L’agence MATRIMONIALE des entrepreneurs

You can be super smart, super ambitious, but if you don't believe your odds of success are different to everyone else's, you're never going to make it.

For the last 10 years, I've been building and running Entrepreneurs First, trying to find founders basically before they founded a company. We've now

built $15 billion worth of companies. We

now work with about 400 individual founders every year. So, the nuggets that we're looking for are not companies, they're people. Why do early stage companies fail? It's often

co-founder breakups. If you have a great co-founding team, it doesn't matter if the idea sucks because you will iterate to the point where you get to a good idea. Is megalomania good

idea. Is megalomania good >> in a founder? Yeah. Megalamania has

always been important in the people that have influenced the world and they believe they are different to everyone else. And this is not sufficient to

else. And this is not sufficient to succeed but it is necessary. One of the critiques I hear from US investors often polite and they'll say things like European founders are methodical, great

at product and they are very into planning. And basically what they're

planning. And basically what they're saying is like >> they're not hungry.

>> They're slow. They're focusing on the wrong things. And the founders think

wrong things. And the founders think they're focusing on the right things but they're planning in months and quarters, not days and hours.

here. That's the uh the first recording of the year, but it will be re probably Oh, probably released later on. Hi,

Ellis. How are you?

>> I'm very good. Thank you so much for having me today.

>> Yeah, I'm I'm so happy. So, you're just in Europe for a few days, are you?

>> I was over for the um Christmas break.

Uh, but I'm going back to my well sort of new home in uh California in a couple of days.

>> Oh, new home. Since when did you move there?

>> We moved out two about two years ago.

>> Two years ago.

>> Yeah.

>> How do you like it?

>> I love it. It is a It's a very special place. Um, the weather is incredible.

place. Um, the weather is incredible.

Um, the people are super interesting.

Um, and even though I I live in San Francisco and it's a very small city.

Um, having lived in London for 15 years, it does feel like a very, very small city. Uh, but I think part of its beauty

city. Uh, but I think part of its beauty is that it is such a small city. And so,

you're constantly bumping into people.

I've never lived in a city where um or in a place really where on a daily basis you bump into people on the street that you know, um, you know, going for walks or doing walking meetings or, you know,

I've got kids, so like in the kids parks. Um, and so in some ways you are

parks. Um, and so in some ways you are constantly networking because you're constantly bumping into people.

>> But would you I I found it hard in San San Francisco because there are so many places you have like Menlo Park or Mountain View or San are you living downtown San Francisco now?

>> Downtown San Francisco. Yeah. Um and I would say that most of the energy right now around startups is in San Francisco itself. Um it's interesting to see how

itself. Um it's interesting to see how many of the VCs have moved their primary office from Santel Road and and Menlo Park all the way down to San Francisco.

Um so it does feel like San Francisco and I think particularly since um you know OpenAI and Anthrop are based there as well. It sort of brought all the

as well. It sort of brought all the energy back into the city >> right there is a new hype >> back in town. Okay. Nice. Nice. Um so

Alice >> let where do we start? I have so many questions. I have question about you've

questions. I have question about you've been hanging around um entrepreneurs right for like long time >> very long time now >> and and trying to find how do you say

the gold uh liipit what do you say the gold golden uh >> uh the golden ticket >> the golden ticket but when you were in a gold mine you're looking for what a gold

nugget nugget yeah uh so gold nuggets that's what that's your job is it your job >> yeah basically so I spent the last 10 years trying to find founders basically

before they founded a company. Um so

trying to find incredible individuals who are really talented uh and then working with them from the point where they're sort of considering becoming a founder all the way through to the point where they become seed funded.

>> Um so we you know the thing that we do that is different is that we really focus on the founder rather than the company. You know we don't even ask

company. You know we don't even ask people about their ideas when we're we're speaking to them. We just want to get to know them, their behaviors, their preferences, their aspirations, their ambitions. Um, and so the the nuggets

ambitions. Um, and so the the nuggets that we're looking for are not companies, they're people.

>> So you're pushing that uh like to the maximum. What I'm saying is that most of the time when we invest, so uh we've raised money recently I I

with my friends at OVN Capital, right?

So we've raised 60 million uh last year and like in this game in this area, everybody says we don't care about the idea, we care about the team, right? So

you push this to the maximum, right? I

mean, you just say I don't you don't even need an ID. You just Okay.

>> Well, I mean, the thing I would say is that one of the reasons we don't ask people about their ideas when we um are talking to them is that often they will have many ideas. And often a lot of them

aren't very good. Um because if you're a first-time founder, you may not actually know what are the pieces that constitute a good idea. You know, learning how to come up with an idea is actually it's a process. It's something you can get good

process. It's something you can get good at. Um, and I suppose that's why we

at. Um, and I suppose that's why we really focus on people's behaviors is that's the bit that won't change. Ideas

do change. Ideas totally change, but people their behaviors and their preferences don't really change significantly. They can be nudged over

significantly. They can be nudged over time, but they don't change significantly.

>> Um, so yeah, I would say we take the sort of um what has now become common place is focusing on the team. We take

that one step further where it's focusing on the individual. And that's

because we've found so many great individuals who don't know who to co-ound with, don't know who to work with, and are still kind of searching for the right idea to really throw their time behind. Um, and so I suppose one of

time behind. Um, and so I suppose one of the things that we're very well known for is our ability to help co-founders find each other and actually build that CEO, CTO, co-founding team. Um, and so

yeah, I've been doing that for for 10 years and I love it. I just love it.

>> That must be quite fun. There must be about some frustration sometimes about not being into the field yourself.

You're in another field. But uh it's we'll talk about that. What I want to talk about Alice is um what is a good founder? How do you

become a good founder? Uh how do do you find a good founder? Um

what about because you're obviously in the tech area. What about AI and um is it changing everything right now?

Because as I understand you've you come from the the software as a service business a lot. Uh does it still work?

What about deep tech? What about

everything um on the plate right now? Um

and yeah, I mean how much did you invest total? What what is your economic model,

total? What what is your economic model, business model? Um that's what we're

business model? Um that's what we're going to talk about. Is that good for you? Yeah,

you? Yeah, >> sounds great to me.

>> Okay. Before that, if you agree, would you introduce yourself?

>> Sure. Uh, so I'm Alice Bentink and um, for the last 10 years, I've been building and running Entrepreneurs First. So, I'm one of the co-founders.

First. So, I'm one of the co-founders.

Um, and almost three years ago now, I took over as CEO. Uh, I was born and brought up in the UK, um, in the south of the UK in a little national park called the New Forest. It's called the New Forest, but it's about a thousand

years old as, you know, as much of Europe is. Um before I founded EF, uh I

Europe is. Um before I founded EF, uh I started my career as a management consultant at McKenzie. Did two years there. That was actually where I met my

there. That was actually where I met my incredible co-founder Matt Clifford. Um

we were in the same joining class sort of financial crash, global financial crash time, so 2009. Um and we met uh became great friends and then left after two years to start EF and I've been

doing this doing this ever since. Um and

so I moved to California three years ago. Um and I've got a husband and two

ago. Um and I've got a husband and two little kids. Nice. I'm just checking

little kids. Nice. I'm just checking where is New Forest. So, you know, Alice, we've almost been um neighbors actually.

>> Oh, really?

>> Yeah. Because look where I I I was brought up actually. That's here, New Forest right?

>> Yeah, that's right.

>> So, I I I I was raised in Sherbore right in front. It's

in front. It's >> We could have we could have waved at each other across the channel.

>> Yeah, that's fun. No, why I'm saying this is that um I mean, you were raised not even in London. Uh

London. Uh what what were your father mother doing?

What were your parents doing?

>> So my father is military. He's a Royal Marine um which is one of the um kind of elite special forces. And my mother was a doctor. Um I was back home at

a doctor. Um I was back home at Christmas where my parents live. And I

suddenly realized that growing up I've got 10 aunts and uncles. Um no one worked in the business.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, everyone worked either for the state, was a teacher, um, was a doctor, was military. Uh, and so growing up, business was not really, you know, and startups definitely not, but even

just like working in a business was quite a um, extraordinary thing. Uh, and

I think one of the big moments for me was um, when I was at high school, there was something called Young Enterprise that you got the opportunity to run your own startup while you're at school. Uh,

and actually because I was at at home over Christmas, I um found my teenage diaries, which a are incredibly embarrassing and no one must ever read them. Um, but B,

them. Um, but B, >> would you give them to me?

>> God, no. No one must I should burn them.

I should burn them. Um, but the bid is I'm either obsessed with like, you know, friendship dynamics or boys or or the other thing that I write at length about is my complete obsession with this

startup that I'm building at school. Um,

and that was the thing that really got me thinking that this could even be a career path, that being a founder could even be a thing. Um, and I'd sort of forgotten about this and I knew that I'd been really interested in it.

>> Like what age? Like like

>> 17.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> But it's interesting what you just said is friendship dynamics is something you're working on right now. I mean,

it's not friendship, but it's still human dynamics, right? It's a large part of what we do and it's the bit that people um you know and VCs when we started this 10 years ago said you know this isn't going to work. You cannot

take strangers and turn them into to co-founders and we've now built $15 billion worth of companies through this process. And the reason why it works is

process. And the reason why it works is because we're so intentional >> 1515 billion >> 15 billion um we're so intentional about it because I think one of the things that we often see is people stumble into

what we call a co-founder of convenience. you know, it's just the

convenience. you know, it's just the person, the friend that happens to be available at the time when they want to defend.

>> I've done that so many times. Yeah.

>> It doesn't always work out. And there's

often all this baggage, right, that's connected to that relationship. And one

of the things that we are very obsessive about is, okay, well, how do you create the environment that allows people to have the conversations that are fierce and are about actually what do you want?

What are you willing to give up to co-ound together? Do you really have the

co-ound together? Do you really have the right complimentary skills? Do you have the same intentions, the same ambitions?

And getting people to have those conversations up front? Um, and then also most importantly, giving them an easy way to get out of a relationship that isn't working. Cuz typically what you'd see is somebody finds their co-founder of convenience and then they

work together for say three, six, six months. They know it's not working, but

months. They know it's not working, but it's too painful to leave. Then they've

built something and they, you know, then they have this horrible messy breakup and who gets to keep what and what happens to the IP. And one of the big reasons why EF works is we make the uh opportunity cost of getting out of the

wrong relationship super super low. So

you're in the wrong relationship, we'll help you identify that. We'll help you break up with your co-founder. And then

there's another co-founder literally in the same office as you for you to test the very next day.

>> But what about the other co-founder?

What do they >> They also have someone else to test the very next day. You know, we we we don't see ourselves as an incubator or accelerator. We call ourselves a talent

accelerator. We call ourselves a talent investor. I

investor. I >> I mean, >> everything you say is so true. I've been

stuck like maybe for years when I was very young but yeah was in good companies actually the business was good growing up growing growing

growing but then you had one of the co-founders who was like what the [ __ ] are you doing here like and it's just the guy you like hey you what are you doing for the next five years uh well I

know you know nothing I'm free right now yeah you want to create a company yeah sure what is it about yeah I don't And this is this is why, you know, why do early stage companies fail? It's

often co-founder breakups. You know, if you have a great co-founding team, it doesn't matter if the idea sucks because you will iterate to the point where you get to a good idea.

Maybe the problem is that in uh co-ounding a business in creating a business there is like there is a printup that is signed like

super early like and then you're like okay we've signed this status we signed this agreement uh uh in French we call

the pact dissoci like and and then after a couple of months and then well you don't want a divorce after six months, right? It's not like an option. It's

right? It's not like an option. It's

it's too late. You've raised money maybe or you're doing you're in business. Um

>> yeah, I we we think about breakups in days, not months or weeks. As in how can you within 48 hours make a call on whether somebody is the right co-founder for you? Um so the thing we

for you? Um so the thing we >> how can you make how can you make sure in 48 hours? It's amazing how people do have intuition, but they they suppress that intuition because they think, you

know, they've watched HBO Silicon Valley or the Social Network and they think they have a view of what a co-founder should be like. But the the number one thing we get people to focus on is productivity. Like in this relationship,

productivity. Like in this relationship, do I feel like I'm the most productive I've ever been? Now, in some ways that sounds obvious, right? But it's amazing how many people I speak to and they're like, "Oh yeah, you know, it's been, you know, we haven't made that much

progress, but you know, next, you know, the next two days we'll make progress."

And it's like, "No, no, you're just deluding yourself." Um, and I'm always

deluding yourself." Um, and I'm always amazed at when you see somebody change co-founding teams, they change as a person. Like when they get into the

person. Like when they get into the right co-founding team, they are a better founder. They're a more

better founder. They're a more productive founder. They're more

productive founder. They're more inspired. Um, and it's so, this is kind

inspired. Um, and it's so, this is kind of why I'm so obsessive about these co-founder dynamics because it is not only about creating a great business. is

about who do you become as a founder.

Who you become as a founder is in relation to who you co-ound with because you will become stronger in the areas that they're weaker. You will become weaker in the areas they're stronger. Um

but yeah, we always p push on this idea of, you know, productivity is traction for teams. If you're super productive, keep going, work it out. If you're not, count it immediately.

Entrepreneur modelreneur Foreage stripes adapt.

Go to market.

When do you know it's not the right person? What are the signs?

person? What are the signs?

>> In the very very early days, it's amazing how um coming up with an idea that idea generation is can be a real tripping point but quite a hard one to

understand. So one of the mistakes we

understand. So one of the mistakes we see people make is they are so let's say we're co-ounding together um and you have a couple of ideas you're interested in. I have a couple of ideas that I'm

in. I have a couple of ideas that I'm interested in. And so it feels in some

interested in. And so it feels in some way the obvious thing to do is that we'll just we'll just work on all of those ideas simultaneously and one of them will come out as the front runner.

Now that's actually a terrible idea. And

the reason why it's a terrible idea is that you're probably actually holding on to your ideas and pushing your ideas harder. I'm pushing my ideas harder. And

harder. I'm pushing my ideas harder. And

so we're not actually having the hard conversation about what is the idea that we're both deeply excited by. And also

if you're um running ideas in parallel, you aren't actually deep diving on any one specific idea. So you're slowing down the information gathering process.

So what we always push founders to do is pick one idea, one starting point that you both agree on and then speedrun that as fast as possible to the point where you don't think there's anything else there and then either change to a new

idea or iterate that idea or change your co-founder. Um, but I think that's one

co-founder. Um, but I think that's one of the mistakes we definitely see is where people are like, cool, we're trying four ideas simultaneously and it feels like you're mitigating risk, but actually you're really significantly increasing the risk in your co-founder

relationship.

How important is the ID paternity? um the uh the ownership

ID paternity? um the uh the ownership I've I've I've run I I created like what

we called um um founder um sorry uh um studio a startup studio right um uh and

each time it was even harder when those startups were booming like because at some point you had like we had like

probably 20 30% of the the company as a startup studio and the CEO didn't have the idea and it was a drama each time.

Uh how does it work at Entrepreneurs First?

>> So our job is to help you come up with an idea and help you as a co-founding pair to come up with your idea, the idea that you are most interested in. in the

early days of EF now you know 10 years ago um we did try giving people ideas and what we found is that they just didn't feel the level of agency or um

ownership over those ideas and so when times got tough they would flake out you know it wasn't the thing that they really loved and so what we push is this idea of what is your edge what is the thing that you have previously invested

time energy headsp space into learning about working on that should be your starting point and use that as a starting point to understand you know what is the space that you can dominate

um I think the idea paternity thing you know who gets to own an idea one of the reasons why I think it's so important that our companies get exposure to the US and and now we take all of our companies to the US one of the reasons

why is that the competition the level of competition there and understanding that basically there are a bunch of companies that have an idea that is pretty much

95% identical to yours makes you better.

it forces you to understand how you're going to differentiate. Um, and it forces you to be as productive as possible because that can be one of the ways you win. So, um, I think sometimes people shy away from the US because it

is seen as too competitive. Um, but

actually the reason to go is for the competition. The competition will make

competition. The competition will make you better. It will help you refine your

you better. It will help you refine your idea. Uh, so I think you know ideas are

idea. Uh, so I think you know ideas are 10 a penny. What really matters is execution.

>> Um, so you don't ever come with ideas.

You don't sometime come and say you should do this. No. Do you do you do the opposite? Do you sometimes say, "Oh, no.

opposite? Do you sometimes say, "Oh, no.

This idea is is a piece of crap."

>> Not quite the terminology we use, but yes. Yeah, we do. Um,

yes. Yeah, we do. Um,

>> but it's really, really hard. You know,

as an investor, you are looking for the contrarian ideas, right? You're looking

for the non-obvious ideas. And so, you do have to be really open-minded to what a good idea looks like. Um,

>> what is the best nonobvious idea you've invested in?

>> Best non-obvious idea. Um, I mean, we've invested in some, you know, we've done a lot of deep tech investing. Um, and we don't always get it right. You know, in 2018, we put a bunch of money into quantum computing. It was just too early

quantum computing. It was just too early for quantum computing startups at that stage and particularly for our model.

Uh, but the nice thing about our model is that because we're, you know, investing small amounts of money, we want to try and invest in anything that sounds sort of even vaguely interesting.

M >> but again the bit that we go back to is if we believe in the founder we will take a risk on the idea even if we don't love it. Um you know I was recently

love it. Um you know I was recently proved wrong by a founder that was building an edtech and like edtech is not a space that is is one that I love.

You know it is a really really hard space to build a a company at scale with a good business model >> apart from Dualingo. There's like no freaking amazing atte like like

worldwide. again that's you know it's a

worldwide. again that's you know it's a BTOC model rather than a um selling to schools and we had one founder recently who was completely obsessed with the space and the first iteration the idea

was kind of okay but over the last 12 months he's turned it into something super super interesting and something that I would never have guessed you know from the first time that we met him started working with him I would not have guessed that he would get to where

he is today but again that's why we invest in the people not the ideas because he is fantastic he's such an exceptional individual such an exceptional team and it's that um level

of customer obsession and biased to action that meant he was able to get to an idea that actually now I think is going to be huge.

Uh you know what I have I have a lot of frustration around edtech actually I do we we've had that talk with the several people uh because I've I've So how old are your kids? Can

we >> uh they are three and five.

>> Three and five. Okay. So at five like probably five. Yeah. Five unless most of

probably five. Yeah. Five unless most of like most of the people around tech you don't want them to get any screen at all. But at some point for the second

all. But at some point for the second one he will get at five because the first one will get them at Yeah. Uh but

you you just tell them look you can do this on the on the tablet but it's only math right and you get this good math application and it's fun and it helps them count and learn mathematics and

you're like this is freaking great right and but I I I haven't found like uh on

every single uh um topics like geography history math uh French English well actually Dolingo is working quite even

for kids but really yeah yeah yeah it can be quite uh early but so yeah I think there's something to crack in this area >> and I you know it is going to change but

the school system in any country is going to take a long long time to change um so yeah I think the kind of direct to consumer model um for uh edtech is

interesting and and we will see big change in the next couple of years um but I think to actually change the school system. It's going to take a

school system. It's going to take a while.

>> Yeah, >> there's a lot of legacy a lot of legacy people, infrastructure beliefs that that are going to take a while to shift.

>> Let's not open the AI topic right now, but I think AI is is going to change a lot of things in in that area. Um, but

if we want to get back to the um um founders interaction uh so you help them find their co-founder, which can be like a team of two, three, is there a magical

number? The magic number is two. Um, so

number? The magic number is two. Um, so

yeah, you can there are a bunch of examples of, you know, large co-founding teams, but it's typically where people have known each other for a long time.

Um, if you are co-founding with someone who is a stranger, um, our strong recommendation is a team of two.

>> Is it based on numbers? I mean, what you're saying, but because three, I mean, sounds somehow interesting because you'll get a balance.

>> Everyone wants to be in a team of three.

Um, my push on that would be it radically increases relationship complexity. Um, and so if you don't have

complexity. Um, and so if you don't have a deep relationship previously, introducing a third person radically increases the communication overhead, the alignment overhead. And that's

particularly true if you're trying to develop an idea together. If one person has an idea and is building a team around them, that can work. Um, but if you're trying to co-create an idea, it's very, very hard. The other thing I would

push on is the most expensive decision you will ever make is having a co-founder because they're going to take, you know, 50% of your company. Um,

if you have >> really can it be 30?

>> Well, it depends what your view is on that person as in like do you see that person as somebody who is going to co-create this company with you for the next 10 years? If yes, the fact you've been working on it for two months before

them or had, you know, a year's more work experience is not going to justify that extra 20% that you get. Um,

>> sorry I interrupted. Yeah, but it's important. It was my next question. But

important. It was my next question. But

yeah, >> but you know, it's so expensive to have a co-founder that adding a third co-founder. Whenever we see somebody

co-founder. Whenever we see somebody adding a third co-founder, the question we always ask is, couldn't they be a first employee? Like, you're looking at

first employee? Like, you're looking at a radically different level of equity compensation for a co-founder versus a f first employee. Very

first employee. Very >> interesting.

>> Um, and so my push is always like, is it actually worth the cost? Uh, and it's amazing how when you actually put it like that, often it's, you know, often people don't believe that's the case.

The reason people often end up in threes is they just don't want to have a hard conversation. There's a hard

conversation. There's a hard conversation where they know that one person is probably superfluous and they're just trying to be nice. Um, and

you know, as a founder of a company, one of the things you'll learn very quickly is that much of the work you have to do is going to be hard conversations with people. Um, hard conversations with team

people. Um, hard conversations with team members, with investors, whatever it may be. And so actually, you know, flexing

be. And so actually, you know, flexing that muscle from the start, uh, and making sure you set set yourself up for success with the right number of co-founders is a is a good way to start.

Let's dig into hard conversation. What

do you mean by hard conversation? Uh,

how important is it to have them? Um,

um, what are the main topics of a hard conversation you should have? M if you if you speak to you know first-time founders or I suppose even second time founders and and get them to reflect on

what has been hardest it'll often be people related stuff you know either it's the wrong co-founder or wrong early hires or they hired their friend or their brother or their lover and then

had to have a really difficult conversation when it wasn't working out and the common theme is everyone has those conversations too late and I definitely from you know from founding

EF and entrepreneurs as a weird investor in that, you know, we're a team of 100 people. Um, we're actually structured

people. Um, we're actually structured like a company rather than like a VC firm. And, you know, I look back on the

firm. And, you know, I look back on the early days of Yes. And there's so many hard conversations that I should have had, but you sort of shy away from because it would be awkward and you don't really have the skills yet.

There's a book I absolutely love on this that I recommend to to first- time founders called Fierce Conversations by Susan Scott. And what I love about it is

Susan Scott. And what I love about it is it gives you a bunch of frameworks for how to have the kind of conversations that make your stomach clench. You know,

the ones that you're dreading. And it

both helps you understand why you should be having those conversations and then gives you the structure to have those conversations. So any first- time

conversations. So any first- time listening to this, I would I would strongly recommend uh reading that book.

>> Say it again. The name of the book, >> it's called Fierce Conversations by Susan Scott.

>> Okay. Um do you have an example of of or or some things from that framework that could work or some tips?

>> The bit that I um often think of I'm quite conflict averse h I'm quite conflict averse and so my fear having these conversations you know having one of these fierce conversations is that um

you know it's going to be awful for the other person and it'll be awful for me and it'll just be it's just going to be awful. And then the framing that she has

awful. And then the framing that she has in the book that I really like is everything will be better the sooner this conversation happens. You know this conversation is an unlock. Um if you

haven't had the fierce conversation you are on a path that is wrong for both of you. And so the sooner that you can have

you. And so the sooner that you can have this conversation it will be an unlock for both of you. Now even if that means that you're firing somebody um you know it's better that it happens now and that everyone is able to move on rather than

delaying it.

Alice, it's a bit early to talk about personal stuff, but now she's looking at me like, what is he gonna say? Um,

gonna say? Um, since you're talking about all of these and the choice of your partner and the the hard conversation and everything, my

question is how far does that interfere in your personal life? I mean, uh, is it like completely

life? I mean, uh, is it like completely different or do you use those recipes with your husband? Oh, as my husband says, um, you're managing me. I'm not

allowed to use my manager voice with him. So,

him. So, um, >> babes, we have to get this conversation converation right now.

>> I mean, I do think at one point you could use EF as a way for creating marriages because, you know, really stress testing relationships and enabling people to get past um, small talk and actually have those fierce

conversations. But, but no, my my

conversations. But, but no, my my husband does not enjoy it when I use um any sort of work uh, structures or frameworks on him.

Well, it should be kind of the same at some point. Um, how do do you identify

some point. Um, how do do you identify uh when you need to get that hard conversation?

>> Um, I mean it's different with I mean with co-founders it's it's very much productivity and then with um hires and people on your team I think it's really

hard. Um again productivity is super

hard. Um again productivity is super important. Uh but sometimes it may not

important. Uh but sometimes it may not be productivity. Sometimes it might be

be productivity. Sometimes it might be fit and you know that's such a tricky thing to pin down. It's such a um uh it's sort of less in fashion now, but about 5 years ago, you know, everyone

was talking about the cultural fit interview, and I think that's sort of gone slightly out of fashion now. But

there is this thing of >> sometimes you can have somebody who is totally brilliant in your team, but they are the wrong fit. They either have a wrong view of what you're trying to create and actually think that's probably some of the mistakes that I've

made is where you have somebody in the team who is brilliant, but they are trying to build something that is different to what you're trying to build. Um, and I think that those can be

build. Um, and I think that those can be some really hard things to identify because you can see their brilliance and their ability, but actually if you're not fully aligned and if you just ultimately trying to build different things that is going to be more

destructive for the company than than you know having them having them out.

>> How important is it to have um like that fit but even like fun or like good time you know at work? I mean, do

you see some companies where like guys, girls are like totally boring and like like not fun but like very successful? I

mean, you don't have to be fun. I don't

know if all of those guys we're talking in the tech area are the funniest person on earth, but uh you know what I'm saying? Is it is it important?

saying? Is it is it important?

>> I suppose it depends on your definition of fun. Um, if you are if you're in

of fun. Um, if you are if you're in startups and if you're particularly you're a founder, it probably is because you want a large part of your life's

meaning and fun to come from work. And I

love what I do. I feel so lucky that my job, my career is getting to work with some of the most interesting and exciting people in the world and helping them unleash their potential on the world. Um, and these these founders keep

world. Um, and these these founders keep me on my toes. Like they are not easy people to work with, but I love that. I

love that about them. So, do I have fun at work every day? Yes, I do. But I have fun because it's hard. And it's not necessarily, you know, that we play ping pong every day. It's that the work

itself is fun and gives me joy and challenges me. Um, and so, you know,

challenges me. Um, and so, you know, when I look at our the founders that I work with, I think ultimately they do have a lot of fun. You know, they hire people that they want to work with.

They're working on a problem they really care about. I suppose when I see

care about. I suppose when I see founders who aren't having fun, it's often because they've gone after a customer that they don't want to spend time with. You know, they don't want to

time with. You know, they don't want to go to a conference with a thousand of, you know, insert customer type. Um, and

then, you know, I'm always surprised when there's a founder who's, you know, 22 and is obsessed with what I think is actually a pretty boring industry or pretty boring customer and they're so excited to go to, I don't know, Denver

to hang out for two days with this particular group of um, uh, customers. I

would probably uh put more in a sort of less fun category. So I think you need to understand what your version of fun is. But the great thing about startups

is. But the great thing about startups is I just think they are a more fun place to work. But it it's not I don't think it's about the kind of peripheral benefits. It's about the core work

benefits. It's about the core work itself. You're solving a problem you

itself. You're solving a problem you love. You have high agency, high

love. You have high agency, high autonomy and that is the fun. Um, you

know, that said, we also at EF we take the whole company away for a week to um, we've done Italy, we've done Spain, uh, we've done Lisbon. Um, and there's some work, but there's also some fun.

>> All of your companies then?

>> No, we take my whole company, the whole EF team. Um, so how big is the F team?

EF team. Um, so how big is the F team?

>> 100 people.

>> Okay. So, let's get back to the the what you do, right? So, um, is it like like we would call promotions? Like do you

have like a every 3 months, 6 months uh um you will recruit new founders batches? Yeah. Yeah. How often?

batches? Yeah. Yeah. How often?

>> Um so we have batches that run across uh Europe and India and the US. Um and so we have >> different three different batches.

>> Uh so every site has multiple batches a year. So there's normally a start date

year. So there's normally a start date every couple of months.

>> But you don't mix Indian and Americans and and Europeans. So every batch starts off as about 50 people um and for the first eight weeks you are just finding a co-founder within that pool and then

after eight weeks you get access to everyone who's currently going through EF. So you know our job um is we want to

EF. So you know our job um is we want to help you find the right co-founder. We

want to help you find the right idea and so we want to give you access to as many potential co-founders as possible. Would

that be a good idea to try to mix like uh Indians and Americans and Europeans like very early on and create companies that might have chances to be bigger worldwide.

>> So we have a great company called Hanomi where um one of the founders um Dishi she was going through our Bangalore cohort >> and it just so happened that the perfect co-founder for her Marco was going

through a cohort were running in Europe.

All >> right.

>> Um and he once he met her he basically jumped on a plane the next day. you

know, they did a zoom call. He jumped on a plane the next day and went out and worked in Bangalore with her for a couple of months. Um, they moved super fast. The company was doing really well.

fast. The company was doing really well.

We invested. They then moved out to the US, raised from some incredible investors in the US.

>> Um, and it's one of those amazing stories where, you know, there's no way they could have met any other.

>> That's why it's important that it could be interesting.

>> They both had these sort of interesting niche skill sets and and niche of interest and um and so yeah, you know, removing those international boundaries is is super important. You want to find the right co-founder for you wherever

they are in the world.

>> So, okay. So, how many people in a batch? Like

batch? Like >> about 50.

>> About 50. How many candidates >> that apply?

>> Yeah.

>> Um, so we get thousands of applications a year. Actually, one of the things that

a year. Actually, one of the things that has changed in the last year is applications this well this year 2025 applications are double what 2024 applications were. Okay.

applications were. Okay.

>> And that's largely well I think it's largely because we've made the shift where now every company we build we take out to the US.

>> Okay. Um, and that's just super popular right now. Uh, you know, we see more and

right now. Uh, you know, we see more and more young founders wanting to point towards the US um, from very early on in their founding journey.

>> You won't have to to buy a a trump card for each and every one of them because it's going to cost you a lot of money.

>> Yeah. Be pretty expensive. No, the the O1 visa works pretty well.

>> Um, and um, so thousands, how do you select them? What kind of people is it

select them? What kind of people is it first? like is it like a men woman age?

first? like is it like a men woman age?

Uh I mean >> it's typically early career. Um so

definitely getting younger and younger.

Um so I'd say anywhere between 18 and sort of 28ish.

Um you know we want people who are still at the beginning of their careers at the beginning of their journey.

>> Um we do get more >> I wouldn't wouldn't be alone then.

>> We can make an exception for you. Uh um

we uh do get a lot of applications from men. Um we do a bunch of outreach

men. Um we do a bunch of outreach specifically to try and increase the number of women who are aware of entrepreneurship and make sure that they see this as something that they they want to do and actually we have some of

the best um sort of gender uh ratios in the in the business where normally it's like about 30% of our cohorts are women.

Um and then nationalitywise, you know, we we ran a residency in a castle in Germany this summer. Um and we had 22 different nationalities from all over Europe and all over the world there. So,

um, we get a ton of applications, but I suppose the other thing that we do and, um, that we invest a lot of time and and money into is going and finding people, you know, really getting into local communities, getting into local clubs,

building our own communities, and really trying to work out, you know, who is the very, very best, the most exceptional potential founder within that group.

>> Yeah. because at some point maybe the the golden nugget might be I mean not applying to uh EF right so you might

have sometimes to find some people I mean the golden nugget doesn't jump into your face you have to go in in a mine dig dig yeah so you do that >> we do a lot of that yeah um

>> we run events we build clubs and communities we run chess tournaments we run um you know, history of ambition reading groups. We run hackathons. Um we run

groups. We run hackathons. Um we run anything that we think ambitious, smart people will be interested in and use that as a way to get to know them. Um

and sometimes it's, you know, the people that that come to these um groups aren't necessarily always the people we end up working with. It might be a friend of

working with. It might be a friend of theirs. Uh but you know, my team, you

theirs. Uh but you know, my team, you know, why do we have 100 people? It's

because we have most of the team going out and we call them talent investors.

their job is to go and identify the most exceptional potential founders. And

that's really hard, right? Because they

haven't necessarily founded anything at that point. Um, their job is to go out

that point. Um, their job is to go out and kind of sniff these people out, go digging.

>> Uh, and yeah, it works. It works pretty well.

>> How do you compare it to yourself to YC Y Combinator? I mean, um, we've recorded

Y Combinator? I mean, um, we've recorded last year at YC. I understand it's a different um, >> model, right? But still at some point

there is a part of competition because some of the people you want at EF might go to YC and the other side around.

>> Yeah. I mean YC is the most incredible uh incredible investor and um I mean typically they still invest in uh companies that have ideas and co-founders. Um so we're really looking

co-founders. Um so we're really looking for people who are one stage before that and actually you know some of our companies then go on to do YC afterwards. Um uh but yeah, we we go one

afterwards. Um uh but yeah, we we go one stage before. So we're really looking

stage before. So we're really looking for people at the very beginning of considering being a founder. Um they

might have an idea, but they aren't necessarily 100% sure it's the right idea. They're looking for a co-founder.

idea. They're looking for a co-founder.

They want the kind of hands-on matchmaking service that we can provide.

Um so yeah, it's a slightly different model. You know, we call it talent

model. You know, we call it talent investing because it really is about the people and providing a service to a person rather than to a company.

What is the best profile coming to you?

I mean, the best kind of person you like and you you see her him and you're like, "Yeah, I like that."

>> I mean, always as an investor, you have to be so careful about pattern matching.

But while we're talking about pattern matching, what do we look for? Um, we're

like builders, you know, people who can create things, people who have technical backgrounds. Um,

backgrounds. Um, having a very strong bias to action. So

that bias to build, the bias to create and having that speed and urgency that comes with it. Um,

one of the things that I think as Europeans we are probably under indexed on um, and particularly now I'm working with more American talent as well is finding individuals who are aggressive.

Um, you know, who who are genuinely playing to win, who are looking to dominate a market and destroy everything else in their path. Um, and I think what's interesting about working with

Europeans, and you know, as a European that now lives in the US, I'm definitely now kind of unpicking this more and more is in Europe, the way that we're brought up and the kind of one of the cultural

norms is a lot of this stuff around ambition and aggression is often repressed. Um, you know, it's something

repressed. Um, you know, it's something that is not culturally okay to talk about. It's something that is not

about. It's something that is not culturally okay to um say to your parents or to your aunts and uncles or to your grandparents. uh whereas in the US that is much more normalized and so

part of our process at EF is helping young Europeans kind of peel back the layers of cultural norms that are constraining them to some extent and giving them a space and um you know you your your tagline for the podcast is you

know it's it's about the people you surround yourself by you become the average of the people you surround yourself by >> and I think EF has become a safe space for young Europeans that want to have outlandish levels of ambition outlandish

levels of aggression um and they want to be surrounded by people who embrace that and encourage that and actually you know they they pull off you know stripping them off of all the nicities and and kind of

politeness that we we have in Europe. Um

and again I think this is why giving them exposure to the US and really understanding how Americans think and behave and you know part of the DNA that

makes the American dream um uh viable is this intense ambition and this intense aggression. And I think before I moved

aggression. And I think before I moved to the US, I definitely underestimated just how big a delta there was between how they think in in the US about this and how we think about it in Europe.

>> Interesting. Um

the way you um you talk about like um aggressivity or uh pling destroy everything else is actually um when you talk about the US

at the moment we're talking right is is terms that are very much American that we're like uh I mean we're kind of this

post uh uh how do they call that uh for a few years everything had to be like very uh polished and now we're getting back into these terminologies, right? Uh

and it's true that it's uh sometime a bit shocking when you use those words in France, maybe in the UK, I don't know, but and you're on the BBC or in Radio France and you're like,

>> who the [ __ ] are those like entrepreneurs being like ah, you know?

Um and I don't know how or where I want to put myself in here in on that field. I

mean, I I I think it's it's important, but uh um I don't know. I'd rather build than destroy. You know what I'm saying? It's

destroy. You know what I'm saying? It's

it's it's interesting.

>> Yeah. I mean, I think we should all be building rather than destroying. I think

it's important to understand what game you're playing. And if you are a founder,

playing. And if you are a founder, you're playing a global game. You know,

you should be trying to build a globally important company. And you know,

important company. And you know, particularly if you're building in Europe, you pretty early on have to think about internationalization. You

know, you have to go you have to go abroad.

>> And why I think going to the US early is so important is it really shows you what you're competing with. Um, and helps you understand a mindset that is it is very

different from the European mindset. Um,

and you can choose whether you want to take it on or not. And you can choose whether you want to be like that. But

you need to know that it exists. Um, and

you need to expose yourself to it. And

you know the before I moved to America, I spent 3 months a year there um for 3 years, which was a great initial kind of baptism of fire, but it's really only

moving there that I've fully understood the American psyche um and what we as Europeans can learn from um or or kind of take inspiration from.

>> It seems to me that um the differences are growing now. I mean

between Europe and the US they weren't that big 10 years ago were they? Is it

is it a misconception? Well, I mean it 10 years ago when I um started EF the European ecosystem was completely different as in the European ecosystem

has done this incredible rapid fire transformation where you know it is a one of the best ecosystems in the world like just the depth of capital and startups that are now being produced.

It's it's incredible. Um, and so like what are the, you know, the differences between the two ecosystems? Like

ultimately my push is we can we should be trying to build the European ecosystem. We should be trying to build

ecosystem. We should be trying to build it and make it as successful as possible. But the way that we do that is

possible. But the way that we do that is not by um rejecting the US. It's by

working out how to build a bridge and connection between the two and working out how can we bring the best of Europe and take inspiration from the magic that is in the US. you know, they are they

are the best in the world at building um great companies. You know, they're

great companies. You know, they're building trillion dollar companies. We

we in Europe have not have not nailed that.

>> Um and actually one um young German founder that I was speaking to, he put it really really nicely. You know, he said if you want to be a great actor, you've got to go to Hollywood. Um you

know, you've got to see what good looks like, you've got to have the connections. And I think the more that

connections. And I think the more that we can understand that building a bridge and you know every founder doing a sort of pilgrimage to Silicon Valley learning what goes on there building the

connections that will be useful for both today and in the future as they grow I think that's how we can help strengthen the European ecosystem >> and in terms of capital at the end if you do that will all of those company

become American companies will it just make it even more true you know what I'm saying or because when I talked to Nicolola Den last here at YC. I mean, he

was telling me you have to become an American company. Uh, if you want to

American company. Uh, if you want to apply at YC, uh, and like not just an American subsidiary, the American HQ,

um, um, that's compulsory. Um, but then at the end that means we're kind of destroying value for Europe. Um, what's

your point on that?

>> One of the things we're seeing is that more and more young founders want to go to the US. So partly for me as a founder of a company that has a product, my customer is telling me they want to go to the US and so we want to make that

happen. Um but there's lots of different

happen. Um but there's lots of different models that you can use. So when I look at how our companies have used the US as a platform, um got an incredible company

called uh Fleetcraft and that was founded by uh the CEO Finn is from from Ireland. Um and they went out to the US.

Ireland. Um and they went out to the US.

They raised from SUSA which is one of the world's best um seed VCs, you know, investor in Robin Hood and Flexport and all these great companies.

>> Um and then they came back and HQed in London. Um uh and largely it was because

London. Um uh and largely it was because they have customers all over the world.

They've got customers in Asia and and Australia. And so actually being on a

Australia. And so actually being on a GMT time zone and being based in Europe made most sense for them. We've got some companies that have gone out and permanently relocated to the US, but that have brought over European talent

to the US and used that kind of European talent pool. one of our um larger

talent pool. one of our um larger companies, Cleo, which is a financial management app that makes, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue a year, uh they actually turned

off their European pro uh product um and fully focused on the US, but are HQ and the team is based in London. So, I think it's it's understanding that there's

multiple different ways to to use the US market. But you know if you look at a

market. But you know if you look at a lot of the larger um uh European success stories they've taken capital from the US you know so it's it's really this idea that the connection between the two

the bridge between the two will make the European ecosystem stronger and it's not just about just fully exporting people we will see a blend there's there's multiple ways to do it

>> 100% uh I understand that we cannot just do without the US and it's a way to grow faster my point is that uh at some point

we as European we to fight for to make Europe great again. You know what I'm saying?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And um

my belief is that by doing building this bridge, that is one of the ways that we do it. You know, there is a very um

do it. You know, there is a very um nationalistic approach to startups often. You know, it's British venture

often. You know, it's British venture capital for British companies and you know, French capital for French companies. and we will all be strong

companies. and we will all be strong stronger by creating more connections between all of the world's ecosystems. So I think this is more about um how do we take inspiration from the US? How do

we learn from the US? How do we access capital from the US? But I think the way that you do that is by spending time in the US. Um and maybe it's HQing your

the US. Um and maybe it's HQing your company there, maybe it's not. But I

think getting European founders to see that one of the best ways to learn is to get that sort of deep dive into how the very best in the world do this. And

that's an important part of your learning journey as a founder.

do it. It makes me want to open a chapter that I I I didn't expect to open, but uh one of your favorite chapter probably is Brexit.

>> Gosh, I didn't think we'd get there.

Yeah. No, I I'm thinking uh um actually uh a lot of my friends here in Paris uh used to live in London uh because

they're in the financial area. So, you

know, former HSBC, Goldman Sachs or uh Bank of America or I could tell more. Um

and in the financial industry, it has been a great drama, right? I mean,

everybody flew away. Uh um but it seems to me that in the tech area it I don't know the the the tech industry in in the UK is doing very

well, right? So what what happened? Can

well, right? So what what happened? Can

you tell me more about what what was the consequences?

>> I mean I I did not vote for Brexit. It

was not my not my preference. Um

and largely the my my kind of you know two cents on this would be that the ecosystem in London um was getting to a

strong point of maturity at the point where Brexit happened. Um and has continued growing really well. Um

I think the tech ecosystem in London, the tech ecosystem in Paris, in Germany, you know, they they have all continue to grow hugely over the last um kind of 5 years.

>> My my one concern with Brexit, and I think, you know, we'll still see how this plays through um and how it impacts the um tech ecosystem in in the UK is we

have to maintain um uh access to the UK for the best and brightest. And you

know, I think generally for Europe, making sure that we get access to the world's best talent. You know, we you know, what is one one of the best things we have? It's it's our universities. You

we have? It's it's our universities. You

know, we have some of the world's very best universities that genuinely can pull in some of the world's best talent.

And making sure that that remains true.

And I think one of the challenges with Brexit was it it made it look like the UK was, you know, closing its doors to some of those people and and making our universities look less attractive. And

so I suppose that's the bit that I'm you know constantly keeping eye on is where is that flow of exceptional international talent coming from. Um but

you know so far I think the UK where I think the tech sector in the UK is doing is doing an amazing job. Um and has been pretty resilient to Brexit.

>> Yeah. Would have been fast. Would it

have been faster without you think uh for the tech area or >> I you don't know.

>> I think it's it's also tricky because it's all tied up with co right? you know

Brexit happened and then happened and it's very hard to work out what the counterfactor would have been. So EF

started in London, right? Uh and how fast did it go in other countries, France Germany?

>> So we um started investing properly in about 2015. Um and then a couple years

about 2015. Um and then a couple years later, the first office we opened was in Singapore.

>> Um so we went to Asia first and then we opened in uh Berlin and Paris and Hong Kong and India. Uh but really our kind

of first expansion was into Asia and um I don't know if you'll remember but the there was a sort of big um focus on the Asian uh startup ecosystem and growth

there and you know everyone investing in India and China.

>> Um but yeah we've opened EF in many many different places. Um not all those

different places. Um not all those offices still exist.

>> Uh we've done a big consolidation over the last couple of years. Um

>> but yes, we've we've done a lot of international expansion. What was the

international expansion. What was the day one of EF? How did it how or did you give Yeah. Yeah.

>> Uh day one? So we actually started it as a not for profofit. So it started off as a not for-p profofit education company basically >> like Sam Elman.

>> Uh was it was an open AI some kind of not for profofit. Yeah.

>> All the all the best companies change from not for profofit to for profofit.

Well, we'll see.

>> Hopefully you didn't have Elon Musk on the on the board investing in the >> not for not quite. Um so yeah, we started as a not for-p profofit and um uh we actually tried to register as a

charity. The idea was that we were going

charity. The idea was that we were going to help um you know young people straight out of university to learn entrepreneurial skills. And um when we

entrepreneurial skills. And um when we first started, you know, this idea that we were going to focus on individuals, you know, who didn't have an idea, who didn't have a co-found, didn't have a

company was seen as like a complete anathema to the the status quo. And the

push back from VCs was, you know, this is not how it's done. This will not work. Um, you shouldn't do this. Uh, and

work. Um, you shouldn't do this. Uh, and

we kept going to university campuses and our customer would keep on being like, I desperately want this, you know, how do I how do I do this? I remember there's this guy who um we met on our first visit to Cambridge University in the UK

and he had a job at one of the best hedge funds. Um, and he turned it down

hedge funds. Um, and he turned it down to to join EF and the the hedge funds said, you know, whatever they're paying you, we'll we'll double it. and they

were like, "They're not paying me anything." Um, uh, and so there was just

anything." Um, uh, and so there was just such strong pull from customers even though the VC ecosystem told us what we were doing was was a totally crazy idea.

And, you know, I always tell founders this story because it's a great reminder to listen to your customers and and and basically no one else.

>> But the early days of EF, you know, we spent three years as a not for profofit.

It was a hand-to-mouth existence. We had

a team of interns. It was super super scrappy. And we spent three years

scrappy. And we spent three years basically learning how to make it work.

So from when to when >> 2012 to 2015.

>> Okay.

>> And then in 2015 was the first time that we started investing um some incredibly

kind and um uh you know he hopefully saw something in us. He he gave us a million pounds to do our first investments and from that we got our first unicorn. We

got our first $7 million exits and that.

>> So a million pound from your first investor back in 2015.

>> Yeah. And what about just what about the three years before? How did you live yourself? I mean, what?

yourself? I mean, what?

>> We we ran corporate sponsorships. Um but

it was a terrible model because what we were promising them was that, you know, pay us £20,000 um and we will when when they don't build companies, you can try and employ them. But of course, you know, the people that we were going

after, the founders we were going after didn't want to work at any of these companies. And then they actually built

companies. And then they actually built companies and succeeded. So of course they weren't going to work for these companies. So, it was a it was a

companies. So, it was a it was a terrible model and it really didn't scale. Um, and we couldn't invest and it

scale. Um, and we couldn't invest and it was it was just a terrible terrible business model. Um, and I think we were

business model. Um, and I think we were quite resistant to becoming VCs. We

didn't want to become a VC. Like that

wasn't the the plan, which is why we have this very weird corporate structure where we are a company. We run like a company. I'm a CEO of a of a company.

company. I'm a CEO of a of a company.

Uh, and when we invest, we invest off our balance sheet and we take ownership of every company onto our balance sheet.

Um, but it means that we can deliver this incredible product to our customers.

>> It's not a phone. you don't you don't have like firm A B C 1 2 3 it's >> in the past we did as we were building up our reputation and building up our results but now we invest off our

balance sheet so in 2021 um we raised $150 million onto our balance sheet um and that was led by an incredible roster of founders like Reed Hoffman founder of

LinkedIn Patrick and John Collison the founders of Stripe um and that you know now we we invest our balance sheet again so over the last 10 years we've done a mixture of investing off our balance

sheet and through funds.

>> When and how was the tipping point from the charity or the nonprofit uh you were talking about and to the uh uh how do you say commercial uh

>> it was really this this amazing man taking a risk on us and giving us what was an enormous sum of money for us back then. You know, he gave us a million

then. You know, he gave us a million pounds and at the time we'd been living on about £100,000 a year. So like it was a big big step up. Uh and actually being able to use that capital to invest was was incredible.

>> What happened? How did that happen? I

mean >> well you know it's one of those things isn't it where it's one of those stories where it's sort of um you you know how do you recreate this luck? I got

introduced to him.

>> Can we say who is this or >> he's a very private guy.

>> Okay.

>> Um I got introduced to him by somebody who didn't even know him >> and um went and met him for like 20 minutes. We had a nice chat, didn't hear

minutes. We had a nice chat, didn't hear from him for about a month, and then he invited us for for lunch and then at lunch offered us this money. And it just felt like, you know, it felt like one of those Cinderella stories um where, you

know, it's sort of too good to be true, but uh you know, this is in some ways it kind of reinforces one of our deep beliefs about talent investing. You

know, it's about investing in people.

It's about taking a risk on people who, you know, we were super young. We were

very much at the beginning of our careers. We didn't really know anything

careers. We didn't really know anything about VC. and having someone take that

about VC. and having someone take that risk on us was an absolutely, you know, transformational moment. And I think

transformational moment. And I think we've been so lucky to have, you know, and Reed Hoffman, who's been on our board now for seven years, he invested in EF very, very early on and um, you

know, was willing to put pretty significant sum of capital behind us to try a model that still at that point everyone thought was crazy.

>> Do you remember that lunch? I remember

that meeting very well because we um we went to go and see him at his office at LinkedIn and um >> No, sorry. The the first sorry, we'll get back to >> Oh, the first >> the first lunch with the 1 million quid.

I mean, uh >> I do remember it very well.

>> And what what did you say with Matt like going out of this like what the [ __ ] happened? Like

happened? Like >> Well, it was one of those moments where we just didn't know if we should take it seriously. Um

seriously. Um >> because it just it felt so we we were so on the edge of giving up. Um it it had been such a hand-to-mouth existence and we were very much you know we'd left

these you know glittering jobs at Mackenzie. All of our friends at

Mackenzie. All of our friends at Mackenzie had left and we were out doing incredible exciting high prestige things and we were running this tiny not for-p profofit that was producing 10 companies

a year and that no one really took seriously and that sort of you know a we had no money but b just that slog of we've done three years and have we wasted our time. Is this all a complete

mistake? and having someone actually

mistake? and having someone actually take us seriously when no one else did was the most incredible feeling. But

also, we were very skeptical that it was actually true.

>> And do you understand? Can you explain what happened? I mean um because

what happened? I mean um because obviously you're going out of Mckenzie, both of you. It's like like glamorous like you're too young uh confirmed uh

professional and you're you're building something great and then >> after 3 years and what you're saying what I feel is like like it's like >> the big I mean you're you're losing the

game right it's it feels like this what what made this guy what happened can you >> why did I I don't know why he did it um he's a very >> Did you have like flames did you have a

grand did you have like something burning inside or still like >> I mean we still wanted to keep going. We

still wanted to do it but it it was becoming pretty untenable that could we keep paying ourselves? Were we wasting our time? Like you know I one of the

our time? Like you know I one of the questions you often get asked as a founder of now a more mature company is like you know um what is the most stressful time in your history? And like

now things get stressful because I've got a lot of people's jobs on the line.

and managing, you know, we've we're managing $750 million worth of capital.

That's our AUM. You know, there's there's a lot on the line, but actually the early days were way way harder. I

think that existential dread in the early days of being a founder where you're like, am I wasting my time? I

know that I'm a high potential, smart, ambitious person. Is this just the wrong

ambitious person. Is this just the wrong thing? And I think there's no sort of

thing? And I think there's no sort of dread like it and no fear like it. But

was it like uh you know at some point you came to him and said well we're going to for profofit now we need1 million pound.

>> No it was >> or he said that to you. I mean

>> he was going to donate it to the the not for profofit. Um uh but it was

for profofit. Um uh but it was incredibly complex and we couldn't make it work. Um and we couldn't scale the

it work. Um and we couldn't scale the not for profofit. There was no way we'd be able to get out of sort of the cycle of doing 10 companies a year. Um and you know now we're doing 100 companies a year and we would never have been able

to do that as not for profofit. So um he yeah he took he took a big risk on us and we were very grateful.

>> Um for the people listening the the the way I can explain you said it's on your balance sheet right now. It's not a found. So the way a found works is that

found. So the way a found works is that there is a a company uh that manages founds. the found, the first found, then

founds. the found, the first found, then the second found, then a third found, and you get like a first found that will be like

um can you say a cluster like a silo where um with maybe 50 million euros and you will invest those 50 million euros

within the next three four years and you will expect >> to get back that money and to close the fund after like 7 8 9 10 11 years

something like this and you will uh send the money back with an an expected uh um profit, right? Um when you put that on

profit, right? Um when you put that on your balance sheet, that must uh what is the expectation for the people investing in EF right now? What what what do I

get? When do I get uh can you explain?

get? When do I get uh can you explain?

>> Yeah. So the idea is that you the investors still get distributions. Um so

as we build and sell companies and you know we've exited companies to Meta and Spotify and Twitter and like as those distributions come in we can return that capital to investors.

>> So every every time you sell a company you will you will distribute to the people who have >> so the way it works is that we will keep um enough capital on our balance sheet to enable operations for another year or

two and then anything in surplus of that is distributed to our shareholders. But

the nice thing for shareholders is if you think about in a fund, you're only getting access to the companies that are invested in for that say 3year active period.

>> The nice thing for investors investing in EF is that they are getting access to everything we have built and everything we will build in the future.

>> Um, so it's it's an unusual model. I I

don't think there's any other company or any other fund that's structured in this way. Um, but our investors love it

way. Um, but our investors love it because you're basically able to take a bet not just on what we're doing today, but on as our brand grows and as our results grow, you're getting access to everything we build in the future.

>> Interesting. Um, and what is the deal with the the companies uh with the sorry the the founders?

>> Uh, so we invest um they get access to $250,000 of investment. Um we also provide a

of investment. Um we also provide a stipend as they go through the program or we're now running residencies as well. So we have multiple products now.

well. So we have multiple products now.

One is um a non-residenty uh one is a residency which we're running in the US.

So young Europeans can apply to go and live in our pretty incredible um new uh house in in the mission in in San Francisco.

>> No way. How big is it?

>> It's enormous. Um and it's very cool.

It's a one of those traditional, you know, San Francisco Victorian houses.

Um, and uh, we pay for your living costs, your food, basically make it as easy as possible for you to just focus on building your company. Um, and then once you found your co-founder, once you've developed your idea, we then

invest $250,000. Um, and then you get

invest $250,000. Um, and then you get access to another three months of support to get ready for demo day. And

then demo day is in San Francisco with 200 partner level individuals from some of the world's best VCs.

>> Okay. So, it's eight weeks. First, you

go in the house for eight weeks. Then if

you invest you get an extra three months in the house.

>> No, once you get the once you get the funding you then have to um survive on your own and you know find your find your own place to live.

>> And uh what do you get in exchange of the 250k?

>> So we take it's structured as 125k for 8% and then a further 125k as a MFN which is a kind of convertible note that um converts at somewhere around 1%

typically.

>> Okay. So uh they can give it back to you uh this uh or you can convert or it's no >> no no so it's a um future investment.

Yeah. Okay. So you get 8% plus one.

Okay. So at the end you're slightly >> about 10% if it works for >> Yeah. It's about 9%.

>> Yeah. It's about 9%.

>> Yeah. Nine. Okay. Um and what what do the for the found who comes because I remember when you we used to have that startup studio most of

the funds didn't like really much the startup studios uh you know what I'm saying they were like kind of they have too much on the on the cap table uh plus

>> I mean what the [ __ ] are they doing here right kind of for like 250k do they really have 10% like wow Oh >> yeah. I mean, you don't come to you

>> yeah. I mean, you don't come to you don't come to EF for the money. You come

for the program and the product that we're providing. You know, being able to

we're providing. You know, being able to be part of a community where you access your co-founder, you develop your idea.

You know, being able to come to EF as an individual who is pre-comp, pre- idea, and leave as somebody who's raised say $10 million on a $50 million cap. You

know, that that is a pretty incredible experience that can happen in somewhere between three and three and six months.

Um, so the money the money isn't the main part of our product. Um, uh, I think the the issue with studios is if you take 30% then the founders are pretty diluted already and then I think

that can be hard to seed investors. But

we've had the most incredible response from investors in the Bay Area in San Francisco. Um, you know, we've had our

Francisco. Um, you know, we've had our demo days opened by Reed Hoffman, Patrick Collison, Vinard Kosler, you know, these incredible um, incredible uh, founders. And actually most recently

uh, founders. And actually most recently we had Jack Clark, one of the founders of um Anthropic, a a great European uh founder in um uh in the US. And um one

of the things that we've seen is that rounds happen so quickly in the US because it's so competitive because there's so much capital.

>> Rounds get done in about 2 weeks. Um and

we've seen the average valuation double since we've moved the companies from Europe to the US.

>> So let tell me numbers like uh what is an average round? uh how how much do they raise what valuation would be like?

So I mean average uh average valuation would be around $20 million now. Um but

>> for seed >> for seed and this is this is a company that's between three and five months old.

>> Um this is you know for somebody who started with absolutely nothing. Um but

you you know you see a range of valuations and at the top end they can get up to 50 $60 million. Um and you know at the top end of how much can you raise some founders raise $2 million but you can raise you know up to 10 or 15.

So the quantity of capital is incredible, but it's also the quality of the investors as well, where pretty much every investor you're working with is a former founder. Um, and not only that,

former founder. Um, and not only that, they've invested in multiple billion dollar companies. Um, but I think, you

dollar companies. Um, but I think, you know, when we think about the European ecosystem as well, one of the things that we're seeing a bunch of our founders do is do um co-led rounds where

they take a incredible European VC alongside incredible US VC. And I think then you you know you really do get access to the best of both worlds.

>> Um so I if I want to make it I mean simple the average um round is 4 million for 20

million valuation. Would that be right?

million valuation. Would that be right?

>> Sure is. But I think one of the questions you need to ask yourself >> it can be 2 million for 10 million or 8 million for a 40 million something like this.

>> Uh yeah rare that it would be two on 10.

Um but the the thing I would push you on as well is do you see yourself as one of the average startups in the batch or do you see yourself as the standout >> start? I'm just trying to understand the

>> start? I'm just trying to understand the um of course but you would go there to to raise on a 50 million valuation probably and it doesn't happen for everyone but yeah but uh and sometime it's not that good to raise too much too

early probably I don't know >> it it completely depends where you're at you know if you're at the stage where one of the things we have seen moving the companies to the US is that US

customers move so fast so you know um uh from landing within about 8 weeks the companies can have somewhere between 100 and 500 100k of revenue of ARR um

>> weeks you said >> wow >> um and the you know America is so capitalist the profit motive is so so strong um and it

means that because it's so competitive companies are very willing to take a risk on new companies that could transform whatever they're doing >> even clients I'm not saying like you're not talking about phones now you're

saying >> no no this is this is you know clients of the you're 3 weeks old, you say, "Yeah, get my product and uh and it's 50K a year."

And people say, "Yeah, sure. I love it."

>> Yeah. And the the best companies we have in the batch, they haven't return.

>> It's it's incredible, isn't it? The the

best companies will actually have the product live um within 3 months, you know, from nothing, you know, landing in the US to having a product live that they're being paid for by demo day. Um

and, you know, we we just don't see that same speed from customers in in Europe.

Um, and one of our great investors, uh, who's an investor in EF and invests in lots of our companies, Charlie Song.

He's he's on the board of Meta. He's one

of the world's best angel investors, um, I remember him saying to me, which I feel is so true, is that the reason to go to the US is actually for the customers, not for the capital. Um, and

it's because, you know, when you think about the culture that you build for your startup, you think it's the founder that sets the culture, but actually it's the customers that set the culture because if they are moving that fast, you have to move that fast. Whereas if

you're in a in a place where you know customers are taking a couple of months maybe a couple of quarters to make a decision that's the speed of your company.

>> Alish this is very very important what you're just saying. I think that that is where we have to change in Europe mainly. I mean if we want to make Europe

mainly. I mean if we want to make Europe great. Yeah.

great. Yeah.

>> Uh it's mainly that you have to believe and trust uh young entrepreneurs uh as a client. I mean as a customer you know

client. I mean as a customer you know you got to take the risk.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Because most of the time you're like, "Yeah, okay, make it for free."

Or, you know, like, "No, I mean it's try it."

it." >> Yeah. And it won't always work out. And

>> Yeah. And it won't always work out. And

I think we've got to get more. Okay. You

know, we talk a lot about, you know, um, attitudes to failure and that being one of the challenges for Europe, but I think it really, it really is. And it's

not just founders being afraid to fail.

It's the customers, you know, the clients of these startups being afraid to fail, being afraid to look bad in front of their boss. And the more that we can kind of remove that fear around experimentation, I think that would

really help Europe.

>> I think it's even more true with all of the AI stuff happening right now. Um and

um I'm I'm probably sometime not that good in this area, I have to say. I

mean, you know, you get those young guys coming around and uh trying to sell you something and you're like, "Oh, yeah. I

have no I mean I'm too old for this you know and but it's it's I mean we're laughing but I think it's it's it's a drama. So I think we have to to take

drama. So I think we have to to take responsibility out of this. It's it's a very interesting um and talking about AI

uh this has changed a lot I believe because I mean you know I I don't know if I we talked about Lovable and Anton

before uh recording and um he was stay sitting in your chair a few months ago and um like last week just for fun I built my

own URL shortener right you know what I'm saying yeah bit and and like this is insane. I mean not able to do that in

insane. I mean not able to do that in the real world, right? And you can do bricks like this like a Lego uh

everywhere now. Uh how much has it

everywhere now. Uh how much has it changed your work because I believe the competition is is bigger in a lot of areas.

Well, I mean, maybe there's more competition, but I think the main thing to focus on is there is an increasing supply of people that want to be founders. Um, you know, EF's mission is

founders. Um, you know, EF's mission is to increase the supply of highquality companies that are built every year. You

know, create companies that wouldn't otherwise happen. And we have never seen

otherwise happen. And we have never seen more individuals, more young, more young people wanting to be a founder and seeing founding as not just a viable career path, but an aspirational and um

desirable career path. And this is such a great thing for the world. Um and so you say there's more competition, but I think there's greater supply as in I'm delighted that there are more people coming in. Um I'm delighted that there

coming in. Um I'm delighted that there are more early stage investors. I think

this is only good for the ecosystem, only good for the world. Um, one of my great fears and one of the things that still motivates me hugely um, and one of the kind of founding principles of EF

was that so many of the world's most um, high potential founders particularly in Europe get lost to traditional career paths because they're really really hard to quit. Like it's really hard to quit

to quit. Like it's really hard to quit that great investment banking job that hedge fund because if you are good at your job they will not let you quit. And

one of the things that you know when Americans say to say to me oh you know why doesn't Europe have a Google or you know whatever. um Larry and Sergey would

know whatever. um Larry and Sergey would have worked at a hedge fund. Mark

Zuckerberg would have become a consultant. You know, these are the the

consultant. You know, these are the the kind of careers that um are very desirable still and are really really hard to get out of. And I think people underestimate just how strong the golden handcuffs are. And so if we are now

handcuffs are. And so if we are now going through this sort of golden era where young people are not even trying those career paths and going straight into founding, I think it's a great thing for the world. those same

companies uh and McKenzie and Google and I don't know uh uh Goldman Sachs they do the same in the US. Why how comes American people just leave and and

create companies?

>> Well it's it is different in the US. So

um I think it depends east coast versus west coast and it depends on the university. So you know if you go to the

university. So you know if you go to the Stanford can Stanford campus everyone wants to be a founder and everyone is a founder. um you know everyone's got

founder. um you know everyone's got stealth founder on their LinkedIn and they are building and experimenting with things and actually those traditional career paths aren't aspirational at all.

Um also in the US you have more um graduate jobs in big tech companies >> does the employment security changes thing does the fact that the the

American I mean they can get fired like or they get fired like from a day to another we it's not the same in Europe.

So you're you're kind of, you know, uh, warm in your job, in your even with American firms, it's going to cost them a ton of money if they fire you. So

maybe they keep you here and you're kind of happy with that.

>> Maybe, but I suppose we're not looking for the people who are kind of happy with it. You know, you're looking for

with it. You know, you're looking for the people who are sort of frustrated and who are rattling against the chains, but maybe don't see an alternative. Um,

and I'm delighted that more and more people are seeing it as an aspirational alternative. Um, so yeah, I don't it's

alternative. Um, so yeah, I don't it's not about turning people into founders.

Um, you know, I don't think we should be pushing people who are very happy in their corporate jobs. There are lots of people who shouldn't be founders. Not

everyone should be a founder. It's an

awful career path. It's one of the hardest, most harrowing career paths you can choose. But there's a bunch of

can choose. But there's a bunch of people who should be on that career path, who want that steep learning curve, who want the kind of punishment that comes with being a founder um because it is so fulfilling. And it's

about how do we get those people to make the leap um and to see that actually the opportunity cost is not leaving their job, the opportunity cost is staying in their job. If you've got a billion

their job. If you've got a billion dollar company inside you, you've got a multi-billion dollar company inside you, the real cost is staying in your nice cozy job um that your parents are really pleased with or that your friends think

is cool. That is the real cost. Um cuz

is cool. That is the real cost. Um cuz

think about the impact you could have on the world. Think about the wealth you

the world. Think about the wealth you could generate and the impact you could have from that wealth. Um that is that is that is the opportunity cost.

The fun thing is that you're not um aiming or addressing those people because it's too late. They're dead to the

too late. They're dead to the entrepreneur world, right? I mean, those people who have been working for Google for 10 years who have like two kids,

live in Paris, Berlin or London. Uh

>> we're going younger. We're a bit younger than that. Yeah. Would there be a kind

than that. Yeah. Would there be a kind of entrepreneur first um idea to to to to put on the table with those people

like saying you're experienced uh or is it too late? Are they doomed?

Uh I mean if you look at the data on founders there's this great book um super founders by Ali Tamiseb who's a a VC at DCVC and um uh originally studied at Imperial in London um and it looks at

all the data on founders that have built billion dollar companies and and the data shows that you really can be any age to create a billion dollar company but the interesting thing is if you look at people who do found successfully

later in life it's typically that they've had a bunch of unsuccessful founding journeys beforehand. And so one of the things that I am very keen that we begin talking about in Europe which seems way more normal in the US is this

idea of a founding career path. You know

you build a company it doesn't work out it's totally fine but you've learned a ton build another company doesn't work out totally fine build another company compound that learning whereas I feel like in Europe we had this whole thing

of like go and work in this completely detached industry but it's still business and then use those learnings to start a company. But the learnings you get from a big business that's about optimization. It's about impressing your

optimization. It's about impressing your boss. It's not actually about like the

boss. It's not actually about like the creative inception of a company that is yours. And so I think more this idea

yours. And so I think more this idea that founding may take two, three, four, five attempts. You know, you don't win a

five attempts. You know, you don't win a gold medal at the Olympics on your first time necessarily. It's something that

time necessarily. It's something that you build expertise and muscle in. Um,

and the same needs to be how we think about founding.

>> Yeah. I think the I've seen the statistics a couple of years ago about like the chances you have to succeed on your third company. They're like huge. I

mean, like huge.

>> Yeah.

>> Even if you failed the the first two ones. So, it's it's interesting.

ones. So, it's it's interesting.

>> The fun the other fun thing is that that's maybe my my feeling, but you tell me if I'm wrong. You were saying like what you're looking is technical background. I want to go back on that

background. I want to go back on that later on. Action, speed, aggressiveness,

later on. Action, speed, aggressiveness, uh aggression.

>> Yeah. Playing to win, get a market, destroy everything else. And to what I I understand on Alice uh when you left

going for a nonprofit and to where you succeeding right now big time, right? I I don't know if I mean you you were that kind of person,

were you?

>> No. And I think this is the this is the point. It's that um

point. It's that um we are brought up in a certain way in Europe and I'm raising my kids in the US now and like they are brought up in a different way in the US. The school

system is different. The kind of things they value are different. Um and so it's working out like how are those emerging behaviors displayed and then how do we amplify them? How do we give permission

amplify them? How do we give permission for those behaviors to exist? Um cuz I'm incredibly ambitious and have always been and have always wanted work to be a large part of my life and a large part of what I do and something that you know

excites and motivates me. But when I was growing up the word ambition particularly for a woman was a really dirty work word like that was not something that I would have expressly said. If you go back in Europe,

said. If you go back in Europe, technical background, action, speed, aggressive aggression or playing to it, get a market, destroy everything. That's

typically masculine terminology.

>> Very, very masculine. Um, but also I think a lot of it, you know, it's just not how we would talk about it in in Europe. And it's not that we don't have

Europe. And it's not that we don't have that as Europeans, it's just that we have either suppressed those behaviors or present them in a different way. And

in your role now, Alice, um, at EF, you guys, all of you, is do you have is part of your job trying to

permit to let people like young woman coming to you and just >> let them uh do that? I mean, do you have to uh give them the authorization like

like, "Hey babes, wake up." Like like you're that kind of person. You have the compet the technical background. Uh, I

can feel the action, but let yourself be that person. Is it something you do?

that person. Is it something you do?

>> Tomorrow I'm in London and I'm doing a lunch with all the female founders that are on the cohort and this will be one of the things that I talk about. But I

think the most important bit is being part of a cohort of people who are like you and who are all um going through that same process of actually trying to understand who they are and what

motivates them. And you know it's this

motivates them. And you know it's this this concept concept of mimemetic desire where you know mimisis is all about ultimately what you want will be dependent on who you surround yourself

by >> and if you've grown up in a European context like you will be pushed to care about and desire certain things and I think part of the process of you know growing up is actually trying to work

out what your genuine desire is and who you are genuinely rather than who you've been shaped to be. And again, this is why like spending time in the US is so important because you might go there and be like, "Actually, screw this. I don't

want like this is not who I am and I don't want to do this." And that's totally fine. Or it might be going out

totally fine. Or it might be going out there and saying, "Actually, I really like the way that they do this thing."

And I'm going to actually use my experience of of seeing this as a way to develop that part of myself. Um, and

I've changed since I've gone to the US.

Like I feel like the way that I behave and the way that I think is different.

Um, and I found that really useful. And

I'm not planning on being in the US forever. I want to come back to Europe.

forever. I want to come back to Europe.

And I am going to bring those that way of thinking back with me as well. Um so

yeah you know being a founder is a journey of self exploration and trying to work out you know because your job becomes such an enormous part of your life and your role as a founder becomes

so much part of who you are as well.

You know what we're trying to do at EF is help people speedrun that journey of actually understanding who they are who they are in relation to a co-founder and what they really want to achieve. You

know what is their life's purpose? what

do they really want? Um, one of the things I find, you know, we we um work with American graduates now as well, and one of the things I do find interesting is that when you ask a European, you know, what do they want to achieve, they

talk about impact, but um often can't quite pin down what that that means. If

you talk to an American, they talk about wealth creation. Um, and again, it's

wealth creation. Um, and again, it's such a important difference because I think ultimately they're probably both talking about the same thing, which might actually just be power. They both

just want they're both megalomaniacs and they're trying to to achieve um power >> impact and wealth creation is power at the end of the day, right?

>> You know, someone could say they want to have impact and you could assume that means not for profit, but actually what they're talking about is, you know, I want to impact billions of people's lives every day. That is megalamania. Um

you know, that's not what that's not what everyone everyone wants.

>> Is megalomania good >> in a founder? Yes. Yeah.

>> Um, you know, there's, uh, if you think about what being a founder is, you need to want to influence people. You need to believe that your

people. You need to believe that your point of view in some way is right. My

co-founder Matt has this amazing piece on the history of ambition where he basically argues that um, megalamania has always been important in the people that have influenced the world. And

previously it was expressed through you know war often um whereas now you know most of the megalomania many of the um megaloman maniacal individuals in the world are building companies and having impact that way and this is you know a

positive shift positive shift for humanity. Um but yeah if you think about

humanity. Um but yeah if you think about you know a founder one of the other things we look for is high personal exceptionalism. So this is the idea that

exceptionalism. So this is the idea that they >> high personal exceptionalism.

>> Yeah they believe they are exceptional.

They believe they are different to everyone else. And this is not

everyone else. And this is not sufficient to succeed, but it is necessary. You can be super smart, super

necessary. You can be super smart, super ambitious, but if you don't believe your odds of success are different to everyone else's, you're never going to make it. And it's amazing how many

make it. And it's amazing how many founders I see who I think are so good, but there is 10% of their brain that is trying not to fail. Um, and if you are making decisions to prevent failure, you will never succeed. M

>> um and again this is one of the differences that I see in the US where they play to win with absolutely no um backup. Uh like they

backup. Uh like they >> you know they are Icorus they fly very close to the sun and sometimes it works and they would much rather fly close to the sun get burnt and fall in the sea

than to never have tried because one of them will fly past the sun. Um and again it's that level of um risk takingaking and sort of aggression that uh that we

we don't necessarily have in the same way in Europe.

>> It's very hard to get back to this exceptionalism which is quite close to memania somehow. Um

memania somehow. Um because um at some point you're like like like people around me could have tell me in the past or sometimes like you're kind

of megalomaniac or something like this and I'm just say no I'm just trying to get big things done right I mean and and I'm not like Elon Musk at the end of the

day right but uh but you don't like when people tell yourself as megalomaniac you know so do do you have sometimes people coming in and say I'm a [ __ ] megalomaniac right?

>> No one says that. No one says that. In

the same way, you know, no one says I'm a psychopath. Um

a psychopath. Um uh but it's more you can see how they think and you know it's I do think this

impact thing is really amusing because wanting to impact people's lives. It is

a form of megalomania. Um uh but it's very rare people self-classify as a megalomaniac. Um, it's very, you know,

megalomaniac. Um, it's very, you know, people also don't walk around saying, "I have high personal exceptionalism." But

actually, if you push people really hard, you can get them to acknowledge that they feel that they are different to everyone else. And not that they're better, but they have better chances,

you know, better odds of success. And

this might be, you might interpret this as arrogance, but it's it's not really arrogance. It's sort of a quiet belief,

arrogance. It's sort of a quiet belief, very strong belief in themselves.

If I put it this way, it's like um you'd rather invest in people that have very very high expectations and maybe small chances to go there but

bigger than other ones, right? Than

someone who has very low expectation and very high chances to get there. Like I

know I can run the 100 meters in 13 seconds, right? But I will not get money

seconds, right? But I will not get money out of it. But if I can make it in under 10 seconds, maybe you like what I'm doing right?

>> Yeah. Ultimately,

the kind of venture cap, you know, venture capital is about winners and creating big companies. Um, and one of the things I love about our model is that, you know, not everyone with EF ends up building a massive company. Um,

because it's really, really hard. But

because we're producing so many companies a year, actually one of the most um frequent paths for people who don't make it is either they do EF again or they end up being one of the first employees for one of the companies that

is growing really fast.

>> So we have this amazing sort of talent recycling. Um and again like you know if

recycling. Um and again like you know if they don't make it often they'll join one of our companies for a couple of years and then go back and do it again and and try founding again.

>> Do you have to pay to pay to go on EF?

No, you get paid.

>> No, we just pay you.

>> Okay. Yeah,

>> that's good. It's a dream come true, right?

>> It is a dream come true.

>> At some point, if I am an investor, I could think like, you know what, he's going through EF and it's not the hard way. You know, he's

they've been nurtured to to they've been like, you know, like babies and uh um how do you call a bibl like um you bottle?

>> Yeah. Yeah. What? Huh?

Oh, yeah. Okay. Sit. In French we have a term for the bottle for the babies.

>> Oh, I don't think we do in French.

>> Okay. Okay. But yeah, somehow uh is it something people say about like the people coming through EF now?

>> No, I mean you know why combinator has normalized supporting firsttime founders? Um, and I think what people

founders? Um, and I think what people forget is like fundraising in in San Francisco, there is a process that works and there are many processes that don't

work, but the process that works is not obvious. And so a founder is at a

obvious. And so a founder is at a massive disadvantage if they just don't know the process and they don't know the people.

>> Um, so if you don't have the network and you don't know what you're doing, you are on a massive back foot and you'll just you won't get a great outcome.

>> Okay. So yeah, I mean sometimes VCs will push me and go, "Oh, you know, all the all the companies are so beautifully polished, it's hard to tell which is the great one." And I went, "Well, that is

great one." And I went, "Well, that is your job. Your your job, my job is not

your job. Your your job, my job is not to tell you which is the great company.

Your job is to work it out. My job is to make sure every founder has a great chance of raising the very best capital from the very best investor by helping them understand what does great look

like." Um, which is it's, you know, it's

like." Um, which is it's, you know, it's hard. There's only so much that you can

hard. There's only so much that you can read on the internet and there's a lot you can read on the internet. But having

a coach basically that can take you through that process and help you exactly understand, you know, okay, this co-founder isn't right for you, this investor isn't right for you, this is where your pitch sucks, this is the

story that you need to tell. Like that

is it is invaluable because there is a playbook and um one of the things I would say as well is like VCs in the US are used to seeing very polished founders who have been in the ecosystem for a long time. M

>> so if you come in as a super fresh European it doesn't always land very well um because there are ways of communicating your story that are different in the US compared to Europe. Um and the founders

that we we take out often fund raise you know both in Europe and the US and they say the questions they get are completely different. Um one of the okay

completely different. Um one of the okay one of the the things that always surprises founders when they go to the US is US VCs often will spend an inordinate amount of time asking about your childhood and focusing on your

childhood trauma.

uh and and they may not even ask you about your business. Um and that is something that does not happen in Europe in the same way. And so it's just helping them understand like what to expect and then how to nail those

conversations.

>> What childhood trauma you like you would like as a US VC?

>> Uh I mean we don't we don't ask people about their childhood trauma. Um what

they do >> you know what they're digging what they >> they're trying to look for determination, resilience. um you know

determination, resilience. um you know being a founder is hard and they don't want you know they want somebody who has experienced hard things in the past but it's amazingly consistent like when you ask I always ask VCs you know what do

you look for um in founders and you know it's great market great team uh and then the other thing they always mention is childhood trauma um and you know they will ask questions like what is your

relationship like with your father um what was the toughest experience you had growing up you know so it's it's pretty direct uh direct questions um well coming back to meglamania I've done some

a little bit of digging on on trying to work out like why this is important and um from my limited reading I'm not a psychologist or psychotherapist in

limited reading um childhood trauma is a intense feeling gives you an intense feeling of powerlessness as a child that you never want to experience again um and so one of the ways to adapt that is

to build a desire for power to become a megalomaniac so that you never have that sort of horrific powerless feeling again Um, and so again, you know, Megalamania, we come back to Megalamania.

>> Have you ever heard about that book called The Road Less Traveled?

>> No.

>> Wow. You love it. You have to read that.

Yeah. Yeah.

>> Um, it was uh actually Have you heard about Carlos Gon?

>> No.

>> Carlos Go. He used to be the the um CEO of Renault, right? Okay.

>> And he he flew away from Japan in a suitcase. Do you remember that that

suitcase. Do you remember that that story right there? Yeah,

>> we had the chance to record with Carlos Goon. Uh

Goon. Uh >> oh, I have to listen to it >> last year. Well, you speak French >> a tiny bit very badly.

>> Okay. Uh we should translate it, I think. But yeah. Um and speaking of a

think. But yeah. Um and speaking of a megalomaniac even in in a good sense, he is probably this kind of person at some

point. Uh, and I was very very um

point. Uh, and I was very very um surprised that he recommended did that book uh at the end of the podcast because I was like because I'm reading

it right now and it's a lot about like childhood traumas, psychotherapy uh and and I'm like this guy really like he's

talking about psyche and and uh going into therapy and and doesn't fit well.

But I think it's it's interesting what you're just saying. What are what are your childhood childhood traumas? Alice,

>> that's a much longer podcast. I'll get

my get my teenage diaries out.

>> Have you ever I mean, you've probably thought about it since people are asking all of your founders.

>> I mean, yes, but I you know, I think the I've been very lucky to have a very happy um happy life. And

yeah, I don't know what I would I don't know what I would point to. Um

>> what I've heard I'm not going into that deeply. Don't worry. Uh but um when you

deeply. Don't worry. Uh but um when you said earlier on uh your father was in special forces, right? And your mother was a doctor. You were

>> born and raised in an excellence environment somehow, right?

>> Yeah, for sure. My parents are um absolutely wonderful, but also quite hardcore. They um yeah, they work

hardcore. They um yeah, they work incredibly hard and um yeah, a very impressive people.

>> Um was it good or not? Are you hardcore with your kids?

>> Am I hardcore with my kids? Um,

no. I mean, my parents were never hardcore with me. I think they were incredibly gentle, but it's it's about what's role modeled, right? Um, and I think I was brought up in a household where, you know, we didn't quit things

and hard work and dedication was the expectation. And but not through, you

expectation. And but not through, you know, they were very very gentle with me. I think it was more around they role

me. I think it was more around they role modeled through their own careers and their own behaviors. you know, high discipline, high determination, um, and, you know, dedication to being

good at whatever they wanted to apply themselves to. Um, if we get back to,

themselves to. Um, if we get back to, um, um, the people who don't have the playbook. So if I'm 18 right now, I'm an

playbook. So if I'm 18 right now, I'm an 18 years old young woman and just got my we say bachelor or whatever it is back

in French. Um and I'm thinking about you

in French. Um and I'm thinking about you know launching companies. You said

earlier on you you kind of have some 18 years old candidates.

>> We do. I mean not not it's probably 5% of what we do but yes but it's becoming increasingly common. So what is the pay

increasingly common. So what is the pay playbook? You have like you're on

playbook? You have like you're on TikTok, you have one minute.

>> What's the playbook? Um well obviously first of all joining F. Uh find the right co-founder. Um keep experimenting

right co-founder. Um keep experimenting with ideas until you find something that you feel real pull from your customer and that you want to build. Um go to the

US. Uh make sure you understand how to

US. Uh make sure you understand how to run a great fund raise. um raise

capital, build out product, generate revenue, build more, raise more money, build faster.

Uh I mean the product that we're we are most excited about which is new for 2026 is that we are now running this residency called the bridge in uh San Francisco. So I would encourage this

Francisco. So I would encourage this young woman to apply. She gets to live with 48 other fantastic um young people at the beginning of their founding careers. Gets to find her co-founder.

careers. Gets to find her co-founder.

Gets a ton of help and support. Um and

then gets the opportunity to raise from some of the world's best investors. Uh

and in in terms of like a good having a great starting point for her founding career, you really can't get better than that.

>> Okay. And uh who shouldn't apply?

>> Who shouldn't apply?

If you think startups are kind of cool and you want to be part of the kind of like cool kids, we call them the startup fanboys who are sort of like floating around the edges of startups um and are constantly talking about it but will

never actually do it. Um yeah, don't apply.

>> Okay. What is the biggest misconception about startups?

>> Biggest misconception.

I think the 996 thing is interesting because I'm intrigued that it's it's sort of this new thing of like, oh, 996.

But >> so 996 we got back from China. It's

probably a Chinese origins. I don't

know, but it's from 9:00 in the morning to 9:00 p.m. uh 6 days a week, right?

>> A week.

>> Okay.

>> But I love the idea that this is new. I

mean, my early career was 996. Um, and I think the the misconception is that it's new. I think

the thing is that startups are just really hard work. Um, and any sort of view that it is a positive lifestyle choice. It is it's probably the most

choice. It is it's probably the most negative lifestyle choice you could make as in it's so all consuming. Um, and if you want to be great at it, if you want to be one of the best in the world at

it, it will dominate everything you do.

Um, and I would compare it again to um, you know, trying to win a gold medal at the Olympics. Um I think there's

the Olympics. Um I think there's probably more cultural understanding particularly in Europe that if you said I'm going to try and win a gold medal at the 100 meters at the Olympics everyone would understand you are going to be

running and training for 12 hours a day 6 days a week 7 days a week you know 362 days a year. Uh but when you're a founder and you're trying to do the same thing I think there's less acceptance

that that is okay. it's like, oh, they're obsessed with work, you know, it's very unhealthy. Whereas, you're

trying to do something that is as hard as winning a gold medal at the Olympics.

Um, and so, yeah, I think the misconception is that you can do this as a in any way as a lifestyle job. It is

your lifestyle. That is your life. Um,

and >> like a 996 is kind of necessary.

>> It's kind of necessary, but you should see that going back to your earlier question about fun. That should be fun because you're obsessed with what you're doing. You get to choose what you work

doing. You get to choose what you work on. Plus, at some point, tell me if I'm

on. Plus, at some point, tell me if I'm wrong, but um a 996 doesn't mean a 996 in front of your computer. I mean, it

also means sometimes you're just meeting clients. Sometimes you're just maybe uh

clients. Sometimes you're just maybe uh I don't know uh running in the morning uh thinking about your business. I don't

know. It's just a n you're just obsessed with the visit.

>> Yeah. I think one of the big changes for me leaving um consulting was that when I you know was working in a corporate career and I only did it for two years you know you would get that moment where you'd go on holiday and you're like

great I don't need to think about this anymore like my brain is going to switch off and like stop thinking about this and I think the joy of being a founder is that there's never a point where I'm like stop thinking about this you know

it's it's a joy to wallow in this thing that I've created and and you know the joy of having a co-founder where you can collectively wallow in in this you know this idea idea that you're exploring.

>> Does it still need a balance somehow? I

mean, like sometimes just cut from the idea, just go on holidays or sometimes just go outside and run or go to the gym

or is it important to have a I can can I say work life balance or work balance, but you know what I'm saying?

>> It's a marathon and a sprint. Um, you

know, it's a a marathon made up of sprints. And

sprints. And when I was first building EF, you know, me and my co-founder Matt, we'd often be like, "This is the silver bullet. When

this thing happens, it's all going to get easier." And it's never got easier.

get easier." And it's never got easier.

It's just different challenges. Um, and

I think I now have more maturity and perspective to deal with those challenges. And it's it's generally less

challenges. And it's it's generally less stressful because um I have more perspective. But you need to stay

perspective. But you need to stay healthy. You need to have enough gas in

healthy. You need to have enough gas in the tank to be able to run for a really long time. Um, but I don't think there's

long time. Um, but I don't think there's any way that you can make it a positive lifestyle choice. And you know, now I've

lifestyle choice. And you know, now I've got little kids, it's obviously much harder. Um, and balancing family and and

harder. Um, and balancing family and and work is really tough and there's kind of no way around that. Um, but it's it's working out like what are the things that you are going to prioritize. Like

you you talk about going for runs or exercise. Like I'm definitely in a phase

exercise. Like I'm definitely in a phase of my life where I probably should be exercising, but I'm allocating my exercise time to my kids. Um, so you know, you're constantly making trade-offs. Um, and it's

trade-offs. Um, and it's >> you have to work out if that's the right trade-off for you. I mean, one of the things I would say that was really great for me is started when I was 25. Um, I'm

now 39 and so glad I started young cuz I did when I was young. I just worked all the time. And I think trying to do that

the time. And I think trying to do that alongside, you know, kids and all the rest of it now would be very, very hard.

But I think, you know, most young founders and maybe particularly young women think, you know, I don't have enough experience. I need to gather, you

enough experience. I need to gather, you know, more years under my belt, more network, more cash, whatever it may be.

I think it's a real opportunity cost to not starting young and just getting stuck in and like making those mistakes and >> you know I'm now at the point where I can afford a nanny and you know all the all of those sort of things that make

life easier and um and so yeah I would particularly encourage young women to think about starting earlier because I think they are less likely to do so and I think it's more important for them to do so.

My point about I I agree 100% but the my point was about sports and um you know

food and uh sleep is are three things pillars that are quite important if you be want to be u um to have a clear

thinking uh most of the time right uh >> yeah I mean I've done last year 2025 I did big push on my sleep personally and like because I was just sleeping

appallingly and have done for a very long time. Um but the challenge for me

long time. Um but the challenge for me is that I'm constantly jetlacked. You

know, I run a company that is across three continents and three time zones.

Um and that is really punishing and the least favorite part of my job is how much I have to travel. But if you want to run a international business, if you want to run a business that can, you know, really succeed in your industry,

travel is always going to be a part of it. Um, so yeah, I try and be good with

it. Um, so yeah, I try and be good with food. Uh, and I now have, you know, used

food. Uh, and I now have, you know, used Chat GBT to come up with an amazing supplement regime for me, which has been amazing. Um,

amazing. Um, but yeah, I I it is hard. It is a constant balance is like trying to keep healthy, but also running as fast as you can to to build something in a market

that's moving really fast.

>> Um, so tomorrow you will be having lunch in London with those young women, right?

I'm working in London tomorrow.

>> What are you going to tell them? What

what are the key words that unlocks the power within them?

>> Um I think the the key thing is to help them feel comfortable with their level of ambition. Um, and to give them

words to express that level of ambition that it's okay to say things like, you know, you want to build a $10 billion company and that you believe you can.

You It's okay to say things like you want to be one of the most successful founders in the world. It's okay to say that you want to have an enormous impact on people's lives and and create enormous wealth through that process as well.

>> Um, so it's, you know, it's probably sharing many of the anecdotes that I've shared through this podcast. Um but

yeah, it's it's about having that conversation and and showing that it's it's nothing to be embarrassed about.

>> You just talked about CH GBT and uh uh your what supplements will it or yeah uh what is your daily use of AI and what

specific topics and how much >> it's just it just increases every week I find new ways to use it. Um, you know, for a long time I was just using it to

proofread stuff, to throw in a bunch of thoughts and, you know, for it to write stuff for uh internal documents. Um, but

now I basically use it as a substitute for Google. So, anything that isn't

for Google. So, anything that isn't like, you know, what time does this restaurant open or >> you know, something that could be as answered by Google Maps or shopping that all still goes into Google, pretty much

everything else goes into chatbt. Um, so

if you are trying to find a piece of information, I just find it is easier to use a conversational format through CHBT. I love it for health stuff. Um,

CHBT. I love it for health stuff. Um,

you know, uploading my blood work and then, um, uh, getting it to recommend supplements, you know, my sleep has been terrible, having had two small kids and lots of jet lag, getting it to come up

with a really tight regime, and, you know, who else is going to talk to me at 3:00 in the morning when I can't sleep?

Um, so, uh, what else have I been using for recently? I love the voice function,

for recently? I love the voice function, like being able to just dictate >> um, updates, you know, for internal updates in the company or, um, you know, Slack messages that I want to send to

people, just being able to go for a walk, try and get some exercise in, try and get some sunlight. Um, and instead of being sat at my desk typing, being able to just go for a walk and, uh, and get it transcribed. So I

yeah it's probably the most used app on my phone. Maybe Slack still and WhatsApp

my phone. Maybe Slack still and WhatsApp would be number one and two, but it's probably the next after that.

>> All right. Um JPT is it or?

>> Yeah, I use GPT.

>> Gemini bit. No, not that much.

>> A bit. I think you know I've just got embedded in um chatbt at this point.

>> All right.

>> So there was a funny moment the other day where I asked it to write something for me and it said at the end, would you like this in Alice's voice or Matt's voice, my co-founder? And I said, who's

Matt? And then it said, "We have no

Matt? And then it said, "We have no idea. I don't know who matters. It's

idea. I don't know who matters. It's

just a generic male name." And I was like, "This is not this is my co-founder's name." And it eventually

co-founder's name." And it eventually admitted to me that it did know both who I was and who my co-founder was, which was one of the more sort of um surprising moments, but uh but yeah, otherwise I I do love it.

>> All right. Do you have any kind of favorite prompt, something you love to use or way of using it?

>> Um I'm probably reasonably relaxed on the prompts. Maybe because

I've used it so much, I find it's pretty good at knowing what I want. Um, the one that I've been trying recently that I saw someone else put on X was um giving

it different IQs. So, you are IQ of 120 140 and you get different answers and different levels of sophistication, which is which is fun. Um, but I'm quite a lazy prompter. I find it does a pretty good job. It might just be because I've

good job. It might just be because I've done I've done so much in it.

>> Did you personalize your um um your parameters? Right. Did you put a personal prompt?

>> Um, I did it but a while back now and I actually can't remember what's in it.

Um, >> mine is very rude with me now. Oh, yeah.

Tell me. I don't know. I'll send it to you. But it's still Yeah. No more

you. But it's still Yeah. No more

smileys. No more like follow-up questions. No more like And now he talks

questions. No more like And now he talks to me and my daughter was like, "What the [ __ ] did you do with your chip?"

Like it's not very nice. like can you the first time she talked to it was said she said uh I saw the the exchange and he said what happens to you and said nothing said yeah you're you're being

rude and said well I believe your father told me that he doesn't want any more like crap she was like oh boy um okay

what what I've heard you were raising money right now is that true >> um we can't talk about it right now but Okay.

>> Um but yes, hopefully we'll have some exciting news soon.

>> Um and um how big is is um Entrepreneur First now?

I mean, how many companies? What's the

valuation?

>> Uh so we've got 500 seed funded companies. Um we now work with about 400

companies. Um we now work with about 400 individual founders every year. Um

>> so 500 seeded. So that mean alive or >> Yeah. companies that have gone through

>> Yeah. companies that have gone through seed funding and that are growing. Um,

>> and out of how many did you found? What

is the the fail rate or >> a ton? It's it's not a metric we necessarily track as in the most important thing is always, you know, um, uh, how big are the winners and how big

is the portfolio. We, if you look at the world's most successful VCs, they have both the highest win rate and the highest loss rate. Um because you know you're as we were talking about you know trying to to get under that 10 second

mark in the 100 meters uh you're looking for the founders who are taking massive moonshots.

>> Okay. So uh you said 50 50 15 billion valuation that's your 500 companies right? Yes.

right? Yes.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Okay. And how do you evaluate that? I

mean it must be kind of >> well it's very um simple in that we take the market valuation. So the price of their last round and then you add all of those together and you get to 15 billion.

>> Okay. What are the the biggest ones?

>> Big companies. Um so some of our biggest companies already mentioned Cleo um which is this uh uh fintech app that is now making I think about $350 million of

AR a year is EBIT profitable. Um and

again has this great model where they're building in the UK for the US market. Um

got a great company called Aztec which is one of the leading um zero knowledge protocols for Ethereum. Um that was funded by Andre Horowitz.

>> All right.

>> Um got uh one of our companies that raised recently a company called PolyAI.

They've raised more than $200 million.

They're one of the leading voice um uh voice services AI voice services for customer service. So they work with

customer service. So they work with Hilton and FedEx and their their product is amazing. Um, they have all these

is amazing. Um, they have all these amazing recordings of customers using the product and going, "Oh, I'm so sorry. I thought you were AI, but now

sorry. I thought you were AI, but now I've realized you're a human." That it's actually AI.

>> Oh, wow.

>> Um, so we have a very broad range of companies that, you know, Cleo is B2C.

Um, Aztec is uh, web 3, PolyAI is um, B2B SAS. And again, it goes back to this

B2B SAS. And again, it goes back to this idea that we will invest in whatever interesting people are interested in.

>> So, would you still invest in in web 3 now?

>> Yeah. uh if we found somebody who had an interesting and contrarian point of view on it for sure and all of our best web 3 investments, you know, we've got another big company in the in the web 3 space um

that does uh distributed compute using the blockchain called Jensen um that's funded by Andre and Harowitz as well.

And again, these companies were built pre the kind of 2021 hype in in web 3.

And often we find that with these emerging technologies, it's investing prehype where you get um some of the best some of the best companies. Uh but

then we've got some amazing new companies coming through. Really

exciting one that just um announced there round uh Radical AI. They were

funded by um Kosa Ventures recently and this is a company that is enabling you to personalize your cancer care. Um they

have access to some of the largest data sets for um cancer treatment in the US.

Um and it allows you to actually compare how different drugs will affect you. Um

and that's founded by a um uh British I think she's 22 now 22 year old founder.

She's raised millions of dollars of funding is working with some of the biggest healthcare um institutions in the US and um you know is backed personally by Vinod Kosler and his fund

and and Vinod is one of the world's best best founders and investors. Um, so

yeah, I mean when I look at the the companies that are coming through as well, we have a lot of very exciting young Europeans who are absolutely smashing it.

>> What is your your favorite fail?

>> Favorite fail, personal fail?

>> Well, both in the company or as an investor or >> um favorite? Oh my goodness.

maybe something you you like like with um EF you invested you believed so much it would work but there is no regret it

didn't I mean tons um you know I never regret putting money into a company that's part of the deal right the part of the deal as an

investor is that this founder is going to be working their butt off for something that they really want to exist And if it fails, it is way worse for them

than it is for me. So I, you know, I never, um, I never regret an investment.

Um, and I think the other thing is I can see for many of them that in another world, in a different time, maybe if they've taken some slightly different decisions, they would have succeeded and that this failure is is actually just a

stepping stone to a to another great company. Um,

company. Um, so I don't Yeah, I don't regret any of the investments. Um, I mean,

the investments. Um, I mean, >> not talking about regrets, but I'm I'm thinking like I don't know, maybe you've invested in some companies that have raised like millions and millions and

then just failed. Did this happened?

>> Yes. Yeah. Um, I don't want to name and shame. Um, even though it shouldn't be

shame. Um, even though it shouldn't be it shouldn't be a shame because actually some of these founders gone to then build great companies afterwards.

>> Uh, but yeah, I don't think it's I don't think it's fair to call out call out individuals.

>> Okay. Um,

have you missed some like real big names? Um, some people just who

names? Um, some people just who presented themselves to EF and and and just you didn't accept them and they created amazing big companies.

>> Yeah. One or two. Um, and often when we've made mistakes, it's because we've said not yet rather than no. and their

process of converting to, you know, committing to founding has happened a lot faster than we thought. Um, and

those, yeah, those ones always irk me.

You know, we shouldn't we shouldn't make those kind of mistakes. Um, and that's, you know, one of the reasons I love our model is, you know, we can take so much risk. We can invest really really early.

risk. We can invest really really early.

Um, but you know, the job of my team is to stay really close to people as they're thinking about considering founding and and making sure that we have a really strong relationship with them so that we

can help them at the point where they do decide to found.

>> Do you have those skills we talked about earlier on like those skills um as an entrepreneur in your blood uh in your body or can you get them? I mean people

listening to us uh even like older people uh uh like Michael Bloomberg founded Bloomberg he was like 39 or something like this. So you can you can

be late but can you grow them inside you? Can you just become that person?

you? Can you just become that person?

>> The nature versus nurture question. Um

you have to have the starting points. I

mean, I don't know a lot about genetics, but sort of like gene expression. I

think um you can put people in environments that enable them to uh unlock something they have in them. But

if they don't have it at all, that's also totally fine as like lots of people aren't wildly ambitious. Lots of people think, you know, why would I want to destroy myself to found a company where I can actually live a great life? Um and

that is a totally fair point of view, and I respect that point of view. That's

that's that's a great way to live. Um,

so I think so much of my belief around like, you know, spending time in America versus Europe is that it's about helping these people who do have these things

unlock them. So, you know, bias to

unlock them. So, you know, bias to action, it's understanding what great looks like. One of the critiques I hear

looks like. One of the critiques I hear from US investors when I ask them about investing in Europeans and what they think about investing in Europeans is they're often polite and they'll say

things like European founders are methodical and they um are great at product and they um are very uh into planning and basically what they're saying is like >> they're not hungry,

>> they're slow, they're focusing on the wrong things and the founders think they're focusing on the right things but they're planning in months and quarters, not days and hours. And so I think bias

to action, there are lots of people that we can help have an even more um explicit bias to action just by showing them what great looks like, showing them how high the bar is. Um and aggression,

you know, that's something that I think is it's not something that is valued in Europe within a European context. And

not everyone wants to behave that way and I get that. But it's helping people understand that uh that what good looks like and what great looks like and and if you want to compete with American

companies, how you might need to behave.

So yeah, I do believe that nurture is a really important part of it. And again,

it's kind of mimisis. Who are you surrounded by? Who are you getting your

surrounded by? Who are you getting your influences from? Um I I strongly

influences from? Um I I strongly strongly believe that that is part of how you unlock people and help them understand what great looks like.

Have you ever had um revelations in your life or or in some of your founders life? I don't know. I'm thinking about

life? I don't know. I'm thinking about probably two things in my own journey.

Uh um one was actually um do you know Tony Robbins, have you heard? Yeah.

Yeah. So um or more recently this French uh you were talking a lot about gold medals uh French gold medalists back in

92. So that's very old. But he was like

92. So that's very old. But he was like the French uh um famous skier at the time called Edgar. And he just explained me here on this podcast, you cannot

become um gold medalist if you didn't decide it. There's no chance. It will

decide it. There's no chance. It will

never happen. You have to decide to become a gold medalist if you want to get there. And um so it's all about

get there. And um so it's all about intention, right? And at some point it

intention, right? And at some point it changed a lot of thing in my uh way of thinking. It's just like uh okay, I I

thinking. It's just like uh okay, I I want this with my company, with my podcast, with my content, with my team.

Um I have to choose to go there, right? And

uh did you have some kind of tipping points in your career or recently or not that recently?

>> I I strongly believe in in what you're saying. Um and it's sort of the the

saying. Um and it's sort of the the planning to succeed rather than planning to fail. uh you know what I am excited

to fail. uh you know what I am excited about at the moment is I think I can build entrepreneurs first into one of the most valuable companies that comes out of Europe and you know where we're

HQed in in the UK. Um

and that is my intention is I you know I think I can turn this into a $10 billion company and I'm really excited to do that. Um

that. Um >> how do you do that? Is does that mean more founders?

>> Yeah, we're going to grow um more founders, different products. Um for a long time we were a kind of single product company and over the last couple of years we we you know the core of EF is helping people at the very beginning

of their journey um finding co-founders developing ideas and uh you know last year we experimented with a um program for second time founders um lots of founders who had been through EF you

know um exited their company to you know various other um big tech companies and and we're were coming back second time round and so when I think about EF it's partly different formats

um and for different customers. So,

we're experimenting with residencies and um investing a lot of money in that this year. And so, yes, it's more um but for

year. And so, yes, it's more um but for for different profiles, different customer profiles. Um and you know, one

customer profiles. Um and you know, one of the big unlocks is moving many of the companies to America um and having exposure to the US, which has just

fasttracked everything that we're doing.

Have you ever thought about um I'm sorry about I'm obsessed with content, but filming that uh house over there. Uh

>> you would not imagine how many approaches we get from different production companies who are like, "This could be a great reality TV show." And I I I was actually at an EF summer party in London um last year and a woman

followed me into the L and she was like, "I just wanted to corner you to say, can we film this?" And I said I said, "No."

Um, yeah, I think you know what we do is it is crazy and you know, one of the reasons why we build such strong co-founder relationships is because EF

is really hard. It's a grueling process.

Um, it's super intense. There's tears

from everyone. Um, and uh, yeah, I think it would make great TV. Not sure that would be the best thing for the founders though.

>> I'm sure it would at the end. I don't

know. We talked about it last year with you know exa in France Tibo and and then we talked also with with Roxan Vza at and

>> about a TV show and I think um I think anyway if you do that at some point there's one person you should do that with. That's us definitely not TV

with. That's us definitely not TV producers. That's a web. It has to be

producers. That's a web. It has to be online. It has to be different. I'm

online. It has to be different. I'm

serious.

>> Uh but >> we should we should continue this conversation.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it would be very very interesting.

>> Well, the one the one reason I would do it is that there is still so much um mystery around the actual process of being a founder and what is it like?

What does actually feel like in in a way that isn't sensationalized. So yeah, I can see in a way I'm serious about >> doing it with the right people is that a

TV producer will want drama. Uh what we would want um is learnings and that's different. I don't give a [ __ ] about

different. I don't give a [ __ ] about drama. I mean it's interesting.

drama. I mean it's interesting.

Obviously if we can get some dramas and breakups and everything it's interesting that's baked into our model. Yeah. Um

yeah obviously do you remember have you heard about that show called Startup? It

was 10 years ago Michael Bloomberg. I do

remember this was a company called Gimlet Media that has been bought at the end by uh Amazon if I'm not Amazon I

think so. And and I mean the first I

think so. And and I mean the first I think it's the first episode or second one he's interviewing Chris Saka you know that in American investor and his

pitch I mean he's trying to raise money and it's like you're like this is never going to happen you know you listen to this guy and after a few episodes he's

trying to um um he's a journalist right from NPR and he's trying to negotiate with his future partner like uh the shares, the equity, and he goes like,

"Yeah, I like that guy." He talk he's talking with his wife and his future partner is talking with his wife and they're like, "Yeah, I like that guy. I

think it's Yeah, he's going to come.

Well, I've been working for a few months, so I'm going to give him like I'm going to be cool with him. I'm going

to give him like 10%." And the other guy is like, "Yeah, I really want to work with him." And it's fair that he gets

with him." And it's fair that he gets more than I do, so I think we should he should get 51. And I would and you're like, "They're never it's never gonna work." And the whole thing is very

work." And the whole thing is very interesting because it's working at the end. So yeah.

end. So yeah.

>> Well, let's um let's chat.

>> Yeah. Um great. So

um what do we tell the PE to the people who are listening to you? You you

obviously have to speak English. The

people who are listening to this episode in French in translated version are just just hey mate just talk English, right?

>> I cannot wait to hear myself in in fluent French. Um yeah, you've got to

fluent French. Um yeah, you've got to talk English. Um, you've got to speak

talk English. Um, you've got to speak English. The

English. The >> how good can it be? Like it has to be perfect.

>> The better the English, the better your chances.

>> Is my English good enough?

>> You're great. You're doing a great job.

Your English is way better than my French.

>> Yeah. She says, "No, you come on.

>> No, you're a great job."

>> Yeah. Right. Okay.

>> Um, yeah. Unfortunately, that is one of the the bars that that you have to meet um if you want to build an international company and you should be trying to build an international company. Um, I

would encourage you to speak English with your co-founder from day one, even if you're both French.

>> You said technical skills or technical backgrounds. What does that mean? Can

backgrounds. What does that mean? Can

can I be uh uh from a business school?

Is it not enough? Can I

>> It can It's a full spectrum, right? As

in we've got a very successful founder who um just raised an incredible round who comes from a kind of politics background and is not technical. Um so

it is a spectrum. The thing that um I push everyone on is that if you are building a a software company, you need to understand what's possible. So if you are the CEO, you need to understand what is possible from the product you're

building. So you have to be interested

building. So you have to be interested in technology. Um but we work with

in technology. Um but we work with people from you know PhD backgrounds who are deeply deeply technical um all the way through to kind of self-taught coders. Now the kind of um tools that

coders. Now the kind of um tools that are available available now to build products as you were saying was lovable.

Um it's never been easier to build that first prototype. Um but I think

first prototype. Um but I think ultimately there is you have to be interested in technology. You have to be interested in building a technical product and getting your your head

around that. Um so yeah, I would say 80%

around that. Um so yeah, I would say 80% of the people we work with have pretty decent technical skills. You know,

they're builders at their core.

>> Do you have to be obsessed by AI right now? I mean it's like saying do you need

now? I mean it's like saying do you need to be obsessed by the internet in in the early 2000s like every everything is going to be AI it's just the technology of the future um when I first started um

EF you had mobile specific VCs i.e.

investors that invested in mobile apps and now that would be crazy and in the same way that you know a couple of years ago you had AI specific VCs and and now >> that is just the default technology of

our time so whatever you are building you'll be building it with AI it will have some AI component you just there's no way to get around it

>> is there an AI bubble >> I mean things are spicy right now and we can see that um looking at the behavior behavior of

seedstage investors. Um, it is really

seedstage investors. Um, it is really hard to get into deals and it's pushing prices up. Um, and companies are just

prices up. Um, and companies are just moving very very fast. Is there a bubble? I mean, when I look at our

bubble? I mean, when I look at our companies, they are typically selling into enterprises with pretty significant annual contracts. And so, yes, they are

annual contracts. And so, yes, they are getting high prices, but it's sticky revenue. You know, it's revenue that's

revenue. You know, it's revenue that's going to hang around. It's not very thin, not this kind of thin revenue that everyone cares about. So I would say it is hot right now and I'm sure that there

is going to be a um refinement of the startups that are built in this period because you know they're not all going to survive but I don't think there's necessarily a bubble because enormous companies are going to be built

during this era. Um

>> enormous >> enormous companies and so again like the loss rate doesn't matter. All that

matters is that you as an investor get in in the biggest and the best.

Earlier on uh you you said that you would try new things with EF and actually second time founders. I thought

you were about to say um later investments. Uh what I'm saying is

later investments. Uh what I'm saying is that >> it would be interesting for you to have like kind of a follow-up envelope, right? and to be able to get into the

right? and to be able to get into the companies where you invested 250k to be able to put another 2 million if it >> you do have this money.

>> So I suppose actually our full offer is you know you get 250k up front but you can get to up to a further $3 million in follow-on funding. You also get $600,000

follow-on funding. You also get $600,000 of credits with OpenAI and Anthropic and um uh and GitHub and other other firms. Um but we do have a follow- on fund that

um takes our prata in our companies as they get to series A. Um so it's it's a great way for us to continue our relationship with the companies and we typically find our alumni when they're raising their series A they come back to

us for introductions, support on their pitch, support on their deck.

>> You know what what the next step is? you

should go for kind of an ETF where I could put money myself in every single company going out of of entrepreneur first. That would be interesting.

first. That would be interesting.

>> We can sign you up for that now.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

That would be I don't know if the the calc the calculation is good. Would

would it be good? Yeah,

>> it would be great. Yeah, great.

>> Okay. Interesting.

>> You wouldn't need any VC anymore after that probably. Yeah. Uh so cool. Um

that probably. Yeah. Uh so cool. Um

you've talked about several books. You

actually you wrote a book yourself a few years ago. So what is called I'll have

years ago. So what is called I'll have it here. It's how to be a founder.

it here. It's how to be a founder.

>> How to be a founder. Yeah. Which goes

through a lot of the stuff we've been talking about around co-founders and ideas and getting started and fundraising. And my co-founder Matt and

fundraising. And my co-founder Matt and I wrote it during the pandemic. Um and

yeah, it's been it's had a great reception. Won a bunch of awards. Um and

reception. Won a bunch of awards. Um and

yeah, so if you're listening to this, buy a copy and and dig in.

>> I've read that um Matt is getting into politics a bit right right now.

>> So Matt has been supporting um the British government on their AI policy.

Um he was instrumental to running the first AI safety summit in um 2023 uh with the prime minister Rishiak at the time. Um and then he was the AI I don't

time. Um and then he was the AI I don't know if we call them the AIAR, what's the word? um AI advisor to Kama for the

the word? um AI advisor to Kama for the most recent government. All right.

>> Um so yeah, Matt is very committed to supporting and working out how we can build um AI in Europe. Uh and so you know, we're we're between us, we are

very committed to this idea of, you know, building the bridge as a way to make um Europe a fantastic place to build AI company.

>> He's still in the house >> in EF still. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. He's still working with you.

>> We don't live together. Sometimes people

think we're married. We're not married.

Sorry. Sorry. I I was meaning that was um still in the office. In the office.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um he used to be the CEO.

>> He did.

>> You are now.

>> He did. Yeah. We changed three years ago.

>> Um so a couple of things. One, he wanted to spend more time in politics and doing um this kind of stint of work with the government. Uh we also changed the

government. Uh we also changed the strategy to focus more on the US. Um and

I was keen to move to the to the US and um kind of champion that strategy. Uh,

and honestly, we've been doing this for a really long time. You know, we we've been working together for for 13, 14 years. And I think for both of us, he's

years. And I think for both of us, he's now in the chairman role. I think for both of us, it's been really reinvigorating, changing role. My role,

you know, I'm now working on different things. I'm having to think about

things. I'm having to think about different things. And it's exciting. I

different things. And it's exciting. I

love it. Um, so yeah, it's been it's been a bit of a change, but I think it's been a really positive change for both of us. And um

of us. And um yeah, I didn't we've always worked very very closely together and we've had a fantastic co-founder relationship for a really long time and worked very

productively together and you know that that that hasn't changed. Um

>> did you have hard times?

>> Yeah. But I think one of the things that has actually been really good for us is we've always had a coach. We've always

had a really expensive coach. Um and in the early days it was kind of like bankrupt us money. Uh and we were with that coach for seven seven years. Yeah.

What's her name? Um the first our first co coach was called Lucy Funnel and she sadly died. Um and so then we moved on

sadly died. Um and so then we moved on to another coach. Uh but we would do three hours, so one hour individual and then one hour together. And I think it's the sort of thing where often we

>> per week >> um per Fortnite >> per >> Fortnite every two weeks.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> And it's one of those things where for the group session where we'd be together, we'd often turn up and be like everything's fine, you know, not entirely sure what we're going to talk about. do we even need to use this time?

about. do we even need to use this time?

And then after about 10 minutes, he'll be like, "Oh, wow. We really need to talk about this thing." Um, and actually our current coach, one of his critiques of us is that we've been working together for so long that when we have

conversations in front of him, he's like, "I don't understand what you're talking about." And no one else will.

talking about." And no one else will.

Um, because we've had this sort of mind meld where we just, you know, it's two two brains um but basically sort of combined in a way >> and that's really useful. You need

someone to be that sounding board who says, "Hey guys, like this this this might make sense to you, but it's nonsensical to everyone else. Let's like

actually work out what you're trying to say." And so we are a big fan of

say." And so we are a big fan of coaches. And when I say expensive

coaches. And when I say expensive coaches, I think, you know, it's very easy to get a coach, but get a good coach who really knows what they're doing and has a lot of experience.

>> What does mean expense? Expensive.

>> $1,000 an hour.

>> Okay.

>> Um >> thousands, you say, or a,000.

>> A,000. Yeah.

>> Okay. A,000. Okay.

>> Um, which particularly when you're starting out is a lot of money. It's

expensive. Um, but our coach now, we work with this great guy, Jake Bournestein, um, at Studio Metis and, um, he coaches me, Matt, our senior exec

team. Um, and so we actually find that

team. Um, and so we actually find that super useful to have him and his, um, partner, Darko, basically coaching the whole senior leadership team. Um, and

they are great at spotting, you know, inconsistencies in how we think. And,

um, the hardest part of running a company is always people stuff. And you

know, how do you create a high performing team? And if you were doing

performing team? And if you were doing sports, again, I I keep I must sound like a sports fanatic, and I'm I'm not, but like again, if you if you were trying to build a high performance sports team, you would have a coach. And

the same is the same is true if you're trying to build a high performing business team.

>> It's funny how it became kind of public for many people. I I mean, I've I've listened to an podcast few years ago with a guy. I mean, I think he was a

coach for uh Steve Jobs and uh probably I don't know I don't know if it was Eric Schmidt or at the same time, right?

>> Was this the billion dollar coach or something like that? Yeah. Yeah, I

remember this came out. Yeah.

>> And it was amazing. But he was uh I mean at the same time, can you believe that kind of lot of a conflict of interest but uh Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's something people didn't talk about long

not that long ago. Right. So, what how do you find a good coach? What does that mean?

>> We got ours largely through recommendations. Um, finding somebody

recommendations. Um, finding somebody who you trust and really respect. Um,

and yeah, I would always get a recommendation. And for the first time

recommendation. And for the first time around, um, when we found Lucy, we did a interview process and we interviewed, I don't know, 10 coaches trying to find the right one.

>> Um, so I would take it very seriously.

You know, if it if it works, it will be a really fundamental relationship in your life.

>> Interesting. So, um, let's get back to the books. Would you have one book, if

the books. Would you have one book, if you had one book to offer to everyone listening right now, which one would that be?

>> I'm going to go for a book that probably people won't have heard of and isn't about startups. Um, uh, Renie Red Zeppe.

about startups. Um, uh, Renie Red Zeppe.

Have you heard of him? He's one of the best chefs in the world. Um, so created, um, what's a restaurant called NMA in >> Oh, yeah. Is it Norway, right? Or

>> Norway? Yeah.

>> Yeah. Is it Copenagen Denmark? Yeah. Um,

and uh, he wrote a diary called a work in progress. And I love this book

in progress. And I love this book because it is about being a founder but in a completely different industry. But

when you look at his obsession, when you look at his taste, and I don't mean taste as in terms of cooking, but like taste in terms of art and what good looks like. Um, and just a sort of diary

looks like. Um, and just a sort of diary of what does it mean to be consumed by work that gives you joy? but it's also really really hard. Um I I love I

absolutely love that book and found it so um inspiring and it's it's one that people in startups haven't normally read because it's you know it's a complete different field.

>> A work in progress a journal from >> It does. When I bought it, it came with a cookbook which is probably the most useless cookbook I've ever got because it's it's like you need to forage from a

you know a Nordic um forest to be able to to actually make any of the dishes.

But um uh but yeah, the diary I thought was was you know I couldn't stop reading it.

>> Um if you had the chance to meet Alice um when she's leaving Forest for studies and you could tell her something, what would you tell yourself?

>> I think going back to you know the point I made at the beginning about reading my teenage diaries. I was so into wanting

teenage diaries. I was so into wanting to be a founder and wanting to be an entrepreneur and beginning to read a bunch of books around business and do you remember a company called bu.com? It

was one of the >> sure it was like >> internet success and failures and I read the book Boohoo when I was at school and thought that was at high school and just thought this was the coolest thing ever

>> and I saw one of my um university friends uh over in year and she said to me oh that's so funny because actually at university you were much more focused on traditional business and like trying

to get a corporate job and I think it was this is again goes back to mimisis and I would tell my younger self like stop looking at what everyone else is doing. It doesn't matter what everyone

doing. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing. You don't need to get the thing that everyone else wants. Stick

with what you want. Stick with the thing that made you feel really alive and so excited and made you, you know, rush to school every day because you wanted to do the startup. And it took me a while to get back to. It didn't take me too

long. It took me two years, but um

long. It took me two years, but um >> still I I understand. Yeah.

>> And I think McKenzie was a great place to work in in so many ways. And it would have been very easy to stay. And I was actually one of the last cohorts that they pushed us out after two years. you

had to leave after 2 years.

>> Um, and it would have been very easy to stay and be on this great promotion ladder and feel really successful and, you know, getting pats on the back all the time and and all the rest of it. And

yeah, my my push to my younger self would be just keep remembering what you want, not what everyone else wants.

>> So you you would have told everyone remain for the Brexit, but not for the for the job, right? leave.

>> Exit that company. Goodbye, Alice.

>> Yes.

>> All right. Um, that was great talking to you. I learned about a lot about um, you

you. I learned about a lot about um, you know, I've been around entrepreneurship all the way around. But I think I think what is very interesting in what you're

doing is that you push that button very high. that like that button about it's

high. that like that button about it's all about the team, not about the product, not about the um and um yeah, I think it's very brave, courageous to do

that. Um and very interesting. So, we

that. Um and very interesting. So, we

we'll find ways to invest maybe in in entrepreneurs first in the near future.

uh do you have like like small pockets or I mean is there a way to get into entrepreneurs first uh when you have like a 100k or uh it's it's all

just for big investors >> um we we always have uh you know allocation for um important people within the community so um yeah we can

>> I'm just not talking just for myself but I'm I'm just trying to understand if even for the people around Okay thank Thank you, Alice. Uh for the people, do you have anything to say?

Yeah.

>> Well, the last thing I was going to say was um uh we know that your podcast reaches, you know, many of the people that we want want to talk to. So, we

have set up a special email address that if you email gdyjoef.com.

Um Julia and Anastasia who are running the the residency in SF will um speak to everyone who emails in there. Um so, um >> yeah.

>> So, cool. Thanks for that. I think you should definitely do that. Add Alice on LinkedIn. I did that this morning. And

LinkedIn. I did that this morning. And

and uh >> just listen to the the to what you I mean to the people listening to us. I

I'm just telling them uh to the advice Alice gave herself uh earlier on. Uh and

it's never too late. I'm talking about the older ones too. Uh

thinking about Michael Bloomberg and all of these guys, but uh um just life is too short. So just

too short. So just >> life is too short. 2026 resolution. If

you're thinking about founding a company, do it.

>> Yeah, do it right now. Do it. Bye guys.

>> Bye.