LAWS1052JURD7152 ALL E Session 20260311 Meeting Recording

Hi everybody. Hope you're well. Um we'll

start in a couple minutes just to give people a bit of a chance to come into the meeting. Um and so we'll have the

the meeting. Um and so we'll have the chat on there. So as we go through the session today, if you have questions, please put those in the chat. Okay,

we'll start in a couple of minutes.

Okay. Hi everybody. Um let's begin in this session looking at the case note for uh particularly for the introducing law and justice course. And this is a

course um that I uh taught for many many years. I'm quite familiar with the um

years. I'm quite familiar with the um the material in the course as well as the reasons for doing the course. Um so

I'll be sharing some of those um ideas today um as well as some hints which can help you in terms of doing this um assignment as well. Um so my name is

Dominic Fitz Simmons. I work in the uh student learning area of the university.

Um I've also taught in a number of faculties. Um and I also teach on the uh

faculties. Um and I also teach on the uh pathways program. So for students who

pathways program. So for students who are coming into university through alternative pathways where um the nuts and bolts of studying, the reading, the writing, the thinking, the speaking, the

researching that's a core thing to what we do. So um a lot of those things are

we do. So um a lot of those things are what I'll talk about trying to emphasize that to do the simple things well as an old football coach of mine once said and I think that's something I always keep

in mind that sometimes university work can seem overwhelming.

I remember the first time going into the library um and just thinking my god there are so many books here there's so much knowledge here and it feels overwhelming and I think the idea is to

uh slowly break that down and particularly in a law degree when you have a number of years that you're thinking about um this particular um uh these particular skills it takes

time you learn them as you go okay lots of surprising little faces coming up there um all Right.

So, um, also I'd like to acknowledge, um, that we're on the the Bugle people's country, uh, the Aora nation. Um, and

what's important about that is that we are also now part of that. So when we acknowledge that ongoing presence and the ongoing link to country and

recognize the elders um both of indigenous society and also the elders um of today's society what we're doing is we're saying we are part of this

tradition and we have a responsibility to do as best we can with the time we have on this planet in this community. I

think that's really important uh thing to think about as well. All right, so let's think about some of these issues.

Um, as I said, if you've got questions, I'm happy for you to put them in the chat and some of them if I can ask them directly, I will. Others, I might wait till there's a point where I can stop

for a little bit and then answer some of the questions. Um, also um but as you

the questions. Um, also um but as you can see, these are some of the things that I'm going to talk about um today.

So firstly talk about this idea of what is a case note and why do it. Okay. Um

the why do it is at one level very easy answer. You have to do it because it's

answer. You have to do it because it's part of the assessment obviously of this course. However, there's there's better

course. However, there's there's better reasons than that for doing the case note. Um because if you think about a

note. Um because if you think about a case note, it's basically a way you learn the essential skills that you need for whatever kind of law work you do.

Um, some of you will go on to work in law firms, some of you will set up your own firms, some of you will go in and out of that. Some of you will work in public affairs, um, the public service,

etc. U, um, etc. Lots of different work that happens in terms of law. Some of

you will work in non for profofit. Some

of you may not have anything to do with law formally after you finish, which is quite common uh, for people doing a law degree. U, but what you learn will be

degree. U, but what you learn will be helpful to whatever you do. I think

that's really important. Um, and I can definitely um, say that for myself. Um,

now, so the case note brings these skills together. Partly the idea of

skills together. Partly the idea of being able to read a case, being able to take that kind of text which is often written for a very specific, a very

narrow audience um, and then being able to do something with it. That's really

important because nobody reads a case note uh, reads a case of judgment for fun. it's insiders um information and so

fun. it's insiders um information and so I think that's important to be able to know how to pull it apart and see what's actually there so you feel comfortable with it. Uh a lecturer um a former

with it. Uh a lecturer um a former lecturer at the university said to me that her first job after after finishing her degree was to work with a uh a law

publishing company and she said her job for about six months was just to read the most recent cases every day. she had

to read those cases and she said that's how I got good at it because I had to do it every day. I had to find a way to to make it doable and sustainable for all that time. So that that's one of the

that time. So that that's one of the things to keep in mind. Um there's a reading there's been able to see a judgment and work out how it works.

Secondly, there's also the idea of them being able to summarize it in a form that other people will understand it.

And I think if you listen to the law report, which I highly recommend to everybody doing law is to listen to the law the law report every week on radio national

um because there you will see that often the interviews will be focused around a most recent case and often they'll have a lecture who will come in and be asked

so what was this case about which is basically a summary of the case and they do it in let's say about 15 seconds.

When you can do that, you know that you've been able to do the skill well.

But then the next question is all always, well, what does this mean? If

you like, that's a commentary about a case. And that's more in a sense that's

case. And that's more in a sense that's much more interesting to be able to then to to put that into a particular context. And we'll talk more about this,

context. And we'll talk more about this, but that's uh one of the essential jobs I think in terms of being able to do law is to always set whatever decisions are made in a particular context.

which is why in ILJ you look at you know let's say 2,000 years of history in order to understand where we're where we're up to now because that sets it into a particular context and I know that ILJ feels like it moves really

really quickly and there are so many names of people and and um uh acts of parliament and so on that you have to look at but it's trying to put them together in some form which makes all

the difference so I think that's really important also it's a being able to write about it as well not just being able to think about it being ble to write about it in a fairly narrow

um number of words. Again, really

important to be able to do that. Um and

as I said, you may never have to do a case note again as an assignment.

However, the skills you will use all the time. So, keep that in mind as you're

time. So, keep that in mind as you're doing this uh type of assignment. All

right. There's a couple of um intro things I'd like to say in terms of um what you're looking for.

Uh, and this is why I do this at the very start is just to open this up a bit. And I know there's 10,000 dot

bit. And I know there's 10,000 dot points here. Okay, exaggeration on this

points here. Okay, exaggeration on this slide. Um, but you'll be able to look at

slide. Um, but you'll be able to look at them later on the Moodle. Uh, but I think thinking about the primary and secondary sources is important. Um, and

everybody will do the legal research um, part of the course. So that will give you a lot of really important details. I

remember doing the legal research when I was first a student as well and for most students it was like well why are we why are we doing this surely it's easy you know to find these things um the further

you go in to a law degree you realize aha the legal research course is perhaps the most important course because it shows me how to find the things what are the both the highways of finding things

but what are also the shortcuts to the legitimate shortcuts finding things um what I wanted to highlight there is a secondary sources just because often

students will ask well how can I know what the context is of a is of a case where do I find that information um and as you can see here I've noted a number of different things from legal journal

articles and as we know lawyers love to write so there is heaps of academic legal journals etc that can be looked at and particularly for this particular

assignment Australian legal journals are uh really important because that's one of the focus points Um, I've got the law report there as well. Um, and also the

conversation can be quite useful as a starting point if you're if you think, oh, that's an interesting idea. I wonder

what people have talked about that convers conversation is quite useful.

It'll set it into a a more general context, an easy way to start thinking about an idea. Um, particularly if um you're coming from another country, so

you're unfamiliar with the legal and historical environment of Australia. I

think the conversation and the law report are great places to start. They

will help you kind of work out that context. Um so there's a number of

context. Um so there's a number of different ways that you can uh think about secondary sources which will help you in terms of writing the case note.

Okay. Um further on those secondary sources, number of different questions that you have to ask yourself. Um because most

research is focused in terms of law.

That's the whole point of it. It's not

like reading a novel where you think I wonder what's going to happen at the end. This is really exciting. Um it

end. This is really exciting. Um it

should never law reading should never be like that. You should know exactly what

like that. You should know exactly what you're looking for when you start. So I

think that's important. Are you reading for an overall context? Are you reading for a particular event and what's talked about that event? That should be clear from the start.

Um, so there's a number of different questions that you need to ask yourself.

And when you respond to these questions, that then allows you both to have some notes about that particular article, but it also allows you to build up your knowledge. I think that's the important

knowledge. I think that's the important part of this kind of work with secondary sources. Um, I wished I'd known about it

sources. Um, I wished I'd known about it much earlier in my studies as well. I

remember asking um, a fellow student at one time, how do you know so much that you can say stuff in class? how do you do that? And they said, look, I just

do that? And they said, look, I just find a legal journal article which talks about this area of law and it gives me an overview of things. It tells me how I think about ideas. It gives me a number

of different alternative ways of thinking about the law, etc. Um, I thought, wow, that's great. Anyway, so

that's when I started to do that. Um and

what I at the start I always used to think oh the recommended reading or articles at the end of the course outline I always thought oh that's just for the people who are really really

good who are really on top of everything. But then I realized but

everything. But then I realized but through talking with this with this friend of mine that actually the the legal journal articles were a much better way for me to understand cases and the textbooks. I think textbooks are

very hard to read because they're filled with details. they're written a lot in

with details. they're written a lot in shorthand because it needs to get to the point really quickly. Um, so I think those journal articles are really good.

Um, and if you are doing the reading of the journal articles then there's basically four bits of information really that you need. Biblioraphic

details very important so it can be located again. what the main point is

located again. what the main point is that's been said, any dot points um which are part of that argument and a couple of quotes which you can use later

in your own work. That's what you really need when you do um when you do the reading. That's what you need to take

reading. That's what you need to take away from you. But perhaps the most important of all is then add your own view. If you've taken a note on

view. If you've taken a note on something, it's always important to say, well, why did I take that note? It must

have been important for me to underline it or highlight it or put a tab there, etc. So why is that? So always add in your own notes. It makes the whole process easier later. Much more

efficient way of doing things. Um and

that might be half a page really. That's

the notes from a you know 20page article. Could be half a page in terms

article. Could be half a page in terms of making it useful for you. All right.

So there's um a couple of um things to point out. All right. Case note

point out. All right. Case note

instructions.

What you must do. So I was looking at the um the the task instructions and I noticed this. So this is what you have

noticed this. So this is what you have to do. So you have to examine relevant

to do. So you have to examine relevant course materials. So this is the

course materials. So this is the context. So whatever the case is you're

context. So whatever the case is you're looking at then think okay what have we studied in the course uh so far or what are we going to study in terms of the of

ILJ as a course? what things can I then draw on um to help me both understand the case but also to then make some comments about that case. So I think that's really important. And the at one

level the best thing about ILJ is it's broad. It's a coverage course. It tries

broad. It's a coverage course. It tries

to cover so many different things, so many different themes, which means that at some level there's always going to be something which refers to the case. It

may not be specifically referring to the case. It may be much more of a general

case. It may be much more of a general statement. And often you'll find at uni

statement. And often you'll find at uni that's the way things happen that there'll be general statements and you try and link those general statements or philosophies

um into the particular example. So the

case if you like is a particular example of something um then also explain the interactions between the themes and the case. for

making those connections, being quite specific about that. Um, and using at least two sources, and they have to be from Australian academic secondary

sources, at least two sources. And I

think the best thing about doing the research is it gives you more to say because we're only four weeks into the course. There's not a lot of information

course. There's not a lot of information that you already have to bring with you.

So, what do we do? We rely on people who have already walked that pathway before us. So looking at people who've had 10,

us. So looking at people who've had 10, 20, 30 years in the area and they've written stuff about it. So use it. The

more research I think you do, it gives you more ideas, it gives you more to say. Um, of course, this is a matter of

say. Um, of course, this is a matter of time as well. How much time you have will then dictate how much of that research that you can do. Um, so I think think about that. So, two sources is

what um at least two sources is what you need to use in your commentary because that's where you use the other sources.

We'll talk a bit more about that. All

right. So, reading cases, let's have a look at this because this is one of the key skills and it can be very frustrating I think at the start because

it's such an unfamiliar way of understanding ideas. Um, nobody is born

understanding ideas. Um, nobody is born being able to read a case, you know, let's think about it, you know, logically. Nobody is born being able to

logically. Nobody is born being able to do this. It's a skill that that we

do this. It's a skill that that we develop over time and develop because we practice a lot. Um, but also it's because you can also stand back and

think why am I doing this? How is this actually organized? So, what I want to

actually organized? So, what I want to do is just show some level of organization within this particular um form of writing. So the the the judgment as a form of writing if you think about

there's always a question there's an issue or a number of issues which need to be addressed. Okay. So what do what happens in order to get to the answer of

that? So the a at the end

that? So the a at the end there there's a process that goes through um and I've got this is a very linear process. It's not linear at all.

linear process. It's not linear at all.

It's much more iterative etc. However, just for the purposes of this um PowerPoint to make it understandable, what I've done is I've shown you three

different things that occur in this process. So cases are applied and a

process. So cases are applied and a precedent based system always means that we rely on cases which are similar enough um to be able to be used in this

particular analysis. So that that's one

particular analysis. So that that's one thing. Secondly, it might be

thing. Secondly, it might be interpreting statutes. U and again

interpreting statutes. U and again depends on the area of law. In some

areas of law, statutes are the most important thing and sometimes the only thing. In other areas of law, statutes

thing. In other areas of law, statutes are secondary to some extent to um the application of cases. Um and then the third thing is if there are legal

principles, often there are things which are perhaps not necessarily addressed directly um in a statute. um or perhaps not even

in in a case directly but a fundamental legal principles and then that or philosophies perhaps is another way of thinking about it and that can also be used and often when we talk about things

of what does justice mean sometimes those discussions come into cases depending on what the particular case is talking about and depending on the arguments that have been brought to the

case all right so that's one thing this is one way of understanding it so if you Think kind of diagrammatically. If

that's the way that you think and always think about it this way that this is where your if you like then always think this is what's actually happening here and it

will get me to uh the particular result at the end. All right. Okay. So here's

another way of thinking about um what I have there. Um

have there. Um again lots of information here. You can

come back and look at that in uh another time. I'll just give a bit of an

time. I'll just give a bit of an overview of what I what I mean by this.

So on the left hand side where you got the structure. So again think about a

the structure. So again think about a judgment um as having a number of different phases and basically the magistrate or

the court is has a different purpose for each one of those sort of those phases.

Um they're trying to show something at each of these phases. Um these are not necessarily always so clear often they're uh that they kind of roll into

one into the other but always think okay what's happening here what is the purpose of this particular fa phase so often at the start states the facts of the case that's very common nowadays in

terms of judgments what it was less common in older judgments but it's much more common now facts prior proceedings the legal issues which are raised by the

council for each party. Often there's um a summary of that.

Then it's what the court then does is then looks at previous cases and statutes and thinks about whether they're applied, followed or

distinguished. So looks at that level of

distinguished. So looks at that level of analysis of it. Uh and that's really interesting when you get into this this part legal principle to be applied then

applies that principle. Um and then you get you know who's won who's lost etc. um I think that's really important if you think about this is how it works. So

the first part if you like the voice of the court is just stating something and summarizing something. So it's not

summarizing something. So it's not really the court telling you what they think about things. It's just well this is what other people have said. This is

what's happened before. But then once it gets into the examines bit, that's when you start to get an idea of the um the evaluation being made by the court about

the arguments in front of it. So that

that's a really important bit. Often um

the application of the principles of the facts in terms of the outcome, that's the most important thing. However, in

terms of when we look at the intellectual ideas behind a case, we don't necessarily care so much about the outcome. Interestingly, obviously the

outcome. Interestingly, obviously the people involved care incredibly about it, but intellectually we're actually looking at this process of what goes in behind the thinking um is more

important. Uh so this is where it's very

important. Uh so this is where it's very different from if you're working say in Kingsford Legal Center giving advice to to people often the reasons why the the decision is made are less important the

intellectual reasons are less important than what was the outcome. So I think keep that in mind. Um

think about it the right hand side. So

you got that structure there right hand side think about reading a method of reading. Now I've got here you have to

reading. Now I've got here you have to read the case eight times which seems a bit over the top I have to say. However,

think about your reading in different ways at different times. Some of these things are really quick reading up till about step five there. Read for the legal issues

radio. That's pretty straightforward. So

radio. That's pretty straightforward. So

each time you're just highlighting a particular thing, that's what you're reading for. And then you can get to see

reading for. And then you can get to see how the the the structure of the judgment. Um, but six

judgment. Um, but six and perhaps seven are by far what's going to take you the most time. Trying

to work out why the court decided in the way they did, the legal reasoning they're they're doing. And of course, no court will ever say the ratio of this judgment is. That's not their role. They

judgment is. That's not their role. They

say, "Look, we've given you all the legal reasoning. It's up to you to work

legal reasoning. It's up to you to work out what the ratio is." Um, and we'll talk more about this because the idea of the ratio being often we talk about a

broad ratio, a narrow ratio, but that's imposed on the the case afterwards. It's

partly made up by um academics is one thing in conversation. Partly it's made up by law firms who put those really quick summaries online. Partly it's made

up by what then happens in cases after this case. they'll then see okay which

this case. they'll then see okay which bits are being used um of this case and what's going to be more important and often why a case becomes important is

different over time. It's it becomes a very different creature and you'll notice this when particularly when you look at uh negligence law um that some cases which seem pretty straightforward

and they probably were at the time then become of significant importance maybe 20 30 40 years afterwards. Uh, and

that's often how precent law um develops. Um, okay. I can see there's a

develops. Um, okay. I can see there's a question in there. Would would you like to put your question in the in the chat because that might be easier then to um

to respond to it um rather than uh rather than um over the mic. So yeah, if you've got any questions, put them into

the the chat and then we can and then I can uh give a response to that.

Okay, as I say, another way of thinking about um judgments is also to think about it in terms of the voices.

So there are different um actions which are happening. There's a

different voice if you like at different times. Uh and then you can see how this

times. Uh and then you can see how this works here that obviously summarizing something is a very different kind of action from commenting on something. If

you like the volume of the court goes up. So summarizing is fairly low volume.

up. So summarizing is fairly low volume.

Then commenting on something goes up a little bit because there's a bit more of the the court's voice there. And then

explaining how the law is interpreted goes up even higher.

and applying the law then perhaps goes up to its highest. So you can see that there are different voices that the judge is using at different times in the judgment. So keep that in mind as you're

judgment. So keep that in mind as you're working your way through um the judgment and then at the end um the stating a

result orbit etc recommendations to parliament again different kind of voice which is then used at the very uh end of the judgment but just think about it

that the court will speak with a different voice at different times and therefore you pay attention differently to that. Um, this may sound a little bit

to that. Um, this may sound a little bit confusing at the start, but once you get used to pulling apart the the judgments, you get to see um how this works in

practice.

All right. Okay. Annotating cases um is the next thing I want to talk about.

This is also part of uh your particular assignment. Again, any questions you've

assignment. Again, any questions you've got, happy for you to put them into the chat there and then I can uh respond to them. All right, the annotating

to them. All right, the annotating cases.

Um this is again bit of a process type um part of the assignment.

Okay, couple of important points and you'll have um lots of different uh suggestions be made by your lecturers or on mood etc about this process. People

will do this in different ways. At one

level this is a kind of note takingaking I suppose but it's a kind of note-taking which we want so that it is clear to somebody else not just yourself because

often the notes we take just general when we do our our work they're ones which work for us but they may not necessarily work for anybody else. So I

think that's really important part of it. If you think about um this

it. If you think about um this annotating this has a long history in terms of law in terms of lot in particularly the way that we understand law in a lot of different traditions whether in the Islamic tradition the

Jewish tradition um as well as the common law tradition. actually upon the comments people make on the sides of things which become important. How it is that we understand certain things and

literally the gloss we talk about glossing a text. It um comes from a group of uh uh academics, legal academics in the middle ages who wrote a gloss on the

side of a text and they became known as a glossatus which I've always thought would be a good name for a kind of covers band but anyway um don't think there are any. So if you

think about it, it's the way to think about these ideas um uh which help us to understand particular things. And if any of you are interested in in the idea of

you know older ancient texts and how we understand things, you'll know that that this is important way um also

thinking about um what to look for. This is important. So

key phrases. So when you're doing your annotation, think about key phrases.

Thinking about, okay, I can see a change in voice here and what is it that says to you that there's a change in voice.

Um, also thinking about it in terms of what you can use. Okay, so you can use highlights, underlines, post-it notes, etc. Writing over the top of something.

All of those things are possible to use.

Whatever kind of suits your way of making notes. Um, that that's really

making notes. Um, that that's really important. There are there are so many

important. There are there are so many different options that you can have. Um,

and here really what is the the the main thing to think about is what is interesting to you? What makes this an interesting um interesting enough point that you want to then write something

about it? That's crucial. Um, and you'll

about it? That's crucial. Um, and you'll see this yourselves if you go into um courts of law and I recommend that you um go and attend courts. You can sit up

the back at various different um courts and just you can see that people have these kinds of things written on the side of either books or notes or those huge big folders that they have etc that

everybody has their little gloss on the text or their annotations on the texts text already. Uh so it it's a it's a

text already. Uh so it it's a it's a really good skill to be um good at. So

just think about that in terms of the annotation part. Okay, let's look at the

annotation part. Okay, let's look at the case note um here for a tick. I'll just

take a moment radio. Okay, it's checking. All

right, no questions. As I said, please put any questions in the um in the chat there. All right, so case notes.

Two parts of this. There's a summary and there's the commentary. Um, as I mentioned earlier, the summary is a part where it's basically answering these, I suppose, descriptive questions is what

you would say. The what, who, when, etc. questions and those on the left hand side. Um, these are the easiest things

side. Um, these are the easiest things in comparison to find. Um, but you have to know what what uh what these details.

I think the dot points on the right hand side are a little bit trickier. there's

a little bit more intellectual work that has to go into that, but they're also the ones which will take up the most space. So, if you're thinking what's

space. So, if you're thinking what's going to take up the most space in terms of my summary part, which I reckon about 40% of the case note is summary, more or

less, um it's the legal reasoning. When

you explain what the legal reasoning is, basically you give an account of the legal reasoning of the court. How did

they go from step one to step two to steps to step three, for example? And

often they won't say that. Uh sometimes

they do. Some uh some courts are quite clear in in showing that, but others it might be there's issue one, issue two, issue three. They just go through each

issue three. They just go through each of the issues. Um and you have to work out, okay, what steps are they going from one to the next. Um often I find

the summary, most people do that uh pretty well. Um some people are better

pretty well. Um some people are better at summarizing than others. And that's

the real I think challenge here is knowing what to put leave in what to leave out u because you don't have a lot of word space here. So I think that's

important uh the decisions you make in what details are important and what details are less important. Often we

talk about in terms of relevance that there are many different details but what is more relevant to um this particular issue than for others.

Okay.

So, if we look at um a case note here, I just want to give you a bit of a sample subheadings and um just so that you can see what it looks

like. So, you can use subheadings, etc.

like. So, you can use subheadings, etc. points, that's perfectly fine. Um and

there's a few different ways, there's a few different suggestions in how you can organize this. So, this is just my

organize this. So, this is just my suggestion as a starting point. You

might find that you might change this around a bit but this is my suggestion as a starting point. Um so there you can see some facts prior proceedings etc.

the issues or the issue etc. Then the legal reasoning and here how it's organized is according to particular topics. So these are the

particular topics. So these are the topics that were um important to this particular case. So that's why they're

particular case. So that's why they're they're used as subheadings here.

that can be useful um for both yourselves and also for the reader to then know okay you've identified the important points and then you've said something about each of those um and

then ratio and over sometimes people put this um also in the legal reasoning column that's fine that there's no problem with that sometimes people do it separately and generally the ratio is

going to be maybe a couple of sentences at most that's all you really need in terms of the ratio because think about it the ratio is a way of thinking about

the legal reasoning but doing it in a couple of sentences because you don't have all the time in the world to go through all the legal reasoning. You

just want a couple of sentences in order to make it useful somewhere else. That's

its key thing of how how it can be useful somewhere else. So if a ratio is really narrow and for example it uses the specific facts of a of this specific case then

it's not going to be very useful anywhere else because then it's been determined or limited by those specific facts. So you have to make it a little

facts. So you have to make it a little bit more generaliz you have to make it more general so it can apply in other situations. However, if it's too general

situations. However, if it's too general then it loses total meaning. you know it it it can be if it can be applied everywhere then it's actually not going to be um effective. So I suppose that's

the interesting thing about making that judgment about the um how specific you make your ratio how narrow you make it and then how broad you make it um and

you can use terms like narrow and broad that's fine as well. Here you can see the commentary section and the commentary is about the context where you place this particular case in a

context. So this is where your voice

context. So this is where your voice becomes much more um easier to be to be heard or to be seen. Um and here I've

just used a couple of um subheadings from a particular um sample.

And so you can see that they tie into some of the um themes that you have in terms of the ILJ course. Doctrine of

precedent is a a topic that you talk about role of judiciary definitely and public policy etc. Abuse of power that you talk about as well but this is where

you make the choice about what it is. I

often say two to three points in the commentary is enough. Anything more than that and you don't have enough time to actually explain anything about it. So I

reckon two to three points is fine um in terms of the commentary. So think about the themes and then think about okay in the case you're looking at what are some of those themes which you can actually

use here um in setting this into a context.

Hopefully that makes sense because often what I find is people um either spend too much time in the summary so then they have very little space for the commentary or the commentary just

becomes a mirror of the legal reasoning and there's very little discussion um of the setting this case into a context and

in the commentary that's where you use the secondary sources. I think keep that in mind. That's where you use secondary

in mind. That's where you use secondary sources. The summary part, that's

sources. The summary part, that's basically going to be just referring to the case. Almost nothing else is going

the case. Almost nothing else is going to be referred to because it's just about the case. But the commentary is where you get to bring in the other sources to help you um uh make these

connections between uh the overall themes of ILJ and this particular case.

Okay.

Again, any questions, just pop them into the the chat there.

Okay, question about the introduction.

Introduction is overall um it is important. Um

important. Um and best thing about introductions is you can write them and rewrite them and rewrite them. That's the best thing

rewrite them. That's the best thing about them. Um and it's only when you've

about them. Um and it's only when you've actually finished everything that you can then come back and rewrite it. Yeah,

it's just right. It's just a road map um for the the overall um case note. This

is interesting because you do have a few options with the introduction. Um but

there should be a general there should be some kind of general statement about the the the theme or the topic etc. the overall topic of the case. Um but it

should also be a little bit specific.

For example, what points will you make in the in the commentary part? Um, I've

seen that being used as well. Um, I

think that's really important to put in just to guide the the reader. But there

are a couple of different um ways that you can approach the introduction, but don't try and put too much information in in the introduction. I think that's really important

um to think about.

Uh, okay. It's couple of All right, I'll

okay. It's couple of All right, I'll just stop you.

Yep. The slides will be on Moodle um after the after the workshop. Uh well in the next day or so. Uh

I'm not sure what I'm not sure what that question is there from Sienna.

I think that sounds like a question to ask the library to be quite honest in terms of access to sources or your legal research um

tutor. Um that might be a questionnaire.

tutor. Um that might be a questionnaire.

It might tend to be it might be a question about in terms of access to certain journals. It might be uh depend

certain journals. It might be uh depend on uh the licenses that the university has.

Yeah. Okay. Right. No worries. Um

good. Yes. Actually, important thing about um university is that it's a huge place as you all know and that there are there are certain skills that people have. There's a whole lot of things that

have. There's a whole lot of things that you have to find who the right person is. Sometimes it might take a while of

is. Sometimes it might take a while of asking the question, but generally you get there. Um I see the question when

get there. Um I see the question when there's recording. Um I think it's

there's recording. Um I think it's probably in a couple of days, maybe in a day, um the recording will be available on Moodle. Um word count requirement.

on Moodle. Um word count requirement.

Yeah, here's a good question. I think

this is all about decision- making. Um

what I might do is I'll just go and talk about the commentary part and then I'll talk about this idea of how you edit and edit well, but it's all about decision- making.

Ask at least two independent sources from Australia. Are we free to use

from Australia. Are we free to use English sources? Um I think that would

English sources? Um I think that would be a very courageous thing to do. Um

because I think the focus is on looking at Australian sources and um I think the implication is there's enough Australian sources in order to do this particular assignment. So if you use English ones,

assignment. So if you use English ones, they would have to be on top of the Australian sources and be a less important role if you do use them. Um

I think it would be yes as I say it would be courageous to do that because I think the focus is looking at um the Australian sources the Australian landscape. So if there are however if

landscape. So if there are however if there are English ones which perhaps do something um different or they cover the area differently but be very very careful because often the different

sources of the different areas will have a very different way of approaching it.

It's like um if you're looking at say constitutional law, I would suggest do not look at the American sources at all because the American Constitution obviously is significantly different from how the Australian Constitution

works. Um so the Australian sources I

works. Um so the Australian sources I think focus on those is I would is what I is what I'd say. Um can the commentary be framed in terms formulated questions?

Yeah, you could do that. I can't see a problem with that. Um just make sure you answer them if that's what you're doing.

Um, all right. So, let's have a look at the

all right. So, let's have a look at the commentary part here. Uh, again, lots of information here.

Um, what I've tried to do is just put this in terms of structure on one hand and content the other. As you see, I got 60% here. So, I kind of go for the 40 60%

here. So, I kind of go for the 40 60% rule roughly as a way of thinking about the word count. whatever it is, there should be more words in the commentary than there should be in the summary because the commentary is when you get

to show what what you know about stuff and what you're thinking about it. Um,

so if you think about the structure has sort of an essay format in terms of paragraph structure, but you're not answering a specific question as you would do in an essay. I think adds a

crucial difference there that that really narrowly focuses what you're doing. That's not the that's not how the

doing. That's not the that's not how the the commentary works. There might be themes that you're looking at or a particular theme you're addressing but it's you're not addressing a particular

question in terms of uh in terms of an essay. So but think paragraph structure

essay. So but think paragraph structure is very similar. I know that people love the peel I think approach it's called. I

mean roughly we use something similar here we think about topic sentence evidence sentences evaluation concluding sentences. So something roughly similar.

sentences. So something roughly similar.

Um well there's some other notes we'll talk about there. As I said three points I think is enough. If you have more than three points in the commentary I think it makes a very very difficult to actually then put forward your view

because you don't have enough words to deal with. Um

deal with. Um on the content side I think this is really interesting with the commentary really it's we frame it in a way so that you have to make a fair few decisions

about what you want to look at. often we

say what's significant, what's interesting, what's surprising.

Um comparative like where does it fit in terms of other decisions in this um context. Um also thinking about it in

context. Um also thinking about it in terms of as I say the the ideas. So all

of these are ones that in past years um have been used. Um these are all topics which come from um ILJ to a greater or lesser extent. They're talked about

lesser extent. They're talked about there. So there's more than enough ideas

there. So there's more than enough ideas that you could use. And look, in the end, I always think if you can't find any of these as useful, then there's always economic, political, social,

legal impacts, which sort of covers everything. So again, there it's almost

everything. So again, there it's almost there are many options. You have to then decide on which options you want to use.

My advice is generally try and make it so that those points to some degree are connected. They don't have to be, but I

connected. They don't have to be, but I think if they are connected, it makes it easier for the person who's reading to see the thread of your of your point.

All right. So, um here I just wanted to show you here some subheadings, topic sentences. Um this is an article which

sentences. Um this is an article which was co-written by Ros Dixon who's one of the lecturers um in the law faculty. Um

and so here in the the commentary law of occupiers liability so a specific area of law as part of negligence then um broader trends in the law of negligence

that goes out a bit further gets a bit broader and then community and legislation reconsidered. So then

legislation reconsidered. So then thinking about okay what's the impact the broader impact of this. So it goes from very specific to very broad. That's

you know going from specific to broad is a perfectly good way of actually doing this kind of work. Uh so keep that in mind in terms of

the case note. Um all right so what I want to do is to show a couple of examples here um

just to to help us in in terms of thinking about what's going to be useful in terms of the assessment.

Okay, let me have a look. There's a

couple of questions here.

have a quick look at.

Uh I see the question there about annotating cases using a definition or summary. Um I think yes, if you're

summary. Um I think yes, if you're getting that from somewhere else, definitely um write down where that's from. Absolutely. Uh I think mostly with

from. Absolutely. Uh I think mostly with the annotating it's probably more your voice which is more important rather than definitions or from somewhere else.

But I can see the point that sometime you might wake might want to make a note where it compares to something else. So

that's um that's fine to to look at that. Um other questions

that. Um other questions 10% Krisco 10% intro and conclusion. Uh

it might even be fewer than that actually fewer words than that but roughly think about that I suppose is one. Yeah, that's a good starting point.

one. Yeah, that's a good starting point.

But introduction more important than a conclusion. Um, keep that in mind too.

conclusion. Um, keep that in mind too.

Most writing in the like Australian legal tradition, the introduction is more important than the conclusion.

Um, three points in separate paragraphs.

Definitely. I think absolutely have you could do one paragraph, one point, but just see you don't want to have the paragraph being too long either. That

that will be a consideration to take into account there, but that that could definitely work. 1.1 paragraph

definitely work. 1.1 paragraph um case brief section. Are we required to reference? Yes, indeed.

to reference? Yes, indeed.

You certainly must reference in the case in the case brief. And almost every sentence will be will have a footnote in the case brief section. Almost every

sentence will have a footnote, but it will all come from the case. Pretty much

it will all come from the case. Um so

that's I think really important. Whereas

in the commentary there's a mixture of voices. Some of it is your voice. So

voices. Some of it is your voice. So

obviously you don't need to reference yourself. It's only when you're

yourself. It's only when you're referring to um other sources. Okay,

let me have a look here at a sample paragraph. Um okay, so here's a

a sample paragraph um which uh comes from previous case notes. Students

allowed me to to use this What's interesting about this is that okay, it is trying to say something.

There is a point here, but it's actually a little bit unsure. It's a little bit unclear about what the point is. Um,

so what I've done down the bottom is just to put some of the question marks here about what can be improved.

Um, so for example, topic sentence. Uh,

so the the point that you're trying to make in the paragraph, I strongly recommend not using evidence in the topic sentence because then what you're doing is you're giving away the meaning

to somebody else.

So always make that topic sentences, topic sentence your position, what point you want to make in the paragraph. Um,

then okay, reporting and citing of sources. We don't have much of that.

sources. We don't have much of that.

Whose voice? it's difficult to know at different times who's speaking here. Um

also some of the choice of words um is not um so clear and I'll give you an example of that

where it says no longer is the conduct of the solicister that starts to sound like a TED talk. it's where you're giving a a a kind of rhetorical

mode of speaking so that nobody can disagree with you and I think that's a real problem in terms of um this kind of work and as we know that's what AI loves to do. So if you're using my advice is

to do. So if you're using my advice is avoid using the robot because it's generally not very good and you have to go and redo the work anyway. It's like

getting a drunk friend to do your work for you. You have to go and do it again

for you. You have to go and do it again yourself anyway. So it's much better to

yourself anyway. So it's much better to do it yourself. Um, but and also the thing with the the robot as well is generalizations, huge generalizations

which are then hard to pin down to anything in particular. So I think that's so with this paragraph it's okay but um there's a lot of things that can

be improved in it. All right. So what

I've done is I've gone and edited this um so uh what I've done is I've put in the topic sentence. So then the possible change in the nature of the duties of

solicitors is an important aspect of this case. Okay. Right now I know what's

this case. Okay. Right now I know what's going to be talked about. What point

that you want to make in this paragraph.

It's really clear to me and yes definitely use first, second, third, etc. I know they say don't use it at school. Um I would say here please use

school. Um I would say here please use it because it makes it much easier for us to read and see the points that are being made. avoid the Barack kind of

being made. avoid the Barack kind of language of sentence structure that's used in like high school English. Um

because often when I read it, there's about 10 different um clauses in it and I quite get the end of and I feel tired.

I don't even know what what the point is. Um my advice is put the most

is. Um my advice is put the most important thing at the start of the sentence and then modify and qualify after that. I think it makes it much

after that. I think it makes it much easier for um people to understand what point you're trying to make. Um, as you can see here, you know, argues that, okay, that's much clearer. Okay, now I

know this is what GKA is saying. Um, and

argues that is very strong. That that

reporting verb is very strong. Um, in

academics in an academic way of writing.

If you write states that, that's okay.

It's it's neutral though. It's saying,

well, GKA said this, I'm not really making much of a comment on it. On the

other hand, if you said that GUKA claims that uh then I'm thinking okay, so Gucka said it there's something to it, but it's not very strong in terms of um the area that we're talking about. And often

if you say claims that, then you expect however to follow that in the next sentence. So I think how you use

sentence. So I think how you use reporting verbs can give a strong message to the person reading about what your sense of the importance of this evidence is. So that's really important

evidence is. So that's really important that that sense of you're evaluating by the choice of um those words as you can say there uh as we can see here just the use of because is really important and

because seems to get left out I think a lot of firstear writing in particular uh because it feels too strong but that's fine if you're saying that something was a because the cause of something else

say it just no footing around just get straight to the point um as you can see there's a couple of transition signals moreover is quite a youthful one. Often that is a matter of

youthful one. Often that is a matter of emphasis. You're on the same point but

emphasis. You're on the same point but now you're actually trying to add something more to that same point. Uh

and then a little bit later the synthesis between both Gutka and Endby.

Okay. So this is where the person writing it is now bringing in both sources. They're synthesizing the

sources. They're synthesizing the sources and that's their writing. That's

their judgment about it. Synthesizing

the sources. Um and as a result of Okay, nice. Now I know cause and effect much

nice. Now I know cause and effect much much clearer um than the general statement that that was that was there before. Um so what it what's happening

before. Um so what it what's happening here and this is really important for the question there about the how to edit. Sometimes you can edit this level

edit. Sometimes you can edit this level of paragraphs get straight to the point most important thing at the start of the sentence and then modify and qualify after. I think if your sentence goes

after. I think if your sentence goes more than four lines it's probably too long in the commentary section. I say

it's probably too long. So try and um be concise and precise. I think another way of um uh editing is also that big picture. That's why I'm saying three

picture. That's why I'm saying three points, maybe two points. That'll give

you a chance to actually talk about the points. Um that's also another important

points. Um that's also another important way of as I say keep keeping in the word count. Um another important thing is do

count. Um another important thing is do not overuse the sources. So for example here there's two sources being used.

That's actually enough in an academic paragraph. That gives you enough to work

paragraph. That gives you enough to work from. one source is not enough because

from. one source is not enough because then you tend to be a bit of a fan, you know, and say whatever that person's saying, that must be the thing. Two

sources, you can actually compare and contrast what they're saying. Um, but if you have more than two sources, it can start to get a little bit too full and

you don't have enough space for your voice to then come in because if if the source is talking, then you're not talking, so to speak. Um, so I think keep that in mind when you're actually

doing this kind of uh work with the paragraph. Um,

paragraph. Um, in the uh the version of the the the PowerPoints that I'll put that will go on to Moodle, there'll be a number of other slides where there's some examples

like this as well. Um, I might just have a quick check.

Uh, okay. For any other questions? Okay,

there's questionnaire oi pun quote directly from the case. You can do that but only do it when it's really really necessary. Um I think it's much better

necessary. Um I think it's much better to try and paraphrase and summarize in your own words but if it's a particular term um and it's a partic it's a crucial

aspect of what the court is saying. Yes,

you can use direct quotes. That's fine.

Um but the more direct quotes you use, the less control you have over the writing. it's in somebody else's

writing. it's in somebody else's writing. So, just be very um uh make the

writing. So, just be very um uh make the decision about what's going to be the most effective mix. And you might have to play around

mix. And you might have to play around with that a bit. You might have put have the quotes in then try and rewrite them if if possible. Um, but if it's a

particular uh way of expressing an idea that the the court has and it's a particularly interesting way where they're evaluating something, you can

use the um you can use direct quotes.

Yep. Uh where question about footnoting?

Yes, always. If you're paraphrasing, always footnote. If you're summarizing,

always footnote. If you're summarizing, always footnote. If you're direct

always footnote. If you're direct quoting, always footnote. So each of those three you always have to footnote.

Um, there's only three ways you can integrate somebody else's work into yours and that's the direct quoting, paraphrasing, summarizing. Each plays a

paraphrasing, summarizing. Each plays a different role with a different purpose.

My advice is try and have a mix of those, but probably mostly it's going to be paraphrasing and summarizing. And

just quoting where it is really really valuable. That's I think the the

valuable. That's I think the the important thing. Intro of the

important thing. Intro of the commentary. This is an interesting

commentary. This is an interesting question um because sometimes the intro at the start of the the case note can actually include what you would use for the intro of the commentary. Um other

times perhaps you don't include uh for for example the three points that you're going to make in the commentary. You

don't include those in the introduction at the very beginning of the case note.

You have a separate introduction at the start of the commentary. um to do that.

You you can put in, you know, what your overall theme or themes is and then what are the specific points you're going to make. But again, be very brief in that

make. But again, be very brief in that commentary, but there's a few options that you have there, I think. Um

sometimes I've seen it done really well when there's just the intro at the very start of the case note. Sometimes I've

seen it done well when they've split the intro at the start and then the intro at the start at the start of the case, the intro at the start of the commentary. Um

it's up to you. Try it out. See what

works best in terms of the work that you're doing. Um there. All right. We

you're doing. Um there. All right. We

are very close to time. Um as I said, these slides will go up uh later today. I might just do

today. I might just do uh one more thing.

Ah yes, that's right. I always have to put up the the code, the QR code um for for any any comments you have about this

uh the workshop. Um as I said, there's heaps to say actually about um case notes and what can be useful and particularly in the process, but what it looks like in terms of the structure.

So, always have a look at the what the instructions are in Moodle, see if there are any samples that you can work from.

Um, but there is a bit of a choice in terms of how you actually do the structure of the case note. And what

I've done here is I've just done the one that I think is easiest when you're starting out, you know, with a specific summary part, a specific commentary part. Um, I think that's an easier place

part. Um, I think that's an easier place to start from, but you will notice that there's a number of different options that you can make. Um, as I mentioned, I think that also paying attention to the

sentence structure is important. Um,

because you get to the point quicker. I

know that for a lot of law people, um, um, for a lot of law people, often you think, oh, it's about talking and talking and talking because lawyers love that, always talking, talking, and

talking. However, I think in this in

talking. However, I think in this in terms of this particular assignment, it's much better to get to the point quicker. But using the structure that's

quicker. But using the structure that's there is very important given the word limit. I see there's a question. Should

limit. I see there's a question. Should

we just leave an intro? Just have one intro. I I mean I think that's an

intro. I I mean I think that's an option. Have an intro at the start of

option. Have an intro at the start of the case note which includes the points you're going to make in the commentary.

I think that's that's an option as well.

Um so I think that's it. Yeah, it's

really important determining um how many words you have and what works best when you're actually doing the assignment as well. I think that's really important.

well. I think that's really important.

um to do that. Um the area that I work in, the academic skills area, uh that every student can make consultations.

You can make consultation, bring in some work that you've got and get a bit of a an outsiders perspective in terms of the structure and the writing and so on. Uh

we won't comment on the content because that's your area, your choice. Um I

think that's important. Uh oh, okay.

Leave out an intro. No, do not leave out the intro because you've been asked to do an intro. So definitely you need the intro. I think this is where you really

intro. I think this is where you really have to think about okay what's going to be relevant to include and what's what should I leave out and to be quite honest I think this is what studying law

is all is all about making judgments and the moment you make a judgment it means you reduce your options because that's the whole point of it um you reduce your options um and I think particularly for

those of you who are coming um directly from school often the there are some good things about school there's also some very difficult things about school one of them is it takes away a lot your ability to make decisions. You're kind

of told what's expected, how to write at what level, etc. Um, because it's how the whole system works in terms of HSC, etc. Hopefully here it's a bit more challenging. Yes, there are there is

challenging. Yes, there are there is advice about structure. However, a lot more is comes down to you and what decisions that you make. And in the end, I think that's what studying law is all

about is actually making decisions.

Particularly, you're making decisions.

you're making judgments based on um uh infinite sources that you're never going to be able to see everything. It's just

what's in front of you at that particular time and there is no perfect um way of doing this to be quite honest.

Um you make the decisions about what's going to work best in terms of the work that you're doing during this. Um

okay, a couple other questions. avoid

using personal pronouns. Um I don't you don't need to use personal pronouns um at all. I think that

at all. I think that um what you can do if it's a problem if you really want to make sure that your voice is there in terms of the process of something for example topic sentence

if you're not sure how to say what the main point is that you want to write about you can set up a bit of a scaffolding yourself when you're writing

and say um in this paragraph I will argue that okay set up as your scaffolding and then continue that sentence because it will be

grammatically correct because of that starting of the sentence. But then once you're satisfied with what follows that scaffolding, take away the scaffolding in the same way as when we you're uh

painting building or doing work on a building, we put up the scaffold to help us actually do it and then we take it away. So it's a similar kind of process

away. So it's a similar kind of process here. Um, so you don't have to you never

here. Um, so you don't have to you never have to write I think that because whatever follows I think that will automatically be grammatically correct.

Just write it. Um, and also you don't need to say I think that because we know that you're thinking because this is the main because you've already done the work to get there. Similarly, you don't need to write I believe that. I don't

think in academic work because it's not about belief, it's about reason. Um, and

yes, there's an interesting philosophical debate about that. I think

a fundamental level this is about the reasons why you think something is important. I think that's one of the

important. I think that's one of the most important um parts of thinking about this. Um okay, another practical

about this. Um okay, another practical question. Should we annotate all the

question. Should we annotate all the pages of the case? Um

I think that it's probably a good idea to do that. That's not a bad idea. I

think that there'll be some aspects where you will annotate more than other aspects just because of what's being written about there will be more important. So it's not equal if you know

important. So it's not equal if you know what I mean that every page has one annotation or something like that. It

will vary as you go through um the case intro and conclusion for both. You don't

need to have a conclusion for the case brief. No, conclusion just at the end. I

brief. No, conclusion just at the end. I

would say um as I mentioned, you can I I think the best advice is just having intro at the start of the case note which also includes what you were what

you will talk about in the commentary.

However, you can also have a uh a smaller intro to the commentary if that's your preferred way of doing it.

But just make sure that you're not repeating yourself. That's the most

repeating yourself. That's the most important thing. Um, so if you do have

important thing. Um, so if you do have the two intros, just make sure they're not repeated. Um, I think that but

not repeated. Um, I think that but you've got a few options there in terms of that the the intro part.

Let me just check see if any other questions here.

Okay.

All right. this actually while there's this is go we're slightly over time now but as there are still a few of you here I might want I might just

show you an example of what I'm talking about in terms of this structuring of sentences um yeah let's do

Okay, I'll just do this quickly and so people can go and have some lunch. Um,

all right. So, here you've got a question. In order to ban pornography,

question. In order to ban pornography, one must first define it, discuss. So,

question about use of law, etc. here and also definitions of law. And so here's the first um

uh if you like a draft version and that's not not bad. It's got something in it but there's a lot of things that need work in terms of this. Um so I

think that's that's important. There's a

lot of things that which aren't necessarily very good here. So this is similar to the example that I had before. So what can we do? So five easy

before. So what can we do? So five easy steps when you work when you're starting from this point. Okay, having a topic sentence. So automatically definitions

sentence. So automatically definitions of pornography are subject to negotiation and change. Okay, that makes it automatically better. And also there you had a concluding sentence. So for

the question before where someone's asking about personal pronouns here if you had scaffolding for this you say in this paragraph I will argue that's

that's just scaffolding definitions of pornography are subject to negotiation and change. Okay, that's great because

and change. Okay, that's great because it sounds now like this is the argument you're making. Then you can just take

you're making. Then you can just take away the scaffolding and then you've just got this sentence here. It's one

sentence and get straight to the point.

So I think again getting straight to the point is really important. Um

all right there was a lot of what they think etc. who and the problem there was actually not working out.

I'll just go back and just show the earlier version. So here where it says

earlier version. So here where it says what the definer thinks and what they think they that they should think they may feel obliged they also reflect. So

there's a lot of they here which gets very confusing. Who is it referring to?

very confusing. Who is it referring to?

So the reader has to do much more work and if the reader is doing the work that's not good for you as a writer. So

academic style is important here. So

rather than between what the definer thinks etc. It's between individual and social standards. There you go. Straight

social standards. There you go. Straight

to the point makes sense. And the

importance here I suppose is it's a shift from u more from verbs if you like to more nouns. Nominalization is the term given to it. Um it's also more specific

um and in in some ways it's a shift to more Latin Greekbased writing because how we speak is mostly old German really the style how we speak but how we write

is mostly Latin and uh Greekbased.

Nobody actually speaks the way we write academically. That's really important.

academically. That's really important.

Nobody speaks that way. It's a weird dialect which is only for for writing.

Um but as you can see all the have gone and we now can see quite clearly what the point is here. So that's one thing.

Okay. I can see question there in this paragraph argued. I'd say don't need to

paragraph argued. I'd say don't need to do it. I would say if you if you're

do it. I would say if you if you're looking at um putting forward words, don't use those words. I think keep keeping out just go straight to the points. Go or or secondly and then just

points. Go or or secondly and then just say what the point is. I don't think you need that argue. And as I said, it's not an essay where you have a thesis

statement responding to a specific question.

I mean, it does ask you what's the overall point you're trying to make, but that's not a thesis statement responding to a specific question. So I think keep that in mind in terms of the difference

here between um overall what an essay is um and what case not commentary is uh the commentary should help the person reading it know the context of the

particular case that's why commentary is there uh let me check any other questions here all right so I spoke before about intro

and conclusion for both sections Uh okay.

Right. Um, okay. Next one. Next thing.

So, from that first one, all that's been put here is some sources. Automatically

that looks better. So, from my perspective of being a market, okay, that automatically looks better just by knowing where they've actually come from. uh and this is Harvard system

from. uh and this is Harvard system which is different from the AGLC that that you'll be using but just to show you that one important thing too is the difference between saying um here as

Thomas argues um is different from when you have the just having the uh the name in the brackets the end of the sentence which the equivalent of the footnote um if you

put the name of the author in the text then it it implies there's a contest or debate about ideas and you want that because it shows shows you that there is something critical happening here. Um,

but if you just have the uh statement and then the footnote, the implication is everyone agrees with this. There's no contest. And that's

this. There's no contest. And that's

really strange in academic terms because we love a contest in law. We're always

talking about different interpretations etc. So my advice is to definitely directly put the names of the authors there. You know, Sanrock argues

authors there. You know, Sanrock argues that. However, Vines claims um a

that. However, Vines claims um a different perspective. The moment you do

different perspective. The moment you do that's not only are you showing there's a contest, but you're playing yourself into the contest as well. So, that I

think is really important um trick to to thinking about academic writing.

All right. So, there's some evidence there. Um

there. Um next one. Okay. as I said having a

next one. Okay. as I said having a discussion even some critics have argued okay it's not great because I would say okay who are the critics um always

better to name names um but at least it's saying okay let's show that there are different discussions there is a contest of ideas here that's one of the most important we talk about

thinking critically so not only is it putting in the sources but then showing that there's a contest of ideas that's important so each of these steps that I've just just shown these 1 two three

four steps that can automatically um uh improve what you're writing and also I think it helps you to be much more specific and get to the point quickly

and then we get to the after paragraph which as you can see has all these elements in it then now um

it gives you who the um the various sources are it gives you um the particular um

details. So there's both summarizing

details. So there's both summarizing um paraphrasing uh and ah there should be a direct quote there isn't um and also that use of

things like however, therefore etc. All those words which are the intellectual glue they bind ideas together and you're the one binding the ideas. I think

that's really important. Think about

therefore, however, but nevertheless, firstly, secondly, thirdly, they help you to bind ideas together so that we as the reader can understand how you're doing that. If you do not use those, if

doing that. If you do not use those, if you do not use firstly, secondly, thirdly, to me, it will then just look random the way that you've organized

things. So, in a sense, you have to show

things. So, in a sense, you have to show what the connection is between things.

What's the level of value by doing that?

um particularly this kind of academic writing. Australian academic writing is

writing. Australian academic writing is um very uh explicit in that sense. It's very

much direct telling exactly what to do.

I studied in Germany for a couple of years and they have a very different style of writing. They actually don't like this style of writing because they they say what do you think I'm an idiot or something? Of course, I can make up

or something? Of course, I can make up my own mind about how things are connected. So the writer does less work

connected. So the writer does less work there. The writer does more work here.

there. The writer does more work here.

uh and the reader does less work. So I

think that's important to to keep in mind uh in terms of different styles of academic writing in different places as well. Similarly, the American style of

well. Similarly, the American style of academic writing is much more compositional. Um so it it it looks a

compositional. Um so it it it looks a little bit more narratively based than what we do here. Um yeah, that it's quite interesting. There's lots of

quite interesting. There's lots of different styles. Another time, another

different styles. Another time, another place I'll go into a lot of details about that. Anyway, um if there are any

about that. Anyway, um if there are any final questions and then I can I'll leave you and you can go and have some lunch or get on with the working on your

case note.

All right, cool. Thanks for that. Uh

thanks for attending. Thanks for your comments and questions there in the chat. Hopefully that was useful for you.

chat. Hopefully that was useful for you.

As I said, the slides will be up on Moodle I think in a day or so. The um

uh the power the recording will also be available as well, so you can get to see all the bloopers etc. I should do a bloopers version this one time. Anyway,

great. Thanks very much and um best of wishes.