was

there. So, wait, was it Wait, when were

when did you quit?

Uh, I quit like 2021. End of 20121.

Oh, so you were there?

Wait, we had overlap for 2 years,

probably. Yeah, I was in MP not MPK. Um,

uh, Men No, wait, not Park. Mountain

View. Mountain View in California.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I was in New York, but

we weren't friends back then.

Yeah. No, we didn't know each other.

Yeah. Actually, the first time I met

you, you asked to come to the Google.

Yeah. Yeah. The story behind that was I

wanted to look at meme genen.

Oh, I see.

But I actually never did because I ended

up just like

enjoying your time.

Exactly. Yeah. So, I enjoy my time. But

yeah, that was kind of like, oh, I I

need a connection where I can get meme

gen because not going to lie, one of my

videos that did really well, it's like a

one minute video.

Yeah.

Is literally just a video of a meme on

meme genen. So, I'm not that creative.

I'm sorry. Like a lot of it I know.

You're inspired. You're inspired.

Yeah, it says meme jam. So, I was like,

"Oh, let me just get more inspiration."

But anyways,

wait, that's that's still pretty cool

though. Very quickly for our Soji

Shotties that know that we do drink of

the day every week. Okay, Sass,

we got to do the drink of the day. It is

a Bloom Pop prebiotic soda with water.

And I haven't tried it yet, but JMA has.

Yeah, it's it's all right.

And the flavor is surely temple. So,

cheersing

bing.

I love your cups.

Thank you.

But but you can only drink them one way,

right? Cuz like

Oh, yeah. You have to hold it with your

right hand.

Oh,

yeah.

Okay.

I need to figure out how to make these

cups more ergonomic. But I think in

season 2 I will have new cups, so it

will be better.

Yeah. What did you think of me at first?

Like I'm curious, like real talk, now

that we've known each other for 4 years

now.

Yeah, it's been a while. Um, honestly, I

actually wrote down a bullet point to

say Sarah's impressions of JMA.

Oh,

but I didn't really think about this. I

was like, maybe we won't talk about

this. But I think my first impressions

of you are you're super like real. Like

I feel like you're not the type to not

like you will say what's on your mind.

You're also really funny when I first

met you and I think you're very accurate

to your yourself

in terms of like cuz your videos are

very like you you build characters so

you're not actually those characters but

I think you are kind of like the same

energy in a way.

Um but I also thought you were really

creative and I feel like you've done a

lot with your life too. So

inspirational.

Thank you. Thank you.

But those are really generic terms.

Yeah. But thank I appreciate that.

That's that's really kind. I was gonna

say my first impressions of you, but

I'll just skip that.

I'll just skip that. Oh, it's so

awkward. What if I don't say the right

things? You said so many nice things to

me.

Smart. Funny.

Yeah.

Wait, am I funny?

No, you're funny. Yeah. Yeah, you're

funny. Yeah. No, I I think um I think we

can we can go pretty deep in terms of

conversations cuz I do think we have

kind of maybe similar upbringing, you

know, like like um

Yeah, this is the Asian immigrant

upbringing, right? So, so I was able to

like relate uh pretty well with you and

stuff like that.

Yeah.

But yeah, no, in general, like I I think

you're very eloquent, right? You're very

creative. I think I like that to be

honest, like more and more like

especially now that you you're doing all

of this. I thought it was like really

impressive and cool. It's not first

impressions because I didn't know in the

beginning, but yeah, I think my first

impression as well is like, oh, I was

like, she's a she's an artist for sure

because she colors her hair every single

every single week or something. So, I'm

like, oh man, interesting. And then I

guess like the shallow stuff, you know,

I'm like, "Oh, Princeton, I'm like must

be smart. Google, I must be smart,

right?" But I'm pretty sure it's true. I

mean, statistically, you know, if you

went to the Ivy League and stuff, but

yeah. So that So I had a good impression

of you for sure. Yeah.

Thanks.

Yeah.

That's nice to hear. It's honestly

sometimes I'm like, do people like me or

do they just put up with me? But I think

everyone thinks that way.

Yeah. On the topic of us being able to

connect in the last 3 years, something

that I've really appreciated about our

friendship is that I've had a lot of

like down moments, especially last year.

And I remember I was talking to you

about it because I felt like I just you

went through something similar. And I

feel like we could connect on that

respect. And I also see you as a mentor

in some ways cuz I feel like you've

tracked life more.

You're old,

right? I lived more than you. More

years.

Yeah. many more years.

But it's good cuz I think we're both in

better spots than at like our lowest

points.

Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. I'm I'm

glad you feel the same way now. But

yeah, I was about to say like, yeah,

first impression. Yeah. But then I

learned that you were a sad boy, so that

was interesting.

But yeah, you're very introspective for

sure.

Yeah.

You probably overthink a lot.

I do. I do.

Yeah. Yeah. So,

I'm working on that though.

Yeah. Same same. Um, but going back to

your comeback,

one question that I forgot to ask before

we started talking about your video

though is what have you been up to the

last 2 years since being away and what

prompted you to actually come back with

a comeback video?

I'm I'm always trying to think of like

how do I want to present myself about

like why I quit and stuff and I always

have these jokes of like, oh yeah, I was

on vacation that's it like to and and

then and then ran out of money so I need

to come back.

But like but yeah, like you know you you

know me like I you know I got I got

depressed.

Yeah.

Right. like but we can talk about that

later but um yeah so I got depressed and

then um yeah things were hardish but I

kind of like slowly regained my mental

health you know I still needed money so

I worked and stuff like that but but

that's the thing like I thought I was

never going to do YouTube again cuz one

of the reasons actually the main reason

why I got depressed is YouTube it's

always YouTube it's it's it's weird and

then I kind of just like slowly worked

my way and then I built up my confidence

again

and then for me naturally whenever I

have confidence, I start wanting to do

other things, extra stuff.

So, it wasn't YouTube immediately. At

first, I was like, "Oh, let me just like

now that there's Chachi BT, coding

became way more fun. I could create

things really, really quickly, right?"

So, I would do like random projects and

one of them was like um like Fortnite

games.

Yeah. Like, cuz I played Fortnite. I

played a lot of Fortnite and then uh you

know, I wasn't satisfied with the maps

cuz they're built by like kids. I was

like, "Man, I could eat their lunch. I

can make so much money, you know, and I

started making I was like, "Oh, it's

kind of hard."

I was like, "Maybe these kids are

talented." But yeah, so I was making

these games, making random apps and

stuff like that. So I had a lot of fun

doing that. But then after a while, you

know, when I heard the song pretty girls

like,

I said like, man, maybe maybe I should

make maybe I should make a small video

to come back. And then uh and then

that's kind of how it started. But

there's also a business reason, right?

It's like coming back to YouTube. It

also means I can like start doing like

small things. Like I didn't want my

comeback to be like, "Oh yeah, I'm

making this like food channel that's not

like super successful, but I'm still

just like doing it or like or or me like

announcing something like, hey, can you

do this?" Cuz it is useful to have an

audience where you can move like if ever

you make something new like for example

like your soldier cups and stuff, right?

You could bring in the audience there

and see if they like it or not. So I was

like, "Oh, I I want that ability to do

that again, but I don't want my comeback

to be like anticlimatic,

right?"

So I was like, "Okay, let's work hard on

a comeback video."

And then at first it started with like

one scene and then it started being

bigger. I was like, "Oh wait, maybe I

should make a whole arc." And then I

didn't realize how hard it was. And it

took me like more than half a year,

almost a year to make this video. But

also cuz I had a full-time job, so I

didn't have that much time, right? And

and and also like I'm married now, so

like you know I have to spend a lot of

time with with my wife too, which is a

good thing. I love doing that and and

without her I probably wouldn't have

been able to make the video because like

a lot of the times I'm I'm just like

beating myself up saying like, "Oh, this

video sucks. It's not going to work out.

It's I'm too busy or like maybe work is

too busy, so there's no way I could

finish this." But yeah, but she helps

me. She empowers me. So

Oh yeah.

I really saw a turning point once you

started dating your wife. Like true

the the moment you started dating her, I

feel like your mental state went like

shot up.

Yeah, it's correlated. I I don't know if

it's causation, but it probably is.

Yeah. No, I was like this is a different

JA cuz I only ever knew you as like

depressed. Yeah. So, so yeah, it's funny

cuz cuz my manager that Daria like I've

worked with multiple companies,

but he was like um

like when I was like falling my he said

like my brother caught me and then he

lifted me up and then my wife brought me

to thrive. So these three people are

like the most important people in my

life kind of during that state where I

was like super depressed.

But um yeah, so I'm like super thankful

for all three of them, you know. I mean,

yeah, I love my wife, but I'm not going

to give all credits there. You know,

there there are other people Yeah. in my

life, like family and also my my mentor,

I guess I could call him. Yeah. Yeah.

And to

I'm hung over.

Oh my god.

No, but I wanted to also ask if you

could clarify like the timelines because

you went away for 2 years and during

those two years you actually started

working again cuz you were doing

full-time YouTube

for a year and a half.

Yeah.

When did you find a job and what

prompted you to go back? Yeah,

timeline's kind of hard to think, but I

I think like after my like my last

video, I think I just had like a a spir

like a six month spiral of like, oh,

like let me try this, let me try a

different thing, you know? It it's

weird. I I even had like um this like

company that asked me to like make a

series or like a cool show and they

would give me like a lot of money for

it.

Wow. You know, I I guess I'll just say

it was like it was either 200 or 400,000

to to make it or something like that. I

would probably just do like, okay, I'll

spend $200,000 to make it. I'll keep the

other 200,000, right? Because that's my

fee, I guess. You know, I was like,

let's go. But then as I was writing and

I was like hired a producer and

whatever, I was like, oh, let's just

make this. I was like, wow, with

whatever I'm making, this sucks. It's so

cringe. Like, and then I realized like

it's not the money that was a limiting

factor for me that I can't make like a

movie or whatever. It was my skills or

like my ideas. Like, I'm not there yet.

Even if someone comes up to me and they

were like, "Hey, I'm going to give you

like 5 million." Wait, that's not

enough. Sorry. Like, I'm going to make

you like I'm going to give you 30

million to make like an indie film,

right?

I'd be like, "No, I can't unless maybe

you pay me like I don't know a good

salary for a few years to figure out if

I even have a story to tell."

Mhm.

Right. So that's why I learned like no

that's I'm not I'm not that great. Like

it's not money is not the limiting

factor for me. For example, like the

video that I made just right now. Like I

didn't need to spend that much. But the

hard part wasn't like getting the money

to make it. The hard part was just

getting the good ideas to like get it to

fit well and stuff. Yeah. So that so

then I just didn't make it. And then and

then I I spent it was like a cognitive

dissonance thing cuz like oh wait,

didn't you say like this this is now

your shot? You can finally do what you

want.

Right. But clearly like I wasn't ready,

right? I was just not I don't think I

was creative enough. I didn't or like I

didn't have a story in the back of my

mind because most people in in in film

industry, they already have a script.

They have something that they want to

make and and they're just waiting for an

opportunity, right? Like I didn't have

that, you know? There was nothing that

spoke to me. Like there was no story I

wanted to tell. So yeah. So timeline.

Oh yeah. Timeline.

Yeah. So so it was that. So, it was like

a six-month downfall and then that's

when I like got into my head and I was

like super depressed or whatever. But

then uh and then I tried to get jobs,

right? I tried to start applying

and then and then that's when like the e

economy was like really bad or like the

job market was really bad, right? I was

like what the hell's going on? I have

Facebook and Google my resume if I can't

get any interviews. Like what the freak

is going on? Yeah. Yeah. And then but

then after a while using like my

connections and stuff like honestly it

wasn't even my resume but using my

connections like I got like a contract

job uh at like a gaming company and then

through that contract job I I turned

full-time and stuff like that. So then I

started working there for like a year

and a few months and then I moved to the

company that I work at now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's awesome because whenever I talk

to you about your job that you have

right now I think you genuinely enjoy

it. It's all right. Like there are parts

of it that's nice,

but I think it's because of the social

part.

Yeah. And I was going to say it's nice

that you found work that you enjoy doing

and the people that you enjoy working

with because I think people is the

hardest thing to align in work/corporate

space.

Yeah. I mean, I definitely don't want to

romanticize it.

Mhm.

There are days I [ __ ] hate it,

you know. And as with any job.

Yeah. So, it's like it's not great and

and it's possible I might quit like in a

year or two or whatever, right? Like I

don't know. I just try to do whatever is

good for me or whatever is fun and stuff

like that or whatever I think has a

higher opportunity to help me grow to to

make me I don't know better as a person.

But um I think I got lucky cuz at first

when I went to the job I'm working with

the same manager.

Yeah.

But then I was like okay I'm just going

to go there work eat whatever and then

clock out. That that's how I was

thinking. But then the people like

around my desk they're so nice. They're

so fun to hang out with. So, so every

day I just get so excited to eat lunch

and dinner with them.

So cute.

I mean, not a lot of them show up for

dinner, but some do.

But I, so I think that's why I like my

job cuz like, oh, I'm finally in this

setting. It's a bit social. And then

like it's free food. I I save 20 bucks a

day or like maybe 40 bucks a day. That's

pretty nice. And then yeah, I just made

like pretty good friends. I mean, even

if I didn't make friends, like the fact

that like I could just chat with them,

it it helps. I think humans are social

creatures. you kind of need that even if

you're an introvert.

But um so so that really like jobwise

it's

all but it's like you know you get paid

really well so like suck it up

you know so I just got to suck it up.

Yeah.

I think that's how I would describe my

last job kind of like the people kept me

there but then the work is just like

work still at the end of the day.

Yeah. It depends depends what project

like sometimes the projects like it gets

kind of grindy but then some projects

are more fun. So yeah, it changes all

and it's also like your perspective too

cuz sometimes when I don't need this job

I can just quit whenever I convince

myself I can quit whenever then I feel

better and I'll be like oh yeah okay I'm

going to quit soon anyways but then

suddenly the job is fun now cuz I don't

don't I don't put that much pressure

right

right cuz you don't want to work in fear

and I feel okay for this company

specifically

you guys can guess what it is but like

but people are usually in fear of like

layoffs right so but but then when you

play in defense like it's not going to

be that fun. If you play the game or

like you work as if like oh let me see

what what I can take advantage of at

this company and and I don't need it

then it feels much better. So my guess

is like I don't know if it's the same at

Google but all the people or like the

high level people they seem so chill are

they?

I think they're more

because they're loaded

right cuz they technically don't need

this job so so they're probably more

chill about

Well I was going to say you taking a

offensive position with like layoffs and

stuff like that. I'm curious if you

think it's cuz it comes from a place of

like somewhat privilege to be able to

have an option of like you don't

necessarily need to work.

Yeah. I'm so privileged. I'm rich, man.

Like I'm not rich. But like in

comparison to most people in America

Yeah.

Like we're we're rich,

right? Like the moment you have like a

like a six-figure job is like or the

fact that you can get a six-figure job

whenever like

it's a privilege.

Yeah. It's it's it's hell yeah it's a

privilege. I know people always say it

on YouTube like, "Oh, you know, I want

to make sure I say that I'm privileged

or whatever." It's like, "Yeah, I know

I'm privileged, you know." But anyways,

this is the real side of drama. Like,

this is drama being really real.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's like, no, I I

get it. But like, yeah. A lot of the

times people have to be so careful about

social media because they're so afraid

of people saying like, "Oh, you're so

privileged and you're complaining about

XYZ." I'm like, "Shut the [ __ ] up, man.

Let me complain about whatever I want,

okay? I have sciatica. It hurts." So,

you know,

this is the most controversial episode

of Soji with Sarah.

You can edit this out if you want. Your

choice. Your choice.

But, but you're right. Like, you know,

like, yeah, I know all this. You know,

everyone's privileged in their own ways.

But I hate the fact that we have to

defend ourselves so much on the

internet, you know, or we have to be so

careful,

which is why I don't want to talk about

like, you know, my own life and just put

characters

that way. I defend myself cuz I'm like,

it's whatever. Like, I don't want to say

anything. You know,

I was just about to say I feel like

you're more immune to that sort of

criticism because you build this world

that is fictional almost

whereas I feel like for me I feel

especially like prone to getting

negative feedback if I, you know, don't

acknowledge privilege or don't say

certain things. But I think like you've

been generally more immune to that. But

I might be wrong.

Yeah. I don't know how you deal with

this. Like that's why I don't want to be

a vlogger. I mean, I do have videos

where it's like I'm playing myself or I

am myself, but in the end, I'm always

playing kind of a character, right? But

yeah, I would hate to always have to

second guess what I have to say and

stuff like that. To be honest, I kind of

have to do that here right now.

I didn't give you a PR rundown.

Yeah, exactly. But I just I just trust

that, you know, you'll protect me like

if I say something,

cut out everything,

you know, like [ __ ] everybody like that.

You'll help me cut it out.

I actually don't even know how to edit

this one.

[ __ ] I just need to put on my video.

That's why I'm here. But

yeah, but so it's dangerous.

Sorry, this is promo for JA's video.

Yeah, but um but it sucks cuz but that

also means you can never be yourself.

And it kind of sucks too like in this

way that the fact that you can only make

videos that are fictional and stuff like

that then people don't know who you are.

So they'll just always make assumptions,

right?

I just I just accepted that. I think I

I'm actually probably even more

sensitive than you. I I might sound

immune, but no, everything I read about

me, if I do read, it sucks, you know,

and and especially if there's an ounce

of truth to it, it really sucks and I

hate it. So, I just don't read it. I try

not to read it or I try not to put

myself in positions where I can uh feel

shitty about myself because of that.

Yeah. So, that's why like honestly like

I'm just going to I don't like being a

YouTuber. I don't like being an

influencer. I just like the craft. I do

like the success that comes with it.

Like, I'm not going to lie, money is

great or like the the like social

capital is great. Like, I'm not going to

lie,

but I just hate like

people making like judging you or like,

you know, saying, "Oh, you can't do this

or do that or whatever."

Yeah.

You know, like famous music artists, you

don't know much about them, right? I

think like Joji like like I don't know

if he's, you know, if he's leading right

or left or whatever, you know? So, maybe

I should do that more. that kind of

life, you know, like a part of me wants

to even just make videos where I'm not

in it anymore, right? It's easier for

directing, too. But that, too. It's like

I just want to get good at my craft, you

know? I don't want to go through all

this [ __ ] like social media

influencer thing, you know?

Well, a question that I had, no, I

appreciate everything that you said and

like how vulnerable you're being right

now. And a question that I had for you

with respect to your craft and like the

commentary online and like possible

negativity that can come with like just

being online. Did that contribute at all

to you taking that break and getting

into that like rut and depression that

you had or do you feel like that was

independent? And what where do you think

that depression stemmed from? Cuz I

think I actually met you at your lowest.

Yeah. So I I've I've had these like

events, you know, like multiple times

and now I see a pattern. To be honest, I

it's not always a trigger. It's just

chemicals right?

As with most times depression, I feel

like there's no

Yeah, there's no reason, but you you'll

assign a reason randomly, right? I I'll

get to that what the reason might be.

But I truly do think that like when you

get really happy, like serotonin levels,

you're going to drop no matter what. And

YouTube's a crazy drug, especially when

you're like successful or whatever, you

know, like I've seen it in every

video like I'm burnt out, you know, and

they always burn out and and before

doing YouTube, I always thought like

idiots. I'm not going to burn out. Like

what the hell? This is stupid. Like, you

know, you're like getting so much gains

and stuff. But I think it's literally

just chemicals. Like when you take

Molly, not that I've taken Molly, but I

heard that when you take Molly, right,

you're you're like super happy. You're

appreciative of your friends and you're

just so happy about life, but then you

have to come down and then you get kind

of depressed and stuff like that. So, I

truly think it's literally just like

mental and has nothing to do with it.

So, now I try to kind of like dampen my

happiness. I don't know how, but

dampen it. That's like a not what I

thought you would say.

Yeah, you got to dampen your like don't

don't feel too amazing where you're

like, "Oh, I think I'm the king of the

world." like like Eric

Wang like be realistic about your

successes and wins and

kind of yeah like like like nothing is

permanent and you can't be attached to

too many things I guess.

So then the trigger for me was more like

oh my god I'm not making any good videos

anymore personally. I just I was writing

them was like oh this sucks and then I

was forcing myself to be creative.

People always say like oh you got to

write every day. I was like sure okay I

write every day. I'm like this is [ __ ]

every day. I feel I feel so bad about

myself. I'm like this. And then because

of that, I was like, there's no way I

could make YouTube my career. I see.

I made a huge mistake. I [ __ ] up. I

was like, I'm not gonna make any money

anymore. And now it's so hard to get a

job.

Yeah.

So that so I got the press like that.

I see. I think also YouTube is really

lonely. Like I know you work with people

too on your stuff sometimes, but it is

inherently like a very lonely place and

you can feel very isolated in like how

you navigate the emotions around like

the algorithm and the creativity push

and all that. What I found really

interesting is when I met you, I think

you were at like the peak of your

success and like

it's probably why I was arrogant, right?

That's probably why I was arrogant.

Yeah.

Very true. But I also remember I was

just surprised like we would talk and

you would share that you weren't very

happy with how things were doing or how

you know like you were really burnt out

and I was like but he has everything

that a creator would want you know great

views, dedicated audience. Um you had

like a vlog channel too. Jo in New York

City.

And so it was like surprising to me to

hear you say that. But I think the

longer that I've been a creator, I

realized that no one's immune to the

burnout. It is extremely toxic to tie

your self worth into like views and the

algorithm and to always push yourself. I

really also felt last year I felt like

my creativity completely like dipped

because I was like forcing myself to put

out videos when I didn't really want to.

But I guess going back to like the

creativity side of things, this is also

tying back to something you said

earlier, which is like when you were

approached with an opportunity to create

a series with like a full production

budget and everything, you felt like you

weren't creative enough and you felt

like you didn't have the skills for

that. Was there a point where you

realized that it wasn't, you know,

something that you were capable of doing

or did you like could not come up with

ideas for that? Yeah, I I think the

point was just like we wrote kind of

like a draft for episode 1 2 3 4 5 or

whatever and then like we worked pretty

hard on it and then when I just looked

back or like we kind of presented it and

they were like, "Oh yeah, it's chill,

whatever." But for me, when I look back

at all the episodes and what would the

the beats were and like some of the

scripts or like some of the writing, I'm

just like, "This is garbage." I don't

know. Like I think I'm just too hard on

myself. But

actually, no, I'm not. It was garbage.

It was just not good. Yeah. Just not

good. Like I know when the work is not

good and then I also put a lot of

pressure on myself cuz I'm like, "Oh

man, I have to make this. I have to make

this." I was I think my mental was

already kind of shitty then. So it it

kind of like it was just kind of loop,

right? So I was like, "Oh my god, I'm so

stressed." The fact that they gave me so

much money. It gave me too much

pressure. I was like, "It has to be

good. It has to be the best." Right? And

I think the way I approach my new video

that I I just posted is totally

different where where I'm like h I was

like it's probably just my most loyal

fans that will watch it because like a

lot of it is like esoteric like it's

very limited to like basically a lot of

um inside references. It was more just

to like, oh, you know, sorry I left so

for so long. Here's a longass video,

you know? So, I didn't feel that much

pressure and it's also not expensive,

right? And I have no sponsors.

So, yeah, cuz I think, you know, I'm

definitely a people pleaser, I guess.

And and the more money that they give

me, the the more like, oh my god, like I

have to make this good. But the more I

pressure myself, the more it sucks, cuz

you're not playing anymore. The best

things come from when you're in this

zone of play. You were like, "Oh, let me

experiment. Let me do something stupid."

I think most Tik Tockers, they blow up

from a video that, you know, that was

like dumb or like some but but it means

it was because it was genuine. It came

from the heart, you know? It was it was

what they wanted to do, right? And and

then you kind of just start chasing and

and and that sucks. But it's good for I

don't know to grow yourself as a brand

but then you're also like oh my god I

have to just do this one thing or can I

sustain this thing like or or does it

keep being successful like I don't know

right like

yeah the thing that I gathered from your

recent video is I felt like you had a

lot more free will making that one and

it seemed like a culmination of things

that maybe you were engaging with more

like I felt like the CGI was really cool

in that. I felt like there are some

references to the the state of the

economy with AI layoffs, things like

that. And I wanted to ask how much you

are influenced by your personal life or

things that you care about and think

about when making your videos,

specifically this one.

Um,

it's like a little bit like I I I

definitely have to live through certain

things so that I can make things look

authentic or whatever. I wouldn't say

Eric Wang is like me that much though.

He's a dick, right? like he's definitely

a dick, but there are like things that I

want to show like the rise and fall of

Eric Wang for a startup,

you know? It's it's a little bit about

the rise of like my YouTube channel and

how quickly it can just become nothing,

right?

And how it sucks and and you could like

be a bit like too egotistical once

things work out very well. So, I kind of

just wanted to explain that. I wouldn't

say it's like totally my life, but it's

like I do need to feel certain things to

like be able to act a certain way or

like act in front of the camera. Right.

Right. Like you know to be sad I have to

be sad at one point in my life. To be

angry I have to be angry at one point in

my life. Sorry. What was the question

again? Sorry.

How much do you get influenced by your

personal life? Cuz I was actually going

to say there was a monologue where you

had in the video where it was Eric Wang

kind of like talking about I forget if

it was success but it felt like very

Joma like it felt like something you

would say in real life.

So I was wondering how much

is it cringe? Like did you think it was

cringy for sure?

No, I thought it was good.

I might I might take it.

Your acting really carried but the

script also was good.

I might take I don't know.

No, no, no. I actually really like that

one.

Yeah.

Um Yeah, cuz like Oh yeah. So that is

like just related to you know people in

general who are too ambitious.

Yeah.

And then they get like sad cuz they feel

like they didn't reach their level of

success that they wanted. Yeah. So I

tried to channel that energy into myself

when I act. And so yes it is a little

bit related to myself where it's like oh

man like I always wanted to be awesome

but I'm not anymore. or like you know I

wasted my like a lot of the times like I

guess when I was depressed I was like

man I shouldn't have done YouTube I

wasted my [ __ ] life doing that like

every time I get sad I'm always like

I mean I know it's not true but that's

the thing when when you're like when

you're sad when you're whatever your

chemicals are so weird that you're not

rational

and then you start blaming random crap

and I always blame YouTube. I'm always

like dude this ruined my life. I could

have just been the easy nineto-five guy

like I had a you know and just had like

a chill life you know get married or

whatever but that's kind of like the

thoughts I always get whenever I'm in a

bad state.

Mhm.

So I just try to channel that and then

you know show it on camera. But not

going to lie, I kind of want to like

flex some acting skills too.

I watched the bear. I don't know if you

know that show.

Yep. Yep. Cooking

and the So obviously like I was like who

am I who am I trying to be? Like I was

trying to be Jeremy Allen White doing

that crazy monologue,

but then when I did I was like, "Fuck,

it's so bad." I was like, "This is

garbage." So that's why I'm not even

sure if I want to include it, but but

then it doesn't it needs to Yeah. It

needs to tie the whole story, though.

But

yeah,

but yeah, I was like, "Oh, let me do

this one shot, right? No cuts, right?" I

was like, "Let's do it one shot." And

and I was like, "Let's do a 4-minute

monologue, five minute monologue." But I

cut it down to two. But I was like,

"Let's let's do a long one, you know,

cuz I want to be like Jeremy Alan

White." But but I I was humbled quite

quickly. Um so yeah, so I do do things

just to flex my skills, not going to

lie. Like in my videos, it's it's not

all genuine and all whatever. Like I do

want to flex my acting skills from time

to time, you know? But but but

surprisingly, I don't really like acting

really.

Yeah, I don't

I was going to say

I do like to flex, but I don't like to

act that much. It's it's too hard to

hear that. Okay, cuz I was going to say

for some context, Joma plays a good

chunk of his characters in his videos

and he plays it well. Like I've seen you

play different types of characters and

what whatever it is like sass,

spiciness,

geekiness, like you are good at

embodying everything. And I'm I just

don't like I don't see a lot of people

who are capable of that who are like

just YouTubers. So, I wanted to ask you

where you get your acting chops from and

how you discovered that you're good at

acting.

Yeah. I personally don't think I'm that

great cuz I have worked with real

actors, right? And and the real actors

are definitely way better than me.

They're more comfortable. They're

quicker. They they know their lines. I

can never learn my lines. It's so

freaking tough. And I also do like 30

takes

for like one shot or whatever. So, so,

so it's more just editing,

right? It's just like you just do a lot

and then one of them is going to be

okay. M

but um but aside from that uh I think

one is just practice but I think the way

I think about it is like try to be real

like try to be actually mad when you're

mad or try to be whatever or be

empathetic like what would that person

uh feel like and then you kind of just

want to you know do it like there's this

one scene where I just get like

frustrated because of the the the stock

price. I was only able to do that two or

three times cuz like my hands would be

numb.

Wow.

Yeah. Because like I I would try to make

myself really like anxious and scared

and and truly afraid of that.

Wow.

So So it's like Yeah. I guess I commit.

I guess that that's this thing. You just

got to commit and pretend like that's

really real. And then because of that I

was like I don't want to do it again.

Like it's like it's so taxing which is

why I don't want to act

cuz it's a bit taxing especially if you

also need to direct at the same time

right. So because you have to do both

none of it is going to be good. The

acting won't be that great, nor the

directing because you can't focus 100%.

I guess it's kind of like when you play

piano and you sing at the same time.

Oh yeah, it's much harder.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's kind of like

that.

I was going to say that scene where you

were I don't know if freaking out the

very crashing out when you were crashing

out. I was like like dang, he is like

really really like going at it and I

felt it and it was like really crazy to

watch cuz that was like a very intense

scene and I was like wow you did that

really well. Yeah, that one I was

concerned too. I was like, is it too

long? I was like, but um but yeah, we

filmed it like one or like two, three

times, I think. And um yeah, I was

surprised that it turned out decent like

on film cuz when I was acting like I

didn't felt that genuine,

right? Like like oh that's the thing I

think acting tips is like you know when

you feel genuine or not. When you feel

genuine like you were truly feeling that

way, it reflects well on camera. I see

right like want to try

the the scene where you're literally

but just but just in general like

imagine if I tell you like oh act as if

I said something to hurt you by accident

you know.

Mhm.

And and and then say like okay let's end

the podcast. You want to try?

Oh are we actually okay?

Oh no no no. Okay. You don't need to do

that. Sorry. I put you on this spot.

I can I can but now I can't because I'm

feeling sassy for some reason.

Or or or if you're feeling sassy you can

act as sassy as well. Get the [ __ ] out.

Oh yeah. Yeah. See, see you felt it, you

know? You were like, "Oh, that felt

great." It's like, "Yeah." So that's why

like when I worked with actors, a lot of

the times they're like, "Oh, wait. Can I

get one more?"

Cuz they want to like feel it more.

Yeah. Exactly. Because they think

there's like, "Oh, no. I could

definitely feel it better." Cuz they can

tell, right? They can tell. So I usually

like, "Oh yeah, let's do it. Let's do

it." And then when they hit it, they

feel good about themselves. And then

they really hope that nothing else

[ __ ] up. Like sometimes the camera

[ __ ] up, the the audio will [ __ ] up, but

but yeah, they really hope that they got

that specific shot because they can feel

that. Oh, it felt real to me.

That's cool.

But sometimes it's hard to get to that

feeling, especially when it's an intense

emotion. Uh have you watched Breaking

Bad?

I have. So

yeah. So Skyler White, there's this

scene that um there's this scene where

uh I think I think uh Walter White takes

the daughter away from her, right?

And she was like, "Please, please," or

whatever, like don't you know? and I saw

behind the scenes of that and she she

was just like kind of like um yeah, she

just didn't like her performance a lot.

She just couldn't get there as an

actress. But then finally the last shot

she did it and it just looked great. It

felt so authentic. Yeah. I think because

humans can really tell really quickly

when it's bad acting like even for a

professional actor when they didn't like

that take like you can tell as a viewer.

I I think humans are just really good at

like detecting micro emot uh micro

expressions and stuff like that.

Especially people with high EQ, I guess,

like they can tell that someone is

uncomfortable like at a party and stuff

like that. And um and that's why I think

acting is like really really important,

especially if you want to tell something

cinematically.

But yeah, that's why it's tough. It's

tough. Yeah, I feel like it's an

undervalued

skill that not everyone

has and you have it particularly well

because I guess you've been doing it

this also for a while too.

Um, but I'm genuinely always impressed

by how you carry yourself as an actor.

Like you make me believe that you are a

character.

Oh, thank God. Yeah.

Yeah. And James and I have actually said

it before when you're not around. Like

I actually think JMA could be an actor

in Hollywood.

Thank you. Thank you. Um,

oh,

what?

Okay, so I was at I was at Sobaya.

Yeah,

the uh the restaurant. And then I was

eating with my friends and stuff like

that. Like I I thought I saw people like

look at me like like they would cross my

table and then come back and stuff and

it was like two young girls, right? So I

was like whatever. It's probably like

it's probably nothing, you know? Like I

don't want to be arrogant and think that

like it's related to me,

right? So my viewers I was like no,

there's impossible. It's like two young

girls. Like my demographic is like techy

men, right? But then after they finished

eating then one of them just came up to

me randomly like hey he's like are you

an actor?

Oh

I was like I was like no. Wow.

I was like no I'm not. And then like no

I I think I saw you on Netflix or

something. I'm like no I'm not. But then

that got me thinking. I was like wait

why do they think that?

Like is it truly because I look like

Ronnie Chang or something you know or or

whatever. But I think maybe is that they

did see one of my videos like randomly

on Tik Tok or something like that. But

then because the production quality was

kind of high for Tik Tok, they kind of

like thought it was a Netflix thing or

whatever, you know, because like

sometimes people come up to me and

they're like, "Hey, wait, don't I go

climbing with you?" I'm like, "No, I

don't [ __ ] know who you are."

But uh but but it's just like maybe

sometimes you see something and then you

you can't pinpoint it, but you just know

you recognize someone.

But anyways, point is is uh I was very

flattered.

Oh yeah.

I was very very flattered. Um there's no

point to that story. No, but I was going

to say your stuff could literally be on

like like production wise, quality, and

I think like entertainment value, it

literally would be

Yeah. Okay. So, I'm not trying to be

humble, but that's probably not true.

Like in terms of production quality,

it's not even close,

right? Um

I wouldn't know though.

Yeah. But but I think as you like start

doing these things,

you start to realize like what is high

quality and what is not. Like like trust

me, it's it's very far away. like um

like the production design is in there,

the the makeup is in there, the blah

blah blah. Like there's so many things

that make something pop like really well

in in like actual uh Netflix shows or

whatever, but it doesn't mean that it's

a good show. It could still suck even if

you have a high budget. But um

just that there's a difference in the

production quality.

Yeah. Yeah. But but there's a huge

difference. Like if you put a scene from

like my videos and Netflix, you'll be

like "Oh no no no no no no no.

It's definitely not like at that level."

I think I'm just too much of an average

viewer of stuff that I don't see like

the differences that much.

Well, in some ways it's a compliment to

me because it's it means like, oh, the

the story was engaging enough that you

don't even think that there are flaws,

right?

Yeah. Cuz like the only reason why

people like spend so much money is that

it's so that it's more mainstream and

people can consume it pretty easily.

Like if you pick a eh movie and you take

out the music, you realize how cringe it

is

sometimes or like it's bad, you know, if

you just take out some elements, you

Yeah. Well, I think those things I guess

the reason I say I think your production

is really good is is I feel like you

capture the essence and vibes of a

particular scene really well. Like you

have really good

music choices. I noticed like you had

the Interstellar soundtrack for

at some point I was like, you know, I

clock it because I feel like I'm feel

strongly about music choices. I feel

like a lot of people don't know how to

make the right music choices for

specific things. But I think you're

really good at that. And I also think

you're really good at like the acting

which conveys the story line and then

also the like narrative that you create

through your like stories.

So that's why I say that. But I

understand that like maybe there's like

differences in how things are produced.

Yeah. I think for music like I

definitely do stand on what is it the

shoulders of the giant. What's that

expression? Yeah, I do stand on the

shoulders of giants because I am using

like awesome ass music, right? Like that

already exists in the world and stuff.

Um, so it just sounds great regardless.

I do work with a composer, it's very

expensive.

That's cool.

Yeah. So, so when music like they have

sync points as in like for example when

you're shocked, the music is also

shocked and like it moves with the um

with the scene.

That's how you get the music to fit very

well. You custom write the music for

that specific scene.

Yeah, I see. I see.

But it's very expensive.

What did you do? There's a scene I'm

thinking about a specific scene where

you're getting like amped up

and then there was the song segment

afterwards.

Um founder

Oh, founder mode.

Yeah. Was that an actual like Did you

get that composed?

No, no, no. That was AI.

Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. So, so this video has

a lot of AI usage.

I could tell.

Yeah. No, I I I think it's so cool. Like

it allows me to do something that I

couldn't have done before at at like a

at a reasonable price for music. Should

I say this? Okay, it doesn't matter. But

I can cut it out.

Yeah. Okay. Well, b b b b b b b b b b b

b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b

b b b b b b b b basically for music like

sometimes a minute of music composed

is $500.

Oh wow.

That's the price. Yeah. Yeah.

Which makes sense cuz you know you don't

need music for more than like a couple

minutes.

Yes. Yeah. It it depends. If your if

your if your video sucks, you probably

want it

the whole That's funny. And some of my

videos do kind of suck, but then the

music literally saved it. Like I work

with one composer, she's amazing and

stuff like that, but she got more

expensive, but but uh but in general,

she's like very successful and she's

like the best I've ever worked with. And

uh and she makes my videos pop, right?

So So it is not like it's not all me in

my videos, right? Like a lot of people,

for example, the CGI, I didn't make the

CGI. It's like some other guy. So, a lot

of people do put their hands into my

video which makes it good.

Yeah. But uh but anyways, but the with

the AI stuff like Yeah, it's insane.

Like you can make something that would

have been really hard. But note that

like I still prefer real people because

they're like better. They have better

taste. For AI, it's limited, right?

There there's only so many things you

can do. I know a lot of people are like,

"Ah, man, AI are ruining artists or

whatever, whatever." But I do truly

think that like AI will just accelerate

it and and allow you to be creative

without having to spend so much money

and time for like the the [ __ ] crap.

AI can solve that, right? Yeah. Yeah. I

feel conflicted about AI because I think

it's inevitable, you know, that AI is

coming into use. I think as an artist it

is scary and there's that whole

discourse of like will it replace what

artists do and like kind of like

dismount the creative spaces. I hope

there's regulation in the future such

that like you use it in like proper ways

and like certain things are illegal. But

I think like the way that you're

describing where it's supplementary or

supplemental to the things that you're

doing and it just only elevates what

you're doing is like helpful and good.

It's uh but it's hard to say. I think

some people will be pretty pissed at

like my views on it cuz I I do have an

extreme view where I think like

like I I want artists to be all you need

to do is like decide like or like taste

or like your own style like I want I

want to extract like for an artist

I don't pay you to execute I I pay you

to like

to to have an opinion you know because

because you have a special eye or a

special ear

you know what I mean like you have that

creative vision I think Everyone should

be kind of like making these opinions. I

don't want you to just like grind it

out, you know? For example,

when people make anime videos, like real

animation, the Japanese artists, they

would draw key scenes. What was it? Is

it key scenes? Key frames

frames

and then the rest they would just like

outsource to like I don't know some some

third world country to like finish it,

right? So clearly the the in between

frames, it's not the creative process.

the creative process is figuring out

like the story. I don't think AI would

be like even if AI is amazing at

creating stories in the end there's a

person that decides like oh this is the

better story than that and I will choose

that this is perfect for that right and

and when I pay artists I don't want them

to just grind I want them to have an

opinion of like oh what is better what

is good for example when I pay the uh

like composer to make music for me she

just has that like intuition of like how

like what I'm trying to say in my scene

and then she creates music perfectly for

that which which is why it sounds so

good and it makes so much sense because

she has like an aligned vision with me

and or even surpasses that right so I

want artists to thrive in that way

to be actually creative I don't want you

to grind that's for the AI

yeah I can see that perspective I do

think there's a subtle nuance to you

want people to creative direct when the

goal is like creative directing a thing

I think there is like an art to like the

the actual manual

like the

Yeah.

sad in that part. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's hard to capture

that like the true artistry of things if

paintings are getting replaced, but then

the craft of painting is gone. But I do

totally see it from like

that respect where if I need like a

logo, I don't necessarily need someone

to handdraw every single logo, which is

what I did for like my pottery business.

So, I can like resonate with that. I

also think like you're really tapped

into like the AI space. Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Like you're working on some stuff,

right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

If you wanted to share a little more

about um

uh Yeah. actually before that though.

Sorry, I didn't mean to like throw under

the bus.

Yeah. Before that, wait, what did I want

to say? Like um the AI stuff.

Uh grindy. Oh man, I had something good

to say. But

we can sit on it for like two seconds.

Okay,

I'll drink some water.

Yeah, let's do a water break. Grind. Oh

yeah. It is kind of sad that like you

know how for example there's these

people who make like samurai swords or

whatever.

Yeah.

Or all the or like leather bags and

stuff and then now everything can just

be done in machines and stuff.

Yeah.

But it does seem like they still produce

something that's better currently. I'm

not sure if that's true, but if it is

still better, I think AI won't replace

the the specific craft that we're

talking about, right?

You know, but I don't know. We'll see.

We'll see what the world will become.

Yeah. I think there's a very like

complex discussion there to be had.

Yeah.

However,

Yeah. Anyway, so I was gonna plug my

other thing. It's called a

Yeah, this is a press run for

Jo. Yeah, I'm doing a press run. Yeah,

one podcast at a time. So, I do have

this like app that I want to talk about,

which is uh like an app I made, Vibe

Coding. I think it's pretty fun. It's

basically just like an app where you

have like a bunch of different styles

like remember the Studio Ghibli

or like a or like um the the the

yearbook AI look or whatever. There's

going to be a bunch of that and then

people can create their own styles

easily by just like describing it and

stuff like that and then other people

can use them. So it's kind of like

YouTube but for AI styles, right? So

people can be like, "Oh wow, they could

just browse and they could see like,

"Oh, that's a cute style." they use it

and then you would could turn like your

own photo into the photo in that style.

So, I think that's kind of like just the

beginning of what I'm envisioning. But

basically, it's like I think there's a

lot of value for AI artists to share

their prompts or their I don't know

styles without telling them what the

prompt is. So, you could monetize it so

you can like get paid for your ideas.

So, you could get paid for your creative

direction, right? But it might get more

complex in the future once uh we're more

we're smart about it. Like for example,

you could put in a photo of you and your

partner, write a summary of how you guys

met, and then what it outputs, it's

almost like a founder mode music video,

but instead it's like a video, a cute

video of you and your partner and how

you met anime style and with like a nice

song with lyrics that means a lot to

you, right? I think that would be really

cool. So yeah, so I'm starting that.

Yeah, you actually have the app made on

the app store, right?

I do. Yeah. Yeah.

So you guys can go download it. Mosaic

styles. You have to write the two words

because my SEO is not good.

Oh, it's not just

Yeah, you need mosaic space styles.

That's really funny.

Check it out. If you look at mosaic,

you'll just have an app that like

mosaics like the sensor sensors and

stuff. But yeah, but yeah, thank you for

letting me plug that.

Yeah. And you're also interested in like

future in the future more like AI

generative AI stuff, right?

Yeah, absolutely. like um I think it's

all kind of related like me having this

app is kind of like to attract you know

these people who are experimenting who

are doing cool things so that I could

get the best talent in the platform or

just to know them so that I could also

learn how to do these techniques like

when I did the founder mode video

yes

like yeah I was playing around with

midjourney photoshop and whatever like I

just have to use a lot of different

tools but you kind of learn random

techniques on your own just like how I

don't know blender or like like whatever

software you use. You're going to start

learning tricks as you start using it. I

think now it's the best opportunity to

just play with these tools in case you

figure out something that no one else

figured out like how to be how to have

consistent characters or whatever or

something that's really beautiful that

you can create, right? So, I think it's

it's really awesome and I do want to

like experiment a lot more in that area

so that I could improve my videos as

well. Do something that no one else can

do. Yeah. Right. And for reference,

Founder Mode is the little music video

segment in JMA's latest YouTube video.

Um, wait, you said the song was also

created by AI.

Yeah,

that's crazy. I thought you hired

someone to sing.

No, it's Suno.ai is insane. Like the

songs actually sound good, but but to be

honest, like no one's going to listen to

it dayto-day, so it's not like better

than real songs.

Upload it on Spotify.

No, I will. I definitely will. But

that's the thing.

Yeah. It's like it's good at first

glance, but it's actually not that

great. Like it's it's generic. It's very

generic. But the fun thing was like the

way I made it was um I just asked Chachi

PT. I was like, "Oh, so there's this

concept. I want to talk about founder

mode where it's like they do a lot of

unethical thing, but then they have an

excuse. It's because they're just

founders or like it's founder mode,

right?"

And then they wrote like the verse and

the chorus and everything. I was like,

"Wow, that's pretty good." But then I

would have to change a little bit

because sometimes it doesn't make sense.

But you just tweak a little bit. You put

these lyrics into Sunnu AI, it would

generate you a song, like an actual

song. You could say what your style was.

I see.

Yeah. My style was like Beasty Boy style

or whatever. And then you would generate

multiple of them and then see which one

you like.

I feel like in your video there were so

many just so many bits that I was like

impressed by the quality and like the

creativity of it. So, it's cool to see

like unpack that in a way. Welcome to

intermission time. Joma has brought the

intermission snack of the day,

which are peaches. Do you want to

explain the

again?

Well, yeah. I got them from the farmers

market. They're really expensive. It's

like $10 for three peaches, but I think

they're actually better than most

peaches, but I'm I'm not sure. Maybe

they're just really ripe and they're

perfectly ripe. I hope these are good. I

put them in the fridge, but apparently

putting them on the fridge will make

them not as tasty.

Oh,

yeah. There's like a bunch of things you

can't do. I didn't know that.

Well, I think I chat told me. I'm not

sure if it's true, but

Well, here's a good look at the peaches.

They look great. They really do look

great. There's your peach. And then I'll

grab mine.

Yeah, you should be careful cuz maybe

it's juicy.

Yeah. Um Yeah.

You put the whole thing in. That is

crazy.

Okay, I'm going to have to eat my

hand over. Oh, thanks.

M.

Oh, they're not as like watery as I

expecting, but it's really like

Yeah, it should be water more watery.

So, this is probably not the best one.

I'm a bit disappointed, but

it's good. You like it?

It's good.

It's all right.

A little mushy.

Yeah. Okay. All right. Let's Let's throw

them in the garbage. [ __ ] these. [ __ ]

these peaches. They're not that good.

Well, um, usually we give a rating for

the intermission snack. So, how would

you rate that out of 10?

This?

Yeah.

Seven maybe?

Yeah.

An eight. You sound

cuz I like peaches also.

Okay, that's good.

We recently discovered a peach salad.

Peach bar salad.

Oh, that's really good.

Yeah. And that's why I've been liking

peaches more lately.

Like honey a little bit.

Yeah.

Balsamic vinegar.

I get it. I get it.

Very good. Hot seat.

You're in the hot seat.

Okay. Now it is hot seat.

I've actually Okay. I've actually never

made it far enough for the hot seat.

What is this?

Is it just fast episodes you never

watched far enough? I'm I'm pretty sure

I I think I heard about it, but like I I

forgot what it was. Yeah.

Yes. Let me give the rundown.

Yeah.

I'm a bad fan.

No. No. Please. Okay. So, for hot seat,

basically, I'm going to rapid fire

questions and you're going to rapid fire

answers.

What if I say something wrong?

That's your fault.

Is there Do we have the power of Okay,

let's do it. Let's do it.

Wait, if you want And then if you want

to pass, you take a shot.

But Jan doesn't drink.

I don't drink. However, I didn't send

out a form because whenever I have

guests on, I do send out an form and ask

what they want to drink. And he said

he's lactose intolerant, but he put his

drink as milk.

Okay. So, that was a joke. I'm not

lactose intolerant. I just thought it

was funny if I were.

Yeah. No, I love milk. I love milk.

Yeah.

Okay. Well, I have oat milk cuz I donut.

Yeah. I don't

interesting. Yeah. I like old milk. It's

really yummy.

I mean, usually the goal is to get you

really drunk. Not that that's ever

happened on the podcast, but I have milk

shots today in our

Soju shot glasses.

Beautiful.

Hard to hold up. Kind of chunky.

Taste testing it.

Is it good?

Yeah.

Costco has the best oat milk

in my opinion.

I usually get my milk from the farmers

market.

You literally were like, I'm not a

common farmer.

I don't I don't make food for myself cuz

I have food at work. But anyways,

nice. So, whenever you're ready, I will

start speedballing these.

M I'm nervous.

You're nervous? 3 2 1. Biggest

misconcept Oh my god, I can't even. Let

me say that again. Biggest misconception

about you.

Oh, I'm gay.

I'm not gay.

Um, do you consider yourself a tech bro?

Tech bro? No.

Oh,

I'm not broy.

Do you How much do you relate to your

character Eric Wang?

Oh uh 10%.

Your role model in life?

Rick Rubin. Oh, interesting. Um,

favorite K-pop group?

Y. Oh, man. Why did I say that?

It It's not. It's just the first that

came up to my mind. Like, okay, fine. It

see.

Wait, who who is your

No, I I feel like nowadays I like New

jeans a lot. I like Blackpink a lot in

general. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you wear the pants in your

relationship?

No.

Oh, um, if if tech didn't exist, what

industry would you be in?

Oh, probably gardening.

Okay. Probably video. maybe or maybe

investment banking cuz you know like if

you're not in tech but I'm still like

that money chasing guy

probably consultant or to be honest.

Yeah.

No, love that. Um what's one piece of

advice you'd give yourself 5 years ago?

Oh yeah. Yeah. Mental health really

important.

Very important. Um yeah, one advice.

I don't know. I don't know.

Probably to take take care of your

health more mental and physical cuz uh

cuz you'll have sciatica in 5 years.

I wish I told myself that I would have

back pain in 5 years. 5 years ago.

But how can you like what would you have

done to like fix it by not working? Like

what can you even do like not working?

Like you can't you can't exercise more.

I feel like is really strongly

correlated

and standing up straight.

Um the what's the most you've spent on a

video?

Like 100,000 or something.

Wow.

But but I mean I was also sponsored so

like I got the money back is I I didn't

but like ish. Yeah.

You really invest in your

And the video had no views.

Oh,

can I just tell you that? Because it had

to be it had to be like location gated.

It was like so sponsor and it had to be

location gated and like barely anyone

saw it. It wasn't that great. Yeah. It's

not even there anymore. I like put it

down. Isn't that? Oh, wow.

That's a lot of money and effort for

Yeah, but usually it's not that

expensive. It was just this one thing

that I was like, "Well, let's go ham."

I see.

Yeah.

Favorite character you've ever created?

Oh, Crypto Poppy. Yeah. He's like the

19-year-old crypto trader. Yeah.

I like these questions.

Yeah. Favorite video you've ever

created?

Ah. Hm. Probably crypto traders be like,

"Oh okay.

When crypto Poppy is in there." Yeah.

Do you ever feel like people have cozied

up to you for clout?

Yeah, probably. But but I don't hang out

with them ever. It's more just like back

when I was doing full-time

and then there were some of the it's

either it's it's either like the the

fake VCs, you know, like

I don't know how to explain but in

crypto there's a lot of those people.

But yeah,

I'll stop at that.

Love that. Okay. Well, I thought these

were a lot, but there we kind of sped

through it. So that's all the questions.

Were people supposed to like add like

details to it? I wasn't sure.

Some of them were kind of

It's like hot takes, so I wanted to go

fast. So,

oh, if you want to add detail to any of

them.

Oh, really? Oh, because hot seat. I

thought it was like quick, you know.

It is quick, but right now you can add

detail if you want to.

Oh, I see.

Is there any story you wanted to

elaborate on? I feel like you said some

controversial things in there.

Really? Did I What did I say? Do you

wear pants in relationship? I'm not even

sure what that means. What What does

wearing the pants mean?

Oh, it's like who calls the shots? Who

calls the shots? Who?

Oh, I mean, we both do. It's It's half

half right?

Okay.

Yeah, it's half half. I'm not I'm not

sure like like can you give me an

example of shot calling? like, oh, where

do we want to eat? Is that is that one

shot call?

I think that's one. Or like if you're

going on vacation and you know, one

person is like very always the one that

decides and always does everything,

always takes care of stuff.

It's hard to say. I I would say I would

say it's pretty equal there. But okay,

so the thing is I thought about it

because I've touched her hands.

Oh when

I paid like 600 bucks for that.

What?

It was in K. Okay. Like, okay, I'm not a

creeper. I swear to God, but like it was

a KCON. I was there with my friends and

then it was kind of fun cuz people were

trading cards.

It's like so you get a ticket and then

you get a randomized ticket for whoever

you can have a more personal like time

with or whatever. I don't know. But you

get to high five and then I had fun

trading cuz I was like oh my god like

can I make more money like by trading it

or like by buying certain tickets but

then by selling them back and stuff. And

I ended up with Y. And then I went to Y.

But I also liked YY back then. But then

yeah, I just like watched whatever they

were talking about, random crap. And

then at the end of it, you get to like

high five them

and I was like, doom doom. I tried to be

interesting. I was like, Leah, I was

like, oh, I'm Canadian, too. She's like,

okay.

They probably get that line like so. I

was able to touch their hand. So then

that's why I was thinking of Y. But they

haven't done anything that I listen to

in a while. So I don't listen to K-pop

that much anymore.

Oh, but you used to. I was surprised by

that. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you know who Rick Rubin is?

Honestly, not really, but his name

always floats around.

He's like um he's like a music producer

for some of the most popular songs like

N Problems, but a [ __ ] I want, you

know? Yep.

And um and his way of like living life,

he's just very pure as an artist, as a

creative. He wrote the the creative act.

It's like I'm sure you've seen the book.

It's like a circle and a thought.

Oh yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I read that book and I

was just like I felt so seen but also

like I relate so much to it or like I

feel like a lot of his nuggets can be

applicable to to my creative work.

Oh.

And and I just think he's a genius, you

know, because of that. He's just so

clean with his words and um and the way

he lives, right? He has a big ass beard

and then he's like he wakes up and he

just like does his thing. He meditates.

He does like pool water aerobics and

stuff. I was like, I I want to be more

like him as a creative, you know, so

that's why like

that's why he's my role model, even

though that I don't listen that much to

his music.

Oh,

cool. Well, those are all the questions.

Um, usually I do these to make it really

spicy, but like I'm just like I don't

know.

I I just don't want to put people on the

spots but

thank you.

Thanks for answering all those

questions.

Appreciate that.

Yeah. Now, back to the episode.

Back to the episode. Let me see what I

wrote down because I I definitely had

other questions that I wanted to ask

you.

Is it recording?

Dude I

I would die if it's not recording. I

Is it cool if I sit like this for

fine? I look ginormous.

Yeah. Okay. While you search for topics,

I'm going to talk about my sciatica. So,

recently, I think another new thing

about me within the two years is that I

developed sciatica. That's when you have

a a disc bulge, you know? So, like the

L5S1,

I have a disc bulge in my L5S1, meaning

between my two vertebrae, I have like a

disc and that disc is protruding and

it's touching my sciatic nerve. So, when

I sit for too long, it [ __ ] hurts.

Is this Do you think this is related to

sitting in front of a desk so often?

No, I don't think so. I don't think so.

Cuz so many people do that and and

they're fine. I think you just one

either get unlucky or two it might have

been that day when I was trying to

impress someone. I did a deadlift and I

laughed and then then I released my core

and then I [ __ ] up. But it didn't

immediately hurt cuz then I went to Asia

for a trip and then when I came back

that's when it started getting tight and

then suddenly it hurt a lot and I I went

to PT and everything. I I read books to

try to fix it. It's it's really really

bad. Some people do surgery for it but I

think I'm okay.

Oh, I remember you recommended that book

to me.

Oh yeah. actually helpful. What is it

called? Um, like healing,

but it's by Miguel. His name is Miguel.

He works in Waterloo. It's called the

something back, I think.

Healing your back.

No no no no.

Oh, is there any more you wanted to talk

about for your sciatica?

No,

it's fine.

I wanted to first of all mention if you

guys do watch J's video, I actually made

a little mini tabby, so I'm plugging it

there.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, are you going to uh

sell these?

I am.

How do you make that many if you have

to? It's hard. I think I'm doing a

limited batch, so it's really hard to

keep up, I think, with high quantities

of stuff, especially when you hand make

things.

I think my goal is to eventually wean

off of like handmaking completely. Like,

I do want to still hand make stuff, but

I feel like building a pottery business

is really hard.

So, I don't want to burn myself out

trying to like

Yeah.

keep up with them.

Yeah. You do so many different things.

Like,

I don't know how you do it and why. To

be honest, it's just it's more the why.

It's like got to stay focused, you know,

just just one thing, you know, or two

like the moment I add too much on my

plate, like I burn out and like or maybe

not even burn up, it's just like I just

don't have fun

or like have you ever read Cal Newport?

No, it's like Cal Newport. Yeah. He

talked about slow productivity. It's

like a book. It teaches you or like

teaches like the modern worker on how to

like not be always so stressed about

work or like

you know how to say no to certain things

and one of the ways is to do less to

take on fewer things in uh at work but

then do them really really well.

So so that like the output can be can

justify like you not taking on too many

things or being very clear about what

you can't do. I don't know if you ever

had that experience at Google where it's

like you have to do that that and then

you have so many [ __ ] meetings and

then you know you just have no time to

do actual work because it's most mostly

just context switching and busy work,

right? So he teaches you how to like uh

protect yourself from that.

That's actually something I was thinking

about a lot at the end of last year

because I felt like doing so many things

at once like podcast, ceramic stuff, my

job,

I couldn't do anything well and then it

made me feel really mediocre. And so

when I went into this chapter of my

life, I was like, I want to focus on the

things that I really want to do. But I

guess I realized I really want to do a

lot of things. So I wouldn't say that

I've pushed myself to the point of like

burning out like I did last time and I'm

trying to be very like protective of it.

But it is true though. I think when you

dedicate your time to like a specific

craft, it is so much easier to go

further and to like get better at that.

And that's something that, you know,

I've learned the hard way.

Right. Yeah. That's a problem with me,

too, because I get I wouldn't say I get

bored of it, but I get discouraged when

when I keep doing one thing, let's say.

Oh yeah.

I get discouraged and then I I I and

then I'm interested on the next shiny

new thing. The thing is it's easy to

start new. Like, let's say you've never

done a Tik Tok before and you're

suddenly doing Tik Tok videos. It might

be fun at first, but then it's very

quickly like the novelty wears off,

right? So ideally my life would be like

oh you know I do this project and then

whenever I feel like I don't want to do

that project I do another project like

you have to be financially independent

and like retire or whatever but but that

would be my ideal life where it's like I

work with inspiration or like I work

through inspiration or I work anyways

like whenever inspiration strikes that's

what I would do and even if I don't

finish it it is okay you know and and I

just do what I feel like I want to do

cuz I do think like I can create

something pretty cool when inspiration

strikes. But I also don't want to tie

myself down. It's true for YouTube. It's

true for real work, too. It's like, I

don't want to do that forever. You know,

I wish I can just do a project like, oh,

let's say I want to make an app. Let's

do that. And then after I get bored of

it, okay, let's do that. Let's do

videos. Actually, I have a good video

idea. You know,

I filmed an episode this week and it was

about the stages of like starting over

in life. And one of the things that I

had mentioned in there is there's this

concept of like a second mountain in

life. This is kind of related, maybe not

completely related, but like in the

first mountain, you strive for like

success and like all the superficial

things that they tell you you need in

life. And then the second mountain, you

try to find more fulfillment. You try to

like you kind of are forced to like

start over again because you're

rebuilding the foundation of what

matters to you. And a lot of the times

what you're doing in the first mountain

kind of gets like feels dead to you.

like you after you do something like

your 9 to5 or like YouTube for more than

like two years, three years, you feel

like there's kind of a void and it's

like hollow. So, you try to find

fulfillment in other things. And I feel

like like you've experienced it. I've

experienced it. It's really hard to feel

comfortable just going down one one path

in life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think I think that's definitely

true. And and I like the mountain

analogy because um you know we're always

trying to find a a maximum or like we

basically we just want to be yeah a peak

basically uh we want to be as happy as

possible. But the the way I think about

it with like the oh that doesn't mean

much to you is because you were

searching for a local maximum. Let's say

you were a very technical term local

maximum gradient descent you know you

had a gradient descent and it told you

to go into

that local maximum that mountain which

is usually usually make as much money as

possible right or like

in our like upbringing I think

yeah exactly for our upbringing for sure

and then when we reached there we

realized like that's not the optimal

maximum that's not the peak of the whole

world there's so many other things that

you can do that would fulfill your or

make your life better but you just

didn't know and but you invested so much

in climbing that mountain so you do have

to rebuild yourself and you do have to

fall from time to time

yes

so that you can rebuild so I love that

analogy and I think it's really true

which is why sometimes I tell myself

it's okay to experiment in your life you

have such a long life you need to try

and fail and do a lot of different

things to figure out what is the life

you actually want to live cuz everyone's

different you can't follow an advice

from someone else because maybe their

version of their perfect life is

different from mine Right.

Right.

Yeah.

And on that topic, what are you

currently like? What do you think this

chapter of your life is going to hold?

Cuz I feel like you're going through

personal life changes and there's

Man, you're so good at this. It's like

you connect everything and then we're

still following.

We're still conversation.

Like a like a time No, not a time table.

Um a table of content like

Yeah,

that's cool. Well, I guess acknowledging

that

you have made I mean you have made 50

episodes so Yeah.

very smooth. Yeah.

Thanks. No, but I did want to ask though

because I feel like you've experimented

a lot with your life and things that

you've done. And now that you're coming

back to YouTube, like what can people

expect from you or not expect from you,

right? Like what your life

the more experienced I am,

the more I have no clue what the [ __ ]

I'm going to do.

Classic.

So, what can you expect? absolutely

nothing except that I'm definitely going

to take a break from making a video for

quite some time. So, it's funny. It's

like I'm back.

All right, bye.

So, it could be that, but I might make

some random stuff on like side channels.

Like, I might change my Jan NYC channel

to more of like me just talking about

things I care about like sciatica or

peaches, you know,

with sciatica

possibly. Yeah. But uh yeah, I might

have to like I don't know cuz I kind of

want to just take out that in NYC cuz I

might not be in NYC. I don't know. I

want to talk more about like random

stuff and I'll make it super simple

where I literally just it's almost like

a meeting.

I'll just film myself on on my MacBook

Pro so it's like low friction. Exactly.

Yeah. Like I I think for now in the

immediate sense I definitely want to

explore like AI stuff more to see what

kind of content I can make. I I wonder

if I could make a whole animation short

using it. for example, I feel like I'll

fail, so that might not come out, but I

want to gain the skills for that. I

might even tap into like CGI or or like

the more traditional tools cuz I'm

curious how the newer tools like AI

related tools can benefit or like can

leverage the the other skills like After

Effects and stuff like that,

right?

I don't know yet. So, I just want to

explore for sure. And uh yeah, I want to

play with Moza too because I want to I

do want to learn from like the best AI

artists just to see what's possible

currently because I was I was definitely

very surprised how I was able to make

like a music video with AI. Like it's

not great. It's not amazing but it's

better than not having one or not having

that segment.

So I want to continuously work on that

right now cuz like it's a great

opportunity cuz there's like a a big set

of people who are like tech bros who are

not creative. Sorry. So, like I don't

give a [ __ ] about what they always like

put out stuff and it's always bad, but

they're like, "Oh my god, Hollywood is

dead." I'm like, "Okay, I know you're

stupid." But then there's also a whole

group of people who are very creative,

like actual artists, but you know,

they're reluctant to use AI,

right?

But the intersection of those two, you

know, people who are into all these AI

stuff, but are also really creative, is

very small. And I think like I have the

opportunity to find these people but

also like be myself that kind of person

so that we can see what's new. Like for

example let's say we didn't have

photography bunch of painters out there.

When photography came they'll be like

what the [ __ ] like this is lame right?

But the thing is like it forced painters

to be not just craftsmen or like people

who just copy what's in reality but it

allows them to like oh well we have to

know what your special thing is. So it's

like creativity becomes even more

important. That's why we got Picasso

cubism and stuff like that.

So it sucks. Not going to lie. AI is

scary. It might replace my job at at at

you know my company and stuff like that.

Might replace me being able to film

stuff, but it'll force me to be like

what is the essence? Why? What story am

I trying to tell? You know, what is the

essence of the art that I'm creating

rather than just execution? And so I do

feel like because of AI, it's good in

some areas, but it's also bad some

areas. So, like how can we like morph

these two things and have an hybrid

approach where you can make something

that's meaningful? Cuz in in the end,

that's what matters. It's like are you

making something that's meaningful? I

don't care if it's AI. I don't care if

it's it's purely like um like

traditional media. The thing is like is

it meaningful? The great thing about AI

is that we can make it more cheap now.

You know, even photography like yeah,

everyone can take a photo now, but can

you take a photo that's meaningful? You

know, something that's interesting to

look at, right? And usually it's like

those black and white photos and it's

like really like artsy, but yeah, you're

right. It's cool. It's like you're

you're testing the technology to its

limits.

I I can That's a really long monologue.

Sorry. Um No, no, no. I think you're a

very practical creative

like I think you're a creative person

and like the way that AI like is

applicable is that it just helps

optimize and make things more efficient

and productive. And I think like that is

I think that's a very valid use case of

like

an application of AI. I'm excited to see

what you work on in the future with

that.

Yeah, me too. like I don't know what I'm

going to work on to be honest. Um yeah,

take it day by day.

Just like day by day. Yeah, right.

Um so that's a lot of the

creative/career goals that you have. But

I also wanted to ask you about your

personal life just a little bit whatever

you're comfortable sharing because

I'm sure a lot of your viewers are like

interested in knowing this. Um but you

got married.

M

how long has it been

since you got married?

You know some time.

There's a reason why I don't like talk

about my personal life a lot is because

of that like the you know the judgment

or like the hate. It's it's not even for

me but it's just for like the the

integrity of my channel you know in some

ways. But yeah. No. So so I got recently

married to a an amazing an amazing

woman. She's uh she's probably like the

most awesome person I've ever met. Like

she's very very funny. She vibes very

well with me. And you know the moment I

met her I I knew she was special for

sure. And then and then as we hung out

more, I realized she's like super caring

and empathetic and and all the good

things that, you know, most people

should have like she has and and she

definitely cares about me and

and I think that's one thing that I I I

value a lot. I'm very very lucky to have

met her for sure. So that's why I

married her.

A

Yeah, I was really sweet.

I trapped her ass before she knew that

I'm a dumbass.

Oh my god. I'm sure she's going to love

everything you just said.

Yeah, I hope so. Does she consume your

content? Like whatever you

Well, she knew of me. I think she saw

the the donut video, so it's it's it's

like a math video where it's like I show

you how to code like a donut on your

terminal

or whatever. Yeah, she's uh but she

doesn't really watch my videos. No.

Okay. I think that's healthy. You're not

too plugged into like the

Yeah.

other side of you. That's awesome. And

I'm not going to ask you too much about

your personal life cuz I respect the

privacy, but you also went back to a

corporate job. Is that considered

personal life? Do you consider that

more?

It's fine. We can talk about it. I mean,

yeah, it's in some of the internets.

Like some people figured it out on

Reddit and stuff. Yeah.

Oh, I see.

Yeah.

Do you care when people talk about you

online? Like I'm sure you've seen those.

Oh. Oh,

well, I think it's inevitable,

so it's okay. Yeah.

I literally searched up your name the

other day and someone made a video like

where is JMA?

Oh, I think I've seen that one.

Yeah.

Yeah. Is it weird to have so many people

interested in like your whereabouts and

like who you are and what you are up to?

Uh I'm not sure. I don't think it's that

weird to me. I mean I wouldn't do that

for any other creator like but I think

that's just the nature of things and

it's pretty gradual, right? So I don't I

didn't think it's weird. Like maybe if

overnight I became like more popular and

then people would care about my life.

But but don't you have that too like um

yeah people like wondering or like

caring about your life and stuff?

Sometimes there's probably some truth to

it though

of what people say about

like negative stuff, right? Like you

have to be critical where it's like,

okay, what am I consuming? Okay, is it

more of a reflection on them or is a

reflection on me? Sometimes there are

comments about me that I'm like, you're

absolutely right. I should change that.

Like, how come some celebrities don't

have that much snark compared to other

celebrities? Oh, you think so?

I think the reason that influencers and

creators are easier to snark on is just

cuz they don't pay for services to

protect their image. I feel like most

people are not attuned to like what it

means to have good PR.

Interesting. What do the PR people do?

Like there's no way you can delete that

many things though.

But they train you. Like they literally

literally train celebrities so that they

say the right things and if something

controversial comes up,

they completely just don't answer. Have

you ever seen that like clip of Tyler

not like someone asked her about race

and she just like was like,

"Oh interesting."

She just refused to answer it.

Interesting. But I guess that also makes

you like not as open or like genuine

though because you can't be completely

yourself right?

Yeah. Or they curate or craft the image

that you're vulnerable, but it's not

actually sucks.

Yeah.

I rather just not have an image, which

is why I was like, let's just make um

comedy videos,

comedy videos or whatever. And who cares

about my personal life? You know what I

mean? Like why do people care, right?

Yeah. Unfortunately, I'm too deep into

the

sharing my life. Well, I mean, I used to

do that too in the beginning because I

because I used to be about like, oh,

this is how you get into coding or like

into data science.

Your career journey, right?

So, then they value my like I don't know

credentials or whatever, but then they

then it also means that like I'm out as

a real person.

But then that's when I said like why why

why do I want to do that? Screw it. And

then that's when I started doing comedy

videos. I don't know. For me, it's just

easier to be like, yeah, just focus on

the craft, put [ __ ] out there, and then

leave.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I I respect what you do.

Honestly, I think it's so hard nowadays

to find creators that create long form

content that requires a lot of their

time

cuz your videos take months to make. And

I don't see YouTubers now spending that

much time

cuz it's not financially like what do

you call it?

Sensical logical.

Yeah. It's just it's just stupid. Like

like you shouldn't do that if you want

to succeed or if you want to have like

if you want to make it your job. That's

probably why I need a job. But yeah, cuz

yeah, you don't make a lot of money if

you have to like spend so much time to

make one video,

right?

But I do think that like in the long

run, right? What do people remember? If

it takes you that much time to make

something that's good,

they're going to remember it more out of

the millions of Tik Toks that they've

seen.

That's true.

And it's nice to have something where I

can be very proud of that I literally

remember making. And I think that's

important because we want the world to

have more, you know, meaningful content.

Yes.

And to make it meaningful, you probably

have to spend some time on it. Usually

that correlates with like better

content right?

Yeah.

Do you know Stardew Valley?

No.

So Stardew Valley is kind of like a like

a game, like a big game, but this guy

spent four years of his life, like he

didn't have any job. He worked on a

movie theater or like a different kind

of theater and then he spent four years

of his life making it. He had no idea if

it would be successful or not, but he

just liked making it.

Wow. So he put his soul into it and and

you can tell it's it's very um uh what's

what's that word like a single maker a

not a cornosauric

it's like a funny it's a cool word it's

like um okay I don't remember it's a

artisal

ur

so smart

yeah is that it yeah like he's an ot

right and um yeah he he made this game

in four years but then yeah and then it

blew up why because it was awesome it

was meaningful it was like something

that definitely had a personal touch to

it but and he saw it end to end. So

that's why I think like yeah some videos

take less long, some videos take longer,

but for me at least I don't want to

force myself to make videos cuz then

it's like what's the point, right?

People watch it, they forget it and then

that's it.

But if you make something that at least

at least it's meaningful to yourself, at

least you have something to remember

when you're all grown up and old and

have more sciatica.

Yeah, that's so true. I think despite

how fast social media is moving and how

saturated it's getting, I still like to

believe that people see see other

people's hard work and passions more

than they see like the quick cash grabs

and things like that. So, when you do

pour yourself into a craft or like

something that you really want to make,

I do truly believe that people see it

online.

Yeah. And and it's a long-term game,

right? I I've watched Bobby Lee a lot.

Do you know Bobby Lee?

Very funny.

Yeah. Bobby Lee like he has a long

career and he like he said always it's

your career goes up and down up and down

like you can't assume that you're always

going to go up up up up up up right so

don't don't don't like don't feel like

you have to chase that sometimes you'll

get like a different like Jo right he

was a YouTuber and then now he's famous

or whatever

or like you know artists that last for

very long like Taylor Swift right it's

like you don't rush you know you don't

try to like maximize all your brand

deals immediately y

just make sure that you you're you're

running this marathon

I used to have so much scarcity mindset

about opportunities. So I would take on

every brand deal,

but then you realize that it dilutes

your craft because then you force

yourself to like put stuff out.

Very, very true.

So my motto is like only do it if it

doesn't disrupt your other stuff.

Yeah.

The problem is we love money.

Y

not going to lie.

Human nature,

right? We love money. We love seeing

numbers grow.

It's tough. It's tough because because

the problem is that money also helps you

eat better

or like live more comfortably. That's

why it's so tough. So that's why like,

oh my god, I can't do this full time.

Okay. Well, we have been filming for

almost 2 hours.

Oh really?

Yeah. But I really do appreciate you

coming on. And I think one last thing

that I wanted to ask. Actually, two last

things. One is I'm sure there's a lot of

people that missed you that are now like

listening to this podcast. So, I don't

know if you have any other platform to

actually talk to them directly. So, I

was wondering if you had anything you

wanted to share to your viewers.

No.

It's chill, you know. Just keep watching

my stuff if you like them and, you know,

support me any way you can. But then,

yeah, support Sarah. She made the

freaking awesome ass like tabby. What

does a tabby mean?

Um, it's actually a type of shoe.

Type of shoe. Oh,

I think Margella popular.

I see. I see.

Um, it has the It's just basically the

shoe with the the toe the toe shoe on

it.

Oh, yeah. Like the Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah. JMA asked me to make that tabby or

he asked me to make something and I

asked him what he wanted and he said the

tabby

I said yeah I like the tabby a lot.

Yeah,

it's very cute.

So you're a proud owner of my tabby now.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um which you guys can also get when I

launch. Hopefully I'm going to be

launching soon after this episode drops.

So check out my page if you do want to.

But also check out JMA's

uh Yeah, check out my video. Like I mean

I'm sure there's a lot of people who are

watching this who haven't seen the video

or who who like who don't even know who

I am, but like

yeah, watch my video. see if you like my

stuff, you know.

Yeah.

And download Mosaic

Mosaic Styles.

Mosaic Styles.

Yeah. And then I have I had to write

this down for my own thing cuz there's

too many things to always say. But

please like, subscribe, comment, bell

notifications, and follow us on

Instagram if you enjoyed this episode.

And thank you for watching. And we will

Well, I will see you next week.

See, uh, what's hot seat?

Oh, yeah. We're doing hot seat, but you

guys will see it in the middle of the

episode. So, but we haven't filmed it

yet.

Okay. Okay. Okay.

All right. Thank you. Bloopers.

It's bloopers.

Just for the viewers, I guess. Like I'm

not like a I'm not like a huge farmers

market guy. Like like I don't go and buy

all my groceries there. I just happened

to pass by every Saturday and then I buy

like a few things here and there and I

discovered that the peaches were good.

Like they gave out free samples and then

of course I tried it and yeah, changed

my life.

That's how they get you.

I know. I know.

Yeah. When is the farmers market on

Sunday?

Yeah, Saturday. Saturday. Saturday.

Every Saturday.

Well, um, lots to unpack there. Um, I

actually brought JMA on to talk about

peaches today. So,

yeah, I'm a peach farmer now. I I think

Yeah, I guess I do like talking.

Yeah.

Um, I guess that's why I'm a YouTuber,

right?