Larry Williams: I Blew Up More Accounts Than You've Ever Traded. Here's What I Learned.

In this monumental episode, we have the

all-time record holder for the World Cup

Trading Championship, a record that has

lasted 38 years where the top three

global traders achieve between 200 and

400%. This trader has achieved over

11,000% in a single year.

>> The main reason traders fail is cuz they

don't have the correct knowledge. They

fall for something on the internet they

think is a winning strategy cuz the guy

shows himself with a picture of a fancy

car, fancy girl or something. You have

to have something that works. Then you

have to bring that in and you have to

work it.

>> Introducing the trading titan and

industry legend Larry Williams. A father

figure in the industry with 60 years of

trading experience being an author of 11

trading books and mentoring and guiding

generations of traders after him. In

this episode, Larry reveals exactly the

strategy that he used to take $10,000 to

over $1.1 million, but also deeply

exploring what it takes to make a

profitable strategy that stands the test

of time. And most importantly, Larry

shares the trading secrets needed to

break his world record performance.

>> People didn't believe. They thought that

there was a bogus account that I put the

winning trades in one account, losing

trades in another account. The

government came in and audited

everything at the brokerage firm, my

records. Oh, he's cheating. No, I wasn't

cheating. And the proof is

what's the favorite market? What market

you like to trade? What's the best

market to trade? Here's the best market

to trade. The one that's set up the most

right now, today. It might be gold now.

It might be silver next week. It might

be potato chips. Who knows? I'm looking

for a market that has cycles, seasonals,

commitment of trade report, accumulation

going on. I go through all the markets.

I make a list every Saturday. These

markets are set up to rally. These

markets set up to decline. Then I go to

the daily chart and say, "Okay, where

are we trendwise? Can I get a trend

change here? Significant trend change.

Where would that be?" Then I can place a

trade. I'm going to regret not asking

you this question, so I'm going to ask

it anyway. Whenever I scroll an X,

everybody's mentioning your name

constantly, always in reference to the

World Cup and how people want to

dethrone you. And there's a key figure

that is ICT. There was a viral tweet

that went around where he personally

emailed you letting you know kindly that

he's going to dethrone you.

>> Everybody wants to beat Larry Wil. You

know what?

I rarely get nervous for an episode, and

this one was an absolute honor because

not only is he a dream guest of the

show, he's actually one of those trading

legends that I've been hearing about

since I started trading over a decade

ago. because in the end he is the

all-time World Cup trading champion and

most impressively he achieved his record

in a market crash where everybody was

losing money. He's taught millions. He's

traded live for six decades where most

traders have given up. And when I got to

sit down with Larry, I was blown away by

his generosity of what he was sharing a

trading blueprint from the ground up

with the foundations of how to

understand market cycles all the way

through to finding an entry and then on

top of that money management and

psychology. So this conversation is not

just another episode. It's an absolute

trading masterclass from a verified

trading legend. And with that being

said, let's get into this episode.

Ladies and gents, we have the honor and

privilege. Larry, I I I really want to

express first of all gratitude. When we

first started the show 2 years ago, I

had a list of names that I thought would

be dream guests and and I'm I'm really

honored to be here.

when I scrolled Twitter in the beginning

uh years of my trading career, your name

would always come up obviously through

your success in your career and and you

you've left a legacy with the 11,000%

achievement that you had. You've

probably spoken about it a million

times, so we'll leave that towards the

end. Uh but getting into learning about

you, your your strategy and everything

that you believe in, something that

stood out to me is you used to be a

mechanical trader uh around technicals

and I guess that was your lawyer

background that if this then that. And

as you've evolved in your career, you've

moved away from technicals. So what is

your stance on on utilizing technicals

as a whole?

>> Well, I think there's a place for

technical analysis, but it's a it's a

well- definfined place. And to me,

technical analysis is best for

identifying the trend and a change in

trend. Uh, and there are certain

patterns that repeat that are really

consistent that can be used for shorter

term trading. But to think that

technical analysis will always predict

what's going to happen, I think is is

false, I think charts show where the

market has been, not necessarily where

the market's going to go. They're like

chicken scratches. What price did, but

what's price going to do tomorrow,

that's what I need to know. Do you use

price action in in a way of what is

happening at the moment as an execution

entry point or do you use the historical

price points to tell you a story of how

we arrived here?

>> Well, that that's a great

differentiator. A lot of people don't

see that. Um

I think markets are driven by

conditions, not charts.

>> So these conditions exist, an over

supply, under supply or a panic or

whatever the condition is, that's what

causes markets to move. The action on

the chart technical stuff is just the

emotions of the day. So to read a chart,

you need to look at the chart and say

what were the emotions today.

>> Oh, it was really bullish. Well, if it

doesn't continue that bullish tomorrow,

that's that's hey, you got the

information you need to know.

>> So I look at charts as the emotional

picture of traders

>> and looking for trend changes, of

course. So when you say emotions, are

you utilizing price to then understand

where is max pain, max greed, max fear?

Is is it related to these things? AB:

>> Absolutely. If a market closes on its

high, it's probably not going to

continue going up tomorrow. I like to

see markets, if you look at any major

market low,

>> Mhm.

>> stock or commodity, most always they

close on the low.

And at major market highs, they close on

the high.

>> But everybody's bullied. It's like, oh,

great day. I'm long. Everybody's happy.

H then it collapsed the next day that

why? Well, there were too many buyers.

>> So, it's really interesting. There's a

cycle, not a time cycle. But where that

close is in the relationship to the

range every day. The lower down you

close, the more bullish the next day

will be.

>> The higher up you close, because you're

extended, the more bearish or the

opportunity for a decline tomorrow will

be. So where the close is within the

range, if you measure that over time

periods, you'll see there's actually a

cycle. They go, "Oh, we have a lot of

low closes. Now we're going to have high

close." The mic market goes from low

closes to high closes. That's a an an

internal cycle of the market.

>> Do you believe in the traditional

schools of thought within technical

whether it's Woff theory, Elliot wave

theory, the pattern traders, there's

many there's an abundance of strategies

and they're always evolving and and new

ones coming about and you've probably in

your time seen them all. any of them

that stood out to you as worthwhile?

>> Well, you're right. There's when I was

lucky, when I started, there were only

like three theories in the market. Now,

everybody's got a computer. Everybody's

got a theory, right? So, I don't know.

Um,

the best way to prove a theory is with

trading results.

>> So, show me trading results of GAN,

>> Elliot Wave, u whatever the theory is,

show me some results. Somebody's

actually doing it. I can't find it. Mhm.

>> So the the other part is I have friends

that are lightweight people and they

swear by it. They love it. Whatever. I

don't get it. Now that doesn't mean it

doesn't work. It means it doesn't work

for me. I couldn't play basketball. I

played football in college. I could

never play basketball. I didn't have the

skills to do that. So some people's

minds

process information differently.

>> But I look at Elliot wave and I go all

this stuff. my mind. I I'm I'm not that

smart. I I I was so lucky that I didn't

take business classes. I I was always

like not the smartest guy in the room,

which means I never overthink things. I

can't overthink things. All my

intelligent friends that try to trade,

they overthink everything and they make

it wrong. So, it's it's really good not

to be too smart because you don't

overthink anything. It's like it's right

in front of you. That's what it is.

>> They're always overthinking everything.

There's kind of two sides of the

spectrum here where one side would be

every strategy works. You just have to

make it work. And then the other side

that I see is every strategy works

sometimes. And that's the key where

let's say you have a broken clock at

6:00 is correct. 6:00 a.m. 6 p.m. the

rest of the day it's not correct. And

and and people say that a lot of these

strategies work sometime to get people

involved in the market and and ever

losing. Do do you believe it's one side

or the other? No, I think you just have

to respond to what's going on. The

markets are imperfect and people try to

think it is perfect. That's the problem.

Uh I've had a lot of people with deep

mathematical backgrounds come to the

market and totally blow up. They're

trying to use math which is perfect on

an imperfect thing. And you can't make

what's imperfect perfect. Another really

good analogy. I played football in

college as I mentioned. Well, every play

in American football is designed to

score. If this guy blocks this guy, this

guy blocks that guy, the guy with the

ball will score, but they don't score in

every play, right? That's reality.

Somebody else changes the perfect play.

And that's kind of like the market.

Every trade I I put on should be a big

winner. It isn't.

>> So I, you know, I bet it like Mike Tyson

said it best.

>> He said, "Everybody has a game plan till

they get punched in the face." And it's

like the market's going to punch you in

the face a lot more than Mike Tyson

will. Going off this uh sports analogy,

you you know at the start of the game

you have a play in mind and maybe it's

going well and it's going well and then

something happens that you couldn't

forecast. And I see this with the

markets where today I make a decision

based on all the information I have

technical and fundamental. And then as

weeks go on, things change and now what

was once correct is no longer correct.

kind of linking here to time horizons

where the longer you hold a trade, the

more things that can happen in between

and therefore the degree of certainty

could go down compared to someone who's

holding a trade for an hour or two. What

is your beliefs? Because I know you are

a swing trader or a long-term hold. With

this degree of uncertainty, why not

choose to be on the on the intraday time

frames?

>> The problem with inday time trading is

purely mathematical.

You stop think about all profits in the

market are the basis of trend. If we

don't have a trend, you're not going to

make any money. Doesn't matter if it's

real estate or stocks, what it doesn't

matter. You have to have trend. So

what's the function of trend? Time.

So a day trader can be in a trade for

four hours. He can't catch any big trend

move. I can be in a trade for 10 days,

12 days, a month, six months. I can

catch a huge trend move. So I have time

is on my side as an ally. I can capture

trend moves.

>> The only way to when I did a lot of

short-term trade, if I want to make a

lot of money in a day, I had to risk a

lot.

If I want to make $10,000 in a trade

today, I've got to have on, I don't

know, five, six, seven contracts. So, if

you risk a lot, you can lose a lot.

Whereas, um, my trading, if I have a

small position and catch a big move, I

can have a lot of little losses and

still catch that one big move. I'm way

ahead of the game. So, it's it's really

there's an interesting report I just saw

over the weekend of all the successful

strategies that are around the in

real-time performance. The ones that

made the most money had the lowest

percent of accuracy.

>> The ones that made that had the least

gains had the highest percentage of

accuracy. They got every what everybody

wants like I won. I won. But you didn't

win very much. where you lost you lost a

lot. So really a tremendous insight

there into the markets.

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toot. Would you therefore say your win

rate or accuracy rate is not as

important as your risk-to-reward per

trade?

>> Well, clearly I I'm sure you have a

system that wins 95% of the time and

loses money.

>> Mhm.

>> Because you had 95 winning trades, looks

great, and then you have five trades

that blow up and lose everything that

you had. So, yeah, winning is important

because we all like to be stroked and

feel like I'm doing something good here.

>> It's hard to be right 30% of the time,

>> which a lot of the trend followers are.

I want to be more correct than that for

myself, but we all we're hardwired to be

right.

>> Mhm.

>> Dead right, unfortunately. Usually,

>> I think that gets into ego and and other

things which I want to touch on later. I

I want to bring this to the coot report

and and probably you were one of the

first people utilizing the coot.

>> I was the first

>> actually

>> the very first

>> before it was a digital thing that we

could all access. It was probably

shipped to your house and so forth and a

completely different process.

Nonetheless, I've spoken to a lot of

traders now that are utilizing the COT

report as their primary source of

information and the general consensus

that people use it with is understanding

what the big players are doing to

identify a trend and then become trend

followers and bringing in this belief of

self-fulfilling that if the big players

are all buying with serious money, the

market must go up. It seems your

approach is more contrarian to this. So,

first of all, this premise that most

people follow, would you would you agree

with it?

>> Well, let's go back to the very

beginning. Most people don't understand

the coot report. It's a report that's

issued uh every week through Tuesday. So

we know through Tuesday's action what

three players in the market did. The

small traders, little people if you

will, the institutional, the funds, fund

managers, and finally the commercial.

Well, what's a commercial? That's the

critical point. A commercial is defined

as a user or producer, a hedger. Mhm.

>> So the hedggers are not buying the

commodity, they're hedging it for their

business purposes. So you'll see a big

decline in the market and the commercial

steadily increase their long position.

But they're doing that because they're

going to take this product in demand,

take it and make buy a lot of sugar.

thing by sugar lower now than yesterday

and lower next week than today. Uh their

candy bar, which will still sell for $5

a candy bar, their cost of production is

a lot lower. So they will buy a lot of

weakness because they're actually taking

the sugar, cocoa, gold, whatever it is,

their cost of production is lower. So

they'll they'll accumulate. So you need

to think that they are accumulators.

They're not trying to time the market.

So

COT is not a timing mechanism.

>> It's a condition that says, "Oh, these

guys are heavily long or these guys are

heavily short. We're probably in the

area of a rally or decline. Doesn't mean

it's going to happen today. That's when

technical analysis comes in, but it's a

setup. And you need to really look at

these three parties. And in some

markets, as we mentioned, like in hogs

and cattle, the small traders are really

good. They're as good as the

commercials. In fact, they almost

parallel what the commercials are doing.

So,

>> you need to understand the markets as

well.

>> Is the appropriate use of the CO2 report

to use it as almost a leading indicator

to forecast what should happen?

>> Uh, I'd say a suggestive indicator that

when when and it's not the only

condition that I use, but if I have

three or four conditions, I like

valuation, I like commitment traders, I

like seasonality, I like cycles, I like

accumulation. If I had a bunch of things

then markets I got a lot better chance

of market rallying. So I would never

rely and say this one indicator is it.

There's no there's no one path to heaven

and and so it's one of the tools that I

use. It's a good tool but not a beall

end all tool.

>> So of course a lot of people use the CO2

report and I've spoken to a bunch of

them but I don't think anybody is

utilizing open positions in uh alongside

whereas it seems like that was a

cornerstone of what you did. Can you

explain the relationships of the two and

how you benefited by using both?

>> Well, there's a we talked about the

three me elements of the market.

Short-term traders, fund managers, and

commercial. There's another aspect which

is total open interest. That's all the

contracts that are open today. So, if

there's a lot of contracts open,

somebody's been doing a lot of buying or

selling. What what's been going on? So,

and if you just look at any chart, you

don't take my word for this stuff. Look,

let the charts teach you. Whenever open

interest is really high, we're most

always at a significant high point in

the market because there's a lot of

interest. Everybody's in the market.

>> And when everybody's in the market,

there's nobody left to buy, right? So

the markets come down.

>> So I want to look and see who drove open

interest up.

>> If the open the big increase in open

interest is caused by the commercials,

well that's bullish. But if the big

increase in open interest is called by

the small speculators who are usually

wrong, well that's very bearish. So open

interest is really helpful. I kind of

pull it apart and say who's driving this

market now? Who's causing the action? I

love to see open interest going way up

public way up there buying and

commercials are getting out of the

market. That's what's happening in gold

right now. Gold's going to come in start

to come down.

>> There's a condition here. The

commercials ultimately are going to be

the winners. It might take time though

why you need to use technical analysis.

So here here it seems that you're

utilizing a few confluences together to

then be not the trend is your friend and

go with the the big moves. It's rather

wait for the big move to happen and then

look for a catalyst to then get the mean

reversion.

>> Yeah. The way I sum that up the best

people whenever I lectures what's the

favorite market? What market you like to

trade? What's the best market to trade?

Like man if I if I got a dollar for

every time I heard that I would have to

trade. Here's the best market to trade.

the one that's set up the most right now

today. It's It might be gold now. It

might be silver next week. It might be

potato chips. Who knows? But I don't

have a love affair with any market. I'm

looking for a market that's that has

cycles, seasonals, commitment of trade

report, accumulation going on, a little

bit of trend change in it. That's the

market I want to trade. There's no no be

all one market. There no beall one

indicator. So I'm I'm shopping every

weekend. Uh my most my trading time is

my research time is on Saturday morning.

I go through all the markets. I make a

list every Saturday. These markets are

set up to rally. These markets set up to

decline. Then on a weekly chart, then I

go to the daily chart and say, okay, uh

where are we trendwise? Can I get a

trend change here? Significant trend

change. Where would that be? Then I can

place a trade.

So building these things together, I

just want to bounce off you what you

repeat what you've said. We're looking

for outsiz opportunities, riskreward

potential. So you will then use the coot

and open positions to find a crowded

market where everybody is on one side

and you just need a catalyst to then go

the other way. And then you're bringing

in accumulation, which is your you're

sensing this behavior shifting. How do

you read or define an accumulation?

>> Well, I would bring in accumulation.

commercials buy and sell stocks or

commodities different than the public

does.

>> Okay.

>> So years ago, maybe 35 years ago, after

I said I was the first guy to use a

trader report, I started to realize the

buying pattern of these people. So by

analyzing their 18 relationship between

today's open, high, low, close, and

tomorrow's open, high, low, close. I can

analyze those relationships and pick out

what the commercials were most likely

doing. So I have a synthetic index that

will measure when they're accumulating

in the market. But that's just one tool

again.

>> Uh but I still would want to bring in

valuation. My valuation model is like

it's it's not a timing tool. But boy

markets get overvalued and undervalued

and that's when you really want to step

in if the commercials are there and

accumulations there. I mean it's kind of

boring. You have to wait for all this

stuff.

>> Everyone's buy sell you know. You know I

want to sit back. I've had I don't know

how many millions of trades in my life.

I don't need more trades. I want a good

trade. I want a big trade. And that's

patience.

>> So here we're not actually referring to

accumulation through a technical

perspective. Let's say a woff

perspective of a zone of consolidation

before a market expansion. Are you

referring it to more these?

>> Well, you could use that if you had a

market that was conditionally set up.

Let's say fundamentally set up.

Then you can bring in woff or waves or

you astrology or you know just throw a

dart on a dart board whatever then you

could do any of that stuff but again

this is my core belief could be wrong

but my core belief is markers move for

reasons

>> they go from here to here because of a

reason so I've got to have the reasoner

then you can bring in Ouija boards if

you want to

>> to do your timing in the marketplace but

it to me it's the markets are so

conditional that I want to start was a

condition that I probably should rally.

>> They then bring in all the mumbo jumbo

of technical analysis.

>> Why do you think that at least in my

generation of traders, everybody looks

towards technicals pretty much only and

all the resources and spend all their

time on technicals whereas for you it

seems like a a bit of an afterthought.

It's just for execution and anyone will

do it. It's more about the positioning

in the market and and the setup first

and then execution later.

Oh, I remember when I was young once and

had those same thoughts. It was all

technical analysis and that it was just

like, well, think it through. Just think

about it. Markets move because of

charts. No, charts don't move markets.

There's got to be a reason why these

things move. So, and the other reason

why when I was young, I was really into

charts and young people are now. Young

people 100 years from now will be as

well. It's easy. I was like, "Oh, I can

read a chart. Well, I you know, I can't

read Hebrew. I can read English a little

bit, but it's a whole new language.

There is a way to read charts. My friend

Todd Demarc has done a great job of

breaking that down into structure. And

and charts are readable, but they don't

tell you the magnitude of the move

that's going to come. They just say

we're at a high or a low.

>> So, the magnitude again, I think comes

from conditions. Some of those

fundamental conditions, some are

technical conditions, but the market's

got to be conditional

um for me to really want to get involved

in a big way.

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firm. And with that being said, let's

get back to the episode. So naturally

when you are looking for these outsiz

returns and you're going against the

majority consensus

it all makes sense in theory but the

first alarm bell that rings in my mind

is how do you stop getting bulldozed or

catching a falling knife because of that

famous saying of the markets can remain

uh irrational longer than you can remain

solvent. Do you not fear that you're

picking tops and bottoms here?

>> Oh I don't try to pick tops and bottoms.

I'll leave that for the younger people

to do. I just want to try to get a chunk

out of the markets. You know, maybe I'll

be close to a low. Um I don't know how

many trades I've had in my life. 10

million. I think I got the low markets

twice. Just throwing darts. I should

have done better than that. So, it's an

impossibility. I'm not going to try to

catch the low. And people who say they

do, they maybe got one, they'll brag

about it, but there's no consistency in

that.

>> There's no truth in that. So, um I just

want to try to get a move in the

marketplace and uh precise timing. I I I

don't know how to do it. I'm just not

smart enough to do that.

>> It seems your beliefs on risk are pretty

different. Um, I want to sp first speak

about the World Cup performance and how

you risk there and then in general in in

your career how you risk. But what is

your relationship like to risk and and

is it something that would be one of the

more important factors considering win

rates is probably not that important.

>> Well, without risk there's no reward. So

the greater the reward, the greater the

risk. And the problem with that is if

you're going to have that high exposure

risk, you got to be really accurate.

And if you're not really accurate,

you're going to blow up in a hurry. So

if you're going to maximize your risk,

and there is a Ralph Vince has written

about the optimal F, there's an optimal

risk that you should have, but you're so

close to disaster that probably isn't

good for most people. And

there's also the emotional aspect of it

is that yeah, I can lose 30% of my

account in one trade. Most people can't

do that. They can't emotionally handle

listen losing a third of their wealth in

one trade. I Yeah, I'm not smart enough

to worry about it. I guess uh being

Norwegian helps a lot. Sometimes they're

a little slow, but um

you have to find your risk point where

you can risk that and still not go

crazy. As I mentioned, I've had six

friends commit suicide in this business.

Mhm.

>> One of them, the last one, didn't risk

all that much money, but to him it was.

And he had a success of losing trades,

he thought he just couldn't handle the

losses. And the last one was in a

soybean trade. He hadn't lost all that

much money, but he found a shotgun. So,

while there's an optimal amount of money

you should risk on a trade, it's

irrelevant.

>> What can you what risk can you handle?

At which point can you go to sleep, wake

up once or twice during the night,

that's fine. But if you can't sleep at

night, then you're risking too much.

>> Would you say this is a factor of um

nature or nurture, the tolerance to

risk?

>> Well, I don't know. But I Some people

can handle more risk. Some people are

more emotional than other people. So

that's where you have to kind of plum

the depth of your soul and find out at

what point can I really handle this

stuff.

>> Were you someone that was always headon

towards risk and could stomach it or is

this a muscle you've trained?

>> Well, I don't know if it's like you can

stomach it. It's like some of us

have so much belief in that things will

work out.

>> Optimism,

>> optimism, God will prevail, whatevers.

I've been a lot of problems in my life,

but I never worried about it. I'll get

out of this.

>> So, uh, so, but some people, they worry

about everything. Oh, I it's going to

rain today. Well, no, it's a beautiful

day. Well, it could rain today. I can't

go out today. They worry about

everything. Well, they're not going to

be very good traders. They're too

emotional. So, there's some balance

point in there where you go, I never I

always thought my life would work out.

Um, I grew up in Montana and I learned

to live off the land. I mean, I could

walk out in Montana and live the rest of

my life in a cave someplace. I know how

to survive living off the land. So,

ultimately, I don't have any fear of

life. There's no fear of, oh, I die,

whatever. Okay. But I can survive. A

country boy can survive. And so, so why

not risk something? Let's see what

happens here.

>> There's beauty in the irony that the

more willing you are to go back to zero,

the the more likely it works out because

then you can actually stomach the risk

and and see and hold trades for long

enough to see them to their potential.

>> Yeah. I think as I've gotten older now

that I'm 83, I don't risk as much as I

used to. I don't have to risk as much as

I used to, and I don't have the energy.

I saw Frank Sinatra's last concert. He

wasn't that good. I saw Muhammad Ali's

last fight. It wasn't that good. I saw

Tom Brady's last football game. I saw

Bob Dylan at a horrible concert now. So,

I know at some point just because of my

age, I have to say, you know, wait a

minute, think of Frank Sinatra. He was

way off key. People loved him. He was

great, but you know, he didn't sing real

well.

>> Are you alluding here to ending your

training career whilst you're on on top?

>> Well, I don't know if I ever been on

top. I know I have friends that have

been really on top, but uh yeah, you

want to walk off the stage ahead and

still do some things publicly. If you

can control the event at my age, that

probably will work. But to just keep

trying to just pedal to the metal all

the time, I don't have the fire. I don't

have the burn anymore. I You got a real

burn to do this stuff.

>> The reason I say this is because I

watched an inter interview of yours

about a year ago with Jason Shapiro and

you were mentioning that maybe this is

the year that you will uh retire. trying

to retire for a long time. I first tried

when I was 30. I made a million dollars

trade. Oh, great. Tried to retire after

about four weeks. I had a nice cabin in

Montana. I went out fishing every day.

Finally got the fish go. Oh, you caught

me yesterday. Put me back. It was like,

okay, catch a fish, put it back. I was

like, I got bored. I got what else am I

going to do?

>> And kind of now, I pulled way back. I

was like, well, I, you know, I don't

garden. I don't build things. All I know

is how to trade. So I I still need some

involvement in it. But the the

pressures,

you know, from 1962 forward, every day

of my life has been about the markets up

down and their pressures to that.

>> Is this a now intellectual thing or a

challenge or is it still the monetary

side?

>> Well, money always matters. You never

have enough money. I was flying back

from uh London one time with uh a lady

who was a housekeeper for the Roshchilds

and we were talking. We're first class

of course and she said Ross Child said,

"Oh, wow." Cuz I know they are all

political conspiracies and everything.

She said, "Oh, they hate politicians."

They said, and I said, "What's it like?

Great food?" Oh, look, the the

refrigerator hardly ever has anything in

it. People don't realize how they live.

I like Oh, that was a wakeup call. I'm

going to have a friend who's very

incredibly wealthy, multi

multi-billionaire. He's still trying to

make money at some point. I said, you

know what? I'm happy where I am,

>> and I don't want to build anymore.

>> That's for people that have more energy.

I I my desires right now, figure out

more about how the markets really work

in terms of cycles and maybe some trend

stuff I'm working on. So I still do a

lot of research which and still trading

>> but hopefully

somebody's going to crack this nut of

the market. You know we all try to maybe

I won't but it's heck of a challenge.

>> What do you mean by cycles? Are we

talking just accumulation expansion or

seasonality?

>> Well there's a lot of cycles in the

market. There's the cycle we mentioned

closing on lows closing on highs. That's

your natural cycle. Another natural

cycle a lot of people don't see is that

we go from large ranges to small ranges

and then we have large range, we have

small ranges. So I like to see a lot of

small ranges because then we'll have

large ranges. Large ranges where the

money's made.

>> Mhm.

>> So that's a cycle how prices trade. Then

there's a time cycle high here, low

here, high 18 days, 33 days, whatever.

So time cycles as well. And I think for

on a very long-term basis, there is some

predetermined time cycles in the market

that will have been here we know 100

years now. The the three and a half year

cycle that uh Ed Lawrence Smith wrote

about almost 100 years ago still

operates in the marketplace. So trying

to crack that code is that's a real

challenge.

>> So I have the time to do it now. that

side of things gets a little bit freaky

and also like we're entering a weird

arena numerology and astrology in the

markets. My initial reaction when I

first came across these things was like

hell no that that can't be real. And

then as I speak to more uh elder traders

specifically they are more into this

belief. I remember sharing the story

with you previously on um a guy that I

know in Dubai who's one of the

wealthiest guys there. He has one of the

most expensive houses in a private

island in Dubai. And he made his money

in textiles and then has been trading

for like 8 9 years. And his strategy is

he he has his eight gurus um from his

religion and if they all give an

alignment based on astrology, he will

then take a trade. And I had a million

and one questions for him. And

eventually he was like, "Son, I don't

know why it works, but I've got a 8-year

track record and I beat the market every

year and this is what I do. astrology,

numerology and and kind of predetermined

as you said. Can you can you hazard a

guess of what do you think is going on

here?

>> Well, I have a similar experience when I

first went to India. Somebody said, I

got introduced to the largest private

trader in India. He said, how's he

doing? He said, well, I don't know, but

he changed his ring cuz the rings had

diamond

not jewels on them. And if your luck is

good, I guess you move your ring around.

If it's not good, you So, he had moved

his ring. The jewels were in a different

position. And uh uh you have to find the

shoe that fits you. Some people can use

astrology, some people can use Elliot

wave, some people can use point and

figure, some you know I don't know some

people use maybe the committee trader

report but you have to find what fits

you and that's interesting point because

if you're looking for a good teacher

don't go to necessarily the best guy or

girl. Go to the person who you

understand you oh immediately get his

concept. That's your guru, if you will.

If you say, "Oh, well, I don't

understand this stuff." Well, don't let

him teach you. You're not going to learn

from him because you don't immediately

grasp his message.

>> So, you need to find somebody whose work

is, "Oh, yeah. I see the sense of this.

I see the logic in the way this person

thinks."

>> So, that's significant. But I I do think

that there's

there are emotional cycles of humanity

whether they're caused by the moon or

Saturn or there's a paper by the

University of Michigan and one by the

Federal Reserve system that shows

there's clearly a lunar influence stock

prices.

>> Now it's not large enough to be make any

money trading it but the and throughout

the world all major stock markets in the

world have a lunar influence but it's

very nominal. Now, maybe somebody's a

really great astrologer can take that to

another level or a a lunar person or

whatever that I don't know. But, um, you

know, the way I look at this is like

when I used to fight, when I used to

box, you go in the ring and you're going

to throw any punch you can. You're going

to use any advantage you have. And

that's in the markets. I mean, you know,

I'm in trades right now and and I

probably did some things that are

rational, but they're based on things in

my mind that I may not even recognize.

But this is a fight in there. You're

going to protect yourself at all times.

Like what you know what's going on here.

So whatever works for you works.

A lot of these strategies they seem

they're built on correlations. For

example, let's say a basic Fibonacci

where you have if you were to measure a

thousand impulses and pullbacks and you

you measure the depth of every pullback,

some of them would be a 99% pullback.

Some of them would be a very shallow 1%

pullback, but the majority would be

around the midline and you'll get a

normal distribution. And therefore, it's

not that the market is reversing because

of the Fibonacci. Rather, the Fibonacci

showcases a probabilistic zone. And you

could do that with patterns. You could

do that with a wave count. You could do

that with pretty much every technical

strategy. Is therefore looking for

correlations an appropriate approach or

should we be looking for some truth and

some causation in the market? Well,

first of all, I did the studies where we

measured all the pullbacks in the Dow

Jones Industrial Average for like

seven-year time period to see which

percentage hit was hit the most, 50%,

38%, 62%. And the highest number was

none of the Fibonacci numbers.

>> So, I think you're yeah, you have a

bell-shaped curve. You're going to have

enough there's going to be distribution

of the data. So, there's no magic

number. 50% retracement sometimes works,

sometimes it doesn't work. It's just

luck of the draw really. It is a very

random process of what markets do. And

if if you got to keep that in mind

there's a lot of randomness because news

comes in.

>> So and the other point is it correlation

or causation?

>> Yes.

>> And that's my point. I think conditions

cause markets to move. I think there is

causation. If there is a premium in

wheat, there's only one reason that

premium exists. That market is bullish.

So that's causation not correlation.

>> I want to move towards now the

experience you had with the world cup.

How how many times have you have you

participated? First of all

>> in the world cup one time.

>> Oh you have participated one time and

you achieved a world record with

11,000%. Talk me through you know

looking back what was the key takeaways

of what contributed to such a large

performance that no one has come close

towards?

>> Well my daughter came pretty close. She

took 10,000 to 110,000. She's the second

largest gain. Some of my students have

done consistently three, four, 500% a

year.

>> So, the fact that I had a great year in

the market, you know, I was an ugly year

for people around me. I think I was so

focused in the market that I probably

wasn't a very nice person to be around.

I was just like in the market.

Um, and I had high risk on every trade,

close to 30% on every trade I took.

>> So, you know, it was it was a good year

and it was a bad year. People didn't

believe. They thought that there was a

bogus account that I put the winning

trades in one account, losing trades in

another account. The government came in

and audited everything at the brokerage

firm, my records to because everybody

said, "Oh, he's cheating." No, I wasn't

cheating. And the proof is at one point

the account went to $2.2 million.

And then in the crash of 1987, it came

down to $750,000

and I traded back up to $1.1 million. So

if you just look at the records and all

the trades are someplace in the internet

they have all the trades you see I had

big winners I had big losers I you know

this is this is trading this is this is

hand to hand fighting

>> so it's it's funny to know that everyone

remembers or knows about the 11,000%

which is the 1.5 that you ended on but

your peak was about 20,000% when you

were at 2.5 million.

>> Yeah. My wife said I should have quit

there. She said that's year I lost a

million dollars cuz I went from 2.2 to

1.1. So what happened to that period?

>> It's all perspective. Well, we had the

crash of 87 and we were u short bonds or

long I can't remember which we're at a

big position in the bond market. I was

in Africa on a safari and the markets

gapped way up and we had to get out of

the bonds

>> and it was it was a huge loss and I was

a big loss but we have losses in this

business.

>> Did the monetary side hurt you or were

you more in competition mode

>> to to lose a million dollar?

>> Money.

>> Okay.

The money is like, "No, we got to get

back and trade." I mean, you can't

you can't let the market hurt you

because then you become emotional. I

have trades. I have losses, but my

losses don't have me. I see people carry

around losses on their back like a girl,

oh, I lost all this money. Yeah, forget

it. Move on. It's easier to make new

money than try to reclaim old money. I

see people suing one another over

whatever. It's a waste of money.

>> You go make more money. You made the

money. That's an optimistic um uh

positive thing to do. Trying to recover

money. It's it's a lot easier to go make

money.

>> There's that famous Ray Dalio saying

actually he's a buddy of yours which I

came to learn, but this idea that if you

lose 50% of your account, you have to

gain 100% just to get back to where you

were. when you're doing a 30% risk per

trade, two or three losses, and and

you're in such a deep hole that the

recovery might be extremely challenging.

What I want to focus on here is the idea

that let's say I have a 50% win rate. I

would love if it was win, loss, win,

loss, win, loss in a nice way that I can

absorb. The reality is there's going to

be a random distribution where I take 10

trades, five will be losses, five in a

row, and then five wins in a row. Still

50%. The distribution made it very

difficult emotionally. When you're doing

30% risk though, the chance of having

two or three losses in a row is probably

very high and therefore the risk of

blowing up the account is very high. How

did you protect yourself across a year

and many trades to not encounter a

complete blow up period?

>> Don't be wrong.

>> Elaborate, please.

If you're trading at that

that speed, if you will, that much

pressure, you can't be wrong. You got to

be really certain you have to have a

great advantage in the market which I

had at that time. The advantage doesn't

exist anymore was pit session markets

and we push it to the max. I don't know

if I risked 30% on every trade but was a

I mean you look at the contract size I

had on it was large risk and you can't

let the numbers bother you. Uh it and it

was a competition that the interesting

another side of that during that same

time I was managing money and we took an

account for a lady named Susan B.

Kringle. I'll never forget her name. She

had $60,000 in her account. She closed

it out with about half a million dollar

vaguely maybe a little bit more than

that. And then she sued me for $53

million saying that her account should

have duplicated my trading championship

account. Though her account was traded

at a different brokerage firm, da da da

da. But that was where I said, you know

what, I'm I'm not a fund manager and I

don't want this exposure. I don't know

about you, but you lose a couple $53

million lawsuits. That can hurt.

Eventually, the judge threw it out.

Said, "You can't sue for speculative

damage you made. How do I get in touch

with Williams? She made a lot of money

here."

>> But I was like, you know,

I, you know, I I fortunately have known

some of the great traders, money

managers, and they put together great

trading rooms and vehicles and raise

money. All I ever wanted to do is beat

the market. I didn't want to not a

business person. I don't know how to run

a business.

>> Um those guys do. Paul Tudtor Jones,

great trader, but a great businessman.

Thanks to Peter Borch, he captured money

management. And I think Peter's the

major reason he's been so successful.

The Campbell brothers who started out

with the same mentor I did, Bill Mian,

they they're business people. I just,

you know, I started in school as an art

major. I'm an artist. I just like to

maximize this stuff. Running a business

is never and that's it never really

that's not my strength. My strength is

looking at the markets.

>> You mentioned earlier that every trader

they're kind of taught trading 101 risk

1% per trade. You mentioned off camera

that the optimal place a trader should

be doing is 4% risk per trade. Why is

that?

>> Well, because of what you touched on

earlier. If uh let's say I have a

$100,000 account, I lose three trades in

a row at 4%. I've lost 12% of my money.

Most people can handle losing 12% of

their money and still be ready for that

fourth trade and you still get a maximum

return. At a 1% or 2%, well, you're

going to have a lot of losing trades,

but it's a long way coming back up.

>> So, if you get much over that, five 6%

you got three four losing trades, you're

blown out. Most people don't want that.

So, the optimal wealth producing number

is about 20%.

Oh,

>> but you know at that bell-shaped curve,

you're over here and your your risk of

rune is right in front of you. If you're

on this side of the bell-shaped curve,

you your risk of rune is way over here.

So somewhere, I think 4% is the optimum

for

>> maximal losses in a row that you can

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Tomorrow. A lot of traders that I've

spoken to will do dynamic sizing where

you have a high conviction play, they'll

size up and during a draw down period,

they'll size down. This side makes sense

to me that you have a high conviction

play, you want to get more out of it.

It's not something I do myself, but I

can see the wisdom in it. But the idea

of uh sizing down on a losing period for

me just screams and the reason I don't

do it is let's say I'm 10% down and now

I'm doing half a percent risk per trade.

Now I got to get so many more wins just

to get back to where I was. And

prolonged draw down is probably just as

much of a psychological burden. What is

your uh philosophy in draw down or just

modulating risk?

>> Well, so what does that tell me about

you? What you just said?

>> Probably that I can stomach risk.

>> You have confidence that you'll come

back.

>> Mhm.

>> So I know mathematically you're supposed

to cut back just like you increase as

you go up. But if you cut back at that

same rate, your point is well taken.

It's going to take a long time to get

back. So, I don't cut back like you

because I believe in the future. I

believe in Larry Williams. I I've been

through a lot of of you can't believe

the number of draw downs I've been

through in my life. Some huge ones, but

I come back. So, I go, well, I'll cut

back, but not mathematically correct

because I have confidence in me as a

trader. I'll come back.

>> So, I don't cut back as rapidly as ma a

mathematician would.

Confidence can also be heavily tied to

or trip over into ego. Is ego a serving

force in the market?

>> Is ego what?

>> A serving force is something that can

assist you if if harnessed or is it

something that is going to bring

overzealous and and blow up behavior?

>> Well, you have to have an ego to do what

we do. Um,

you have to think you can do this stuff,

but you

don't think that you're the best,

smartest, brightest guy around. Um, you

have to have something to drive you,

whatever that is, to do this. Um, but

you have to be

humble. You have to

be cautious.

Um the egotists that I know in the

marketplace always get in trouble.

They're always going to

>> either regulatory trouble or financial

trouble. Uh they promise more than they

can deliver and they lose clients

because they think they're the greatest

that there is. The the great traders, as

I mentioned earlier, my son is a

psychiatrist, trains at Johns Hopkins.

He did an interview with successful

traders. All the research before had

been done with losing traders. Jason, I

introduced him to the major guys that

are billionaires and he did personality

profiles of them. And what he found is

they one of the most interesting thing

they all had a uh a lack of

self-confidence. They had confidence but

they they were never overconfident.

They were they were humble and the

traders are buy New York, sell Chicago,

the guys blow up.

So balancing you need drive that's ego

but you also need to have some fear of

yourself.

>> Would you therefore say that a lot of

people do whatever they do in life from

a place of motivation. I have a goal I

want to achieve it. Would you say that

the highest achievers rather instead of

motivation it's running away from

something? A sense of anxiety or sense

of want to make my parents proud. An

anxiety force. Well, I think that we

need to have

what causes greatness in people is

they're upset about something and they

have to prove to the world that they're

the fastest, the smartest, the richest

or whatever. It's interesting because

maybe you should raise your kids the

wrong way. So, they all have a lot of

angst. So, they'll go out and do stuff

that, oh, Johnny, come home. You're such

a wonderful kid. Oh, that macra piece

you did is marvelous. Did it amaz shut

up, Johnny. go to your room that makes

kids want to do stuff. So, you know, and

some people are just born with angst.

They're just there.

>> Mhm.

>> But you have to be driven to do

anything, any greatness, whether it's

politics or business or medicine or

research. You've got to have some

internal drive, really want to do this.

>> And where that comes from,

sometimes from your environment.

>> It could be a breakup. It could be uh

encountering a big loss

>> or just the way you're born.

>> Mhm.

>> You know, so but you need to have that

and they need of course to have some

control over it.

>> So So you mentioned five uh points that

your son studied in successful traders.

One of them being this sense of willing

to do more and greatness is doing what

others will not. So I can see that one.

I I also read a similar study where

there was three reasons uh or common

traits amongst top CEOs and top

performers. So I'm going to mention them

and see if they correlate to the other

four that your son found. One of them

was a crippling sense of insufficiency

that they're not good enough that

they'll never be good enough and that

drives them to keep going. Another one

was a superiority complex that they

deserve more that they are better and

and I guess that pushes them to achieve

and then an extremely high stress

tolerance that and I get keeps them

pushing. Are any of these three also

common in the study you found? I think

the third one is the most important as a

trader. You have to be able to handle

emotional swings of greatness. Uh

because you're going to have days where

you make a lot of money in a day. For

whatever a lot is different for

everybody. For some people $1,000 is a

huge amount. For some people it's

nothing. But whatever that is a massive

amount of money for you. That's your

emotional quotient. And you need to be

able to not get too happy when you make

that or too sad when you lose that. So

your emotions can't fluctuate wildly,

which is that third point I think that

the the study was referencing. And

that's just so critical that you you

have to Yeah. losing trades, get a lot

of money. I lost a lot of money.

>> Do you remember anything else that stood

out from your son's study of the five

traits uh to focus on

>> all the traders were really good with

details,

>> which is my weakness. I am just

miserable. The worst detail guy in the

world. So you mentioned um the main

reason traders fail is because they

don't have patience and because you were

risking high amounts and going for high

riskreward positions. I guess the

hardest part also for you would be

amplified.

>> Well, let's let's back up. The main

reason traders fail is because they

don't have the correct knowledge.

>> Okay. Lack of edge.

>> Yeah. Lack lack of a of a winning

strategy. they they fall for something

on the internet they think as a winning

strategy because the guy shows himself

with a picture of a fancy car, fancy

girl or something. That doesn't mean the

strategy is going to work, guys. Means

nothing. So, you have to have something

that works. Then you have to bring that

in and you have to work it. Like you you

see these race car drivers, they all

have great cars. They're all, you know,

winning cars, but the driver has to be

able to drive it better than the other

driver. Mhm.

>> So, you have to have a strategy, a car

that really runs well, then you have to

try to maximize that car.

>> How have you developed the skill of

patience over time?

>> Well, I think my dad taught me patience.

Growing up in Montana, we we didn't have

a lot of stuff, so we hunted. We'd get

four or five deer every year, a couple

analopee, and we lived off the land. So,

if you want to to shoot a deer, you got

to be patient. You have to wait for him

to walk in front. Maybe we'll flush deer

down here and one guy is there. You got

to wait. A lot of waiting and just

waiting and waiting. And I noticed early

on I would rush into trades. And I think

that's probably the number one failure

of traders. They all think this is it.

This is a big trade. They got to get in.

So we get in too early. I still do that.

Am I getting the trend hasn't changed

yet? But on my trend, your mind creates

the future instead of like, well, wait a

minute. It has. Look at the chart. It's

there. But because we want to be

rewarded immediately, we try to create

the future.

>> I want to speak about this idea of

imposter syndrome. So on this US tour,

I've spoken to a lot of traders that

have 10, 20, 30, 40 years of experience.

I think you have the most uh market

experience. I'm going to ask to you

because they've all said that the

feeling of imposttor syndrome that this

will all this was all luck. This is all

going to change at some point. They said

it never goes away. Did it ever go away

for you?

the ability to trade.

>> No, this idea of like um an imposter

syndrome that everything that I've done,

even if it's a 10 years or 30 years or

50 years, that is going to come to an

end. I've been on a hot streak. This is

all luck.

>> No, it's not luck. If it was luck,

there's no way that my students would

have consistently won trading

championships.

>> Uh that that the fact I won a trading

championships immaterial in my mind, but

it doesn't prove somebody got lucky.

That's all it proves at the most maybe.

But the fact that usually the trading

championships are won by my students

means this stuff is teachable, it's

learnable, that people can do it. And I

know some people can do it better than

others. People that have trouble that

are lawyers and doctors because they

think they're so damn smart. They could

they can override the system and and

they want to argue and you can't argue

with the market. The market's going to

win that argument. Um, so some people

are more adaptable to this and there are

some doctors and lawyers that trade

well, but they have a they have a

different mindset.

>> Um, so the fact that there's consistency

of these winning people have a similar

background shows that it's not just

luck.

>> I mean, clearly was my 63rd year, 64th

year of doing this now, uh, that's a

long streak to call it luck.

>> Yes. And and I've had enough bad things

happen in my life. That's not luck. I've

had some really unlucky things, too. So,

it's it's like a like uh the guy with

McDonald's. Is that just lucky that

McDonald's has so many hamburger stands

or Starbucks has so many coffee shops?

No. They put together something.

Sometimes they do well, sometimes they

don't do as well. But there if if

there's a successful strategy, it

persists. Well, 60some years persisted.

I'm going to regret not asking you this

question, so I'm going to ask it anyway.

Um, there's a lot of you, you've created

a legacy, first of all, and with legacy

comes a lot of naysayers and a lot of

people that would use your name uh for

their own benefit. And whenever I scroll

an X, you everybody's mentioning your

name constantly. For years, I've been

seeing it always in reference to the

World Cup and how people want to

dethrone you. And there's a key figure

that is uh looking to dethrone you and

he has for many years. A gentleman named

ICT. Are you familiar with the name

first of all?

>> ITT.

>> ICT.

>> Well, there was a company here in ITT,

but I don't not that was a major

company.

>> Fair enough. He he's one of the largest

trading influencers in the world and he

uh always speaks about how he's going to

make 11,000% and and then never does.

And I think this year or last year he he

entered a 90% draw down. But there was a

viral tweet that went around where he

personally emailed you letting you know

kindly that he's going to dethrone you.

I guess that never made it to your

attention. Well, I get a lot of emails.

I'm going to beat your record. I hope I

hope you do. Congratulations. You know,

I'll shake your hand. I'll be the first

guy to welcome you because records are

made to be broken, you know. So, more

power. Everybody wants to beat Larry

Williams. You know what that what you

should do is try to make some money in

the market. Don't don't get fixed on

Larry, you know? That's an that's it's a

trading championship. Get fixed on doing

a good job yourself. But yeah, there's

when we live in Australia, there's a

great phrase there, the tall poppy

syndrome.

>> The tallest poppy in the field gets cut

off. So if you win trading

championships, you got a lot of

negative. Oh, he didn't do it. He's an

old man. He's washed up. He's 83 now. He

can't see. Can't hear very well. You

know, there's always negative stuff out

there. You can't let it bother you. It's

going to be there. Mhm.

>> The the thing that does bother me is a

number of people that say they're Larry

Williams and they're not. I've literally

had a lady call and say, "I want to

check. I've got Larry Williams wants me

to open up an account with him and and I

just wanted to check." And I said,

"Well, this is the real Larry Williams

and I don't know who you're talking to,

but it's not me. There's a lot of people

that use my name and um we try to stop

it as much as we can, but if you you

can't catch all the replies. Yeah,

>> buzzing around the hunting.

>> Looking back at your 60 plus year

career, obviously the the the milestone

that everyone sees and celebrates is the

11,000%. But I'm curious, looking back

yourself on your own career, was that

your most impressive feat or something

you're most proud of?

>> Uh not the most proud of. No. Uh I'm

most proud of my children. you know that

I'm most proud of the friends I have uh

from the markets my good friend Ralph

Vince Tom Demar Richard Joseph a

non-market friend I'm much more you know

if I look at well what have I what

little have I done with my life I' I've

been able to see the world I've been

able to get some great strong

friendships and and that happened

because I was decent at some at a skill

I have some skill level but the markets

are like a business and I did okay with

it. I could have done a lot better

frankly. But um

yeah,

I guess the of of the market stuff what

I'm pleased with, not proud of, but

pleased with is I wrote books, which

means I'll live forever.

>> Those books will be around a hundred

years from now. What did Larry really

do? You know, like Gan, what was he what

did he meant when he had a comma on that

page? You know, they're trying to

decipher messages. There's no hidden

messages in my work. Yes.

>> But but you know that's a nice thing

about writing a book. You'll you'll live

forever in that sense.

that I contributed something that I won

the Charles Dao award for uh the market

technician association paper of the year

the futures magazine honorary you know a

lot of things I've been given IFA

honorary achievement awards from most of

all the major uh technical firms have

have acknowledged my career

>> and so I'm I'm really pleased with that

that I have respect from uh people

within the industry

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futures trader. So this episode, as I

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I really wanted to create this

environment of 60 years of experience

passing the torch down to someone that

has one year of experience and going

down the generations. And because you

mentioned that you've had students that

have had success, even your daughter had

great success. Uh you you clearly have

understood not only the art itself but

also teaching the art. If you were to

give some advice on where the first

place to begin or the biggest piece of

advice, what would that look like

>> for somebody starting out? Well, again,

find somebody who you your mind is in

sync with. Maybe you understand

astrology, maybe you understand elite

wave, maybe you understand fundamentals

and and Warren Buffett, whatever you

might say. Ah, yeah, I got that. You

have that aha experience, then that's

the person you should follow. Uh, and

then you better check your own emotions

and see what your emotional point is,

how risk, how you can handle losses and

and how you can handle rewards because I

remember times I've made a lot of money

and I didn't handle that very well. I I

was too much of a jerk about that. Um,

so

and some of that comes with age. When

you're a kid, you're a jerk. I was a

jerk. I was a great jerk. Even in my old

age, I was a jerk. Um, so you have to

deal with yourself.

>> I want to now touch upon longevity. And

I've spoken to a bunch of traders, but

it's very rare to find someone who's had

30 years of experience or 40 or even 50.

Why do you think people don't last that

long in this in this game?

>> Because they lose.

You know, the their strategy didn't work

or the the emotions are so difficult.

stress.

>> There's a lot of stress to this, but

everybody has stress. I have a friend

who's he's not married, doesn't have

children, has a dog. He's under stress

all the time. I go, you got no stress.

You have no positions on.

>> Mhm.

>> But he does. And so, you have to be able

to handle stress because stress is a

killer,

>> a a physical killer. And so that's the

nice thing about not being able to

overthink things is I the stress doesn't

bother me. I I get stressed out, but not

to to the point that it's like what I

got going to do. It's like

>> you got to be able to handle stress.

>> Would you say longevity in your trading

career was just linked to overall

longevity in terms of health and

wellness?

>> Well, I think that's been part of it.

I've been able to maintain a healthy

body. I've been really careful about

that. Uh starting when I was just

turning 30, I read Adele Davis. Oh, and

I was out of shape. I'd been in great

shape and in football and when I rode

rodeo, I was in pretty pretty good

athlete. Well, marginally good athlete

and then I realized I was way out of

shape. I got to do something. And so I

started to be pay more attention to my

health and uh and have because I've seen

a lot of people that get so out of shape

or physically or mentally they can't

pull it back and I didn't want that to

happen. So I still still try to as hard

as you get older. Oh my gosh, I ran

yesterday. It's tough. I have to say

that the as I've got to know you and the

things you tell me about yourself is is

just phenomen the amount of marathons

you've done even now running 5ks or 3

miles is stuff that I challenged myself

to do and barely can. So

>> I used to run marathon pace 8 minute

pace if you put a gun to my head I

couldn't run 8minute mile now I was like

16 minutes is pretty comfortable right

now twice what I used to run full 26.2

two miles at as part of getting old and

trying to handle this getting old

because my mind thinks I'm young. I

should be running like a eight minute

pace. I can't do it.

>> So, it's a lot of frustration. Every

time I come back from running, I talk to

Louis, God, I can't believe I can't run.

But

>> that's the natural discourse of life.

But

>> what about and you accept it?

>> What about the mental side where just

like the body will um not be as it was

when it was youthful, what about the

mind or how what have you done to keep

your mind sharp? because I've spoken to

guys in their late 50s who are traders

and and you can see their sharpness has

gone.

>> Who are you? Where are we?

>> Unfortunately, I had a guest very

similar to this that unfortunately won't

be uploaded, but he he was a big fund

manager managing a huge amount of

capital. I think he must have been in

his early 60s and you could see memory

loss or short-term memory loss was

already there which is very sad to see.

But it seems like you've kept yourself

very sharp uh mentally.

>> Well, I was never very sharp to begin

with. I just maintain that same level I

think. But I think staying healthy

obviously the more oxygen you get to

your brain the the longer your brain is

going to hold up. That's pretty basic

science. So so that helps and and not

carrying this baggage of the past on

your shoulders. So people get into that

leading healthy lifestyle. You know I I

I've tried to lead a pretty good

lifestyle and it catches up with you. M

>> um I mean I have my friends that I see

and like yeah I wish but I can't tell

them they're not going to do anything

about it.

>> I want to wrap up the episode uh asking

for some fatherly advice. Uh I always

like to ask people that have had a full

life of experience and the things you

shared with me off camera of of the

crazy stories in different countries I'm

not even going to get into. But the

point here being you've lived life from

multiple angles and you've probably

experienced it all. my age and the

things that I'm chasing are probably

very similar to the audience as well.

And I'm just about to turn 30. Uh and

and I'm just crossed the 10 year mark in

my training career. But I felt hungrier

than I ever have. And I'm in go mode.

I'm in chase mode. I want to do it all.

And probably at my age, you were

similar. And now looking back, what are

the things that you wish you didn't do

or wish you would have done more of?

>> I wish I would have been a nicer person

uh when I was younger. Uh, I wish I

would have spent more time with my

family when I was younger. I didn't do a

very good job of that. Um, I was too um

too proud of myself. So, I thought that

was better than I was. I could have done

better research then. I did a lot of

research back then. We didn't have

computers. It was hard to do re real

research, but I could have done a better

job. Um, I failed at a lot of things and

and um, you just have to work through it

and you're going to have failures and

um, the big thing my father always told

me, it meant so much to me. I didn't

understand it for quite a while. He

said, Larry, you only get out of life

what you put into it. And I finally, oh,

I now I know what he means. If you

really put a lot into trading, you'll

get a lot out of trading. If you really

put a lot into learning to do whatever

it is, you're going to become a good

architect lawyer doctor plumber

welder, whatever it, if you really put a

lot into it, you're going to get a lot

out of it. And and

that meant so much to me. And I've tried

to pass that on to my children as well.

That's how to have a good life. And the

other thing we talked about a great

lesson to me. It's a lot easier to ride

the horse in the direction he's going

than

>> trying to get the horse to go where he's

not. So you guys have really knocked it

out of the park with Titans of Traders.

This horse is going in a direction. So

ride the horse there. Don't suddenly

say, "Well, we want now we want to do a

cooking show. We're so successful with

Titans of Traders. We're going to do

Titans of Cooking." No. Stay with what

you're doing. And if if the horse is

he's a good ride, stay on the horse.

>> There you go, Larry. Truly an honor.

This this was um a peak moment for our

podcasting career. Something that I look

forward to since we first started. So, I

really want to thank you for your time

and the opportunity.

>> Well, my pleasure. I hope that it means

something to somebody out there.

Everybody, good luck and good trading.

>> There we go. Barry

>> Hanada, thank you very